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Joseph Goebbels' Estate Sues Publisher Over Diary Excerpt Royalties

wabrandsma writes with this from The Guardian: The estate of Joseph Goebbels, Adolf Hitler's minister of propaganda, is taking legal action against the publisher Random House over a new biography, claiming payment for the use of extracts from his diaries. Peter Longerich's biography of Goebbels is to be published in May (Random House/ Siedler). Longerich, who is the professor at Royal Holloway's Holocaust Research Centre, maintains this case has important censorship implications. 'If you accept that a private person controls the rights to Goebbels' diaries, then – theoretically – you give this person the right to control research,' he said.

37 of 301 comments (clear)

  1. Unless by captnjohnny1618 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Up front confession: haven't read the article, but unless the diaries are in the public domain, isn't this pretty cut and dry? If the diaries are in private hands, they're in private hands and you need permission to use their contents.

    1. Re:Unless by captnjohnny1618 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      FTA: the diaries "remain in copyright until the end of 2015. Copies are in public libraries."

      Just wait a year and then there REALLY won't be an issue. There isn't a clause in the legal code about whether or not a horrible human being can or can't get a copyright, so until there's a court decision (which seems like flirting with what can and can't be said... Which seems like free speech) this case seems extra baseless. The comment that this has implications on research seems misplaced to me. Am I missing something?

    2. Re:Unless by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because you own the diary, does not mean you own the contents. It is pretty clear what happens to the assets of criminals, especially with regard to crimes against humanity and especially when those assets have value derived from the commitment of those crimes. The content is public domain and any attempt to derive individual profit by claiming ownership of the content tend to place the person claiming that as also sharing the liability for how the value was derived for that content.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    3. Re:Unless by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In the US there are plenty of legal codes that do not allow a criminal to make money from their crimes, such as a mass murderer making money from publishing a autobiography

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    4. Re:Unless by captnjohnny1618 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Question that is to somewhat be annoying: but other's can publish biographies and make movies about their crimes? Seems like all movies that profit off of heinous acts should have to go to repay the victims of their crimes. I know that's not practical but if we're going to draw a line, seems kinda arbitrary to me. I'm not a legal expert though (no legal qualifications at all whatsoever actually. hah!)

    5. Re:Unless by onepoint · · Score: 2

      I don't think this would apply.
      dead guy before capture.
      private family journals belonging to an estate
      "crime does not pay royalty's" did not come into effect I think until the late 50's.

      --
      if you see me, smile and say hello.
    6. Re:Unless by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

      I am pretty sure when you quote small extracts with attribution it is always fair use. Either it is or every review, report, wiki, etc is illegally breaking copywrite law.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    7. Re:Unless by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 5, Informative

      Certainly he had a place of power in the Nazi elite, and he used that place to drive home a pet project:

      During 1942,[1] Goebbels continued to press for the "final solution to the Jewish question" to be carried forward as quickly as possible now that Germany had occupied a huge swathe of Soviet territory into which all the Jews of German-controlled Europe could be deported. There they could be worked into extinction in accordance with the plan agreed on at the Wannsee Conference convened by Heydrich in January. It was a constant annoyance to Goebbels that, at a time when Germany was fighting for its life on the eastern front, there were still 40,000 Jews in Berlin.[2] They should be "carted off to Russia," he wrote in his diary. "It would be best to kill them altogether."[3] Although the Propaganda Ministry was not invited to the Wannsee Conference, Goebbels knew by March what had been decided there.[4] He wrote:

              The Jews are now being deported to the east. A fairly barbaric procedure, not to be described in any greater detail, is being used here, and not much more remains of the Jews themselves. In general, it can probably be established that 60 percent of them must be liquidated, while only 40 percent can be put to work ... A judgment is being carried out on the Jews which is barbaric, but fully deserved.[5]

      1. Jewish Virtual Library
      2. Kershaw, Hitler, II, p 519
      3. Kershaw, Hitler, II, p 473
      4. Browning, The Origins of the Final Solution, p 415
      5. Kershaw, Hitler, II, p 494
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...

      This goes well past any notion of free speech and well into advocating and driving on the process of genocide

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    8. Re:Unless by Crashmarik · · Score: 2

      Your word of the day is CO Conspirator

      http://dictionary.reference.co...

      noun
      1. a fellow conspirator; associate or collaborator in a conspiracy.

      Now I have no idea what your definition of crime is, but planning, orchestrating and aiding and abetting the death of 3% of the population of the earth at the time (WWII deaths 60 million) should measure up.

    9. Re:Unless by koan · · Score: 2

      The fascinating thing is how long the term "The Jewish Question" has been around.

      People have used that term when considering what to do with Jews for hundreds of years.
      The thing most troubling about this is rarely do I see any explanation given for this behaviour, indeed facets of the behaviour exist all the way back to Biblical times.

      For so much hatred to arise, for so long, against a single people, there must be a reason, and one not as simple or dismissive as "hate" or "prejudice".

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    10. Re:Unless by Crashmarik · · Score: 3, Insightful

      60 million is the number now?

      Let me guess, if I don't believe your statements - which is a criminal offense in most of Europe - I should be thrown in jail?

      Sorry you have me confused with a European, or an American leftist. I disagree with you but I still support your right to make an idiot of your self in public as much as you can.

    11. Re:Unless by koan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Troubling is that most everyone on the street will know what happened to Jews in WW2 if you ask.

      If you mention Pol Pot they have no idea who he was, if you mention the Armenian genocide they will also have no idea what that is.
      In fact the only genocide well covered is the Jewish one, rarely are the 5 million others killed alongside them mentioned either.

      Hollywood has produced movie after movie, I don't blame for keeping history alive to protect themselves, but arguing who can use the term genocide, and the lack of similar effort for genocides that followed leave me wondering.

      The singular retelling of the "Holocaust" leaves everyone else out and is quite often used for propaganda purposes.

      In fact, not to sound crass, Goebbels would have been proud.

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    12. Re:Unless by Your.Master · · Score: 4, Informative

      60 million is the number now?

      Yes, 60 million is the number "now". Are you implying that at some point in the past almost 70 years, fewer people were thought to have died in WWII?

      Let me guess, if I don't believe your statements

      There are 5 references to the original crime, and a sixth to the definition of the actual definition of the crime committed. You gave 0 references.

      Here's some more references for the specific number of 60 million deaths broken down by country:
      http://www.nationalww2museum.o...
      http://necrometrics.com/20c5m....

      If you want to propose your own number, cite or shut up.

      I should be thrown in jail?

      Quit being a drama queen. You are literally the only person on this thread to mention jail or prison in this entire thread as of the time of writing. We get it; you're offended that people aren't neutral on the subject of Joseph Goebbels. You can get over it.

      If you don't care about him orchestrating war crimes, maybe you will accept he's a criminal due to him murdering six children (his own children) before his sucide? Cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.... Those were by his own hand.

      Here's a philosophical question. What's worse, murdering your own children by your own hand, or intentionally causing the deaths of 60 million people (the vast majority of whom should be presumed innocent of any crime), but at arm's length? I'd go with the latter, but they are both pretty damned bad.

      The only reason he wasn't tried for war crimes was he was already dead:

      http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/ar...

      The IMT decided not to try them posthumously so as not to create the impression that they might still be alive.

      It's not like it's unusual to not press charges on dead people. It doesn't do much good to anybody. Pretty safe bet he'd have been convicted.

      It's not like this was an accident, that he couldn't have known what he was doing. It's certainly not thought crimes. We don't know Goebbels' thoughts, we know his actions.

    13. Re:Unless by koan · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Josef Mengele

      In this link they discuss the ethics of using the data, and the data has been used several times that I know of.
      https://www.jewishvirtuallibra...

      --
      "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
    14. Re:Unless by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2

      There was an interesting problem within Christianity throughout the Dark and Middle ages where Christians would not allowed to act as moneylenders.
      This resulted in the Jewish population being pressed into 'marginalized' occupations of tax collection and money lending.
      These professions were profitable, but led to isolation from the Christian populations that they lived among.
      Beyond that the Lutheran Reformation made use of negative stereotypes and suggested that they be permanently oppressed or removed from Christian countries
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

      You might just say that Christians, in particular, the Lutherans were awful pikers and sought to use antisemitism over paying their debts

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    15. Re:Unless by Jason+Levine · · Score: 4, Informative

      Maybe the poster was confused* about Holocaust deaths versus "general WW2" deaths (including soldiers, etc).

      If you want to limit it to just the Holocaust, then Goebbels was guilty of (at least) being a co-conspirator in the deaths of 12 million people. This includes 6 million Jews and 6 million other people (political prisoners, gypsies, etc.).

      * Chances are, the poster wasn't confused. Especially if one looks to the poster's previous posts. There's one calling evolution "not established science" there so I wouldn't be surprised if he would think that the Holocaust isn't "established history" either.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    16. Re:Unless by afidel · · Score: 3, Informative

      His remains were already exhumed, burnt to ash, and the ashes thrown down the Elbe by the KGB, personally I think they should have been glassified in porcelain and placed in a toilet in the main synagog in Berlin so that the jews could piss on him for the rest of eternity, but I like symbolism like that =)

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    17. Re:Unless by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Particular to the antisemitism of the Nazis, one can look at the need to find a villain, some group that they could hold responsible for their economic depression (largely the result of WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles) that did not require that they question their Germanic superiority.

      If for example, they admitted that the Great War was a colossal screw up, it would insult the people that they were busy ass-kissing and complimenting into believing that there was some divine justification for mounting another world war. So it was awfully convenient to blame everything bad that was happening on social groups that had been historically blamed for things being bad, thus the Gypsies and homosexuals and Jews were convenient targets for the social rage that most Germans should have been pointing at themselves and their leaders who were busily stoking the furnaces of war all over again.

      Unfortunately it is a pattern of behavior that has not been the sole property of the Nazis. We can see it in American political parties, Putin's 'social engineering', even in the political manipulations of Israel as they simultaneously drive the Palestinians into a corner and blame their reaction as the reason that they must be treated so harshly

      We can expect this to continue for as long at the people who put these politicians into power fall for the same stupid tricks. The continued use by leaders of the Big Lie (Lie big and repeat the lie until people believe it to be true) and an unwillingness on the part of the populace to deal with the pain of Cognitive Dissonance (the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who is confronted by new information that conflicts with existing beliefs, ideas, or values) explains so much that is bad in this world.

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    18. Re:Unless by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You find it hard to condemn a guy who was given the job of justifying murdering six million Jews?

      You do understand, I trust, that Goebbels was more than just a propaganda writer, but a senior minister and, for a brief time, one of Hitler's chief heirs. But even the propaganda itself was horrifying in its vileness and evil, and even Goebbels had never done anything else, that would still make him one of the evilest men in hisotry.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    19. Re:Unless by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      You cannot charge a government official for helping to carryout a war.

      Slobodan who? And I must have imagined all that Nuremberg stuff.

      You aren't really very good at law, are you?

      http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    20. Re:Unless by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      those are mere words, did he kill or maim anyone?

      The standard Nuremburg defence (which didn't work BTW) was "I was only obeying orders", not "I was only giving them".

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    21. Re:Unless by Stephan+Schulz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unless you're planning to exhume his remains and put them on trial (It's been done, see Oliver Cromwell) Goebbels has committed no crimes. Yes he is a monster, but he is no criminal.

      That's nonsense. It's probably based on the legal principle "assumed innocent until proven guilty", but that fails in two ways. First, it's only a legal principle about how to treat suspects. It's not reality - guilt begins at the act, not at the conviction. And secondly, there is indeed plenty of proof of Goebbels crimes. There is no conviction (because he died before that), but that is also true for Bonnie and Clyde, Jack the Ripper, Richard Nixon, and even, as far as I know, Osama bin Laden.

      --

      Stephan

    22. Re:Unless by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The last 70 years of Jewish politics have been dominated by Holocaust fallout.

      Is that what we're calling Zionism now? At what point does the attempted genocide stop being 'fallout' and become its own thing?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    23. Re:Unless by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      As the propaganda minister, yes he would of been in control of spreading hatred for Jews, but it is hard to condemn that during wartime when spreading hatred and dehumanizing your enemies is standard practice.

      What? No, it isn't. It's very, very easy.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  2. Son of Sam by afidel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Doesn't Germany have the equivilent of a Son of Sam law where criminals and their heirs can't earn a profit from their heinous acts?

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  3. Godwined before it even started by user+no.+590291 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Takes "copyright Nazis" to a whole new level. Since Goebbel's diaries were associated with his crimes (as others have pointed out), I hope this doesn't get far. There is no reason his descendants should profit from his notoriety.

    1. Re:Godwined before it even started by Sloppy · · Score: 2

      But if Goebbels' heirs don't have an exclusive right to the diaries, then what incentive does Goebbels have to write diaries? We must continue to grant and enforce this monopoly, or else Goebbels' lack of return for his hard work will cause him to give up and get a job as a dishwasher. Is that the kind of world you want to live in?!

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  4. rule of law by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Longerich maintains this case has important censorship implications. “If you accept that a private person controls the rights to Goebbels’ diaries, then – theoretically – you give this person the right to control research,” he said.

    A private person controls the rights to Goebbels' diaries until a court of law declares otherwise or they fall into the public domain for some other reason. Courts should have done this in the aftermath of WWII, but Germans wanted these copyrights to remain valid in order to control such writings. The writings could also have come into the public domain as part of some settlement to civil claims against the Goebbels estate. But since neither seems to have happened, the copyright still appears to be valid.

    Arguing as if "research" should be exempted from the usual rule of law is particularly embarrassing for a German professor studying the Holocaust, since many atrocities were committed in the Third Reich because German academics considered themselves above the law and got away with it.

    If Longerich can't make a convincing argument that these works are in the public domain or that he falls under a well-defined legal exemption, he can join the rest of us and work towards shorter copyright terms, broader fair use exemptions, and less draconian laws. Of course, he could also demonstrate good will by licensing his own works under a CC license.

    1. Re:rule of law by kraut · · Score: 2

      Longerich maintains this case has important censorship implications. “If you accept that a private person controls the rights to Goebbels’ diaries, then – theoretically – you give this person the right to control research,” he said.

      A private person controls the rights to Goebbels' diaries until a court of law declares otherwise or they fall into the public domain for some other reason. Courts should have done this in the aftermath of WWII, but Germans wanted these copyrights to remain valid in order to control such writings.

      The drive for essentially infinite copyrights comes mainly from the Walt Disney Corporations and the rest of the US Media. Germany has perfectly effective legal sanctions in place to prohibit the distribution of Nazi propaganda - personally I think they're misguided, but they certainly doesn't rely on copyright law.

      Arguing as if "research" should be exempted from the usual rule of law is particularly embarrassing for a German professor studying the Holocaust, since many atrocities were committed in the Third Reich because German academics considered themselves above the law and got away with it.

      a) research isn't affected by copyright in the same way as publication
      b) The Third Reich was, on the whole, scrupulously legal. Once you have absolute power, passing laws to make your atrocities legal is trivial. Which is why the Nuremberg trials didn't apply German laws then, and why we need strong international enforcement of human rights laws today, regardless of national laws.

      --
      no taxation without representation!
    2. Re:rule of law by wvmarle · · Score: 2

      Research requires you to be able to buy a copy and read it, so you may use the information held in it. That's the case with lots of works out there, such as all scientific research publications. They all fall under copyright, which doesn't seem to hinder research all too much. Sure public domain and online access may be convenient, you can instead walk over to your local university library and read it there.

      Copying and republishing excerpts from another work may be restricted under copyright, or may fall under fair use. This is a different matter, and still won't hinder research. Nor does it have anything to do with censorship.

      The original author is just using words as "hindering research" and "censorship" to push his case, meaning to me he's probably broken copyright law and strongly feels himself he is indeed at the wrong side of the law.

  5. get to the end of the article by jonsmirl · · Score: 5, Informative

    'Initially, he feared that Schacht would take out an injunction against the book, preventing its publication altogether. Determined to avoid the destruction of any books “on the grounds of a claim from Goebbels”, he agreed to pay her 1% of the net retail price.

    He said: “When she wanted to cash in on that agreement, I said that agreement is null and void It’s against the moral rights You haven’t been entitled to sell me any words as those words lie within the Bavarian government.”'

    The author agreed to pay a 1% royalty and then reneged when the heir tried to collect. Of course that triggered a lawsuit.

  6. Copyrighting History by JonathanP.Bennett · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It seems that the bigger problem here is that modern copyright is so unreasonably long, historical documents are still under copyright. Anything over the original 28 year copyright term is really robbing the next generation of history.

    1. Re:Copyrighting History by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Brother, that's the truth.

      Even worse, is that we have works that have been in the public domain, sometimes for decades, and all of a sudden are protected under copyright again. It's a total scam and it's absolutely doing damage to future generations and to culture generally.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  7. Uh-Oh . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Did Nazi that coming . . . .

  8. Hmmm by koan · · Score: 2

    Longerich, who is the professor at Royal Holloway's Holocaust Research Centre, maintains this case has important censorship implications. 'If you accept that a private person controls the rights to Goebbels' diaries, then – theoretically – you give this person the right to control research,' he said.

    I don't agree with that assessment, especially when I watch the RIAA and MPAA go to work.

    His copyright hasn't expired, his family (or estate) has a right to control his works, and Longerich should pay up.
    However, I am basing this on US copyright law, I'm not sure if that applies here.
    http://www.copyright.gov/title...

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  9. Claiming to be a relative of Josef Goebbels? by SlovakWakko · · Score: 2

    And then asking for money for anything he ever did or said? That takes some arrogance. Anyway, I wouldn't fear to go to court over this. I can't see how a German court would rule in a way that would look like protecting the legacy of a big-time WW2 criminal. Ha, that would make for some interesting headlines in all major newspapers around the world :)

  10. There ARE other kinds of values. Movies!=money. by denzacar · · Score: 2

    Seems like all movies that profit off of heinous acts should have to go to repay the victims of their crimes.

    In ALL cases, every single one, EVER - victims became victims cause nobody heard or acted upon their cries for help.
    Victims are acutely aware of that.

    And they are aware of how valuable and invaluable it is to just have someone tell their story to the world.
    Even if it is told badly. Like with "Mississippi Burning".
    Which beats almost every single movie about Vietnam war - a war that was totally only about Americans and how THEY suffered.

    Which again beats every single movie NOT made about Jeju uprising, regarding the mass executions, burning of villages, rape and the following coverup which lasted for some 60 years.
    In a friendly, forward thinking, western democracy of South Korea.
    Just like the Bodo League massacre and systematic mass execution of hundreds of thousands of "communist sympathizers".
    Covered up for over 40 years... and clearly not considered a big deal.
    Not big enough to warrant a movie, anyway.

    Movies, like books, are primarily works of CULTURE AND ART AND STORYTELLING - and neither of those can ultimately belong to one person or a group of persons any more than the works of Shakespeare or the Bible or the Greek myths do.
    Someone can own a block of wood with a Mona Lisa painted on it - but no one can own Mona Lisa no more than anyone can own the letter 'A'.

    That's why we have copyright laws.
    To assure that those who create/produce that cultural wealth FOR EVERYONE get paid something in exchange for their effort in creating something that is only valuable if everyone has free access to it.
    Because you can't stop someone from seeing a movie or hearing a song - not if you ever want to make money out of showing them a movie or playing them a song.
    It must be free and available to everyone so you could charge money for it.
    Jerry Lewis can't charge people money for "The Day the Clown Cried". Even if he wanted to. Or if they did. And though they do.

    Human art is designed to be appreciated and experienced and absorbed by other humans.
    If it wasn't so easy for humans to experience that art and culture without paying or even trying (just quiz yourself about a movie you are not at all interested in - like Twilight or 50 Shades of Gray) no regulation would be needed.
    Hell... you can chase down a thief and make him either burn up the calories in that apple he stole from you, beat it out of him or make him throw it up.
    No amount of force or persuasion can make someone unwatch a movie or unhear a song. Sadly, in many cases.

    So we have laws to try to make sure that at least some people pay for what they willingly experience.

    BUT... as those laws are about monetary compensation to the creators of that art, we are fed a story that it is "all about the money" and that the movies are "just business".
    Which is not true even for the most commercial of all art - pornography.
    We can joke that it does not matter as long as there's sex in it - but we can't ignore the fact that there are porn STARS, and then there are "others".

    Meaning that even with a movie that is so cheap to produce, both artistically and monetarily, where actor's skills are down to simple physical attributes and looks, and which is produced to satisfy such a base need - people will demand more than just a "recording of two people fucking for money".

    And people will favor those who produce more than just a "recording" - thus creating popularity and fame for those performers who do "more than just recording".
    That favoritism will not create MORE money though. It will only cut out of the picture those who produce only "recordings".

    Even in such an utterly commercial field of film making, the goal is towards more than just money and money earned alone does not equal success nor is it the

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens