Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Triggering a Mouse's Happy Memories With Lasers Gives It the Will To Struggle On

Posted by timothy on from the how-do-they-know-it's-a-happy-memory? dept.

the_newsbeagle writes: With optogenetics, scientists can tag neurons with light-responsive proteins, and then trigger those neurons to "turn on" with the pulse of a light. In the latest application, MIT researchers used light to turn on certain neurons in male mice's hippocampi that were associated with a happy memory (coming into contact with female mice!), and then tested whether that artificially activated memory changed the mice's reactions to a stressful situation (being hung by their tails). Mice who got jolted with the happy memory struggled to get free for longer than the control mice. This tail-suspension test was developed to screen potential antidepressant drugs: If a rodent struggles longer before giving up, it's considered less depressed.

37 of 66 comments (clear)

  1. Repulsive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I know this kind of thing needs to be done. Still I find it repulsive from an emotional point of view.

    1. Re:Repulsive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When the time comes you should definitely opt out of any medical technique or drug that was tested on mice (hint: all of them). Don't want to be a hypocrite!

    2. Re:Repulsive by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      I know this kind of thing needs to be done. Still I find it repulsive from an emotional point of view.

      Does it? Does it really?

      I get research needing to test on animals but a test like this is not necessary. You can prove the same results using less harmful methods.

    3. Re:Repulsive by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      I know this kind of thing needs to be done. Still I find it repulsive from an emotional point of view.

      I agree that this kind of things (i.e., experiments on animals) needs to be done, and, even as a hypocrite who has tortured animals just for "fun" as a kid, i understand how you feel - my hope is that we can use this emotional repulsiveness to better the lives of any animals we use as livestock (which are far more than animals we use for experiments and also tortured by our current livestock raising methods).

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    4. Re:Repulsive by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      I know this kind of thing needs to be done. Still I find it repulsive from an emotional point of view.

      Does it? Does it really?

      I get research needing to test on animals but a test like this is not necessary. You can prove the same results using less harmful methods.

      I believe that the method used may be one of the less or even the least harmful - keep in mind that for *this* experiment... some harmful method *must* be used... i think!

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    5. Re:Repulsive by pushing-robot · · Score: 2

      ...and the obligatory Onion

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    6. Re:Repulsive by LessThanObvious · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure the results are even that valid. How do you tell the difference between a less depressed mouse struggling and a mouse driven into a rage by having it's brain laser baked whilst being dangled by the tail? I guess we'll just have to stimulate a sad memory and see if those mice just hang there without the will to live.

    7. Re:Repulsive by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      inconveniencing a mouse

      Now there's a euphemism looking for a meaning.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    8. Re:Repulsive by Sowelu · · Score: 1

      "Mice with happy memories struggled longer when the light was on, those with neutral memories showed no change, and those with negative memories struggled less." -tfa

    9. Re:Repulsive by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Err... what would be less harmful than inconveniencing a mouse for six minutes?

      Let me hold you up by an appendage for 6 minutes and see how well you fare.

      The point is that you can do the experiment without having mice involved at all. Subject someone to something they find funny or enjoy to make them happy, test how long they will do an unpleasant/menial task after the fact. Repeat the test with making them angry/upset/depressed/whatever and compare... just as valid as the mouse test but without electro-stimulation or hanging them upsidedown.

    10. Re:Repulsive by pla · · Score: 1

      keep in mind that for *this* experiment... some harmful method *must* be used... i think!

      Why? "Frustration" (or even plain ol' fatigue) has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with "depression" (on the short term).

      The entire premise of this experiment centers on the idea that giving up in a hopeless situation somehow magically forms a biochemical parallel to a long-term human disease state. Sorry, but no, they don't.

      I have no problem with animal testing. This, however, amounts to torturing animals just because one particular subset of well-paid sadists can write it off as some debased form of "science".

    11. Re:Repulsive by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

      Now that we have that cleared up, perhaps we can test it on soldiers that return from war before they commit suicide due to being asked to commit war crimes? This... This might make Trump happy enough to not build a prison wall around the country to make himself feel more where he belongs while he is 'fixing' everything like Hitler promised for Germany. I bet we could implant and recall memories in a five year old child of pulling wings off a fly and it would sell better than cartoon advertising in holiday season.

    12. Re:Repulsive by sleepypsycho · · Score: 3, Informative

      In fact there are relationships, and how these reflect to human models of both behavior and biologically have been studied
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pm...
      The long history of these techniques helps the other show the validity of their work because it is commonly known how reliable and variable the behavior.

      The experiment is interesting in itself, it show that stimulation of the cells associated with a memory as it forms will affect their behavior. Additionally the effect supports the hypothesis on how the stimulation would affect the behavior.

      Of course there are still ethical and moral consideration.. There may in fact be other better ways to investigate the same phenomina or it may be more ethical not to do the research at. However it is not fanciful sadism. It is a serious attempt to extend the understand of optigenetics, memory, behavior and depression

    13. Re:Repulsive by aaronb1138 · · Score: 1

      I hear Bernadette's shrill voice muttering about the one on amphetamines that ripped off it's own tail to get free before disemboweling the others.

    14. Re:Repulsive by pla · · Score: 1

      Nice try, but I've kept both mice and rats as pets.

      "Picking them up against their will" does not equate to hanging them by their tails until they go limp from exhaustion.

      They'll get over picking them up by the tail. That doesn't mean you dangle the toddler by its arms until it passes out from the effort.

    15. Re:Repulsive by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      You have mixed up you objections with at least 2 legit issues: the method used to cause "frustration" to the mouse (which i thought to be "one of the less or even the least harmful" and one anonymous already replied confirming that) and if this experiment can reveal anything about "depression" (for which the fellow Slashdoter "sleepypsycho" answers very well) - i will give an answer about this 'torturing animals just because one particular subset of well-paid sadists can write it off as some debased form of "science"' you write: if you want to sadisticaly torture animals (i.e., just for the "fun"), you do it in the privacy of your home or somewhere else, but not in the lab - just before i wrote the comment you replied to, i wrote some other where i confess that i used to torture animals as a kid... in the lab, any torture is for science, not for "fun".

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    16. Re: Repulsive by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      There's a special place in hell for pharma-industry researchers; apparently it resembles the inside of Richard Gere's ass. :p

    17. Re:Repulsive by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You can prove the same results using less harmful methods.

      [citation needed]

      Pigs or GTFO

      Put up or shut up.

      They all mean the same thing. You're making a completely unsubstantiated claim. You need to substantiate it for your claim to have credibility.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    18. Re:Repulsive by JMJimmy · · Score: 1

      Logical thought and reason are all I need. I'm sure some psychologist has done a similar study I just can't be arsed to find it for a jackass like yourself.

    19. Re:Repulsive by Falos · · Score: 1

      So go to your local uni. Humans researching humans all over the place. Is it something burdensome but not harmful? You'll still have undergrads doing it to each other. Is it painful and mildly harmful? STILL have them. It turns out when your "victim" can speak, they're usually going to say "it's a brief electric shock, I'm not such a pussy that I'll let THAT stop your progress".

      Then you step up to an actual, tiny chance of injury and people are still lining up, starting with "these Scientists". People will KEEP lining up, to the point we have to put laws in place saying we can't do it anyway, even with volunteers, the exception being directly to ourselves (cue "these Scientists" doing some crazy shit to themselves).

      Physical stresses ain't shit anyway, unless it's a process being applied over years. A punch to the face is painful (U R TORTURING PPL) but predictable and easily analyzed in comparison to drinking Chemical X for weeks in a medicinal study. And that's after we're pretty sure X is harmless because it worked fine on rats. Take the rats away and I'll nope to the moon. Everyone will. Anyone know if this cure for Polio2.0 is safe?

    20. Re:Repulsive by allo · · Score: 1

      Don't you think, the scientists know very well, what they need to test for depression/frustration, etc.? Neuroscience is their job, not yours. They will know their basics.

  2. Mice! by roc97007 · · Score: 2

    Mice with friggin lasers on... their... heads...

    Oh, never mind.

    (I wanted sharks....)

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:Mice! by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      And girls on their minds.

  3. Tail by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    These mice wanted to get some tail, so they struggled more to free their tail.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  4. This sounds like a bad plot by pushing-robot · · Score: 1

    This tail-suspension test was developed to screen potential antidepressant drugs: If a rodent struggles longer before giving up, it's considered less depressed.

    Yes. This will definitely end in zombies.

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
  5. less depressed or more insane? by slew · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The tail suspension test (TST) was developed as a rodent screening test for potential (human) antidepressant drugs. It is based on the assumption that an animal will actively try to escape an aversive (stressful) stimulus. If escape is impossible, the animal will eventually stop trying ("give up"). In the TST a mouse is suspended by the tail so that its body dangles in the air, facing downward. The test lasts for six or more minutes and may be repeated multiple times. Mice initially struggle to face upward and climb to a solid surface. When the animal stops struggling and hangs immobile it is considered to have “given up”. Longer periods of immobility are characteristic of a depressive-like state. The validity of this test stems from the finding that treatment with an antidepressant drug will decrease the time the animal spends immobile.

    I imagine if the drug made the mouse more insane (i.e., struggling more against the impossible). Conversely, I imagine if the drug made the mouse smart enough to know it was impossible, it would appear depressed.

    Reminds me of a scene in the Bruce Lee film Enter The Dragon where he realizes he finds himself in a trap and just sits down and waits to make his move.

    1. Re:less depressed or more insane? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

      Maybe the mice who stop struggling have simply reached a Zen-like inner peace.

      --
      systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    2. Re:less depressed or more insane? by hey! · · Score: 1

      Maybe struggling to obtain happiness is inconsistent with inner peace.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  6. coming soon to a cubicle near you by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 1

    Lasers to help you struggle on at work. There should be a Dilbert about this.

  7. Human trials go awry! by Chas · · Score: 1

    Interviewer: Did it work?
    Researcher: Yes. But we had to discontinue it.
    Interviewer: Why?
    Researcher: Because what we thought was memory stimulation was actually a memory encoding and replay system.
    Interviewer: And that makes a difference...why?
    Researcher: Because our test subjects were highly disturbed by "memories" of getting their freak on with female mice...
    Interviewer: ...eww...
    Researcher: Indeed...

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  8. Weaponize by handy_vandal · · Score: 1

    Weaponize it: soldiers who serve for home and memory.

    --
    -kgj
  9. "(being hung by their tails)" by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    God damn. We better hope mice never develop the ability to use tools or we're all going to have our throats cut in our sleep.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re: "(being hung by their tails)" by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      IKR? Looks like you can do any fucked up test you want on mice. We wouldn't allow this with cats or monkeys or the precious homo sapiens.

      --
      == Jez ==
      Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
  10. Triggering by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 1

    Somebody should try this on Melody Hensley.

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
  11. Eerily familiar by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    "If a rodent struggles longer before giving up, it's considered less depressed."

    Pretty sure that was my last boss's management style as well.

    "Jim, how's your team doing?"
    "Great!"

    --
    -Styopa
  12. Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering? by gijoel · · Score: 1

    I think so, Brain. But where are we going to get prosethetic tails at this time of the night?

  13. Braincandy! by MenThal · · Score: 1

    No tea for me, thanks.