Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Native Hawaiian Panel Withdraws Support For World's Largest Telescope

Posted by timothy on from the not-in-their-backyard dept.

sciencehabit writes: Trustees of the Office of Hawaiian Affairs (OHA) – a state agency established to advocate for native Hawaiins — voted Thursday to withdraw their support for construction of the Thirty-Meter Telescope (TMT) on the summit of the Mauna Kea volcano. The vote follows weeks of protests by Native Hawaiians who say the massive structure would desecrate one of their most holy places. The protests have shut down construction of the telescope, which would be the world's largest optical telescope if completed. The vote, which reverses a 2009 decision to endorse the project, strikes a powerful if symbolic blow against a project that, for many native Hawaiians, has come to symbolize more than a century of assaults against their land, culture and sovereignty.

33 of 286 comments (clear)

  1. More religious whackjobs by lgw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    More religious whackjobs blocking progress. If they own the land, or represent the majority in a democracy, so be it; otherwise a does of "separation of church and state" would be welcome here. No one should get a free pass on being a religious whackjob simply because they aren't a Christian whackjob.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    1. Re:More religious whackjobs by MrBigInThePants · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are wrong. Having seen this in action first hand in my own country I can predict this has NOTHING to do with religion.

      Typically this is more about the gravy not being forthcoming to the local "leaders".

    2. Re:More religious whackjobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And who exactly should the land "revert to"? Are you going to base this on genetic tests? Should it go back to the first wave of polynesian settlers or the second wave? Maybe it should be purged of all humans and revert to its natural state? Or perhaps handed to the British? Or perhaps the Japanese, who would have conquered it?

      Settlement and migration are normal parts of human societies. The land I was born in changed hands dozens of times over the past two thousand years. The idea that the people who first landed on some piece of land have special dibs and eternal rights to self-government is dumb in the extreme. Hawaii should be happy that it became part of the US.

      On the other hand, on balance, I'm not sure the US is getting much out of it; so perhaps Hawaii should be kicked out of the union altogether. We'd sure save a lot of money in subsidies.

    3. Re:More religious whackjobs by jmichaelg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hard to worry about what happened over a 100 years ago. Had the issue bothered a lot of people, Hawaii wouldn't have voted to join the U.S. in 1959 by 93%.

      The "rightful owners" wouldn't stand a chance against whatever power chose to occupy the islands were they to secede from the union.

      It's hard to see this as anything more than a routine "pay us off and we'll shut up" shakedown.

    4. Re:More religious whackjobs by cavreader · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Just how far back into the past are you willing to go to start righting all the wrongs in the world? Every square foot of land on the planet has been invaded and occupied by an ever changing cast of characters with the most strategic pieces of land having had their borders drawn in blood more than once. And the blood letting is still ongoing right this minute in many places around the world. The entirety of human civilization has been built upon might equals right. Civilizations get built using violence and get torn down with violence and that pattern still holds true today and will most likely continue to hold true until the planet is just a big radioactive ball of lifeless dirt. So how about you go start righting some wrongs perpetrated by people who have been dead for a few hundred years but I'd advise you to build up a significant arsenal before starting on your noble quest. Or you could just be happy with the fact that a small number of US citizens exercised their rights to stop a construction project on land they would rather keep the way it is. It doesn't really matter why they were against the project but I have seen people do the exact same thing to keep a strip mall from being built on land near where they live just to keep the traffic down. No need of sacred burial grounds or state sovereignty issues to bolster their arguments.

    5. Re:More religious whackjobs by chipschap · · Score: 2

      On the other hand, on balance, I'm not sure the US is getting much out of it; so perhaps Hawaii should be kicked out of the union altogether. We'd sure save a lot of money in subsidies.

      I live in Hawai`i (though not a native Hawaiian), and I'd like to know what those subsidies are that other states don't also get. The chart here:

      http://www.theatlantic.com/bus...

      shows Hawai`i ranked 29th in the "givers and takers" calculation, in other words, right in the middle of the pack.

    6. Re:More religious whackjobs by garyisabusyguy · · Score: 2

      I would suggest that Hawaii's strategic place in the Pacific has lead to a considerable influx of military money, military personnel and associated increase in the economy related to it

      The Philippines, which had demanded that the US Navy abandon Subic Bay in the 90's, is welcoming the of the US Navy's return with open arms because of the boost to the economy
      http://www.stripes.com/news/us...

      Sure, it is nice to harbor old-timey notions and traditions, but be careful that they do not have long term downsides

      --
      Wherever You Go, There You Are
    7. Re:More religious whackjobs by murdocj · · Score: 2

      Well, no, otherwise they would have been deliberately starved, exterminated, and the remaining population dispersed around the empire. They sure wouldn't have to worry about lawsuits.

    8. Re:More religious whackjobs by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Native Hawaiians had the misfortune of living on one of the most strategically important pieces of land on the planet.

      How is that a "misfortune"? They are better off than anyone else in Polynesia, and have one of the highest standards of living in the world. If they want to stick to the old ways and try to eke out a living by trying to grow taro in volcanic ash, they can still do so. Yet for some strange reason, few choose to do that.

    9. Re:More religious whackjobs by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      I would suggest that Hawaii's strategic place in the Pacific has lead to a considerable influx of military money, military personnel and associated increase in the economy related to it

      Just remember, all that "military money, military personnel and associated increase in the economy" also comes with a decrease in quality of life.

      Just take a look at Fayettevlle, North Carolina. It's got all the wonderful benefits of having Fort Bragg, and yet it's one of the least desirable places to live in the entire United States. Drugs, prostitution, crime and it's entirely because of its proximity to Ft Bragg.

      Having a bunch of "military money" and twenty-somethings who are away from home for the first time and have a steady paycheck for the first time could turn even paradise into a shithole.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    10. Re: More religious whackjobs by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 3, Funny

      Illegal my ass. We occupied and annexed it fair and square, replacing tribal savagery where might made right on the scale of every day life with actual laws and courts and civilized institutions. The fact that we also brought modern religion (that is to say a small-L liberal judeo-christian tradition) to replace this "the colors of the wind" bullshit is all the more icing on the cake.

    11. Re:More religious whackjobs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How is that a "misfortune"? They are better off than anyone else in Polynesia, and have one of the highest standards of living in the world.

      Don't make the mistake of confusing native hawaiians with all residents. Natives as a group have the lowest standard of living in the state.

    12. Re:More religious whackjobs by hey! · · Score: 2

      In the neighborhood were I grew up there was a row of houses that were built on a paper street that had yet to be built. All those houses were accessed via temporary easements running over lots on the adjacent street. But after selling all the houses on the paper street the developer disappeared and nobody wanted to pay for the actual building of the paper street. The people who lived on the paper street just used the theoretically temporary easements on a practically permanent basis.

      Once a year the owners of the adjacent lots would erect a temporary fence across the easement to prove that they hadn't legally abandoned their claim over the land. On that day the people who lived on the paper street had to ask permission to cross their neighbors' land. When I was a kid this had been going on longer than anyone in the neighborhood could remember -- judging from the age of the houses maybe thirty years -- but every year those neighbors would put those fences up in the hope that some day the paper street would be built and the easements would cease.

      Of course the legal technicalities with the Hawaii telescopes are probably different, but the political principle is the same. If you don't assert your claims periodically, people will argue that you've abandoned them. And I suppose that Hawaiian natives are allowed to have politics like everyone else. Maybe sometimes there are more telescope friendly people in charge, and other times more native-rights assertive people.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    13. Re:More religious whackjobs by hey! · · Score: 2

      And of course it's even a *better* deal for the USA. We get to govern the place, put our military on it, claim the adjacent territorial waters, tax the people who live there etc., in return for the symbolic pretense that we're doing it according to ethical and legal principles. That's the deal.

      Occasionally the pretense of principle presents some minor restrictions on what we do, but in that very same grand scheme of things it's still a pretty sweet deal.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    14. Re:More religious whackjobs by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      Have you seen our national seal? An eagle with arrows and olive branches. We dictate the terms of peace because we have the weapons to do so.

      Great Seal of the US - first used in 1782.

      US becomes a world power - 1943, perhaps. An argument could be made for 1942 if you tried real hard. Before that? Requires a rather huge stretch....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    15. Re:More religious whackjobs by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 4, Informative

      Those are all good points, but the sovereignty activists don't care. Each of them envisions themselves the new king or queen; this is about petty attempts at grabbing power, nothing more. They really don't care if they are wrong about the telescope as long as it gives them something to rally around (Hawai'i resident here; I have actually heard this said by an anti-TMT activist).

      They don't want the economic or educational benefits the telescope would bring; poor and uneducated are good for the leaders. They want racial discontent more than then want tolerance; perceptions of persecution are good for the leaders. You can point out to these activist leaders out that Hawaiian sovereignty is an inherently racist idea (it's no better than the scumbag white nationalist groups, not in my book; all race based nationalism is immoral bronze age bullshit). You can point out that everyone born in Hawai'i is an American citizen equal under the law. You can point out the economic problems that would occur the instant Hawai'i left the US, if that were to happen, and that life for their supporters would become much harder. They do not care, and they don't care if Hawai'i goes to shit, as long as they are the rulers of shit mountain.

      That's what this is really about. They want people poor, uneducated, angry, and easy to manipulate for their own benefit. None of the benefits the TMT would provide to Hawai'i County's public education system (like the high school robotics program they fund) and economy? That's great to them. They sure as hell don't want other people educating kids. And they do want people to say stupid shit like 'Hawaiians are anti-science' because it creates an us vs them environment (DO NOT SAY 'Hawaiians are anti-science' as some people have; that's racist and not true. Hawaiian does not equal anti-TMT activist). So we are not talking about a benevolent group here. Keep in mind, every year people do off road racing and snow boarding and other things on Maunakea, and leave all sorts of garbage, and no one cares about that. The Mauna is only sacred in so far as a political point can be made, in other words, they don't really give two shits about mountain or the telescope or the supposed sacredness, only what they can gain from it. Or course, if they really cared, they wouldn't be doing shit like introducing invasive ants.

      Additionally, I'd like to point out that if they were really all about ancient Hawaiian traditions, they would realize that there was nothing prohibiting building things on Maunakea and that ancient Hawaiians were active stargazers. There is nothing at all suggesting that this would be offensive. The protestors also seem to be ignoring the fact that their presence on the Mauna would, in contrast, be offense; only the ali'i and kahuna were allowed on the Mauna, not commoners like them (of course, in the modern State of Hawai'i, we are all equals and Maunakea is open to all; there are no castes of people). It's no different than the Christian groups that make up their religion as they go along and pick and choose what parts of the Bible they like in order to justify their current inane actions. It's just like a lot of stuff that seems anti-science on the outside; it's all about someone's power or wealth, you just have to find out who, and in this case it is the Hawaiian sovereignty movement.

      Hope that clear up some of the situation here. And the thing is, all of their legal, cultural, economic, scientific, and environmental arguments are complete fabricated bullshit. So whenever the telescope is built (because there is literally no good reason to block it) they are just going to use it as more 'proof' that they are being repressed, and that no one listens to or cares about Hawaiian voices (not

    16. Re:More religious whackjobs by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've been there too. What most people don't appreciate about Mauna Kea is its staggeringly large size. As a shield volcano made of lava that came out with the consistency of oatmeal, its spread exceeds its height far more than any other mountain. And since that height had to reach 19,000' just to break the ocean surface, at its present height above water this single peak is larger than the whole Rocky Mountain range.

      What this means is that of all the world's high mountains, Mauna Kea is the easiest to access. On this gentle slope, a simple graded road is all it takes to get the largest assemblies up there. The smooth dome in an island location not in any storm belt makes for better weather, and more cloud-free nights, than anywhere else in the world. And it's roomy: the University of Hawaii administers an 11,000-acre nature preserve at the summit, with 52 acres in the middle dedicated to astronomy. Seen from above, everything we can put up there just disappears into the landscape.

    17. Re:More religious whackjobs by shaitand · · Score: 2

      "Natives as a group have the lowest standard of living in the state."

      Like he said... "They are better off than anyone else in Polynesia, and have one of the highest standards of living in the world."

      Just because it's a low standard by Hawaiian standards doesn't mean its a low standard with any reasonable perspective.

    18. Re:More religious whackjobs by Sollitaire · · Score: 2

      Not all of us military related personnel are 20 somethings spending minuscule paychecks on largely undesirable things. I'm a military spouse who actually works for IBM and is working on my PhD in information science. While I realize I'm not necessarily the norm, I do live here on base so I have a bit more understanding than most who have never been here or in this situation would. The towns here that are in direct proximity to the bases are actually a lot better than many of the other towns around the U.S mostly because you can't put a base in the middle of no where on an island since the island as a whole is in the middle of no where and it isn't that big to begin with.

      That said, they did an economic study here on what would happen if they did a drawdown of troops:
      "Under the Army’s 2020 Force Structure Realignment, potentially 20,000 soldiers and 30,000 family members could be forced to leave.
      On top of the nearly 20,000 soldiers, another 3,053 direct contract jobs and 3,936 indirect jobs are at stake. Together, they make up roughly 4 percent of Hawaii’s labor force. With a move like this, officials say Hawaii’s economy could lose out on $1.3 billion."
      http://khon2.com/2014/11/14/ar...

      That is a much bigger impact than you would think being that the only real money makers here on the islands are tourism and food exports including Dole and Monsanto. There is no real economy beyond that.

      I also know some of the people who are actually a part of the team working on the telescopes here. They in no way want to do any harm to the natives or native lands. That said, the natives go back and forth a lot in what they want or choose to promote from one issue to another. The telescope project simply provides a face to the "foreign" institution that they can fight against at the moment. Being an anthropologist, I did of course research as much as I could when I got here about the natives. There is no denying that the acts perpetrated against the then standing monarchy of the Hawaiian islands where underhanded, however, that particular ruling class was not the long standing establishment many would have you believe. The islands were a part of many hostile take overs between warring tribes long before Captain Cook ever landed there.

      The real issue at hand is how poorly the island natives are doing in comparison to the prosperity that surrounds them in the form of 5 star resorts and million dollar estates of the rich and famous (http://www.ksbe.edu/_assets/spi/pdfs/reports/demography_well-being/05_06_5.pdf); the infrastructure on the outskirts of the island where there is no tourism to support it is crumbling into the ocean (http://khon2.com/2015/04/28/portion-of-crumbling-kamehameha-highway-in-kaaawa-to-be-repaired/); and the fact that there is really no such thing as affordable homes (http://www.hawaiibusiness.com/the-high-cost-of-affordable-housing/). The telescope project is simply a way to get their voice heard when everyone turns a deaf ear and blind eye to all of the other maladies occurring at a much more local level.

  2. Works both ways by dissy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If that is acceptable, what about my claim that science is my religion, and the native Hawaiins are desecrating what I declare as holy land? Will they be forced to stop doing so too?

    Probably not, which is why we shouldn't allow them to stop us for this reason just the same.

  3. Re:Certainty by Crashmarik · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm sure the comments here will take into account nuanced perspectives of Hawaiian native history and culture,

    You mean the history culture of shaking down any deep pocket involved in a large construction project ?
     

  4. Tiki idols... by BenJeremy · · Score: 2

    Peter Brady nods his head sagely....

  5. No guilt for you by Iamthecheese · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Nope, I'm finished feeling guilty for the acts of previous generations. The islands are part of the United States now. They have their votes and councils. They have their local government. And this isn't about religion anyway, it's about declaring as much independence as possible. Fuck that, the war is over. I don't care that they want to make a statement. I do care that they want to make their statement at the cost of science. I'm not sure whether I'm disappointed we're not using eminent domain here but I don't think these objections are valid.

    --
    If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    1. Re:No guilt for you by chipschap · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As a haole[1] living in Hawai`i, I took the time to learn the history and some of the language.

      You can't possibly study the events of 1893 and conclude that anything but a monstrous wrong was committed. (I'm writing a novel called "No keia la, no keia po" and to write it I had to read extensively about those days.)

      I don't know how to right that wrong. The Hawaiian sovereignty movement has its own ideas, though I don't know how practical those ideas may be. But I do know that something really, really bad was done back then, and it shouldn't be set aside or forgotten.

      [1] Today this generally means 'Caucasian' and is sometimes used in a derogatory manner, but in the Hawaiian language, it actually means 'foreigner' without judgmental overtones.

    2. Re:No guilt for you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      > Hawaiians voted overwhelmingly for statehood.

      That would be false.

      Out of a population of 600,000 only 140,000 voted for statehood.
      And of that 140,000, tens of thousands were US military servicemen.

      Also, the choice was limited between remaining a territory with just half-assed rights but all the obligations or become a full state and get full rights with essentially the same obligations. There was no option for sovereignty.

    3. Re:No guilt for you by Ramze · · Score: 2

      1893 was 122 years ago. I sympathize with the actual natives living at the time, but they aren't alive anymore. Six "generations" later, I don't think anyone is entitled to reparations. There is an unspoken statute of limitations on this sort of thing. Not a single disgruntled Hawaiian today was born knowing anything other than living with the reality of the rule of the USA - same as any other citizen born in the USA. Why should their ancestry or DNA give them any privilege?

      Did you know that my native South Carolina was once a British colony? Seems the demographics shifted a bit over time and the rebels stole her away to form the USA.... then she broke off that yoke to form a Confederacy with many other states... and was attacked by the USA and again re-absorbed into the union.

      Should I as a native South Carolinian get reparations for not being part of the British Commonwealth? or the Confederacy? Nonsense.

      I believe the Hawaiian Homelands is sufficient restitution.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

      Let's not forget that the Kingdom of Hawaii was forged from bloodshed, war, and usurping land itself from OTHER natives on various islands -- and it was a rather short-lived kingdom that lasted less than 100 years. Seems odd to opine for the bad old days of bloody island warfare and subjugation that spanned less time than the state of Hawaii has existed. Throughout the history of the world, countries have come and go. Hawaii was taken over by an internal rebellion - granted, mostly consisting of settled foreigners... but, still -- they lived there, so I can't fault them for fighting to become a state.

      I've visited the lovely land of Hawaii. Beautiful place... the luau I attended was fantastic. I was served poi. Disgusting stuff that makes paper mache paste sound delicious (though the other food was quite good). The native serving the poi said "yeah, this is the nasty stuff we used to eat before foreigners visited the island. POI -- I assume it was named for the sound you make when you spit it out of your mouth.. poi poi poi."

      But, I digress. I see all this Kingdom of Hawaii stuff as merely delusional fantasies of people's ancestral rights to govern themselves rather than appease the country they actually live within. I think the religious desecration angle is a more convincing argument if they truly believe the land is sacred.

    4. Re:No guilt for you by chipschap · · Score: 2

      1) Pa`i`ai kind of literally means "slapped food" or "beaten food" which refers to the pounding process to make poi. Poi is pounded taro diluted with water. Pa`i`ai is not diluted. This is interesting, and they'll ship pa`i`ai to you.

      http://www.guavarose.com/2013/...

      2) Poi is great with the right foods. Mixed with lomi lomi salmon --- `ono! (delicious).

      3) As to judging a protest by uninformed members, no, it doesn't invalidate it, but when a large percentage of the protesters are there because the profs told them to go or because they get 'extra credit' or the like, it does raise some questions. Do they oppose the telescope because they were told they should, or because they understand the issue and took a stand?

      4) Bear with me here. Understanding Hawai`i is not so easy. It is very different from the mainland. I like to describe it this way. If you consider the cultural differences between Manhattan and say, a small town in rural Mississippi, the gap is considerable but I describe the type of differences as being along the x-axis. The differences between New York and Tokyo are great, too, but those differences are of another type, and I describe them as being on the y-axis.

      People come from the mainland to Hawai`i and expect cultural differences, of course, but they think that they're all on the x-axis. But they aren't. There are definite y-axis differences, too, and a lot of people don't get that. They are the ones who have trouble getting along or understanding the issues. Perhaps I had less trouble adapting because I've been married to an Asian for over 30 years, and I've dealt with y-axis differences. But I've watched people from the mainland come and later go, saying they just couldn't get along in a place like this.

      Hawai`i is a very complex place, and there are no easy answers. The postings in this thread, I think, reinforce that opinion.

  6. Re:I have a surefire way of ending the protest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    > Seriously, I know this whole campaign is a scam whipped up by the Greens.

    You are a fucktard.

    Every telescope built on that mountain has been protested. The problem has been that the people protesting are the weakest among us. It took the advent of wide-spread social media for their voices to be heard.

  7. Re: Prefer support by aevan · · Score: 2

    The logic is that polynesia isn't a monolithic entity, and different groups colonised hawaii; an initial group in around 1800 years ago, another took over a millenia later. Whether this was a cultural influence or an actual invasion is disputed, but the idea is "if we restore Hawaii to the initial people, it'd go to the Marquesas and not the Tahitian polynesians".

    Or the midgets . I favour them personally.

  8. Cut off all Spam to Hawaii by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 2

    In one week the Hawaiians will be begging for the telescope to be built.

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
  9. Warmth? by Spazmania · · Score: 4, Informative

    Mehana Kihoi. ... âoeWhen you place your hands and your bare feet into the soil, you feel that warmth, you feel her heart."

    Liar. Had you ever placed your hands and bare feet into the soil at 13,000 feet atop Mauna Kea you'd know that the only things you feel are hypothermia and hypoxia. It's friggin' cold up there, and the air is barely breathable.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Warmth? by Spazmania · · Score: 2

      FAR ÃÂ 91.211 Supplemental oxygen

      (1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;

      But hey, what does the FAA know about thin air and hypoxia.

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
  10. Re: Prefer support by Sarius64 · · Score: 2

    Because they have managing insight based upon genetics? How exactly does that trick work? If that can be passed down genetically I say the bastards start installing Calculus 3 at birth because that was hard!