Slashdot Mirror
Ask Slashdot: Have You Tried a Standing Desk?
An anonymous reader writes: Evidence is piling up that sitting down all day is really bad for you. I work primarily from home, and as I grow older, I'm starting to worry about long term consequences to riding a desk full-time. We talked about this a few years ago, but the science has come a long way since then, and so have the options for standing desks. My questions: do you use a standing desk? What kind of setup do you have? There are a lot of options, and a lot of manufacturers. Further studies have questioned the wisdom of standing all day, so I've been thinking about a standing/sitting combo, and just switching every so often. If you do this, do you have time limits or a particular frequency with which you change from sitting to standing?
I'm also curious about under-desk treadmills — I could manage slowly walking during parts of my work, and the health benefits are easy to measure. Also, any ergonomic tips? A lot of places seem to recommend: forearms parallel to the ground, top of monitor at eye level, and a pad for under your feet. Has your experience been the same? Those of you who have gone all-out on a motorized setup, was it worth the cost? The desks are dropping in price, but I can still see myself dropping upward of $1k on this, easily.
I'm also curious about under-desk treadmills — I could manage slowly walking during parts of my work, and the health benefits are easy to measure. Also, any ergonomic tips? A lot of places seem to recommend: forearms parallel to the ground, top of monitor at eye level, and a pad for under your feet. Has your experience been the same? Those of you who have gone all-out on a motorized setup, was it worth the cost? The desks are dropping in price, but I can still see myself dropping upward of $1k on this, easily.
I worked for one year at a company which offers standing desks. I found them to be pretty nice. It was hard to gauge productivity, because it was also my only time in an open office, so there were lots of other distractions I wasn't used to.
I'm in my early 40's, and I'm starting to run into a variety of back problems from poor posture / poor back muscle tone, as well as carpal tunnel and medial nerve (funny bone) problems from the way I rest my arms on the desk when coding. A standing desk helps with pretty much all of those things, if it can be easily readjusted over the course of the day to accommodate you need to both sit and stand.
The biggest problem is that decent standing desks aren't cheap, and companies treat them like a luxury. I seriously think there's a case for OSHA forcing companies to offer adjustable desks to office workers. Unfortunately, national politics don't currently favor such actions becoming reality.
If I have enough negotiating power, I'll make a standing desk a requirement for any future job I take.
I've gone the other way. The couch desk. Actually it's more like just a couch.
Who ordered that?
I could get used to it, but since it's so easy to move it can also cope with the recent findings that a mix of standing and sitting works best.
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If you're adding a treadmill, you'd better be ready to spend more than a grand.
>> Have You Tried a Standing Desk?
Only when I've had to mash something into a console at a server rack. My solution to the whole "not sitting around" bit has been to avoid long stints in heads-down dev roles. Instead, I walk around a lot talking to people, go for walks/runs/bikes, park a good half-mile or more away from the office, etc.
I put together a standing desk from Ikea bits and pieces with a chair the allowed me to sit at the desk, stand, rest.
What I learned: Standing in one position all day, especially on a hard surface locks your knees and muscles. You need a soft surface, to stand on.
Being able to sit for some tasks and stand for others, is perfect. But you need awareness to switch between the them regularly and get away from your desk.
I could not stand a treadmill desk. It's essentially multi-tasking. It's like drinking coffee while walking.
So... it's not just one or other. It's balance...
I can't stand for more than a couple of hours without my back hurting. Parking my ass back in my Aeron chair fixes it. Walking for long periods is a problem for me right now, too.
Must be broken. But if I had a standing desk, I'd just be looking for a stool to go with it right now
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It's a nice desk, fashionable, well-made, holds plenty of weight without complaint. It schedules when I should stand up and sit down, and the "breathe" gentle reminder is effective without being obtrusive.
The biggest downside is that the sensor that detects whether or not you are standing next to it is extremely picky about distance. Apparently I often stand too close and so it doesn't always recognize that I'm there and credit me accordingly. Also, it would be better if it integrated with Apple's HealthKit in addition to their own cloud stuff. Do I really want data about when I'm at my home office desk to even exist, let alone be stored in the cloud? No - that's pretty much a "Let's figure out the best time to burglarize my house" toolkit.
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I've been dabbling with standing desks a lot, and am getting to really like them, except that I find standing for extended periods considerably more uncomfortable than walking. I've considered doing the treadmill-desk thing, but don't really have the space for it. What I did find helps a lot is "rocker-bottom" shoes with thick curved soles such as Shape-Ups. The instability encourages me to be constantly moving and flexing my knees, drastically reducing the discomfort of standing still without requiring any expensive space-filling treadmills.
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I prefer the 135-degree angle slouch in a chair that can lean back over a standing desk. The ergonomics just can't be beat, especially when you consider what a standing desk does to your forearms (I see a lot of people with standing desks leaning on them).
But I have a bunch of dogs and other animals so even though I work from home now I get up quite a bit to walk around and see how things are doing. I find the dogs love me more than my desk.
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I have a laptop where I work, and I periodically stick a cardboard box under my laptop and stand up at my desk. Maybe it's not ideal, but for the price I find it acceptable. You could always try this before you decide to shell out the 1k+, it's not like your body knows the difference. Also, as far as frequency goes, I did the whole 20 minutes/5 minutes thing, though I often forgot to sit down after five minutes.
As someone who transitioned from standing on a hard concrete floor wearing steel-toed boots for 8 hours a day to a desk job: that was one of the best days of my life, and I am in no hurry to go back to standing up all day. That being said, I do try to walk around for a bit every now and then during the day, even if it is just across the building to talk with someone for 10-15 minutes.
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This is called "PHYSICAL LABOR".
It may be a foreign concept to you. If so, keep in mind that some symptoms of physical labor are muscle fatigue and pain after extended time.
Most people use the standing desk on/off. Some of them mostly use it off.
Also note that given that you are on slashdot during business hours. You might not feel comfortable using a standing desk - and the extra attention it brings - while looking at slashdot or other non-work related web sites.
A standing desk, if you use it consistently, will work in that it will keep you in better physical condition. But only if you are the kind of guy that will put up with PHYSICAL LABOR.
Most people that suddenly decide to try physical labor hate it and quickly quit. It's similar to a gym membership.
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go on craigslist, buy a cheap treadmill. You don't need a desk specific one. put a board across the treadmill arms and put your laptop/screen, keyboard and mouse on it. Adjust the height with some 2x4"s. set the speed at 1-2mph, any faster and you'll be concentrating more on walking than working. On conference calls, teh whine of the treadmill does go over the call, stop walking when talking.
I switched to doing about 75-80% of my work standing up about two years ago. I stand for a half hour, lie down flat for 3 minutes. Rinse, repeat.
It will take a bit to get used to it, but I have more energy through the day, and just plain feel much better. When I'm in a situation where I need to sit all day now I really notice how much harder it is on the body.
Important point: You need GOOD SHOES. I have really comfy ergonomic sandals, makes a massive difference.
I wanted to try a standing desk for as little cash as possible. I used some wire rack shelving and tie wraps. Similar to this - http://www.amazon.com/Seville-... Removed one shelf. Positioned the middle shelf at the appropriate height. Used the tie wraps and attached to the middle shelf to create an 'L' shaped work environment. Used shelf liners and nylon cutting boards for work surfaces. Left the wire rack for under my laptop for ventilation. Positioned my printer in the bottom rack for balancing weight. I love using this inexpensive and versatile setup.
using the ikea LACK side table on top of my normal desk, which puts my keyboard and mouse right and hand-height. You can use a circular saw to cut the legs off to your exact specifications.
+ tall VIVO desk mount monitor stand, which raises the monitor & laptop to eye height.
+ hog heaven floor mat to stand on.
The rare times I need to sit, I just unplug my laptop and take it over to a chair. In theory, the monitor height is easily adjustable via a fast-latch, and the ikea stand can be removed, so within a minute I could be back to a normal desk - but i find the change of environment from disconnecting and moving to a separate space is more relaxing.
My lower back used to hurt CONSTANTLY, but since I've been standing it has been a night-and-day improvement. I can't recommend it enough. the transition period was surprisingly easy. I suggest taking your chair away completely for the first week or two - if it's nearby you will be tempted to cheat, and far more likely to give up, I think.
I wrote an article about my solution. http://brightrocketdesign.com/blog/post/dont-just-sit-there-getting-fit-with-a-treadmill-desk
I'm on my feet all day anyway. When I need/want to do some paperwork, I want to SIT DOWN for a little while. Sitting may not be good for you, but standing on a concrete floor all day isn't much better.
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Works very well. You can set it at any height you like. Not too expensive either, at least as compared to other motorized adjustable desks. I'm pleased with it overall.
I find it suspicious that sitting is suddenly mega-dangerous. I'm sure there are risks but they seem a bit exaggerated. Is this the new "fish oil" scam? A lot of the expensive standing desks and treadmills certainly look like a nice way to make money.
So... you became a manager?
Best desk I've ever had. So good I bought a second one for home use.
Want to stand? No problem. Want to sit? Go ahead, it takes five seconds to adjust.
It's nice and solid, is made in the USA, and comes pre-assembled.
http://www.ergodesktop.com/
My company raised my desk (at my request) to a standing level a little over a year ago. I'm a generally healthy (10 lbs overweight) 48 year old guy and like most engineers, I get very little exercise. I was suffering from back pain a lot at the time. I made a really cushy thing for my feet (standing mat on top of plywood on top of 1x2 spacers so I get the extra flex from the plywood).
I keep a bar stool at my desk and alternate between sitting and standing throughout the day - averaging probably about half the time on each. When I try to stand more than half of my day, my feet start hurting.
I hate my standing desk. No doubt about it. Standing sucks. *BUT* I hated having backaches much more and those are essentially gone now. The only time my back hurts now is when I actually overdo it at home or I have a three day weekend and I spend a lot of time sitting in my recliner (like I did last holiday weekend). This tends to go away quickly and it's a pretty good trade-off.
I have the Uplift 900. My company was very generous with the desk budget, so I went all out and got an 80" wide top. The 80" width is big enough for all my work, but if I were buying it again, I would *not* buy the desk top from Uplift. The price is too high for the quality- I think it probably costs a fortune to ship a big heavy desk top. The digital memory keypad is well worth the money. The Uplift castor wheels are also worthwhile. The Uplift keyboard tray is solid, but nothing special. There are better keyboard trays out there, and I definitely recommend getting a keyboard tray. The cable management kit is overpriced and next to useless.
Keep in mind that at standing height, the desk does have a little bit of wobble, especially if you use the castor wheels. My monitor was unsafely wobbly and I had to use a wood clamp to clamp it to the desk for safety. Part of this is due to my monitor- for a 28" screen, the included stand has a small (too small) footprint and odd weight distribution. For most monitors this probably won't be a problem.
I tend to stand until after lunchtime, then sit the rest of the day, depending on how heavy a lunch I eat. My back problems from a car accident 2 years ago have nearly disappeared. Best feature of a standing desk is eating lunch- your lap isn't in the path of falling food objects. If there is a spill imminent, you can simply dodge out of the way. I haven't spilled lunch on my pants since I got the desk.
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Here's a previous reply I made on the same subject:
I'm a coder who stands all day ...and I've been doing it for over two years now. I used to experience back pain when I sat all day, but that went away after a month or so. I used to get sleepy after lunch when I sat all day... not so much anymore. You really do get used to it. A few suggestions for those who want to try it:
1) Make the switch the first day you get back from a longer holiday and are already out of your normal routine.
2) You *must* get a nice floor mat, preferably a dense memory foam mat designed for standing cubes. Working in your socks (if your employer will let you) while standing on said mat almost feels like a foot massage.
3) Another *must* - don't get a desk-height chair! At least, not for a while. You'll find yourself sitting way too often and never get adjusted to standing all day. Most of my fellow "standing" co-workers that have tall chairs sit at least 80% of the time.
4) It takes a couple weeks to get used to standing. Stick with it.
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At my last workplace I converted an Ikea desk (forget the model name) to something that would work as a standing desk. I have CP that affects my legs, so throughout the day I would alternate between standing on an anti-fatigue mat and sitting on a stool that approached the desired height.
What I found was that alternating between sitting and standing was ideal, but that I couldn't always focus on certain types of tasks while standing. Anything that required a lot of my attention caused me to sit down... Stuff like coding or deep troubleshooting. So I started sitting down more. Then I started developing some stiffness and pain in my neck and shoulders due to bad ergonomics caused by sitting on that stool.
My advice: Get a standing desk if you like, but ensure you get either an adjustable height desk (again, Ikea is now offering these with a turn crank or button press operation for a lot less than some places I've seen) or get a chair/stool that is the appropriate height. Also, don't think just because you're standing all day, you're getting healthier. You should still step away from your desk for a short break once at hour at the minimum, and walk around some.
I bought an electric adjustable height desk leg set (UpLift 900) from thehumansolution.com and bought a complete desk shell elsewhere for just the top (at quite a savings) in the size that I wanted. I like a deep desk and this one is 30". They've got even more options now for building your own desk including treadmills.
I found that standing didn't work out for me... however the adjustable height of the desk has made my sitting time far more comfortable and ergo.
I've been using a standup desk exclusively for over a decade now and I'll never willingly go back to sitting all day.
Couple of thoughts:
1. Make it tall enough so you have to stand straight up and look straight ahead (not look down or up at your screen).
2. I like mine to be deep so the keyboard is far in and I can lay mt arms out on the desktop while typing. Hell, my son spent much of the first year of his life sleeping for hours on a pad on my desktop nestled between my arms, chest and keyboard while I worked.
3. Get a really tall drafters chair. While standing is nice; it also nice to be able to take a seat once in a while for a few minutes or while stuck on an exasperating conference call.
4. Get a small step stool or bucket or something that you can put 1 foot on at a time to bend one leg. This gives you a chance to rest one leg -- it really helps especially when getting started.
I used to have the common hunch of a programmer; switching to a standup desk fixed my posture so I stand up straight and don't have a hunch any longer.
Everyone at my small company has one. They aren't cheap, but neither are oscilloscopes, good computers, multi-monitor setups, office space, lab benches, etc.
Not everyone here adjusts them regularly, but I'd say around half of us do. It's good to adjust sit/stand posture multiple times a day. Also, for some workflows, we're in and out of our office / lab for multiple iterations and having the workspace at our standing height is just more convenient.
We also use the stand mode quite a bit for sharing / desk meetings / etc. I'm the one in charge of buying office furniture and it's unlikely we will buy anything else in the near future for office desks.
being tall is problematic.
For starters, I was not able to find any way with what I had at my disposal to setup a standing desk without having to look downwards all day long. Having your head tilted down all day is bad. The company doesn't want to buy us new monitors (I'm still on a 19in 4:3 Acer that only does VGA) and at the time, my laptop was too small to push far away. So I really had no means of being able to type comfortably, and look straight ahead at what I was doing.
Secondly, being 6'7 (200cm), standing up is a bit awkward in a cubicle environment. While cubicles are not 100% private, they at least offered some illusion of privacy. Standing up however, there is no question about it. You're pretty much out in the open. Kinda sucks to feel like everyone is looking at you.
So to get my standing, I just go out for a cigarette ;)
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
I'm standing at an Ikea electric sit/stand desk for the last 6 months and absolutely love it. I start standing in the morning and usually take a sit-break early to mid-afternoon then up and down a handful of times thru the afternoon - mostly standing with 20 minute breaks every once in a while. It's an excellent way to avoid the commitment of standing 100% of the time and the knee/foot/cushioning issues that standing all day raises.
It's been absolutely astounding for my back - keeping my core body muscles shifting and moving all day is an absolute joy.
I thought I'd need to "work up to standing" but I pretty much hit 80-85% right out of the gate and it's stayed pretty consistent.
I absolutely love it and I'd encourage anyone that can afford to give it a swing - it'll cost yout about $500 to give it a try, a couple hundred more for the corner desk which gives you a lot more space for notebooks, reference material, etc.
I wouldn't go back. I have a standing desk at the office and my WFH space. At the office it was pretty easy because our cubes include adjustable work surfaces. For my office at home I built a standing desk with parts from IKEA for less than $250. It's basically a kitchen counter top on top of a bookcase. You need to make sure that you have the work space set up correctly with the keyboard and monitor at the proper height. With a standing desk you can't just keep slouching down.
Like any change a standing desk takes some getting used to for most people. I have been blessed with good posture and I have never had any back problems. Try it for a couple of hours at a time and work your way up. Make sure you're standing up straight, keep your arms at 90 degrees, and try to keep your monitor at a height where you can look straight ahead.
Beyond just standing, take frequent breaks to move around. Other posts on Slashdot have pointed out that frequent breaks and physical activity improve overall performance. Get off your ass, stand up straight and move.
I built my own standing desk. Just some scrap 2x2s for the legs and some piece for the top and keyboard rest. Measured for my work desk to the get ergonomics right (or close). Inspired by some ideas http://iamnotaprogrammer.com/I... and http://www.homedit.com/ikea-st...
Also, I've heard to make sure you have anti fatigue mats for your feet. Mine were 6 bucks at Harbor Freight (only using 2 of 4).
I started last October just trying it out, and could only stand for and hour or two at a time. I just moved my standing desk to the floor when I needed to sit at the desk (laptop, keyboard, 2nd monitors and trackpad . . . took all of a minute to switch!! ). Around Dec or Jan I made the change to stand to all the time and make it through my day (~9 hrs) handily.
I'm glad I didn't purchase an expensive adjustable desk because it would just live in the standing position all the time now. If you can use a ruler and a power drill, just make your own with that IKEA trick, and switch it off your desk as needed. Doesn't take more than a minute even with wires in the back and will save you a boatload of money.
Don't be fooled though, I still have a chair. I look for chances to sit during the day (brainstorming with colleague, meetings, etc) and it DOES feel nice to sit down. But for the day-to-day, standing has been great and I don't have plans to switch back any time soon.
I updated my work station about 2 years ago, and the wife wanted hers about 3-4 months later. I rarely use it in the sitting mode anymore, but I do really like being able to adjust the height to it isn't in the same position all the time.
I do have a nice mat because I like to roam around barefoot at home and more than a couple hours straight on hardwood without shoes made my feet unhappy. With decent shoes I never had an issue.
I went with an UPLIFT from http://www.thehumansolution.com/uplift-900-electric-sit-stand-desk-base-black.html I just got the base and made a table top out of 2x6 clear pine boards. I spent a little bit extra to get the undermount CPU holder...but needed to make some tweaks to get it to fit the desk like I wanted. I also just screwed a UPS to the underside so I only have one power cable. I think I found a coupon and free shipping and came in about $550 each, then bought a standing mat last year for $80 or so on amazon. I think I remember an email from them saying they have a cheaper option that doesn't have "memory" in the controller.
I have large monitors with lots of vertical real estate, so I like my eye level to be a couple inches below the monitor bezel, but I find I rarely adjust the monitor (it is connected to the desktop).
Good luck in your search, Oh, I have no association with the UPLIFT guys other than being a satisified customer.
I am mid-40's with back and sciatica problems and also recovering from recent laparoscopic surgery. I have been using a balance ball as my chair for 8 years, which worked for me pretty well up until a few months ago. (Now sitting hurts.)
I find I lose my ability to concentrate while standing-- I don't have the deep-focus time I used to get. I also need to have something to lean on periodically (bar height chair from ikea works). For me, the "zero-g" chairs aren't any good; not sure if it is a height thing or what. Locking your knees defeats the benefits of standing to some degree, and you really need to properly contract your abs to brace your spine. A treadmill would not help me personally.
The best advice seems to be to be at a healthy weight, have a strong core and actively engage it in whatever position you are in, change positions regularly, and find an excuse to walk around regularly throughout the day. There is no substitute for excercise though.
For my setup, I got a cheap Chinese made standing desk frame and bought the table top from Ikea. I cut, sanded and stained the table to my liking. I also routed the wires and moved the up/down switch to where I'd want it. I previously had a Fit Desk stationary bike so I pulled the desk (it goes where the handlebars normally are) off and used under the standing desk. This whole setup was probably around $400 USD total. I could have done it cheaper buy buying the same stationary bike as the Fit Desk (can be found much cheaper at ~$70 USD)
I've always wondered about sitting on the floor with a pad and no back, and treating it like a meditative posture (so keeping a straight back is paramount). Has anyone tried this for work?
If not, has anyone spent a considerable amount of time meditating on the floor? I'm wondering if it's still stressful on your back a
I wouldn't want to try one. For one, standing still for long hours isn't that good for you, either. For another, that's a *great* idea, now management can make your working/living space even smaller (Dilbert's old Velcro on your back, and hang you on the wall coming, soon).
Then there's those of us with other issues, like my arthritis.
I'm waiting for the introduction of not only treadmills under the desk, but have them generate electricity, so you produce ROI doubly.....
And ergonomics? I sit with my keyboard in my lap, several feet from my monitors. The way my cube's aligned, I can't really put my feet on the desk, but that meets all those ergonomic criteria, y'know, with wrists supported, monitors straight ahead....
mark
I got the Ikea Bekant http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S99022526/; it's great, solidly built, and less than $500US. I used a felt pen on the legs to mark my optimum sitting and standing heights so that I don't have to take five minutes fine-tuning the height every time I change heights (which would have guaranteed that I would never change the height!).
Sometimes I change multiple times a week, sometimes multiple times a day. It's great.
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I have an electric sit-stand that I cobbled together from a nice Ikea top and an old (hideous) electric sit-stand desk we found on Craigslist.
Standing gets old, sitting does too. Need to be able to move the top up and down to get the best of both worlds.
You'll really want a cable tray, and a couple long outlet bars for the back of it. You're screwed if you don't manage cables and provide power that floats up and down with you. Monitor arm helps, too - I like Ergotrons. I mount my KVM switch, my USB and Gigabit Ethernet hubs, my Thunderbolt dock sub-surface, so they're handy, but invisible, also float up and down with the desktop.
Check the min and max heights on your legs before you buy - wish my Craigslist model was just a teense taller, but it suffices.
There are nice motorized legs online for sale without desktops. My wife bought a set of these - they have memories for different height positions. She custom-stained a design into her own unfinished wood desktop before sealing it. Beautiful. She runs with a designed-for-desk treadmill she integrated into the whole affair.
Good chair for the sit times is a cherry on top. I have a used Aeron.
I've been standing for 1 year now. You're right about the ergonomics of having your arms parallel to the ground and the monitor top at eye level. You'll also want an anit-fatigue mat. The Imprint Cumulus Pro Commercial sounds good- going to try it out next week. The anti-fatigue mat is probably one of the most important parts. I started with the standesk 2200 (google it for plans / pics) - the ikea hack where you attach a shelf on brackets to the $8 Ikea Lack table. You can just set this on top of your normal sitting desk and see how you like standing for around $25. You'll definitely want an ant fatigue mat to go with it- and a firm one is good so you can shift your weight from one foot to the other and not have your foot sink in too far. I actually just got upgraded to a geek desk max- and I can highly recommend this solution. It's adjustable and even has presets for sitting / standing heights. Being able to stand AND sit is ideal- I always try to sit during meetings and take a good sitting lunch break. Using a wacom tablet is also helpful in terms of ergonomics for my wrist- but I'm often using 3D DCC applications rather than coding or or other IT work. I intitially started standing after having a lot of back and neck pain from working 70+ hours during crunch time. I was physically wrecked by sitting so much. Now I'm excited to go home and sit on the couch. And yes- I do find pain relief from sitting and standing during the day. I probably stand around 6 -7 hours a day. The first week is the toughest, but it gets easier.
Like most desks-with-chairs, the ideal work environment is going to be unique to the person and to the task.
I find writing with a paper and pen or typing for less than a few minutes at a time easier to do if I don't have to change my standing or sitting mode. I find doing the same for between a few minutes and about half an hour somewhat easier to do sitting down than standing. If I'm writing or typing more than half an hour I'm probably going to take a break anyways.
I find it uncomfortable to stand more than 6-8 hours a day or more than 1-2 hours without a 20-30 minute sit-down break, but that's just me. When I was in better physical shape (read: when I was a teenager), I could do stand-up work in a restaurant all day with just a sit-down break for meals.
As far as which stand-up desk/workstation will work best for me? I'm not sure. Given my current job requirements, I doubt any would be as good as an ordinary adjustable sit-down office chair and a typical office computer desk. I'm almost certain your job requirements are not exactly the same as mine so your ideal work environment will very likely be different as well.
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My work provided me with one of these as their standard standing solution. It's not motorized, but it has pistons to assist raising/lowering that makes it relatively easy. Changing positions takes about 30s as I have to move my keyboard and mouse from the keyboard tray to the adjustable work surface.
The only cons are that it takes a bit of time to get set up correctly as you have to place a couple of stop screws to set the maximum height. It's also a little difficult to adjust the horizontal spacing on the monitor mounts (I have a 2-display setup). Other than that, it works great!
I've been trying to get my current employer into using them after having a great time with adjustable standing desks at my last employer. I sat roughly 2 hours a day, but I was regularly up-and-down (about as frequent as people who take breaks regular).
What I don't see here is how well it works for impromptu meetings. You can get a lot more people around modern multi-monitor rigs than before, and there's no thinking about it: suddenly you're presenting to 5 peers in a meeting planned only seconds ago, and everyone is comfortable & can see the screen.
BTW, Ikea has an electronically-adjusted standing desk for $489: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/cata...
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The science to it is basically this: When sitting, your metabolism slows, you burn less calories, and all the fun that goes with that - higher likelihood to be overweight, thus higher blood pressure, cardiac issues, and so on. We have studies that prove this too.
So, don't sit right? Well, standing isn't very good for you either, not for long periods of time. We're lacking any really hard science on what the optimal time period really is, although we know that it's variable depending on the person. We do know that you're more at risk for immediate health problems from long periods of standing rather than sitting (which results in longer term, less immediate issues). For example, even with a soft gel mat, after a few weeks, one stander ended up with medical conditions.. They're not just an anomaly either; back pain, carotid atherosclerosis - a circulation issue, varicose veins, pinched nerves, and more are associated with long periods of standing.
The fact is that we don't really know how much standing is enough to ward off the dangers of sitting, and worse, we don't know how much standing is too much and will result in health problems. There's probably an optimal healthy point, but we don't have any studies that show where that optimal healthy point is on average, much less how it needs to be adjusted for an individual.
It's also important to note that positive claims associated with standing desks that are not associated with physical well-being, such as increased mental capacity, creativity, memory, attentiveness, productivity and so on, are largely due to recirculating personal anecdotes, which we know carry a strong bias and use no objective measures for comparison. What few studies there have been show no evidence of benefit, nor of detriment. In a obvious note though, they show that treadmill or cyling desks DO reduce attention and productivity by a significant amount, and they haven't been shown to result in any impressive health gains either - users average weight loss of only about 3 lbs a year, for example, and that's about the only study you'll find on the subject!
What this all means is that, scientifically speaking, advocating for the health benefits of a standing desk is about the same as advocating for the health properties of barefoot running, clay cleansing (or really any cleanses, including charcoal, pickle juice, and others), and the whole genre of fad diets.
There's no scientific proof that shows they are a net benefit, which means you shouldn't assume they provide one. They are just standard junk science until then - taking a fact or finding and running with it past the point and on to speculation and pure fantasy. In fact, these are more akin to the fad diets, in that you're not only not gaining a benefit, you're that much more likely to cause harm to yourself. Standing desks are the new fen phen.
If you're worried about staying healthy, skip the fads and just add an exercise plan to your day. Take a 40 minute walk at lunch. Maybe workout a few times a week. Eat healthy, but more important in most western countries, eat a proper portion size. That's all it really takes.
A couple years ago I got a demo of an Ergotron adjustable arm, and have been using it every since. I like it a lot, but it isn't without its flaws.
First off, make sure you have an anti-stress mat to stand on. When I first started to use the arm, my feet became really sore. Standing all day on what was essentially a concrete floor with a few millimeters worth of "carpet" was too hard on my soles. The anti-stress mat relieved that completely.
Second, once you stand and raise your computer screen, you now have to raise everything else with it. This likely won't be an issue if your entire desk surface is up high, but whereas I have an arm that mounts to a normal desk it is something I've had to deal with. My keyboard, mouse, and monitors are at standing level, but my phone and anything else on my desk is down where I have to reach for it. Being in IT support, my primary computer (Windows) is on the arm while my secondary (MacBook) is on a stand on a box.
Third, standing takes getting used to, and eventually you will stand most of the time. However, sometimes you will want to sit. You'll want to have an option to sit down, whether it's an adjustable desk/arm or you can go somewhere else and work for a time.
Finally, and this is an issue mainly for my current solution with a desk-attached arm, be sure your desk/arm can hold everything you want. My Ergotron arm model is capable of dual displays, but the 23" Dells I use strain the weight limit of the arm. If I add anything more with any appreciable weight, the arm sinks down to the desk.
Overall I like my solution, and will not go back to a sitting-only desk.
mr.nobody
--Don't you wanna go where nobody knows your name?
At 6'5" and two lumbar surgeries, I have long faced back issues.
I do have and occasionally use a Exerpeutic 2000 WorkFit High Capacity Desk Station Treadmill. I'm in a bit of an open space, so it's not that practical to use during the day since it makes noise, but I can use it at night after others have gone home. It has a laptop on a stand on top of it (so the screen is about eye level), and on either side is half teh keyboard of a very old Kinesis split keyboard. It works great: I can walk readily at 5-7mph and read and type at about normal speed.
As my main sitting setup, I use a Faulkner 48977 Laguna Style Dual Burgundy Padded Recliner with Plastic Armrests, X-Large, with a keyboard on my lap (which is not the most ergonomic thing ever, but I don't experience carpel tunnel) and a laser mouse balanced precariously on the armrest. The mouse falls off the armrest relatively often.
I have the opportunity to work standing as well as sitting at my desk since it can be elevated. However I don't think that standing is much better, the problem is non-movement.
Unfortunately working with computers is hard when walking around.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Why should 152 comments be allowed? The comments should have been closed after two.
Ask Slashdot: Have You Tried a Standing Desk?
Comment 1: Yes.
Comment 2: No.
Done.
I've been using a Lifespan 1200 walking treadmill with an appropriate height desk for about 2 years and did a standing desk for about 6 months before that. The walking desk is easier on your feet and burns more calories (directly from walking and indirectly via reduced 'resting state' time). Shoes required are very different - standing requires firm ankle support with a multi-layer sole & insole combination, while walking requires high quality shoes that limit your side-to-side foot roll.
Unfortunately, this program doesn't come cheap. You can spend $1500 for a desk & treadmill combination. (Much less if you want a crappy setup that you won't happy with, or with custom-built setup that you create yourself). Insoles replacements can add up, though shoe costs are not a problem long term if you buy high quality expensive shoes to start.
If you want absolute low cost, skip the desk and focus on frequent natural movements & a simple diet of the essentials. A rigorous exercise program can make you very fit, but won't give the long term cardio benefits of walking. Strength training will increase muscle mass that will increase your caloric load, but it doesn't give any cardio benefits at all. Diet only can eliminate the problems of weight and nutritional imbalances, but doesn't improve your cardio.
Combine a desk program with an intelligent nutritional plan (the correct nutrients at the correct time, with the correct caloric load) and you can lose a lot of weight. (I lost 100 lbs in two years.) After you reach ideal weight, you will likely find yourself consuming as much calories as what made you overweight. (If you do this, make sure you will stick with the the walking desk regimen long term for the health benefits, if you go back to sitting again, you just put yourself on the yo-yo diet program.
I've got a couple of problems that prevent me from running out to buy a standing desk:
* I'm 6'4" - just about past the upper limit for some standing desks, from what I hear;
* I've worked as a contractor for large parts of my recent professional life, quite mobile including laptop - you get to sit at whatever workspace is assigned to you, and this may change at a moment's notice.
Some chairs really do make the lower half of my body pain after a while, so I'm all for standing (part of the time, at least). What worked for me in the past is to stick an empty cardboard box under the laptop - and another one under the monitor, if a separate one has been provided. Cheap, and fairly easy to move aside when you want to sit down for a while.
The arms parallel and monitor at eye level didn't work, obviously, but even so it was quite comfortable and helped to alleviate the chair's insult to my butt.
A colleague at one more permanent place used boards and bricks to build a higher platform on his desk (days before standing desk came into fashion).
You might want to try something like that out first before shelling out money. But chances are good you are going to like it.
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
Standing all day is really difficult at first. It took me about two weeks to adjust, but it's still slightly uncomfortable if I stand in one place for more than about 20 minutes without moving. I consider this a feature, not a bug. Things I've noticed:
bad:
- I get frustrated more easily when coding. I often find that I have to leave my desk and pace around more often
- not comfortable
- I want to leave my desk a lot, which is bad for wearing headphones. get wireless headphones.
good:
- I don't feel tired after lunch. in general, if you're already tired, it's much easier to stand and be alert than sit and be alert
- my back feels great. I find myself unable to maintain even remotely decent posture while sitting, but I find it easier to straighten my back when standing
- I sort of absentmindedly wander around the room while thinking. This keeps me moving which is good, and I think better while pacing anyway, for some reason
- at the end of the day I feel like I've done actual *work* and I find it easier to get to sleep at a reasonable time.
Overall, it's definitely worth it.
I started standing about 15 years ago. At the time I was having pretty bad RSI issues with my hands and forearms. I stand all day, every day, it works great for me. I move around a fair amount from one foot to the other, sometimes lean on the desk. My RSI issues are history and I am generally very happy with the setup. I think part of the reason that it is so good ergonomically is that while slouching and standing _is_ possible, it isn't really all that relaxing, thus my posture is much better standing compared to sitting.
I have modified a typical sitting desk to fit my needs; it works quite well. I stacked up boxes and upside down flower pots to get everyting at the right height (keyboard so forearms are roughly horizontal and monitor at eye level). I stand barefoot on a foam camping pad (Ridgerest) folded in half so it is double thickness. Here is a picture of the desk (SFW):
http://i.imgur.com/S16AWp8.jpg
By all means, spend a $1000 on a desk if that is what works for you, your body is important and in the long term $1000 may be worth it. However, you might try a lower cost alternative at least to start out to see how it feels.
This. The real problem isn't sitting or standing: it's being still.
As standing desks have become more of a fad in the last few years, longer-term research is finally starting to come out regarding their effects, and everything I've seen so far indicates that its users are basically just trading one set of issues with sitting desks (i.e. circulatory problems, certain spinal issues, heart problems) for a different set of issues with standing desks (i.e. foot problems, different spinal issues, heart problems).
In both cases, the research is indicating that simply increasing the amount of activity in your routine alleviates the worst of the concerns, which is why it's so important to build regular breaks into your day where you get up and stretch, walk around, or at the very least do something that gets you out of your usual position, whether that's sitting or standing.
Standing has the benefit of predisposing its practitioners towards more regular activity, which can be a benefit, to be sure, but if all you're doing is trading sitting for standing without otherwise changing your routine, you really aren't going to see a net improvement. At best, you'll see a temporary relief of the symptoms specific to sitting before you start to develop the symptoms specific to standing.
Regular breaks is what you need, not a break where you go check some youtube videos, but a break where you do some exercises. When I worked from home, I had a elliptical in the other room and I aimed to do thousand steps every hour. It took a few minutes, but not long enough to start sweating. Other things I did was just some exercising like push ups, pull ups, squats, sit-ups. Not that many, but enough to get a burning feeling. It just takes a few minutes every hour, and you boost your muscle tone as a nice side effect. I also did some cardio training somewhere during the day. This would depend on how I felt, I planned to do this in the morning but I'm a real night person, so I ended doing it after work. This forced me to stop working on time, and do my 10 hours of work every day, of course 10 hours including all the breaks. I only worked like 6 hours a day, and I was more productive than before when I worked 9 hours straight, afraid of leaving my desk (I can not miss a IM or e-mail!).
So I suggest, first start to take regular breaks, and than start to wonder what desk would be better for your posture. Standing all day is also not ideal, but it feels good when you switch from 20 years of sitting to your first weeks of standing.
Currently I've another job that doesn't allow us to work from home, and where we sit all day for 9 hours straight. After almost a year I am again suffering from old annoyances, like numb legs, lower back pain, pain in my shoulder... sitting all day long is the unwritten rule number one to be productive in this new culture... and it is not good. I even got an injury while exercising in the evening and apparently is was caused by being inactive for too long hours (9 hours office + 2 hours commute by car = 11 hours) followed by sporting too hard.
I am working at my desk for 10h+ per day. After I started my freelance work in my own office and a longer period of sickness due to back problems, I searched for the same topic. In the end, I got an electric standing-sitting-desk base for around 500 bucks and put a 2,5m tabletop on myself - the prebuilt and "professional" electronic tables were 1k+ for the cheapest and that was too much money back then.
I switch positions a few times a day between sitting, standing and standing/sitting on a bar stool (according to the research I read before buying, it's not the sitting that hurts you most - it's staying in the same position for too long). Also, I now put 3 small water bottles with magnesium on the table and try to drink them over my workday - helps concentration and creeping dehydration and forces you to move due to natural urges.
Also, I've just bought a new office chair due to my height, because the previous one simply did not support my neck in any way. With the new one, I also have a nice headrest and can really switch between relaxation through sitting and muscle activation through standing.
However, buying fancy furniture does not help by itself. You also need to do some sort of sport to train your muscles (preferably a team sport, because of the naturally diversified activation of muscles throughout your body) and you should do some reading on ergonomic desk setup. At one of my previous employers, I was sick for a few weeks due to a wrong combination of desk height and monitor arrangement. That lead to a wrong positioning of my neck, which in turn resulted in an inflamed nerve center - not nice.
TLDR: Do yourself a favor and get a matching chair and electric table matched on your height and weight, check your desk setup and remember to get into some sport-routine.
At best, you'll see a temporary relief of the symptoms specific to sitting before you start to develop the symptoms specific to standing.
You seem to be assuming that this is a trade between sitting all the time or standing all the time. Not so. The "ideal" situation is an adjustable desk that will let you sit or stand. You then do each part of the day.
There is definite evidence that switching up your working position has real benefits. You don't have to -- probably should not -- do all of one or all of the other.
here is a cure for the desire to use a treadmill desk:
1. get a treadmill desk of any variety.
2. set up your computer as you like.
3. get to work.
4. wait until you are concentrating on an email or a task and make a misstep.
5. fall ungracefully.
Note #1: do not forget to flail on the way down to make sure you get your coffee or soda all over you and your computer
Note #2: do not forget to whack your skull on your desk or other furniture on the way down.
optional: if you fortunately have installed a backstop to the treadmill and have forgotten to attach the little string for autostop on the treadmill, you can also enjoy the benefits of the treadmill belt sandpapering your flesh and your clothes while you struggle to get off of it.
voila! you are now cured from *ever* wanting to use a treadmill desk again!
* $500 electric desks are out there, you just have to look for them. IKEA has one now -> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/cata...
* Mixing standing and sitting is good. Moving around is better.
* Your legs will not appreciate standing to begin with.
* Standing will not magically fix poor posture: talk with your chiropractor or better yet take up Yoga.
* Standing will not magically fix an ergonomically unsound workspace setup:
** Make sure that your monitors are the correct height - mid-screen at or slightly below eye level - keeping the head, neck and eyes in a neutral position.
** Note that the appropriate monitor height will change when standing.
** When typing and mousing your shoulders should be relaxed not hunched, wrists should be straight or angled slightly down but never bent back.
* Give your eye muscles a break by regularly looking away from the screen and gazing into the distance.
Easier - include an elevated chair so that the desk does not have to be adjusted. I read recently (within past six months) that walking for five minutes undoes the damage of an hour of sitting. I probably read it here, in fact. If we just take a five minute walk break every hour, it wouldn't be so bad. Personally, I gave up snacking while working (yes, another fat computer programmer, reformed) and drink water instead... which makes me have to go to the bathroom a lot, which gets me moving a lot.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
(i.e. circulatory problems, certain spinal issues, heart problems) for a different set of issues with standing desks (i.e. foot problems, different spinal issues, heart problems).
Those problems are very likely food and lifestyle issues and have nothing to do with sitting or standing while working on a keyboard.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
You're welcome to believe that, and I'll even admit that my memory may be inaccurate, but my recollection of the research I've seen ([citation needed], admittedly) is that they controlled for other factors, in particular food and lifestyle choices. Which is to say, there's no doubt that food and lifestyle have an impact in those areas, but the research also seems to indicate that there's no doubt that sitting/standing for too long can have an impact in those areas as well.
Just because one cause is more common than another does not mean that it is the sole cause.
Relevant: http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-...
I work from home a few days a week, and I've now had a standing workstation at home for about 2 months. I really can't justify (or afford) the cost of a commercial, height-adjustable rig, and they don't look substantial enough for me. I'm in my late forties, so after 2 and a half decades of sitting work, resulting in frequent, though minor, back pain at the end of the day, and particularly after the 1+hour commute to/from the office, so I thought I ought to try standing, and see if it helped. I certainly didn't want to invest £1,000 to just to try it out...
I had an old wooden computer desk in the garage, gathering dust, so I basically cut the legs down so can sit atop my normal work table, braced with some spare planks and G cramps. The work top is at my elbow height, and it's wide enough to accommodate two 24" LCD's. It's ugly and hackish, but functional and stable. I didn't buy any materials specifically for it, though - I just used wood and screws I had on hand.
So far, I've found that my back pain is far better, and I feel more flexible. The first week was less comfortable, as I obviously wasn't used to so much standing - I requisitioned one of the bar stools from the kitchen breakfast bar so I can sit or lean if I want to, but I'm doing that less and less these days. I'm now finding that the days in the office, where I have a standard, sitting workstation, are getting to be less and less comfortable.
Humans are rarely really still. Crocodiles beat us handily in that department (and in no-rules mixed martial arts too, but I digress). "Thinking hard" also causes lots of semi-voluntary movements.
When sitting, in a chair with back support - these same movements largely get restricted to neck, feet, arms from elbows till finger tips, slight weight shift along the bottom. When standing, new possibilities open up.
It is not unusual to see standing desk people moving feet around - this feet movement is 20 times more energy intensive than sitting feet movement because the feet are supporting much more weight. Same goes for small bends in knee and ankle joints. Arms are also now free to move much more, even backwards. Torso bends when standing are more energy intensive too. People are also motivated to not keep paper, pen, odds and ends very close to the place of work, but arrange it at some distance such that it is 2-3 small steps to fetch them rather than "making a long arm" that people typically do in a sitting desk.
So simply switching sitting to standing does switch sitting issues to standing issues, but while moving larger parts of the body more frequently. Circulation and calorie consumption increase.
And yes, as you too agree, mixing these up and adding some walking is even better.
Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
i watched an interview with linus torvalds where he showed off his programming walking desk (treadmill/desk combo).
i think that is the best solution and i'm planning to do the same for my new study (current one doesn't have enough room). he reckons a "zombie shuffling mode" aka walking at 1 mph is the top speed at which he can comfortably read, type and use mouse on his computer.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/l...
https://plus.google.com/+Linus...
Yup. I increased my water intake to about 4-5L per day. This means multiple times getting up to a) refill my water bottle. and b) going to the washroom.
I now stand up while surfing the Internet all day at home.
I an retired.
I stand up, because about a year ago I started to spontaneously bleed and found it very painful sitting down.
It was a pressure sore.
A lump developed under the skin as well as the bleeding.
I now stand at a computer desk with the laptop on top of my HP printer.
A bit high, and my bandaged feet are sore after 8 hours (don't ask), but better than the worry of GANGRENE.
It also puts an edge to your decisions, sitting down is more relaxing (unless you develop pressure sores), so you might be inclined to ignore problems you come across, or let insults go by.
Standing up to speak on a telephone, or now as it seems, muck about on the computer, leads to more alert mind that can respond to situations that you might make a wrong decision for, that you later regret.
I have always pushed my monitor as far away from my face as possible, so that I can rest my entire forearms flat on the desk (not just the wrists or elbows), to write, code, or mouse.
Also, I only use low-profile mice, meaning that my wrists are always resting on the desk's surface, not bridged to accommodate a high-backed mouse. This allows mousing by motion of the fingers alone. Track-pads are even better. Our wrists provide range of rotation and bending — they are not good for fine-motor control actions. Our fingers are for fine-motor dexterity actions, such as mousing: Mouse with your hand & fingers, not your wrists!
These two modifications have saved me from any discomforting symptoms after three decades of spending both work and free time in front of computers.
The rub is this approach is this:
* Back muscles need-not support the arms to mouse or type.
* Fore-arm muscles need not be used to mouse or type.
* With a laptop track-pad, you can do everything without ever lifting your wrists from rest on a surface.
The Result: No gorilla arm.