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Who Owns Your Overtime?
HughPickens.com writes: Fran Sussner Rodgers writes in the NY Times that a little-noticed change in the American workplace is about to occur. Later this month the Department of Labor is expected to announce an adjustment to the Fair Labor Standards Act raising the salary threshold for overtime from $23,660 per year to at least double that threshold. In 1975, the last year the threshold was significantly raised, 60 percent of salaried workers fell within the requirement for overtime pay while today, only 8 percent do. The new requirement should be a welcome change for millions of American workers.
But the change also speaks to an issue that affects everyone, whether eligible for overtime or not — the clash between the finite amount of time employees actually have versus the desire of employers to treat time as an inexhaustible resource. Employees in the United States currently work more hours than workers in any of the world's 10 largest economies except Russia. When everything over 40 hours is free to the employer, the temptation to demand more is almost irresistible. But for most employees, the ones exempt from overtime rules, their managers have little incentive to look for ways to use their time more efficiently. "We are a tired, stressed and overworked nation, which has many negative consequences for our personal health and the care of our children. As a nation, we work harder and longer than almost all of our competitors, and much of that work is uncompensated," writes Rodgers. "Time is our personal currency. We parcel it out, hour by hour, to meet the demands placed on us. We all pay a steep price, as individuals and as a nation, when we can't meet our most important obligations."
But the change also speaks to an issue that affects everyone, whether eligible for overtime or not — the clash between the finite amount of time employees actually have versus the desire of employers to treat time as an inexhaustible resource. Employees in the United States currently work more hours than workers in any of the world's 10 largest economies except Russia. When everything over 40 hours is free to the employer, the temptation to demand more is almost irresistible. But for most employees, the ones exempt from overtime rules, their managers have little incentive to look for ways to use their time more efficiently. "We are a tired, stressed and overworked nation, which has many negative consequences for our personal health and the care of our children. As a nation, we work harder and longer than almost all of our competitors, and much of that work is uncompensated," writes Rodgers. "Time is our personal currency. We parcel it out, hour by hour, to meet the demands placed on us. We all pay a steep price, as individuals and as a nation, when we can't meet our most important obligations."
Russia works longer hours. Of course, that may have started during WW2 and just never entirely gotten back to normal. They amazingly shipped whole factories along the rail system to keep them away from the German advance, and they tied worker output directly to the food supply...
They have incentive to work you longer than the 40 hours a week a salary is calculated based on (FTE): the more hours you work the cheaper your labor rate is.
But if TISA turns out to be an easy in for foreign workers what does this change really mean?
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Not gonna argue tooooo much, but remember that the pool of good jobs is a lot smaller than the pool of people who want them. Slackers and people who don't advance their own skills won't get too far, but if everyone did their damnedest, a lot of people would still get stuck with the jobs nobody wants.
The man.
Save money, as much as you can. Then tell your employers NO. No pager, no cell phone, no email, no overtime, no working late. Leave that as the legacy to your kids. The MBAs want to leave the piles of money they steal for other workers as their legacy to their kids. Don't leave your kids workplaces of fear and intimidation. Show these companies that they don't own you.
In Washington state where I am, the current value is $9.47 (pretty high in the country and our economy is great, thanks). This current cutoff is the salary equivalent of making a little over $11 an hour, IF they only work you 40 hours a week. That's...pretty low. It also means that if they work you something like nine and a half hours a day on average, you're making less than minimum wage by hour. There's a lotta low grade QA jobs in the tech industry with hours like that and pretty low pay...
If I call that a salary then it is a guaranteed weekly wage, but I can work that employee 60 (or 70 or 80) hours a week with no extra pay.
Fock me...There is no chance a system like that would be abused.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Every once in a while some manager will try to discreetly broach the subject of fudging the books so I work longer one week, take some time off the next week and smooth it all out. To which I usually respond, loudly, with a beautifully crafted note of surprise in my voice, "You want me to FALSIFY MY TIMECARD?" They usually quickly deny it and scurry off to harass the salaried employees some more.
I'm quite wary of offers to come onboard as a FTE, as that usually means the company has a lot of overtime in the cards in the next two or three months, and a layoff cycle coming right after that. Fortunately their offers are usually so laughably bad that they're pretty easy to resist.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Your welcome
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
I remember when I lived in the States. It was the life of a slave. Working, working and more working. I was in a bilingual position in a school (it was a job exchange program between my country and USA).
One day, the principal gathered all the teachers and said:
"We have decided to help our students by giving them one hour more of tutoring classes after your (very long) school hours. These additional hours are strictly voluntary and they won't be paid. But please do it for the kids!"
Being a foreigner, I thought that everybody was going to reject such a clear exploitation. But all the teachers reacted with enthusiasm:
"Yes! We'll do it for the kids! For the kids!"
I said no and everybody look at me with hostility. Afterwards, I realized that I had tenure in my home country and was able to say no. All the American teachers could say no but the principal could fire them with no reason at all. Hence, they did anything that the principal said.
I went back to my home country and keep on working in my high school and, afterwards, in the government and the World Bank. I never worked as much as worked in the States (and the salary was not good).
So thats the link to post when there are no existing posts....
Better yet: post a link to a post bitching about the lack of posts!
Then watch as it's corrected by some fucknut who can't even distinguish "your" from "you're" (what the FUCK is so difficult about that, anyway?). Brilliant!
If I parsed the sentence correctly then it should be up to the employee to look for ways to manage his or her time more efficiently. If you have to rely on your manager then you're in wrong job.
As a Brit now living in the US I can clearly see the reason. Even though many companies in the EU won;t stop trying, this endless free overtime malarkey generally does not fly at all because most people there just won't go along with it.
The problem exists in the US because for some reason, the average American employee's mentality is to just accept and give in to whatever employers do to you without any questions or push back at all. If US employees saw their employment contract as what it actually is, a business deal between equals that exchanges time for money at a fixed rate, The problem would end overnight.
People that complain about having to work endless unpaid overtime just need to grow a pair and stand up to being abused. Do exactly what you're paid for, then go home. Seriously.
I will add one thing for the non-US audience. This summary suggests that in America all salaried employees get paid for 40 hours but can be required to work unlimited hours. This is NOT universal. There are many professional jobs that pay the full hourly rate to employees for required time beyond 40 hours, including travel time. My company has thousands of employees and pays fairly. My coworkers from other large engineer firms generally have similar experiences, though some have told me that the first 4 hours of OT always was free, with compensation beyond that.
If I was switching jobs I'm not sure I'd take one where workers regularly are expected to work (significantly) beyond 40 hours. Don't just accept it because you think that's the way it has to be in America.
-Ted http://www.freemathhelp.com/
Contrary to popular belief: The number of hours worked do not correspond to the amount of work done
Take programmers, for example - The output of top notch programmers are often many times than those of the coding monkeys
I have had the privileges to work with legendary programmers, I saw with my own eyes the things that they have produced and none of the ordinary coding monkeys can even come close
We allowed ourselves to be convinced we are overpaid. We are extremely prosperous and have a large population. There is no reason not to go to the 6 hour day/30 hour week and employ more people. Overtime is supposed to be for unforeseen circumstances.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
I get paid a salary with the understanding that I am being employed to work well over 40 hours a week on most weeks. The expectations were set with a fair bit of clarity when I was hired (two times, both Fortune 500 companies). And, as my salary has risen so have the expectations of my productivity, which seems pretty natural to me. I am grateful that no government agency has yet stepped in to tell me that I cannot work as hard as I choose to, because if they did my employer would be forced to lower my salary to compensate for the lower contribution. And I'm grateful that no government agency has stepped in to say I must be paid overtime, because then not only would my base wage be reduced to match my actual hourly contribution, but my employer would likely prohibit or restrict my ability to work extra hours, which today I use sometimes to prove my value, and sometimes to give myself some flexibility to work slower or faster. No one should have the authority to step in and dictate to me what my agreement is with my employer can or cannot be. Depriving someone of their basic right to work and reap the fruits of their labor is a fundamental human rights violation.
is that fugly new front page here to stay or what?
If productive overtime, especially that built business, meant whoever involved got performance incentives. In contracting/consulting circles, it's common to draft the grunts who don't get those incentives to help write contracts. I guarantee you that if you took 50% of management's bonus pool and shifted it to a general pool for encouraging workers to pitch in on new initiatives and stuff like that, you'd have people fighting to pitch in.
Which is mainly management. Hourly is for the low productivity jobs. So what to do? Ditch the hourly and salary wages and pay flat rate, that way you get paid for productivity. If you're a lazy ass you get shit for wages, if you produce quality work you make tons. Note I said quality, if your work is shabby you don't get paid. I worked 8-9 hours a day 5-6 days a week and got paid the equivalent of 200 hours per week. If you're good you succeed, if not then McDonalds is always looking for people.
If you're writing code in any way, shape, or form, you're any good, you're not an intern, and you get treated even remotely like this, *look for a new job.* I can't stress this enough. My last job was like that. They wanted my nights, weekends, and vacations to fix their prod emergencies caused by the tech debt resulting from their nepotism and desire to save $200k a year (on almost 100m revenue) by not hiring backup for me. Of course, being young and unmarried, I told them to fuck themselves, and when their antics got disturbing enough, I jumped ship, and that was the best thing I ever did for myself. At my new job, I make more, I have work life balance (my manager and peers yell at me if I put in time on a weekend for a non prod emergency, which almost never happens), and my life is just so different.
If you can make pixels do what others want on demand, you should press for the best you can get and land a comfortable position while the market is good.
My brother in law was a salaried accountant. Weekend work was automatic; weekend pay, not so much. When I was finishing university, a roommate (also CS major) had finished three semesters before I did, and had picked up work with a local company. He was on salary. He had a normal work week of 42.5 hours per week, subject to requirements of the company. He had been working those hours for about 15 weeks and suddenly a push was on to get a project completed. So instead of coming home at 5, he started coming home at 6, 2 times per week. A few weeks later, that became 3 times per week, then it became 7 pm four times per week. Then it became 7 pm every weekday (including Friday). Then it became 7:30 every weekday, then that became 7:30 every weekday plus 'just a few hours on Saturday'. Then that became 7:30 every night plus till 5:pm Saturday. Then that became 8:-7:30 M-S plus a few hours on Sunday. And a week later that became 8-7:30 every day of the week. We saw less of him and when we did, he was either tired or grumpy. His boss was complaining about how much was being done compared to a normal 40 hour week (apparently work/time didn't scale linearly as time increased). My roommates hourly rate was cut in half (I think at that point it was below minimum wage), and I suspect labor laws were broken, but salary is salary. 1975 since the last time it was raised? That tells me two things: Democrats were in power in '75, and a lot of Republicans were in power between them and now.
What? People are working for free in the USA? What kind of slavery is that? You give cheap loans, free money and "corporate welfare", while the average joe need to keep to jobs and then work for free to keep those jobs to survive and at the same time not even getting health care? Land of the Stupid, Land of the Slaves.
Oh, it's compensated all right, it's just not the poor bastard doing the overtime that's getting the dough, it's the directors and the shareholders.
If you work for free, that's called slavery and you're a mug. And American holidays are a joke. And the American health care system is a joke and the internet competition is a joke. Brainwashed.
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In 1996, ...Congress amended the FLSA to include a specific exemption, at Section 13(a)(17), for “Computer Professionals.”
1. The application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software or system functional specifications;
2. The design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications; [or]
3. The design, documentation, testing, creation or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems;
http://www.generalcounsellaw.c...
FLSA: FUBAR.
meep
You are usually paid 50-100% extra for every extra hour worked which makes sense to me. It is costly to hire and train someone new so if you need someone for more hours than expected the employer will need to make an investment. This makes both parties happy. Some may also trade overtime for holiday time or leaving early on another day.
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You must do extremely productive then.
Unless the truth is you're not working harder, just longer to make up for being a slacker.
You're a slacker McFly.
In the real world people work as much as necessary or as much as they want. I'm sure Bill Gates and Warren Buffer work far more than 40 hours/week. It's obvious that, to them, it's worth it. Now, you have to expand you horizons and see that probably a lot of people have decided that their salary is worth the time required even if they aren't billionaires and millionaires. Would they like to work less, hell yeah, but we can't all live in Greece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RScjEsqvkFo
So I wonder what percentage of middle management this will push into hourly employees?
As it is, I've notice a seemingly endless half-days for them as they bitterly complain about those below them demanding comp. time as a minimum.
Now they are in the same boat. I see a lot of bloat being cut from their ranks.
Who am I kidding? They will just give raises to just clear the threshold of of being salaried while demanding even more time since everyone just got a raise.
anyone against unpaid overtime must be some sort of communist. are all republicans secretly communists?
In 1996, ...Congress amended the FLSA to include a specific exemption, at Section 13(a)(17), for “Computer Professionals.”
1. The application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software or system functional specifications; 2. The design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications; [or] 3. The design, documentation, testing, creation or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems;
http://www.generalcounsellaw.c...
FLSA: FUBAR.
You might note that the Labor Act does not say that the company CANNOT pay you overtime. Just that they aren't FORCED to. A decent company that cares about it's employees and it's own long term viability would pay overtime to it's employees anyway.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
remember that the pool of good jobs is a lot smaller than the pool of people who want them.
The pool of good jobs is smaller than the pool of people that want them, but bigger than the pool of people that are qualified for them. I live in San Jose, California, and nearly every company here has vacancies they can't fill. Also, neither the pool of jobs, nor the pool of workers, is fixed. Companies will expand if they think skilled workers will be available. Likewise, people will enter the labor market, and improve their skills, if they see jobs being offered. Economics is not zero sum.
They should go ahead and make the companies have to pay FICA, unemployment, insurance, short and long term disability, calculate longevity with the company, time toward retirement, 401k contributions, company sponsored insurance and whatever else we can think of on all of those free hours. Doesn't the government realize they are missing out on a great amount of taxation because we are giving all of this to the employers for free?
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
I am a software engineer, so I'm a professional, and I've never been paid overtime.
It was entertaining to see the #1 country in the article working no more hours per year than I do.
By the way: those 50 hours a week are NOT during crunch time. Crunch time is significantly more hours.
... then the question becomes who p0wns your overtime?
I have NEVER worked for a company that does this willingly if you are a salaried "computer professional"
As a matter of fact, many companies wrongfully classify people as exempt when they don't actually classify as such.
I own a software company and my developers work 37 hour weeks (8 hrs. Mon-Thur and 5 hrs. on Fri). We don't allow work from home. We don't even allow them to check their email when they're off work. Work is work. Home is home. Our employees love the lighter schedule and I don't think we lose much (if any) productivity. Our competitors may even pay more, but I don't fear losing any of my employees.
Maybe those companies should try on-the-job training like every other industry....
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Check with your local, state and federal labor boards, if a company is "planning" their projects by including mandatory overtime, then they are breaking the law.
Professional / Computer "exemptions" with regards to overtime are there to cover things like server outage, network malfunction, software bug that prevents the worker-bees from doing their jobs.
If they build work schedules and plans by factoring in over 40 hours a week for any individual, then you are entitled to take the same amount of time off in another week without having to spend vacation, sick or personal days. If your employer tries to tell you otherwise, they are lying and breaking the law.
As with most computer related professionals, when something goes to shit, it's all necessary hands on deck until the problem is solved. After that though, if I am asked to work > 40 hrs to meet a poorly planned project deadline, then the first thing I ask is when do I get to take that time off after the deadline is met.
With most states, if they force you to work beyond 40 hours per week, they have to offer comp time, paid time off or other compensation.
Maybe those companies should try on-the-job training like every other industry....
1. Technology changes fast, and people incapable of learning on their own, are unlikely to be worthwhile employees.
2. In Silicon Valley, you competitor is often across the street. If you spend $100k to train someone on, say, vision processing on FPGAs, then they can take all that knowledge right out the door.
It is your individual responsibility to make yourself employable. Your employer is not your mommy.
The real problem is that the pool of people willing to work horrible hours for shit pay is too damned big.
People need to learn some self-value.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Maybe on the job training is no substitute for not having invested years in learning the maths and skills required to do the job.
In an industry where the average employment length is 2-3 years, and the amount of time it takes to train someone to do a job well is 2-3 years, on the job training isn't going to pay off for anyone.
Minimum wage should be $40/hr while most white collar jobs should be $400/hr and up.
The Fed keeps printing money like nobody's business, companies are making ungodly amounts of money, and people are still paid like it's the late 90s.
>"We are a tired, stressed and overworked nation
Part of the reason is the low number of people actually working full time... and they have to pay the taxes to cover all those who don't, and those who don't earn enough to cover their cost to society, and the rich who seem to have the means to protect their income.
Oh yeah, let's just throw some more on the national debt to cover it, raise the minimum wage, and start up some more socialized programs and entitlements, that will fix it....
Are you claiming that Americans are stupid because we're tricked into working long hours? or are you claiming that it's a myth that Americans work so much because Mexico & Greece work longer hours? (presumably this is why those countries have such impressive economies).
I don't see how you can have it both ways. We're either dumb and exploited for working too much or we're lazier than a couple of countries that need bailouts every other year. Pick one.
to most Europeans why someone might enjoy work.
When you say "straight hourly wages", I assume you pay OT for hours over 40 in a week (and over 8 in a day in California, etc.).
most large companies DO treat "fresh-out" engineers as non-exempt, and pay OT, etc. Just be willing to pay meal penalties if they work more than 5 hours before taking their meal break. Train your supervisors to keep an eye on them and remind them gently, and just pay up willingly unless someone starts to deliberately abuse it.
I think *all* employees should be paid OT: It provides an incentive for employers to hire more people rather than pay the OT premium. It also means that you're keeping accurate "time spent" records, so your future estimates of labor required will be more accurate (part of that whole CMMI thing, after all)
It's true that professionals manage their own time, etc. That's fine, let them, just pay them for the hours they spend. Separate "how many hours do you need to be at work to do the job you need to do" and the "how do we pay you" issues.
There *is* a stigma about being non-exempt, no matter what people will say.
I have met *a lot* of workaholics--it is a really common personality type in the US for a variety of cultural reasons.
Some people just like to work a lot. People are different.
I'm glad that option is available to people who want to work that way, but it sounds way too rigid for me. I like being able to work on my schedule. What if I get on a roll and want to work later one night and then roll in late the next morning? I don't want the work/life balance Gestapo to padlock my keyboard at 5:00pm and then cattle prod me into the office at 9:00am the next morning. Seriously, it sounds horrible.
it's all well and good to say don't buy a cell phone but a) it puts you at a social disadvantage and b) it only really saves about $1200 year for a family of 3, but rent on a crummy 3 bedroom apartment is damn near that. So after 10 years I can't even pay a years worth of rent...
Millennials have already cut the cord. They have Internet, but they needed that to get their jobs. In America where these abuses happen most you have to own a car or again, no job. Sure, you might get by for a year or two without one, but pretty soon you're gonna have to leave your job for a better one. That's how you move up now.
See, wages in this country have been declining for everyone but the top 1% for 40 years. It's gotten to the point where a job pays the same now as it did in 1995 after 20 years of inflation. Unless you won the lottery in life (rich parent, good genetics that make math a cinch, etc) you're not gonna save shit. It's all the rank and file can do to keep their heads above water.
Still, it does feel good to keep telling ourselves that if we just save a little money it'll all work out. It beats the hell out of facing how fuck we really, really are...
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In that you can not consistently get more than 40 hours of work out of anybody except a very, very, small percentage of workers. As in I've worked in IT for almost 20 years and never actually met anyone that I saw produce anything like 40 quality hours worth of work a week. (A lot of them thought they were. Then again they also thought they worked far faster than they really did. Giving estimates that were actually half the real value.)
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
2) News flash, most industries have competition "across the street", yet they still manage to train their employees. The trick is to ALSO pay them a decent wage. If it's worth it for the competition to hire them out from under you, then you're under-paying them. Training isn't a form of compensation, it's a capital investment that also incurs maintenance expenses.
The job market is a big place, and there's probably only a handful of jobs that demand all the skills you require. Why should I spend MY precious time training for your job, when that job will filled long before my training is complete?
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Does Khan, academy do correct placement, of commas 101?
Perhaps we should ask why the average employment length is so short? I really doubt it's because the employee's skills are no longer needed, and it's probably not because the employee thinks a different work environment will be substantially more pleasant.
I suspect the usual culprit is an industry culture that doesn't give regular raises to employees to ensure that they remain appropriately compensated. If the only way I can get paid what I'm worth is to get a job at a different company, then what do realistically expect me to do?
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Well, sure, but what's your point? Do you think they put the exemption there for companies to differentiate themselves with their altruistic overtime policy?
Another thing to note is that many computer professionals make above the old max, *and* the new max -- but as was mentioned above these rates are ridiculously low, near minimum wage. So again, why the exemption?
Previously, computer professionals had been considered exempt under section 13(a)(1), along with the exemption for executives, administrators, and professionals, but under Section 13(a)(17) a specific exemption was provided for any “computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker”
(from the same site I linked to).
To me it's strange they call-out computer professionals explicitly, and that they added it in 1996 when programmers were really starting to cost money for companies.
But you have to wonder about all the other exemption stuff too. There are also "learned professionals" and "creative professionals" exemptions. They might as well said "anyone that could cost big business a lot of money".
The "reasoning" behind the act is described as making it so that the FLSA would not apply to anyone who is capable of "exercising judgment" in their job. Because ostensibly, these people can negotiate for themselves. Have you found that to be the case with young/low level "professionals"? I know I haven't. I have seen lots of companies try to work the 20-something crowd 50-70hrs a week.
Also, at a time when states are passing laws against collective bargaining, it seems there are few places for these workers to turn. These rates need to be higher, and pegged to cost of living based on location. As it stands almost no one who works in SF or NYC would qualify.
meep
It's interesting that many non-US citizens comment that Americans must be insane for working so hard, while many strive to copy all things American except for their work ethic.
Newsflash: Americans work the longest hours and America has consistently been a superpower. Russians also work long hours and Russia is a superpower. Same for China, an emerging superpower.
As Robert Bosch famously said: "I don't pay people well because I have much money. I have much money because I pay people well."
I gave up sigs almost a year ago.
These rates need to be higher, and pegged to cost of living based on location.
Not really. The exemption just needs to be removed. Full stop. If a company would like a person to work more hours, then they can pay for it. If they want to exempt their C level employees or people for whom working extra hours may increase a bonus, stock option, or company stock, then that is fine.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Isn't the problem that the choice between "self value" and "providing for your family" isn't even a choice, and employers are well aware of that?
1. Start your own computer consulting business.
2. Charge $50-$150 per hr, and collect all of it, rather than the paltry $20/hr or so equivalent you'd get as an employee with the employer skimming the rest.
As long as people want to take the "easy" way out and just be an employee so they don't have to deal with administrative tasks, there will be an excess supply of employees, and employers can get away with paying low wages and demanding excessive overtime. Finding clients on your own and doing your own accounting is a PITA, but the increase in your compensation far, far exceeds the pain.
Just be sure not to call yourself a computer consultant. Form your own corporation with at least one additional employee (spouse as secretary or buddy who also wants to do computer consulting), or work another job as an employee. Along with screwing computer professionals over with FLSA, Congress also screwed them over by making it impossible for them to work as independent consultants. You have to do it working for a company with 2+ employees, or do it part-time as a second job.
Interesting NYTimes article, as it mirrors the situation here in the Netherlands in some ways. However we do not have this bizarre exception for IT workers. How on earth did that ever get passed?
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Maybe they should hire some and teach them instead of looking for a perfect match - that is what intelligent people do. Sociopaths saving last cent apparently do not even if that would in long run be beneficial.
Look, if it comes to a hard choice between your self-worth and your family, KILL YOUR FAMILY. Seriously, anything holding you down ain't worth it. You don't have to be brutal and shoot'em up or cut them to pieces with an axe: just poison their dinner. They'll go to sleep and never wake up. Yes, it will hurt like hell for the first weeks but eventually you'll come to appreciate your newly rediscovered quality time, the freedom and the economic stability. A family is an unneeded burden in this economy anyway. Give it a thought.
The question any manager should be asking is not "What if I train them and they leave?" but "what if I don't train them and they stay?"
If your competitor is offering training, better pay, better hours etc., then the secret to success is to match your competitor and raise the standards of your loyal employees, not cripple your current employees with bad management practices. This will eventually lead them to quitting in frustration or redundancy through loss of productivity
Employing new people who may have already shown themselves willing to leave if they get a find a better position, only encourages your existing employees to leave if they want better prospects or to coast through the day on minimal effort
Give you 1 hour of comp time for every hour of overtime you work. I am salaried and when I work over, I take each over hour as time off.
Honest employers do this, Dishonest ones just tell you the "sucks to be you" line.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
How on earth did that ever get passed?
In America the crookedest corporation is the federal government.
For 15 years I worked for a company that also tried to get exempt people to work more than 40 hours. I took the logic and worked 37.5 hours. When asked what my hours were I got answers like "enough to get your work done". So I got it done in less time. Sure twice a year I had to come in on a weekend for some emergency (or artificial) deadline but on average I worked 7.5 hours a day (8.5 minus an hour for lunch). But I worked hard those 7.5 hours. I did good work. And my bosses all valued that. My bosses were always happy that I did more work than my colleagues and with a good attitude and with minimal oversight and I had good communication and didn't care that I worked fewer hours (although I kept my hours as quiet as possible). So... that "salaried" or "exempt" thing can work both ways.
I live in San Jose, California, and nearly every company here has vacancies they can't fill.
Are they offering a competitive wage for those jobs? One that's appropriate for the high cost of living there? We still see dozens of applicants for every opening, and we have openings across the country.
Just another day in Paradise
We often pay people for training, but that comes with a commitment to stay with the company for a period or reimburse the costs. It may still be more lucrative for the employee to leave, but for us, we often attempt to determine if the employee's value has increased based upon that degree/certification. It's not difficult to deal with.
Just another day in Paradise
No, and they don't offer training for grammar nazis either. Jackass.
Just another day in Paradise
If they don't pay you, they can't force you to work overtime either.
Just learn to say NO and prioritize.
Not paying anyone for overtime would be so freakishly illegal where I live.
Oh horse shit... I've got an undergrad in physics and an MS in materials science.. I'm not going to have an entire fucking lab at my house playing the IT equivalent of the certification game. I've got the raw materials and the work ethic; if they want somebody that has skills in the ballpark, fine, I can do that.. but if they want the 'total fit' (i.e. somebody who quite literally is a skill clone of the previous engineer in that position) they can go piss up a rope because it doesn't exist.
Son, you've been drinking the Kool-Aid, and you damned near sound like an H1B apologist.
"I just reply to you when I see you spamming Slashdot with your nonsense"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)
Why'd you agree w/ my points on hosts then? Quoting you on it next:
"I'm not denying all those things" - by dave420 (699308) on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @11:39AM (#47927435) FROM -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...
Of course you're not: It's impossible to dispute FACT on HOSTS FILES superiority to other methods!
(Since they're fact in favor of hosts doing more than so-called competitors & doing more with less for more security, speed, reliability, + anonymity online - which is, of course, more than a mere trolling stalking harassing "ne'er-do-well" like yourself could *EVER* manage).
---
"I'm simply pointing out that it takes an AdBlocker to block your spamming"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)
Then WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT, shithead? Answer that!
(You stalk/harass me instead!)
If you're "so-called 'better solutions'" are BETTER, & I bother you? Use them... OBVIOUSLY, asshole, you don't & you're just a "ne'er-do-well" troll, OR you have "other motivations" (see next):
* DO YOU WORK FOR AN ADVERTISING FIRM, or ARE YOU A WEBMASTER/WEBCODER, or ARE YOU A MALWARE MAKER, or ARE YOU AFFILIATED WITH 1 OF MY COMPETITORS?
Answer that too!
I'll be waiting (but you'll avoid every question, or lie - which only makes you look stupider than ever vs. myself)
(You must be involved with 1 of those above, especially since you're TOO STUPID to EVER "get the best of me" & you know it, witness the above - & their "so-called 'solutions' are INFERIOR TO MINE on TONS of levels, evidencing their stupidity in & of itself via inferior designwork!)
APK
P.S.=> SEE Dave420 SQUIRM everybody, lol - evasions galore from him to ensue are almost guaranteed... apk
"I just reply to you when I see you spamming Slashdot with your nonsense"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)
Why'd you agree w/ my points on hosts then? Quoting you on it next:
"I'm not denying all those things" - by dave420 (699308) on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @11:39AM (#47927435) FROM -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...
Of course you're not: It's impossible to dispute FACT on HOSTS FILES superiority to other methods!
(Since they're fact in favor of hosts SINGLE FILE kernelmode faster part doing more than so-called many part overheads laden slower usermode competitors & doing more with less for more security, speed, reliability, + anonymity online - which is, of course, more than a mere trolling stalking harassing "ne'er-do-well" like yourself could *EVER* manage).
---
"I'm simply pointing out that it takes an AdBlocker to block your spamming"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)
Then WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT, shithead? Answer that!
(You stalk/harass me instead!)
If you're "so-called 'better solutions'" are BETTER, & I bother you? Use them... OBVIOUSLY, asshole, you don't & you're just a "ne'er-do-well" troll, OR you have "other motivations" (see next):
* DO YOU WORK FOR AN ADVERTISING FIRM, or ARE YOU A WEBMASTER/WEBCODER, or ARE YOU A MALWARE MAKER, or ARE YOU AFFILIATED WITH 1 OF MY COMPETITORS?
Answer that too!
I'll be waiting (but you'll avoid every question, or lie - which only makes you look stupider than ever vs. myself)
(You must be involved with 1 of those above, especially since you're TOO STUPID to EVER "get the best of me" & you know it, witness the above - & their "so-called 'solutions' are INFERIOR TO MINE on TONS of levels, evidencing their stupidity in & of itself via inferior designwork!)
APK
P.S.=> SEE Dave420 SQUIRM everybody, lol - evasions galore from him to ensue are almost guaranteed... apk
What you say is dead on. I'm not a teacher, I get treated and paid worse (IT contractor), but all that collective bargaining and whatnot has been completely gutted. The unions in "right to work" (aka free to be exploited) have 0 power. Wages are entirely stagnant, unemployment is far higher than what you hear from national news.
"Do it for the kids" is the standard wheel-turn of the rack they keep employees strapped to, usually with a "thanks for all you do" that's just as hollow. If guilt doesn't work not-so-subtle threats follow. Outspoken people have targets quickly painted on their backs and are given unjustified bad performance reviews to get rid of them without recourse. Only the young/naive are suckered by this and many are gone after the first year if not sooner.
None of this is new, it's been like this a long long time (10+ years) and gets worse every year.
This article has it all bass ackwards.
Employers do NOT want employees doing overtime because overtime costs time and a half just for the labor plus additional costs to the government. Employers studiously avoid having overtime be a regular thing if they can at all avoid it.
Employees LIKE overtime because they've already invested the time in getting to and from work, their overhead, and now they can spend an extra hour or two a day and get paid time and a half. That's a big bonus.
The struggling balance between these two objectives is that it is hard to bring on new employees who have the skills you need instantaneously when you have the work that needs doing. Conversely it is very hard to carry extra employees who aren't doing enough work and other employees don't like that because it means everyone may end up working fewer hours, which means a lower weekly paycheck.
The solution to this difficult balance is the smart employees make themselves valuable and available and the smart employers work to line up new workers as seasonal demands and such adjust. But it's very difficult.
If I'm exempt from overtime pay, there won't be any overtime. It's truly that simple.
The obvious reaction is, of course, to threaten to fire me. This'll sink the company's schedule even deeper into the hole from which overtime was supposed to dig them out. There's no future for a company that cannot afford to keep its half of the employment bargain, so it's just as well to leave it behind.
Collecting all of it - not really. When your corporation/LLC pays you, you'll still be responsible for all the regular employee taxes you'd pay with a regular job as an employee. But then you also have to cover all of the employer's contributions too (7.5% IIRC on Fed level, not sure if still accurate or what states w/ income taxes do). And then you also have to keep the corporate books straight, etc. which is either more time you have to work (for yourself) or more $ you pay out for an accountant to do it for you
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
My employer makes all salaried employees work Saturdays. Thankfully it's only a half-day, but had they been up-front about this, I would not have agreed or would have asked for significantly more money. I'm appreciative that they only ask me to work every other Saturday but there's zero pay for it. I put in about 200 hours per month while salaried positions elsewhere only require 160 hours a month. And to top it off, I've only earned 3 paid time off days in over a year, because all the additional time I work isn't counted against time off for doctor's visits and the like. It's bullshit.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
A lot of employers take advantage of exempt employees in the US. Working a 60 hour a week sporadically is OK, but chronic overtime indicates there's something rotten in the company which needs to be excised. The FLSA really needs to be updated to curb abuses and make sure that employers use human resources in a manner which does not cause them to burn out. The EU working time directive is a good example of how to do this.
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205
Working time is set to 48 hours per week MAXIMUM at an average over the course of a few weeks time.
"We are a tired, stressed and overworked nation, which has many negative consequences for our personal health and the care of our children. As a nation, we work harder and longer than almost all of our competitors, and much of that work is uncompensated."
What do you expect when you allow business interests, almost exclusively, to have their voices heard and set the agenda? There is an attitude in this country that seems to hold that the population exists to be employees, rather than businesses existing to serve the population. Its upside-down. But it shows how far out of whack this country's priorities are.
"What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
No, they can't force you to work overtime, but they can definitely fire you for not doing it.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
FTFY.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
When I worked for Ameritech (a Baby Bell, since swallowed), in two years I heard that a number of times. If I ever hear it again (unlikely), I'm going to find the exec in upper management who ordered it, pick them up by their fucking lapels, and shove their head through the wall.
There was recently an article in Salon? The Atlantic? entitled "Your HR Department Hates You", and it's true. You're a "resource", not "personnel", and if you think you're "valued personnel", try negotiating how much vacation time you get, comp time, or salary (and I assume that, like me, the regulations are written by the big companies so I *can't* join a union).
mark
"I just reply to you when I see you spamming Slashdot with your nonsense"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)
Why'd you agree w/ my points on hosts then? Quoting you here:
"I'm not denying all those things" - by dave420 (699308) on Wednesday September 17, 2014 @11:39AM (#47927435) FROM -> http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...
Of course you're not: It's impossible to dispute FACT on HOSTS FILES superiority to other methods!
Since my points of fact in favor of hosts SINGLE FILE native kernelmode faster part show hosts doing more, with less, vs. so-called 'competitors' many part messagepassing + other overheads laden slower usermode FAR MORE COMPLEX 'solutions' doing less than hosts do for more security, speed, reliability, + anonymity online!
I make creating a superior more efficient solution EASIER!
(Which is more than a mere trolling stalking harassing "ne'er-do-well" like yourself could *EVER* manage).
---
"I'm simply pointing out that it takes an AdBlocker to block your spamming"- by dave420 (699308) on Friday June 19, 2015 @10:31AM (#49945047)
Then WHY DON'T YOU DO THAT & use 'em? Answer that!
(You stalk/harass me instead!)
I bother you? Use them!
OBVIOUSLY, you don't & you're just a "ne'er-do-well" troll, OR you have "other motivations" (see next):
---
* QUESTION:
DO YOU WORK FOR AN ADVERTISING FIRM, or ARE YOU A WEBMASTER/WEBCODER http://slashdot.org/comments.p... , or ARE YOU A MALWARE MAKER, or ARE YOU AFFILIATED WITH 1 OF MY COMPETITORS?
Answer that!
No, instead as per your usual, you'll avoid every question, or lie!
(You can't EVER "get the best of me" & you know it, witness the above - & their "so-called 'solutions' are INFERIOR TO MINE on TONS of levels, OR YOU'D USE THEM, merely evidencing their stupidity in & of itself via inferior designwork & YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED as to your "true motives" in that last link above!)
APK
P.S.=> SEE Dave420 SQUIRM - evasions galore from him will ensue, guaranteed... apk
Really, I never have had problems getting my overtime paid.
Sure you see dozens of applicants. No doubt.
How many are qualified, how many are written in Crayon and how many in between?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
See subject: In these 2 links today http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ?
* Doesn't mean you have to be a complete a-hole to everyone now just because YOU FUCKED UP LARGE vs. MYSELF!
APK
P.S.=> R O T F L M A O @ U, boy... apk
This is nonsense.
I as a trauma surgeon work 24 to 36 hours straight. Saving life's, and being fully awake, alert, and engaged!
Stop complaining!
I then have 10-12 hours off which I am a backup surgeon and sometimes I do get called in to help out. Bare in mind I just finished a 24-36 hour shift.
Then I start it all again.
I am not unique. All of you that say you can not work adequately engaged for 16 hours are a bunch of whiny kids.
Grow up!
Now you're stretching. I look over every resume for the requisitions I post. And certainly we get a share that are unqualified, but plenty who are. And, I'm typically looking for engineers with specific skills and certs.
Just another day in Paradise
What you describe isn't legal under any form of FLSA or state laws..
Except in certain special industries (agriculture, etc.) if you don't fit in the managerial, administrative or technical buckets (e.g. exempt), you get paid time and a half for hours over 40, etc. There's no special "different pay code", etc., nor can you have an hourly rate that changes depending on the hours worked. just about every scheme you can think of to be clever has been tried, and found illegal.
An employee of a government agency (can include local, state, tribal or federal) can do "comp time", e.g. you can work more than scheduled hours, get paid for regular time, and take paid time off equal to the extra hours you worked.
I 100% agree with that^
meep
If it is not mandatory overtime, how can they legally fire you for not working it?
Isn't the problem that the choice between "self value" and "providing for your family" isn't even a choice, and employers are well aware of that?
No, the problem is that employers know the majority of people think that way, and thus can take advantage of the mentality.
If, tomorrow, enough American workers stood up from their desk, exclaimed "We're not doing any more work until some of this shit changes," and (most importantly) stood by one another in solidarity, it would be the employers who were left without a choice.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese