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Native Hawaiian Panel Withdraws Support For World's Largest Telescope
sciencehabit writes: Trustees of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs (OHA) – a state agency established to advocate for native Hawaiins — voted Thursday to withdraw their support for construction of the Thirty-Meter Telescope (TMT) on the summit of the Mauna Kea volcano. The vote follows weeks of protests by Native Hawaiians who say the massive structure would desecrate one of their most holy places. The protests have shut down construction of the telescope, which would be the world's largest optical telescope if completed. The vote, which reverses a 2009 decision to endorse the project, strikes a powerful if symbolic blow against a project that, for many native Hawaiians, has come to symbolize more than a century of assaults against their land, culture and sovereignty.
More religious whackjobs blocking progress. If they own the land, or represent the majority in a democracy, so be it; otherwise a does of "separation of church and state" would be welcome here. No one should get a free pass on being a religious whackjob simply because they aren't a Christian whackjob.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
If that is acceptable, what about my claim that science is my religion, and the native Hawaiins are desecrating what I declare as holy land? Will they be forced to stop doing so too?
Probably not, which is why we shouldn't allow them to stop us for this reason just the same.
I'd prefer having the support of local people. However, religious belief too often stands in the way of telescopic investigation of our universe. Perhaps there can be something done so they feel it is part of their culture after all.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
I'm sure the comments here will take into account nuanced perspectives of Hawaiian native history and culture,
You mean the history culture of shaking down any deep pocket involved in a large construction project ?
Peter Brady nods his head sagely....
Nope, I'm finished feeling guilty for the acts of previous generations. The islands are part of the United States now. They have their votes and councils. They have their local government. And this isn't about religion anyway, it's about declaring as much independence as possible. Fuck that, the war is over. I don't care that they want to make a statement. I do care that they want to make their statement at the cost of science. I'm not sure whether I'm disappointed we're not using eminent domain here but I don't think these objections are valid.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
All this particular interest group is doing by going against good science is making is less likely they'll get what they want.
The world goes the way the most powerful choose it shall go. So it has ever been, and likely will continue to go for the foreseeable future. Going against the good things the powerful do is just one more very efficient way to get them to consider your desires irrelevant -- a really poor way of trying to get the powerful to use said power in your favor.
These people are not "natives", either. They didn't evolve there. They're immigrants and descendants of immigrants. just like all of us on the US mainland, basically anywhere but (probably) Africa. Perhaps what you meant to say was "descendents of the earliest known settlers." Or perhaps "invaders" is more accurate.
Another thought along the lines of the powerful do what the powerful want to do... do you think the earliest of these folks took the time to see if the other local life forms wanted them and their changes on and around these islands? Did the fish want to be speared, for instance?
It's all a matter of perspective and power. These people seem to have neither.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Blaming this on "religion" is a cop-out. They're waving their "religion" in your face because they know you will crawl on your belly over hot glass to avoid "offending" their "native" sensibilities.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
They also point to management audits from the 1990s and 2000s that found the summit area was being mismanaged by the University of Hawaii and state government and say those issues should be resolved before any more telescopes are built.
That sounds like a pretty damned good argument to me, by itself. Is the summit area currently being mismanaged? Or were those audits merely cash grabs themselves? Surely someone knows more, given the backgrounds of readers of this site. Unless they've all been scared off by now between beta, auto-playing videos, and slashverdicements.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
wikipedia states
The name Laniakea means "immeasurable heaven" in Hawaiian, from lani for "heaven" and akea for "spacious" or "immeasurable". The name was suggested by Nawa'a Napoleon, an associate professor of Hawaiian language at Kapiolani Community College. The name honors Polynesian navigators who used heavenly knowledge to navigate the Pacific Ocean.[3][7]
And perhaps more importantly, the Nature letter and preprint
So just close down the the entire project in Hawaii like right now. I am sure that the government and the people of Chile will welcome the jobs and economic spinoffs.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
What if France wanted to build an oceanic research station on the D-Day beaches where the Allies landed and died?
That strikes me as just fine.
Maybe it would be reasonable to ask them to add a small section as a memorial to those who fought and died to free France and perhaps those people could be honored by future research done in their name, since such a research station only exists built by the French because of it.
So sure, go ahead... dedicate the building to the allied soldiers, it would be a nice tribute.
What if Poland wanted to build a university on some of the land that is currently the preserved concentration camps?
What a great way to slap the face of the Nazi's by building our future on top of their evil. You could use it as a learning opportunity for all future students. You could put a memorial to the whole thing right in the center of the common grounds of the university. Millions of students over the years would have direct contact with it and be forced to see it on a regular basis, rather than once in a lifetime on a field trip during high school.
What about all the outrage when some company wants to mine in some nature preserve?
That's fine, all of Earth is one big nature preserve... Perhaps 25% of all the profit from the mining could be used to double the size of the preserve and establish a fund to return the land to better condition when they are done.
Why don't we build office towers in Arlington Nation Cemetery?
You could, but it would be pointless, there is perfectly good land half a mile over that works as well, and no one is asking to do that.
Avatar quote that comes to mind: "You throw a stick in the air around here it falls on some sacred fern, for Christ's sake!"
This is simple, obviously.
The 90% of the population that is not of native ancestry should be removed, immediately, and relocated to the mainland.
The observatories should be shut down, and the many species of native vegetation and native wildlife commonly found at the summit should be restored, immediately.
The closest blood relatives of each island's ali'i family should be found, and be provided with the necessary military gear to establish local fiefdoms, maintaining a culturally appropriate level of strife as per the pre-Kamehameha unification (he was supported in his efforts by westerners, which gave him an unfair advantage.)
Finally, we should provide all necessary needed legal consultations to restore the Kapu System, and funds as needed to restore the local theocracy. Remember, abolishment of the kapu system was a cynical ploy by Kamehameha II, based upon consultation with Europeans (particular the British, the global meddlers), and was self serving in that it assured the continuation of the monarchy, preventing the rise of Ali'i to challenge the "King", which was also a western concept.
Of course, this system may seem barbaric by western standards, but who are we to judge? Without feeling a connection to Pele, what right do we have to interfere with their ancestral system of rule, based upon the age old principle of " Might Makes Right"?
Are you in the habit of erecting obvious strawmen, or was this particular bit of off-target re-interpretation just special for me?
Although it does apply to this group -- they're telling the government, "give us what we want, or we'll try to hose some good science" So perhaps your post wasn't a strawman after all. Perhaps you're just confused as to who the culprit is in this situation.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
A policy of submitting to demands not to build in holy places is an invitation to abused by jerks. In Australia, there's no place you can go where an aboriginal won't say "That's a holy place." Even if they've never been near the place. I think they make it up as they go.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
> Seriously, I know this whole campaign is a scam whipped up by the Greens.
You are a fucktard.
Every telescope built on that mountain has been protested. The problem has been that the people protesting are the weakest among us. It took the advent of wide-spread social media for their voices to be heard.
By fairy tales and fantasy.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
In one week the Hawaiians will be begging for the telescope to be built.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
The mismanagement reports of the 1990s and 2000s existed when the OHA voted in favor of this project in 2009. The size and scope of the telescope hasn't changed since then.
What is different? Why was this acceptable to them in 2009 but not 2015?
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
The issue is that all of those places are somewhere something else happened or is. The summit of Mauna Kea is a barren desert, with no relics and very little (if any) wildlife, for the same reason that makes it so attractive for astronomy (high altitude and very low humidity or rainfall). The natural and ancient sites (including a quarry, clearly mining was ok) are lower down and protected by reserves.
FlyHelicopters makes a good point, too ...
I doubt you ever felt guilty in the first place. Too often are people unaware that their wealth, their success, which they attribute to themselves, is actually the fruit of suppressing others, in the past and in the present. And then we don't care anymore. As others remarked, this is sad.
Mehana Kihoi. ... âoeWhen you place your hands and your bare feet into the soil, you feel that warmth, you feel her heart."
Liar. Had you ever placed your hands and bare feet into the soil at 13,000 feet atop Mauna Kea you'd know that the only things you feel are hypothermia and hypoxia. It's friggin' cold up there, and the air is barely breathable.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
Most posts here I see are talking about the merits of native title, what it means to be able to claim native title, and who is the native in the first place (Native Title is what land ownership is called in some countries). But really the core point is written write in the summary:
The vote, which reverses a 2009 decision to endorse the project
They endorsed the project and now have withdrawn their support after construction has started. Talk about screwing over a major project. Is there any recourse the project has to prevent them from pulling shit like that again? In commercial terms a breach of contract like this would result in an incredible payout to the affected parties.
The company I work for has been through some similar crap before. One of our projects was delayed by 3 years due to someone claiming native title on the land where it was supposed to go ahead. The kicker... it was reclaimed land that was built in the 60s. Somehow I don't think a 300 year old aboriginal tribe had a campsite in the middle of the ocean. The courts agreed but it still presented a huge cost to fight the legal battle and a 3 year delay in the project.
People who pull stunts like this should have their right to making such claims revoked or should have to pay compensation to the projects they screw over.
Stop all federal funding for new construction projects in all of Hawaii. Cancel everything. Close all federally funded operations. Close Pearl Harbor and move the base back to the mainland. Cut all federal spending for Hawaii, including energy, roads, and education.
There, now Hawaii is protected.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
Oh is this the standard now? Where do you live? I'm sure I can find someone's ancestors to sue you for the land. Idiot.
Too often are people unaware that their wealth, their success, which they attribute to themselves, is actually the fruit of suppressing others, in the past and in the present. And then we don't care anymore.
Are you referring to the leaders and the wealthy of the 1800's (the Hawaiian Royalty who gained their position through conquest) or those of the 2000's (the US)? Because your point applies equally well to the current government and the previous government that some are thinking of as the good old days. You do realize that some of the Hawaiian holy sites are holy because that is where the conquerors from another island who declared themselves royal had massacred the locals who dared to not recognize them and/or resisted? The unification of the Hawaiian islands by the royalty was a particular bloody affair.
NIMBY's suck farts off dead chickens in August. And if you've ever smelt a rotting chicken in the August heat, you know how revolting that is.
The job of a NIMBY is to do whatever they can to obstruct progress. Whether they do it to "protect property values", "save the children", or "stand up for our (religious) rights", they all do the same thing in the end: Say "No" without providing any options.
Every nation in this world is full of conquered peoples. There are more "sacred places" than you can shake a stick at, and I challenge you to pick a direction and walk twenty miles without running into someone's "sacred" place. Yet when is the last time you ever saw them worshipping there?
Yeah. Right.
Never.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
On the one hand you have an indigenous population that basically had their land stolen from them and their country coopted by the US.
Nothing new for the US only it happened a good deal later than usual. But most Americans believe we should be respectful of these people and do our level best to see that we do what we can to make the nastiness of whole situation more bearable. To that end, they were given exclusive control over one of the smaller Islands along with a lot of rights and subsidies etc. Does that make up for what happened? Nope. Nothing short of leaving the islands and making restitution can really make up for it. But that isn't going to happen.
Then you have the issue of how the islands are used now that they are a US state? The natives are blocking a lot of stuff that makes things difficult. They have some sort of religious connection to the volcano and that makes using it for anything difficult. Geothermal power for example could power all the islands. Instead we tank in diesel fuel to run diesel generators. Some sort of compromise needs to be worked out there. Maybe let the natives help design and then operate the power plants and telescopes? I think the power companies and scientists would be happy to make them administrators of these facilities etc so long as they took up the positions in good faith.
It just seems like these things are hitting impasses for no good reason. The natives aren't getting their islands back. But they can take a leadership role in various controversial projects if they are worried about their sacred spaces being desecrated. No one wants to offend them. Help us not do that and offer a more constructive solution besides banning vital technology.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
Congratulations, fellow Slashdotters, for (predictably?) hewing to the opposite end of the spectrum from the people in the articles.
If their side says, "Hawaiian culture and spirituality is of paramount importance, your science has no place on our sacred mountain," calling them extreme and then saying that science is of paramount importance and their culture and spirituality should be given no weight whatsoever... doesn't make you look like the good guys. In fact, it only gives them more evidence that supporters of science are every bit as extreme and closed-minded.
I work full-time at a big telescope on Maunakea, and have a further part-time job using one of the smaller telescopes on Maunakea, as well as other jobs outside astronomy. I go to Maunakea in person, and interact with TMT's opponents in person. The situation is a lot more nuanced to me than a bunch of Internet Tough Guys could hope to begin to understand, but I just wanted to let you know that no, you're actually not helping.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
Skimming this comment tsunami makes me sad.
Being a phisicist by training and a hacker by trade, I still can't understand this "science trumps everything" and, even worse "economics trumps everything" attitude, which is just as blind an ideology as the worst of all religions.
Calling dissenting opinions "nutjobs", "whackos" or whatever doesn't help in the least: we have to respect each other, discuss, and reach a consensus. Many times this consensus won't please "us" or "them", but that's how life works.
Most of the comment tsunami here feels like the worst of crusades. "SHOW THEM THE CROSS!" "BURN THEM WITH FIRE!" "WE'RE FUCKING RIGHT!. Disgusting.