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UK Police Chief: Some Tech Companies Are 'Friendly To Terrorists'

An anonymous reader points out comments from Mark Rowley, the UK's national police lead for counter-terrorism, who thinks tech companies aren't doing enough to prevent terrorists from using their services. He said, "[The acceleration of technology] can be set up in a way which is friendly to terrorists and helps them ... and creates challenges for law enforcement and intelligence agencies. Or it can be set up in a way which doesn't do that." Rowley wouldn't name which companies in particular he's talking about, but he added, "Snowden has created an environment where some technology companies are less comfortable working with law reinforcement and intelligence agencies and the bad guys are better informed. We all love the benefit of the internet and all the rest of it, but we need their support in making sure that they're doing everything possible to stop their technology being exploited by terrorists. I'm saying that needs to be front and center of their thinking and for some it is and some it isn't."

27 of 230 comments (clear)

  1. anon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    OFF WITH HIS HEAD!

    1. Re: anon by monkeyzoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ...but we need their support in making sure that they're doing everything possible to stop their technology being exploited by terrorists. I'm saying that needs to be front and center....

      And I'm saying we need their support in making sure that they're doing everything possible to stop their technology being exploited by tyrannical mass-surveillance states that use the justification of "terrorism" to develop their ability to oppress their populations. I'm saying that needs to be front and center!

  2. Talk about blaming the messenger by Chatsubo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does one really have to state the obvious? Snowden didn't "create" anything.

    Companies don't find those entities untrustworthy because Snowden reported it, they find them untrustworthy because it turns out they are untrustworthy. If Snowden didn't report it they would've found it out eventually some other way.

    --
    > no, yes, maybe (tagging beta)
    1. Re:Talk about blaming the messenger by khasim · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He's part of the "system". Therefore, his view is that anyone who isn't directly supporting the "system" is opposing it. Which means you're opposing him and the "good" work that he is doing. You are friendly to the "terrorists".

      "Terrorists" in this case being defined as anyone Mark Rowley does not agree with.

      Personally, I think that there are far more corrupt cops and corrupt politicians and so on who would abuse their authority than there are terrorists who can attack us.

    2. Re:Talk about blaming the messenger by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 4, Funny

      Personally, I think that there are far more corrupt cops and corrupt politicians and so on who would abuse their authority than there are terrorists who can attack us.

      Nice job, asshole. You're letting the terrists win. If WE say THEY are The Bad Guys(TM), then they're The Bad Guys, end of discussion. We have to keep data on everyone, just to keep The Bad Guys in check, and to keep YOU safe. Also, we need to be able to drone-strike any civilian at any point on the planet to protect your children and puppies and kittens from being indiscriminately killed by religious extremists living a Middle Ages lifestyle on the other side of the planet.

  3. Benjamin Franklin got it right by Required+Snark · · Score: 3, Informative

    “Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
    1. Re:Benjamin Franklin got it right by NicBenjamin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He never actually said that. The "liberty" was "essential liberties," and the security was "a little, temporary safety." Which completely changes the meaning of the sentence from don't-think-authority-BAD to a desire for critical thinking and balance between the needs of everyone as a whole (ie: the government in a democracy) and the needs of the individual.

      Which makes sense if you look at what he actually did. Prior to the US Constitution there was no actual Federal government, there was a late-18th-century version of the UN Security Council called Congress. In theory it was supreme in many matters, but without it's own bureaucracy/Army/etc. it had trouble doing things like convincing Connecticut to give up it's claim to Chicago. This anti-freedom monster everyone worries about (the Federal government) was actually created by him at the Constitutional Convention. The Articles of Confederation government was unable to provide any "safety" from being reconquered by the Brits, largely because it couldn't directly affect anyone's individual liberty. It could not even tax you directly, it had to convince your state to do that, and then turn over the money to Congress.

  4. F Mark Rowley by putaro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I regard the threat to my privacy and civil liberty by criminals like Mark Rowley as much more significant than that posed by terrorists. Snowden didn't make companies add more encryption. Overreach by government agencies caused it. They're just trying to shoot the messenger but they created the problem by circumventing or ignoring the law.

    1. Re:F Mark Rowley by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They're just trying to shoot the messenger but they created the problem by circumventing or ignoring the law.

      The real problem here - And finish reading this post before you start shooting at me - Rowley has it absolutely correct. Tech companies do behave in ways friendly to terrorists.

      Except, he has committed a fundamental attribution error by assuming they do in support of actual terrorism. Tech companies don't support terrorism - They support fairness, they support security, they support usability, for everyone. Unfortunately, "safe" and "secure" includes "from government tampering", and "fair" and "everyone" includes terrorists.

      If the encryption software I use doesn't block all attempts to intercept my data, whether by flaw or by design, I will use something that does. Simple as that. Tech companies behave in ways friendly to terrorists because tech companies can't readily discriminate between the actions of crackers and governments, between privacy advocates and terrorists, between a legal court-ordered wiretap and an NSA hijacking - Nor should they.

  5. Define 'Terrorists' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Saudi Arabia indiscriminately bombed Yemen for 3 weeks, untold number of civilians were killed

    Saudi claims that the Houthis are the terrorists, but to the residents in Yemen who have their domiciles bombed and family members killed, the Saudis are the terrorists

    Hamas launched their rockets into Israel, Israel retaliates with full scale massive military campaign --- Gaza Strip almost flattened as a result

    While Hamas are terrorists (nobody can deny it) the Israelis are also not that 'non-terrorists' either

    Now, let me ask you guys ... who supply the Israelis and the Saudis with the bombs?

    So this guy in London is saying that ISP is 'terrorist friendly' --- but of course, many ISPs around the world are in very good terms with Uncle Sam, the supply of bombs to both Saudi Arabia and to Israel

    1. Re:Define 'Terrorists' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You forgot to add that if Hamas was playing by the US of A rules they would be called freedom fighters for peace justice and democracy... not terrorists...

    2. Re:Define 'Terrorists' by dotancohen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hamas launched their rockets into Israel, Israel retaliates with full scale massive military campaign --- Gaza Strip almost flattened as a result. While Hamas are terrorists (nobody can deny it) the Israelis are also not that 'non-terrorists' either

      How did the US retaliate when Al Qaeda attacked them? How many Afghans were killed in that campaign, and how long did it last?

      How did the US retaliate when Iraq attacked them? How many Iraqis were killed in that campaign, and how long did it last? For that matter, exactly _when_ did Iraq attack the US?

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    3. Re: Define 'Terrorists' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Iraq didn't attack the USA. The USA used 9/11 as an excuse to invade Iraq. After (some of) the people caught on, they used WMDs as an excuse. After some more people caught on, they switched to using "spreading democracy" as an excuse. Of course, the real reason had to do with oil and getting Halliburton rich, but most of the public still believes the democracy ruse.

      As for Afghanistan, we didn't really do anything to them. Sure, we got Bin Laden, but by that time he was almost dead anyway and that was just for political posturing by Obama, not to stop any real threat.

    4. Re:Define 'Terrorists' by msobkow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Like UN schools being used as refugee camps, eh?

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    5. Re:Define 'Terrorists' by stealth_finger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You forgot to add that if Hamas was playing by the US of A rules they would be called freedom fighters for peace justice and democracy... not terrorists...

      Just like the brave, glorious Afghan mujahedeen that where fighting for their freedom against the vile Russian invaders. Everyone knows the rest.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    6. Re: Define 'Terrorists' by stealth_finger · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As for Afghanistan, we didn't really do anything to them. Sure, we got Bin Laden, but by that time he was almost dead anyway and that was just for political posturing by Obama, not to stop any real threat.

      Did you miss the whole war in Afghanistan? Quite a bit happened before the seals choppered into a complex then shot him and dumped his body in the ocean. Is anyone even sure that happened, if it did I doubt it did the way they say it did..

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    7. Re:Define 'Terrorists' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're deliberately distorting and misrepresenting the text of 1441. 1441 required that Iraq comply with weapons inspections. Those inspections took place and no WMDs were found, up to the point that the US decided to say "fuck it" to the UN and go to war. The US was the one who championed going to war with Iraq, not the UN, and the UN rejected the use of force against Iraq.

    8. Re: Define 'Terrorists' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Quite a bit happened before the seals choppered into a complex then shot him and dumped his body in the ocean. Is anyone even sure that happened, if it did I doubt it did the way they say it did..

      Nearly everybody in the complex killed and who remained has never even been brought forward to account for events. The most hated man was shot on sight instead of being drug into a kangaroo court to be humiliated for a year before being put to death just like every other villain the US put its hands on. His body was respectfully buried in a conveniently unrecoverable and unspecific location. The trumpets weren't even continuously sounded for political and military benefit with no end when even that silly "mission accomplished" presentation was stretched far too long.

      Yeah, I'd imagine you are right. One big obvious question is: why isn't anyone talking about it?

    9. Re:Define 'Terrorists' by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Israel didn't start it, Hamas did.

      No. The UK started it with the Balfour Declaration, then the Zionist Organization followed by with an invasion. Arabs started to resist the invasion, and the cycle began, with many sins since then by many players. But the origin was British colonialism and Jewish millenarianism. And the recent and ongoing brutality has been primarily of Israeli origin.

      Who are the terrorists? The ones launching cowardly, hidden attacks, or the ones defending themselves?

      There is nothing "cowardly" about hiding. That's how you win a battle. It's why we invented camouflage. That's the same charge the British leveled against American colonial fighters, that they wouldn't stand out in the open wearing bright colors and be shot like Real Men.

      And the Palestinians have been on the defensive since 1917, that's the historical fact.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    10. Re:Define 'Terrorists' by kilfarsnar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not gonna defend that shit, but who was the one who took the ancestral land of a people, forcibly evicted them, and forces them to live in poverty in what is basically a huge open-air prison camp? It's not Hamas. Don't act as if Israel didn't start this shit, they did.

      Then you'd best learn some history. After all, the ones who didn't run and stayed in Israel are citizens to this day. Mainly Druze, the ones who ran when the arab countries said "we're going to kill every jew there, and you'll get the land afterwards" are the ones that are living in your 'open-air' camps that have a standard of living beyond what most do in the other arab countries.

      So, you're saying that no one was forced off of their land and everyone there could have stayed there and just had the state of Israel created around them? Were these people consulted about having a new nation created where they currently lived?

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    11. Re:Define 'Terrorists' by kilfarsnar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While Hamas are terrorists (nobody can deny it) the Israelis are also not that 'non-terrorists' either

      No, they're not terrorists. Retaliating against murderous ideologues, and removing their ability to kill, is not terrorism. Maybe you'll learn that someday.

      You understand that that's the way Hamas views Israel, right? I'm just saying, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    12. Re: Define 'Terrorists' by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The Halliburton reasoning is as tired as the WMD reasoning. The real reason we went into Iraq is because sanctions were failing, countries were wanting to pull out of them after a decade of them failing to cause Saddam to be overthrown, and we wanted to take a mulligan and try again.

      The reason we went into Iraq is that our government regretted leaving Saddam Hussein in power and were determined to correct the mistake. 9/11 provided the best possible cover for that. Contrary to popular opinion, politicians aren't exactly the same as marionettes that dance on the strings of corporations. There is definitely conflict of interest, but the politicians had a very specific idea of how they think the world needs to look. That is why they got into politics to begin with. The ability to exercise power by politicians who were hoping to change the world is why we went into Iraq, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise. That's worth more to a politician than a billion dollars in campaign funds, because they only take the billion so that they get the chance to do things like start wars or make a name for themselves as peace brokers.

      They thought that they could overthrow Saddam and realign the Middle East more firmly in the US camp by dint of freeing the population, who would be duly grateful. The miscalculation was that even if such a thing was possible in 1991, it wasn't going to happen in 2003. Sadly, I think the problem with the war and its outcome was that it was insufficiently cold-blooded in approach. We didn't do the math, and we clearly didn't understand the facts on the ground. It has every hallmark of the use of a professional military to create a situation that was completely bungled in the hands of the politicians it was handed off to. As a conspiracy, it was a poor one. As some politician's wish fulfillment, it makes perfect sense.

    13. Re:Define 'Terrorists' by Uecker · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nonsense. Many important allies of the US such as Germany and France opposed the invasion. The veto of the Russians was not a slap in the face (this is business as usual). A slap in the face was that the foreign minister of a close ally directly questions the "evidence" for WMD presented officially as justification to invade a foreign country.

  6. A Very Public Warning by rtb61 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A police chief that clearly stands for the police state, where public and private partnerships arbitrarily decide who is guilty and who is not and deny access to those them deem to be what ever they deem them to be for what ever reason they deem ie guilt upon accusation without proof. So how do you keep terrorists from attacking your customers without securing your services. How do you adhere to principles of a countries constitutions when you start ignoring them to convenience the police state.

    So Mr Police Chief, why are convicted terrorists allowed full access to the internet because until you prove you case, they are not terrorists they are suspects. So the headline should be "Too many corporations allow secure access to the Internet for potential suspects of crime". As for suspect being less informed about police tactics, hey shit for brains Police chief, all of your tactics are by law required to be subject to public review and be taken into account at the next election as a measure of how well that government is handling the justice system. A citizen has a right to review all the actions of a government and then they get to choose whether they approve and vote for them again or whether they disapprove and vote for someone else.

    --
    Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  7. Not just the tech industry either by Floyd-ATC · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Car manufacturers aren't doing enough to prevent terrorists from driving cars. Oil companies aren't doing enough to prevent terrorists from using diesel and petrol. Food companies aren't doing enough to prevent terrorists from eating food. Pencil manufacturers aren't doing enough to prevent terrorists from writing. Shoe manufacturers aren't doing enough to prevent terrorists from walking. I could go on but I won't. He probably will. Snowden has made a few more people aware of the fact that many people who work in law enforcement agencies and intelligence services think they have a right to ignore the law. Particularly the law in other countries.

    --
    Time flies when you don't know what you're doing
  8. What a load of bullcrap by TrentTheThief · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Snowden did not create a hostile environment for governments and intelligence agencies. The actions of governments accomplished that entirely on their own.

    Mr. Rowley make's his statement based on a 1950's mindset where "the government is your friend and can be trusted" was a common theme. Well, unfortunately, that illusion was dispelled many, many years ago after repeated episodes of government scandals, outright lies, and law breaking.

    “If you once forfeit the confidence of your fellow citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem. It is true that you may fool all of the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all of the time; but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. -Abraham Lincoln, Speech at Clinton, Illinois, September 8, 1854.”

    Governments and their intel organizations fucked away the public's trust long ago.

    The remainder of Mr's Rowley's statement is yet another poke intended to plant an idea that the public should support laws against the civilian use of encryption for data and communications.

    Don't let that 1984 supporter bullshit you.

    Snowden has created an environment where some technology companies are less comfortable working with law reinforcement and intelligence agencies and the bad guys are better informed. We all love the benefit of the internet and all the rest of it, but we need their support in making sure that they're doing everything possible to stop their technology being exploited by terrorists. I'm saying that needs to be front and center of their thinking and for some it is and some it isn't."

  9. And I Bet He Still Locks His Front Door by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Front door locks restrict movement. Police, firefighters and ambulance techs must stop and deal with a locked front door in an emergency. This wastes precious time. Therefore all front door locks should be removed. This follows from the same sort of logic this supposed expert used.

    I say supposed expert because he obviously has no business being in that job. He's admitting he's bad at it and blaming any past, current or potential failures on other people and organizations. If he had the slightest understanding of security he would have at least some sense of how incredibly irresponsible his attempt at blaming and shaming really is.

    Part of the reason he won't name names? They'd have their own staff experts hammer him for his incompetence.