Slashdot Mirror


Focusing On Tech Alone, You Miss How Autonomous Driving Will Change Society

Hallie Siegel writes The way that consumers interact with and operate cars will transform most functions in commuting, travel, communications, car ownership, and many other as-yet unknown ways. Dieter Zetsche, chairman of Daimler and head of Mercedes-Benz Cars, said at this year's CES in Las Vegas: "Anyone who focuses solely on the technology has not yet grasped how autonomous driving will change our society." Robotics watcher Frank Tobe writes about how imagination is overtaking the ethics debate around autonomous cars."

19 of 477 comments (clear)

  1. What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Bottom line: we probably cannot imagine all the implications and collateral effects driverless cars will cause beginning early in 2020 for top-end and early adopters and progressively more widespread year after year until mid 2030 when these cars will be our major form of transportation.

    That's it? That's your substance? Hell, why not try? Here are my own guesses:

    • Insurance companies will struggle to adjust. You know all those annoying GEICO commercials? Prepare to watch a lot less of them and if you're in the auto insurance business, now would be a good time to diversify. And if you're not in that business, prepare to enjoy not having to pay monthly on auto insurance. Huge plus for the economy.
    • Real Estate prices will fluctuate away from metropolises. Oh, 1,000 sq ft in a downtown townhouse is $1.5 million dollars? Or a nice house on 100 acres of land is $125,000 but it's one hour away from downtown? Yeah, I think I'll just take that hour drive twice a day and just watch netflix on my phone or read on my kindle or code on my laptop or even just sleep it.
    • Drunk driving/texting while driving/distracted driving will become ailments of the past. Lose your license? Afraid of going home from happy hour "buzzed"? Just buy an autonomous car. A lot less accidents too -- huge plus for society.
    • Organ sources will dry up. A lot of organs come from car & motorcycle accidents. Morbid but true. Need to up our game on printing organs in order to prepare for this.
    • If idiots connect their cars or the underlying system to the internet, people will end up at hacked destinations.
    • Parking will become a bigger business -- especially garages that work hand in hand with autonomous vehicles.

    These are all, of course, many years off. But it is starting to look more and more inevitable.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by shilly · · Score: 4, Informative

      I couldn't agree more re the vapidity. You only have to look back to old Heinlein stories to see someone making an actual content-filled prediction about the social impact of driverless cars (see for example, Between Planets)

    2. Re:What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by Dracolytch · · Score: 4, Informative

      The handicapped, elderly, and young who are currently limited in terms of autonomy will have much better access to the world outside their home.
      Every car could become an ambulance
      Car ownership will take on looser terms: If I'm going to bed now, and won't need the car until morning, why can't it act as a taxi? If many people have idle cars acting as taxis, why do I need a car?
      What effect with this have on mass transit?

      --
      This sig has been enciphered with a one-time pad. It could say almost anything.
    3. Re:What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agree too, but you've missed a couple factors that should be considered.

      1. All the "You can have my steering wheel when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers!" people. America's love affair with the automobile is in part about "freedom," and despite some people, esp. in big cities moving away from private ownership of automobiles, there are a LOT of older folks out there who will NEVER trust a machine's judgement over their own. A car's maneuvering system could see farther, wider, and in more detail than I can, but I can tell what things I'm seeing ARE better than a machine. The human visual cortex can interpret something like a couple quintillion polygons per second, blowing every GPU ever built out of the water. Even if most of those polygons are determined to be irrelevant and never passed along to the cerebral cortex... photons reflecting off the objects (or passing through or being emitted by them,) are still passed into the retina and still got sent across the optic ciasma, so they count...

      2. Not every place everyone will want to go is paved or mapped, and mapping is not 100% accurate, so you still need periodic human intervention, or you have an arbitrarily limited car, that many people will be unlikely to accept.

      3. What happens when every pedestrian, cyclist, etc., knows that pretty much every car on the road, being automated, will run itself into a tree rather than hit you? How far is the urge to ride down the street on a skateboard and whack cars with sticks or newspapers as a prank to set off car alarms from the urge to jump in front of a car knowing you can force it to stop?

      4. Conversely, how long from that point will high-end cars, built for paranoids and assholes are programmed NOT to stop for pedestrians, etc., but instead to knock them out of the way with a directed blast of sound or wind? Or a 'pain beam'? Or a water-cannon?

      5. What happens when someone roots his car (or someone hacks cars) and directs them to run over pedestrians, or malware enters the car's systems and causes them to slam into each-other at freeway speeds?

      6. How long until advertising takes the form of a car that's cheaper for you to own, but when you tell it to take you to Chili's, instead takes you to Apple-Bee's because Apple-Bee's is a partner of whoever made your car, and Chili's ISN'T? Or you tell your car to take you to Wal-Mart and it drives you to Target instead? ETC. ETC. ETC.? If you thought multi-colored blinking popup ads were annoying, wait until a destination POPS UP IN FRONT OF YOUR CAR!

      7. Or how about when you want to go to the rally outside _______'s headquarters and your car takes you to a "black-site" instead, where you're locked up without trial for a few days, then released when it's too late for you to do anything, like join the protest that's now over, or VOTE in the election...

      Here's the thing. People wetting their pants over the thought of Sky Net sending Terminators to kill us but feel relief at the unlikelihood of that scenario playing out in the near-term because it'll be a while yet before a machine with anything resembling the human capacity for malfeasance develops, are ignoring the fact that you don't NEED an artificial intelligence to misuse the trust we place and increasingly continue to place in machines. Human beings are perfectly capable of abusing and misusing that information provided by relatively simple, dumb-machines.

      You know how freaked everyone gets because 150 people put their lives in the hands of pilots and copilots to go from A to B? What happens when millions of people entrust their lives to MACHINES to do that job on highways and byways, implicitly putting themselves in the hands of the people who own the technology?

      In any case, I'll keep my goddamned steering wheel, thank you very much. I'm old enough to remember when there were very few computers. I have handled punched cards, I have used 8", 5.25", and 3.5" floppy disks, and remember the excitement that the new medium of CD-ROM's brought to

    4. Re: What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by websensei · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Rush hour" will become an anachronistic misnomer, as driverless cars could move at open freeway speeds, even with (increasingly rare) high traffic density. This will make its first appearance in formerly-HOV lanes. I imagine watching cars travelling 65mph -- even when they're nearly bumper-to-bumper -- will make many logjammed drivers in the human/slow lanes think twice about their insistence on being in "control".

      --

      La via sola al paradiso incommincia nel inferno
    5. Re: What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by dargaud · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Particularly since there will be empty cars driving around to reach their next 'driver' instead of being parked. Either by being full on autonomous taxis, or shared between a number of individuals (like one car per family, once the father has reached work he sends the car back home so that the mother can take the kid to kindergarden, etc). Also, instead of paying 40$/hour to park the car download, tell it to drive around slowly until your meeting/dinner is over; that's not going to be a good thing for traffic.

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    6. Re:What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I doubt the parking bit. Many people will choose to use a driverless cab

      Yes, many people will choose not to own a car. But even if that doesn't happen, parking problems will go way down. SDCs can park themselves, after the people are out. So they can park within inches of each other on either side, and they have cameras instead of side mirrors, so that saves another 6 inches on either side. They can also park head-to-tail, an inch apart, three or four cars deep. When a car is summoned, it requests the other cars to move out of the way. Finally, the lanes through the lot can be much narrower, since SDCs can navigate much more accurately. When you combine all of these factors, the capacity of existing parking lots can easily be doubled, and maybe tripled.

    7. Re: What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by rogoshen1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      why is it when someone on this site makes a comment about technology not being a slam-dunk, sure thing, utopia producing panacea of goodness -- the first instinct is to call them 'old fashioned'?

      My money would be on in the next 40 years cars will mostly be electric/hybrid, but the driver-less stuff will be relegated to delivery vehicles and DUI offenders. Not everyone is a tech evangelist, and while there's a huge selection bias on a tech website -- it's a bit premature to extrapolate that to the general public.

    8. Re: What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by xaxa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I wonder about uber driverless. Without a person, what prevents people from trashing the car?

      The same thing that prevents people trashing buses, or train carriages. Most people simply don't.

      More than the train/bus, there's probably a record of exactly who hired the car, and before/during/after CCTV pictures can be recorded.

    9. Re: What an Embarrassingly Vapid Article by schlachter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This will require a minimum requirement for braking and acceleration capabilities...because in that long chain of cars going bumper to bumper at 60 mph...its the slowest braking car that will determine the speed and bumper to bumper distance of a large number of cars behind it.

      Think ISO standards for braking and acceleration capabilities.

      Think, "this lane is accessible to all cars that implement the AMR (Acceleration Minimum Requirements) 2.0 standard"

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
  2. The real missed question by gatkinso · · Score: 5, Informative

    Why do we *need* to travel at all? Autonomous transportation in many cases is simply very inefficient teleconferencing. At least this is true in business.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    1. Re:The real missed question by Lumpy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mostly because of idiot bosses that think they need to be able to walk up to you and poke you with a stick to make sure you are working.

      A large number of jobs can be done at home over the network. Maybe someday we will start getting Executives and managers at businesses that have IQ's over 80 that will start allowing it or even require it.

      Videoconferencing is trivial, always on high speed internet is getting to be common. There is zero reason for many people to go and sit in a cubicle for 8 hours a day to do work they can easily do at home.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:The real missed question by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why do we *need* to travel at all? Autonomous transportation in many cases is simply very inefficient teleconferencing. At least this is true in business.

      Because sometimes there's real value in being there. Sure, most of the information you get from a conference or meeting could be found online, or you could watch a seminar remotely, but you don't necessarily get the same experience and make the same contacts that you would from a face-to-face meeting. Often times, you end up learning things at a conference that you didn't even know you were looking for.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    3. Re:The real missed question by Discgolferusa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Mostly because of idiot bosses that think they need to be able to walk up to you and poke you with a stick to make sure you are working.

      A large number of jobs can be done at home over the network. Maybe someday we will start getting Executives and managers at businesses that have IQ's over 80 that will start allowing it or even require it.

      While true a large number of jobs can be done over the network with little to no problem, that isn't the concern. Many people do not possess the self discipline necessary to work in an environment with that many distractions. The temptation to not actually work is too great. So the easiest solution for companies is to force people to come into the office.

    4. Re:The real missed question by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a software developer I like coming into my office to work.
      Having other people just walk over and say have you seen this happen before? Or walk over to the hardware lab and say "Can you check the sensor", is very useful.
      Plus I like most of my co-workers and enjoy working with them.
      I have had jobs where that is not true but frankly not being in the office would not have make the situation any better.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  3. Most people cannot telecommute by sjbe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why do we *need* to travel at all?

    Because lots of things have to be done in person. I run a manufacturing plant. I can assure you that you cannot run a manufacturing plant from your bedroom at home. It's a little hard to run a restaurant while telecommuting. Good luck operating a retail store while telecommuting. Farming? Mining? Medicine? Freight delivery? Most jobs aren't really compatible with telecommuting if you actually give it a moment's thought.

    Autonomous transportation in many cases is simply very inefficient teleconferencing. At least this is true in business.

    I assure you that that is quite false in the majority of cases. Autonomous transportation is basically like a very small flexible train system that does not require tracks. It's like riding the bus - someone else is doing the driving but you still have to get there for a reason.

  4. Um... How will it change society? by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not a single word in the article about HOW an autonomous car will change our society in a tangible way. You can safely skip TFA, because it actually says nothing about what the title implies. Instead, the author seems to needlessly hand-wring about the "ethics" of these cars.

    These cars won't really deal with ethics, per se. Rather, they'll have goals and rules, and these will essentially encapsulate the ethics in an indirect manner. I'm betting these cars will have reasonably simple priorities for safety, like (I just came up with this on the spot, so don't get hung up on the details):

    1) Never knowingly drive the car off the road for any reason.
    2) Keep the car in the correct lane unless a collision is unavoidable, otherwise allow emergency lane changes.
    3) If necessary, allow movement across the entire roadway, but only if it is otherwise unoccupied and can't cause a collision.
    4) If all else fails, slow down or stop and tell the human to make sense of the situation

    The trolly-switch dilemma that people keep bringing up is so ridiculously contrived that I just don't see it having a bearing on the reality of day to day driving and safety of the vehicle for a couple of reasons.

    First, autonomous cars are much less likely to be surprised by someone cutting in front of them or other obstacles. They don't have blind spots, and their reaction times are many thousands of times faster than a human. As such, the choice of "hit A or B" is much less likely to come up in the first place, because the car would have been following a safe distance behind and would have hit the brakes at the first sign of trouble. So in the vast majority of cases, the car starts braking before the human occupant even realizes there's a problem. No accident at all, or a survivable collision at 10 or 20 mph instead of 70.

    Second, in the rare situation an accident is inevitable, the priorities will be straightforward: protect the occupants of the car first within the constraints of keeping the car on the road, and if possible, in it's own lane. That simply means avoiding collisions if possible. If that's not possible, the car will simply attempt to brake as much as possible before the collision to protect the occupants. There will likely be no "swerve to miss the human and hit the bus instead". The car will brake as hard as physically possible, but if it can't safely swerve, it really has no choice but to continue forward in the safest path for its occupants.

    I think people are making more of this than is actually necessary by constructing ridiculously overly-complicated and completely hypothetical scenarios and saying "how would an autonomous car deal with this?" Humans are almost never put into a situation where they have to make such a complicated choice in a split second. I'm not sure why we expect our machines to properly make choices that *we* could never make it in real time either. They're going to be better than humans in almost all situations that really matter, such as concentration, navigation, and reaction time in emergencies.

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  5. Re:Supply side tomfoolery by Kjella · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Carpooling is a pain because you don't have the car with you during the day. If something unexpected happens and it isn't you driving that day, you are in trouble. With driverless cabs this problem disappears -- you will most likely have to accept a delay when you request an unscheduled cab and possibly a higher price, but you are not stuck.

    You forgot the most annoying part about car pooling, you must be on schedule like a clockwork. At work I have to be there certain "core hours" of the day, while mornings and evenings I have a bit of flexibility as long as I get my total hours done. Can't find your keys in the morning? Need to leave an hour early? Work an hour late? Should have stopped to buy milk on the way home? Heck, even those who take the bus can mostly catch one leaving half an hour later. You get the door-to-door service, but it's the least flexible solution. If any of you are the least bit sloppy and unorganized, chances are big they'll either be annoyed with you or you'll be annoyed with them. It's not all of my friends I'd carpool with, to put it that way.

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  6. Mass unemployment by xtal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The #1 job for men in the United States is.. driving a truck.

    It pays well.

    Those two things make it ripe for disruption as there is a clear economic incentive; autonomous trucks don't need to stop. It's not clear even if you'd ever have to turn them off, save for regular maintenance. That is a huge economic motivator.

    Trucks also follow well defined routes that are easier for the autonomous systems to deal with right now.

    The Teamsters will of course freak out; but change, it is a comin'.

    --
    ..don't panic