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Who Owns Your Overtime?
HughPickens.com writes: Fran Sussner Rodgers writes in the NY Times that a little-noticed change in the American workplace is about to occur. Later this month the Department of Labor is expected to announce an adjustment to the Fair Labor Standards Act raising the salary threshold for overtime from $23,660 per year to at least double that threshold. In 1975, the last year the threshold was significantly raised, 60 percent of salaried workers fell within the requirement for overtime pay while today, only 8 percent do. The new requirement should be a welcome change for millions of American workers.
But the change also speaks to an issue that affects everyone, whether eligible for overtime or not — the clash between the finite amount of time employees actually have versus the desire of employers to treat time as an inexhaustible resource. Employees in the United States currently work more hours than workers in any of the world's 10 largest economies except Russia. When everything over 40 hours is free to the employer, the temptation to demand more is almost irresistible. But for most employees, the ones exempt from overtime rules, their managers have little incentive to look for ways to use their time more efficiently. "We are a tired, stressed and overworked nation, which has many negative consequences for our personal health and the care of our children. As a nation, we work harder and longer than almost all of our competitors, and much of that work is uncompensated," writes Rodgers. "Time is our personal currency. We parcel it out, hour by hour, to meet the demands placed on us. We all pay a steep price, as individuals and as a nation, when we can't meet our most important obligations."
But the change also speaks to an issue that affects everyone, whether eligible for overtime or not — the clash between the finite amount of time employees actually have versus the desire of employers to treat time as an inexhaustible resource. Employees in the United States currently work more hours than workers in any of the world's 10 largest economies except Russia. When everything over 40 hours is free to the employer, the temptation to demand more is almost irresistible. But for most employees, the ones exempt from overtime rules, their managers have little incentive to look for ways to use their time more efficiently. "We are a tired, stressed and overworked nation, which has many negative consequences for our personal health and the care of our children. As a nation, we work harder and longer than almost all of our competitors, and much of that work is uncompensated," writes Rodgers. "Time is our personal currency. We parcel it out, hour by hour, to meet the demands placed on us. We all pay a steep price, as individuals and as a nation, when we can't meet our most important obligations."
They have incentive to work you longer than the 40 hours a week a salary is calculated based on (FTE): the more hours you work the cheaper your labor rate is.
Not gonna argue tooooo much, but remember that the pool of good jobs is a lot smaller than the pool of people who want them. Slackers and people who don't advance their own skills won't get too far, but if everyone did their damnedest, a lot of people would still get stuck with the jobs nobody wants.
The man.
Save money, as much as you can. Then tell your employers NO. No pager, no cell phone, no email, no overtime, no working late. Leave that as the legacy to your kids. The MBAs want to leave the piles of money they steal for other workers as their legacy to their kids. Don't leave your kids workplaces of fear and intimidation. Show these companies that they don't own you.
In Washington state where I am, the current value is $9.47 (pretty high in the country and our economy is great, thanks). This current cutoff is the salary equivalent of making a little over $11 an hour, IF they only work you 40 hours a week. That's...pretty low. It also means that if they work you something like nine and a half hours a day on average, you're making less than minimum wage by hour. There's a lotta low grade QA jobs in the tech industry with hours like that and pretty low pay...
If I call that a salary then it is a guaranteed weekly wage, but I can work that employee 60 (or 70 or 80) hours a week with no extra pay.
Fock me...There is no chance a system like that would be abused.
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Every once in a while some manager will try to discreetly broach the subject of fudging the books so I work longer one week, take some time off the next week and smooth it all out. To which I usually respond, loudly, with a beautifully crafted note of surprise in my voice, "You want me to FALSIFY MY TIMECARD?" They usually quickly deny it and scurry off to harass the salaried employees some more.
I'm quite wary of offers to come onboard as a FTE, as that usually means the company has a lot of overtime in the cards in the next two or three months, and a layoff cycle coming right after that. Fortunately their offers are usually so laughably bad that they're pretty easy to resist.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I remember when I lived in the States. It was the life of a slave. Working, working and more working. I was in a bilingual position in a school (it was a job exchange program between my country and USA).
One day, the principal gathered all the teachers and said:
"We have decided to help our students by giving them one hour more of tutoring classes after your (very long) school hours. These additional hours are strictly voluntary and they won't be paid. But please do it for the kids!"
Being a foreigner, I thought that everybody was going to reject such a clear exploitation. But all the teachers reacted with enthusiasm:
"Yes! We'll do it for the kids! For the kids!"
I said no and everybody look at me with hostility. Afterwards, I realized that I had tenure in my home country and was able to say no. All the American teachers could say no but the principal could fire them with no reason at all. Hence, they did anything that the principal said.
I went back to my home country and keep on working in my high school and, afterwards, in the government and the World Bank. I never worked as much as worked in the States (and the salary was not good).
As a Brit now living in the US I can clearly see the reason. Even though many companies in the EU won;t stop trying, this endless free overtime malarkey generally does not fly at all because most people there just won't go along with it.
The problem exists in the US because for some reason, the average American employee's mentality is to just accept and give in to whatever employers do to you without any questions or push back at all. If US employees saw their employment contract as what it actually is, a business deal between equals that exchanges time for money at a fixed rate, The problem would end overnight.
People that complain about having to work endless unpaid overtime just need to grow a pair and stand up to being abused. Do exactly what you're paid for, then go home. Seriously.
I will add one thing for the non-US audience. This summary suggests that in America all salaried employees get paid for 40 hours but can be required to work unlimited hours. This is NOT universal. There are many professional jobs that pay the full hourly rate to employees for required time beyond 40 hours, including travel time. My company has thousands of employees and pays fairly. My coworkers from other large engineer firms generally have similar experiences, though some have told me that the first 4 hours of OT always was free, with compensation beyond that.
If I was switching jobs I'm not sure I'd take one where workers regularly are expected to work (significantly) beyond 40 hours. Don't just accept it because you think that's the way it has to be in America.
-Ted http://www.freemathhelp.com/
Contrary to popular belief: The number of hours worked do not correspond to the amount of work done
Take programmers, for example - The output of top notch programmers are often many times than those of the coding monkeys
I have had the privileges to work with legendary programmers, I saw with my own eyes the things that they have produced and none of the ordinary coding monkeys can even come close
We allowed ourselves to be convinced we are overpaid. We are extremely prosperous and have a large population. There is no reason not to go to the 6 hour day/30 hour week and employ more people. Overtime is supposed to be for unforeseen circumstances.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
A lot of countries work longer hours:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
The US doesn't even make the top 10. Whoever wrote that article decided to (whether deliberately or not) cherry pick and say "ok, let's just filter among the largest grossing economies" and not necessarily the highest GDP per capita or even population. I don't know what number the US is, but I have a feeling we aren't even top 15, because I know Japan and China should probably fit somewhere closely after 10th.
In fact China may very well be higher ranked than all of these, just it's hard to tell because a lot of Chinese workers like to work very long hours for a year or two and save their money the whole time, and after that is done they'll live off of their savings for an extended period (up to a year.) These are usually people who live in rural areas and get factory jobs far away from home, and then go back home once they've had enough. They'll do something like 16 hours a day for a year solid, with very few days off. A lot of the ultraleft union types call it worker abuse, but it's not, the laborers actually like doing it this way, and it actually pisses the laborers off when western media puts pressure on them to not do what they want to do. The way they circumvent that is to help their employer conceal how many hours they actually work to the western companies that ask, which makes getting actual useful data about it practically impossible.
And they probably produce these miracle outputs in intense 3 or 4 hour bursts followed by paid sit-on-your-ass mental exhaustion.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
"I get paid a salary with the understanding that I am being employed to work well over 40 hours a week on most weeks"
I really can't conclude if you are a troll or just stupid.
I had a look at your lattest posts, so I'm inclined to think the former.
But just to be constructive and offer some substance to the answer:
What kind of contract is this that gets one side fully tied (the wages) but the other comes with no top boundary (the hours in exchange to the fixed wages)? It isn't neither liberal nor logical.
You say "I get paid a salary with the understanding that I am being employed to work well over 40 hours a week on most weeks". You know that your contract could perfectly reflect that fact, right? And instead you set a contract on an "understandment"? One of the pillars of a liberal society is respecting contracts and having a clear and stable legal framework for them but you and your employer decide to blow that off and lie in written.
Oh, it's compensated all right, it's just not the poor bastard doing the overtime that's getting the dough, it's the directors and the shareholders.
If you work for free, that's called slavery and you're a mug. And American holidays are a joke. And the American health care system is a joke and the internet competition is a joke. Brainwashed.
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In 1996, ...Congress amended the FLSA to include a specific exemption, at Section 13(a)(17), for “Computer Professionals.”
1. The application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software or system functional specifications;
2. The design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications; [or]
3. The design, documentation, testing, creation or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems;
http://www.generalcounsellaw.c...
FLSA: FUBAR.
meep
You are usually paid 50-100% extra for every extra hour worked which makes sense to me. It is costly to hire and train someone new so if you need someone for more hours than expected the employer will need to make an investment. This makes both parties happy. Some may also trade overtime for holiday time or leaving early on another day.
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In 1996, ...Congress amended the FLSA to include a specific exemption, at Section 13(a)(17), for “Computer Professionals.”
1. The application of systems analysis techniques and procedures, including consulting with users, to determine hardware, software or system functional specifications; 2. The design, development, documentation, analysis, creation, testing or modification of computer systems or programs, including prototypes, based on and related to user or system design specifications; [or] 3. The design, documentation, testing, creation or modification of computer programs related to machine operating systems;
http://www.generalcounsellaw.c...
FLSA: FUBAR.
You might note that the Labor Act does not say that the company CANNOT pay you overtime. Just that they aren't FORCED to. A decent company that cares about it's employees and it's own long term viability would pay overtime to it's employees anyway.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
remember that the pool of good jobs is a lot smaller than the pool of people who want them.
The pool of good jobs is smaller than the pool of people that want them, but bigger than the pool of people that are qualified for them. I live in San Jose, California, and nearly every company here has vacancies they can't fill. Also, neither the pool of jobs, nor the pool of workers, is fixed. Companies will expand if they think skilled workers will be available. Likewise, people will enter the labor market, and improve their skills, if they see jobs being offered. Economics is not zero sum.
I own a software company and my developers work 37 hour weeks (8 hrs. Mon-Thur and 5 hrs. on Fri). We don't allow work from home. We don't even allow them to check their email when they're off work. Work is work. Home is home. Our employees love the lighter schedule and I don't think we lose much (if any) productivity. Our competitors may even pay more, but I don't fear losing any of my employees.
Meh, it's not that bad. Just put down "Independent Contractor."
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
Number of hours working and effective work are two different things. It's what you achieve that matters.
What baffles me is that there's a salary threshold for overtime at all. Only thing that matters shall be hours exceeding normal hours.
In some cases there may be two levels of overtime pay as well - like where I live where overtime is 1.5 or 2.0 times the hour pay for overtime hours. No ceiling on salary for overtime pay, but there's some union agreements on total number of overtime hours that may be worked.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
it's all well and good to say don't buy a cell phone but a) it puts you at a social disadvantage and b) it only really saves about $1200 year for a family of 3, but rent on a crummy 3 bedroom apartment is damn near that. So after 10 years I can't even pay a years worth of rent...
Millennials have already cut the cord. They have Internet, but they needed that to get their jobs. In America where these abuses happen most you have to own a car or again, no job. Sure, you might get by for a year or two without one, but pretty soon you're gonna have to leave your job for a better one. That's how you move up now.
See, wages in this country have been declining for everyone but the top 1% for 40 years. It's gotten to the point where a job pays the same now as it did in 1995 after 20 years of inflation. Unless you won the lottery in life (rich parent, good genetics that make math a cinch, etc) you're not gonna save shit. It's all the rank and file can do to keep their heads above water.
Still, it does feel good to keep telling ourselves that if we just save a little money it'll all work out. It beats the hell out of facing how fuck we really, really are...
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2) News flash, most industries have competition "across the street", yet they still manage to train their employees. The trick is to ALSO pay them a decent wage. If it's worth it for the competition to hire them out from under you, then you're under-paying them. Training isn't a form of compensation, it's a capital investment that also incurs maintenance expenses.
The job market is a big place, and there's probably only a handful of jobs that demand all the skills you require. Why should I spend MY precious time training for your job, when that job will filled long before my training is complete?
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Perhaps we should ask why the average employment length is so short? I really doubt it's because the employee's skills are no longer needed, and it's probably not because the employee thinks a different work environment will be substantially more pleasant.
I suspect the usual culprit is an industry culture that doesn't give regular raises to employees to ensure that they remain appropriately compensated. If the only way I can get paid what I'm worth is to get a job at a different company, then what do realistically expect me to do?
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
Well, sure, but what's your point? Do you think they put the exemption there for companies to differentiate themselves with their altruistic overtime policy?
Another thing to note is that many computer professionals make above the old max, *and* the new max -- but as was mentioned above these rates are ridiculously low, near minimum wage. So again, why the exemption?
Previously, computer professionals had been considered exempt under section 13(a)(1), along with the exemption for executives, administrators, and professionals, but under Section 13(a)(17) a specific exemption was provided for any “computer systems analyst, computer programmer, software engineer, or other similarly skilled worker”
(from the same site I linked to).
To me it's strange they call-out computer professionals explicitly, and that they added it in 1996 when programmers were really starting to cost money for companies.
But you have to wonder about all the other exemption stuff too. There are also "learned professionals" and "creative professionals" exemptions. They might as well said "anyone that could cost big business a lot of money".
The "reasoning" behind the act is described as making it so that the FLSA would not apply to anyone who is capable of "exercising judgment" in their job. Because ostensibly, these people can negotiate for themselves. Have you found that to be the case with young/low level "professionals"? I know I haven't. I have seen lots of companies try to work the 20-something crowd 50-70hrs a week.
Also, at a time when states are passing laws against collective bargaining, it seems there are few places for these workers to turn. These rates need to be higher, and pegged to cost of living based on location. As it stands almost no one who works in SF or NYC would qualify.
meep
They get paid for their hours in China though. Our software engineers in Shanghai always asked for permission to work overtime before doing it. Could you imagine the cultural shift in the US if Americans did the same compared with the current situation where there's no hard boundary?
Also known as "meetings".
Very true, but employers are often greedy and treat their employees like robots...
Most people's optimal concentration span is relatively short, so anything that isn't ridiculously mundane can only be done efficiently for a few hours and regular breaks are needed... Even mundane work that doesn't require much thought will suffer from longer hours, as people will get tired and make more mistakes.
And ofcourse overworked, unhappy resentful employees won't expend any more than minimum effort.
I've seen many employers institute highly unpopular policies in an aim to increase output, only for it to have the opposite effect. Ofcourse then they blame the staff and never even consider that their own policies were the cause.
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These rates need to be higher, and pegged to cost of living based on location.
Not really. The exemption just needs to be removed. Full stop. If a company would like a person to work more hours, then they can pay for it. If they want to exempt their C level employees or people for whom working extra hours may increase a bonus, stock option, or company stock, then that is fine.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
1. Start your own computer consulting business.
2. Charge $50-$150 per hr, and collect all of it, rather than the paltry $20/hr or so equivalent you'd get as an employee with the employer skimming the rest.
As long as people want to take the "easy" way out and just be an employee so they don't have to deal with administrative tasks, there will be an excess supply of employees, and employers can get away with paying low wages and demanding excessive overtime. Finding clients on your own and doing your own accounting is a PITA, but the increase in your compensation far, far exceeds the pain.
Just be sure not to call yourself a computer consultant. Form your own corporation with at least one additional employee (spouse as secretary or buddy who also wants to do computer consulting), or work another job as an employee. Along with screwing computer professionals over with FLSA, Congress also screwed them over by making it impossible for them to work as independent consultants. You have to do it working for a company with 2+ employees, or do it part-time as a second job.
Give you 1 hour of comp time for every hour of overtime you work. I am salaried and when I work over, I take each over hour as time off.
Honest employers do this, Dishonest ones just tell you the "sucks to be you" line.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
For 15 years I worked for a company that also tried to get exempt people to work more than 40 hours. I took the logic and worked 37.5 hours. When asked what my hours were I got answers like "enough to get your work done". So I got it done in less time. Sure twice a year I had to come in on a weekend for some emergency (or artificial) deadline but on average I worked 7.5 hours a day (8.5 minus an hour for lunch). But I worked hard those 7.5 hours. I did good work. And my bosses all valued that. My bosses were always happy that I did more work than my colleagues and with a good attitude and with minimal oversight and I had good communication and didn't care that I worked fewer hours (although I kept my hours as quiet as possible). So... that "salaried" or "exempt" thing can work both ways.
If you work one month into 2015, stop work, and then reenter the work force at the end of 2016, you still have all of the years on your resume covered, and could take a break as long as nearly two years. It's very unlikely anyone would question it, or check it.
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Please check the bls.gov website. Your figures don't match reality.
Just another day in Paradise
I live in San Jose, California, and nearly every company here has vacancies they can't fill.
Are they offering a competitive wage for those jobs? One that's appropriate for the high cost of living there? We still see dozens of applicants for every opening, and we have openings across the country.
Just another day in Paradise
We often pay people for training, but that comes with a commitment to stay with the company for a period or reimburse the costs. It may still be more lucrative for the employee to leave, but for us, we often attempt to determine if the employee's value has increased based upon that degree/certification. It's not difficult to deal with.
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"A lot of countries work more hours"...
"Doesn't even make the top 10"....
Because your link included countries that somehow, amazingly, have even less worker protections than the US, and aren't our peers on the world stage.
Countries like Poland, Estonia, Greece, and Turkey.
Congratulations on making an stupid point with an improper comparison..
Meanwhile, among comparable countries (which, and this might be a shock to you, is the first step in making a valid comparison), we're among the most worked precisely because of our lack of time off, while other countries require more time off, yet manage similar output.
It's like excusing American gun violence by pointing to the murder rate in Somalia or Honduras.
And just as stupid.
Oh and you mocked unions again, even though they're the only reason for child labor laws, the 40hr work week, the weekend, holidays off, overtime pay, and a host of other worker rights. But again, your stupidity is nothing new. Leave it to a moron like you to act as though these are bad things.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
My employer makes all salaried employees work Saturdays. Thankfully it's only a half-day, but had they been up-front about this, I would not have agreed or would have asked for significantly more money. I'm appreciative that they only ask me to work every other Saturday but there's zero pay for it. I put in about 200 hours per month while salaried positions elsewhere only require 160 hours a month. And to top it off, I've only earned 3 paid time off days in over a year, because all the additional time I work isn't counted against time off for doctor's visits and the like. It's bullshit.
Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
FTFY.
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
Child labor laws were not brought about singularly by unions:
Child labor began to decline as the labor and reform movements grew and labor standards in general began improving, increasing the political power of working people and other social reformers to demand legislation regulating child labor. Union organizing and child labor reform were often intertwined. . .
. . .and that's a generous assessment of union involvement with child labor laws in the US. Child labor had been on the decline, but the National Consumer League had been lobbying the US congress for some time, and finally made progress when sentiment changed largely due to the scarcity of jobs.
This success arose not only from popular hostility to child labor, generated in no small measure by the long-term work of the child labor committees and the climate of reform in the New Deal period, but also from the desire of Americans in a period of high unemployment to open jobs held by children to adults.
This is not to say that unions weren't important, but they were as much a part of a larger social movement as they were a cause.
"You'll always have your very rich who don't have to work and your very poor who choose not to..."
Huh? Run that by me again...
The "very rich who don't have to work" amount to perhaps the wealthiest 1% (or much less) of the population. So we can ignore them, as it's a vanishingly small proportion.
But "your very poor who choose not to [work]..."?
Surely someone who is very poor has the greatest incentive of all to work? According to all economics textbooks, anyway. Remember how the marginal value of income increases the less money you have? Consider that someone who is hungry and cannot get anything to eat has a strong motive to get some money.
Of course you may be one of those superficially sophisticated, callous people who like to feel better by condemning millions of complete strangers for their supposed "laziness". In which case, please think again.
I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
Yeah, not so much. You're welcome to keep that tinfoil hat on, and keep buying gold though.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/...
http://azizonomics.com/2013/06...
http://www.bloombergview.com/a...
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