Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Mauna Kea Telescope Construction Slated To Resume

Posted by timothy on from the you've-got-to-see-the-bigger-picture dept.

After an earlier halt to the work of constructing the "world's most advanced and powerful telescope" (and subsequent loss of support from an organization acting on behalf of native Hawaiians,) the Thirty Meter Telescope is again in "on again" mode. From the Associated Press article as carried by U.S. News & World Report: The Mauna Kea site provides a clear view of the sky for 300 days a year, with little air and light pollution. The telescope project was developed as a collaboration between U.S. and Canada universities and the national institutes of Japan, China and India. Gov. David Ige in April said the Thirty Meter Telescope board is legally entitled to "use its discretion to proceed with construction." He said he respected the rights of protesters to appeal in court.

65 comments

  1. Nothing that money can't buy by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Those main reason 'natives' objected to the construction of the telescope not because of the sacredness of the mount Kea but the lack of a certain incentive --- namely, $$$

    Money can move mountains if needed be ... and in this case, as long as someone can pay those 'concerned natives' there will no longer be any objection, nor any protests over 'trampling of sacred ground'

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Maleko · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are so full of shit. This has nothing to do with money, but rather self rule. It's about Hawaiians being held at gunpoint to sign over sovereignty. It's about the dozen plus other observatories already there (built under protest also). It's about Kaho'olawe being blown to bits for decades. It's about a lot of things, but money isn't one.

    2. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1, Troll

      It's not politically correct but I agree. There's nothing interesting in Hawaii's native culture that deserves protection. A culture with no art or written language deserves to be forgotten. There's just nothing there. Totem poles? Ok that's a "Brady Bunch" episode I guess but pure speculative superstition with no objective merit. 20th century cave paintings if you ask me.

    3. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a troll!

    4. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if it is all about the $$$ which it probably isn't, the natives property rights should be respected. Why should it be any different for them not to seek the highest possible $$$ for their land?

    5. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Tailhook · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's a shakedown. Pressure groups playing on grievances for a payout. Building scientific instruments on volcanic rubble isn't a desecration of anyone and it's nice to see the board not knuckling under to this fake outrage.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    6. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

      Ancient Greeks had great art and literature. Great culture. Hardly the same situation as Hawaii.

    7. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Cyberax · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Which 'Hawaiians'? This group most certainly does not represent the majority of Hawaiians, nobody has elected them. They don't even represent the majority of natives, since they are not organized in a simple hierarchical way (unlike continental Native American tribes). I predict that the case will be dismissed for the lack of standing, eventually.

      So yeah, these 'prote$ter$' can go and fuck themselves with a genetically modified papaya.

    8. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now I love science as much as the next guy, but they certainly were elected by the residents of Hawaii: http://www.oha.org/trustees

    9. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hawaii has gotten quite a bit out of the bargain. Statehood? Take a look at Laos or Cambodia or the Philippines and then tell me that Hawaii has now profited immeasurably. Even Puerto Rico wishes to be in Hawaii's shoes right now and they'd give up their most "sacred" landmarks in a heartbeat to do it.

    10. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having known one of the protesters at Vieques, I can tell you that not everyone on PR thinks the way you do.

    11. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what? The States does what the State wants. If the will of "elected representatives" coincides with the will of the State it's alright, otherwise it can be ignored. What are they gonna do against the overwhelming might of the State, hunh? :)

    12. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You are so full of shit

      Of course that guy is full of shit

      Even if I am not born on the island of Honolulu, I call myself a 'native'

      When I proclaim something to be sacred you guys better respect what I say, or else I will start donning some fancy cloth, dance some funny numbers, yell some mumbo-jumbo, and then tell you guys all of you have been cursed

      Yes, ***CURSED***

      You want that, hmm??

    13. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      Are they being treated differently? Property rights of most other people are protected, but only up to a point, and land can be appropriated for public use (is that what you call "eminent domain"?). And how impressed should we be by claims of sacred land being violated, on a scale of 1 being the field behind some random NIMBY's house, and 10 being the Kaäba or the Temple Mount?

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    14. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that guy that won the powerball lottery and doesn't have to pay federal income tax is probably one of them. Plus Puerto Rico still has it better than American Samoa... At least people born in PR are US citizens.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    15. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 3, Informative

      Regardless, PR has much to gain from statehood and little to lose. Hawaii would be a 3rd word country with no health care (basically the Philippines) without statehood. PR's territory status gives it some protection, but just imagine getting treated like Cuba in the '50's. There's not much for PR to complain about.

    16. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      They don't even represent the majority of natives, since they are not organized in a simple hierarchical way (unlike continental Native American tribes).

      BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

      In just one of the local Pomo rancherias, there are three families continually vying for control of the band — see, the local "tribe" was actually made up of multiple "bands" (these are white people words, of course) which inhabit various reasons around the lake. One of the bands recently attained power and proceeded to remove a bunch of people from the rolls of who is a member of the tribe, basically declaring they're not Pomos any more. Now they're just people with no people. Naturally, they did it because the band only gets so much money from the feds, and a portion of that money is split however many ways.

      If you think that native americans have/had simple hierarchies, you are way beyond deluded. Almost as deluded as the dumbfuck who decided we should have to wait five minutes between comments again, because they think it will improve comment quality. But it won't; the comments we care most about are those in which we're most emotionally invested, so the comment quality will always decrease when you do this. What a bunch of fucking idiots.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    17. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      Which 'Hawaiians'? This group most certainly does not represent the majority of Hawaiians, nobody has elected them. They don't even represent the majority of natives, since they are not organized in a simple hierarchical way (unlike continental Native American tribes). I predict that the case will be dismissed for the lack of standing, eventually. So yeah, these 'prote$ter$' can go and fuck themselves with a genetically modified papaya.

      I don't think that lack of hierarchical organisations should prevent native people from having a say in the way their land is used. Obviously consensus is important, but if they can agree through polling, meetings or some other means then that should be enough.

    18. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      Why do you think over a dozen observatories have been built there? Think it's cheap to sent giant pieces of delicate scientific equipment from the mainland? TFA doesn't even mention the actual reason why Mauna Kea is one of the best places on the planet for optical telescopes: seeing conditions (aka, how much celestial objects "twinkle" on average. Outside of deep Antarctica (Dome A, not far east of the South Pole), there's no other better known location on the planet (a couple are pretty close, like La Palma and La Silla, but none exceed it). Good seeing requires high altitude with the area around being as perfectly flat and uniform as possible for hundreds of kilometers.

      For optical telescopes, seeing is the most critical factor for resolving fine details. And this telescope is all about resolving fine details. Adaptive optics help counter seeing problems, but the better your seeing baseline, the better the final result.

      --
      What about the Ant People? They owe us money.
    19. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This has nothing to do with money

      Which is why people took issue with the other telescopes not paying rent yeah? Don't pay rent and you're freeloading; pay rent and you're offering 'bribe' money. Funny how spin can set things up for a no win situation.

      but rather self rule.

      Yes, this is true, people should realize that race based Hawaiian nationalism has been a factor in this whole thing. Not like that makes things any better though. If you want to put forward the idea of seceding into an independent nation, then you must derive sovereignty from the will of the people, not genetic happenstance. Holding science which benefits the whole of humanity hostage to promote a power grab makes things no better than 'saving Wakea' or whatever religious justification you care to use, in fact, I'd have much more respect for the appeal to religion. There's a long list of regressive assholes out there who think race should be an important factor in nationalism; do I really need to explain why they're wrong?

      It's about Hawaiians being held at gunpoint to sign over sovereignty.

      Who's being held at gunpoint? Haven't seen that on the news. Unless you're implying something absurd like society should be tied to century old wrongs, in which case, once I'll gotten my 23 and Me ancestry results I'll have a nice long list of people I've never met to demand compensation from. Everyone from a century ago is dead, villains and victims alike. Helping those in need is one thing; demanding special treatment and unique consideration as birthright is something totally different. So, who is being forced to do things against their will now, today?

      It's about Kaho'olawe being blown to bits for decades.

      Astronomers were doing that? Fascinating, do tell. That's a inane thing to say and you know it. Yeah, bad stuff happened in the past, no one is denying that, but two wrongs don't make a right. If you want to promote a thing, do it, be honest, say exactly what you mean, and let it succeed or fail based on its own merit. Attacking something else, making them out to be a villain they're not, in an effort to rally people around you with some us vs them nonsense...well, that's some bullshit politics and everyone knows it.

      And the thing that really gets me about all this, is the protestors picked a just target. They decided to attack something they can't legally beat, so when they lose, they can cry oppression or some such nonsense.

    20. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      There's plenty in Hawaiian culture worthy of recognition. To say there is no Hawaiian art is just ignorant and wrong, and it is certainty very much alive. Do not mistake the protestors for all of Hawaiian culture, in which there is nothing which that would suggest there is anything wrong with telescopes on Maunakea.

    21. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... how come so few telescopes on Mauna Loa?

    22. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Informative

      that's so nice and condescending of you to assume the motivations of others in a self-serving way

      truly you are an enlightened, peerceptive, patronizing asshole

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    23. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Really, you think health care is the reason why people should want to be in an American state? That's rich.

      The PR economy would collapse without the US, true, but to become a state it would then end up with tax issues... basically the current situation is held together by economic motivations.

      Anyway, at what point do you think Congress will get around to that, eh?

    24. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by voss · · Score: 5, Informative

      The natives of hawaii were never given a choice. Hawaii was annexed by force. Puerto Rico was also annexed but has been offered independence and turned it down. By the time the statehood vote was taken, mass numbers of non-hawaiians had moved to the state and become residents and the only vote offered was either statehood or territory.

    25. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Mauna Loa is still an active volcanic site that experiences earthquake activity. The last eruption was less than 30 years ago. Mauna Kea hasn't erupted in at about 5,000 years and is fairly quiet.

    26. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You're right about the native part of the controversy, but the natives didn't get involved until the Greens decided to use them as pawns in the latest phase of their plan to destroy human civilization and bust us back to the Stone Age. In the past they have done this by preventing science from being applied, but most recently they have begun moving in on science itself. Stopping the TMT would be a crown jewel in this offensive. A nuclear plant not built in the US is a nuclear plant that can just as easily be built in China, but there is no Northern Hemisphere location for astronomy that can match Mauna Kea. La Silla covers the southern half of the sky and Mauna Kea gives us the northern half. Furthermore, the two locations are close enough to the equator to give us a large overlap zone in which long-baseline interferometry can be accomplished using both instruments.

      How do I know all this? Because in the Nineties, the Greens held a dress rehearsal of their strategy here in Arizona: http://www.mountgraham.org/con...
      Their attack was exactly the same: whip up bogus native claims, sprinkled with the usual dusting of nonexistent "environmental impacts." In actual fact, large telescopes create an environmental umbrella hundreds of miles wide, within which which any pollution would ruin the seeing. Fortunately the native claims argument did not carry as much weight in Arizona as it does in Hawaii, and humanity won. After years of the usual legal mummery, the telescopes got built.

      But did you know that one of the arguments Greens used at the time was: "Send the scopes to Mauna Kea. There's no opposition there."?

    27. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In 1960 the University of Hawaii entered into an agreement with Hawaiians that it maintain an 11,300 - acre natural preserve at the top of Mauna Kea, which over the years had been used for such activities as Enduro mud racing. Within this area, it could pursue astronomy with a 525-acre "astronomy precinct" within the reserve. What's going on now is an attempt to renege on this deal.

      For the good of science, let's hope that Gov. Ige evolves a spine when the protests resume.

    28. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Because it's the most active volcano in the world.

    29. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Race-based nationalism doesn't magically become Good if it's not white people who are indulging in it.

    30. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Triklyn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      you know how nicely strategically positioned hawaii is in the pacific?

      hawaii was never going to be independent.

      Just a question of whose thumb.

    31. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are so full of shit. This has nothing to do with money, but rather self rule.

      The feds have attack helicopters and tanks. You have surfboards and a rusty old Toyota.

      Let us know how your attempt at defying them works out for you, bruddah.

    32. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      In decision theory, a partitioning algorithm that guesses 100% of a population is in one group, and is right 98% of the time, is in one sense a very good algorithm. It's useless for sorting, but it is very accurate.

      I am fine with assuming the vast majority of people, and their lawyers, in this type of situation are useless leeches looking to get pay-ay-aid to go away.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    33. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

      "In decision theory..."

      I stopped reading there.

      The people protesting actually believe the reasons they put forth. If you are a cynical piece of shit and want to view otherwise, that's fine. You've simply announced your irrelevancy to any ability to actually understand the world you live in.

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    34. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The natives of hawaii were never given a choice. Hawaii was annexed by force.

      Yes, just like every other country on the planet, ever.

    35. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by magarity · · Score: 2, Informative

      Outside of deep Antarctica (Dome A, not far east of the South Pole),

      What are you smoking? It isn't possible to be *east* of the South Pole. Only north of it.

    36. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by antiperimetaparalogo · · Score: 1

      I am afraid that you may be right - i really try to be informed about foreign to me cultures (some of them i respect/like very much)... but i don't know anything about the Hawaiian "culture" (other than the usual "native touristic sub-culture")!

      --
      Antisthenes: "Wisdom begins by examining the words/names." - excuse my English, i am (slightly...) better with my Greek!
    37. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by NixieBunny · · Score: 1

      I work on one of the telescopes that is on Mt. Graham. My father was an astronomer who did the initial site surveys for the Mt. Graham observatory and spent a good bit of time on Mauna Kea as well. He took his family to several observatories in Arizona and Mexico; I never thought of observatories as "desecrating the land". Rather, they are quiet places in which solemn work gets done to better understand our place in the universe.

      My current boss's husband is the guy who made the special legislation happen that allowed the scopes to be built. He's proud of his underhanded accomplishment. I'm also friends with several Earth First!ers who were on the other side of this fight.

      I think both sides on this war are assholes.

      --
      The determined Real Programmer can write Fortran programs in any language.
    38. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Still, from the outside it's pretty simple - there's a governing body that has power to make decisions within its sovereign rights. The way this body is formed is of no interest to the public outside of it.

      It's not the case with this group.

    39. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Still, from the outside it's pretty simple

      Aren't you just underscoring my point for me? Thanks, I guess. It seems simple from the outside until you try to unravel why these three families have been fighting one another, and by the way, I never would because I'm not involved and it's not my business. But it also spills over into how business is done...

      The way this body is formed is of no interest to the public outside of it.

      Obviously, they could give a fuck. That was my point. From the outside, it looks simple, and who cares, anyway? But how this body is formed should be of some importance to people who want to make declarative statements about what the natives want.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    40. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Put me down as being proud of his "underhanded accomplishment" too. May the Earth First!ers, in particular, die in a fire.

      When I visited the U of A Steward mirror lab on the Tucson campus, we were told that as each of the big mirror segments cast and ground there was completed, it had to be moved out at a secret randomized time of the night, in case terrorists tried to attack.

    41. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Rei · · Score: 1

      The longitude center of the eastern hemisphere is 90 degrees east longitude. Dome A is about 80 degrees east longitude.

      --
      What about the Ant People? They owe us money.
    42. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The natives of hawaii were never given a choice. Hawaii was annexed by force. Puerto Rico was also annexed but has been offered independence and turned it down. By the time the statehood vote was taken, mass numbers of non-hawaiians had moved to the state and become residents and the only vote offered was either statehood or territory.

      Hawaii was not annexed by force, not really. The political history in Hawaii Nei is quite complicated. It used to be that each ahupuaa had its own alii which reported to an alii nui at the island level. If I remember my state history correctly, the Big Island even had multiple alii nui. It wasn't until Kamehameha I was given modern weaponry by the English that he was able to "unite" all the islands under his rule (guns are so much more powerful than clubs studded with shark teeth). Research the history of the Pali Lookout in Nuuanu Valley.

      Because of its position in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, sailors and traders started frequenting the Islands. These foreigners held strong sway over the monarchs. The traders got tired of the huge tariffs that the Kings demanded, so they forced the Great Mahele. The natives didn't understand private land ownership, so only the foreigners ended up with land. Things escalated up through the 1890s when the (mostly White) plantation owners (including Dole) got tired of paying an import tax to sell their agricultural products in the US. They were instrumental in stripping much of the King's power.

      In 1893, a battleship arrived at Pearl Harbor. Whites say it was to protect the US sailors who were being roughed up by natives; natives say it was to force Queen Liliuokalani from the throne. In either case, the Queen feared for her life and the effects of war, so she abdicated her throne. Dole and others petitioned the US Congress to admit Hawaii as a state, but were denied. They then created the Republic of Hawaii and petitioned statehood every few years. Eventually Hawaii was admitted as a territory, then in 1959 the population of Hawaii voted to accept statehood.

    43. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by NoKaOi · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right. I live on Maui, and see who it is that is protesting the loudest. There are a few people who genuinely believe it is a desecration, but that is a small minority of the protesters. Not that I mean to disrespect that minority, their viewpoint is legitimate in that it is what they truly believe, but I do mean to bash the rest, as those are illogical, irrational reality-deniers (anti-science == reality-denialism). It is the same people who think anything sciency or not "natural" is the epitome of evil. It is the same people sign waiving to ban GMOs. The same people who share miracle cures of juices, essential oils, and homeopathic remedies on Facebook.

      There has been a big stink over GMOs here lately, and TMT protest is merely an extension of that. If not for the GMO nonsense, these people would not be protesting TMT, it wouldn't even be a blip on their radar. Fundamentally, they both represent greed, development, advancement, and are anti-natural and anti-Organic (yes I realize the ridiculousness of those terms, please don't try to debate me, I'm telling where these people are coming from) to them. These are the people who, when presented with numerous citations on why GMOs are safe, either insist that it was all done by paid shills, or that even if GMOs are safe then they should be banned because MONSANTO is a huge corporation so it's evil. And they'll spout their anti-GMO rhetoric from an Apple (14x the size of Monsanto) computer or one running Microsoft Windows (7x the size of Monsanto), then jump in their Toyota (4x the size of Monsanto) to go to Starbucks (1.5x the size of Monsanto) so they can Facebook (4x the size of Monsanto) from their Google (7x the size of Monsanto) Android phone over the Verizon (3.5x the size of Monsanto) network. But stay away from GMOs because Monsanto is a HUGE corporation! GMOs and TMT are the same thing to these people.

      Again, I'll point out I'm not referring to everybody, I'm referring to the greenies that constitute a vast majority of the protesters.

    44. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is not East of the south pole, but North of it. Going East from the South pole means spinning around in a clockwise circle indefinitely.

    45. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Cerberus7 · · Score: 1

      Kilauea is the volcano that has been erupting since the 1983. Mauna Loa last erupted in 1984 and is considered active. Mauna Kea is dormant.

      --
      I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
    46. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 1

      You're not the only one to notice that; I've seen that too. I've seen some protests here on O'ahu but never been to any, and I certainty don't care to, but I've noticed that there is a large overlap between the two groups. For example, one of the well known activists who wants all the telescopes gone is the same one who played a big role in the banning of genetically engineered taro research and presently supports the anti-GMO groups. IMO, there's a lot of projecting and two minutes of hate tactics to advance the agendas and careers of certain professional activists (and the sovereignty movement) at any cost, at least at the top level anyway, no doubt there must be those who are honest but uninformed, and maybe a small number of people who would still care for their own reasons even if there wasn't a popular bandwagon to jump on. It's kind of ironic considering that UH developed the genetically engineered papaya...the proof that genetic engineering works and evidence that it is not a corporate conspiracy is literally in the local market.

    47. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      The substance of the native rights argument is that Mauna Kea is venerated in Hawaiian culture in the same way that Fujiyama is venerated in Japanese culture. Having been on both mountains (and also Mt Graham) has given me an earth-level view of what actually takes place on them. Mauna Kea has had telescopes since 1968, when I was able to see the very first one going in. What else was up there at the summit? Absolutely nothing, except for the access road and other hikers - and unlike most other mountaintops, it's a vast area with a gentle slope. The most spectacular thing about it was the view, of the Big Island on one side and the Pacific on the other. In pre-colonial times everything above the treeline on it was reserved for the ali'i, the one-percenters of old Hawaii. Only now, in America, does the summit belong to the people, administrated by U of H under that 1960 agreement by which they have to preserve it from desecration.

      Fujiyama is venerated also, and because of this is one of the busiest high mountains in the world. Every Japanese is morally obligated to climb it once in a lifetime, like Muslims going to Makkah. You take trains and a bus to about the midway point, and then climb through a series of five "stations" or resthouses, each one of them a romping hive of commercial activity. Japanese pilgrims buy a LOT of mementos. Every day of the summer climbing season there is a solid line of people coming up the one-way trail from the side facing Tokyo. You camp out at the top, and get up early to watch goraiko, the sunrise that is so special that it has a word of its own. There is a weather station and a radio complex at the top. At the moment of sunrise I could look back on an endless sea of cameras. Yes, people hauled tripods and big lens kits up there for the occasion.

      The same set of people protesting Mauna Kea as protested GMOs and all the other tech that liberals hate, you say? Yes, that's exactly what happened here too. Nobody seemed to mind when the hunting lodge and the campground and the federal prison were built on Mt Graham, but the wackosphere erupted at the first sign of astronomical activity. Why, exactly, did they hate pure science more than they did a federal prison? I suppose for the same reason that your protesters hate pure science more than the annual dirt races on their mountain.

    48. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Rei · · Score: 1

      I'm trying to give directions that one could use to actually locate something. Saying "it's to the north" is meaningless. It's 80 degrees east.

      --
      What about the Ant People? They owe us money.
  2. With little air and light pollution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh man, little air? Do the guys operating this are under risk of sufocation or something?

    As if it wasnt bad enough there is this light pollution. Makes you wonder why they chose the location.

    1. Re:With little air and light pollution by jfdavis668 · · Score: 2

      The point behind the location is to get above as much of the atmospheric water vapor as possible. Less cloud, clear nights, less interference in certain parts of the spectrum.

    2. Re:With little air and light pollution by amalcolm · · Score: 1

      Whoosh!!!

      --
      Time for bed, said Zebedee - boing
    3. Re:With little air and light pollution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's no air here for a woosh.

    4. Re:With little air and light pollution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, talk about not getting the sarcasm/joke.

      "little air and light pollution" in the text obviously means "little air pollution AND little light pollution". The OP was obviously referring to the possible misinterpretation.

      No internet for you today sir.

    5. Re:With little air and light pollution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Little air? On a big island? Who do they think they're kidding?

  3. Clarke by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Anyone else vaguely reminded by this telescope battle of Arthur C. Clarkes' The Fountains of Paradise?

  4. Pele is on MY SIDE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Natives are people. People are assholes. Draw your own conclusions (note: I include myself as well). The telescopes are sacred alters to science build upon sacred ground. Pele agrees with me. Everyone else, fuck off.

  5. Who would have thought! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Religion and superstition trying to block the advance of science. Where have I seen this before?

    1. Re:Who would have thought! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I forgot to add nationalism to the mix.

  6. That vocal minority by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    doesn't speak for all native Hawaiians. Plenty of native Hawaiians support the telescope plans

  7. A bit hypocritical, coming from you... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    > that's so nice and condescending of you to assume the motivations of others in a self-serving way

    You're just fine with that when YOU are the one making assumptions. Would you like a review of your Slashdot posting history, pointing out where you have done this yourself?

  8. One concern: fair and democratic by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

    The way this body is formed is of no interest to the public outside of it.

    Actually this is only true if it is formed through some recognizably fair and democratic process. For example if it is formed based on a hereditary concerns or an unfair and biased electoral process the public outside of the group will probably feel free to ignore it as not representing the people it claims to represent. While this may not apply here the way a governing body is formed does play a role in whether people outside it accord it any legitimacy and respect.