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Ask Slashdot: Have You Tried a Standing Desk?
An anonymous reader writes: Evidence is piling up that sitting down all day is really bad for you. I work primarily from home, and as I grow older, I'm starting to worry about long term consequences to riding a desk full-time. We talked about this a few years ago, but the science has come a long way since then, and so have the options for standing desks. My questions: do you use a standing desk? What kind of setup do you have? There are a lot of options, and a lot of manufacturers. Further studies have questioned the wisdom of standing all day, so I've been thinking about a standing/sitting combo, and just switching every so often. If you do this, do you have time limits or a particular frequency with which you change from sitting to standing?
I'm also curious about under-desk treadmills — I could manage slowly walking during parts of my work, and the health benefits are easy to measure. Also, any ergonomic tips? A lot of places seem to recommend: forearms parallel to the ground, top of monitor at eye level, and a pad for under your feet. Has your experience been the same? Those of you who have gone all-out on a motorized setup, was it worth the cost? The desks are dropping in price, but I can still see myself dropping upward of $1k on this, easily.
I'm also curious about under-desk treadmills — I could manage slowly walking during parts of my work, and the health benefits are easy to measure. Also, any ergonomic tips? A lot of places seem to recommend: forearms parallel to the ground, top of monitor at eye level, and a pad for under your feet. Has your experience been the same? Those of you who have gone all-out on a motorized setup, was it worth the cost? The desks are dropping in price, but I can still see myself dropping upward of $1k on this, easily.
I worked for one year at a company which offers standing desks. I found them to be pretty nice. It was hard to gauge productivity, because it was also my only time in an open office, so there were lots of other distractions I wasn't used to.
I'm in my early 40's, and I'm starting to run into a variety of back problems from poor posture / poor back muscle tone, as well as carpal tunnel and medial nerve (funny bone) problems from the way I rest my arms on the desk when coding. A standing desk helps with pretty much all of those things, if it can be easily readjusted over the course of the day to accommodate you need to both sit and stand.
The biggest problem is that decent standing desks aren't cheap, and companies treat them like a luxury. I seriously think there's a case for OSHA forcing companies to offer adjustable desks to office workers. Unfortunately, national politics don't currently favor such actions becoming reality.
If I have enough negotiating power, I'll make a standing desk a requirement for any future job I take.
I've gone the other way. The couch desk. Actually it's more like just a couch.
Who ordered that?
I could get used to it, but since it's so easy to move it can also cope with the recent findings that a mix of standing and sitting works best.
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If you're adding a treadmill, you'd better be ready to spend more than a grand.
>> Have You Tried a Standing Desk?
Only when I've had to mash something into a console at a server rack. My solution to the whole "not sitting around" bit has been to avoid long stints in heads-down dev roles. Instead, I walk around a lot talking to people, go for walks/runs/bikes, park a good half-mile or more away from the office, etc.
I put together a standing desk from Ikea bits and pieces with a chair the allowed me to sit at the desk, stand, rest.
What I learned: Standing in one position all day, especially on a hard surface locks your knees and muscles. You need a soft surface, to stand on.
Being able to sit for some tasks and stand for others, is perfect. But you need awareness to switch between the them regularly and get away from your desk.
I could not stand a treadmill desk. It's essentially multi-tasking. It's like drinking coffee while walking.
So... it's not just one or other. It's balance...
It's a nice desk, fashionable, well-made, holds plenty of weight without complaint. It schedules when I should stand up and sit down, and the "breathe" gentle reminder is effective without being obtrusive.
The biggest downside is that the sensor that detects whether or not you are standing next to it is extremely picky about distance. Apparently I often stand too close and so it doesn't always recognize that I'm there and credit me accordingly. Also, it would be better if it integrated with Apple's HealthKit in addition to their own cloud stuff. Do I really want data about when I'm at my home office desk to even exist, let alone be stored in the cloud? No - that's pretty much a "Let's figure out the best time to burglarize my house" toolkit.
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I've been dabbling with standing desks a lot, and am getting to really like them, except that I find standing for extended periods considerably more uncomfortable than walking. I've considered doing the treadmill-desk thing, but don't really have the space for it. What I did find helps a lot is "rocker-bottom" shoes with thick curved soles such as Shape-Ups. The instability encourages me to be constantly moving and flexing my knees, drastically reducing the discomfort of standing still without requiring any expensive space-filling treadmills.
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I have a laptop where I work, and I periodically stick a cardboard box under my laptop and stand up at my desk. Maybe it's not ideal, but for the price I find it acceptable. You could always try this before you decide to shell out the 1k+, it's not like your body knows the difference. Also, as far as frequency goes, I did the whole 20 minutes/5 minutes thing, though I often forgot to sit down after five minutes.
This is called "PHYSICAL LABOR".
It may be a foreign concept to you. If so, keep in mind that some symptoms of physical labor are muscle fatigue and pain after extended time.
Most people use the standing desk on/off. Some of them mostly use it off.
Also note that given that you are on slashdot during business hours. You might not feel comfortable using a standing desk - and the extra attention it brings - while looking at slashdot or other non-work related web sites.
A standing desk, if you use it consistently, will work in that it will keep you in better physical condition. But only if you are the kind of guy that will put up with PHYSICAL LABOR.
Most people that suddenly decide to try physical labor hate it and quickly quit. It's similar to a gym membership.
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using the ikea LACK side table on top of my normal desk, which puts my keyboard and mouse right and hand-height. You can use a circular saw to cut the legs off to your exact specifications.
+ tall VIVO desk mount monitor stand, which raises the monitor & laptop to eye height.
+ hog heaven floor mat to stand on.
The rare times I need to sit, I just unplug my laptop and take it over to a chair. In theory, the monitor height is easily adjustable via a fast-latch, and the ikea stand can be removed, so within a minute I could be back to a normal desk - but i find the change of environment from disconnecting and moving to a separate space is more relaxing.
My lower back used to hurt CONSTANTLY, but since I've been standing it has been a night-and-day improvement. I can't recommend it enough. the transition period was surprisingly easy. I suggest taking your chair away completely for the first week or two - if it's nearby you will be tempted to cheat, and far more likely to give up, I think.
Works very well. You can set it at any height you like. Not too expensive either, at least as compared to other motorized adjustable desks. I'm pleased with it overall.
your problem is possibly down to sitting around too much, one day you'll be stuck in that chair 24/7. Not good.
the answer is to get up and start using those muscles that have forgotten what they're there for,
I find it suspicious that sitting is suddenly mega-dangerous. I'm sure there are risks but they seem a bit exaggerated. Is this the new "fish oil" scam? A lot of the expensive standing desks and treadmills certainly look like a nice way to make money.
So... you became a manager?
I have the Uplift 900. My company was very generous with the desk budget, so I went all out and got an 80" wide top. The 80" width is big enough for all my work, but if I were buying it again, I would *not* buy the desk top from Uplift. The price is too high for the quality- I think it probably costs a fortune to ship a big heavy desk top. The digital memory keypad is well worth the money. The Uplift castor wheels are also worthwhile. The Uplift keyboard tray is solid, but nothing special. There are better keyboard trays out there, and I definitely recommend getting a keyboard tray. The cable management kit is overpriced and next to useless.
Keep in mind that at standing height, the desk does have a little bit of wobble, especially if you use the castor wheels. My monitor was unsafely wobbly and I had to use a wood clamp to clamp it to the desk for safety. Part of this is due to my monitor- for a 28" screen, the included stand has a small (too small) footprint and odd weight distribution. For most monitors this probably won't be a problem.
I tend to stand until after lunchtime, then sit the rest of the day, depending on how heavy a lunch I eat. My back problems from a car accident 2 years ago have nearly disappeared. Best feature of a standing desk is eating lunch- your lap isn't in the path of falling food objects. If there is a spill imminent, you can simply dodge out of the way. I haven't spilled lunch on my pants since I got the desk.
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Here's a previous reply I made on the same subject:
I'm a coder who stands all day ...and I've been doing it for over two years now. I used to experience back pain when I sat all day, but that went away after a month or so. I used to get sleepy after lunch when I sat all day... not so much anymore. You really do get used to it. A few suggestions for those who want to try it:
1) Make the switch the first day you get back from a longer holiday and are already out of your normal routine.
2) You *must* get a nice floor mat, preferably a dense memory foam mat designed for standing cubes. Working in your socks (if your employer will let you) while standing on said mat almost feels like a foot massage.
3) Another *must* - don't get a desk-height chair! At least, not for a while. You'll find yourself sitting way too often and never get adjusted to standing all day. Most of my fellow "standing" co-workers that have tall chairs sit at least 80% of the time.
4) It takes a couple weeks to get used to standing. Stick with it.
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I bought an electric adjustable height desk leg set (UpLift 900) from thehumansolution.com and bought a complete desk shell elsewhere for just the top (at quite a savings) in the size that I wanted. I like a deep desk and this one is 30". They've got even more options now for building your own desk including treadmills.
I found that standing didn't work out for me... however the adjustable height of the desk has made my sitting time far more comfortable and ergo.
I've been using a standup desk exclusively for over a decade now and I'll never willingly go back to sitting all day.
Couple of thoughts:
1. Make it tall enough so you have to stand straight up and look straight ahead (not look down or up at your screen).
2. I like mine to be deep so the keyboard is far in and I can lay mt arms out on the desktop while typing. Hell, my son spent much of the first year of his life sleeping for hours on a pad on my desktop nestled between my arms, chest and keyboard while I worked.
3. Get a really tall drafters chair. While standing is nice; it also nice to be able to take a seat once in a while for a few minutes or while stuck on an exasperating conference call.
4. Get a small step stool or bucket or something that you can put 1 foot on at a time to bend one leg. This gives you a chance to rest one leg -- it really helps especially when getting started.
I used to have the common hunch of a programmer; switching to a standup desk fixed my posture so I stand up straight and don't have a hunch any longer.
I'm standing at an Ikea electric sit/stand desk for the last 6 months and absolutely love it. I start standing in the morning and usually take a sit-break early to mid-afternoon then up and down a handful of times thru the afternoon - mostly standing with 20 minute breaks every once in a while. It's an excellent way to avoid the commitment of standing 100% of the time and the knee/foot/cushioning issues that standing all day raises.
It's been absolutely astounding for my back - keeping my core body muscles shifting and moving all day is an absolute joy.
I thought I'd need to "work up to standing" but I pretty much hit 80-85% right out of the gate and it's stayed pretty consistent.
I absolutely love it and I'd encourage anyone that can afford to give it a swing - it'll cost yout about $500 to give it a try, a couple hundred more for the corner desk which gives you a lot more space for notebooks, reference material, etc.
I wouldn't go back. I have a standing desk at the office and my WFH space. At the office it was pretty easy because our cubes include adjustable work surfaces. For my office at home I built a standing desk with parts from IKEA for less than $250. It's basically a kitchen counter top on top of a bookcase. You need to make sure that you have the work space set up correctly with the keyboard and monitor at the proper height. With a standing desk you can't just keep slouching down.
Like any change a standing desk takes some getting used to for most people. I have been blessed with good posture and I have never had any back problems. Try it for a couple of hours at a time and work your way up. Make sure you're standing up straight, keep your arms at 90 degrees, and try to keep your monitor at a height where you can look straight ahead.
Beyond just standing, take frequent breaks to move around. Other posts on Slashdot have pointed out that frequent breaks and physical activity improve overall performance. Get off your ass, stand up straight and move.
I've always wondered about sitting on the floor with a pad and no back, and treating it like a meditative posture (so keeping a straight back is paramount). Has anyone tried this for work?
If not, has anyone spent a considerable amount of time meditating on the floor? I'm wondering if it's still stressful on your back a
Like most desks-with-chairs, the ideal work environment is going to be unique to the person and to the task.
I find writing with a paper and pen or typing for less than a few minutes at a time easier to do if I don't have to change my standing or sitting mode. I find doing the same for between a few minutes and about half an hour somewhat easier to do sitting down than standing. If I'm writing or typing more than half an hour I'm probably going to take a break anyways.
I find it uncomfortable to stand more than 6-8 hours a day or more than 1-2 hours without a 20-30 minute sit-down break, but that's just me. When I was in better physical shape (read: when I was a teenager), I could do stand-up work in a restaurant all day with just a sit-down break for meals.
As far as which stand-up desk/workstation will work best for me? I'm not sure. Given my current job requirements, I doubt any would be as good as an ordinary adjustable sit-down office chair and a typical office computer desk. I'm almost certain your job requirements are not exactly the same as mine so your ideal work environment will very likely be different as well.
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The science to it is basically this: When sitting, your metabolism slows, you burn less calories, and all the fun that goes with that - higher likelihood to be overweight, thus higher blood pressure, cardiac issues, and so on. We have studies that prove this too.
So, don't sit right? Well, standing isn't very good for you either, not for long periods of time. We're lacking any really hard science on what the optimal time period really is, although we know that it's variable depending on the person. We do know that you're more at risk for immediate health problems from long periods of standing rather than sitting (which results in longer term, less immediate issues). For example, even with a soft gel mat, after a few weeks, one stander ended up with medical conditions.. They're not just an anomaly either; back pain, carotid atherosclerosis - a circulation issue, varicose veins, pinched nerves, and more are associated with long periods of standing.
The fact is that we don't really know how much standing is enough to ward off the dangers of sitting, and worse, we don't know how much standing is too much and will result in health problems. There's probably an optimal healthy point, but we don't have any studies that show where that optimal healthy point is on average, much less how it needs to be adjusted for an individual.
It's also important to note that positive claims associated with standing desks that are not associated with physical well-being, such as increased mental capacity, creativity, memory, attentiveness, productivity and so on, are largely due to recirculating personal anecdotes, which we know carry a strong bias and use no objective measures for comparison. What few studies there have been show no evidence of benefit, nor of detriment. In a obvious note though, they show that treadmill or cyling desks DO reduce attention and productivity by a significant amount, and they haven't been shown to result in any impressive health gains either - users average weight loss of only about 3 lbs a year, for example, and that's about the only study you'll find on the subject!
What this all means is that, scientifically speaking, advocating for the health benefits of a standing desk is about the same as advocating for the health properties of barefoot running, clay cleansing (or really any cleanses, including charcoal, pickle juice, and others), and the whole genre of fad diets.
There's no scientific proof that shows they are a net benefit, which means you shouldn't assume they provide one. They are just standard junk science until then - taking a fact or finding and running with it past the point and on to speculation and pure fantasy. In fact, these are more akin to the fad diets, in that you're not only not gaining a benefit, you're that much more likely to cause harm to yourself. Standing desks are the new fen phen.
If you're worried about staying healthy, skip the fads and just add an exercise plan to your day. Take a 40 minute walk at lunch. Maybe workout a few times a week. Eat healthy, but more important in most western countries, eat a proper portion size. That's all it really takes.
A couple years ago I got a demo of an Ergotron adjustable arm, and have been using it every since. I like it a lot, but it isn't without its flaws.
First off, make sure you have an anti-stress mat to stand on. When I first started to use the arm, my feet became really sore. Standing all day on what was essentially a concrete floor with a few millimeters worth of "carpet" was too hard on my soles. The anti-stress mat relieved that completely.
Second, once you stand and raise your computer screen, you now have to raise everything else with it. This likely won't be an issue if your entire desk surface is up high, but whereas I have an arm that mounts to a normal desk it is something I've had to deal with. My keyboard, mouse, and monitors are at standing level, but my phone and anything else on my desk is down where I have to reach for it. Being in IT support, my primary computer (Windows) is on the arm while my secondary (MacBook) is on a stand on a box.
Third, standing takes getting used to, and eventually you will stand most of the time. However, sometimes you will want to sit. You'll want to have an option to sit down, whether it's an adjustable desk/arm or you can go somewhere else and work for a time.
Finally, and this is an issue mainly for my current solution with a desk-attached arm, be sure your desk/arm can hold everything you want. My Ergotron arm model is capable of dual displays, but the 23" Dells I use strain the weight limit of the arm. If I add anything more with any appreciable weight, the arm sinks down to the desk.
Overall I like my solution, and will not go back to a sitting-only desk.
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I have the opportunity to work standing as well as sitting at my desk since it can be elevated. However I don't think that standing is much better, the problem is non-movement.
Unfortunately working with computers is hard when walking around.
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Ask Slashdot: Have You Tried a Standing Desk?
Comment 1: Yes.
Comment 2: No.
Done.
I've been using a Lifespan 1200 walking treadmill with an appropriate height desk for about 2 years and did a standing desk for about 6 months before that. The walking desk is easier on your feet and burns more calories (directly from walking and indirectly via reduced 'resting state' time). Shoes required are very different - standing requires firm ankle support with a multi-layer sole & insole combination, while walking requires high quality shoes that limit your side-to-side foot roll.
Unfortunately, this program doesn't come cheap. You can spend $1500 for a desk & treadmill combination. (Much less if you want a crappy setup that you won't happy with, or with custom-built setup that you create yourself). Insoles replacements can add up, though shoe costs are not a problem long term if you buy high quality expensive shoes to start.
If you want absolute low cost, skip the desk and focus on frequent natural movements & a simple diet of the essentials. A rigorous exercise program can make you very fit, but won't give the long term cardio benefits of walking. Strength training will increase muscle mass that will increase your caloric load, but it doesn't give any cardio benefits at all. Diet only can eliminate the problems of weight and nutritional imbalances, but doesn't improve your cardio.
Combine a desk program with an intelligent nutritional plan (the correct nutrients at the correct time, with the correct caloric load) and you can lose a lot of weight. (I lost 100 lbs in two years.) After you reach ideal weight, you will likely find yourself consuming as much calories as what made you overweight. (If you do this, make sure you will stick with the the walking desk regimen long term for the health benefits, if you go back to sitting again, you just put yourself on the yo-yo diet program.
Standing all day is really difficult at first. It took me about two weeks to adjust, but it's still slightly uncomfortable if I stand in one place for more than about 20 minutes without moving. I consider this a feature, not a bug. Things I've noticed:
bad:
- I get frustrated more easily when coding. I often find that I have to leave my desk and pace around more often
- not comfortable
- I want to leave my desk a lot, which is bad for wearing headphones. get wireless headphones.
good:
- I don't feel tired after lunch. in general, if you're already tired, it's much easier to stand and be alert than sit and be alert
- my back feels great. I find myself unable to maintain even remotely decent posture while sitting, but I find it easier to straighten my back when standing
- I sort of absentmindedly wander around the room while thinking. This keeps me moving which is good, and I think better while pacing anyway, for some reason
- at the end of the day I feel like I've done actual *work* and I find it easier to get to sleep at a reasonable time.
Overall, it's definitely worth it.
This. The real problem isn't sitting or standing: it's being still.
As standing desks have become more of a fad in the last few years, longer-term research is finally starting to come out regarding their effects, and everything I've seen so far indicates that its users are basically just trading one set of issues with sitting desks (i.e. circulatory problems, certain spinal issues, heart problems) for a different set of issues with standing desks (i.e. foot problems, different spinal issues, heart problems).
In both cases, the research is indicating that simply increasing the amount of activity in your routine alleviates the worst of the concerns, which is why it's so important to build regular breaks into your day where you get up and stretch, walk around, or at the very least do something that gets you out of your usual position, whether that's sitting or standing.
Standing has the benefit of predisposing its practitioners towards more regular activity, which can be a benefit, to be sure, but if all you're doing is trading sitting for standing without otherwise changing your routine, you really aren't going to see a net improvement. At best, you'll see a temporary relief of the symptoms specific to sitting before you start to develop the symptoms specific to standing.
I am working at my desk for 10h+ per day. After I started my freelance work in my own office and a longer period of sickness due to back problems, I searched for the same topic. In the end, I got an electric standing-sitting-desk base for around 500 bucks and put a 2,5m tabletop on myself - the prebuilt and "professional" electronic tables were 1k+ for the cheapest and that was too much money back then.
I switch positions a few times a day between sitting, standing and standing/sitting on a bar stool (according to the research I read before buying, it's not the sitting that hurts you most - it's staying in the same position for too long). Also, I now put 3 small water bottles with magnesium on the table and try to drink them over my workday - helps concentration and creeping dehydration and forces you to move due to natural urges.
Also, I've just bought a new office chair due to my height, because the previous one simply did not support my neck in any way. With the new one, I also have a nice headrest and can really switch between relaxation through sitting and muscle activation through standing.
However, buying fancy furniture does not help by itself. You also need to do some sort of sport to train your muscles (preferably a team sport, because of the naturally diversified activation of muscles throughout your body) and you should do some reading on ergonomic desk setup. At one of my previous employers, I was sick for a few weeks due to a wrong combination of desk height and monitor arrangement. That lead to a wrong positioning of my neck, which in turn resulted in an inflamed nerve center - not nice.
TLDR: Do yourself a favor and get a matching chair and electric table matched on your height and weight, check your desk setup and remember to get into some sport-routine.
Easier - include an elevated chair so that the desk does not have to be adjusted. I read recently (within past six months) that walking for five minutes undoes the damage of an hour of sitting. I probably read it here, in fact. If we just take a five minute walk break every hour, it wouldn't be so bad. Personally, I gave up snacking while working (yes, another fat computer programmer, reformed) and drink water instead... which makes me have to go to the bathroom a lot, which gets me moving a lot.
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Humans are rarely really still. Crocodiles beat us handily in that department (and in no-rules mixed martial arts too, but I digress). "Thinking hard" also causes lots of semi-voluntary movements.
When sitting, in a chair with back support - these same movements largely get restricted to neck, feet, arms from elbows till finger tips, slight weight shift along the bottom. When standing, new possibilities open up.
It is not unusual to see standing desk people moving feet around - this feet movement is 20 times more energy intensive than sitting feet movement because the feet are supporting much more weight. Same goes for small bends in knee and ankle joints. Arms are also now free to move much more, even backwards. Torso bends when standing are more energy intensive too. People are also motivated to not keep paper, pen, odds and ends very close to the place of work, but arrange it at some distance such that it is 2-3 small steps to fetch them rather than "making a long arm" that people typically do in a sitting desk.
So simply switching sitting to standing does switch sitting issues to standing issues, but while moving larger parts of the body more frequently. Circulation and calorie consumption increase.
And yes, as you too agree, mixing these up and adding some walking is even better.
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