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Mauna Kea Telescope Construction Slated To Resume

Posted by timothy on from the you've-got-to-see-the-bigger-picture dept.

After an earlier halt to the work of constructing the "world's most advanced and powerful telescope" (and subsequent loss of support from an organization acting on behalf of native Hawaiians,) the Thirty Meter Telescope is again in "on again" mode. From the Associated Press article as carried by U.S. News & World Report: The Mauna Kea site provides a clear view of the sky for 300 days a year, with little air and light pollution. The telescope project was developed as a collaboration between U.S. and Canada universities and the national institutes of Japan, China and India. Gov. David Ige in April said the Thirty Meter Telescope board is legally entitled to "use its discretion to proceed with construction." He said he respected the rights of protesters to appeal in court.

19 of 65 comments (clear)

  1. Nothing that money can't buy by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Those main reason 'natives' objected to the construction of the telescope not because of the sacredness of the mount Kea but the lack of a certain incentive --- namely, $$$

    Money can move mountains if needed be ... and in this case, as long as someone can pay those 'concerned natives' there will no longer be any objection, nor any protests over 'trampling of sacred ground'

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Maleko · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are so full of shit. This has nothing to do with money, but rather self rule. It's about Hawaiians being held at gunpoint to sign over sovereignty. It's about the dozen plus other observatories already there (built under protest also). It's about Kaho'olawe being blown to bits for decades. It's about a lot of things, but money isn't one.

    2. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Cyberax · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Which 'Hawaiians'? This group most certainly does not represent the majority of Hawaiians, nobody has elected them. They don't even represent the majority of natives, since they are not organized in a simple hierarchical way (unlike continental Native American tribes). I predict that the case will be dismissed for the lack of standing, eventually.

      So yeah, these 'prote$ter$' can go and fuck themselves with a genetically modified papaya.

    3. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hawaii has gotten quite a bit out of the bargain. Statehood? Take a look at Laos or Cambodia or the Philippines and then tell me that Hawaii has now profited immeasurably. Even Puerto Rico wishes to be in Hawaii's shoes right now and they'd give up their most "sacred" landmarks in a heartbeat to do it.

    4. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 2

      Are they being treated differently? Property rights of most other people are protected, but only up to a point, and land can be appropriated for public use (is that what you call "eminent domain"?). And how impressed should we be by claims of sacred land being violated, on a scale of 1 being the field behind some random NIMBY's house, and 10 being the Kaäba or the Temple Mount?

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    5. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 3, Informative

      Regardless, PR has much to gain from statehood and little to lose. Hawaii would be a 3rd word country with no health care (basically the Philippines) without statehood. PR's territory status gives it some protection, but just imagine getting treated like Cuba in the '50's. There's not much for PR to complain about.

    6. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

      Why do you think over a dozen observatories have been built there? Think it's cheap to sent giant pieces of delicate scientific equipment from the mainland? TFA doesn't even mention the actual reason why Mauna Kea is one of the best places on the planet for optical telescopes: seeing conditions (aka, how much celestial objects "twinkle" on average. Outside of deep Antarctica (Dome A, not far east of the South Pole), there's no other better known location on the planet (a couple are pretty close, like La Palma and La Silla, but none exceed it). Good seeing requires high altitude with the area around being as perfectly flat and uniform as possible for hundreds of kilometers.

      For optical telescopes, seeing is the most critical factor for resolving fine details. And this telescope is all about resolving fine details. Adaptive optics help counter seeing problems, but the better your seeing baseline, the better the final result.

      --
      What about the Ant People? They owe us money.
    7. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This has nothing to do with money

      Which is why people took issue with the other telescopes not paying rent yeah? Don't pay rent and you're freeloading; pay rent and you're offering 'bribe' money. Funny how spin can set things up for a no win situation.

      but rather self rule.

      Yes, this is true, people should realize that race based Hawaiian nationalism has been a factor in this whole thing. Not like that makes things any better though. If you want to put forward the idea of seceding into an independent nation, then you must derive sovereignty from the will of the people, not genetic happenstance. Holding science which benefits the whole of humanity hostage to promote a power grab makes things no better than 'saving Wakea' or whatever religious justification you care to use, in fact, I'd have much more respect for the appeal to religion. There's a long list of regressive assholes out there who think race should be an important factor in nationalism; do I really need to explain why they're wrong?

      It's about Hawaiians being held at gunpoint to sign over sovereignty.

      Who's being held at gunpoint? Haven't seen that on the news. Unless you're implying something absurd like society should be tied to century old wrongs, in which case, once I'll gotten my 23 and Me ancestry results I'll have a nice long list of people I've never met to demand compensation from. Everyone from a century ago is dead, villains and victims alike. Helping those in need is one thing; demanding special treatment and unique consideration as birthright is something totally different. So, who is being forced to do things against their will now, today?

      It's about Kaho'olawe being blown to bits for decades.

      Astronomers were doing that? Fascinating, do tell. That's a inane thing to say and you know it. Yeah, bad stuff happened in the past, no one is denying that, but two wrongs don't make a right. If you want to promote a thing, do it, be honest, say exactly what you mean, and let it succeed or fail based on its own merit. Attacking something else, making them out to be a villain they're not, in an effort to rally people around you with some us vs them nonsense...well, that's some bullshit politics and everyone knows it.

      And the thing that really gets me about all this, is the protestors picked a just target. They decided to attack something they can't legally beat, so when they lose, they can cry oppression or some such nonsense.

    8. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Informative

      that's so nice and condescending of you to assume the motivations of others in a self-serving way

      truly you are an enlightened, peerceptive, patronizing asshole

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    9. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by voss · · Score: 5, Informative

      The natives of hawaii were never given a choice. Hawaii was annexed by force. Puerto Rico was also annexed but has been offered independence and turned it down. By the time the statehood vote was taken, mass numbers of non-hawaiians had moved to the state and become residents and the only vote offered was either statehood or territory.

    10. Re:Nothing that money can't buy by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You're right about the native part of the controversy, but the natives didn't get involved until the Greens decided to use them as pawns in the latest phase of their plan to destroy human civilization and bust us back to the Stone Age. In the past they have done this by preventing science from being applied, but most recently they have begun moving in on science itself. Stopping the TMT would be a crown jewel in this offensive. A nuclear plant not built in the US is a nuclear plant that can just as easily be built in China, but there is no Northern Hemisphere location for astronomy that can match Mauna Kea. La Silla covers the southern half of the sky and Mauna Kea gives us the northern half. Furthermore, the two locations are close enough to the equator to give us a large overlap zone in which long-baseline interferometry can be accomplished using both instruments.

      How do I know all this? Because in the Nineties, the Greens held a dress rehearsal of their strategy here in Arizona: http://www.mountgraham.org/con...
      Their attack was exactly the same: whip up bogus native claims, sprinkled with the usual dusting of nonexistent "environmental impacts." In actual fact, large telescopes create an environmental umbrella hundreds of miles wide, within which which any pollution would ruin the seeing. Fortunately the native claims argument did not carry as much weight in Arizona as it does in Hawaii, and humanity won. After years of the usual legal mummery, the telescopes got built.

      But did you know that one of the arguments Greens used at the time was: "Send the scopes to Mauna Kea. There's no opposition there."?

    11. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In 1960 the University of Hawaii entered into an agreement with Hawaiians that it maintain an 11,300 - acre natural preserve at the top of Mauna Kea, which over the years had been used for such activities as Enduro mud racing. Within this area, it could pursue astronomy with a 525-acre "astronomy precinct" within the reserve. What's going on now is an attempt to renege on this deal.

      For the good of science, let's hope that Gov. Ige evolves a spine when the protests resume.

    12. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Race-based nationalism doesn't magically become Good if it's not white people who are indulging in it.

    13. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Triklyn · · Score: 5, Insightful

      you know how nicely strategically positioned hawaii is in the pacific?

      hawaii was never going to be independent.

      Just a question of whose thumb.

    14. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by circletimessquare · · Score: 2

      "In decision theory..."

      I stopped reading there.

      The people protesting actually believe the reasons they put forth. If you are a cynical piece of shit and want to view otherwise, that's fine. You've simply announced your irrelevancy to any ability to actually understand the world you live in.

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    15. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The natives of hawaii were never given a choice. Hawaii was annexed by force.

      Yes, just like every other country on the planet, ever.

    16. Re: Nothing that money can't buy by magarity · · Score: 2, Informative

      Outside of deep Antarctica (Dome A, not far east of the South Pole),

      What are you smoking? It isn't possible to be *east* of the South Pole. Only north of it.

  2. Re:With little air and light pollution by jfdavis668 · · Score: 2

    The point behind the location is to get above as much of the atmospheric water vapor as possible. Less cloud, clear nights, less interference in certain parts of the spectrum.

  3. Clarke by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Anyone else vaguely reminded by this telescope battle of Arthur C. Clarkes' The Fountains of Paradise?