Slashdot Mirror
Phone App That Watches Your Driving Habits Leads To Privacy Concerns
Toshito writes Desjardins Insurance has launched a smartphone app that tracks driver behaviour in return for the promise of substantial savings on car insurance. Two years ago, Desjardins began offering a telematic device that plugs into a vehicle's diagnostic port, to track acceleration, hard braking and the time of day you were driving, for instance. Now, there's no plug-in device required. With Desjardins's new Ajusto app, all you need is your smartphone. But this comes with great concerns over privacy, and problems have been reported where the device was logging data when the user was riding a bus instead of driving his own car.
Those people who willingly plug in such a device into their car. Everyone speeds. Not every stop sign is adhered to super cleanly, rather than a rolling stop. Seems like an invitation to get nitpicked.
And this phone app seems like it would be a battery hog.
No kidding. It's tracking you constantly when you're in your car, and in some cases, even when you're not. You've sold your personal data (your current location) for a tiny bit of lucre. Why people might think this ISN'T a walking, talking privacy breach of the first order is beyond me.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
where's my flying car?
As a hypothetical member of the insurance industry, I just wanted to point out that those of you who are concerned will be drowned out by those of you who want to save a buck and have nothing to hide.
This will start out as a voluntary discount, but as our competitors start to adopt the same strategy, we will save costs and demonstrate profitability to our shareholders by raising the cost of opting-out significantly, as will the industry as a whole, until it becomes enough of a financial burden that the few of you who elect to pay outrageously for your "privacy" will be stigmatized as criminals and worse. At that point we will drop the option to not be tracked.
That begins phase 2, which will offer substantial discounts to your insurance (subsidized by those who opt-out) in exchange for sellin- I mean sharing- your driving habits and destinations to advertisers and other third parties. As as our competitors start to adopt the same strategy, we will save costs by raising the cost of opting-out significantly, as will the industry as a whole, until it becomes enough of a financial burden that the few of you who elect to pay outrageously for your "privacy" will be stigmatized as criminals and worse. At that point we will drop the option to not have your location shared with marketers and other institutions we deem appropriate.
Phase 3 involves pre-paid, members only, traffic light priority services and exclusive triple-diamond private HOV lanes, but we're still negotiating that with municipal governments.
First it's optional, next thing you know, it's mandatory. Just like secure soot and anything related to treacherous computer.
Don your shock-collar, citizen. It's for your own good.
What if you just have your phone turned off when you drive, or don't take it with you in the first place? Maybe the insurance savings are even substantial enough that you can get a second phone and only take the phone with this app on short trips and drive on those trips very carefully. When you want to do your street racing, you bring the other phone.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
eh, secure boot.. typo.
Don't sign up... Who doesn't understand this?
In this case there isn't any privacy concerns for me. I won't sign up, load or run the application.
Now it would be a totally different story if the point of the application was totally unrelated to where you are when and how you get there. It's these applications which many people don't realize are providing tracking information to others. Or, for instance the practice of retailers who track your phone down to the inch as you walk though their store, then tie that to your "discount card" or some other means of tracking what you looked at, what you purchased and all sorts of data they can mine out of their collections. THAT is the kind of thing that worries me, where I'm being tracked and I have no way of knowing it and didn't agree to it....
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Isn't the 'app' development process to the point where you don't even consider shipping until you've built at least one egregious privacy issue into your product?
There is a situation where this sort of this is worth, and the base concept is sound (cheaper premiums to verifiably safer drivers).
You'd need a not for profit organisation to actually collect the data. The insurance industry should fund it but have no direct control over it. The organisation would then set out stringent privacy controls and only give the insurance companies a score and no real data.
And, yes, that includes the EU and US, under the International Data Treaties you signed.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
There is a situation where this sort of this is worth, and the base concept is sound (cheaper premiums to verifiably safer drivers).
You'd need a not for profit organisation to actually collect the data. The insurance industry should fund it but have no direct control over it. The organisation would then set out stringent privacy controls and only give the insurance companies a score and no real data.
That sounds like asking for a non-profit (because they are not corruptible?) version of google.
I'm not sure what is exactly your point. If you have a cell phone, even a dumb phone, you are already being track at least by your phone company (which will give the data to the government if asked). Sorry, but you already lost your "privacy". So what is your point?
what planet are you from?
this database would be bent over and f*cked from all sides, the gov't, the insurance industry and anybody else who could make a buck from accessing this data.
In particular, the gov't would need unfettered access to it, because they heard a terrorist once rode in a car. And also a child-molester.
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Your driving performance is just another performance, like singing or dancing. It doesn't matter than some company has created a device to record it. The copyright on the data that records the performance belongs to the performer. So any data collected by a company by an app belongs to the user, not the developer of the app.
My rates should drop drastically. I NEVER go anywhere (according to the app on my un-utilized phone).
eh, secure boot.. typo.
What! Insecure soot? We must do something! Think of the children!
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
You'd need a not for profit organisation to actually collect the data. The insurance industry should fund it but have no direct control over it. The organisation would then set out stringent privacy controls and only give the insurance companies a score and no real data.
Until the police want the information, or your in an accident and Marcus and Mack subpoena your data after a car accident. Those guys mean business!
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
can they do *that*.. i mean, planes and perhaps trains... but a bus? a passenger in a car? that's a pretty bold claim. you cannot, just from movement of the phone, determine which seat you're sitting in in a car.. and in many places, car and bus movement patterns are similar, too. where's my shovel, the bullshit this company is spewing is getting pretty deep.
Have gnu, will travel.
I'm sure /. is all familiar with, âoeThey that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.â âThose Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.â and it's tempting to apply it here.
However I would disagree. The act of operating a 2 ton vehicle at fatal velocities is not unlike the act of pointing a loaded gun at people in public, but promising not to shoot anyone. Now imagine that hundreds of millions of people do this, and hundreds of thousands screw up every year and injure or kill someone, generating billions upon billions in insurance claims.
If we treated cars like guns, keeping them securely locked in the garage at all times except a life or death emergency, and on every usage got law enforcement involved to investigate, then you could argue that you have a right to privacy as a car owner, just as a gun owner might. But once you endanger the public, whether by waving your gun around, or waving your car around, I would argue you give up that right.
If you don't want anyone to care what you do with your vehicle, just choose a less dangerous vehicle. Like your feet, or a bike. Then no one will much care what you do, where you go, or how you operate it.
Is it just me, or is 25% off car insurance not worthwhile for all the loss of privacy? I would only consider something like this if the savings were reasonably related to actual risk. I have frequently avoided driving on days where there were major traffic issues, or arranged to work from home (or very close to home) in bad weather, so my risk went to zero on a day that could have been expensive for the insurer.
Currently though, I get a 40% discount from a major insurer just because of where I work, and further discounts for having home insurance with the same company. These have no bearing at all on the actual risk of a claim, but add up to a much bigger discount than this new program and its invasion of privacy.
"Sorry Mr. Anderson, but our records show you going over 300 mph for nearly 4 hours. We are going to have to cancel your policy."
But this comes with great concerns over privacy, and problems have been reported where the device was logging data when the user was riding a bus instead of driving his own car.
So is there some additional device in the car the phone app pairs with? Otherwise, how does the app know when you're driving your own car or simply a passenger in someone else's. This whole thing doesn't sound like it was thought out very well.
Let's just say I'd rather keep the problem scope as limited as possible rather than purposefully propagating it. This app is collecting personal data on an entirely different level, and it's being collected with the express purpose of being monetized.
Just because your car is at risk of being stolen just about anywhere doesn't mean you should park it on the street overnight in a crime-ridden neighborhood with a sign on it that ways "Please take me - I'm unlocked!"
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
What? A terrorist once rode in a child-molester? What a time to be alive.
You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
Yes, terrorists will ride anything.
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Is someone who briskly takes off from a light -- not doing burnouts or other kinds of hooning, -- automatically less safe than someone who rolls out at snails' pace?
Is someone who goes around a corner with some amount of G automatically less safe than those who take forever to negotiate the same corner?
At least it should catch those who wait until the last moment to brake when approaching a light or other traffic.
This app is going to penalize people that aren't in fact less safe, and it will utterly fail at detecting some truly dangerous driving: Will it detect someone who follows too close? Will it detect eating a double cheeseburger with one hand while applying makeup with
the other? Will it detect someone who's texting while driving? Reaching back to smack the kiddies around? Taking eyes off the road to fuck with the radio or satnav?
Will it detect all those who have their side mirrors way too far in?
No, it won't detect truly dangerous behavior and will penalize those who like to have a little fun with their cars without endangering anyone. Because, you know, not everyone sees cars as a mere conveyance or appliance.
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
It's not a privacy breach if you willingly give away your privacy. That is the system working as intended.
It would all stop if we instituted some laws with severe built-in penalties for collecting this information and subsequently mishandling it. Not just for known breaches, but there should be fines just for poor practices.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Just for registering a burner phone I never take with me when I'm driving, I can get cheaper insurance?
With the exception of a few ranchers in Texas we all spend our time using public roads. There is nothing private about how one drives on a public road. Anyone is free to study your driving and compile information about your driving habits or where you drive and at what time of day. Whether it's a jealous wife hiring a private detective or an app running on your cell phone it is all public in nature. People are seeking privacy where none has ever existed in the past.
BMI is a joke don't let the GOP get back in power or they will be able to use BMI to black list people.
Progressive insurance was using Big Brother device that you plug into your car diagnostic port years ago. They touted like 30% discount if you drive good enough. I had even considered it, but noticed they refuse responsibility if their own device fries car electronics, and apparently it may happen. Then I noticed that other insurance companies offer the same "discounted" rate without any Big Brother devices. Which effectively means you allow being tracked or get charged more. Good-by Progressive, see you again in the next century!
And how exactly did millage of your car got so high when you file a claim? Oops, insurance fraud, we don't need to pay you anything Mr Felon ;)
Your friendly insurance company.
On an entirely different level? Apart from data about the way I drive, they will have LESS data than what Google (I have an Android phone), my phone company and the government already have on me (they not only have access to my location, but they also have access to most of my communications). Talking about the government, they have also access to what I earn, the money I spend and in big part what I buy (for example when I buy something with my debit card or credit card), they have access to my medical record and what not. The worst is the government is the one who can really destroy my life, Google or my phone company can't do shit against me despite all the information they have.
So what if my car insurance company can also track me? What could they do? Send me a bit more ads on my email address? Do you really think I will notice it?
The question is : does my data about the way I drive could be detrimental to me? Since I never had a single traffic violation ticket in my life (I bought my first car in 1989), you can guess the answer is no. So why should I care? They're willing to pay me to verify that I don't lie when I say I'm a good driver? No problem. I never consider what I do on public property as private information anyway.
Why people might think this ISN'T a walking, talking privacy breach of the first order is beyond me.
Because most people are stupid, that's why. They can't see past their own noses. They allow retail stores to track all their purchases in very personalized detail in return for a few pennies off what they buy. They're willing to have some corporation know where they are and what they're doing 24/7/365, just for a few dollars discount. They let some company have their biometric data because they like their shiny new wristband that tells them how many steps they took today, thinking that's going to make them be not fat anymore. They barter away their privacy, a Pearl of Great Price, something they may NEVER get back, for a few measly pennies, and they don't even understand what it is they almost literally gave away to strangers. Or worse, they do that, then look down their noses at people who WON'T do the same, claiming 'You must have something to hide because you won't share with everyone else everything about your life, including when you're masturbating or taking a dump'. And even worse, there is an entire generation that doesn't have anything like real privacy, and looks at you like YOU'RE the one who's mentally ill, if you believe in privacy and try to explain to them what it is they're missing out on.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
This seems to be just a variation on a tachograph, and that's been about for almost a hundred years now!
I'm not saying I'd be front of the line to sign up for one f these 'deals', but if somebody else is that's their choice, and ergo not a breach of their privacy.