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Judge: Warrantless Airport Seizure of Laptop 'Cannot Be Justified'

SonicSpike writes with news of a ruling in U.S. District Court that the seizure and search of a man's laptop without a warrant while he was in an airport during an international border crossing was not justified. According to Judge Amy Jackson's ruling (PDF), the defendant was already the subject of an investigation when officials used his international flight as a pretext for rifling through his laptop. The government argued that a laptop was simply a "container," and thus subject to warrantless searches to protect the homeland. But the judge said the search "was supported by so little suspicion of ongoing or imminent criminal activity, and was so invasive of Kim's privacy and so disconnected from not only the considerations underlying the breadth of the government's authority to search at the border, but also the border itself, that it was unreasonable."

She also noted that laptop searches may require more stringent legal support, since they are capable of holding much more private information than a box or duffel bag. And while a routine search involves a quick look through a container, this search was quite different: "[T]he agents created an identical image of Kim's entire computer hard drive and gave themselves unlimited time to search the tens of thousands of documents, images, and emails it contained, using an extensive list of search terms, and with the assistance of two forensic software programs that organized, expedited, and facilitated the task."

200 comments

  1. Eh by fustakrakich · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've never seen where lack of justification ever stopped the government.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:Eh by Sebby · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've never seen where lack of justification ever stopped the government.

      Or due process...

      --

      AC comments get piped to /dev/null
    2. Re:Eh by meerling · · Score: 1

      Sad, but true.

    3. Re:Eh by LessThanObvious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They will continue to do as they please, the only consequence on their end is the admissibility of any evidence uncovered. It's not like they are likely to face any personal criminal or civil liability for the violation of the person's rights.

    4. Re:Eh by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But hey, lets keep voting for bigger and more government, and consolidate as much power at the top as possible because our guy is there! (Which works for both D and R )

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    5. Re:Eh by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      I've never seen where lack of justification ever stopped the government.

      Occasionally a judge will scold them after the fact. (no punishment, of course)

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  2. More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The moral of this story is:
    1) The TSA and assorted related three letter agencies don't give a crap about due process or warrants anyways
    2) If you're travelling through the USA (into, out of, or stoppover in), either don't bring any electronics at all, or only bring freshly wiped stuff with absolutely no personal data on them. Blob up your personal files into a passworded file somewhere on the 'net that you can download when you get where you're going, and don't carry the URL for it on your person.

    1. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 4, Informative

      The moral of this story is:
      1) The TSA and assorted related three letter agencies don't give a crap about due process or warrants anyways
      2) If you're travelling through the USA (into, out of, or stoppover in), either don't bring any electronics at all, or only bring freshly wiped stuff with absolutely no personal data on them. Blob up your personal files into a passworded file somewhere on the 'net that you can download when you get where you're going, and don't carry the URL for it on your person.

      3) Encrypt your hard drive, make sure to shut down before walking through security, and remember "I do not recollect" was good enough for Reagan.

    2. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 5, Interesting

      no, you miss the point. travel 'empty'. a plain fresh install with no URL history or anything on it. ie, you do a fresh build, you create a backup (that's your new image for any new travel) and you travel with a fresh install of linux (ideally not windows) and you remember, in your head, your passwords and key URLs.

      its very sad that its gotton to this. but this is probably the best way to protect yourself and arrive in one piece, unmolested.

      sadly, very few can even do this much. or are willing to do this before they travel.

      I don't believe encrypting a full disk is going to help you and may cause you to be detained (unfairly, but you are not in control, here, realize that). encryption keeps so-called bad guys out, but the real ones to worry about are 'your own people' (so to speak). they won't take no for an answer.

      better to travel with a blank install and keep all your login and history info in your head.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TWX · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It might not be a bad idea to take the computer to a few coffee shops to use their wifi to surf CNN and the BBC and other news websites first, or to at least do this in the originating airport on their wireless to demonstrate that the computer sees casual use. Make it too blank and there's new grounds for suspicion and again, they'll duplicate the disk and attempt to find any deleted files.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    4. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by i.r.id10t · · Score: 2

      Or a lot of shock porn like the goatse guy, etc

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    5. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 5, Informative

      The moral of this story is: 1) The TSA and assorted related three letter agencies don't give a crap about due process or warrants anyways

      The moral of your comment is you can't be bothered to read the fucking article. TSA has nothing to do with it. It's an investigation of a foreign national suspected of violating export laws regarding aerospace hardware with defense implications (accelerometers that can be used in missile guidance systems) to China. The search was carried out by a United States Special Agent, of the DHS Security Investigations Office, not TSA.

      The ruling is actually an interesting read, the long and short of which is that the Government had tons of probable cause. The owner of the laptop had even been arrested previously and given testimony regarding his activities. This reeks of laziness on the part of the Special Agents conducting the investigation; they had more than enough to get a conventional warrant but choose instead of rely on the border search exception. Something tells me they won't be repeating that mistake in the future.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    6. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by thaylin · · Score: 1

      Last I checked the TSA fell under DHS. DHS is a very broad category. this person may not have been a TSA agent, but it would not be hard to believe he was.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    7. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TWX · · Score: 2

      I wouldn't do that either. Border entry guards have the power to deny entry to those considered to be undesirable, and given that the only way to get recourse is to have representation within the country that one has been denied access to, being branded as undesirable could get very expensive very quickly, even if such a label were overturned on challenge.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    8. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Informative

      no, you miss the point. travel 'empty'. a plain fresh install with no URL history or anything on it. ie, you do a fresh build, you create a backup (that's your new image for any new travel) and you travel with a fresh install of linux (ideally not windows) and you remember, in your head, your passwords and key URLs.

      its very sad that its gotton to this. but this is probably the best way to protect yourself and arrive in one piece, unmolested.

      If you want to arrive unmolested you might try not taking part in an ongoing criminal conspiracy. Did you read the ruling or TFA? This was an ongoing investigation, where the owner of the laptop had previously been arrested; it was not a random "Let's take that dude's laptop." search. If the Special Agents involved had done their due diligence they could have easily obtained a warrant to seize the laptop rather than relying on the border search exception.

      I tend to agree with the ruling, the border search exception is flimsy cover to image someone's hard drive, but the multitude of uninformed comments here is bad even by /. standards. This was not a random search without basis or probable cause.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    9. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The moral of the story is that the US is hostile territory regardless. Avoid at all costs, stopover or otherwise.

      You guys need to take your country back before I would set foot anywhere near your borders.

    10. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by cdrudge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Erase your hard drive with a multi-pass secure wiping program before restoring the fresh image on it. Yeah yeah yeah it may not be perfect and theoretically some magical device might be able to pick up variations in temporal magnetic quantum flux in adjacent bits and recover data blah blah blah. But if they go to that level to recover your data, you were fucked anyways.

      If they ask why it's such a fresh install, you just simply state that you access everything via VPN and you only travel with a fresh laptop in case it's lost, stolen, detained, confiscated, etc and you don't lose anything and everything on it while you're traveling.

    11. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with the court in this circumstance that the government overstepped but you seem to hold a Manichaeistic viewpoint that believes the government is inherently evil and individuals are inherently good. Government agents have essentially the same world view except they believe they are protecting their countrymen from evil doers. In fact the world is a much complex and nuanced place. That is why we have courts to consider the circumstances and particulars of each event. Once of the strengths of the US system is that individuals can challenge government actions as in this instance with a fair chance of success. Sadly both the government and individuals often start believing their own BS to the detriments of us all.

    12. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Informative

      The lion's share of TSA employees are not "Agents." They are inaccurately labeled as "Officers" but in reality they do not possess law enforcement powers. They have no special powers (beyond that of a citizen's arrest) to arrest or detain you; that's what the uniformed law enforcement officer monitoring the checkpoint is there for.

      TSA does have a few Special Agents working for it that have such powers, as do all United States Special Agents, but they're focused on transportation security. The case being discussed here relates to export laws.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    13. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you want to arrive unmolested you might try not taking part in an ongoing criminal conspiracy.

      Unfortunately, I pay taxes in the US, thereby providing material support to a terrorist organization.

      Easy to say "just don't do it", not so easy to spend a few years in Club Fed for resisting the IRS' annual shake-down.

    14. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Pi1grim · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >> If the Special Agents involved had done their due diligence they could have easily obtained a warrant to seize the laptop rather than relying on the border search exception.

      Well, if they could've, they would've. But it seems they didn't have substantial evidence to support a search warrant and they decided to get a sneak peek using border as an excuse. And yes, if it's not legal inside the US, then it's definitely without probable cause, at least legally speaking. Being involved in an investigation doesn't take much, you don't have to do anything besides being near or catching an eye of an investigator, and requirement for warrants is not baseless, it's to exclude the "hey, I don't like this guy, let's investigate him, search everything and then maybe we'll find something to accuse him of".

    15. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      The moral is get your mitts off of my personal thoughts on my encrypted laptop and cell phone!

      Can you scan it for hazards? Sure.

      Can you ask me to turn it on? Sure.

      Can you ask me to unlock the encrypted device? NO!

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    16. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by queBurro · · Score: 1

      laptop with an SD slot and an encrypted microSD hidden pretty much anywhere?

      --
      sag
    17. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by garry_g · · Score: 2

      > If you want to arrive unmolested you might try not taking part in an ongoing criminal conspiracy.

      And how exactly do you ensure that you aren't part of some investigation? Being innocent doesn't protect you from being under false suspicion ... given the level of snooping NSA, GCHQ, BND and the likes are doing, falling under some sort of false suspicion could be caused by a mis-dial or an errant email ... or possibly by some government-critical comment you do on some public forum or similar ... just take the reports of people falsely being on the no-fly-list ...

    18. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by meerling · · Score: 1

      You could also write a script to make a ton of garbage files filled with random characters. That should make a paranoid 3-letter creep get a hard on when they see it, and lose all their hair over the next several weeks as they try to decrypt these obviously encrypted files.

    19. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      empty? No fuck that.

      Step 1: Install linux with its own /boot partition on /dev/hda1 (adjust as needed) and encrypted root disk
      Step 2: reboot from live CD
      Step 3: change encryption key to a random string you don't know
      Step 4: Go to airport, say "sure you can look at my laptop, the encryption key WAS something like..." now say what it WAS before you wiped it, but sound unsure; insist thats what it was last you knew it. (which is true, that was the last passphase for it you know
      Step 5: Smile, knowing you just trolled people who deserve it.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    20. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government _IS_ inherently evil. Go back to what Socrates and Plato said and follow that through history. People that try very hard to become politicians are psychopathic/sociopathic nut jobs. Why do you think the founding fathers of the US Government demanded a minimum amount of Government and 3 branches to keep each other in check? You think they had no experience with politicians prior to inventing a Government?

    21. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by just_a_monkey · · Score: 4, Funny

      6. Enjoy detention until you spill the password?

      --
      How inappropriate to call this planet Earth, when clearly it is Ocean.
    22. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you want to arrive unmolested you might try not taking part in an ongoing criminal conspiracy

      Bullshit.

      TSA et al have done the exact same thing with the laptops of people who aren't suspected of any criminal activity. And even if they are suspected of criminal activity, they're still entitled to due process.

      What you're saying is "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide".

      Have we actually reached the point where people are willing to accept fascists bypassing the law to make their lives easier? Or bullshit searches defended by the notion that innocent people have nothing to fear?

      Because what yo're saying is "a little fascism is OK if we think they're bad guys". Fuck that.

      This was not a random search without basis or probable cause.

      Then get a fucking warrant . Bypassing legal obligations because you think you can game the system and get the TSA to do it for you means you should lose your fucking job.

      It's bloody well time law enforcement was actually penalized when they do crap like this. And parallel construction should be grounds for criminal perjury charges.

      None of this "oh we had to lie to get a conviction and keep our sources secret". Because that's a crock of shit.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    23. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TheCarp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hoenstly, I feel the same way about it. But if its any consolation, I don't feel I pay taxes so much as they just take them. Hell, their "share" of my money gets allocated before I even get it....I have to ask for a portion of it back every year.

      Yet all they ever want to ask me is which face I like, they never once asked me if stomping on liberty was ok, they never once asked me if I wanted to pay for their oil wars or their torture program. I would gladly pay taxes to put every fucking torturer in prison and keep them their till they die of natural causes, but, nobody wants to give me that opportunity.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    24. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just a point of order, warrants are not required for searches and never have been. The vast majority of searches are conducted without warrants. For instance, the cops don't need a warrant to search somebody they're going to arrest. What's needed is that the search be "reasonable." So, either probable cause ("I smell weed!" rofl rofl rofl) or permission ("Hur, dur, of course you can look in my car occiffer!"). And a warrant is just a way of crossing the i's and dotting to the t's to demonstrate that you have established probable cause. So, don't think that just because a cop doesn't have a warrant he can't search you.

      However, in this case, there is zero probable cause to search this guy's laptop. There is no way one can reasonably believe criminal activity is underway on his laptop, RIGHT NOW such that obtaining a warrant would be unnecessary.

      There seems to have finally been some realization by judges that searches of electronic equipment are BIG FREAKING DEALS. Now that everybody has their life on their phone and computer, a look on your phone or in your laptop is a look inside your brain. I would rather have the cops look in my closet than on my phone. Now that computers have permeated society, I think judges and legislators are becoming less clueless, and we might finally see some progress on civil rights when it comes to electronics. The stuff we've been screaming about on /. for 15+ years is starting to come out of the mouths of judges.

      Just sayin' it's a positive sign.

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    25. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      At least you know you would be costing them, and thats worth something. Let our domestic enemies waste their resources.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    26. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by meta-monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Similar problem with deniable encryption. It sounds great, but if the bad guys think you've fooled them, they'll just keep beating you with the $5 wrench even after you've broken and given them the real password.

      Best idea is to simply avoid people who are legally allowed to beat you. Trolling them sounds like fun, but, well, the wrench...

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    27. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      When a crime has no victim, the criminal is the government, no exceptions.

      If it was a theft investigation it would be one matter but, export tyranny? Its sad we live in a country where law makers can make and have laws like that enforced without being in jeopardy of never feeling the sun on their face again.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    28. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 0

      TSA et al have done the exact same thing with the laptops of people who aren't suspected of any criminal activity.

      TSA doesn't conduct border searches; you fail on the very first sentence of your post. Border searches are typically conducted by ICE. In this instance it was conducted by a US Special Agent that was investigating this one specific individual.

      What you're saying is "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide".

      What I'm saying is that in this specific case the person was already under investigation and had indeed previously been arrested for the crime being investigated. Did you bother to read the part of my post where I said I agreed with the ruling? Did you bother to click on the fucking link and read the ruling or do you generate your outage based solely off the headline?

      The last was a rhetorical question that I already know the answer to.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    29. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      When a crime has no victim, the criminal is the government, no exceptions.

      Exporting duel-use technology (accelerometers useful for missile guidance systems) to enemies of the United States (Iran) is far from a victimless crime.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    30. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Partition two logical drives. Set the MBR to ignore your encrypted one. Use the unencrypted one as a honeypot to make it look like a fresh install. After you are through security re-enable the encrypted partition.You could even use the unencrypted version to surf the web at the local coffee bar to get some browser history. This would work to avoid suspicion of an encrypted unit. However in the case of this article the agents were already targeting the user in which case they were going to do a forensic low-level snapshot anyway.

    31. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually the USA, the only country in the world, that requires you to pay income tax (above a certain level) even if you live in another country.

    32. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      Anything can be called "dual use". I don't rightly give a damn what something CAN be used for. Sell them missles for all I care, they have a right to defend themselves, just like we do.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    33. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> If the Special Agents involved had done their due diligence they could have easily obtained a warrant to seize the laptop rather than relying on the border search exception.

      Well, if they could've, they would've. But it seems they didn't have substantial evidence to support a search warrant and they decided to get a sneak peek using border as an excuse.

      I haven't read the ruling, but your statement isn't necessarily true. They may have been able to get a warrant, but didn't want to since executing it would make their intentions much more obvious to Mr. Kim. Being pulled aside at the border and going through extra scrutiny may have been seen as less suspicious for the case they were investigating. I believe the judge was right though, it isn't that you have no rights at the border, just fewer, and the agents went too far.

    34. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Sell them missles for all I care

      You're entitled to your opinion but I think you'll find it doesn't command much support amongst the American public.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    35. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you want to arrive unmolested you might try not taking part in an ongoing criminal conspiracy

      Also, you'll need to avoid:
      + having a name remotely similar to someone who is part of an ongoing criminal conspiracy,
      + driving a vehicle the same model and color as someone who is part of an ongoing criminal conspiracy,
      + being mentioned in a communication by someone who is part of an ongoing criminal conspiracy, even via typo,
      + looking vaguely like someone who is part of an ongoing criminal conspiracy in the eyes of the half-blind TSA agent,
      + looking like a brown person
      + having a nice looking new computer that a TSA agent just plain feels like stealing.

      All of those things are reasons that either we've seen articles posted here about illegal seizures being justified by, or that people I know myself got "grabbed off the street" for. (That would be the same model/color vehicle one. The 60 year old woman they grabbed was not allowed to contact anyone until she was released with an "oops, license plate was wrong, and we were looking for a 20 year old guy anyways" 12 hours of interrogation later.)

      As long as you manage all of that, AND have nothing to hide, I suppose you're totally safe as can be! (At least until you're not.)

    36. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm not an expert however I believe they can only recover data in the manner you described using a traditional magnetic hard drive (cyclical spinners) because of the wear and tear on the bits. A couple of tricks are to do hundreds or thousands of reads to find some of that wear on each bit, there will be inconsistency in the switch based on previous wear. Or they can analyze it using an electron microscope (same thing with RAM) to visually inspect the wear. Both types of analysis assume that you have the actual physical disk and have plenty of time to analyze it. If you zero your drive then a low-level snapshot bit-by-bit copy like the article mentions then it will not turn up any of those previously erased files based on a wear-and-tear forensic analysis. However you have to consider that SSDs which are now in most computers are much different than a spinner. There is about 10-20% of the drive that is used for remapping sectors. SSD circuits have a limited amount of read / writes before they become unusable so the system will route around that with extra mappings. This means there is a good 10-20% of your drive that won't be wiped properly without special software. If you really want to be data paranoid get a self encrypting drive which drops the encryption key after the third bad password attempt. This means that all your data is lost in a few processor ticks when someone starts to tamper with it and no one would be able to recover it (until quantum computing is perfected).

    37. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      which is why liberty matters so much. Because mob rule has always favored tyranny and enforcement of its will on others, in fact, the only liberty that matters is the liberty to do what others do not approve of, nothing else even deserves be called liberty.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    38. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While all you say is true, the judge's decision is a Good Thing: warrants exist for a reason. This time the victim/criminal was a vile(*) Korean dude. Next time it may be you or whoever.

      (*) we are being told

    39. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you ask me to unlock the encrypted device? NO!

      You realize that the legality of this has never stopped them, right? Also that they'll happily lock you up in a cell until you agree to do so, and if they want it bad enough, they'll export you to Gitmo so they can use 'enhanced interrogation' until you do? And since it's been demonstrated that torture doesn't actually work for extracting information, it's going to be a long time before they stop.

    40. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "you travel with a fresh install of linux (ideally not windows)"

      no it should be windows 100%. Linux is suspicious. what are you trying to hide? process should be

      1. wipe laptop completely (overwritting all data with 0's. not just regular format)
      2. install windows (probably windows 7 you dont want to be to new that they wont recognize it)
      3. Power down laptop having made absolutely no changes
      4. never power on that laptop again until though security unless asked to by the TSA to do so.

    41. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you want to arrive unmolested you might try not taking part in an ongoing criminal conspiracy

      Bullshit.

      TSA et al have done the exact same thing with the laptops of people who aren't suspected of any criminal activity. And even if they are suspected of criminal activity, they're still entitled to due process.

      What you're saying is "you have nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide".

      Have we actually reached the point where people are willing to accept fascists bypassing the law to make their lives easier? Or bullshit searches defended by the notion that innocent people have nothing to fear?

      Because what yo're saying is "a little fascism is OK if we think they're bad guys". Fuck that.

      This was not a random search without basis or probable cause.

      Then get a fucking warrant . Bypassing legal obligations because you think you can game the system and get the TSA to do it for you means you should lose your fucking job.

      It's bloody well time law enforcement was actually penalized when they do crap like this. And parallel construction should be grounds for criminal perjury charges.

      None of this "oh we had to lie to get a conviction and keep our sources secret". Because that's a crock of shit.

      If there's a judge around they probably could get a warrant for just about anything... seriously, you might look like you're "clenching your buttocks" or something, and apparently that's enough for a 14 hour full cavity search. (And, not mentioned in this link but elsewhere, same case, then the hospital sent him something like a $6K bill for it. God Bless Amerika, Sieg Heil!!!)

    42. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Who uses that technology to kill more people, the US or Iran?

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    43. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      They've shown so well that torture gives good results.

      Oh, wait.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    44. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you didn't RTFA!
      You are right, this wasn't a random search. However you are wrong that in that is was without basis and probable cause AS RULED BY THE JUDGE.
      Just because you are the subject of an investigation they don't get free reign to search you when ever / where ever they want. There needs to be a reason which they didn't have!

    45. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by DutchUncle · · Score: 2

      Just swap in a different hard drive. Since it doesn't have much, a modest SSD should do the trick.

    46. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

      You can leave, but your money stays behind with the IRS. Plus you will pay a good chunk of change for the privilege of losing your US citizenship. This is more like a Berlin Wall situation than a free country. Or trying to convert to Christianity if you are Muslim. Not a good reflection of American exceptionalism.

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    47. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Keeping advanced weaponry and/or the components thereof out of the hands of people who are championing our destruction has no bearing whatsoever on your liberty. You're creating a false equivalence. Have fun trying to exercise your liberty when you're dead.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    48. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 0

      Thank you for providing the Ayatollah's point of view. If you hate the West so much why don't you leave? I hear they're looking for able bodied males and fertile females in Syria. The odds are good you're one of those two things.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    49. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, if you want fascist America, why don't you go back to Germany, circa 1939.

      I want a better America. Why don't you leave if you don't?

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    50. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      This. I wish I was looking at it from the outside but this place is getting scary. Police everywhere you look more often than not in unmarked or barely marked cars. Free speech only exists in "zones" whenever the tyrants decide its advantageous for them, they can deny anyone a trial indefinitely just by uttering the word "terrorist".....and thats hardly even scratching the surface.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    51. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you fail by missing the point. Thank you for playing, your score is 0.

    52. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Livius · · Score: 1

      you might try not taking part in an ongoing criminal conspiracy

      It's *not* "an ongoing criminal conspiracy" until a jury says it is.

      It does mean the government was being horribly lazy because they should have had more than enough for a suitable search warrant, but there's certainly nothing the victim should have done differently.

    53. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because what yo're saying is "a little fascism is OK if we think they're bad guys".

      Actually, what seems is happening is more like "a little fascism is OK because we think we're the good guys", which is ultimately more disturbing I think.

    54. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Garfong · · Score: 2

      Which, I'm sure, is a huge relief for the people being tortured by fools who believe in it.

    55. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's bloody well time law enforcement was actually penalized when they do crap like this.

      2 cops were penalized in Mississippi recently.

      As were 2 cops in NYC.

      This is only the beginning.

      Next, it will be DAs, Prosecutors, Judges, and then Mayors, Governors, Senators and Representatives if things don't improve.

    56. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      If you're travelling through the USA (into, out of, or stoppover in)

      Or if you're traveling in any vehicle with a more-than-infinitessimal chance of being diverted to the USA in the event of a problem.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    57. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Exporting duel-use technology (accelerometers useful for missile guidance systems) to enemies of the United States (Iran) is far from a victimless crime.

      That's because duel-use technologies are pistols and swords. Sometimes knives and banjos.

    58. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      You don't know what fascism actually is. It's just a buzzword that you parrot.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    59. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by sjames · · Score: 1

      ...without basis or probable cause.

      Not random, but according to the judge it was without probable cause. Surely if they had probable cause, they could get a warrant.

      So what we have here is that he is suspected of involvement with criminal activity, but not with cause sufficient to get a warrant and search him properly. What should one do to not arouse the vague unfounded suspicion of a LEA?

    60. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by msim · · Score: 2
      --

      Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know when your gonna get food poisoning.
    61. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Right. See: your sig.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    62. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Falos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "You'll be harassed for it." is a bad symptom.

      "If we can't use justice, we'll just use bullshit. We don't need to be 'right'." kind of demands to be contested on sheer principle. No, not everyone can afford to do so, but we can be aware.

    63. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let our domestic enemies waste their resources.

      Since their resources are our taxes, shouldn't that be our resources?

    64. Re: More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That looks to be for australian residents, not expats.

    65. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they ask why it's such a fresh install,

      none of their business. they shouldn't ask it, and you shouldn't answer it. not even if you're just 'passing through' and not from here.

      but if it's windows, the easily plausible explanation is exactly that.. "windows crashed, had to be restored" nobody would question that at all, not even bill gates, someone who's had windows bsod on him at high profile product announcements.

    66. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Make it too blank and there's new grounds for suspicion and again, they'll duplicate the disk and attempt to find any deleted files.

      Remember these are US law enforcement agents we are talking about. If the HD is too blank, they will helpfully upload their personal stashes of child porn onto your system before turning it over to their forensics guy to "find".

    67. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being investigated is in no way the same as being guilty, due process requires that if someone is to be found guilty of criminal activity then they need to be tried in a court of law - not just put on a watch list.

      Also being investigated by the "Bad" guys in a lot of instances means you are one of the "Good" guys.

    68. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's called Unreasonable Search and Seizure and in this case, they really needed a warrant (court oversight that agreed it was reasonable) to proceed. Otherwise, the search and seizure as the court ruled was unjustified and completely unreasonable. The various agencies such as Customs, TSA and such are litterally driving business away from the United States in the name of security theatre and it's doing nothing to actually improve our security.

    69. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is just typical taxation of residents on worldwide income - pretty much everyone does that. The US (and Eritreia) are the only ones to tax non-resident citizens on their worldwide income.

    70. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure it is. As a country we're exceptionally stubborn. Exceptionally greedy. Exceptionally fat. Exceptionally arrogant. Exceptionally stupid. Exceptionally self-absorbed...

      Why, what did you think was exceptional about the US these days?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    71. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why, what did you think was exceptional about the US these days?

      Your black president is whiter than whitey. Now that is exceptional!

    72. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Search at border crossing requires no warrant. Never did never will. Get your brain in gear learn something.

    73. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      My sig is a quote from a work of fiction. An extremely entertaining work of fiction to be sure, but fiction nonetheless. I'm surprised you're not familiar with it if you're on this site.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    74. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by theArtificial · · Score: 1

      How does it work for "anchor babies"? For example recently the FBI has busted rings in the US where Chinese nationals travel with child with the explicit goal to obtain citizenship.

      --
      Man blir trött av att gå och göra ingenting.
    75. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In my opinion a valid reason for reimaging is to protect your or your companies IP from falling into the hands of a foreign government/company. Some companies make sure to lend clean laptops for that purpose. That it will also protect it from other things is irrelevant. That being said, there is no guarantee that saying such would not be interpreted in a way you wish it wasn't.

    76. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      Which is why I said leave and don't come back. Take all of your money with you, and don't rely on an income from a United States based source. The IRS can always "require" you to pay taxes, but can't do much to collect if there's nothing of yours for them to grab.

    77. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 2

      LOL...the TSA doesn't employ people who could even comprehend the idea of a "fresh install". Most of them are on the same educational level as Walmart greeters. In fact, about a month ago the DHS didn't even bother to tell ANY airlines they where doing some "maintenance" on their no-fly list database...it just suddenly went down and our alarms lit up. This almost resulted in a complete grounding of all US flights! "oh yeah, we forgot" was basically the answer FROM THEIR OWN IT PEOPLE. Even though all these systems use ITIL change control, are required by law to use proper change control methodology...they just "do whatever" and make it up as they go along...even when there is an established system they know they need to use. If I personally had done something like that to that level of a production system, I'd be fired (and possibly sued by my corp to recoup the giant FINE from the FAA)...but DHS does it and the FAA does nothing.

    78. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've shown so well that torture gives good results.
      Oh, wait.

      When the only tool you have is a $5 wrench, every problem looks like hours and hours of fun!

    79. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Only if you are a billionaire fleeing to avoid paying income tax. The average Joe, if he were to move to Canada. he can keep 100% of what he had, and never file or pay taxes again. Illegal, but unenforced against the average Joe.

    80. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The threshold for needing to pay taxes is much higher if you live abroad. At a normal Chinese programmer's, it's not an issue. Double that? Still not an issue. Now, they are supposed to file every year anyway, but nobody's going to come after them if they don't.

      I'm not sure how it works for anchor babies that earn a lot. Perhaps the records aren't available to the US. The US probably can't associate the Chinese identity with the US identity, anyway.

    81. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Best to have a factory-new hard drive for the trip, then, so there are no deleted files.

    82. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [[If they ask why it's such a fresh install,]]
      If they ask why it's such a fresh install, you ask "are fresh installs against the law?".

    83. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      [[If they ask why it's such a fresh install,]] If they ask why it's such a fresh install, you ask "are fresh installs against the law?".

      And they think "that's exactly what a terrorist would say" and take you away for a few hours of interrogation so you miss your flight and, if you're a foreigner, investigate your background to find a reason to refuse you entry into the country.

      All the internet tough guys and barrack room lawyers here don't seem to realise or remember that mouthing off to border/customs officials has never been a good idea, even before the paranoia about terrorism that we have now.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    84. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Make it too blank and there's new grounds for suspicion and again, they'll duplicate the disk and attempt to find any deleted files.

      Remember these are US law enforcement agents we are talking about. If the HD is too blank, they will helpfully upload their personal stashes of child porn onto your system before turning it over to their forensics guy to "find".

      At that level of paranoia, why don't you just say that they can take you away and shoot you?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    85. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, I pay taxes in the US, thereby providing material support to a terrorist organization.

      Easy to say "just don't do it", not so easy to spend a few years in Club Fed for resisting the IRS' annual shake-down.

      I believe the correct response to extremist right wing guff like this is "fuck off to Somalia then you retard".

      Instead, being slashdot, you get modded "insightful".

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    86. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Hoenstly, I feel the same way about it. But if its any consolation, I don't feel I pay taxes so much as they just take them. Hell, their "share" of my money gets allocated before I even get it....I have to ask for a portion of it back every year.

      Yet all they ever want to ask me is which face I like, they never once asked me if stomping on liberty was ok, they never once asked me if I wanted to pay for their oil wars or their torture program. I would gladly pay taxes to put every fucking torturer in prison and keep them their till they die of natural causes, but, nobody wants to give me that opportunity.

      In a democracy, your option is to change the government and the law, not to decide what you personally want to spend money on, or else a load of childless people would withhold money for education, pacifists for the military, libertarians for social welfare, etc.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    87. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      That is not true. The US requires you file income taxes. I pay nothing. I actually receive the child credit for my daughter, so I am literally getting $1000/yr just for filing.

    88. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      That's not true. Many countries have a reciprocal tax treaty with the US. I live in Israel. If I don't file, the IRS can request that my assets in Israel be frozen. On the flip-side, because I earn all my income in Israel and pay local taxes, I don't owe anything to the US, unless I earn a ridiculously high amount. I actually get a refund every year for my daughter, until she hits 18, of course.

    89. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2

      No longer true. In recent years the US has started going after non-residents who don't file.

    90. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      You can adjust your W-2 (is that the right form?) so that you don't have any (Federal) income tax withheld. I don't think you can do that for other deductions, though.

    91. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Anything can be called "dual use". I don't rightly give a damn what something CAN be used for. Sell them missles for all I care, they have a right to defend themselves, just like we do.

      I think you're letting your gloriously righteous indignation overpower your common sense.

      It is not OK to help hostile nations arm themselves against you. Would you really not care if the US sold nuclear weapons to Iran? Because the theory is that nuclear weapons are for defending yourself, although the "dual use" is pretty fucking obvious in that case.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    92. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're well heel. I'd say buy a new laptop do some little browsing, games, non-sensitive work(maybe) stuff etc. If they ask you about it you now have possible deniability. "I just bough it didn't get around to install my own software.

      Also, keep in mind that they will make a sector by sector copy. So you need to at least secure erase. If their really out to get you your only bet maybe a fresh HD.

    93. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by leptechie · · Score: 1

      The moral of this story is: 1) The TSA and assorted related three letter agencies don't give a crap about due process or warrants anyways

      The owner of the laptop had even been arrested previously and given testimony regarding his activities.

      Ahem, TFA says Yang was arrested and provided testimony, Kim is the subject of this ruling. He never implicated himself in anything and it is only by reference from Yang that he was noticed and investigated. The part about the investigating officer having zero suspicion that he would actually be involved in criminal activity during his stay but only thought that if Kim might have this search would find it, as well as hopefully recording proof of Yang's comments and interactions. If this man was a threat, the fact he was not monitored in any sense of the word during his stay negates that.

      Fishing expedition on a device that the agent clearly knew in advance would be a rich store of information using a procedure and supposed exemption that cannot be justified on exit from the country.

    94. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      The moral of the story is that the US is hostile territory regardless. Avoid at all costs, stopover or otherwise.

      You guys need to take your country back before I would set foot anywhere near your borders.

      The moral of the story is not to get involved in smuggling arms from the US to Iran.

      I no longer want to visit the US either, but it's not because they're trying to stop international arms smugglers.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    95. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      you seem to hold a Manichaeistic viewpoint that believes the government is inherently evil and individuals are inherently good

      This is slashdot, of course he does.

      Anything else is socialist fascist liberalism, and probably involves limiting the number of machine guns you can buy at once.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    96. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      Government is still the lesser of two evils.

      Unless you are a megalomaniac multi billionaire living inside a hollowed out volcano, of course.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    97. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Cytotoxic · · Score: 1

      You can adjust your W-2 (is that the right form?) so that you don't have any (Federal) income tax withheld. I don't think you can do that for other deductions, though.

      You could, but you have to have within 10% of your final tax bill withheld to avoid penalties.

      I suppose you intended to tell him he could adjust his employer's withholding to better match his deductions so that his net tax bill would be close to zero. This is sound advice. Nobody should let the government hold their money for free if they can help it.

    98. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Cytotoxic · · Score: 1

      Keeping advanced weaponry and/or the components thereof out of the hands of people who are championing our destruction has no bearing whatsoever on your liberty. You're creating a false equivalence. Have fun trying to exercise your liberty when you're dead.

      Oh, I'd say it is definitely an infringement on individual liberty. It is just that we have decided that the security of the nation supersedes the freedom to sell arms to enemies of the nation.

      You have to admit, there's a certain logic to avoiding selling rope to your lynch mob.....

    99. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

      Google "FATCA"

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    100. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TWX · · Score: 2

      It may be a bad symptom, but if you're not an American trying to return to America, then America has no obligation to take you if you're not in some state of duress and seeking asylum. Antagonizing the border guards is not exactly the best way to approach a foreign country.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    101. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The moral of this story is:
      3) Encrypt your hard drive, make sure to shut down before walking through security, and remember "I do not recollect" was good enough for Reagan.

      "A few months ago, I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and evidence tell me it is not." - Ronald Reagan, admitting the Iran-Contra Affair, March 1987

      So something like:
      "My heart and best intentions tell me that I do not have that password."

    102. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by pla · · Score: 1

      I believe the correct response to extremist right wing guff like this is "fuck off to Somalia then you retard".

      As a liberal, do you actually approve of your tax dollars funding the killing of brown people on the other side of the planet because something something terrorism ?

    103. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to arrive unmolested you might try not taking part in an ongoing criminal conspiracy.

      The problem is precedent - it's only going to get easier to make full copies of data, so if some restraints aren't put on the process now, it's only a matter of time before they simply make a copy out of *everyone's* data as a routine step in crossing the border. They can dig through it at their leisure - or just dump it in the data mines for when they need something to pin on you.

    104. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by TechnoJoe · · Score: 0

      The US Government hacked the computer of a CBS reporter and planted classified documents . Full disk encryption is the only way to stop them from planting evidence.

      On a less malicious note, your computer has hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of files. You don't know every single file is clean, even if it's a clean install. "Oh I'm just going to go to this one site, do this one thing, and then I'll cross the border." Well, that one thing can do it. Better to not let them see it, whether you think it's clean or not.

    105. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by unrtst · · Score: 1

      Just use an encrypted drive, and auto-enter the password (so to speak), or give it to them if they ask. Still do the fresh install, but if you use an encrypted drive, then you don't have to worry about wiping it, nor about SSD sectors that can't be rewritten - just change the key, fresh install, write the key on a post it taped to the front of the laptop.

    106. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you think the point of the NDAA was ?

    107. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The point of the NDAA was to authorize defense spending.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    108. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Do you have examples of US government bad guys who tortured people to extract passwords? Or are you making that up?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    109. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      As a non-resident who doesn't file (And is known by the IRS), I say they still don't. If they did go after me, they'd file for me, then charge me for what I owe, plus penalties. For the working class, that's zero.

      So they could spend money forcing me to file, and getting nothing, or ignore me. They ignore me. And the millions like me. They go after the 10,000 or so that make millions, not the millions that make a living wage.

    110. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by bhiestand · · Score: 2

      Two points.

      1) for spinning platters, being able to recover significant amounts of data after even one pass of zeros is a myth. See this article on recovering overwritten data or any of the top google results.

      2) SSDs are different, but far easier to wipe if you get a good model. There is an ATA Secure Erase command, and you can use it directly with hdparm on linux. It takes seconds to wipe most SSDs this way.

      However, firmware implementation of this is spotty. You will find some studies showing secure erase failures. But the paper is 4 years old, and manufacturers seem to have gotten better. So if you're REALLY concerned about this level of security, encrypt your SSDs and find a manufacturer that properly ATA Sanitize Block Erase.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    111. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, I pay taxes in the US, thereby providing material support to a terrorist organization

      I hate to burst your bubble, but most definitions of "terrorism" explicitly exclude state actors.

      You could certainly argue that that is an artificial constraint designed to protect states from the accusation, but then you'd have to come up with a better definition. There are a few out there, but in all honesty, they tend to suck.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    112. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by burbilog · · Score: 1

      Similar problem with deniable encryption. [wikipedia.org] It sounds great, but if the bad guys think you've fooled them, they'll just keep beating you with the $5 wrench [xkcd.com] even after you've broken and given them the real password.

      The purpose of deniable encryption is not to hide something from thugs with hot iron but from LEGAL authorities. In some jurisdictions you must give up your keys or face jail time, but if you give up some keys from deniable system they can't prove that you have something else on that encrypted drive and thus you avoid jail time, loss of the job, etc.

      I don't understand this idiotic binary logic -- if it can't protect you from the torture than you should not do it at all. Deniable encryption has its place and alas, there is no sensible password manager with it :(

    113. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      OK, so take this another step farther. Move you and your money to a country that does not have reciprocity with the United States, or where that reciprocity would never be acted on in practice. There are plenty of these countries.

    114. Re:More hoops before travelling through USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only where the "state actors" are the US and co... the former governments of countries including but not limited to Iraq and Afghanistan were "state actors" and were defined as "terrorists".

  3. Violators. by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... agents created an identical image of Kim's entire computer hard drive ...

    So in addition to conducting an illegal search, they also violated several copyrights.

    1. Re:Violators. by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 4, Informative

      Funny how that works.

      Ironically though, this is pretty standard forensic practice. If you look at the active original, there's all kinds of possibility of tampering that could go on, even unwittingly. It's akin to trampling through a potential crime scene with no gloves, hair nets, etc, possibly while bleeding profusely over everything in sight.

      Instead, computer forensic investigators are supposed to create an image of the disk, and then they can look through that image. This is also for the defendent's protection too, since this way if the prosecution does something shady, the defense can use its own copy to point that out.

    2. Re:Violators. by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 3, Informative

      And to clarify, that doesn't mean that the seizure of the laptop or the resulting search of the hard drive was or should have been legal, just that the copying was standard forensic practice for doing so. Just because the cop wears gloves and avoids getting fingerprints on your car doesn't mean that he wasn't illegally searching it in the first place.

  4. Do criminals live in a different world? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is, do criminals live in a world without disk encryption?

  5. How long before Obama fires this judge? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    How long will it be before Obama tries to defrock this judge, or until the judge just turns up in a ditch somewhere?

    1. Re:How long before Obama fires this judge? by schwit1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He will have the IRS turn the guy's life upside down. Civil forfeiture and financial account freezes are the modern torture.

    2. Re:How long before Obama fires this judge? by dunkindave · · Score: 3, Informative

      First it is a she. Amy Berman Jackson was appointed as a US DIstrict Court Judge by Obama in 2011.

  6. Simply a "container," by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

    The government argued that a laptop was simply a "container,"

    They x-rayed it and it obviously wasn't full of explosives and it's not a liquid container of 3 ounces (or less) in a "one quart sized, clear plastic bag".

    If they can prove that the files on the computer can somehow explode and be an imminent threat to the flight he was on, I might agree with the TSA. Otherwise I hope this judges decision is upheld. It would be a nice baby step toward having our constitutional rights restored.

  7. Easier to get forgiveness than permission... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What troubles me most is the mindset that allows this kind of bullshit to occur regularly- - and I can only assume it's because there is a now a concrete pattern of never prosecuting government officials for crimes like this.

    The long-term message that comes from NOT prosecuting government torturers, mass surveillance-ers and directors who lie to congress is there will be no consequences, so there is no reason to stop. Is it Snowden who should be prosecuted, or every person who works at the NSA, knew what was happening and that it coudln't possibly be legal, and did NOT speak up?

    PS- hi, nsa

  8. Burners by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is why I never fly with my primary computer, but with a burner laptop - usually a Chromebook that has just been reset to factory defaults and hasn't even been reconnected to Google yet.

    1. Re:Burners by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey -- a Chromebook is my primary computer, you insensitive clod!

    2. Re:Burners by snsh · · Score: 1

      Do you physically snap the burner laptop in half after each use, like on Breaking Bad?

    3. Re:Burners by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Do you physically snap the burner laptop in half after each use, like on Breaking Bad?

      You have to eat the laptop to be sure.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    4. Re:Burners by Lilith's+Heart-shape · · Score: 1

      I use a sledgehammer.

  9. Career decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So much for the chance that Amy Jackson will ever be nominated to serve on the US Supreme Court.

    1. Re:Career decision by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She's a democratic nomination, and Obama's term will be over before the next US Supreme Court position opens. If the next president is a democrat, she's still got a (very small) chance, depending on how much she (compared to her competition) can raise in campaign contributions. If the next president is a republican, then the position will go to a republican campaign contributor of whatever variety is preferred by the administration at the time.

      This case will have absolutely no affect on her chances of that nomination.

  10. There has never been any justification by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    So long as an American citizen is travelling within the US, even if by air, there is no justification for any search or seizure of his or her personal documents, thoughts, or even religion.

    My laptop may contain personal information, and only with a specific court order by a judge (not a blanket warrant for "all Americans") can they force us to reveal our personal data or thoughts.

    It doesn't matter what their excuse is.

    Can they scan it for potential hazards, or ask us to turn it on to "prove" it is not a hazard?

    Sure.

    But that is all the Gestapo can do.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:There has never been any justification by geekmux · · Score: 1

      So long as an American citizen is travelling within the US, even if by air, there is no justification for any search or seizure of his or her personal documents, thoughts, or even religion.

      My laptop may contain personal information, and only with a specific court order by a judge (not a blanket warrant for "all Americans") can they force us to reveal our personal data or thoughts.

      It doesn't matter what their excuse is.

      Can they scan it for potential hazards, or ask us to turn it on to "prove" it is not a hazard?

      Sure.

      But that is all the Gestapo can do.

      You let me know how good you feel after $10,000 is spent on lawyers fees and you "win" your case against the Gestapo here.

      Oh don't worry, You're right. The problem is it's going to cost YOU several thousand dollars to simply defend yourself and PROVE you're right.

    2. Re:There has never been any justification by Tokolosh · · Score: 1

      $10,000? Drug! Civil forfeiture!

      Now try to defend yourself.

      --
      Prove anything by multiplying Huge Number times Tiny Number
    3. Re:There has never been any justification by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      my work laptop contains digital certificates, VPN software, etc that could potentially be used in some giant "cyber attack" on the SABRE system, AA, USAIR, DOE, etc. If I was ever subjected to any of this, I would use all my jargon to scare them away from even opening it up...especially seeing as we also support a few DHS apps, US Navy, etc. Not that there is anything on the laptop that's illegal, I'd do it just to screw with them. Something like "well, sure, you CAN look in it if you want...but I will have to file a report with the Cyber Defense Center because you are not authorized and this would be a Unauthorized Information Disclosure event. I'll need your name, badge number, and a contact phone number for your direct management. The FBI might be contacting you too, and your manager."

      Honestly, I'd LOVE for this to happen...

    4. Re:There has never been any justification by tehcyder · · Score: 2

      Can they scan it for potential hazards, or ask us to turn it on to "prove" it is not a hazard?

      Sure.

      But that is all the Gestapo can do.

      Yes, and that's why they're nothing like the actual fucking Gestapo.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  11. Backwards much? by wldcordeiro · · Score: 1

    It's rather astounding that they went through the search and then decided that it was worth requesting the warrant. Did it never occur to them that they were doing things backwards?

    1. Re:Backwards much? by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But, honestly, with the bullshit "we can do a border search at an airport and within 100 miles of the border", they probably figured they didn't need to.

      They've already been told they have search powers that are effectively unconstitutional, but some how magically legal.

      Which means they felt they could bypass the law by doing the search in an airport, and then using that as grounds for a warrant.

      Evidence that, once again, law enforcement is taking advantage of all of the stupid rules which allow them to bypass the law.

      As much as the judge shut them down, you can bet your ass this was a conscious strategy and not a mistake.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Backwards much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're used to getting illegally obtained intel from other three letter organizations, creating a parallel "investigation", then getting the warrants. Looks like they just forgot a step...

    3. Re:Backwards much? by TubeSteak · · Score: 1

      But, honestly, with the bullshit "we can do a border search at an airport and within 100 miles of the border", they probably figured they didn't need to.

      They've already been told they have search powers that are effectively unconstitutional, but some how magically legal.

      There's nothing bullshit about the border search exception.
      It was defacto law before it was dejure law and it was done before The United States were United.

      Yes, 100 miles from the border is nonsense, but the basic principle existed long before the Constitution did.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
  12. this exactly. by nimbius · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The American Civil Liberties Union has long maintained that the authorities invoke the border exception rule to the warrant requirement to build cases when they don't have probable cause to get a warrant.

    shocking enough, the border rule works up to 200 miles inland. People often forget law enforcement agents are not your friends, and generally do not have your best interest in mind. they can and do lie, falsify evidence, and purjor themselves on witness stands. They will rifle through suitcases and backpacks without a warrant, in the hopes you forget about that right. They will strike, kick, and even kill you for attempting to exercise rights or hold them accountable. Prosecutors and DA's offices care more about a successful conviction than a fair one, and so will often target a suspect with a litany of flimsy charges and lengthy jail time. The hope is that you accept a plea-bargain, convict yourself, and save everyone the discomfort of learning how many of these charges will not stand up in court.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:this exactly. by fatwilbur · · Score: 2

      Perhaps I'm just becoming more cynical in my older age, but I just don't think the majority of people care anymore about how the police act. I think there's two human aspects working against us, in the police and general public:

      1. A large majority of the population (at least <50%) when placed in a position of power, will feel superior and disrespectful towards those they have power over. Thus they become corrupt. Pretty much most of human social history is an attempt to prevent and eventually overthrow the inevitable corruption that comes with power, and we are nowhere near a foolproof system yet.

      2. I would bet that, most people if asked, would secretly think the police should do these things "yeah against other people..but not me". People will always support this crap because they are selfish and see this as being control they can place on other people. All the establishment has to do is make sure they target a subset of the population, then it's always "someone else's problem" to voters.

  13. FedEx your power supply... by GrandCow · · Score: 1

    And leave the battery at 1%?

    I'm not sure how intricate they get with laptops, Are you just required to show that it turns on? They can't rifle through it if it's out of juice. Or do they keep an emergency set of generic power adapters?

    --
    "Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
    1. Re:FedEx your power supply... by thaylin · · Score: 1

      then they still just start keeping a few power cables laying around.

      --
      When you cant win, ad hominem.
    2. Re:FedEx your power supply... by LessThanObvious · · Score: 2

      Some airports don't allow you to carry on a device that can't be powered on. It's harder to hide something in a functional device than one that doesn't function I guess is the theory.

    3. Re:FedEx your power supply... by GrandCow · · Score: 1

      Hence the battery at 1% idea. Show them it turns on, then 60 seconds later it's dead.

      --
      "Well kids, you tried your best, and you failed. The lesson is, never try." -Homer Simpson
    4. Re:FedEx your power supply... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      And leave the battery at 1%?

      I'm not sure how intricate they get with laptops, Are you just required to show that it turns on? They can't rifle through it if it's out of juice. Or do they keep an emergency set of generic power adapters?

      It probably depends on how much of a cock you're being, and whether they have any intelligence that there is anything illegal there. If they want to, they can always impound the machine for a while, until you remember where the power adapter is.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  14. Who exactly can't bother to read? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) The TSA and assorted related three letter agencies don't give a crap about due process or warrants anyways

    I highlighted the part you chose to ignore, which does cover DHS (and the FBI, CIA, ATF, etc.. etc..). Next time you want to yell about someone else not reading a f*&king article, make sure you are not guilty of something worse.

  15. B I N G O ! by redelm · · Score: 1

    People do not realize the US has always exerted strong export controls. These accelerometers are most likely ECCN 7A001 (maybe 7A101) and software for their control 7D001 and drawings/specs 7E002 . All highly controlled.

    I see no legal reason the border search exemption should be symmetric (incoming/outgoing) since the consequences are different -- inbound contraband can always be later seized; what is lost to outside is gone. DHS should have searched laptop and seized it if controlled material found (as in imminent danger of being experted.) Copy & release was very wrong.

    I strongly suspect this ruling will be appealed and overturned, at least in part.

    1. Re: B I N G O ! by TheCarp · · Score: 2

      Yes its true, people are too busy going around pretending to live in a free country when the truth is, anything some luddite in the government can make a flimsy justification is something you have no freedom to do anymore. free.....to do whats approved by our masters.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  16. Travelers' SecOps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You should expect the unexpected search and seizure everywhere. Put your stuff somewhere in the cloud under a few super duper locks and travel with no tech gear or burner gear. Another alternative is to travel with devices reset to factory settings. If you need a phone in case of an emergency, get a pre-paid feature phone.

  17. What's a "software program" by diodeus · · Score: 1, Funny

    "with the assistance of two forensic software programs that organized, expedited, and facilitated the task."

    Oh, a "software program"... As opposed to a hardware program? an exercise program? What's wrong with just calling it "software",

    1. Re:What's a "software program" by canadiannomad · · Score: 1

      I used my PIN number to get some cash bills out of the ATM machine to pay for a software program?

      --
      Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
    2. Re:What's a "software program" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As distinct from a burecratic program, like the program that [hypothetical TLA] runs to do [covert hypothetical computer stuff].

    3. Re:What's a "software program" by Your.Master · · Score: 1

      Because "two forensic softwares" is ungrammatical.

      It's like asking why somebody said they had two works of art when "works of art" could be replaced with just "art" without confusion. You can't just say you have "two arts". You could say you have "some art" but now you've lost information from the sentence.

      Program is countable, but software is linguistically uncountable.

    4. Re:What's a "software program" by canadiannomad · · Score: 1

      Quit making sense!

      Remember, this is /.

      --
      Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
    5. Re:What's a "software program" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because "two forensic softwares" is ungrammatical.

      Yet the Zuckerberg and Gates "Fuck to Code" propaganda always says "software codes are a skill everybody must learn" and "the programme codes are written in Python." Maybe I should code some codes.

    6. Re:What's a "software program" by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      "with the assistance of two forensic software programs that organized, expedited, and facilitated the task."

      Oh, a "software program"... As opposed to a hardware program? an exercise program? What's wrong with just calling it "software",

      A "forensic program" would not have to involve software (or computers) at all.

      "Program" is a standard shorthand for "computer program" but "program" can mean other things too.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  18. Remove hard drive by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    Take the HDD out. pack it in air bladders, ship it to the location you are going to, or to the hotel. Fly with the laptop, sans hard drive, or another that's just windows. Then when you get to your destination pop in the "real" HDD.

    1. Re:Remove hard drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why not just ship the whole laptop then?

  19. Observance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ever notice that police are quick to cite a court rulling when the works in their favor, but when it is a ruling the police don't like, then they have a very selective memory.

  20. Been through it by mnmn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was asked to login into my phone emails and facebook on the laptop flying back to Miami from Bahamas in my private plane.

    4 officers took over an hour going over all pictures in my camera, emails going way way back, friends posts on facebook and facebook messages some over a year old.

    I gave them all access immediately, but then asked about this process and they gave me a CBSA leaflet that explained if I denied them access they will confiscate the device, copy the contents and ship it back to me.

    I got to keep my electronics because I gave them immediate access even though it cost me long distance data plans there.

    Being a Canadian citizen, I dont think I have any teeth to complain to anyone but our own politicians here. And all they can do is make life miserable for US citizens entering Canada in retaliation.

    I'm just so glad I havent cracked any stupid jokes regarding violence, drugs or terrorism in the last 1-2 years in any facebook messages or comments.

    --
    "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
    1. Re:Been through it by snsh · · Score: 1

      I'm just so glad I havent cracked any stupid jokes regarding violence, drugs or terrorism in the last 1-2 years in any facebook messages or comments.

      Next time you enter Miami they're going to make you log into your Slashdot account, read that post, and send you to Guantanamo.

    2. Re:Been through it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WOW, I *WISH* they'd try that crap on me. I'm worth enough to actually file lawsuits and back up my threats.

      I'd have refused, then laughed hard as I mentioned the drive is fully encrypted. I also have said "No you will NOT be taking my hardware, until I'm presumed guilty of a crime, I passed the airport checkpoint, you can leave me alone now or am I being detained, if so for what cause....

      But again I am *prepared*. Devices pre-encrypted with over 100 digit passwords that I memorized like a song. I also have a few hidden cameras on my body which I'd never mention and then use their verbal abuse against them in court or leak the videos to youtube.

      I already don't carry a cell phone, have never used facebook in my life, I am most definitely a terrorist since I talk about hating the NSA and I'm always talking about writing new encryption that isn't backdoored and telling people to ignore the whole "If you ain't a PhD don't write crypto" lie that tricks people into using "pre-broken" encryption.

      So yeah, I wish they'd try that crap on me.... Everytime I fly I'm prepared and nothing happens. I'm actively egging them on and random people like YOU are getting harassed. :(

    3. Re:Been through it by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I was asked to login into my phone emails and facebook on the laptop flying back to Miami from Bahamas in my private plane.

      Lucky for you it distracted them from the suitcase of cocaine under the seat.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    4. Re:Been through it by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      WOW, I *WISH* they'd try that crap on me. I'm worth enough to actually file lawsuits and back up my threats.

      I'd have refused, then laughed hard as I mentioned the drive is fully encrypted. I also have said "No you will NOT be taking my hardware, until I'm presumed guilty of a crime, I passed the airport checkpoint, you can leave me alone now or am I being detained, if so for what cause....

      But again I am *prepared*. Devices pre-encrypted with over 100 digit passwords that I memorized like a song. I also have a few hidden cameras on my body which I'd never mention and then use their verbal abuse against them in court or leak the videos to youtube.

      I already don't carry a cell phone, have never used facebook in my life, I am most definitely a terrorist since I talk about hating the NSA and I'm always talking about writing new encryption that isn't backdoored and telling people to ignore the whole "If you ain't a PhD don't write crypto" lie that tricks people into using "pre-broken" encryption.

      So yeah, I wish they'd try that crap on me.... Everytime I fly I'm prepared and nothing happens. I'm actively egging them on and random people like YOU are getting harassed. :(

      ...and also, I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills...

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:Been through it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Being a Canadian citizen, I dont think I have any teeth to complain to anyone but our own politicians here. And all they can do is make life miserable for US citizens entering Canada in retaliation.

      As a Canadian citizen, I simply refuse to travel to the US anymore (certainly not as a tourist). It's just not worth the risk and hassle.

  21. Border Search Exception by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    TSA et al have done the exact same thing with the laptops of people who aren't suspected of any criminal activity.

    TSA doesn't conduct border searches; you fail on the very first sentence of your post. Border searches are typically conducted by ICE.

    Actually, it's really irrelevant *which* agency does the search for these purposes. The question is the permissible scope of the border search exception, which is the same regardless of agency.

    Fundamentally, arguments against the border search exception are usually weak. The Fourth Amendment was written largely by the same people who sat in the First Congress, and the First Congress explicitly granted customs officials the power to do thorough searches of ships, etc... in order to regulate contraband coming into the United States. Therefore we *know* that they considered such warrantless searches to be "reasonable" under the Fourth Amendment.

    Laptops present a somewhat new issue because of how much of an intrusion a search of them represents, and there has been a little bit of pushback against *destructive* searches of people's property absent at least reasonable suspicion, but as a general rule the United States can do pretty much whatever it wants at its own border.

    1. Re:Border Search Exception by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's really irrelevant *which* agency does the search for these purposes.

      I agree with this point; all I'll say is that it's relevant as an indictment of the lack of knowledge on the part of the people who are screaming the loudest in this thread. They didn't even read the bloody ruling, they just saw the headline and started checking off the talking points.

      but as a general rule the United States can do pretty much whatever it wants at its own border.

      That was one of the more interesting parts of the ruling. The Judge seemed to think that it would have been okay to fire up the laptop and go through it at the border. She was not okay with sending it off to another Special Agent 150 miles away who imaged the hard drive and spent weeks combing it for evidence. The border search exception was not meant to provide agents of the Government with limitless amounts of time to comb through someone's property.

      Of course, firing up the laptop may change the evidence contained therein, which was a point made by the Agents on this case. It's a valid point but it doesn't change the underlying nature of the border search exception. With the body of probable cause against this particular individual I can't fathom why (aside from laziness) they didn't seize the laptop through traditional means (warrant) rather than relying on the border search exception.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Border Search Exception by diamondmagic · · Score: 1

      Those same people also passed the Alien and Sedition Acts. Saying "The first Congress did it" is not generally a good argument for interpreting the Constitution.

      And the Constitution does permit states to perform inspections on imports, though they can't tax them for revenue:

      No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws

      Though I'm actually not sure how inspection of imports is constitutional Federally, it clearly should be given the threat of invasive species, I'm guessing the Framers figured state-level control is sufficient.

    3. Re:Border Search Exception by chadenright · · Score: 1

      If you quoted that right, then it says that given a set of laws regarding the inspection of imports and exports, a state may lay,without the consent of the Congress, imports and duties sufficient to pay for that inspection.

    4. Re:Border Search Exception by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

      Those same people also passed the Alien and Sedition Acts. Saying "The first Congress did it" is not generally a good argument for interpreting the Constitution.

      It is nevertheless the doctrinal origin of the border search exception. Personally I find much better arguments lie in the massive harm that can be done by importing contraband today--post WW-1, you have weapons like the machine gun. Post WW-2, you have the atomic bomb. Today you have highly developed bio-threats.

      Of course, a search of your *computer* doesn't help much with those...

    5. Re:Border Search Exception by Cacadril · · Score: 1

      Searching ships for contraband is reasonable. Imaging laptops for contraband is not. I haven't RTFA, but I understand from the comments that the officers were not looking for contraband at all, but rather for leads in an ongoing criminal case.

      If your country has laws regulating when and how much law enforcement can violate your privacy and your freedom, law enforcement should respect that and not circumvent those laws by abusing regulations made for an entirely different purpose. If lawmakers found it reasonable to set limits to the searching powers of law enforcement when the suspect is inland, why should the balance of interests be any different when the suspect is at the border? That is, unless his being at the border has some relation to the issues.

      --
      There is no substitute for common sense. Especially, no body of rules will do.
  22. Simple solution by TheCarp · · Score: 1

    We just need to realize this.... EVERY illegal search is depravation of rights under color of law. EVERY time evidence is tossed by a court, there should be felony charges filed against someone for having collected it in the first place....no matter what that evidence is, or why they thought it was ok. No Exceptions.

    I don't get to claim I thought my actions were legal, why should they? If my ignorance is no excuse, why is the ignorance of a professional an excuse?

    Start locking a few of these rogue agents up for a decade or so and see how privacy rights start getting a bit more respect, and the government itself too....because it will be respecting the promises it made to us in order for us to allow it to exist.

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    1. Re: Simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As much as I share your conviction that unrestricted surveillance is wrong, I imagine locking up agents would be the motivating factor for congress to give immunity and let snoopers go wild. I guess it is going to have to get worse before it gets better.

    2. Re:Simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everything is as black and white as you make it. Just because the court rules a piece of evidence inadmissible doesn't mean the person collecting the evidence should have obviously known he was violating someone's civil rights. There are shades of gray, judgment calls we trust the courts to make after the fact.
      The penalty for such violations of the Fourth Amendment (as judged in this later, deliberative process) is exclusion of the tainted evidence. IMO, that's as it should be.

    3. Re:Simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We just need to realize this.... EVERY illegal search is depravation of rights under color of law. EVERY time evidence is tossed by a court, there should be felony charges filed against someone for having collected it in the first place....no matter what that evidence is, or why they thought it was ok. No Exceptions.

      Can you show me a single prosecutor with the stones to actually invoke Title 18 Section 242 against overreaching law enforcement? Most have aspirations to a higher political office and prosecuting law enforcement shows they are not a team player.

    4. Re:Simple solution by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      Except these are law enforcement professionals. They really should know when they are violating someones rights, and really, should take more than ample precautions to make sure they don't, and frankly, I see little evidence that they are so incentivized.

      Also, the theoretical "punishment" of having evidence excluded has proven to be nowhere near enough deterrent. They put other people's skin in the game, their own deserves to be in as much jeapordy. Honestly, I think we should do away with pleas entirely and require a jury for any criminal punishment at all....and require criminal punishment for every charge, if not the charged, then the prosecutor.

      The current legal theories this system is working under are clearly so flawed as to be laughable and its time to start making fundamental changes to cut back this human meat grinder.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    5. Re:Simple solution by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      This is why I suggest a new system....do away with professional prosecution. Let the DA do what prep work he needs to file charges, then, go to the SAME pool that public defenders are chosen from, and choose a prosecutor at random for the case.

      Clearly you then give an appointed prosecutor the ability to file charges that result from facts which came to light from his case, including against the DA if need be.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  23. Explain this to me. I don't believe it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does rifling through files on someone's laptop ever give them hope of finding something hidden?
    For years I had a machine with a measly 40GB HDD. Half the time I couldn't find my own stuff, when I was looking for it.
    Like "Aw crap, where did I put those pictures, was that 2008 or 2009?"
    "Oh, I need to download Handbrake.", and 2 minutes later, "Oh wait, I already had it."
    "I could have sworn I started typing up a letter to Joe..."
    "Where did I put Tempest 2000? Was that in 'games', 'DOS games', or 'old_games'?"

    I can't believe I'm the only person like that.
    Also, I can't imagine how much junk everyone else here, with their 4TB HDDs, has on their laptops.

    Okay, I agree, it's a total invasion of privacy, but seriously, do they ever find anything?
    Are they looking for a folder called "assassination plans" on the desktop?
    Are they just trying to see if a person panics?

    1. Re:Explain this to me. I don't believe it. by msim · · Score: 1

      This makes me feel a bit better. Also makes me feel like a bit of an ass for being so lame about my computer organisational skills, both on my pc and on backups.

      --

      Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know when your gonna get food poisoning.
    2. Re:Explain this to me. I don't believe it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does rifling through files on someone's laptop ever give them hope of finding something hidden?

      It's easy. If they don't find anything incriminating, they will install something incriminating themselves. It is the same principle as the dime bag that most cops have to "find" in someone's car if an illegal search doesn't turn up anything.

    3. Re:Explain this to me. I don't believe it. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      It's easy. If they don't find anything incriminating, they will install something incriminating themselves.

      Why, exactly?

      I'm curious. Because if it's that easy, I don't understand why everyone isn't in prison by now.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  24. Ok so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will any of these bastards have their ass kicked? Will they serve any jail time for breaking the law or is the law something only regular citizens break and get punished for?

    Because you see... if these bastards can keep doing whatever they please without any consequence, then the law that should protect us is totally useless. They will just re-do the same the next time as if nothing has happened.

  25. What a waste of EVERYONES time by Lenny1791 · · Score: 0

    I've read every comment and no one has said the obvious - Why are they so intent on searching a laptop anyhow? The way I see it, there are 3 possibilities 1) You're a normal person with a bunch of crap on your laptop that won't help the government 2) You are actually smuggling data you shouldn't be, in which case you are not stupid enough to carry it on your person (I.e. leave it in the cloud, simple) 3) You are the dumbest mofo in the history of smuggling or terrorism and you actually are carrying something incriminating. I doubt this has EVER happened, and assume the probability is 1 in a billion. Seriously... What a fucking waste of time. Do they really think terrorists are going to be that stupid? No. This is all a ruse to look for other shit.

    1. Re:What a waste of EVERYONES time by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Lots of terrorists and terrorist sympathisers are, in fact, incredibly stupid.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  26. Going through it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    March 25, 2015 arrived at DTW from HKG-ICN-DTW Delta Flight. Was one of two passengers I saw selected for CBP inspection. Interrogated by two CBP officers who finally admitted that due to my routing that month (DTW-SFO-MNL, MNL-CAN, HKG-ICN-DTW) and travelling alone as a middle aged, white, male, their computers had profiled me as a potential sex trafficker. I have BPO in Manila for 4 years, new client in CAN and flight was cheaper and more direct taking bus to HGK and flying with layover in ICN.

    CBP agents then apologized said this was a horrible thing that they were being required to do, and that they were going to get me out of there, but that they would have to inspect my electronic devices and asked for the passwords. So I gave them thinking they could quickly see there is nothing illicit on them. But no....they come back with receipt signed by "J. Edward" and advise that since they don't have the equipment at DTW Airport to inspect - the devices will have to be sent for inspection and returned to me per the regs in 30 days.

    The receipts have a place for putting in the contact information of who I am supposed to call about my seized property, but that wasn't filled out. (and don't for a minute I was in any jet lagged and dehydrated physical condition to think of arguing with these guys with guns. they could have raped me and I would have just asked them to please finish quickly. that's the psychological state many people are going to be in after a 12 hour international flight and 1 hour interrogation about where you were, who you saw and all.)

    35 days after the seizure I am looking who to call, and no number on the receipt, so I go back to DTW and the CBP office, where I am told that there is no J. Edwards at the airport. J Edwards has an office "downtown Detroit" And one of the CBP officer calls me back later in the day with the number for J. Edwards. By then I have to ask, "How did J. Edwards signature get on my receipt?" Dude doesn't even have an office at airport.....and that's why they did not fill out his contact information, whomever signed J Edwards name, did not even know J. Edwards contact information.

    So I call J. Edwards. He apologizes for the delay. Advises me that my nexus 5, Ipad Air, and Lenovo Yoga 3 are sitting on his back shelf, but since he is the only person covering this big area for Homeland Security and is constantly getting devices that could be linked to actual terrorist activity dumped on him for immediate inspection, he could not make any promises, but said he'd "hope" to get to it in 10 days. That was 12 days ago.

    Being professionally involved in transport, I can't attack CBP, TSA or Homeland Security. Many of the people I've met in those organizations are perfectly nice. J. Edwards seem perfectly nice. But if property is being taken under color of law and the law, can't even fill out the forms according to "the law" and can't even get around to inspecting 3 devices - none of which have a disk drive - in 45 days - WTF???

    This is just embarrassing. And to add injury to injury, I get home and my 5 year old has in my absence, seized my Kindle.....so no more The Good Wife on Amazon Prime for me....instead Kindle is tied up with Shaun the Sheep.

    And - I've had to replace my Nexus....with a Nexus 6....any advice on the battery life for the Nexus 6.

    I did talk to an attorney who specializes in these cases, but generally people are only willing to pay the $20k to file suit when there is something on their devices that results in criminal charges - then they are getting the evidence quashed on the seizure violation. In my case he said a threatening letter from an attorney would get the goods back within 24 hours - but the letter is going to cost as much as the devices.

    I feel raped. I feel raped by this government. I feel raped by whomever gave them the regulatory power to do this. I feel that a number of people who work for the government, are just standing around watching me and others get raped and i

    1. Re:Going through it by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I was expecting this to turn into a MyCleanPC spam post.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
  27. OK, so it's a box or container. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Then open the lid. Look at it. See if there's anything illegal sticking to the screen or keyboard. Anything? No? Then close it, just like it is a container or box.

    You don't put a wooden crate through a lathe to see if the wood is hiding cocaine. And you don't see any digital information on the chips, you have to run the computer and get it to interpret the invisible patterns. And a box or container does none of that. So it goes well beyond treating the laptop (or HDD, etc) as a container.

    If it's supposed to be a container, then treat it like one. And you don't switch on containers or run programs on them. You open them up, non-destructively, and look inside.

    Since the laptop is opened up by lifting the lid, then that is what "opening the box" is. No user serviceable parts inside.

  28. I had 40 blank USBs retained and searched by forensic.tech · · Score: 2

    The TSA are idiots with no common sense. While I worked for a national security related police agency I was sent to Mexico to train their federal police officers. I had a plane change in New Jersey. Well the TSA decided that the 40 USBs in my bag, all brand new and still sealed in their packages, were "suspicious". So my plane left the US without any of my computer equipment - and of course no one told me. Everything was clearly labeled, I was travelling on a special government passport, and my police business card was attached to the bag with the equipment. The TSA folks opened all the USB wrappers and scanned every single one of the 40 blank USBs before sending them the next day on another plane. I now avoid the US on international flights as well as for tourism in general.

  29. Why are they allowed to copy your artifacts? by lamer01 · · Score: 1

    Are they allowed to do that with any other 'searches' that do not include a warrant? I mean, let's say that instead of a laptop you carried a briefcase full of documents. Could they photocopy those documents?

  30. Give travelers a meaningful way to say "no" by davidwr · · Score: 1

    All outbound travelers should have a meaningful way of saying "no, I don't want you to search this thing. Hold it for me until I get back or until the person I designate retrieves it. I will pay reasonable and customary storage charges." The same option should be given for "not allowed on the plane" items like over-sized bottles, etc. where the flyer would not otherwise be arrested (in other words, either arrest and charge the person with a crime or give him the option of not having his "contraband" forfeited/trashed).

    All inbound travelers should be able to say "no, I do not give you permission to search it. If it is suspected of being too dangerous to transport (e.g. explosives) you may destroy it at my expense, otherwise you may either ship it back to my home country at my expense or hold it until my departure and I will pay reasonable and customary storage costs."

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.