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How Bad User Interfaces Can Ruin Lives

Lauren Weinstein writes: A couple of months ago, in "Seeking Anecdotes Regarding 'Older' Persons' Use of Web Services," I asked for stories and comments regarding experiences that older users have had with modern Web systems, with an emphasis on possible problems and frustrations. I purposely did not define "older" — with the result that responses arrived from users (or regarding users) self-identifying as ages ranging from their 30s to well into their 90s (suggesting that "older" is largely a point of view rather than an absolute). Before I began the survey I had some preconceived notions of how the results would appear. Some of these were proven correct, but overall the responses also contained many surprises, often both depressing and tragic in scope. The frustration of caregivers in these contexts was palpable. They'd teach an older user how to use a key service like Web-based mail to communicate with their loved ones, only to discover that a sudden UI change caused them to give up in frustration and not want to try again. When the caregiver isn't local the situation is even worse. While remote access software has proven a great boon in such situations, they're often too complex for the user to set up or fix by themselves when something goes wrong, remaining cut off until the caregiver is back in their physical presence.

288 comments

  1. Therac 25 by Lehk228 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ever heard of a Therac 25?

    --
    Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    1. Re:Therac 25 by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      According to wikipedia, that had software problems that ended up killing people

      What's that got to do with UI changes and user experience?

    2. Re:Therac 25 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously people (or 'editors' if you don't classify them as people) don't try to get attention for merely "bad" stuff by trying to label it as "catastrophic." When you do that you Godwin yourself.

    3. Re:Therac 25 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The user interface of the THERAC-25 had a great deal to do with allowing the massive radiation overdoses to happen. For instance, the machine allegedly reported an error that could mean EITHER "radiation dose too high" or "radiation dose too low" to an operator, while indicating an underdose. The operator repeatedly told the machine to deliver more radiation, not knowing that the machine was actually delivering a massive overdose to the victim (who later died).

      http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~jdalbey/SWE/Papers/THERAC25.html

    4. Re:Therac 25 by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Informative

      What's that got to do with UI changes and user experience?

      Don't know about the Therac, but I've read of a number of cases where poor user interfaces resulted in warnings being ignored and medicine being given improperly. Presumably in order to 'protect' themselves the company had every little possibility throw a warning, to the point that they didn't have a 'I really mean it this time!' warning. Stuff like administering around 50 times the intended dose of an antibiotic to a person.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    5. Re:Therac 25 by hey! · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was working as a developer when the news of the Therac 25 problems broke, so I remember it well. You actually have it backwards; it wasn't bad UI design at all.

      The thing is mere functional testing of the user interface would not have revealed the flaw in the system. What happened is that people who used the system very day, day in and day out, became so fast at entering the machine settings the rate of UI events exceeded the ability of the custom monitor software written for the machine to respond correctly to them.

      If the UI was bad from a design standpoint the fundamental system engineering flaws of the system might never have been revealed.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    6. Re:Therac 25 by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Informative

      According to wikipedia, that had software problems that ended up killing people What's that got to do with UI changes and user experience?

      The original post was about bad user interfaces causing harm to people. Changes breaking the user experience was only one of the issues.

      In Therac's case the bug WAS primarily in the user interface:
        - Due to a race condition, if a button happened to be pressed at the wrong moment and the menu filled out in a particular order, the device would configure the electron beam for x-ray generation rather than electron beam generation (high electron beam current, no scanning) but not position the target, flattening filter, collimator, or ion-chamber x-ray sensor in the beamway, resulting in a configuration that irradiated the patient with beta radiation, rather than x-rays, at 100x a normal dose.)
        - The machine DID detect that there was a problem. But it reported it as "MALFUNCTION nn" - where nn was a number from 1 to 64 and not explained in the manual. If the operator entered "P" (proceed), it would then go ahead and operate in the improper mode anyhow.

      Both the second part and most of the first part sound like user interface problem to me.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    7. Re:Therac 25 by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What happened is that people who used the system very day, day in and day out, became so fast at entering the machine settings the rate of UI events exceeded the ability of the custom monitor software written for the machine to respond correctly to them.

      Which is still to some extent a UI issue.

      But the literal "killer" is what happened next:
        1) The machine detected that it had screwed up.
        2) But the UI reported this by a cryptic error message: "MALFUNCTION nn" - where the 1 = nn = 64 error codes not only weren't explanatory, but weren't even included in the manual.
        3) And if the operator hit "P" (for "proceed") the machine would GO AHEAD AND OPERATE in the known-to-be-broken mode, giving the patient a fatal (high-power, not-swept-around) electrons rather than a 100x weaker flood of x-rays, with NO FURTHER INDICATION that something is still wrong (unless you count the patient sometimes screaming and running out of the room.)

      If 2) and 3) aren't user interface problems, what is?

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    8. Re:Therac 25 by viperidaenz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A race condition in the software and counter overflows are not "Bad User Interfaces". They software defects. I'm pretty sure no one designed those bugs in to the code.

    9. Re:Therac 25 by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      2 was a documentation problem.
      Error code 54 was not in the documentation

      It appears to be an error code that was not possible, due to the software interlock system. Until there was a bug in the interlock system.

    10. Re:Therac 25 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, part of every crap interface is some techy geek thinking it is not the fault of the UI. So consider this the "tech geek says it ain't a UI problem" part of the problem.

    11. Re:Therac 25 by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 2

      When you mention Godwin, you Godwin yourself. It is the overused Godwin effect.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    12. Re:Therac 25 by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 2

      don't try to get attention for merely "bad" stuff by trying to label it as "catastrophic."

      Apparently a bad UI is what killed John Denver. Does that qualify?

    13. Re:Therac 25 by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A race condition in the software and counter overflows are not "Bad User Interfaces". They are software defects.

      In the case of Therac25, the bugs were triggered by a sequence of keystrokes that the UI programmer did not expect. The deaths were the result of a cascade of errors. The programmer was incompetent, and never should have been writing critical code. After the fatalities, the code was reviewed by experts, and they were horrified that such a mangled mess of spaghetti was controlling a lethal machine. The code was never reviewed by anyone, and there was no testing by anyone trained on QA, and no third party testing at all. Most importantly, the radiation shield and trigger were under full software control, with no mechanical interlocks. Even after the first reported deaths, they continued to insist that the software could not possibly be at fault, when an experienced engineer would consider a software bug to be the mostly likely explanation.

    14. Re:Therac 25 by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure no one designed those bugs in to the code.

      The parents of the current Firefox designers?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    15. Re: Therac 25 by TuringTest · · Score: 2

      Documentation is part of the overall UX design.

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
    16. Re:Therac 25 by doccus · · Score: 1

      A race condition in the software and counter overflows are not "Bad User Interfaces". They software defects. I'm pretty sure no one designed those bugs in to the code.

      Well, perhaps the article could also say "how bad summaries can ruin articles" , because the submission say nothing about "Bad" useer interfaces - quote: "Submission: UI Fail: How Our User interfaces Help to Ruin Lives" but at the top of the page "How Bad User Interfaces Can Ruin Lives".

    17. Re:Therac 25 by gzuckier · · Score: 2

      When you mention Godwin, you Godwin yourself. It is the overused Godwin effect.

      Given any sufficiently long exchange of comments on the Internet, the probability that someone will refer to Godwin's Law approaches unity.
      I call this the Hitler Effect.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    18. Re:Therac 25 by RockDoctor · · Score: 2

      The programmer was incompetent, and never should have been writing critical code.

      If it's "critical code," then no single programmer should have been working on it any way. At the very least, one should have been writing test modules for the other programmer's work, and neither of them having overall control of the system development. But that still allows a serious hole for group think in ... well, precisely the UI areas.

      It's a fair example. And as my colleague-who-shares-an-office-with-me likes to point out, "These rules are written in someone's blood."

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    19. Re:Therac 25 by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      I think I will use this.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    20. Re:Therac 25 by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      I think I will use this.

      you have my blessings. go forth and spread the word.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    21. Re:Therac 25 by missneht · · Score: 1

      I think 3) is problems with all levels of code from UI down to OS, UI should not give the 'P'roceed option, and the lower levels should not accept the proceed. Many years ago, around mid 80's I was modifying network security code to use a new disk drive that was being installed in the network computers, everything worked well until I wanted to test error return, the only way I could, was to power off the disk drive, the firmware for the disk drive reported that it successfully had written and read the drive, which of course it did not. I went to the person who wrote the firmware and told him, he said that it was a successful command because the command had been delivered to the gate. I told him users do not care if the command was delivered to the gate, they want to know if the data was written to the disk and if it was read, which he argued about but finally corrected his code to report errors on reading and writing. He did not fully follow the design in that the codes were supposed to be the same numbers as the previous disk drives, so existing code would report errors the same as previously, he condensed the error codes some, but at least it reported errors.

  2. pardon my french, but "duh" by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 2

    suggesting that "older" is largely a point of view rather than an absolute)

    Anyone without cognitive impairment or severe physical limitations can use most common user interfaces (which is definitely not to say they can't be made more usable and efficient).

    That includes many 70 year olds, and a fair number of 90 year olds.

    1. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by queazocotal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      'without cognitive impairment'.
      'cognitive impairment' is a hell of a lot more gradual than you think.

      For someone using computers a lot, they're probably going to figure it out.
      For someone not using computers a lot, and who have managed to do things by remembering exactly what to click - this is enormously fragile.
      Issues from 'I might break it' -> 'I might put it in a mode I don't understand how to get out of'

      Someone in this position may not be able to recover from an expanded list collapsing down to a tiny triangle on a mis-click, especially if this is a feature that they will never need.
      Or icons changing from ones they know, or menus moving around.

    2. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think a problem is the automatic assumption many young people make that the reason why an older person doesn't use something is because it's to complicated for someone older. I claim that this is largely false, and that the reason why older people don't use the technologies is because they suck, are intrusive, unreliable and fleeting.
      Young people are less critical, and seldom think long term (and when they do, they think a year is long term).

      Why should an old person learn to use (in rapid succession) CompuServe, AOL, Yahoo, LiveJournal, Myspace, Facebook, Flicker, Pinterest, Instagram (and so on and so on), instead of his relatives putting a little effort into hand written letters and face time?

    3. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Cognitive impairment, in this case, can be a state of mind. The "I never used those things and I have no desire to learn now" state, in particular.

      You might also factor in the "Yes, I can type, but do you know what arthritic finger and wrist joints actually feel like (you insensitive little f-er!)" factor, along with failing vision, hearing, and a general lack of experience with the read-type-read mode of conversation.

      You know, 70 years from now, they'll be sitting in old folks homes trying to get the codgers off their texting pads and talking to people in the room, for a change, and those old coots will be just as stubborn and self-injurious as old people today.

    4. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well that may be so. But as you get older you get less patient with people wasting your time.

      Let's say you're 90 years old. You're using a webmail system which does everything you need it to do. Then some manager has a brainwave and suddenly all the functions are somewhere else. How much of the 3.99 years the actuarial tables say you've got left do you want to spend dealing with that?

      It's not just 90 year-olds. Take a poll of working-age users and find out how many like the MS Office Ribbon; how many people are cool with the regular UI reshuffling that takes place in Windows just to prove you're paying your upgrade fee for software that's "new"?

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    5. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by cb88 · · Score: 1

      I have a 60 something year old aunt... she uses Yahoo mail.... every few months I get a call from her about not being able to figure out how to get the mail client into the right 3 pane view. She used to be a telephone operator up until the 90's can can follow instructions well... but when there is so much on the screen it can be very hard to process it all to even find what she is looking for when she knows what it is... and just can't place WHERE it is in the UI.

      These calls mostly occur when a) browser changes due to upgrading itself, b) AT&T/yahoo decides to tweak their UI to fit in more ads c) random computer problem that is just making it not work well and frustrating to use.

      I look forward to the developments Andy Tanenbaum is making to help with the random computer problems though fault tolerance and smarter recovery.. but a) and b) are real problems too.

    6. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by queazocotal · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Especially if computers are not your life, but something you want to - say - weekly - write letters on.
      Once you drop the frequency you're doing something, learning gets lots harder, even for the young.

    7. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by MrKrillls · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I despise the ribbon. For that and many similar reasons I dumped all msft products. I realized that my dislike of the Windows products exceeded the pain of walking away from projects I had put a lot of work (and money) into. I'm not doctrinaire about it. I have recently tried the Win8 family. I'll take a look at 10. I give Msft credit that they appear to really be listening to customers now. But I have moved on to Linux and like it more and more - and the bar for Windows getting me back is getting higher.

      --
      Don't step on the baby.
    8. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heck - just look at the screen you are reading this on ... /.'s interface sucks the big one as do almost all other UI efforts today. My take on it is a combination of loss of "... we did it that way 20 years ago and it didn't work then either" knowledge along with people who see job security in changing something every other month. Even the mighty Apple has fallen prey to this - remember "Inside Macintosh" and almost a full volume on user interface standards and what to do and not to do?

    9. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Darinbob · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The interfaces do suck. I can help out my mother, not because I'm smarter, but because I've learned to deal with the idiocy that's out there and understand some of the obtuse terms being used. I deal with crappy stuff all day long, she doesn't.

      Most recent example: her email lost her address book and send buttons. Basically that toolbar vanished. Don't know how it happened, probably some obscure key sequence she hit by mistake. So I have to go to the menu (this being Thunderbird it hasn't yet removed menus in the asinine way that Firefox did), find the way to change the view, look at which toolbars are active, click on "message" in my guess that these buttons were on the message toolbar and not the mail toolbar. Not hard but completely obtuse to someone not versed in how UIs are done.

      Next problem in the same phone call: it wasn't showing all her email. 15 unread messages that it didn't seem to display or download. This one had me stumped actually for a bit. Turns out she had accidentally clicked on one of the filtering buttons at the top of the list. It is not at all obvious what has happened, or what these buttons do. But click on one and it only shows messages that match its filter (she had clicked the one to show only messages from those in her address book). Now if there should be ANY menu bar that should have to option to be disabled, it is that completely optional one, not the one containing the button to let you send a message.

      To really make this hard, Mozilla is changing their UI all the time, without warning, without consulting with users, with devs thinking they know what's best for the entire world. Leave the UI alone, and stop being actively hostile to the user.

      Thankfully, I've got TeamViewer which makes remote control easy. I recommend it. You need the other end to have broadband though or it'd be too slow.

    10. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by sjames · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't forget visual impairment. They may be depending on the splat looking thing next to the red thing being the send button. Move it and good luck.

    11. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Cramer · · Score: 2

      That's ok, just make it all work like Facebook. That seems to be the standard progression of every app on every device on the market today.

    12. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I still don't know how to use Word. Luckily I don't have to. But I've dealt with enough user interfaces that I can muddle my way through them and eventually get something done. Occasionally I get something so screwed up that I can't recover (or I never even learn that there's a shortcut bar so never notice that it's missing). I've learned to think about all the stupid ways that stuff could be done. I switch between different UIs and operating systems all the time.

      A key point though which distinguishes me from a senior citizen who can't figure out computers, is that I experiment. My mother is always worried about clicking on something unfamiliar, because she thinks that it may screw stuff up and it will be a big headache to try to sort it out. WHICH IS TRUE, because it does screw things up! Her mouse clicks aren't always accurate so she does click on the wrong things sometimes and it's a mess (I have this happen to me when I'm forced to use a touchpad on a laptop and end up accidentally clicking while trying to drag). So computers have taught her to beware of doing the wrong thing or she will be sorry! Computers are punishing the users and creating negative reinforcement.

      Users are being conditioned to not experiment, but at the same time the interfaces are changing every few months!

      I think every software team that creates a UI needs to hire a few 80 year olds for the QA group.

    13. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      FaceTime is easy, the icon and the interface hasn't changed much since its introduction.

    14. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Because letters take ages to arrive, even longer these days as postal services are cutting delivery days due to low volume.
      Kids these days have horrible handwriting too.

    15. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not just computers. Plastic measuring cups have their sizes in raised plastic numbers, almost impossible to see. Packages, even for staple foods, are really hard to open. Printed instructions are in really small font. And on and on.

      I wish there was a culture of designers taking their work home to their mothers and grandmothers to see how their stuff operates in the real world. Also, every CEO should be required to call in to their company's telephone support system, use the menu, and listen to the hold music -- over their cell phones while they drive (or are driven ) to work. (Not to mention legislators being required to go to the DMV, etc., etc.) Things would change real fast...

    16. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by russotto · · Score: 4, Funny

      You know, 70 years from now, they'll be sitting in old folks homes trying to get the codgers off their texting pads and talking to people in the room, for a change, and those old coots will be just as stubborn and self-injurious as old people today.

      Jethro(on his pad): Mabel, that damn nurse is trying to get me to look up and speak out loud again. I don't know why, it hurts my neck to raise it, you're deaf as a post anyway, and I know your puss hasn't changed since the last time I saw it, except maybe to get another wrinkle.

      Mabel(on her pad): Yeah, I don't know why they can't let us send IMs. But maybe you better make an effort. Didn't you say they threatened to turn off the network if we didn't all talk sometime? I don't know what I'd do without the IM network.

      Jethro: Don't worry about that. I had my grandson bring in my old equipment last time he visited. These pads are running on IPv4 over 802.11b on a plug-in router I've got hidden in the closet. No one in the current generation will even know where to look.

    17. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by ultranova · · Score: 2

      Why should an old person learn to use (in rapid succession) CompuServe, AOL, Yahoo, LiveJournal, Myspace, Facebook, Flicker, Pinterest, Instagram (and so on and so on), instead of his relatives putting a little effort into hand written letters and face time?

      Because those handwritten letters and face time are going to become a chore very soon, and chores have a tendency to be "forgotten", especially when they only exist in the first place because their benefactee is too lazy to invest into learning modern communication methods.

      If you make it hard for other people to stay in contact, they probably won't bother.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    18. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      Three to four days, like always. I send stuff all the time.

    19. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by secretsquirel · · Score: 0

      My dad has also had his send button vanish on more than one occasion. WTF Mozilla?

    20. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      not like always, just 10 years ago it was 2 days.

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    21. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      It's a hard problem. On the one hand, changing stuff around sucks for real people trying to do real things without screwing real things up. On the other hand, new functionality has to be introduced into the UI in some manner.

      We can't just say "don't change where this is", because there may not be enough room to accommodate a new function without adjusting the location of other items. I couldn't add a new chair to my living room without rearranging some of the existing furniture.

      We can't just say "don't add the new functionality" if our customers demand it.

      One option is for the user to only upgrade if he is willing to sacrifice a bit of learning to accommodate the new feature. The user would still want bug fixes, so now you have more versions to maintain.

      An option is to hide all new features away behind a menu (e.g. hamburger) or some other catch-all location. But then users may not find the new feature and your competitors could gain an edge.

      Heck, competitors can gain an edge just by bringing something cooler and more modern to the table.

      It's a tough problem, and I'm sure the answer feels more like hitting a sweet spot than a mathematical proof.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    22. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      OK, then explain the Sturm Und Drang that accompanies every thread here about changes in any software.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    23. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      A letter or postcard from Sweden takes 3 days to the US and 4 to Australia. And yes, I send them. (YMAPSMV.)

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    24. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you regard staying in touch with your family as a "chore", just say so--but don't use the medium as an excuse.

      When you and they are oceans apart, having something that your mom, dad, or kid physically touched/made/wrote/sent can mean quite a lot to some of us.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    25. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by arth1 · · Score: 1

      FaceTime is easy, the icon and the interface hasn't changed much since its introduction.

      Oh, the icon has changed quite a lot over the decades, but it's still recognizable.

    26. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by arth1 · · Score: 1

      A few decades ago, e-mail often took days, with nightly batch jobs pushing the mail another hop.
      (I still have one system that delivers e-mail through UUCP)

    27. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by dcollins117 · · Score: 1

      As main tech support person for my mother, I certainly can sympathize and whole-heartedly recommend Teamviewer or the equivalent. Part of the problem is she doesn't have the vocabulary to describe what her problems are. She'll use the word "download" as a placeholder for some concept she doesn't fully grasp and I know now when I see that word I could substitute virtually any other english word in it's place and achieve the same meaning. This is where spending a few minutes on Teamviewer becomes invaluable. I can figure out quickly the exact nature of the problem she is experiencing.

      One interesting thing I learned from watching her interaction with the mouse is that if she clicks on something and doesn't get the expected result within a fraction of a second she'll click it again, only harder. Or multiple times. What I find most interesting about that is that's exactly what I have to do to get my air conditioner to turn on and off. It has these faulty flat panel buttons that sometimes don't make contact until I go to absurdly extreme lengths of banging and pleading with it to work properly.

      I think some enterprising engineer should design a pressure sensitive mouse so when you press really hard or in rapid succession it means "I really mean to do this, do it NOW!

    28. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      I have this happen to me when I'm forced to use a touchpad on a laptop and end up accidentally clicking while trying to drag

      And THIS is why trackpoints (AKA "nipples") are superior to touchpads. Far superior, actually.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    29. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by umafuckit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You've exactly described my mother's experience with computers. She's been like this for years. Since her 40s. She just memorizes sequence of actions and if anything's changed she is stuck. I don't know what the issue is, as she's smart otherwise. After two years of computer use I realized she still didn't even know about copy and paste. It's taken me about two or three years to get her to use that functionality and she's still not competent with it. I'd love to know why this is so hard for her.

    30. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I could substitute virtually any other english word in it's place

      Have you tried substituting its in its place?

      .

    31. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Trax3001BBS · · Score: 1

      The interfaces do suck. I can help out my mother, not because I'm smarter, but because I've learned to deal with the idiocy that's out there and understand some of the obtuse terms being used. I deal with crappy stuff all day long, she doesn't.

      To really make this hard, Mozilla is changing their UI all the time, without warning, without consulting with users, with devs thinking they know what's best for the entire world. Leave the UI alone, and stop being actively hostile to the user.

      Thankfully, I've got TeamViewer which makes remote control easy. I recommend it. You need the other end to have broadband though or it'd be too slow.

      My Mom (82 yrs) confused me for years saying her Internet didn't work, I'd check her system and it worked fine yet still she complained. One day it clicked she meant her E-mail.

      She was very active with a web based E-mail system, through changes of IP's and interfaces she got lost, that she can't remember much anymore doesn't of course help a bit.

      I had set her up with Forte's Agent E-mailer to POP3 her E-mail long ago but due to other advice she never used it. Sad really as she could of moved it from Windows system to Windows systems and it act the same with no loss of anything. Even version 1.93 (it's up to 7 now) is still useable by using Stunnel for SSL, and my choice as an E-mailer.

    32. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by stephanruby · · Score: 1

      ...instead of his relatives putting a little effort into hand written letters and face time?

      Handwritten letters don't do squat if the older person can't read them anymore, or can't use their right hand to write anymore because of nerve damage.

      At least, computers can be upgraded and molded to some degree (even that too is not enough).

    33. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      In seventy years we'll probably still be running IPv4 - with a quadruple-level NAT between the end users and the few datacenters where the precious addresses are allocated.

    34. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      Touchpads are great, but only after I disable the tap-to-click function. Trackpoints suck for me because they are either slow or imprecise (for me). A trackball would be nice, but nobody makes laptops with them anymore.

    35. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by byornski · · Score: 1

      Hell, occasionally I am stuck in interfaces where I want to exit the selections and do nothing. (Hail emacs) Quite a lot of the UIs that people dream up do not follow any logic

    36. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A key point though which distinguishes me from a senior citizen who can't figure out computers, is that I experiment.

      I'm sure you didn't mean it, but that sentence comes across as incredibly patronising. The rest of what you say is actually pretty accurate though, so I'll forgive.

    37. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by eulernet · · Score: 1

      What you wrote reminds me of the difference between monochronic and polychronic cultures:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      We are all both polychronic and monochronic at various degree in our lives.
      Pehraps you mother values relationships, so abstract interfaces go against her interests.
      To simplify her life, you should try to use large icons with people on them, doing various actions.
      It'll be probably less abstract for her, since she memorizes what she can, so she's limited to her knowledge, while you are limited by your curiosity.

      Oh, and the young designers are so proud of their level of abstraction, that it goes against basic usability.

    38. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by war4peace · · Score: 1

      There is this corporate thing called theoretical fast.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    39. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful
      On the other hand, new functionality has to be introduced into the UI in some manner.

      The whole point of this subject is no the fuck it doesn't.

      Now options may possibly need to be offered as an option to those who might choose them. The rest of us want the gas pedal to stay in the same place in every car on the planet.

      User interfaces are not computer games. They are a means to control something, and with the advent of the internet, probably something not even imagined by the UI designer. Would you advocate having a bunch of graphics arts students come in the factory and move the controls on industrial machine tools in their "industrial design" class every Thursday? Leaving the controls in a random position, and omitting the odd "emergency stop" button?

      No, if it works, don't fix it

      There is no reason why new user interfaces should not be designed, or old ones improved, but no way on earth that this should ever happen to an existing user other than at his explicit request. EVER!!!!!!!!! and it needs a review and automatic undo facility like when you change the screen resolution and if you don't confirm (cos you can't read the message, or find the undo button because it is in blue and on a blue background) it undoes by itself.

      If you employ UI designers, you should realise these people make a living from fucking with UIs, and need to be restrained - quite possibly in a padded cell for their own protection.

      Signed

      Somone who was exposed to Unity and Lollipop.

    40. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Had a similar problem with Outlook the CEO company kept losing the send button. Eventually I figured it out if instead of clicking on send he accidentally did a mouse drag the toolbar would pop out. The toolbar, now floating, has a convenient x to close, which he would then click - I never did figure out to lock the tool bars.

    41. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      I have emailed a whole bunch of TV dinner manufacturers explaing that if someone is going to eat the dinner, they first need to read the instructions, and if you print them in 75DPI resolution using 6 point type, in white on yellow, then this is unlikely to happen. Given that there is masses of space around the instructions, it would be easy to enlarge the print, and a change of colour might improve the contrast from 7/4 against.

      Some of them reply politely.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    42. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      Anyone without cognitive impairment or severe physical limitations can use most common user interfaces

      TFA isn't arguing about whether it's possible for people to use these interfaces, it claims that the use obscure metaphors and confusing design to the point that many users feel it's just not worth the bother.

      Software/UI authors may believe that their app is the best thing in the world. They may think they've got a great system for getting all 32,767 functions within 3 clicks of the landing page, but this may only be true for people with 60+ hours experience using the software. Here's your first hint: a grey-on-grey list of star, clipboard, privates' stripe, arrow, and doghouse could either be a status display of several inactive features, all disabled, or it could an iconic menu. It's exactly as usable as a list of "M B P D H," meaning useful only as a mnemonic after you know what each button does.

      There are a stunning number of "modern" GUIs that are exactly as usable as Emacs. Seriously: 3 horizontal lines - WTF is someone supposed to know that means the same as down-caret (unless the down-caret just toggles between horizontal caret) or as "solar eclipse" (unless "solar eclipse" means run calculations)?

      Modern GUIs are more about fashion than function, and if you haven't been following the fashion, then you may not realize that "Menu" has changed from a set of nested horizontal lines to just three identical horizontal lines. You may not realize that last year's "Wrench" for options has changed to this year's "Gear" for the same function. It's not about age - a lot of users are going to upgrade, this year, from Windows XP and IE8 to Windows 10 and Chrome - skipping 10 years of fashion changes. It's culture shock.

    43. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by tburkhol · · Score: 1

      It's not just computers. Plastic measuring cups have their sizes in raised plastic numbers, almost impossible to see.

      But the meaning of numbers stamped on a measuring cup is intuitively obvious, and the stamped/molded numbers will last as long as the cup. Painted numbers flake off and add a whole extra step to the manufacturing process, dramatically increasing the cost. Stamped numbers on a measuring cup is a valid decision based on manufacturing constraints. Choosing grey-on-grey, or blue-on-blue (hello, microsoft) for icons and text is 100% arbitrary. It's just as easy to use yellow-on-purple, black-on-white, or red-on-green. Some choices are pretty, some are ugly, some are visible, and some are not. You choose among them only for cosmetic and usability reasons, and grey-on-grey sacrifices usability to cosmesis.

    44. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My 75yo mom is exactly the same way, she learns everything computer and electronic device related strictly by rote. I fear the day that I start thinking the same way.

    45. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Yes but they still suck.
      Low contrast displays suck. Grey on Grey? Really?
      A UI should be easy to use first and look good second. Ello is a good example of the reverse. We should think of older folks as canaries in the coal mine. They are more sensitive to bad UI design than someone like me. Heck I use Vi, I think Windows 7, KDE, GNOME, Unity, and OS/X are all easy to use so I am not a good test subject for UIs but all the things they mentioned are things that tick me off.
      The other thing young people have to remember is that someone that is 70 may only have 5 to 30 good years left. A 20 year old has 60 to 80 good years left. Learning the latest cool thing may not be worth the time for them.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    46. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      Most of your rant was already addressed:

      We can't just say "don't add the new functionality" if our customers demand it.

      I wasn't advocating for screwing with the UI just to screw with it, or justifying some guy's salary. Go back and read... my entire post was based on adding new functionality as required by the user.

      but no way on earth that this should ever happen to an existing user other than at his explicit request. EVER!!!!!!!!!

      What if most of your users want the new feature, but a few don't? That's the conundrum. Like I said, you have options. You can maintain each and every new version separately, releasing bug fixes and security updates for each one so that the user never needs to see a new UI. You can upset users who want quick and easy access to new functionality by placing the new function deep in a menu so the layout doesn't have to change. Again, those options exist but perhaps are not the best business decision.

      It's not about whether adding new functionality is OK. It's about how to do the hard thing, giving some users the new feature they want while maintaining familiarity for users who value that aspect more than the new functionality.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    47. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      she thinks that it may screw stuff up and it will be a big headache to try to sort it out.

      I always get this question "how do you know how to fix this?" I always answer the same way. "because I have already screwed it up and thought of 50 ways you have thought of screwing it up I am a big screw up, and I know the magic website google.com". My sister called all the time to get her computer fixed. Until one day she sat there watching what I was doing. "Your just clicking around to see what changes" "yeah I told you that". Have not had 1 'fix my computer' from her in at least 15 years now. She now uses what I call 'the fix it method'. I thought of getting that funny flowchart for a t-shirt. :) https://xkcd.com/627/

    48. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      It's often a good policy with GUI to say 'change is bad'.
      Change in itself is bad, so you better have a very good reason so that the improvements of new interface make the change worthwhile.
      This does mean a lot of changes have to wait or are abandoned altogether, and it means existing shortcomings are deliberately left in the program.
      It's a balancing act. Is this improvement important enough for people to go through a process of adaptation to it?

      Then again, I would not call fixes 'change'. If a fix doesn't change the intended logic of GUI, if it doesn't cause the program to behave different from expectation, then it's just a fix.

    49. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      she uses Yahoo mail.... every few months I get a call from her about not being able to figure out how to get the mail client into the right 3 pane view.

      You could try switching her to an actual e-mail client and use Yahoo over POP/IMAP, but that comes with it's own quirks.

    50. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by HideyoshiJP · · Score: 1

      That's why you buy yourself a nice Pyrex (or similar) measuring cup. Can't help the paint flaking off, though.

    51. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Here's your first hint: a grey-on-grey list of star, clipboard, privates' stripe, arrow, and doghouse could either be a status display of several inactive features, all disabled, or it could an iconic menu. It's exactly as usable as a list of "M B P D H," meaning useful only as a mnemonic after you know what each button does.

      Don't forget the "paper airplane" for "share" What is with "all the flat and grey" these days?

      Seriously: 3 horizontal lines - WTF is someone supposed to know that means the same as down-caret (unless the down-caret just toggles between horizontal caret) or as "solar eclipse" (unless "solar eclipse" means run calculations)?
      Modern GUIs are more about fashion than function, and if you haven't been following the fashion, then you may not realize that "Menu" has changed from a set of nested horizontal lines to just three identical horizontal lines.

      I think the 3 horizontal lines comes from the Android "Menu" button.

    52. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's an entirely social problem. People believe that it's acceptable and even endearing to be willfully ignorant of and incompetent with technology. It's the equivalent of people deciding that not knowing how to read is acceptable if you have green eyes and then going "aw shucks" whenever they have to read something.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    53. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      you better have a very good reason so that the improvements of new interface make the change worthwhile

      Agreed. My concern was all these threads here (including the AC who responded to mine) that act as if there is never a good reason to change UI, ever. Sometimes it's necessary even after you consider that "change is bad".

      Sometimes the boss says "Competitor Corp. has released a slick new UI that puts the most used functions front-and-center. You must change our UI to be more competitive. If you don't, feel free to take your things and I'll find someone who will."

      And frankly, both situations are legitimate. Paying too much attention to the minority of users who can't adapt to change might kill your business in the long run. (And for the moment, consider only software changes that are not life-threatening.)

      So, how do we deal in those situations?

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    54. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apple notebooks have a touchpad that click instead of tap, I don't like tap-to-click either, but Apple touchpads work well,

    55. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish there was a culture of designers taking their work home to their mothers and grandmothers to see how their stuff operates in the real world.

      That costs money. And your grandmother is not the target demographic. If it costs more to support a market segment than the revenue potential, that segment will be ignored. In some cases there may be an incentive to actively discourage those potential (ab)users from using the product. So sorry, but that's life.

    56. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "can use most common user interfaces"

      I am fifty, computer programmer, and sometimes have difficulty using an interface designed by a 20-something web designer who gives priority on using the latest features than doing something ergonomic: Simplicity requires much more intelligence than colourful bells and whistles.

      On top of that what I really hate are frequent and useless changes of a perfectly working UI which gradually becomes more obscure, slow and confusing, jjst for the pleasure of the same unskilled web-designer, and his manager. They are wasting my time and my money.

      The article suggested:

      "I would like to see major Web services commit themselves to the proposition of providing optional and easily enabled "basic interfaces" to their main services, alongside the existing "primary" interfaces."

      This frequently exists and is the *.mobi web site which very often exists in parallel to the "real" one (The useless, ugly and slow interface, with tons of HTML5 and Javascript)

      "Anyone without cognitive impairment or severe physical limitations can use most common user interfaces"

      This is as arrogant as saying that anyone can use a cpommand-line interface (Which personnaly I prefer for their concision and stability, but would not like to force other people to use)

    57. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Winter · · Score: 1

      Same with my wife.

      This despite she's been using computers in various jobs since the 80's.

      And that is actually the problem. At the time the computer systems changed slowly, if at all (major undertaking changing the system), and they were basically told to do things a certain way or things would break.

      --
      main(i){putchar(177663314>>6*(i-1)&63|!!(i<5)<<6)&&main(++i);}
    58. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Had similar problems with my Mum, 89 years. These constant changes of interface, obscure error messages, fragile menus, useless options made her suffer a lot. Got a huge hatred for these arrogant "UI-artists" changing things at their fantasy.

      Finally I bought her a specific computer designed for the elderly : Ordissimo . Simple menus, only the important options are there , nothing "suddenly disappears" etc... Honestly very convenient even for a computer litterate.

    59. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by anagama · · Score: 1

      For someone using computers a lot, they're probably going to figure it out.
      For someone not using computers a lot, and who have managed to do things by remembering exactly what to click - this is enormously fragile.

      Even for people who do use computers a lot. I recently got a new macbook pro with Yosemite on it. I've been sticking with Snow Leopard because it seems so much better, but now that isn't an option. Yesterday I touched the touchpad in some way that made the computer go into some sort of mode in which I couldn't interact with any of the windows. I tried escape, random touchpad stuff, some other things. I'm embarrassed to say that I finally just resorted to a hard shutdown and reboot. There is apparently some cryptic touchpad sequence that will put the computer into useless mode, and a cryptic sequence required to get out of useless mode (and for what -- the view was just like normal view except for a darkened 1/4" frame around the whole screen -- it wasn't expose or full desktop -- I have no idea WTF it was for, normal view without the ability to interact with anything at all, not even force quit menu). Yosemite makes me seriously consider just putting Debian on that computer.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    60. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      You take those filthy words back!

    61. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by tinkerton · · Score: 1

      I suppose, it's important to acknowledge that there's a solid negative aspect to every change. But you're juggling with a lot of factors and it may happen you have to trade off that value a lot of the time. And it may happen that in the end all your decisions are the same than if you'd just completely ignored the change aspect. But in practice a bunch of small changes will be delayed or omitted because they don't add enough value.

      I think the bulk of the compromises are often elsewhere: investing a lot in new features and too little in stabilizing and improving what exists.

    62. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by Xaedalus · · Score: 1

      thank you for posting the link above... i learned something new i can apply directly at work. this is why i go to /. in spite of beta... because these discussion threads often hold concepts that i had no fucking clue about (like a working caps key for instance... thank you, wonky usb keyboard!) but radically change my understanding of reality.

      --
      Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    63. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She's probably a strongly-expressed Myers-Briggs Sensor. (Google "Sensing versus Intuition").

    64. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by anagama · · Score: 1

      see if she'll switch to something like this:

      https://www.openmailbox.org/

      The webmail client is very clean and to the point. Pretty sure there are no ads too, but it's been a while since I used it.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    65. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by eulernet · · Score: 1

      Monochrony/polychrony is very useful if you work with different cultures at your work.

      If you want some other concepts useful at work, read this:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      and search for its counterpart "Köhler effect"

    66. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by camperdave · · Score: 1

      The rest of us want the gas pedal to stay in the same place in every car on the planet.

      Question, if I may: In left hand drive vehicles in North America, the gas pedal is closest to the center of the vehicle, operated by the right foot. What happens in right hand drive vehicles like those in the UK? Is the gas pedal still operated by the right foot, or are the controls reversed so that the gas pedal is operated by the left foot?

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    67. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by MrKrillls · · Score: 1

      "I think some enterprising engineer should design a pressure sensitive mouse so when you press really hard or in rapid succession it means "I really mean to do this, do it NOW!" Or, perhaps a UX designer should have his shock collar activated momentarily?

      --
      Don't step on the baby.
    68. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      Yes, I also like trackballs. I have (somewhere) an old laptop with a trackball - it has Windows 3.1 installed, just so you get the idea of the vintage. The only problem with trackballs is that they seemed to get broken rather quickly. They'd start jamming up and using them would be extremely unpleasant.

      Funnily though, as much as I like trackballs, I find them much slower to use than trackpoints. Different folks, different strokes.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    69. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      It's not just computers. Plastic measuring cups have their sizes in raised plastic numbers, almost impossible to see.

      Though Devil's Advocate on this one -- what are you going to do? If you print them, the print will wear off. Somehow 'printing' them in different colored plastic makes them cost more.

      I wish there was a culture of designers taking their work home to their mothers and grandmothers to see how their stuff operates in the real world.

      *I* think they're way too expensive, and don't benefit me.. but this is SORT of what Nest (now owned by Google) seems to be doing, even though they're ALSO doing the "high tech gee whiz" thing.

    70. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by cb88 · · Score: 1

      I would but... she has already been using yahoo mail since forever... so the occasional phone call or stop by her house isn't so bad. If I switched her over to a mail client I would have to maintain that in addition to her browser which is basically all I have to make sure keeps working at this point.

    71. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Nah. I had the same question until I rented a "ute" in Australia (I had never bothered to look or ask on my first trip). The gas is on the right, brake is to the left, clutch is to the left of that. The shifting lever is still between the driver and the passenger. The awkward part, for me, was getting used to driving on the wrong side of the road first. That took a minute. The next, and only other remaining, awkward part was shifting with my left hand. I am used to driving off-road, some was required for my journey there as well, and was fully trained to operate a vehicle in those conditions (my MOS was 3505, I drove in the motor pool). However, my brain just did not want to function with that last little bit. I stalled out a couple of times even - just from it being odd. Worse, I missed gears for the first two hours or so. I was 'okay' after that and I was downright used to it by the end of my journey. The toilet does not flush in the opposite direction either. They say it does because of the water jets and not the Coriolis (spelling?) effect. However, not one of the toilets that I noticed, and I drank - a lot, flushed backwards. Or I was very drunk. Actually, both may be true.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    72. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by khellendros1984 · · Score: 2

      Go back and read... my entire post was based on adding new functionality as required by the user.

      The confusion may have come in because that's the exact opposite of what the original article is about (that is, you mention the users that require change, rather than the ones that require stability). That brings up the point that there are dueling requirements; some users implicitly require the interface to stay exactly the same, even at the cost of not introducing new functionality. Other users explicitly require new functionality to be added, even at the cost of relearning a new interface. We need ways to serve both demographics.

      What if most of your users want the new feature, but a few don't?

      Well, Firefox allows a fair amount of UI customization. Some websites do, as well. I also like the idea of a "basic", "lite", or "classic" interface, where the most common functions are easily available and don't change around much, along with an "advanced" (but less stable) interface that gives easier access to all the bells and whistles.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    73. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by KGIII · · Score: 1

      It could be worse. My dad, I am old - he is ANCIENT, seems to think he is a Computer Science Security Engineer. He's got firewalls, AV programs, everything disabled, has to click a setting each time to do anything online - multiple settings often but always at least one per page - and then shuts off the desktop background because it "eats system resources." He knows just enough to be a pain in the ass, not even dangerous, just a pain in the ass.

      "Why won't this work?"
      "You have blocked port 80, disabled JavaScript and Flash, have your AV settings to scan everything - even web links you are not going to visit, have your firewall also blocking all scripts, have turned your user level into that with less privileges than a guest, and you really want to know why it does not work?"
      "My computer is slow."
      "I just bought you an eight core i7 for Christmas. It has a 250 GB SSD, a 3 TB SATA HDD, Windows 7 Ultimate, Office Professional (that you do not use but insisted I order even though I have an MSDN subscription), and 16 GB of RAM. Maybe you should try disabling the desktop themes along with your removal of the background. That will help."
      "You're an ass."
      "Stop blacklisting anything with a colon in the URL."

      Those might be slightly embellished. Slightly... Gotta love him. I am going down to spend next week with him. It is summer so he is up here in Maine and close by. I toddle him off to the retirement community outside of Panama City Beach, FL when it starts getting cold. At least there he can catch the women, they have walkers and he's surprisingly fast for an old man. Kind of like a snapping turtle. The person who put a turtle logo to mean slow on a lawn mower has never tried to move a snapping turtle out of the road.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    74. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by bondsbw · · Score: 1

      The confusion may have come in because that's the exact opposite of what the original article is about

      Of course it is. If I was just saying the same thing the article said, and that everyone else is saying, I might as well have not said anything.

      Well, Firefox allows a fair amount of UI customization. Some websites do, as well.

      Agreed, as a user this is my preferred approach as well.

      One difficulty here is that the more a user can customize the interface, the more effort it is to build new features in a discoverable way.

      Another problem is how much effort it takes to actually build the capability to customize it. My old team spent quite some time designing and building a customizable interface for just one small, tiny piece of an enterprise application. Then our customer wanted things to be so different that even that interface had to be completely scrapped. Talk about time wasted, but in my opinion, it wasn't worth it even if it went to production... practically nobody would actually customize it in the real world, just that one manager guy who doesn't even actually use the software. (That's just an anecdote, YMMV obviously.)

      I also like the idea of a "basic", "lite", or "classic" interface, where the most common functions are easily available and don't change around much, along with an "advanced" (but less stable) interface that gives easier access to all the bells and whistles.

      This is definitely an approach to consider. Of course then you get users who loved the advanced interface, but never want it to change. So then you have "classic", "advanced", and "v1 advanced". Next thing you know, you add "v2 advanced" and so on.

      Nevertheless, these are options definitely worth considering.

      --
      All my liberal friends think I'm a conservative, all my conservative friends think I'm a liberal.
    75. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by khellendros1984 · · Score: 1

      Apple notebooks also don't have separate buttons. They click, but they're also integrated into the touchpad. Other than that, they're very nice.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    76. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Businesses also have to consider how much money they're going to get out of their customers (or they could go bankrupt, I guess). Somebody who wants everything to stay the same is unlikely to want to pay for anything, since that would represent change.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    77. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is really horse-shit.
      My wife has early onset of a neuro-degenerative disease and she can only do things that she has done many times before and recently.
      So activities that are obvious to anyone in normal health, like drop-down menu options hidden behind clickable arrows are deadly for her.

      So for her, these failures are not a cutesy affectation but a routine reminder that she is dying.

    78. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you employ UI designers, you should realise these people make a living from fucking with UIs

      Not entirely; If they're good they should know when not to fuck with something. UI designers aren't supposed to move things that don't need to be moved - and they SHOULD know that. Additionally, designers need to cater to the whims of management; sometimes requirements are handed down, and the designer has little choice but to implement. Sure, they can raise objections, but those can be ignored. I'm sure Microsoft's designers were well aware of many of the Windows 8 limitations, especially after the feedback given to the beta versions, but they weren't calling all the shots.

    79. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My father, an ex-engineer/programmer who used to build his own computers, has Parkinson's Disease with dementia.

      He was using WinXP on an old box, and had installed a bunch of trojans and malware without realizing what he was doing. So I tried to upgrade him to something more secure (to protect his banking info).

      Windows 7 was out, because it looked different and he couldn't figure out where stuff was.

      Windows 8 made him gasp in horror when I showed it to him at the store.

      We finally settled on an iPad, but he's barely able to use it. I once caught him trying to use a "WinXP for seniors" book to learn it, and he couldn't tell that he wasn't on an XP machine at all. Showing him how to use Siri made his jaw drop in astonishment.

      What he wants/needs is XP, because he learned it before the dementia set in, but there is no secure way to give that experience back to him.

    80. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Meh, they probably import their toilets from Northern hemisphere manufacturers.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    81. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      suggesting that "older" is largely a point of view rather than an absolute)

      Anyone without cognitive impairment or severe physical limitations can use most common user interfaces (which is definitely not to say they can't be made more usable and efficient).

      That includes many 70 year olds, and a fair number of 90 year olds.

      As somebody with a techie mentality, a love for instrumentation, and a success record with interpreting software UIs correctly and using them successfully for several decades, I gotta admit I am baffled by the current generation, something I thought I'd never say. All these apps "kids" (even literally) just pick up and use immediately baffle me. And of course there is no documentation to refer to.
      I decided it's something subtle; the people who used to write software were people like me. People I went to school with, in some cases. We thought alike. Our instincts were similar. I would react to the UI as the creator intended, even though the average human didn't. Those days are gone; the creators of software now have grow up with a different set of experiences, have a different set of instincts, and I can't relate. It makes me disappointed. And they won't get off my lawn.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    82. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry for your situation. But that special situation doesn't invalidate the point you were responding too.

    83. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      I am willfully ignorant about my truck. I just have more money than time usually. If I get a flat tire, I call a tire shop. Oil change, pull into Oil Can Henry's. Tail light goes out.. OK, that one I did myself:). I am sure I could research and figure out how to do all the maintenance on my car myself. But I just don't want to.

      But I don't think my example applies to using computers as equally as it does to things like cars, which may require special tools or shops to work on.

      It comes down to lack of interest imo. The primary factor isn't that it is socially acceptable, the primary factor is more likely lack of interest by a large segment of society, which in turn makes it socially acceptable to 'be dumb' about computers.

      If your toaster suddenly stopped working correctly, are you more likely to just go buy a new toaster, or research and tinker with it trying to make it perfect again? Lots of people on this site might do the later, but 95% of the country is going to do the former.

      And despite having the skill to debug software and computer issues in general, oftentimes I find myself just re-installing software at home rather than debugging it. Or flat out just buying a new computer if it starts to act weird or gets slow. I spend 8+ hours a day debugging, creating, working on computers and servers. I just have zero interest continuing to do that once I get home.

    84. Re: pardon my french, but "duh" by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Design is often a compromise between many different audience types and factors. It wouldn't surprise me that a lot of design projects, especially for products that are marketed to a non-retired audience, are not going to put much effort into making the design friendlier to older people.

      I think the biggest mistake isn't so much not designing for all audiences equally, but rather the problem is inconsistent designs over time. If your design has a consistent logic to it, you will automatically make it easier for audiences, even the ones you didn't intend the design for.

      More companies could stand to come out with design standards, like https://www.google.com/design/spec/material-design/introduction.html#. And then stick to it for many years if not decades.

      But all that aside, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that lots of popular software projects likely don't even employ a designer (a real designer, with degrees and stuff:)).

    85. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by artur9 · · Score: 1

      Maybe it's the only way to get you to visit or call.

      --
      ------- MacOS X, WebObjects, Apple (G5) hardware triply tied
    86. Re:pardon my french, but "duh" by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 1

      That's the wrong metaphor. This kind of ignorance isn't equivalent to buying a new toaster when yours breaks, it's equivalent to making everyone around you miserable because you refused to learn how to even push down the toaster's lever and then going through the process all over again the moment someone bumps the doneness knob. It's the equivalent of refusing to ever feed yourself because the fork is shaped differently or was upsidedown in the drawer instead of right side up.

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
  3. Beta. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Listen up slashdot. "Share" vs. "Read More"...

    1. Re:Beta. by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Touché! I wonder how many older folks using slashdot gave up on it because of the change.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
  4. Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by mattventura · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd love interfaces that don't change every 2 weeks. Especially certain web browsers and desktop environments which seem to be plagued with such issues.

    1. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Vyse+of+Arcadia · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it's not like you just give up and stop using a computer when Google plays "where's the send button now?" with gmail.

    2. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As well as technically-oriented websites who ought to be trying to attract grizzled old neckbeards like me, instead of driving them away in frustration with unnecessary and annoying UI overhauls. Oh well.

    3. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by kbrannen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree completely. Too often we see change for the sake of change, for UI people to justify their jobs (or so it seems to me).

      My father is in his 70's and has slowly been losing his ability to figure out how to accomplish new things. He can remember things he learned as little as 5 years ago, but new things stymy him. Changing UI's have caused him to eventually give up using the computer, even his web email interface changed enough he couldn't use it any more. We considered adding voice recognition software, e.g. Dragon Naturally Speaking, but even that was to much for him to learn. Sadly, he's had to give up using the computer all together.

      I'd really like to see more software people come to realize that when something works well, to basically leave it alone. When software reaches that level of maturity, it's a good thing to leave it working. If that's boring for the developers, then go find a new software project and leave the mature product as is.

    4. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "People still need it enough that we won't actually drive them away. Usually." What a ringing endorsement of a design philosophy.

    5. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I believe they call it UX now.

      It used to be called UI, but after a while people became familiar with the term UI and knew how to use it.

      So, they had to change it.

    6. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by techno-vampire · · Score: 1

      Changing UI's have caused him to eventually give up using the computer...

      I'm not quite as old as your father, but I still prefer the type of UI that I used back in the days of Win95 because it does things the way I expect, and doesn't have an ever-growing set of bells, whistles and gongs getting in my way. That's why my computers all use Xfce, because it's trivial for me to set up the way I like it. And, for somebody like your father, who isn't interested in knowing what's going on "under the hood," switching to Linux isn't hard at all, especially if you pick a distro such as Xubuntu, which is designed with new users in mind.

      --
      Good, inexpensive web hosting
    7. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by FooAtWFU · · Score: 1
      You know, you can still get that if you want. PINE is still a thing (and elm, and mutt) and they work just like they used to. And the command line is a little formidable but you don't see it radically changing the rules all that much.

      Of course, in the years since those things were invented we've also invented amazing ways to send things like family pictures through email straight through your phone, and multigigabyte free online storage of photos that might outlast your lack-of-backups on the desktop, so... you win some, you lose some

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    8. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by roc97007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > When software reaches that level of maturity, it's a good thing to leave it working.

      Absolutely true. I think this runs counter to the basic business model, ,which posits that the next version be New and Exciting. (We could all think of examples of this I'm sure.) The Exciting part often being "I desperately need to do something RIGHT NOW that I USED to know how to do!"

      If software companies are upset that we're obstinately staying with older versions of their products, instead of paying for the latest and greatest, the answer might be simply "I know how to use this version, and I don't want to spend hours with each new revision trying to figure out where you've hidden the button this time." [1] It's ok to make things faster, more efficient, or add features, but Exciting New changes to the UI will slow adoption and may lose customers.

      [1] Trivial example: Mother in law in her seventies being forced to switch from Outlook Express to Windows Live Mail. She very nearly gave up on email altogether.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    9. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      "We Suck Less" should not be a product's motto.

    10. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's amazingly insightful.

    11. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by sjames · · Score: 1

      THIS! Mod up!

    12. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Now you have to worry about televisions becoming too complicated to use. Set top box user interfaces are pretty lousy too. Smartphones are portable containers of horrible interfaces so that you can be frustrated and annoyed anywhere you go. So if you give up on the computer altogether, soon you find yourself giving up on lots of things.

      Even ordering food at restaurants is hard now. Oganic, vegan, vegetarian, pescetarian, paleo, low carb, high carb, free range home schooled beef, etc. There's a place my friends go to where you fill out a form for the type of burger you want; it's not always clear what's going on, like what side is included and which cost extra. Dammit, just give me my burger already and don't make me choose which type of ketchup it has.

    13. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is all silly. UIs must change. If they don't, people will start using services with the newer, better interfaces. What's the choice? Not all change is necessary or for the good, but people are trying to make things better, as well they should.

      It sucks to be old. I'm getting older. But what really can be done? Halt all changes to the internet?

      It would be really cool if Apple tried to make a computer that was so very simple that even an old person could use it. They could call such a machine -- I don't know, maybe they'd call it iPad. But even there, the OS changes massively every year (or more, but eventually they have to upgrade). Still, seems to be a good old person machine, from what I've seen.

    14. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by demonlapin · · Score: 2

      My father-in-law tried to get a reservation to trim his beard in SF a couple of months ago. He's 62 and reasonably tech-savvy, but just can't wrap his head around the idea that some places won't let you book an appointment except via web. His entire life has been call, ask, see what's available. That no longer works. And my wife and I are totally comfortable with that, but it drives him up a wall. So, what happened? A half dozen boutique places lost his business, and he got a shave at The Art of Shaving on Union Square, solely because they would take a phone reservation. This is a guy who uses Uber like it's crack,

      It's not tech hatred, it's the lack of redundancy.

    15. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by IgnitusBoyone · · Score: 2

      I had to loko this up but you were rigth!. WTH is up with these young people. User Experince Design! Seriously!? Just read the description of this new fangled "field". Oh well new term for me.

      --
      Momento Mori
    16. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by IgnitusBoyone · · Score: 1

      Its like those silly icons on the top of a mac keyboard. I swear each one I get they are in a random new order for no reason! Or Android L changing what the Back button looks like to a triangle. I don't mind minor UI updates new colors shading, but stop moving things around for no reason or at least have a transition period over several iterations.

      We need to get to a point where you have long term support on a given interface. Windows Classic Skin does ok with this, but applications need to support it as well. Update the default UI as you wish, but offer users the classic design as a fall back for stability.

      --
      Momento Mori
    17. Re: Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by johnsnails · · Score: 1

      I don't recall "CTRL + Enter" moving recently.

    18. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by tompaulco · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, but it's not like you just give up and stop using a computer when Google plays "where's the send button now?" with gmail.

      Or when Slashdot plays the "what do I click to read the comments" game?

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    19. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd really like to see more software people come to realize that when something works well, to basically leave it alone. When software reaches that level of maturity, it's a good thing to leave it working. If that's boring for the developers, then go find a new software project and leave the mature product as is.

      I have nothing to add. The above needed to be repeated.

    20. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Now we just need to think of a buzzword in "S" to prefix it with...

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    21. Re: Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Try explaining this to a parent approaching 80 who doesn't like it when you try to get him to learn new keyboard shortcuts.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    22. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Where is this restaurant that serves free-range home-schooled beef? :)

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    23. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smart.

    24. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by dryeo · · Score: 1

      That's why I use SeaMonkey, the default interface has barely changed since Netscape 4.x days. As a bonus it is faster then Firefox (important on dial-up) while still doing most everything that Firefox does.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    25. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For a couple of days there I just assumed that they had removed the comment section for whatever reason and just skimmed the headlines and summaries. (Yes, considering beta I don't put it above dice level of retardation to actually do that.)
      Then I got too much time on my hands and actually clicked on a headline.

      Implied buttons must be the peak incompetence of UI design.

    26. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by rastos1 · · Score: 1

      On the other hand imagine a graphic application initially developed on HP-UX in early nineties with Starbase graphics gradually ported and adjusted to work on modern Windows OS. Still drawing the multi-level menu using graphic primitives such as "draw rectangle", no right-click for context menu and developers pulling their hair off because drawing with XOR-mode leaves some pixels on the screen ... but it is impossible to push a change because "users are used to that".

      I too don't like change for change sake, but I can also see the opposite extreme.

    27. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Pentium100 · · Score: 1

      So, Microsoft changed the UI of Office because otherwise people would have stopped using it and started using OpenOffice or something else?

      Most software is just a tool, nothing more. Other tools change less - a hammer does not change (it may be made with different materials etc, but how you use it does not change), even the basic UI of a car does not change (clutch, brakes, gas, steering wheel, gear stick).

      So, why does the creator of webmail feel the need to move the send button around? I understand adding new features (and the UI changes the follow them), but why change the "basic UI"?

    28. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by reikae · · Score: 1

      I suppose I'm missing something obvious here, but why is it important that Seamonkey is faster than Firefox (I'll take your word for it that it is faster)? Surely any browser would render content much faster than a dial-up connection can transfer data?

      I assume dial-up means about 56 kbps at most, or more likely around 30kbps; though I'm not at all up-to-date in that department.

    29. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      On the other hand imagine a graphic application initially developed on HP-UX in early nineties with Starbase graphics gradually ported and adjusted to work on modern Windows OS. Still drawing the multi-level menu using graphic primitives such as "draw rectangle", no right-click for context menu and developers pulling their hair off because drawing with XOR-mode leaves some pixels on the screen ... but it is impossible to push a change because "users are used to that".

      I too don't like change for change sake, but I can also see the opposite extreme.

      There's no reason why you'd have to take that extreme.

      The answer is actually pretty simple: Design your system so you have a separate UI layer (you know, like we're all being told is best practice anyway). Then it should be trivial to supply your software with a new shiny UI whenever you want to, while still also supplying the old UI as well for those who aren't ready for the change.

      The really obvious example here is Windows 8. The single biggest reason why people got annoyed by Windows 8 was because the old familiar user interface was ripped out and replaced with the Metro/Modern/whatever-you-call-it screen. If they'd left the desktop and start menu alone, and provided Metro as an additional UI rather than a replacement UI, then the Windows 8 launch would have gone a whole lot more smoothly. People who liked Metro could have switched to it; those who didn't could have stuck with the traditional desktop.

    30. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

      OK, how about "We suck less, but not a lot?" - I am all for truth in advertising.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    31. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      even the basic UI of a car does not change (clutch, brakes, gas, steering wheel, gear stick).

      Only becase of state intervention. Before that, every new model had the pedals and handbrake in different places, sometimes to work around a competitor's patents.

      I believe Ford had a patent on having all the switches on a single stalk on the steering column with the Mk1 Cortina (about 1962), so everyone else had to have two stalks, and then switch them around so you can squirt yourself in the face with the screen washer when you want the turn indicator in you partner's car, or go for the horn in an emergency.

      Its not only computer UI designers that are a manace to society. The world has been subjected to this nightmare for quite some time.

      The MS ribbon what what made my 80 year old mum switch to a Mac.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    32. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      Surely any browser would render content much faster than a dial-up connection can transfer data?

      Never underestimate the power of bloat!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    33. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now we just need to think of a buzzword in "S" to prefix it with...

      Superior.

      After all, UX designers (spit) are always trying to "improve" things.

      A free hint to user interface designers (not that you'll listen anyway): consistency. Both in time and space. Yes, I know, boring. But the most reliable way to communicate between people and machines.

    34. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I too don't like change for change sake, but I can also see the opposite extreme.

      It's called change management. It can work well but it's something UX designers almost universely ignore for "new shiny".

    35. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Online only disadvantages older people sometimes. The best deals are often online only, e.g. energy providers often give you a discount for signing up online and having paperless billing and online management. Those deals are simply not available to many older people. who could really benefit from them. Worse still the government then starts blaming people for not switching to the cheapest deals rather than properly regulating the industry.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    36. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      They are slowly catching up with where computing was about 20 years ago. First you had UI designers, who were responsible for making the shiny rounded buttons and skeudomorphic designs. Started out as some texturing to make windows look like they were made of metal or stone, instead of some abstract flat graphic. Those guys were glorified photoshop monkeys.

      Then came UX. Real Programmers (TM) had known for decades that the way to design a good program was to figure out how people would use it. This arcane knowledge was codified into the "user experience", or "how to do common tasks". Unfortunately it was myopic, focused on finding the "best" way to do everything and then forcing everyone to do it that way. Everything has to be flat and simple, because like a child's toy you only need one big green "GO" and one big red "STOP" button and hold on professor you want TWO god damn mouse buttons now?!

      Hopefully in another 10 years or so the UX people will have caught up to 1995 and be able to design interfaces that are consistent and flexible. I seem to recall that word processors peaked around then, for example.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    37. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      Now you have to worry about televisions becoming too complicated to use. Set top box user interfaces are pretty lousy too. Smartphones are portable containers of horrible interfaces so that you can be frustrated and annoyed anywhere you go. So if you give up on the computer altogether, soon you find yourself giving up on lots of things.

      Interesting observation. I work in the television industry, and our studio TVs (the ones the hosts of the show watch) don't have obvious buttons anymore, they are hidden in the back, tiny black buttons on a black case with tiny black raised lettering as an indication to what they do... even in a well lit room you need a flash light and magnifying glass to be able to use them. Why? Because now they expect you to just use the remote... and every remote control is different. On top of that (and what I think you were actually referring to), the menu systems on TVs are all different... even often on different models by the same manufacturer and, as we're pointing out, every new model seems to have a different one.

      Of course, it's not just those - my home TV isn't much better, but the ones in the studio are the "latest and greatest."

      Even ordering food at restaurants is hard now. Oganic, vegan, vegetarian, pescetarian, paleo, low carb, high carb, free range home schooled beef, etc. There's a place my friends go to where you fill out a form for the type of burger you want; it's not always clear what's going on, like what side is included and which cost extra. Dammit, just give me my burger already and don't make me choose which type of ketchup it has.

      An interesting episode of "Brain Games" discussed this - we're actually much more comfortable with a limited number of choices despite the fact our brains tell us that more choice is good.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    38. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      So, Microsoft changed the UI of Office because otherwise people would have stopped using it and started using OpenOffice or something else?

      Yes and no... in reality, people would have kept right on using MS Office, but perception is reality - software companies, like MS, think they have to keep "innovating" in order to stay ahead. If they sit still, someone will pass them by... it's not true in this case, but that's the perception. It IS true w.r.t. the OS, but that doesn't mean the GUI needs to drastically change.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    39. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Implied buttons must be the peak incompetence of UI design.

      And yet mobile app developers think it is the pinnacle of UI design. White words on a black background, and four or five of them are live links, but you can't tell which ones without clicking on them. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    40. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      > "using graphic primitives such as 'draw rectangle'"

      Let's not be ridiculous -- *how* it's done can change. And user interfaces can change when they're new, only used by geeks, and all the use cases haven't been figured out yet. But once mature, the buttons shouldn't move around (or go away completely) just to be new and trendy. You don't have to be old to not want that.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    41. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Better caching seems to be one part. Watching the activity on the network, Firefox seems to download a lot more info to render a page. While not so noticeable with the speed of hardware and improvements in the JavaScript JIT, there also seems to less JavaScript executed. There was a time, perhaps in the FF3.5 days, when Firefox would take twice as long to render a page on Slashdot as SeaMonkey (both built locally from the same tree), with the CPU at 100% the whole time.
      And yes dial-up here with crappy phone lines means 26.4 to 28.8 kpbs download speeds.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    42. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by ultranova · · Score: 1

      If software companies are upset that we're obstinately staying with older versions of their products, instead of paying for the latest and greatest, the answer might be simply "I know how to use this version, and I don't want to spend hours with each new revision trying to figure out where you've hidden the button this time."

      More to the point, the concept of "product" was part of Industrial Age and simply doesn't make sense in Information Age. In the world of plenty a business model based on scarcity requires you to create artificial scarcity and inevitably makes you a villain. It also doesn't work. Current software companies stay afloat because Information Age is only dawning, and the old myths - the values and patterns of behavior consider the "default" - of Industrial Age have held dominance; but as economy leaves industrial production a niche, just like it did agriculture earlier, copyrights and their underlaying ideas if "software is property" will lose what little power they still have and selling software will become impossible.

      So what will replace it? Perhaps some kind of "work for hire" model. In this model, software houses didn't have products, rather they'd implement new features and polish existing ones, maybe funded through something like Kickstarter. Then again, it's possible that, as Information Age progresses and the new model becomes the default, the entire concept of property will simply crumble. After all, if a robot built by other robots builds a doohickey from materials mined by yet more robots, why should it "belong" to anyone? If I want one, I can just tell the robots to build one; if you want one, you can tell them to build one too. Nobody needs to be paid.

      If this happens - if production will become a background process like trees making oxygen, unlike the entire focus of human existence like it currently is - then future will basically be a communist utopia developing, as Marx predicted, when ideological - currently capitalistic - covering of the society has outlived its usefulness and said society sheds it, like it has many others previously. Which may or may not be enough to stop gratuitous changes to user interface.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    43. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I would have put it differently, that the current "product" mindset does work while we're on the steep end of the curve, but we've long passed that. Most people *can't buy* a computer that isn't 10X more powerful than they actually need. Hardware capability has long passed the most common usage model. Similarly, software has gotten to the point where most people don't need anything new. With Windows 7 and maybe Office 2000 (which I still use at home) we don't even need the software to be more reliable. (I didn't think I'd ever say that about Office or Windows...) It's been "good enough" for several years now.

      But as processor companies had to get used to the fact that new users don't care anymore what's under the hood (as opposed, for instance, to everyone still running a 386 saving up for that 486), software companies need to realize that hiding the control panel, replacing buttons with gestures and then back to buttons, and going from flat icons to 3d back to flat isn't buying them any love from most users. The only reason, for instance, that I went to 7 from XP is that the 64 bit version of 7 was better developed than the 64 bit version of XP. And there's absolutely no reason (at least, so far) for me to delve into 8, or 10. Similarly, as I said, I'm using Office 2000 at home and with the compatibility pack it works fine. At work I was recently force-upgraded to Office 2013 "in the cloud" and it's been a fiasco. Unreliable, prone to unexplained pauses and freezes, and I have to google how to do things I used to know how to do. This "different is better" thing has to stop.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    44. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      For the TVs and remotes, it does seem to me things have gotten worse. I loved my DirecTV/Tivo combo; so when my mother got rid of Dish and got DirecTV, I thought her UI would improve but it was just as bad and confused me too. The Tivo was just a lot more intuitive. But Tivo was a stand out anyway, all the competitors just have awful UIs.

      The new UIs are considered a side issue, if a manufacturer makes a large screen TV then they are proud of that technology but the interface itself is only a last consideration and farmed out to third party teams probably. No one in marketing is insisting that they have the best user interface in the industry, it's likely not even crossing their minds. There may be pressure to have fewer buttons on the remote, or to have fewer words on the screen, and so forth.

      My brother had worked with UI with a contracting company and a lot of the clients he worked with had requirements that involved a picture of exactly what every screen and option should look like down to the pixel. There was no leeway given, no opportunity to suggest a better design. The requirements are not necessarily even coming from experts in human-machine interaction but from the product managers instead.

    45. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      That was my review for Windows 98 when it came out. "It doesn't suck as much as I thought it would."

    46. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by anagama · · Score: 1

      Glad I'm not the only one who was annoyed. And why remove the "read more" link in the first place? They already have a "share" button to the left, and tags to the right. It would take no space to leave it.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    47. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Well, the reason the online services are cheaper is that they've replaced answering services, receptionists, etc., with computers. So there's really no way around it - if you don't replace the people, you don't save money, so you can't offer lower prices.

      It was really pretty interesting to watch it play out over the vacation - we were in SF for a few days before driving to LA. In SF it's tech this and tech that, and I was the guy running the show. In LA it's all bullshit, smoke, and mirrors, and he (40 years a salesman) was the wizard.

    48. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Umm, Tivo is "still" around (and I think in their recent quarter they actually did much much better than they have in a long time). I put quotes around still, since most people for some reason don't think

      Even *they* have changed UI in *some* ways that IMHO are inferior, but overall are generally better (fit far more stuff, but still readably, on a TV nowadays)... and it's still recognizable as a Tivo interface.

      Many more tuners than previously, for OTA or cable, and I think you can still buy the HD DirecTV/Tivo combo, but it IIRC is the oldest hardware wise, and it only has 2 tuners IIRC.

    49. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Yes it's still around, just not in my house anymore.

    50. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I explained that it *could* be.. You explained how you moved to a worse UI...

      (No, I don't work there, though I'm a big fan of Tivos, and complain about some things -- e.g. I have big problems with the downloading/streaming to the iOS app, and have been working with them to get it fixed.)

    51. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      Well, it's alpine nowadays..

      and it *does* handle at least some of the "new stuff", like Unicode, and lets you open URLs and attachments in your browser, etc.

    52. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      No, my mother never had a Tivo or DVR, but she used DirecTV which I remembered in the past had a very reasonable UI, which later integrated with Tivo very easily. So I was surprised to see the latest DirecTV non-DVR UI that she had as it seemed like a big step backwards.

    53. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      I gave my parents a Tivo, and they gave it back because it was too complicated. Now they've got the DVR that comes with Comcast... and I just have to laugh, because otherwise I'd shoot myself.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    54. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by servant · · Score: 1
      I agree. For some the 'dial phone' is a wonderful example. It is a great advancement from the 'ring the operator' days, but much simpler to use for those that have trouble with re-learning than ANY of the 'smart phones' that must be changed every few years. ... Some of my 80-something friends go for the simple, large button, feature phones instead anyway. They use a camera for pictures, AOL to go online (I still don't understand that, but they love it - it is what they learned 'back when' and is still the way they think of the internet). Changing their view of the world is almost inhumane. They brought us from the dust bowl through horrific wars and went to the moon and beyond. We still live on their backs, and they deserve our respect and to give them support they need to live good lives without having to live like we choose to.
      .

      Enough preaching. Changing just to change doesn't make sense. The cost of re-training users is born by the consumer AND the vendor. If you drive away more (users, revenue, views, whatever you want to measure) than you get the 'new' method is a step back.

      --
      ... "When you pry the source from my cold dead hands."
    55. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Microsoft uses that same "feature" to trick people into signing up for a Microsoft account during Windows 8.1's setup.
      Lesson learned : I'll never sign up for a microsoft account (which means I will never be able to buy a Metro application I suppose, even if I had a compatible OS or device)

    56. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      That's amazingly insightful.

      Not really...

      UI is the saddle, the stirrups, and the reigns.

      UX is the feeling you get being able to ride the horse, and rope your cattle.

      http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2012/06/ui-vs-ux-whats-the-difference/

    57. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but it's not like you just give up and stop using a computer when Google plays "where's the send button now?" with gmail.

      Or when Slashdot plays the "what do I click to read the comments" game?

      10+ insightful. Getting to comments on a site whose main purpose is comments should A) never be buried 2 clicks into the site, and B) hovering over username should indicate what happens when you click username. Especially for someone new to the site, why would they expect to find any of the stuff under username when clicking username, if it doesn't tell you anything about the link? This must be impossible for blind people using screen readers to use.

    58. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Geez yes. If it ain't broke, don't go fixing it. If it ain't broke, a whole LOT of people already depend on it, and whatever you change WILL break it for too many of 'em.

      This kind of breakage is a major reason why I use so many old software versions, across the board.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    59. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Going from WinXP to Win7 pretty much made my mom give up using the computer too. She is 85 but not at all dim. She just doesn't live on the computer like some of us do, and if anything doesn't work as expected, she's like "whatever" and stops using it.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    60. Re:Unchanging UIs? Not just for old people by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      And you know how you get to be able to ride the horse and rope your cattle?

      BY NOT CHANGING THE DAMN INTERFACE EVERY TWO WEEKS!

  5. Hmm, this article is interesting... by djbckr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Perhaps Slashdot should take a cue from this article and stop messing around with the UI!

    1. Re:Hmm, this article is interesting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But then Slashdot would slip quietly into irrelevancy... oh wait.

    2. Re:Hmm, this article is interesting... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Hear Hear!

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    3. Re:Hmm, this article is interesting... by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Slashdot should take a cue

      I still click the bottom "Share" link out of habit because that's where the "Read" link used to be. Get off my lawn, Dice! I ain't sharing it.

    4. Re:Hmm, this article is interesting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      WWW.soylentnews.org

    5. Re:Hmm, this article is interesting... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nasty dices, it won't gives the precious pre-beta UI back to usss.

      (Whelp... there's only one solution left: bite the finger off.)

  6. They are not alone by MatthiasF · · Score: 3

    Hell, I'm not even 40 yet and I would like to see some of the websites I regularly use to stop changing UIs for the sake of change.

    Progress I will accept it, but if I need to spend the better part of a morning trying to figure out how to do something that only took 3 clicks before the update, that's not progress in my book.

    1. Re:They are not alone by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Hell, I'm not even 40 yet and I would like to see some of the websites I regularly use to stop changing UIs for the sake of change.

      The sad thing is, when Tim Berners-Lee came up with http, the idea was for the server to send the core info to the client, and for the client to display it in the format best for the client. So if you had a fancy computer and a big monitor, you could display the webpage with full graphics and high resolution fonts. If you had a low-end computer and a small monitor, you could display the webpage as text-only.

      At some point, website designers got it into their heads that they knew the best format to view the information, not the person who was actually viewing the site on their own the computer and monitor. The first such sites were flash-based. Couldn't be scaled, reflowed, reformatted. Most everything has gone downhill since then, with many sites today even refusing to let you resize text and photos (the formatting gets messed up if you try).

      Extensions like Stylebot for Chrome can help, but they're still pretty primitive.

    2. Re:They are not alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Remember how you used to be able to right click on a network connection and go 'properties' from the system tray?

      Those were the days.

      Now it's "Open Network and Sharing Center", go past the annoying homegroup sharing bullshit that nobody has EVER used, now you can see your network connections and FINALLY you can get into the settings.

      I can believe that people are studying UX, but not that whatever they're studying SAYS DOING THIS BULLSHIT IS GOOD.

    3. Re:They are not alone by marsu_k · · Score: 1

      Most everything has gone downhill since then, with many sites today even refusing to let you resize text and photos (the formatting gets messed up if you try).

      Actually, with "responsive design" being all the rage nowadays (Google has started to downrank sites in mobile search that aren't responsive, AFAIK Bing does/will do the same), that is getting less true every day. Now, that doesn't mean responsive design is a magical answer to everything; too often tablet size and/or landscape mode is neglected, and no matter how careful one is, there might be breakage with a combination of browser X and resolution Y. But we're getting there.

    4. Re:They are not alone by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Remember how you used to be able to right click on a network connection and go 'properties' from the system tray?

      Yep, right cllick, edit connections.

      Those were the days.

      Those ARE the days my friend, I hope they'll never end.


      [CronoCloud ~]$ cat /etc/redhat-release
      Fedora release 22 (Twenty Two)

    5. Re: They are not alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Hell, I'm not even 40 yet and I would like to see some of the websites I regularly use to stop changing UIs for the sake of change."

      Heh. We dug our own graves perfecting CSS and JavaScript and making sure old static pages get no eyeballs. Now that everything is centralized and gargantuan efforts are no longer needed to redesign a sure, no design its ever truly complete.

      related: Slashdot, is it really so hard to mimic the quote button on mobile? I just had to turn back and drag my finger all over in order to zero in on the parent post. And there is no way for mobile and IIRC on desktop if you are using Beta to copy a permalink to a comment

    6. Re:They are not alone by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Often it isn't change for change sakes, but stats about the audience behavior, combined with usability testing, reveals that 'audience X' (where X can be 'people between the ages of y and z' or 'new users' or 'existing users', etc.. ) finds it much easier to find 'button z' when it is moved to location 'a'.

      The problem is that any change you make will always annoy at least one of your audience types. But if 10 audience types are made happier instantly, while 7 audience types are just annoyed for a period time, the call is often on the side of redesign.

  7. To a certain extent. by rmdingler · · Score: 1
    suggesting that old is largely a point of view, rather than an absolute

    Hear hear!!

    Get up out of that chair and go to walking.

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

  8. Posted On Slashdot Of Course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So fitting a story about bad user interfaces is posted on slashdot. This site has turned unusable to each update. What happened to the magical benefits of open source making better software? This site design is a fucking shitshow and a joke.

    Editors, you should take note please.

  9. Remote Support Should be Easy, But Isn't by bearded_yak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Having worked in user support and network administration for multiple industries, I can imagine the frustration for caregivers when even the remote support software is just too confusing for the user.

    For instance, many of the most popular remote support services require the end user to jump through multiple hoops that may include surfing to a particular web address (which they invariably type into Google or Yahoo instead of the address bar), entering a series of digits they swear they typed correctly (but often haven't and are too stubborn to re-read what they typed), then watch the screen for browser interaction prompts (which may be reasonable-sized prominent pop-up dialogs, but are more often either a noticeable thin yellow bar at the top or bottom of the browser window, or even worse, a pop-up window that somehow ended up as a pop-under, even though that's not how it is supposed to be), then click only the buttons that answer in the affirmative. All of this assumes the user's browser even works correctly.

    Some days, it seems that even the young-uns can't figure out how to allow a remote support session.

    I do know there are a few less-complicated remote support products, but they are few and far between, do not seem to be popular enough to be in common use in these scenarios, and often have more security issues than the services I mention above.

    Much of the remote support problem is the catch-22 of browser security. If you don't secure the browser more, the customer is at risk. If you do secure the browser more, the customer's experience is further complicated.

    There are those who would say "just educate the user". These are the people who do not understand their fellow humans and the limitations different types of learner and different generational barriers.

    So, what about writing down instructions ahead of time? That gets into what the original post discussed; The interface will inevitably change, either for the browser or for the remote support service.

    I'm not saying I think there is a fix. I don't. I do think it is something that might could be solved if the industry becomes more aware of the Human Interface Design problem it has.

    1. Re:Remote Support Should be Easy, But Isn't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do know there are a few less-complicated remote support products, but they are few and far between, do not seem to be popular enough to be in common use in these scenarios, and often have more security issues than the services I mention above.

      Use TeamViewer. Free for personal use, easy to set up, secure and use. No web browser needed.

    2. Re:Remote Support Should be Easy, But Isn't by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      I do know there are a few less-complicated remote support products, but they are few and far between, do not seem to be popular enough to be in common use in these scenarios, and often have more security issues than the services I mention above.

      Use TeamViewer. Free for personal use, easy to set up, secure and use. No web browser needed.

      Um, yeah, I use it too, but it takes someone with basic computer skills to set it up, which isn't always assured at the other end. I support a medium-large user base, many elderly, and I always visit them personally the first time, set up Team Viewer, and make sure it works before I leave. Then it's always running and they don't have to do anything for me to jump on and help.

      Incidentally, a big hitch in my daily operations was when Logmein went pay-only. (The logic being that it was offering a bunch of wonderful new features, mostly eye candy, that I would never use.) I had to visit each customer, uninstall Logmein, and install Team Viewer. What a hassle.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  10. We got our MiL a fax machine by Snotnose · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Lillian could write a letter and send a fax. We bought a fax for her assisted living home, and one for our house. She died at, I think, 96, in '07. But for the 3 years she was in that assisted living home my ex talked to her mom daily over that fax connection.

    About a year after she died I tried to craigslist the 2 fax machines, no joy. I gave them to goodwill and took a nice tax deduction. I can admit to that because the statue of limitations has passed :)

    1. Re:We got our MiL a fax machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I set up a SBC, break out board and an all-in-one to do a similar thing. Press a button, it scans all the paper in the ADF, turns it to a pdf, attaches it to an email and addresses it based on the phone number typed in (single digit only, if she forgets to or pushes "0" it to a special folder for manual addressing by one of the family). If she pushes another button, it grabs everything in the inbox and prints it out either as-is for an attachment or in large print if in the body.

    2. Re:We got our MiL a fax machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Never admit to tax fraud: there's no statue of limitations.

    3. Re:We got our MiL a fax machine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Faxing is the best solution compared to having some important email flagged as spam, especially with webmails that hide the spam folder or people that never check it.

  11. Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why I hate stuff like GNOME 3. "Hey guys, let's throw out our good working interface that people like and replace it with confusing trendy hipster bullshit!"

    1. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's why I love Cinnamon. "Hey guys, let's take this Gnome 3 confusing trendy hipster bullshit and rape it into submission."

    2. Re:Yes by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      > and replace it with confusing trendy hipster bullshit!

      That pretty much says it all.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  12. Lipstick on a pig by Arethereanyleft · · Score: 1

    I've encountered a lot of situations where so-called software designers ("so-called" because they are often graphic designers who ended up with the title "software designer" without the experience or education associated with that title) feel the need to make the UI look "better" when the underlying software doesn't completely work. This is like putting lipstick on a pig - it's still a pig.

    Another aspect of this is that designers forget that users don't use their software as often as they might. They see things every day that they don't like, and they want to change these things, but the users don't see that problem.

    One example of software that became less useful with changes is the Now Utilities suite for the Mac that was made unusable by constant changes. Useful features were removed or made useless. I finally had to freeze my environment so I could actually get my work done. This often meant living with other bugs because upgrading the software was detrimental to the system as a whole.

  13. Following a recipe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Having done tech support for clueless customers and family members for years, I find a lot of older people treat using technology like following a recipe.

    They don't understand (or are unwilling to understand) how their programs work, and they are unable to recognize patterns in similar UIs, so they follow a set of instructions to do what they need to do - 1) Click this button, 2) Click that button, etc.

    A UI change is devastating to them because the instructions they were following are now useless. They have to go through all the motions again and make a new set of instructions for themselves.

    This is made even worse by the stigma around old people and technology - "I'm too old to learn something new", "I can't keep up with all these changes", "I had so many steps to follow already, I can't handle any more".

    They get overwhelmed by the perceived difficulty, their emotions take over, and it causes frustration for everyone involved.

    Even if a company does create instructions and user guides it's not guaranteed to help. A company can only do so much to prepare users for changes; they can't change human nature.

    1. Re:Following a recipe by pepty · · Score: 0

      For supporting elderly relatives: Macs are great. More recipes, fewer puzzles.

  14. I have experience with people whose minds not by Cafe+Alpha · · Score: 3, Insightful

    strong. I don't want to say "failing" just very poor memory and the like caused by very poor health. One case is a man who was in the tech industry years ago, but that doesn't mean that as his mind was harmed by the effects of illness he could continue to make sense of Google's ever changing interface. He didn't have a problem with mail so much (he used thunderbird, so that interface wasn't changing), but he couldn't navigate Google's changing phone service interfaces. Combine that with poor eyesite and problems with phone drivers that occasionally have to reload ... and there would be days when he had no phone service until someone came by and fixed his computer.

    Keep in mind that there are people (once again the same man) who at times find simply dialing a phone too hard. Maybe they're too slow for hospital phone that gives you 20 seconds of dial tone then gives up, or worse gives you 20 seconds but no audio cue like a dialtone.

    For such people you need interfaces designed differently than ones for average customers. You need interfaces that NEVER change. You need interfaces that have no time-outs. You need interfaces that force modal interactions rather than assuming that the user will NOTICE something.

    1. Re:I have experience with people whose minds not by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      You need interfaces that NEVER change.

      That will never be possible. What is possible, is interfaces using a consistent design pattern and logic when making changes. That, unfortunately, doesn't happen as often as it should.

  15. Apple by bkgoodman · · Score: 0
    Back in my day - Apple computers (in particular MacOS) was widely known to be the easiest, most intuitive, user-friendly machine/OS out there. So when my 80+ year old father was looking for a new computer, I steered him to a Mac. BIG MISTAKE

    I think it was a combination of older people getting stuck in their ways and not easily learning new thing - along with the massive complexity in newer OSX - along with a little nine-headedness - like no right mouse button, but a billion was of needing that functionality and other less-than-obvious ways of accessing it (like pressing on the right SIDE of the Magic Mouse, etc)

    1. Re:Apple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You could have bought literally any USB mouse and it would have worked.

  16. UI shouldn't be restricted to web / software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    In my spare time I pay visit to local elders and from them I have heard plenty of horrible anecdotes of how a change, no matter how minuscule that might be, might have a detrimental effect to some of the users - especially the elders

    For example - for years there was a service whereby the older people can call up, and a human operator will answer. If the older people needs something that service would try to find people / resources to help out

    That went on many years without problems and many elders, especially those staying alone, rely on the service

    Then suddenly someone decide to save some money by installing an auto attendant, where callers must listen to some options and then dial a particular number for a particular task

    For young people there should be no problem - but for older people where many have problem listening, and hand-eye coordination ability are no longer 'sharp', that auto attendant thing puts off many of the elderly

    Couple with it the audio script that was badly scripted (long-winded and without clear roadmap), and was read by someone with a very lousy accent

    Many of the elders have told me that they stopped calling that service because to them 'it's a torture'

    In short - a UI change, no matter how minor it might seem, may whack some severe blows to users whose ability are not as sharp as others

    1. Re: UI shouldn't be restricted to web / software by goombah99 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'm in a similar situation and it will surprise he hell out of you how little design choices or sudden small changes just wreck a senior persons ability to use a device. When Google moved the reply compose window from new page to an inline division at the bottom of the page seniors I know were unable to adjust. What seems to be lost is the cognitive clue of the new page load or Pop up window that one is changing context. The subtle sliding open of a new field at the end if the message window that you may need to scroll to proved almost unlearnable. Sure it's better Ajax than a new page load but it's not good for intuition. Things that are modal rather than expose on mouse over are much better for arthritic or less attentive mouse users. Likewise all those genie effects and skeimorphic interfaces and 3d pulsating buttons apple seems to be running away from are exactly the clues seniors need.

      When it comes to physical appliances having rotary switches that change menus but have no absolute rotation position are death to people with macular degeneration or arthritis. The worst are the dials on washing machines which free rotate when pulled out loosing the correlation of clock positional orientation and function. You can't buy a washer with just one big red button that says just wish my fucking clothes instead you have to finely rotate a knob past the permeate press setting to the normal settings beginning of cycle. But don't go too far or you miss the wash portion and just skip to the spin cycle. Behold needs this control? Why does apple or dishwasher makers think it's a good idea to make all buttons the same size shape and in one row? These thing just don't work for partly sighted or people with atheist is or motor impairments. Stroke victims can just give up. Making buttons different and putting some space between them would help

      The floating ad bars at the bottom of slash dot for mobile users are impossible for non nimble fingers to dismiss , they are deliberately misleading appearing to be controls, and make the real buttons on the page unreachable.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
  17. A little hyperbolic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The headline is terrible.

    1. Re:A little hyperbolic by khallow · · Score: 1

      What's hyperbolic about it? There are examples in various posts of people who stopped communicating with their loved ones because they couldn't figure out the new interface or who stopped receiving services for the elderly because someone put in a automated voice messenging system. We're turning into a society where computers are becoming essential for both getting things done and for connecting with each other. Bad and arbitrary UI changes break that.

    2. Re:A little hyperbolic by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      Wait until Dad's having a heart attack and Mum can't ring the ambulance because her phone UI has changed again and she's too upset to be able to figure it out and THERE'S NO BLOODY TIME for that nonsense in any case.

      Hyperbolic enough for ya?

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  18. I smell an ADA lawsuit by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 1

    Come on, some lawyer will jump on this - just as soon as we get being a curmudgeon classified as a disability.

    Or maybe anyone can self-identify as disabled?

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    1. Re:I smell an ADA lawsuit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did Slashdot not allow enough characters in the username for NotQuiteRealTalkingAsshole. Is the last part just implied?

  19. Only chance: Get this added to the ADA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There's no way you're going to get for-profit corporations to maintain two UIs by asking nicely -- budgets I've seen barely cover one UI development pipeline, and even that goes south more often than not.

    What you MIGHT be able to do, however, is get this passed legislatively as part of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) -- if it's required to do business online in the US that you have an Accessibility-focused UI, then people will reluctantly do it in the same way they (usually, not always) reluctantly spend extra money building wheelchair-accessible ramps to supplement the cheaper option of stairs.

    We're at the point now where the internet is a public good, just like streets, and it's time to start thinking about how to solve the online problems like these in the same we solved it offline over the last 200 years.

    So to all reading this: I'd suggest the call to action isn't "hey, let's do the right thing, tell your friends", but instead "hey, lobby your congressman / senator and get this passed as pat of the relevant disabilities and accessibility laws, and tell your friends to do the same".

    1. Re:Only chance: Get this added to the ADA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just what we need - a government-specified UI! Yeah, right.
      More work for lawyers, too...

  20. I still love you, bae by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    I think what this story is really about is drunk texting and emailing.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  21. Good and bad by safetyinnumbers · · Score: 2

    Although software is getting easier to use in many ways, mobile OSs manage to include both the best and worse in usability.

    "Press that button below the screen, then tap the envelope picture to see your mail", is something that almost anyone could work out for themselves, but actions such as a long-hold on an item, swiping it left or right, tap with two fingers at once, dragging in a direction with two or three fingers, drag down to reveal the hidden search box above the list and drag from outside the screen area all are examples of interactions that you might never discover.

    1. Re:Good and bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Best new addition in Android is regions on the lock screen that can simply be tapped to unlock the phone and open the app.

      It's the LOCK screen. The one where I DON'T want the phone to automatically do stuff because it's been bumped by accident.

      FFS.

    2. Re:Good and bad by swillden · · Score: 1

      Best new addition in Android is regions on the lock screen that can simply be tapped to unlock the phone and open the app.

      Actually it takes a double tap, quick and fairly well-targeted.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  22. Also continuous lipstick application. by aussersterne · · Score: 2

    I've worked for two companies where "agile" methodology applied company-wide meant point releases every one or two weeks and minor UI changes with every point release to "get better with each version." This floated mgmt's boat and kept the UX/UI people busy and excited, but it was a nightmare for customer support and (evidently, by extension) for customers who could never quite feel as though they'd "learned" to use the software.

    Every time they logged in they struggled to figure out how to repeat the workflows they'd struggled to get ahold of the previous time. Of course, the widgets, labels, views, etc. tended to change between logins. Kind of like a maze with moving walls.

    I argued for UI changes to be batched for major versions, but this supposedly wasn't "agile."

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    1. Re:Also continuous lipstick application. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I argued for UI changes to be batched for major versions, but this supposedly wasn't "agile."

      Argue for the elimination of the UX department. Cite the decline in market share of Digg, Firefox, GNOME 3, and Windows 8. Four sites/products/brands and even the dominant desktop environment on the planet, all ruined by UX changes.

      Spay and neuter your UX department for the same reason you spay and neuter your pets: they breed like rabbits, consume all available resources (from development to documentation), and consume not only bottom-line resources by costing money to hire them and waste time chasing their fickel dreams, but top-line revenues by driving your customers off the upgrade cycle because they just don't want to deal with whatever shit the UXtards have shat out of Photoshop this week. You may want to phrase the last bit a little more delicately, but I think it's a sentiment that even the most pointy-haired boss can appreciate.

  23. How about responsive UI's while we're at it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I press a key or tap a button, I want INSTANT feedback.

    It's really frustrating when I try to go to a webpage in Chrome on my brand-spankin-new Galaxy S6 edge sometimes, and nothing happens. No activity indicator. The network activity icon at the top of my screen is idle. I try to tap on the hyperlinks on the page; they don't work either. Soon after it replays every tap I made in the past thirty seconds...if I'm lucky. The rest of the time I have to kill the process.

    Sometimes on my workstation I'm in the middle of writing an e-mail, and suddenly the letters stop appearing because some mundane process decided it's time to use 100% of my disk resource. I understand how that can happen sometimes...actually no I don't. That should never happen. I'm typing a damn e-mail; what background process could possibly be so important as to interrupt my keyboard input without notice?

    Oh...and Cancel buttons on progress indicators....THEY SHOULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING USEFUL.

    (p.s. while writing this post, I somehow managed to make the Chrome DevTools appear by an unfortunate mashing of a key I wasn't looking at).

    1. Re:How about responsive UI's while we're at it by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      Chrome on my brand-spankin-new Galaxy S6 edge

      Chrome on android is a horrible piece of software. Samsung has done wonders with the 'Internet' browser on S6. It's the fastest browser on any mobile device, if you believe some reviewers. Use that instead of chrome. The only advantage chrome has is the sync with desktop chrome.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
  24. He is talking about interfaces that are "Clean" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of my frustrations with the UI designers at a previous job was that they had an obsession with a "Clean" interface. That meant, only the barest labels. If there was text to tell you what an item did, that was bad. Any clickable UI elements had to be as small as possible. Never mind that the target audience was using a much smaller screen, and in less than ideal conditions with poor input methods. It was "clean".

  25. God damnit Skype by Thraxy · · Score: 1

    Stop ruining my life!

  26. endless complaining by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

    Claiming that a UI of a service that is often free and has thousands of competitors is "ruining someone's life" is just stupid. If you don't like a UI, don't use it. In fact, there are plenty of UIs for mail and other services that have changed hardly at all in a decade; just use those.

    1. Re:endless complaining by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 1

      In fact, there are plenty of UIs for mail and other services that have changed hardly at all in a decade; just use those.

      Would you be so kind as to name some? And please don't suggest that I try to teach my 78-year-old mother how to use pine. Thanks.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    2. Re:endless complaining by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      If you insist on GUIs, Thunderbird and its derivatives have remained fairly stable. Sylpheed is another one. Many of the locally installed web mail systems, and many online providers also don't change their user interfaces much over time.

      However, why exclude Pine or Mutt? They are extremely stable and fast, and the elderly in my experience have no particular problems with non-GUI interfaces; in fact, since a lot of their interaction is driven by little sticky notes with instructions like "first press this, then type that", they actually often have an easier time with such interfaces.

  27. Article Highlights by Art3x · · Score: 5, Informative

    First, this survey was not mainly about grandmothers. They had "ages ranging from their 30s to well into their 90s," and "a vast number of responses involved highly skilled, technologically-savvy individuals -- often engineers themselves."

    The overwhelming complaints were of:

    - "low-contrast interfaces and fonts, gray fonts on gray backgrounds"

    - "Hidden menus. Obscure interface elements (e.g., tiny upside-down arrows). Interface and menu elements that only appear if you've moused over a particular location on the display. Interface elements that are so small or ephemeral that they can be a challenge to click even if you still have the motor skills of youth."

    - "the sudden change of an icon from a wrench to a gear, or a change in a commonly used icon's position"

  28. Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lauren Weinstein wrote:

    So I have a modest suggestion.

    I would like to see major Web services commit themselves to the proposition of providing optional and easily enabled "basic interfaces" to their main services, alongside the existing "primary" interfaces.

    All I can say is Good Luck With That. Unless this plan comes with a new revenue stream to equal the cost, it's a non-starter.

    What's important right now is that we commit ourselves to the proposition that we need to better serve all users, and that our current largely one-size-fits-all user interface methodologies are actively working against this crucial concept.

    Actually, no, I don't feel obligated to "better serve all users" (emphasis added). If I have limited resources (e.g. I'm not Microsoft, Apple, or Google), my primary concern is better serving that subset of the population that is profitable. Having a good UI that doesn't change weekly probably is a good way to serve my target audience. What I won't commit to is spending extra money to create a parallel UI just for gomers.

    Modern UI's have evolved to reward users who can apply general concepts to new situations, and punish users who rely on rote memorization of the steps to perform.

  29. I hate it when people start typing their response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    in the subject box

  30. Yahoo mail classic by sims+2 · · Score: 1

    Yahoo mail classic, remember why you never switched to the new yahoo mail? Well its standard now and you can't go back

    Also apple why you change my ui? Ios 6 looked fine!.....why don't you support theming yet????

    --
    Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
  31. GNOME 3 by mea2214 · · Score: 1, Flamebait

    One day I counted click and scrolls for my use case and they doubled in Gnome 3 over Gnome 2. It wasn't a matter of not liking fonts or colors or how windows flew across the screen, it was knowing how easy it used to be making every extra click and scroll in Gnome 3 upsetting for me. How did the designers of that UI not see this? Currently writing this using Gnome 2 on Fedora 14.

  32. Bad UI... sure it sucks, but does it ruin lives? by r-diddly · · Score: 1

    Someone turning 65 this year, was born in 1950. If we take 1980 as a rough date for when personal computers became affordable & popular, that means in all likelihood this person spent 30 years with NO COMPUTER. I find it hard to believe someone like this, with 20, 30, 40 computerless years under their belt, can have their life RUINED by not using them in their later years. In other words for every elder who is heart-wrenchingly and helplessly falling out of step with the Great Boon, I guarantee there are at least two who are basically just blowing computers off, because they were never that attached to them in the first place.

  33. Easy test by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    I think software should offer an option (disabled by default, but mentioned when first used) which switches the interface to that of the previous version. If more than half of your users switch back, you line up your UI "experts" and give them each a kick in the nuts and a pink slip.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:Easy test by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1
      give them each a kick in the nuts

      This. a thousand times this!

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
    2. Re:Easy test by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      a kick in the nuts? I sometimes thinnk the Hanover Fiste approach would be better:

      Hanging's too good for them. Burning's too good for them! They should be torn into little bitsy pieces and buried alive!

  34. I've seen that here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With the Beta clicking on the title shows the summary and clicking on it again hides the summary. You have to copy the URL to get to the comments. The new /. beta is horrible.

  35. What a world we live in... by JohnStock · · Score: 1

    ..that the first third of that post was designed to avoid any friction with people that might be offended by being classified as old, and not about the subject matter itself. Nevermind, it looks like the story was from the US.

  36. GPG continuing stupidity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think we can all agree GPG has usability problems. Here's a guy who wrote a shellscript to help manage passwords in GPG: https://github.com/drduh/pwd.sh
    Except he includes a "tutorial" in which text appears in a screen and then is gone before it can be read.
    And there's no way to provide feedback on it. What was he thinking?

  37. pardon my spanish, but pffht. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    > Anyone without cognitive impairment or severe physical limitations can use most common user interfaces

    This is exactly the arrogant attitude which leads to the misery we are in. Combine this with "oh, shiny!" and we have a perfect recipe for disaster.

  38. Re:Bad UI... sure it sucks, but does it ruin lives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mom was around Fifty when she got a Temp Job at a Law Firm as a Secretary. They had just installed this Wang System with a bunch of Terminals that nobody knew how to use. Secretaries were still needed during the transition.
    She figured it out. She often doctored her transcripts of Stenotypes or Dictaphones, giving the Lawyers an air of erudition and insight, something that they often lack. She switched to Wang. She quickly became indispensable. And very well liked.
    The Wang System was supposed to cut down costs by eliminating the Secretarial Pool. Mom was quickly made head of the Pool, with no extra pay, since she was a Temp. She Curated the Pool, with doses of Fowler's and Blackie's. (She didn't have much use for the Chicago Manual Of Style. Actually, she held it in contempt.)
    Once the Lawyers got a hold of their Wangs, (Quiet in the Peanut Gallery!), and started typing out their own letters and briefs, it quickly became apparent that a Secretary was not a Toy. They call them Administrative Assistants now. Good ones are valued, and well paid.
    Kelly Girls continued to pay her "Salary" for the next five years, but they were not responsible for, or even had any knowledge of, her Christmas Bonuses, made payable to an Account with the Bank of Ireland.
    Her Retirement Part was a hoot. It was at this party that the Lead Partner, who had become a very good friend, announced that he was retiring too. Mom perhaps had made him look too good.

    A few years later, I was visiting her in her new Cottage in Ireland. I had brought along a Powerbook. I had loaded it up with what I thought was really cool stuff, including an RTE compatible modem, and she wasn't the least bit interested.

    There are a couple of Generations of people to whom a Computer is just a Tool. A not very interesting one at that.

    Mom didn't have a Computer at her Irish Desk. She didn't have a Dictaphone machine or a Rolodex at her desk either. In fact, she didn't even have a desk.
    She still wrote in her spare time in the kitchen, in spidery script on yellow Legal Pads. Scores of them. While in Wicklow, I picked one up, and she gently took it away, saying: "Not for you, boy, not for you." We both burst into laughter then, I was 40 years old.
    About that Bank of Ireland account? A few years later, while sorting through the mess, I found that it was deep into six figures.
    Punts, not dollars.
    Mom never cared for that kind of thing. She had boxes of unopened financial statements, under the kitchen table, where she could rest her feet.

  39. Seriously ruined life by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    Someone got confused by Snapchat (he's not the only one) and sent a video to his entire contact list instead of just his girlfriend. Those should not have been easy to confuse.

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-po...

  40. If Only by freudigst · · Score: 1

    Most user interfaces are murderous enough nowadays without having to blame it on upgrades.

  41. No Substance by rioki · · Score: 1

    This was the longest article that I read that said almost nothing. The TFS is basically "People have problems with modern interfaces, please provide a simple accessible interface." At any point in reading the article I was hoping for some salient details and examples, what does not work and what may be better solutions. But I was disappointing, no details, no analysis, nothing. This article is borderline useless, it is a half mute scream of "something needs to be done", but does not provide any guidance as to what and how.

    1. Re:No Substance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "some salient details and examples"

      To me, anyone with some UI skills and without cognitive difficulties can deduce immediately the practical consequences. If not, maybe UI-design and ergonomy should not be your career.

  42. We have a government specified UI for driving a by Cafe+Alpha · · Score: 1

    car. The steering wheel is mandated, even though a stick would work. Etc.

    1. Re:We have a government specified UI for driving a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please give me the CFR citation that mandates a steering wheel, I don't believe there is one. The fact of the matter is that steering wheels are on cars because they work and everyone know how to use it. If autos were a Microsoft product the location of the pedals and steering device would change every year or two and the automobile would be killing people left and right. Nuff said!

    2. Re:We have a government specified UI for driving a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think so (gov specified). In the beginning of automobilia, there were tillers, sticks, handle bars and wheels for steering. There were all sorts and numbers of levers and pedals used to make them go stop and change gears. A few years ago, the Top Gear guys were in Monte Carlo trying to figure out which car they could park in front of the Hotel de Paris that wouldn't get moved to the valet parking lot across the city (to showcase a more expensive or better looking car). Aston-Martin? Rolls-Royce? Ferrari? Bugatti Veyron? Nope, nope, nope and nope. They drove up in an original 1915 Ford Model T. It was still there when they came out in the morning because the valet staff had no idea how to make it go.

      TopGear - In search of the first car with modern controls and steering
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6YBIHc0LAY

    3. Re:We have a government specified UI for driving a by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. Advance the timing lever to about half.

      2. Advance the throttle lever to about 1/4.

      3. Exit car, go to front, turn crank until engine catches.

      4. Return to driver seat, advance timing and throttle levers, drive away.

      Simple!

      GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!!

  43. problem by SuperDre · · Score: 1

    the biggest problem is, it's very hard to do a good UI, as a good UI means something different to different people, what you might think to be a good UI for you, might be horrible for others..
    Windows 8 is a good example, some people really like the spacious UI and think it's productive, but others think it's a waste of space and could show much more information which doesn't need you to scroll for seeing the same extra information.. Also the settings for instance are way less than what would be more productive for a more advanced user, yes it's enough for a 'dumb' user, but for others it's counterproductive as they need to find the advanced settings which show much more..

    Good UI's are very difficult to do due to the many whishes and habbits of all the users.. Less visible is not always better...

  44. CUAS by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    Common User Access Standard.

    Enough said. ...
    The very first to start breaking the rules on a broad scale was - curiously enough - Apple with their we're-doing-everything-different-this-time iTunes programm. UI standards basically went steeply downhill from there on. We've moved so far away from standards that it can even take an expert weeks to get familiar with programms (s)he should be able to operate instantly. On top of that, the software manual has disappeared (I'm looking at you, Adobe)

    Handling computers has gotten more difficult, no doubt.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  45. Maintenance is also a problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've had first-hand experience of this kind of problem, and it's both sad and painful. An elderly acquaintance who lives some distance from me called in desperation because they wanted to send an email and their local support person was not available in the next day. After half an hour of trying to coax an explanation from them about what they were trying to do and what they could see on the screen (and not just what they *thought* they could see), I concluded that they were using an outdated Flash plugin, their email web service used flash and the browser was blocking the outdated plugin for security purposes.

    I naively tried to help them update – what an awful error. An hour and a half later I had to concede defeat and convinced them to wait for their support person the following day. They only understood just enough to make their email work, but had no concept that they were using a 'browser' (I couldn't even ascertain what they were using) and didn't know what icons, windows or menus meant. All they knew was a rote, "I click here and then type here and then click here and my message is sent". Try to visualise the pain of trying to get someone to download a Flash update (avoiding the crapware Adobe tries to slip in), finding and running it, and then getting back to their email.

    They were genuinely distressed for a variety of reasons: arrangements they had made to meet that evening had changed and they didn't have any other means to communicate; they had already been trying and retrying the email for several hours hoping that maybe the familiar pattern would somehow emerge; they had to cope with my attempts to walk them through all kinds of things they had never seen nor heard of in their life; and on top of all that, they were just plain frail and tired. I could feel their distress and it was heartbreaking to have to say that I couldn't fix it in the end. In the rush to keep up with changing technology and fashion, we've neglected many vulnerable people. We need to do better.

  46. Bad user interfaces have been ruining lives... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... for decades, since the invention of the WIMP system. Most programmers either don't have the time (because the people who employ them don't care enough about interface design to pay them to work on improving interfaces) or don't care about user interfaces.
    The most common complaints are about things which were changed for the sake of change - because some fool employed another fool to actually RUIN their already working and easy to use interface. A case in point: Microsoft with 'The Ribbon', and then 'Metro', two massive failures which should never have got off the drawing board. The problem is that companies like Microsoft pay a large number of people to CHANGE the interface, rather than to IMPROVE it, and since their jobs depend on changing things, that is exactly what they do. Even though most of the time it's for the worse.

  47. It's fashionable.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well over the last several years I've been watching with dismay as, after 'everyone else' has got used to using mice and GUI's - as the general trend still continues to 'dumb down' and change various interface elements, and then to say its an 'update' - this has been happening from almost every platform - and is often ignored by devs or dismissed as streamlining or some other such guff. I remember shaking my head at Ubuntu as they loudly trumpeted this one release as being focussed on ease of use .. which seemed to consist of overly large desktop icons (aka Fisher Price) because users are dumb, hidden menubars or something requiring an arcane keypress-with-mouse to enable (accessibility FAIL as new users rarely (if ever) know or use keystrokes in a GUI environment) and then expected these new users to start some software by typing in what looked like a bash shell on the desktop to start humble programs.

    This hiding of features we all want and expect HAS TO STOP . Sure tighten up the code, but dont screw the UI and kill discoverability. Geez.

    and don't get me started on filling the various OS up with crap and daemons / social networking crap by default .....

  48. Recent experience by Geeky · · Score: 1

    I have recent experience of this. My 71 year old father recently got his first ever computer. I've been around computers since the days of the ZX Spectrum, have used everything from DOS, most flavours of Windows, OS X and Linux, so it was a real eye opener to see how difficult it is for someone with absolutely no previous experience.

    He's intelligent and willing to learn, but even basic concepts take a lot of time to get across. I'm lucky in that he lives reasonably close to me, so I can show him things. Trouble is, he's got a Windows 8.1 laptop, and even I find that frustrating and counter intuitive. I thought it might be easier for someone with no previous expectations - he's never used other versions, so the changes shouldn't bother him - but the mix of metro and desktop applications is just so counter intuitive. I had tried nudging him towards a macbook, but he couldn't justify the price difference. Perhaps a chrome book would have suited him better, but it might have been too limiting.

    I dread Windows 10 and having to start again, I know that. User friendly is only user friendly if you're already familiar with computers, but I suppose it's a problem that will fix itself when the generation that never used them dies out.

    --
    Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
  49. Absolutely. by dtmos · · Score: 1

    [T]he reason why older people don't use the technologies is because they suck, are intrusive, unreliable and fleeting.

    This. I was born in the 1950s, when dirt was still relatively new, and this is exactly it. When one first sees new software and UI technologies as a young person, understanding them is an end in itself. After 50 years of watching them come and go, however, I am tired of the technology of the month, and instead find myself using something stable that will allow me to get my "real" work done -- that being the point of software, after all.

    Learning to use a good software tool once is a useful and rewarding experience. Being condemned to a lifetime of re-learning to use the same tool every year just because some idiot changed the UI, not so much. (Sisyphus would understand.)

    I sometimes ask these UI wizards what they think would happen if I moved the keys on their keyboards around with every software release, in response to the latest theories on typing speed and accuracy, and perhaps added and/or subtracted a few just, well, just because I thought it would be a good idea. If one is, say, ten years old and just learning to touch-type, perhaps the new keyboard layout indeed would be better. However, the installed base of zillions of users that are used to, and expected to see, the old keyboard arrangement would be totally hosed, and would need to retrain themselves just to get back to the productivity levels they had before I "helped" them. Do you really, really want to do this kind of thing to your customers? Repetitively?

    I am always amused to find that the same programmers that gleefully shuffle, delete, and obfuscate menus and other UI features for their users strenuously object if you even suggest taking away their precious Dvorak, XP, or simple QWERTY keyboards -- let alone, say, reverse the order of the bottom row of keys, transpose the T and H keys, and move the "@" symbol so that it is now CTRL - ALT - ].

    1. Re:Absolutely. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When one first sees new software and UI technologies as a young person, understanding them is an end in itself. After 50 years of watching them come and go, however, I am tired of the technology of the month, and instead find myself using something stable that will allow me to get my "real" work done -- that being the point of software, after all.

      Very well put. Some of the "tech of the month" comes from this being a young field. When cars were new, there were several different pedal arrangements, and you might have to adjust ignition timing while driving. But cars matured. You got standardized "interfaces" and the harder parts were automated away. Still, history has examples of stupid car control layouts.

      The problem with computers is that you can change the interface so easily, with no cost to the sw manufacturer. And some of them is under the delusion that they have to provide visible differences to get people to buy. You can't see that the new sw is "64-bit" for example. But you see the new button style.

      Some of this churn can be avoided with non-commercial systems like linux. I started using it in the late nineties, and went with a user interface called icewm. I still use it - no reason to change. There are many newer alternatives (gnome and KDE in particular), but I have no need. So I keep using icewm, and the buttons and menus keeps staying where I expect them to be. Nobody forces changes on me, other than the higher-resolution screens. This is the beauty of an open system. The underlying operating system is updated weekly for security reasons, but I can keep using the first interface I learned. Others who came to linux at different times, can keep the interface of their era. Or experiment with newer stuff if they like.

      Learning to use a good software tool once is a useful and rewarding experience. Being condemned to a lifetime of re-learning to use the same tool every year just because some idiot changed the UI, not so much.

      Could not agree more. Find something that works for you, and stick to that. Playing around with alternatives can be fun for a little while - but that gets old faster than we do. Which is why so much commercial software fall by the wayside. They keep changing and eventually dies from it. While I can use a pre-1997 "look and feel" on an up-to-date machine.

    2. Re:Absolutely. by gfxguy · · Score: 1

      I sometimes ask these UI wizards what they think would happen if I moved the keys on their keyboards around with every software release, in response to the latest theories on typing speed and accuracy, and perhaps added and/or subtracted a few just, well, just because I thought it would be a good idea. If one is, say, ten years old and just learning to touch-type, perhaps the new keyboard layout indeed would be better. However, the installed base of zillions of users that are used to, and expected to see, the old keyboard arrangement would be totally hosed, and would need to retrain themselves just to get back to the productivity levels they had before I "helped" them.

      And when they complain, you can blame them for being archaic and wanting to stifle progress, that it's for their own good, and ultimately tell them "you're engineers, if you don't like it then build your own keyboards!" Because, of course, nobody is actually trying to do their work or anything.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    3. Re:Absolutely. by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      Sometimes a different UI is mandated due to stupid copy right rules.

    4. Re:Absolutely. by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      if I moved the keys on their keyboards around

      It already happened.. On _new_ keyboards, "control" used to be left of "a", and escape used to be in the upper left of the main section of the keyboard (next to '1').

      Thankfully, via software I can make the useless caps lock key control when I have to use OTHER keyboards.. Those other keyboards still don't have the right key feel, so I am using an "Apple Keyboard" with an ADBUSB converter on this retina iMac.. (Along with a Kensington TurboMouse..)

  50. Re:Bad UI... sure it sucks, but does it ruin lives by Geeky · · Score: 1

    The trouble is, it's so hard to function now without web access. My father recently got his first computer at 71. His reason? So much information is now only available on the web, or using the internet saves you money. So without a computer he'd have been cut off from society in a way that wasn't true even ten years ago. So much is now internet only that your life is certainly much harder without it - maybe not "ruined", but certainly difficult.

    --
    Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
  51. Customer vs Product by kevingolding2001 · · Score: 1

    I have first hand experience with these sorts of issues. I set up a web email account for my mother and taught her how to use it. It wasn't long before icons and menus started moving around and she got confused.
    Lately this particular email provider has completely changed how things worked so that even savvy users have problems with it.
    However at the end of day my mother and I are not the customers, we are the product, and Marissa will of course of do what is in the best interests of the actual paying customers. It sucks, but I don't see it changing while advertising is the only workable business model of the internet (even porn is really just 'advertising of porn', which is why you get these endless pits of porn link farms (or so I've been told)).

    1. Re:Customer vs Product by Sharkford · · Score: 1

      I set my elderly Mom up with Thunderbird precisely because I knew any web interface would be so variable, I'd be unable to talk her through it a week after I left her with it. (Plus, of course, the ads, which are deliberately contrived to mimic UI elements). Added bonus, I could change her back-end e-mail service without changing her UI.

      She's having ongoing issues with features on her TV remote control because of a very specific design decision: for both the volume and the input-select button, the first press brings up the on-screen display for that feature, but doesn't actually change it. If you don't press the button again for a few seconds, the OSD disappears and the feature remains unchanged. If you actually want to change the volume or cycle through the inputs, you need to press it in sequence within a few seconds. She really has a hard time doing that, and I get calls to the effect of "the tv is stuck on the dvd and I can't get it back on the satellite box". It's partly physiological (92-year-old fingers don't move very fast, and don't point very accurately) but also cognitive, because she didn't grow up with machines that worked like that. A typewriter puts an A on the page once for each time you press it, no matter how long it was since the last time.

      -S

  52. Great Audio if only it had a UI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Skype.

  53. What does the 'X' in 'UX' mean? by davide+marney · · Score: 1

    So, the letter "X" is supposed to stand for user "experience". But honestly, who would choose that letter to represent that word, or even that concept?

    The problem begins at the very root. As long as people think the goal is to design some thing, and not to serve some one, then we will continue to disrespect the user by doing stupid things like throwing away a perfectly good interface and forcing everyone to change all at once.

    I wish to dear heaven that everyone in my business would always provide a minimalist interface to everything as an option. It wouldn't be expensive, because you'd never have to change it.

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
    1. Re:What does the 'X' in 'UX' mean? by caseih · · Score: 1

      Where are my mod points when I need them! This is exactly right. I've thought the same thing ever since the hipster term, "UX" was introduced in the last couple of years. It's not even a matter of introducing new functionality. It's change for the sake of change. It's like developers get together at the local coffee shop and brainstorm new strange ways of doing common tasks and then they foist them on the world without any usability research, or watching how people actually use their computers. Because everyone should be as cool as they are. I can think of no other explanation for changes that firefox made, for example. I don't think the present class of "user experience" thinking is going to stand the test of time. Had UX people been in charge of cars or airplanes, we'd still be messing with with function goes on what pedal, or what controls should be linked together on the yoke. Would be a nightmare. Rudder isn't that important so lets put it on a blue knob behind the pilot's head. We don't use it, so we doubt anyone does either.

      Maybe the UX teams at places like Mozilla don't know that real people use Firefox as a tool to get their work done, and constantly messing with it interferes with our ability to do what we need to do. It's not that change can never be done, but that change has to be done in the context of understanding what the end users' purposes are. MS certainly understood that for years with Windows, only to forget it when introducing Windows 8.

  54. Bad UIs can definitely ruin lives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looking at you, ribbon bar! :P

    1. Re:Bad UIs can definitely ruin lives by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      This.

      Also, look at Cadence.

      The sad thing is that what I generally see is that when poor user interfaces get updated these days it goes through some sort of committee of "experts" who design something even worse and more obfuscated. MS Word and Excel were poor before, but now they are just about unusable even after using them with the Ribbon for a few years.

  55. Interface Design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I write and maintain a web based facility management system. It does corrective work orders, pm work orders, space management, key management and a host of other things. I have been working on this product for 10 +years.

    I have learned the following, set up a simple user interface and never ever change it. The times I have made a change to the interface it has always caused a riot among the users. I can disable functionality and the users will not get as upset. A user is a person who has a paid subscription to the system. In other words they pay for the privilege of using the system. Because of that I listen very carefully to the users.

    The interface is a basic old time inverted "L". There is a module name, return to main page link and some status info across the top of the page. The left hand side occupies 15% of the screen has all the links for a module. There are no hidden menus, fly outs or pop ups on the left hand side. Navigation is simply click on the left, and the response appears on the right hand 85% of the screen. All links on the left hand side are always available all the time. This reduces the occurrence of the age old question, how did I get here?

    The interface looks good on 600 x 800 px screens and larger. Yes I have customers who still use crappy monitors. This flexibility also means that I do not have to worry about variations in physical screen size either. If the screen is larger than 7" diagonal the interface works well.

    I find when the system is demoed the sales guys here things like, it looks old. So the sales guys say, do you want to see everything you need or do you want to waste time hunting for what you need in a cool looking interface? You are going to be looking at this for a long time. The heads nod and you hear things like I never thought about that.

    The overwhelming word I get from users is we like the inverted "L" do not change it. When asked users will routinely tell you that they hate fly outs and other features that change when you move you mouse over them. I have seen web sites that have so many on hover features that they look like a box of Mexican jumping beans. So much stuff is jumping, popping and changing color that you cannot read the page and see what is happening. Two particularly bad examples are http://www.nationalreview.com/ and http://www.wunderground.com

    We all seem to live enslaved to the feature creature. We have to lean to stop adding stuff just because the stuff is cool.

  56. Re:Bad UI... sure it sucks, but does it ruin lives by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

    My mom doesn't have one of those new-fangled computers and doesn't need it. Except for all the stuff I've ordered online for her, and the occasional account I've set up so she can get some discount or other.

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  57. Best example I've been given by PPalmgren · · Score: 1

    We all know that person, usually older, who only does actions on the computer via memorizing the exact steps. To understand how they're thinking and how hazy the rest of the UI to them is, recall the last time you had to give instructions to them on the phone without a computer in front of you to reference. Its hard as hell. This is how they're parsing steps, blind to anything outside the steps.

    Sadly, this is commonly result of having a crutch available (you). They know they can just call you and not think. I try not to respond to my mom's and grandmother's requests for at least two to three hours, and they figure out 75% of them on their own this way. I also engage them when helping by pointing out the problem and asking them where they think they should go given their current situation. Its greatly reduced their reliance on me and increased their skill with using computers.

  58. teach the concept, not the route by markhahn · · Score: 1

    Isn't it obvious that most of the problem is when people learn GUI procedurally? Rather than learning the GUI concept and visual language? Yes, the visual language changes somewhat, but not dramatically (a little flatter, etc).

    Accessibility is important, but it pertains to issues of icon size, readability. Sanity of UI matters too (whether normal workflow requires a lot of click-sequences). But the main issue here is that no one should ever use a computer procedurally. Letting them do so may seem effective, but none of our systems are appliance-like (in the sense of fixed-function/interface). Yes, if someone only ever uses a computer for one thing, it may seem pointless to explain the concept of GUIs, but it's also necessary.

    1. Re:teach the concept, not the route by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      UI people are pretty universally full of crap.

      Icons are chosen that make no sense. Diskette for save, a gear for simulating an electrical circuit, etc.

      So far the UI people I have encountered in the technical world are raging disasters, but they are VERY confident in their claims. My favorite was working for a test and measurement company where all the software bozos remote logged into the instruments to test their code. The instrument had a touch screen interface that was just about unusable as a result, but using a mouse was hobbled by the assumption that the cursor was as big as a human finger and would snap to things many pixels from your click.

      The best user interfaces seem to be designed by people who are fed up with a tool and rewrite themselves. Innevitably if they are successful they get bought out and their efficient interfaces get "improved" by the committee. It reminds me of Animal Farm...

    2. Re:teach the concept, not the route by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Lots of people here think computers and computer systems are interesting in themselves, and have picked up a great deal of knowledge over the years. That attitude is a lot less common in the population as a whole. You're proposing, essentially, that people who want to do something on a computer should study something they're not interested in for a couple of weeks. That's not going to happen.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  59. Learning Issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a learning issue. People aren't learning HOW software works, just how to perform task y with software x. That's a recipe for disaster in any context, not just IT. To use computers, people need a basic understanding of HOW it works. That will allow them to figure things out when they get confused. Anything less will eventually cause problems.

  60. UI errors are not limited to software. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a credible theory that Gore lost the presidential election because the printed ballot contest was split across pages in a confusing manner. Pat Buchanan the notorious anti-semite got a unusually large number of votes in Broward county despite a large elderly Jewish population. The election was then close enough to produce a legal challenge and the Federal Supreme Court over-ruled the Florida Court so Bush won.

    1. Re:UI errors are not limited to software. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Historical correction: Bush did not "win", he was appointed by the Fed when Florida law still had viable legal procedures for this situation that the Feds preempted.

      Let's hear it for States Rights (unless they get in our way). - GOP mantra

      Just imagine the 2000s without president G. W. Bush...

  61. And its opened up a huge market by RevWaldo · · Score: 1

    Search any technology with "for seniors" after it and you'll find companies designing products with them in mind. Like this tablet, for instance:

    http://www.techhive.com/articl...

    The company that starts a branded line of electronic products and services with simple/familiar and definitely rarely updated interfaces is going to make a nice chunk of change.

    A quick rant. One thing I'd like to see personally are beepers for seniors. Knew a senior (now passed) who lived well enough alone but was often unreachable because she would never use or charge her simple cellphone and would sometimes not hang up the house phone properly. I figure Get her a beeper! Runs for over a month on two AAAs! She can just leave it on in her purse and we could always beep her and have her call us. And she was a retired nurse, so she'd be familiar with the technology. But by the mid-2000s beepers had gone the way of the dodo.

    .

    1. Re:And its opened up a huge market by TsuruchiBrian · · Score: 1

      I'm sure seniors would love a device that never has it's UI updated. The problem is that when you are first buying this device, it will no doubt have a very (probably too) old UI due to the fact that it's rarely updated. So in an effort to keep 90 year old seniors happy, the 80 year old senior needs to use a 10 year old UI.

      And as difficult as it may be to use a newer UI than you are used to, it is even more difficult to use an older UI than you are used to.

      If a senior had never used a computer before, chances are, they will find the modern UIs of IOS and android more usable than DOS, or windows 3.1 or windows 95. They are far more intuitive. This is why babies can use tablets before they can talk.

      Not to mention the fact that old software often requires old hardware due to lack of backwards compatibility, this really leaves people requiring old software in a bad position. Having older software also typically leaves you vulnerable to security problems, which really mess up a user experience.

      I think the better approach is to train seniors on the latest technology, so that they have as long as possible before they are forced to upgrade.

      I just got my elderly uncle a tablet. He was used to his old beige windows XP computer, but it finally died. He was very skeptical that he'd be able to learn the new machine. But after 3 months he'd really leraned to love it. He could use the tablet lying down, which was good for his back. He could put the tablet right up to his face to see it better. It was more responsive. I don't even think he could remember how to use his old windows XP computer anymore even if it were revived.

      It's not even like my uncle is a proficient tablet user. He's not. He can do the 4 things he used to do on his old computer (read news, play chess, skype, and email) and that's it. But the struggle he would have to go through just to do the things he already knew how to do made learning a new and easier thing not so bad by comparison.

  62. I am surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am surprised that no one mentioned Windows specifically. From Win7 to Win8 was a huge change in the UI, and a disastrous one at that. Even between XP Pro SP2 ans XP Pro SP3 there were changes that were totally unnecessary. One example (of several): In SP2 it was easy to disable autoplay when a CD was inserted. In SP3 that function was hidden in a totally unexpected spot. With each new version of Windows, the UI is worse, with more hidden from the user.

    Changing things just because you can is always bad! make things faster, make them work better, but leave the UI alone!

  63. So stay off webmail. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Use a proper IMAP client. Problem solved.

  64. phones by pedz · · Score: 1

    "ruin" is way too strong a word for my situation but phone service has declined to the point that I can not use it. I have a slight speech impediment. If you were to talk to me in person, you might have a slight difficulty but usually people do fine. In the 1980s, the real phones with real wires, people preferred talking on the phone to talking to me in person. The clarity was very good and the slight amplification that the system provided along with the added focus of being on a phone helped. But today, the voice quality is awful and no one seems to care. The concept of side tone is lost and gone thus causing people to scream into their phones. The concept of accurate microphones and speakers is lost. The idea of a phone that conforms to your head is lost. Now we have flat phones without side tone and extremely lossy connections. The other place is with all the voice activated stuff. Sure does look fun but it doesn't even vaguely begin to work with me. Again, I would never use the word "ruined" but it does leave me feeling left out.

  65. like google maps used to work until... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Two words: google maps. 'nuff said. Used to work until someone decided to stick a popup thingy in the middle of the map - not even aligned with the left edge. It makes me crazy every time I use it and I can no longer go back.

    Who ARE these cruel, heartless people? Hackers who aced CS classes and the Google interview but don't know any actual people? Sheesh.

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