Acetaminophen Reduces Both Pain and Pleasure, Study Finds

An anonymous reader writes: Researchers studying the commonly used pain reliever acetaminophen found it has a previously unknown side effect: It blunts positive emotions (abstract). Acetaminophen, the main ingredient in the over-the-counter pain reliever Tylenol, has been in use for more than 70 years in the United States, but this is the first time that this side effect has been documented.

Comments

Headache

[irrational_design]

There is surely a joke about "Not tonight dear, I have a headache" here somewhere.

Re:Headache

[JanneM]

"Not tonight dear, I don't have a headache"?

Re:Headache

[kuzb]

The most common problem here is that men open with the wrong question.

"Would you like some Aspirin, dear?"

"No, I don't have a headache"

"Eeeexcellent"

Re:Headache

[Anonymous Coward]

sex is good against headaches actually

Re:Headache

[davester666]

or rather "Not tonight dear, I had a headache"

Re:Headache

[Njorthbiatr]

Orgasms are, at least. So long as it's not an orgasm induced headache.

In my opinion, copious amounts of caffeine and aspirin are better for treating headaches.

Re:Headache

[Anonymous Coward]

Orgasms are, at least. So long as it's not an orgasm induced headache.

In my opinion, copious amounts of caffeine and aspirin are better for treating headaches.

In one breath you state that it's OK as long as it's not inducing anything, and yet in another breath you point to a drug that is so addictive it will cause headaches if you do not consume it regularly enough.

Conflict much, or do you need another cup of addiction to think about that for a while? Ah, what the hell, make another pot, junkie.

Re:Headache

[nedlohs]

Where's the conflict?

He claimed that orgasms could both treat a headache or induce a headache depending on the details of the headache. And then that caffeine and aspirin can also treat a headache - which is clearly true for most people aspirin helps for those with a caffeine withdrawal headache caffeine will help too.

How does any of that conflict?

Re:Headache

[Anonymous Coward]

And of course your excuse for not considering that the OP never mentioned any participants' genders is because Teh Patreearrky says Manly Men never have headaches, and is just more proof that Teh Patreearrky hurts men too.

Re:Headache

[musterion]

Ah, a member of the Social Justice Stasi

Re:Headache

[david_thornley]

Yeah, but other things being equal, would you rather have caffeine, aspirin, or sex? (Yes, I know, for the archetypical /.er it's a hypothetical question.)

Re:Headache

[mattack2]

Not tonight dear, I had a Tylenol.

(and you could go further down the rabbit hole and bring in the product tampering case.)

Re: Headache

[phoenix_rizzen]

Except it's been shown that orgasm released chemicals in the brain that can eliminate most headaches. So the correct come back to "Not tonight, I have a headache" is "Excellent, because I have the cure for that in my pants". :) ;)

Re:Headache

[Njorthbiatr]

Yes, caffeine is especially good for treating headaches for the same reason it gives you one when you stop taking it. They'll give you IV caffeine sodium benzoate in a hospital if it's bad enough.

I do think caffeine is a horrible drug for regular consumption though.

Re: Headache

[Xman73x]

Bs the side effects are far worse then the FDA is telling us Americans try Asthma,Red Ichy skin, high blood pressure the list goes on!

Re: Headache

[doccus]

Well what do you expect from one of the most deadly poisons ever invented? Even analine dye, which is terribly poisonous, isn't as bad because poisoning by it can be treated. Acetaminophen poisoning will kill you after five days of the most horrendously painful and horrible symptoms ever, first, and there's no effective antidote for it.

Re: Headache

[doccus]

Well what do you expect from one of the most deadly poisons ever invented? Even analine dye, which is terribly poisonous, isn't as bad because poisoning by it can be treated. Acetaminophen poisoning will kill you after five days of the most horrendously painful and horrible symptoms ever, first, and there's no effective antidote for it.

Actually, I should have said there's no effective painless antidote for it. They can,m of course, stuff a long needle in your liver and if you then survbive you'll be permanently damaged. Anyone thinking of ending it via tylenol ought to know it might not work, and they'll be dependant on others the rest of their lives.

oh yeah, that....uh....i don't know

[turkeydance]

sounds like my wife.

Mandatory prescription for all Mericans

[Anonymous Coward]

Pump em full of Tylenol! Don't want em having fun; then they might start thinking for emselves and become terrists.

Re:Mandatory prescription for all Mericans

[binarylarry]

Err worse yet yooroopeens!

Tradeoffs

[Tablizer]

Perhaps this is why they are sold over the counter. If they didn't also deaden pleasure, they may otherwise be too addictive to be allowed over the counter. To be non-addictive, they may have to reduce pleasure to compensate for reduced pain. They could be (relatively) non-addictive because the overall affect averages out to neutral feelings so that a "pill=good" feedback cycle is not produced in the brain.

Re:Tradeoffs

[rtb61]

Yep, because feeling good via any other means than mass consumption is bad. Although the principles mass consumption are very bad psychologically and do drive a need for feel better drugs. Mass consumption is also very bad for the environment, so what exactly are we doing by favouring it of simpler less environmentally taxing feel good methods, especially when the need for the feel good methods is driven by the feel bad nature of mass consumption ie you are not consuming enough so the engines of mass consumption purposefully sets out to make you feel bad in you failure to consume, which you can only alleviate via consuming more and more and more. The feedback cycle on mass consumption seems to be far worse all around, individually and environmentally.

Re:Tradeoffs

[Shakrai]

Yep, because feeling good via any other means than mass consumption is bad.

So in your world there's no way to feel good besides using drugs or mass consumption?

Re:Tradeoffs

[rahvin112]

Why do you believe it is the job of government to regulate pleasure inducing substances?

Re:Tradeoffs

[Shakrai]

Within reasonable (cannabis, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, peyote) limits I don't view it as the job of the Government to regulate pleasure inducing substances. If you want to talk about the extremes (heroin and other opiates, cocaine, barbiturates), then yes, I think the use thereof should be regulated.

Re:Tradeoffs

[TheReaperD]

Regulated, sure, but, banned seems to be doing more harm than good. Not saying they're good things, they're not but, banning them is just making criminals rich and powerful rather than keeping them off the streets. Not a good policy in my book.

Re:Tradeoffs

[garyisabusyguy]

It's all on the heads of those damned Puritans

That should be the next 'go back in time' movie, send the Puritans to colonize Krakatoa and let the good-timing criminals colonize America

Re:Tradeoffs

[whoever57]

That should be the next 'go back in time' movie, send the Puritans to colonize Krakatoa and let the good-timing criminals colonize America

We know where that leads: Australia.

Re:Tradeoffs

[Bugamn]

Ok, so how do we get to be Canada?

Re:Tradeoffs

[fred911]

So,
  Weed, Booze, Coffee, Cigs, Peyote good.
  Coke, Smack, Barbs, Opium bad.
  What about Shrooms, Acid, MDMA and Tryptamines?

    And....uh... why should you be granted the right to make those decisions for me?

  Just sayin...

Re:Tradeoffs

[Anonymous Coward]

what kind of consumption?

Re:Tradeoffs

[rogoshen1]

they were the parolee's who got out for good behavior.

Re:Tradeoffs

[righteousness]

Who else do you think should have that job?

Re:Tradeoffs

[Anonymous Coward]

The Puritans get a bad rap. By modern standards, they were nearly all chronic drunks, and weren't nearly the sexual prudes we see them as today. They weren't interested in persecuting immorality so much as religious heresy.

Re:Tradeoffs

[Anonymous Coward]

Who do you think should have the job of enforcing hijab? Hint: "nobody" is a valid answer.

Re:Tradeoffs

[CrimsonAvenger]

Within reasonable (cannabis, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, peyote) limits I don't view it as the job of the Government to regulate pleasure inducing substances. If you want to talk about the extremes (heroin and other opiates, cocaine, barbiturates), then yes, I think the use thereof should be regulated.

It should, perhaps, be noted that what is defined as "extreme" depends largely on personal opinion.

If you give the government the power to regulate something, THEY define what is extreme. And the next Congress gets to redefine "extreme" to suit them, ad infinitum....

Re:Tradeoffs

[Shakrai]

So what's your alternative? The substances that I mentioned are the ones that turn a large majority of their users into slobbering idiots that are complete drains on society. The social compact doesn't allow us to throw them under the bus, so the rest of us are forced to subsidize them, at least until their bad life choices finally catch up to them. My State is spending millions of dollars right now to equip all first responders with naloxone, an anecdote to opiate poisoning, because of our ongoing heroin epidemic. Few people seem to get behind my flippant "Let the idiots die, we need that money for other things" approach.

I agree with you in principle, that if you give Government an inch they'll make a mile. Of course, that's the same argument made against the FCC's recent network neutrality decision. It's interesting how making it in the context of drug prohibition earns approval from the group-think here but making it against network neutrality invariably earns scorn and downmods. I guess it's all about knowing your audience. :)

Re:Tradeoffs

[Shakrai]

And....uh... why should you be granted the right to make those decisions for me?

Because when your dumbass overdoses on heroin you expect me to both save it and pick up the bill for doing so. You want to live in a Libertarian paradise? Can we start by letting OD victims die without wasting public resources on them? As in, the EMTs show up, see the heroin kit, and leave? Somehow I doubt you'd be willing to get behind that notion.

Some drugs are regulated for the public good. Should antibiotics be freely available to any idiot who wants them?

Re: Tradeoffs

[Anonymous Coward]

A majority? Wrong. Even the most addictive drugs, like heroin, don't magically create addicts. And those who do become addicted do so over time, albeit comparatively short time in the case of heroin or crack.

And in case you didn't get the memo, barbiturate oversized are far higher now than at the height of the heroin "epidemic". And it's all prescription drugs.

I don't have the answers to dealing with all our social ills. But regulation of drugs is clearly one of the least useful.

Re:Tradeoffs

[TheCarp]

Funny, as a pot smoker myself, who would love to see the terrible jobs program known as our drug war ended, I actually think its MORE important to legalize the harder drugs, even though they have a lot less users.

Fact is, drug laws have not been found even marginally effective at their intended purpose. Addiction rates do NOT go down as a result of them. In fact, about the only things drug laws have accomplished are filling prisons and creating law enforcement jobs. They also did a pretty good job making sure any violent street gangs that formed had easy access to lots of money, making them more lucrative and more able to expand and war with eachother.

There is ample evidence that drug addiction is not the cause of criminality either. However, criminality is the entirely predictable result of raising the price of people's addictions beyond their ability to pay and causing them to make irrational decisions like choosing between drugs and food or criminal acts and starvation.

Do you blame the drug addict who knows a little chemistry and knows he can feed his own addiction and maybe make some money cooking meth? Or do you blame the policy makers who created the black market for meth in the first place? No (or exceedingly few, there is always one of anything) homes burned before drug laws came to town. Now? Now half the people in burn units are there as a result of meth cooking..... and.,... the laws haven't even reduced drug use!

Whats worst, if you go back, its pretty clear all this hubub started as a jobs program after alcohol prohibition. It was the very people like Harry Anslinger who were facing possible loss of funding and their jobs with it, if new drug laws were not created..... they lied to congress like it was their job. Seriously, google good old Harry, you will see.

On the other hand, we have the swiss heroin study that looked at EXACTLY these issues. What did they do? Very simply....they provided heroin to junkies at what they believed would be an open market rate without prohibition and a safe place to use their drug. The result? well, they continued to use heroin, but there was a reported 90% drop in all other forms of criminality.

Drugs are not the problem, idiots who think they can solve all problems by just making laws against anything they dislike who are the problem.

Re:Tradeoffs

[The-Ixian]

I really don't think that it is drugs that "turn a large majority of their users into slobbering idiots", this attitude is part of the problem.
 
I think that drugs are a side effect of a larger more fundamental issue in those people's lives. I mean, who doesn't like feeling good? Drugs can make you feel really, really good.
 
I think it is just that most people don't know how to talk about drugs because they can't, we don't let them. What they are going through is outside the experience of non-drug users and furthermore we are taught to demonize them because "drugs are bad, mmmmmkay?.
 
Drug users have to hide their use from everyone except the people that are doing it with them.
 
You get an echo chamber effect and bad decisions are cascaded because there is no voice of reason any more, just voices of contempt and disgust coming from the communities outside.

Re:Tradeoffs

[rahvin112]

People don't OD on opiates (heroin) when the doses are controlled. The typical heroin overdose is because the user is sold heroin that is significantly stronger than they are used to. They then cut a "normal" dose and it's 50% stronger than they are used to.

This was proven in the dutch and other European studies where they started giving pharmaceutical grade heroin to users and saw a 95% drop in deaths. These studies halted almost all the bad effects of the drug as well in that the average user was able to hold a job and be a productive member of society.

Opiates aren't the demon the press and Hollywood has made them out to be. They are demonized primarily because they are injected rather than smoked and the addiction was common in inner cities in the 70's when Hollywood had it's biggest fascination with drug use.

Re:Tradeoffs

[The-Ixian]

100% correct. I would mod you up except I already posted in this thread.

Re:Tradeoffs

[Shakrai]

I think that drugs are a side effect of a larger more fundamental issue in those people's lives. I mean, who doesn't like feeling good? Drugs can make you feel really, really good.

So can overeating, that doesn't mean it's something to be encouraged or condoned. Some of us have the self-control not to do such things and resent having to subsidize those that don't. That's without even considering the more immediate impact that drug addicts have on those around them. Have you ever seen a baby that was born addicted to drugs, or children whose needs aren't being met because Mom and/or Dad are too busy chasing the dragon? I used to work for a human services agency, so I have....

Don't misunderstand me, I agree with the crux of what you're trying to say, particularly: "I think that drugs are a side effect of a larger more fundamental issue in those people's lives."

I have never encouraged a policy of blanket prohibition, throughout this thread I've said drugs should be regulated, not banned. The degree of regulation is something we could talk about for hours, suffice it to say, I'm going to get off the bus if you start talking about recreational heroin, cocaine, and other substances with a similar potential for abuse.

Re:Tradeoffs

[Shakrai]

You are arguing against a position I have not taken. I have no use for the "War on Drugs." I have already stated that I am in favor of the legalization of several substances for recreational use. For those that I would not legalize, well, I don't think we need a war against them. I simply think they should be regulated, in the same manner that all sorts of dangerous substances are regulated.

The degree of regulation should be based on the dangerousness of the substance in question. You can't buy C4 for your July 4th party, but you can get your hands on black powder without too much trouble.

Incidentally, as a former pot smoker, I tend to agree with the South Park line, "The truth is, marijuana probably isn't going to make you kill people. Most likely isn't going to fund terrorists, but pot makes you feel fine with being bored and it's when you're bored that you should be learning a new skill or some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that you're not good at anything."

I wish I could have back the five years of my life I spent stoned. Does that mean I think it should be banned? No, it just means that I'm not going out of my way to encourage people to use it. I've done my best to discourage the people who have asked me about it. Sadly, like many political issues today, there's not much room for any position outside of absolutism.

The song was wrong!

[dohzer]

So there *isn't* a fine line between pleasure and pain. At least in this case.

Re:The song was wrong!

[Anonymous Coward]

In the related news, the American Sadomasochist Association sues the drug manufacturers for 70 years of boredom. The drug manufacturer's representative was quoted as looking forwards to torturous court sessions and fitting punishment for the instigators of the "nuisance suite".

Hmmmm

[Vinegar Joe]

Are they positive about this?

Re:Hmmmm

[Mashiki]

As someone who was prescribed acetaminophen with codeine(Tylenol 3) as a starter treatment for migraines I can say in my experience it does both. In the last 15 years I've since moved onto ultram and fiorinal c 1/2 which is it's own fucked up ball of wax. Why this is news though I have no idea, it was well known in the 1920's an 30's that both acetaminophen and codeine depressed the nervous system and they used it to treat shell shocked troops.

Re:Hmmmm

[xanthines-R-yummy]

No, they are not, as all good scientists are. From the actual journal article:

"Some limitations of our work should be noted. Specifically, we cannot ascertain from the current studies whether acetaminophen might blunt individuals’ attention or motivation to process emotionally evocative stimuli instead of (or in addition to) their evaluative processing of these stimuli."

Honestly, it's a pretty weak self-critique. I wish they had talked more about how meaningful the differences they found were. Yes, the p values were low, so they were statistically significant, but their graphs aren't so impressive to me. Then again, I'm not a psychologist (although I am a MD) and I'm not familiar with their assessment tools (the IAPS picture database?). So what do I know? :)

Re:Hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Codeine has its own set of intoxicating high and crippling withdrawal symptoms. You simply cannot, based on your experience with Tylenol 3, say that you've experienced both sides of acetaminophen because the codeine alters the experience far too drastically.

Re:Hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Side-effects of fiorinal may include hypertension, nausea, internal bleeding, and paradoxical overconfidence. If you begin to experience an irrational desire to drive your company into the ground then call that a win, stop taking fiorinal and call your doctor at once, as you may be having an allergic reaction.

Re:Hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

you do know codeine is an opiate right? I'm not sure how much of the apa was a factor in relaxation in comparison to codeine.

Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

I had depression in college. They put me on Zoloft. It makes your head feel like its in a cave. While I'm sure the intent is to make sure your lows are less, it also makes your highs less. How was I supposed to get undepressed if I can experience as much happiness as before? I guess its for people who experience lows way more often than they experience highs.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[ProzacPatient]

I had depression in college. They put me on Zoloft. It makes your head feel like its in a cave. While I'm sure the intent is to make sure your lows are less, it also makes your highs less. How was I supposed to get undepressed if I can experience as much happiness as before? I guess its for people who experience lows way more often than they experience highs.

How long were you on Zoloft? Sometimes the first few weeks can have very strange side effects that will diminish over time but on the other hand everyone's chemistry is different and perhaps Sertraline just isn't as compatible with your body as much as other people's bodies. Sometimes Prozac will work for a person who didn't get much benefit from Zoloft or perhaps Zoloft will work for someone who didn't get much benefit from Effexor. For me, personally, Zoloft has been a life saver; it elevates my moods and helps me control my anxiety.

I also have this theory formulated from both my own personal experiences and my observations of other people is that people who have depression, or other mental disorders, are so used to such extreme emotions that taking a drug that brings them down to an emotionally nominal level feels like being turned into a zombie to them because they're only used to feeling everything to such an extreme.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Shakrai]

The best anti-depressant I have found is distance running. The second best is other forms of cardio exercise. SSRIs or SNRIs? Been there, done that, they did very little to help me with depression. I don't even think they took the edge off, although it's hard to prove that negative. Tried Celexa, Zoloft, Effexor, Prozac, and a few other ones. Not only did they fail to address (or even make manageable) the depression, they all came with a lovely side effect and then six months of the other extreme when I discontinued them.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Doctors lack a fundamental understanding of the effect the drugs they prescribe for mental health treatment, and are effectively guessing as to what they think will work.

I came to this idea after a psychiatrist told me that the drugs were about balancing the chemicals in the brain, but I eventually realized that he had taken no measurements or anything before throwing any of them at me.

So what balance was out of whack? What effect would the medications have? Oh wait, he didn't know. These concerns were dismissed and antagonized. I was merely a patient, I needed to learn to obey the doctor. So what did I learn?

That the doctor, while purportedly concerned, was hardly treating me in a sound and reasonable manner, but was behaving in a way that worsened my problems and caused me several more issues.

Only sheer chance got me out with relatively little harm.

Maybe Zoloft, or Prozac, or whatever is serving you. There are others who are being damaged by the worst kind of treatment. One with delusions of grandeur.

I'd have been safer going to an herb shop and inhaling a potpourri.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Astroturfing for antidepressants much ?

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried Zoloft for months and all it did was make me fat which further my depression. It also messed up my white cells (according to the hematologist anyways.)

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[dugancent]

There is no money in antidepressants. They are cheap as cheap can be genetics.

Zoloft, Celexa, Prozac and Paxil are all generic and $10/90 days virtually everywhere.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[jean-guy69]

Like many other anti-depressant Zoloft is selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor...

The other way to treat this is by increasing level of serotonin...

Seeds of Griffonia simplicifolia contain a lot of 5-HTP, a precursor of serotonin..

It's non-patentable so I guess it won't be as popular as patented psychotropic drugs anytime soon..

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[jean-guy69]

You can find HTP-5 (also known as oxitriptan) in many drugs, not only herbal supplements..

http://www.catalog.md/drugs-in...

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what else available at drug stores and has a lot of 5-HTP? Multiple brands of bottles of 5-HTP capsules. Keep in mind downing a bottle of dextromethorphan cough gels will also massively increase your serotonin levels. Don't mix those, and don't suppliment with 5-HTP with any SSRI. Also, eating a peach or a candy bar and/or engaging in sexual intercourse, even just masterbating, will also increase serotonin levels.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Hartree]

One of the problems is that depression isn't a single process. It's a symptom, and we lump a lot of things under that name.

The exact details vary from patient to patient. Also, the differences in the way the drugs used to treat it are metabolized in different people can be pretty significant.

I've taken Prozac for nearly as long as it's been available. It works well for me. When I've gone off of it to see if I could do without, the depression came back on a pretty predictable timeline. I tried another antidepressant, Effexor, and that didn't work so well for me. The additional effect it has on norepinephrine as well as the serotonin system (I'm guessing that's what it was based on what we know about how it works. YMMV) made me a bit too up, i.e. slightly hypomanic.

The SSRIs don't work for everyone. It's usually taken about 3 tries for most of those I know who are taking them for definitely diagnosed depression to find the right one/the right dose. For a goodly number, they just don't work that well.

The certainly aren't the only class of drugs that are like that. Blood pressure medications often have to be tailored in dose and kind before they lower the pressure enough without too many side effects.

As another anon (maybe you) mentioned, regular exercise works very well for many people. But again, not so well for all, either due to inability to exercise, or just not working as well as in other people. (In fact, regular exercise programs are an excellent thing to try first in depression, IMHO as soon as other common medical causes like hypothyroidism are ruled out).

As others have mentioned, when you're first starting a new antidepressant changing dosage, you need to be monitored by a health professional (which I'm not, thus take this as one man's views.). Mood changes and the possibility of suicidality aren't something to try to watch for by yourself as you're the one whose judgement is being impacted by them.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Culture20]

There is money in cheap things if they can be made cheaply enough and sold in high enough volume (having an advocate helps there).

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

That would entirely depend on the doctor. From my own experience, my psychiatrist is very aware of the effects of all the drugs he prescribes me. His knowledge of the pharmacology involved in SSRIs, beta-blockers, atypical antipsychotics, and a myriad of other mood stabilizing agents along with the possible interactions and side effects is as wide as his understanding of mental health. He appreciates that I do my own research into the drugs and treatment plan and I appreciate that I can challenge him if I'm concerned over a specific course. Blood work is routinely pulled to check blood serum levels on the drugs, kidney and liver function as well as the levels of many other things. If your doctor is dismissing your concerns, you need to find a better doctor.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

When I had my depression it was hard enough to get out of the bed.
If I had been able to go distance running I would probably not have been diagnosed as depressed.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

And oh, my the psychodrama is much less intense and gets you far less Facebook supportive friends saying "poor bably, like! like! like! like!" The ability to whinge 24x7 is one of the great sinks of productive time in online media.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

My psychiatrist told me I'm depressed because my life sucks. "No pill can fix that." Unfortunately he wasn't able to help me make my life stop sucking either.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm jealous. I'm in the Netherlands and have gone through a few psychiatrists to find a good fit. None of them took their medication seriously. I'm a severe case, but one that they'd seemingly rather walk away from. A few of them have made grave mistakes that cost me my health and, multiple times, nearly my life because of serious errors in the prescriptions.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[grumling]

Yea, I used to think the same thing until I dated a woman who was bipolar. There are people out there with real problems, problems that aren't easily solved by "shake it off and take a lap." You probably went to the wrong doctor, who instead of taking the time to find out what your problem was (or wasn't), put you on the pharma cure.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Sarten-X]

...a psychiatrist told me that the drugs were about balancing the chemicals in the brain, but I eventually realized that he had taken no measurements or anything before throwing any of them at me.

So what balance was out of whack? What effect would the medications have? Oh wait, he didn't know.

He's likely even more annoyed about it than you are.

The problem is that the imbalances may be located in a small part of the brain, and may be on the order of a few dozen molecules, from any of a few thousand chemicals. Thanks to the blood-brain barrier and the localized nature, the only way to actually measure such chemicals is with very invasive (and probably-lethal) brain surgery. There just isn't a simple test where the doctor can prick your finger, put a drop of blood in a magic machine, and tell you which of your neurons are misbehaving.

For much the same reasons, there are no direct treatments. We can't just poke your amygdala until it works like everyone else - and even if we could, the rest of your brain may not accept the change, and your problems could get worse.

Psychopharmacology is not engineering. The cause-and-effect relationships are not simple or direct. Rather than study in vain all of the chemical interactions in your brain, your doctor has studied in depth all of the medications he prescribes, memorizing all of their many side effects (with incidence rates) and known relationships to other medications.

For the actual treatment, yes, it is purely educated guesswork. In your particular case, you may have showed symptoms of X but not Y, so you're a good candidate for treatment 1. That didn't work at all, so treatments 2 and 3 are ruled out, because they work on the same principles. Treatment 4 might be an option, but it only treats symptom Z, which you don't have, but in a certain percentage of cases it does absolutely nothing for Z and causes inverse symptoms to X and Y. Now, that treatment only begins to work after a three-month buildup, so let's start you on that while also trying treatment 5, which starts working immediately and doesn't interfere with treatment 4. Unfortunately the improvement from treatment 5 is very mild, but it can be improved with treatment 6 which amplifies the effects of 5, but does interact negatively with 4.

These concerns were dismissed and antagonized. I was merely a patient, I needed to learn to obey the doctor. So what did I learn?

We learned that you think you know psychopharmacology better than the person who's studied it for several years.

Only sheer chance got me out with relatively little harm.

Or your stubborn attitude provided the push to develop a coping mechanism on your own, which is also a perfectly valid (though sometimes risky) treatment. When done intentionally (usually involving the field of psychiatry, rather than psychopharmacology), it's more an attempt to change the person to fit their condition, rather than fixing the condition to fit the person.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

... had taken no measurements ...

I read it about 30 years ago, a psychiatrist said (in the 1950s I think), the problem with psychiatry is the lack of measurement of psychiatric symptoms. It's very difficult to look inside the human body, but physicians have a small set of tools they can aim at one part of the body: The physician just has to guess/calculate which part. A psychiatrist has to treat the brain has a whole and can rarely look inside it.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Because people's chemistries are so different, there is no way that doctors/shrinks can--practically speaking, do anything other than experiment on each patient individually. "That one didn't work for you, well, try this one for a few weeks," is the only viable affordable approach. S/he could study your brain chemistry for months and still not be able to predict exactly what a particular drug will do to you.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

That is certainly the belief among many such doctors. Except that kind of approach is a perilous one, and fraught with problems of its own.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

If I had any mod points, you would get them all.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

Money yes, profit no. There is no margin whatsoever on generics.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Shakrai]

Actually my MD saved my life, with a single verbal statement that was far more effective than any of the drugs that him or his predecessors tried, "Suicide is the most selfish decision you'll make and your friends will never forgive you for it."

I concur with you in principle, there are some people who need meds, but my gut feeling (reinforced by seven years of working for a mental healthcare agency, incidentally) is that we reach for them too quickly.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[facetube]

The anti-depressant response to endurance exercise may be genotype-dependent. Read up on the OPRM1 A118G SNP (a genetic mutation of the mu opioid receptor); it's fascinating: http://www.nature.com/npp/jour....

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

If your doctor is dismissing your concerns, you need to find a better doctor.

Yes, that is something I realize now, after much suffering, from a doctor who made me feel bad about even bringing up the issue.

One of my weaknesses is not challenging others, and letting them run over me, so I have come to the realization that I have to make it a point to try very hard to be more discerning when it comes to dealing with such figures.

Thanks for your concern, it's helpful to be able contrast the tone of your response with that of others.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Anonymous Coward]

This oddly works with quite a lot of people with minor depression, aka, feeling shit and not actually real depression, which is a far worse and more specific thing that has become clouded with misrepresentation over the years.

Real full-on depression is cutting yourself wanting to die levels of sadness that very rarely the average person can feel unless something traumatic enough happens.

If you are feeling sad, a run or 30 minute exercise can completely change that mood.
Trivial to do in the home as well. I literally use kitchen worktops to put my hands on to and balance on them with my feet off the ground, or use a bed as an increased height to make push-ups harder. (eventually going to wall angles and full verticl with hand-stand)
So many people are against exercise because they don't realize that physical effort itself IS exercise, even if only minor. They stupidly seem to think you need to be going to a gym to exercise. A 30 minute walk a day can literally save years of your life. People don't realize just how simple it is and how refreshed it makes you feel.
Even sitting there tensing up your muscles in legs and arms over and over can be good for you if you have to sit for long periods of time. (hell, may as well tense them up all over, just make sure you use deodorant too!)

I went through a shitty phase after having my life pretty much ruined by Crohns, but after regularly doing exercise it took away a large amount of said sadness.
Still shitty condition of life, even being accused of lying by supposed doctors assigned by government, but at least I don't physically feel as ill as I did before and they will be sued to oblivion soon enough with factual proof of their lies. (prick said I looked after a dog, WHAT)

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[david_thornley]

No, Zoloft made your head feel like it's in a cave. It didn't do that for me.

For some weird reason, different SSRIs have wildly different side effects on different people. A friend of mine said that Zoloft made him feel like his skin was crawling off, but he didn't mind.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[david_thornley]

Antidepressants are fairly safe drugs, in that the side effects tend to be more annoying than dangerous. We don't understand depression all that well. (It's diagnosed by asking questions about symptoms, after all, and there are no confirming tests. Not last I saw, anyway.) SSRIs are pretty cheap when not patented, much less expensive than talk therapy.

Given that, I'm not convinced that giving drugs to a person who has depression is a bad thing.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[david_thornley]

There are bad psychiatrists. You may well have gotten one of them. It happens. Due to the sorry state of healthcare in the US, you may not have an alternative psychiatrist available.

However, the main point is that nobody knows what your depression really is or the best treatment, and that's not just a characteristic of your psychiatrist. An excellent one would have tried treatment after treatment until finding something that seems to work, and would have been annoyed at not knowing how to do better.

Re: Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[david_thornley]

And, if you have a better idea, please publish. The "many such doctors" are correct, whether you like it or not, and will be until we can gain a lot more understanding of how the human brain can go wrong.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[Yaotzin]

Yea, I used to think the same thing until I dated a woman who was bipolar. There are people out there with real problems, problems that aren't easily solved by "shake it off and take a lap." You probably went to the wrong doctor, who instead of taking the time to find out what your problem was (or wasn't), put you on the pharma cure.

Actually my MD saved my life, with a single verbal statement that was far more effective than any of the drugs that him or his predecessors tried, "Suicide is the most selfish decision you'll make and your friends will never forgive you for it."

I concur with you in principle, there are some people who need meds, but my gut feeling (reinforced by seven years of working for a mental healthcare agency, incidentally) is that we reach for them too quickly.

Well you're both right. Anti-depressants should always be used together with non-pharmacological treatment e.g. cognitive behaviour therapy. Often they're a vital component, making the patient more receptive to treatment by psychiatrist, but not always necessary. It's quite common to go through several SSRI/SNRI before finding one that works. This is how it will continue until the etiology of clinical depression is more completely understood and we get better meds.

Re:Zoloft is a 1000 times worse

[RyoShin]

If I may ask, when did you begin running? Was it before you tried the anti-depressants, while trying them, or after you stopped? At any point did you take a long hiatus from running, either before you started anti-depressants and then picked it up after you started, or stopped and started while on the same anti-depressant?

(I deal with depression, currently on Celexa and Welbutrin; I've tried Zoloft in the past with same effects as GP, and most recently had a go with Venlaxflexin. I'm curious in drug-free possibilities, but boy do I hate running.)

It's true!

[slashmydots]

I took some Tylenol this morning for a headache and when I showed up, the support tickets were still bullshit, someone still claims I didn't fix something correctly, and I still hate my job and everyone there. Now I know why :P

Re:It's true!

[Anonymous Coward]

You should take some happy pills and dismiss all bugs as WORKSFORME! It works for me.

Just took some Tylenol

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not happy about it.

A Precursor to Prozium

[Anonymous Coward]

Anybody?

= paracetamol

[ebcdic]

Most of the world calls this drug paracetamol.

Re:= paracetamol

[ralphsiegler]

are you sure not Tylenol? also Panadol, Mapap, Tempra, Feverall, Ofirmev, Acephen, Mejoralito, Xl-dol, Bf-paradac, Aypanal, Aphen, Nortemp, Apap, Ringl

Re:= paracetamol

[mjwx]

are you sure not Tylenol? also Panadol, Mapap, Tempra, Feverall, Ofirmev, Acephen, Mejoralito, Xl-dol, Bf-paradac, Aypanal, Aphen, Nortemp, Apap, Ringl

Paracetamol == drug name.

Panadol == brand name.

I never ask for a pain reliever by it's brand name as brand name pain killers are more expensive than generics and the generics are just as effective.

Re:= paracetamol

[Anonymous Coward]

> I never ask for a pain reliever by it's brand name as brand name pain killers are more expensive than generics and the generics are just as effective.

Actually, no. All a generic version has to show is that the active compound pharmacokinetic parameters are within 80% to 120% of the innovator drug in healhty subjects usually as measured by plasma levels. Measurement of effectiveness is done differently.

The reality behind generics can be quite ugly:

http://www.biospace.com/News/gvk-biosciences-private-limited-manipulated-data/357285 (done by GVK Bio which 'launched a new brand name" Clinogent . New name - new luck, eh?

Then there was Cetero .. seemingly the same thing.

Those are just the BA/BE outfits 'cheating'.

And from there we go into the manufacturers of generics (mostly in Asia these days), e.g., "Vince Fabiano, a former vice president of Ranbaxy, said, "In essence, they used the fraud as a competitive advantage to build and grow the business here in the U.S." ".
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ranbaxy-whistleblower-reveals-how-he-exposed-massive-pharmaceutical-fraud/

And they are not alone, and likely never will be. Before dispensing pharmaceutical or medical advice please be aware of the limitations of what you say.

Re:= paracetamol

[mjwx]

Before dispensing pharmaceutical or medical advice please be aware of the limitations of what you say.

You really need to start taking your own advice.

Your sources come from brand name manufacturers. Of course they're going to claim generics dont work as well.

The FDA and it's counterparts in every other western country has a requirement that all generic pharmaceuticals are as safe and effective as the brand name pharmaceuticals they're competing against.

Studies have shown that generics are not only bioequivalent, but the lower cost leads to better adherence (I.E. patients "forget" to take the brand name medication more often).

Re:= paracetamol

[ralphsiegler]

They are both nonsense names, the chemical is N-(4-hydroxyphenyl)ethanamide That word paracetamol, coined in the mid 50s, is just a sort of contraction of para + acetyl + amino + phenol

Re:= paracetamol

[Anonymous Coward]

Your sources come from brand name manufacturers. Of course they're going to claim generics dont work as well.

The FDA and it's counterparts in every other western country has a requirement that all generic pharmaceuticals are as safe and effective as the brand name pharmaceuticals they're competing against.

Your sources come from generics manufacturers. The FDA tests but a fraction of the manufacturing lines of the generics relative to the brand names. There've been some serious scandals about that.

Re:= paracetamol

[Malc]

Growing up in the UK, I'd never heard of Tylenol until I moved to Canada as an adult. You occasionally hear it on American TV shows these days, but unless you know what the characters are referring to, it will just pass most people by. Even "acetaminophen" is an unknown term in the UK, it's always just "paracetamol"

Tylenol is most definitely a N. American thing that nobody else knows about. Panadol seems to be the generic antipodean headache drug - I know this because my wife is Aussie and after six years in London she's still confusing people by saying "panadol" instead of "paracetamol" :)

Re:= paracetamol

[Duckman5]

Or you could just go with my favorite, n-acetyl-para-aminophenol (shortened to APAP in the pharmacy trade). Bottom line is that there are lots of ways to write chemical names, all correct. See here.

Re:= paracetamol

[AmiMoJo]

In Europe all medicines have to have a code printed on the box so that you know they have been approved for sale. These codes often give them away. For example, brand names often use the same codes as the own brand/generic ones, which means that they are identical in every way. Same pills, only the packaging can vary.

Often you find that brands sell the same medicine under different names. For example, you might see a "fast relief" version and a "period pain" version, but they have the same code so they are actually exactly the same thing in different boxes (and the period pain one costs more).

Re:= paracetamol

[Anonymous Coward]

I have not heard of any of those, but according to Wikipedia, acetaminophen is just another name for paracetamol.

Re:= paracetamol

[Muad'Dave]

We have at least one instance of that in the US - Excedrin. Their "Extra Strength" formulation has the exact same amounts of the active ingredients as their "Excedrin Migraine" and "Excedrin Menstrual Complete". At least at Walgreens Online they charge $17.99 for 200 Extra Strength caplets and $18.49 for 200 Migraine caplets. In the actual brick-and-mortar stores the prices are usually identical. Walmart's prices are the same.

Re:= paracetamol

[bsolar]

Not sure about how it works in the USA but in Europe source is not generics' manufacturers, it's the European Medicines Agency which mandates that generics have to be manufactured with exaclty the same quality and active component dosages than the brand reference medicine: only name, packaging and inactive components can differ (and obviously, price).

Re:= paracetamol

[ralphsiegler]

it even has two IUPAC systematic names, besides the Name: field in the screen you linked N-(4-hydroxyphenyl)acetamide in that list also is valid one.

Re:= paracetamol

[yakumo.unr]

If you look up Tylenol you'll be told that it's active ingredient is acetaminophen which is only really a recognised name for the drug in the US and Japan, it's paracetamol pretty much anywhere else. So it is worth pointing out.

Re:= paracetamol

[ralphsiegler]

but none of those names are the actual systematic name of the chemical, those all came out of some marketing wank's ass much, much later (paracetamol name coined about 70 years after stuff was first synthesized)

Re:= paracetamol

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait, really? Seriously?
The hell, it does the exact opposite of me.
It makes me HORNY and creative, in fact, while also actually getting rid of pain quite well.
Lower level Paracetamol doesn't work too well with me unless I take it with tramadol, but even then barely.

And that is taking these pills in particular.
Solpadol makes me feel far far better when I take them. The only downside is the slight nausea after 5 hours if I don't take any more, which is bad since I tend to only take them once a day when things are REALLY bad. (in addition to Tramadol as well now, which aids it far more)

Should I go see a doctor? Am I broken?! OH GOD

Re:= paracetamol

[Akaihiryuu]

For awhile, the chemical was called para-acetylaminophenol, which is as you said a common meaningless name. Both acetaminophin and paracetamol were abbreviations of this.

Re:= paracetamol

[Duckman5]

That's not even the worst of them. You get into the steroids and the estrogens and you're in for a real treat. They're all derived from cholesterol so they all have the same basic structure. Then there are several commonly accepted names for modified structures. So...some people will start with a simple base structure name and use the IUPAC rules to list all the substituents. Others will start with a more complicated (but named) base structure and just say 19-nor-whatever (to indicate that the substituent that SHOULD be attached to that carbon isn't) to refer to the same structure. It's confusing. I'm just glad I'm not a medicinal chemist and that the FDA gives us trade names so that one pharmacist knows what the other pharmacist is talking about.

Acetaminophen == Paracetamol

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everyone is living in the US where its called Acetaminophen. Europeans call it Paracetamol.

Re:Acetaminophen == Paracetamol

[PhotoJim]

I doubt most Americans know this. (Some do, for sure.)

Re:Acetaminophen == Paracetamol

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt most Americans know this. (Some do, for sure.)

I doubt most Americans know that Tylenol == acetaminophen, for that matter.

However, I'm an American and I know that acetaminophen is known as paracetamol in much of the world.

Re:Acetaminophen == Paracetamol

[russotto]

Just call it APAP, it's shorter and works in both places. Used as a pain reliever I'd also accept "placebonol", because it doesn't work.

Re:Acetaminophen == Paracetamol

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that it doesn't work as a pain reliever - not for me anyway - eating chocolate is better.

Laugh

[koan]

Doctor: Oh you have a twisted ankle here take this Tylenol for a month.
(month goes by)
Doctor: Oh you're feeling down? Here take some SSRI's
(month goes by)
Doctor: Oh you're feeling suicidal... and so on and so on.

Re:Laugh

[newcastlejon]

Doctor: Oh you're feeling suicidal... and so on and so on.

I'm sorry, but I don't get it. Did they manage to kill the fly in the end?

Re: Laugh

[Anonymous Coward]

My experience is that it also cuts the down part, not only the up. So you go from being up or down to neutral.

And I suffer from depression.

Re:Laugh

[operagost]

No, but when winter came the gorillas froze to death.

Aspirin is much better for you

[Trax3001BBS]

But hospitals don't stock them or least they claim not to, cause it makes the blood thinner (easier flowing) yet give one Sodium Warfarin to do the same thing - difference is Warfarin will cause you to bleed to death.

  I avoid Acetaminophen, Tylenol what ever you want to call it, it's a liver killer. Consider that they mix it with codeine as a pain reliever; they would rather harm or even destroy your liver than allow misuse.

Re:Aspirin is much better for you

[binarylarry]

Well the liver Is one of the few internal organs that can heal itself.

Re:Aspirin is much better for you

[Shakrai]

Aspirin isn't a sliver bullet either....

My preference is ibuprofen for head or muscle aches, followed by naproxen, and then aspirin. I'd concur with you about the liver impact of acetaminophen, I had my MD tell me once upon a time that I needed to cut back on the drinking, because of my liver results; I hadn't had a drink in over a month but had been on a regime of acetaminophen + codine following wisdom tooth surgery. That was a wake up call. :)

Re:Aspirin is much better for you

[holmstar]

True, but it can be damaged enough to prevent healing. There are also chemicals it doesn't know how to deal with, so they just build up in the liver until it can't function. Also, it's suprisingly easy to overdose on acetaminophen. Particularly if you consume alcohol while taking it. An overdose can easily result in total liver failure.

I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[mjwx]

The article reported a "reduction" in responses to "pleasant and disturbing photos". So I wouldn't start claiming that it's having a very negative effect, or much of an effect at all. When I'm in enough pain to necessitate a pain killer I'm not usually worried about being as happy as I could be (9 times out of 10, it's so I can get to sleep). I typically use Ibuprofen (with a bit of codeine) as most of my pain is a result of inflammation and paracetamol isn't a good anti-inflamatory.

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[Shados]

Don't forget that in North America, people pop these pain killers like candies the moment their head feels a little stuffy.

That makes it a bigger deal (of course the fact that they're overused in the first place is an issue in itself)

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[Shadow of Eternity]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the real measurement here is that when you feel shitty you're not gonna be as happy even if you're on a painkiller.

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[Chikungunya]

I would be also interested in the number of participants, how they were divided, if the effect in dose-dependent, the statistical analysis and so on, unfortunately I have seen too many psychology papers that barely reach the P=0.5 but still are confident about their conclusions.

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say that having used Tylenol in above-recommended dosages to deal with acute stretches of muscle pain, it definitely has an effect of 'detached focus', although I always found it rather pleasant as it helps ignore pain as much as anything else.

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[NormalVisual]

although I always found it rather pleasant as it helps ignore pain as much as anything else.

That's pretty much what morphine does to me. It does very little to reduce the pain, but it makes me completely not care about it. That, and throw up a lot, like most narcotics do with me. For the life of me I can't understand how people get addicted to the stuff. I'd *much* rather be in pain than feeling nauseous.

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[mjwx]

For the life of me I can't understand how people get addicted to the stuff. I'd *much* rather be in pain than feeling nauseous.

The same drug can have radically different effects on different people. Sounds like you dont react well to morphine. Others will react differently.

My brother in law gets knocked out by small doses of doxylamine (over the counter sedative used in some pain killers) but I'm almost completely unaffected by a slightly higher dose.

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's just as well, acetaminophen is dangerous at relatively low doses.

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[Anonymous Coward]

Opiates... yummy!!!

I really, really liked Demerol. It was my *friend*. It made me feel so nice, so *not angry* while taking it that it scared the piss out of me and I got off of it 3 days early for a shattered leg. It surprised the doctor quite a lot: I think he'd tried to keep me extra doped up because I tried to unscrew his head from his shoulders when he lied about what he was doing and set my leg before surgery and before any of the painkillers had kicked in. It took several staff to unwrap my hands form his head while I was screaming bloody murder at the time, and I had the hospital librarian bring me copies of the guidelines on informed consent. (I'd been keeping her Mac computers working for years: Did I forget to mention I worked at their sister hospital?)

I did notice that he made *damn sure* I was pinned down by the supports for my broken leg before he came anywhere near my room on rounds. I was actually a bit surprised I got such a good grip on him in the pinch, when I thought about it, because I knew several orthopedic surgeons and they tended to be *very* strong, even if small. Perhaps it was also that three professors from the medical school came and told him to take good care of me. (I designed some unique software and hardware for them all.) I highly recommend scaring the hell out of your doctors to make them pay *attention* to your case, and stealing your own chart to keep track of things. I'm very glad I did steal my chart, I have some other medical problems that the surgeon basically ignored that could have killed me as the surgeon kept sending things to the lab instead of actually treating them. I think the surgeon hated me by the time I left, partly because I kept tearing him a new one, but the nurses loved me. I talked to bored spitless patients, helped make sure some sad ones actually ate, and even tried to help walk unsteady patients around while I was on crutches. I was *good* on crutches, I'd had an active life and some practice.

But back to the point. Oooooh, yes, Demerol is my *friend*. I've craved it a few times since then, which sends up all my "Danger, danger, danger Will Robinson!" flags.

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[Akaihiryuu]

People don't realize that it is extremely toxic to the liver in anything above a normal dose, and MUCH MUCH moreso if alcohol is involved. If alcohol is involved 1 tablet is enough to send you into liver failure. That said, I get sinus headaches frequently due to allergies, but I only take a half dose of generic excedrin when I get one, and it usually takes care of it right away. That has 250mg of acetaminophen, 250mg of aspirin, and 60mg of caffeine. Supposedly, otherwise healthy individuals who do not consume alcohol can tolerate up to about 4000mg/day (but some researchers disagree and think anything over 1000mg/day is bad). Either way, acetaminophin should be "do not take more than you absolutely need".

Re:I'll bet the effect is very mild.

[tbuskey]

That's pretty much what morphine does to me. It does very little to reduce the pain, but it makes me completely not care about it. That, and throw up a lot, like most narcotics do with me. For the life of me I can't understand how people get addicted to the stuff. I'd *much* rather be in pain than feeling nauseous.

When I had my ACL in my knee repaired, they put mophine w/ a button I could press to deliver it when it was safe for the next dose.

I felt it didn't do much for the pain, but it did make me nauseous. I really didn't have too much pain so I stopped using it.

Re:Positive emotions are a myth

[Darinbob]

And that's good enough for a lot of people.

Re:Positive emotions are a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

So what happens when you "have no problems" and someone hands you a check for a million dollars?

Re: Positive emotions are a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

It hurts so bad! I gotta put it down right away, in to my bank account. Terrible thing, hate when that happens.

Acetaminophen kills many

[Anonymous Coward]

Acetaminophen kills many by accidental overdose or mixing with alcohol:
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1998/0112/6101042a.html

Re:Acetaminophen kills many

[garyisabusyguy]

Tylenol can cause significant liver damage with a moderate overdose, even recommended doses taken over a course of two weeks can cause moderate liver damage

The biggest problem occurs when a person takes many different medications, each of which has a normal dose of acetaminophen

Bullshit!

[EzInKy]

ASA, or aspirin, is first line treatment for heart attacks and all hospitals have it in stock, and plavix is prescribed a lot more often than warfarin for anti-platelet therapy. Research aspirin's side effects and you will understand why it just isn't handed out willy-nilly. If ASA were a new drug coming to market it is doubtful that it would be available over the counter.

Re:Bullshit!

[zm]

I'm sure acetaminophen would not be approved either, given the easy overdosing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

Paracetamol overdose results in more calls to poison control centers in the US than overdose of any other pharmacological substance, accounting for more than 100,000 calls, as well as 56,000 emergency room visits, 2,600 hospitalizations, and 458 deaths due to acute liver failure per year.

Re:Bullshit!

[EzInKy]

Which just goes to show you that people need to be better educated on how to compare the risks and benefits of the substances that they consume. We have a good understanding of what ASA does, and a good understanding of what APAP does. It is not beyond a person of normal intelligence to weigh the benefits and risks of each.

Re:Bullshit!

[Anonymous Coward]

Which goes to show that all medicines are also poisons, it just depends on the dose. I believe this observation was first credited to Paracelsus. So only take one toe of newt, not two!

Re:Positive emotions are a myth

[Shakrai]

When you think you're happy, it just means you're not miserable.

Sounds like someone has never had sex or a reasonably tough workout. :P

Re:Positive emotions are a myth

[Skidborg]

So... what about people who get high off of pain?

Re:Positive emotions are a myth

[TheReaperD]

Than they are really out of luck as they're out double. I wanted to say doubly screwed but, it just didn't seem likely.

Tylenol does nothing

[PopeRatzo]

I'm curious. Does Tylenol actually do anything for anyone? I've tried it for aches and pains, bruises, sprains and fever and it's never had the least effect.

Ibuprofen, yes, that works. Aspirin works. Other non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, all work to varying degrees. Tylenol? Nothing.

Do any of you use acetaminophen with good results? I know hospitals give it out, but here in the States, hospitals don't really give a shit about patients' pain. They probably just give Tylenol because it has so few contraindications.

Re:Tylenol does nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

I have lots of physical problems, and get Vicodin for it. But of course, only at a level low enough to do precisely jack and shit for the pain. It takes the edge off, a little, that's about it.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that acetaminophen (that they put in Vicodin along with the narcotics, so anyone trying to actually not have pain will be poisoned by the acetaminophen) causes suicidal thoughts. But that's just what I think in between tying the noose again.

Re:Tylenol does nothing

[drinkypoo]

I thought it might have helped me with a fever once. But nothing for pain.

I don't find ibuprofen to be particularly useful for pain, either. Aleve is pretty good. I had my best results with Orudis KT but I guess that was horrible or something so it was here and gone in a moment.

Re:Tylenol does nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

Does nothing for me. Chocolate is better than Tylenol.

Re:Tylenol does nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

For my last toothache (after replacing the filling) paracetamol worked for me. But my toothache was quite severe (in the end it needed a rootcanal). So I needed to interleave paracetamol with Ibuprofen, switching every two hours.
This allows for continues overlapping pain management, since you can only take paracetamol every four hours, and ibuprofen every four hours.

Paracetmol is cleaned up by the liver, and can become damaged by it due to long or over exposure.
Ibuprofen is cleaned up by the kidneys, and also can become damaged by it due to long or over exposure.

Re:Tylenol does nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

I use it for migraine headaches with decent success. For pain you have to start with a higher dose (1 g), possibly double that if it does not provide enough relief. For headaches a combination with caffeine helps. And I am taking verapamil for blood pressure, which boosts the effects of some painkillers (tylenol included). Interestingly enough, ibuprofen does nothing for me, or it has a rather disappointingly small fraction of the effect of tylenol.

Re:Tylenol does nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

For my recurrent headaches, paracetamol (acetaminophen) doesn't work at all. Aspirin has some effect but not enough. Ibu just works, and I haven't noticed any side effects.

Re:Tylenol does nothing

[badzilla]

I'm in the UK and paracetamol is a common pain-relieving drug available over the counter.It used to be available in packs of 100 tablets or so but there were a few deaths and it is now restricted to packs of 16 tablets and the shop is not allowed to sell you more than two packs. Whilst I was in the US I found I could not buy "paracetamol" anywhere as nobody had ever heard of it. I was able to buy acetaminophen however (not realising it was theoretically the same stuff.) I can tell you though it is not the same - acetaminophen does absolutely nothing for me whereas paracetamol works fine.

Re:Tylenol does nothing

[PopeRatzo]

More than theoretically the same, according to Wikipedia.

It's strange that one works for you and one doesn't. I don't doubt you one bit though. I have heard a lot about "bioidentical" generic drugs that work differently. I'd never heard of paracetamol until this discussion, but I live in the States.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:N-acetyl-p-aminophenol

[Anonymous Coward]

More like the usual trend of anti-Americanism no matter whether it makes sense or not. Watch it get modded +5 while anyone pointing out the absurdity wallows at 2 or less.

what do you mean side-effect?

[Anonymous Coward]

i don't want to feel happy. : (

Terrible statistics

[Anonymous Coward]

82 participants does not power a study to tell a difference of less than one point. These results are laughinly overstated. A reason to followup, perhaps, but nowhere near the number of participants (thousands) that would be needed in a trial like this.

Easy fix

[Anonymous Coward]

Add Hydrocodone!

Not surprising

[ArhcAngel]

It's not surprising they didn't know about the side effect given that they aren't even sure how it works to alleviate pain.

Re:Positive emotions are a myth

[narcc]

Well, this is Slashdot...

That's my experience.

[rnturn]

If I'm out of aspirin and get a headache at work, nobody has anything other than Tylenol which, for me at least, doesn't work worth a damn for a headache. Then I'm left with Tylenol-induced negative thoughts about having to work the rest of the afternoon with my head throbbing.

This'll cheer you up

[wonkey_monkey]

Why is there no aspirin in the jungle?

Because no-one's been able to establish a viable consumer base.

What a rubbish drug.

[Anonymous Coward]

Aspirin is fine and doesn't kill people via liver poisoning.

Tylenol Toxic To The Liver

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds about right, it's highly toxic to the liver, the FDA finally just reduced the amount allowed in prescription painkillers.

Re:Positive emotions are a myth

[dunkelfalke]

You jest, but people with major depression don't feel happy after either. Somewhat relaxed, sure, but still mostly miserable. That is, what a clinical depression does to people - they just can't enjoy anything anymore.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Positive emotions are a myth

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a small percentage of people will get pleasure from a workout.
I've tried even tough workout that ended up for me puking my guts out, never head pleasure from it.
Sex on the other hand...

Curious

[MagickalMyst]

"....Tylenol... has been in use for more than 70 years...but this is the first time that this side effect has been documented."

Now I'm very curious to know about the undocumented side effects of medications created in the last 25 years.

Lyrical update

[paiute]

I like pleasure spiked with pain
So I don' take no acetomenophane
No amenophane

-RHCP

Acetominophen is intended to kill you

[Anonymous Coward]

I used to be able to get 30mg codeine for pain management. I never got addicted despite decades of careful use.

Now I can only get Vicodin, which is 5mg hydrocodone and 300 to 500 mg acetaminophen. The adulterating acetaminophen is there to kill me. At some point, I will have had a few beers and I will have an attack, and I will take six to ten of these pills to avoid screaming continuously for six hours. And three days later I will die. It's inevitable. Then my death will be ruled to be a consequence of pain killer abuse - more than half the deaths attributed to prescription pain killers of this type are actually from liver failure, so it's not hard to see that those deaths are really acetaminophen overdoses due to US policy decisions that restrict doctors' choices, and not painkiller overdoses.

From Wikipedia:

In England and Wales an estimated 41,200 cases of paracetamol poisoning occurred in 1989 to 1990, with a mortality of 0.40%. It is estimated that 150 to 200 deaths and 15 to 20 liver transplants occur as a result of poisoning each year in England and Wales.[66] Paracetamol overdose results in more calls to poison control centers in the US than overdose of any other pharmacological substance, accounting for more than 100,000 calls, as well as 56,000 emergency room visits, 2,600 hospitalizations, and 458 deaths due to acute liver failure per year.[81] A study of cases of acute liver failure between November 2000 and October 2004 by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in the USA found that paracetamol was the cause of 41% of all cases in adults, and 25% of cases in children.

Tylenol is a killer. It's a eugenic treatment, not a medicine.

Re:Depression is a symptom

[GargamelSpaceman]

Depression is a symptom of the fundamental fact that life sucks.

Life is pain and suffering, and to create it is to condemn that life and it's progeny on average to hell. Not creating it means that niche will be filled with other life which will suffer on average.

From a utilitarian point of view, while your life might not be bad, life on average is expected to suck, and the most humane thing to do would be to destroy or sterilize life and remove it's very niche so other life can not evolve to fill it.

Piloting the Earth into the Sun would be a saintly action by utilitarian standards.

And unfortunately the utilitarians are right. Those smart enough to see it will tend toward depression if they think too much about it.

Numbing

[Translation Error]

Am I the only one who finds it completely unsurprising that a painkiller would have a numbing effect?

Benefits Don't Outweigh Liver Damage

[BrendaEM]

I just don't take Acetaminophen anymore. I can't say that it ever helped pain for me. Besides, it kills cats.

So, corporate life then.

[gestalt_n_pepper]

Except in IT, of course. It's all pain there, regardless.

Re:Positive emotions are a myth

[david_thornley]

Yeah. I started taking an antidepressant once, and noticed a month later that I wasn't even having any sexual thoughts. The depression had hit my sex life hard enough that I didn't really notice earlier.

Acetaminophen aka. Paracetamol

[YoungManKlaus]

just as an FYI for the rest of the world ...

Thanks for the info..

[franciscoeduca]

Thanks you, have a nice day :)) http://www.educa.net/curso/que...

Placebo

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what was used for the placebo. Maybe whatever they used for Placebo increased emotional lability? There is precedent of this happening in other studies.