Lenovo Will Sell Ubuntu Laptops In India

puddingebola notes the news, as carried by Tom's Hardware, that Lenovo will soon ship laptops preloaded with Ubuntu in India. "The first of these systems will be the Lenovo Thinkpad L450, featuring only one of two CPUs, but the selection may widen over time and expand to other countries ...Overall, switching to Ubuntu reduces the system cost considerably. Currently, the standard L450 system with Windows 8.1 Pro utilizing a Core i3, 4 GB of RAM, and a 500 GB HDD costs 59724 INR ($943.02 USD). An Ubuntu version of the system with the same hardware specs, however, will only cost 48000 INR ($757.91 USD).

Comments

I doubt the hardware is identical

[ITRambo]

The price difference is over three times what Lenovo pays for Windows Pro. I find it hard to believe that the two machines have identical Core i3 models. The link to Tom's Hardware only states that the Ubuntu version is a Core i3 500U while the Windows machine specs does not state the CPU model.

Re:I doubt the hardware is identical

[alvinrod]

It does seem rather unlikely that a copy of Windows is being billed/valued at $185.11 or that Microsoft would even charge anywhere near that much, especially considering how much they've been lowering their product cost in order to stay price competitive lately.

Re:I doubt the hardware is identical

[guruevi]

Some countries don't allow bundling or selling stuff under it's market value in order to prevent monopolies. In those cases, MS would have to sell Windows licenses at full price.

Re:I doubt the hardware is identical

[unixisc]

In India, all software is pirated. You have to explicitly request unpirated software in order to get it. At least, that's the case w/ Windows 7: not sure that Windows 8 is pirated, but at least in India, Windows 8 is no less expensive than Windows 7 the way it was in the US.

Re:I doubt the hardware is identical

[wvmarle]

Market value... very ambiguous. What is the actual market value of a product? The regular retail price? The cnf price (not really applicable to software which doesn't have shipping cost)? Or some wholesale price? All these prices one could argue to be "market value".

Of these, retail price would be the worst, as it would effectively lead to government-supported price fixing. Manufacturer states retail price as "market value" and all have to sell at that price.

Re:I doubt the hardware is identical

[Tough Love]

Microsoft tries really hard to get $100/machine from the vendors, I seem to recall a powerpoint leaked about that some years back. Anyway, there's also the Linux efficiency factor: you can just do a lot more with a Linux based machine than a MSFT one.

Re:I doubt the hardware is identical

[KGIII]

I really can't think of a place where that is true really. I have yet to find something that I do on Linux that I can not functionally perform on Windows. I even have access to some of the Windows source. I can not read Windows source code. I can do that with Linux. I do not. That is not a function though. What can you not do on Windows?

Re:I doubt the hardware is identical

[amiga3D]

That is the point. You force the same price to everyone. I can't say as I think it's right but it might be the only way to deal with shit companies like microsoft.

Re:I doubt the hardware is identical

[wvmarle]

Still the question: what is "market value"?

Microsoft may simply say that the market value of a certain version of Windows (say a Laptop Edition) is $10 for a copy, and that this is to be sold pre-installed on hard disk only. Then they have the Full Version - this is sold to retailers at $100 a copy, in fancy box with CD, making the market value of this version at $100. It's easy to argue that this are different versions of the software. They may even add/remove functionality to these versions. Different product, different price.

Or how about MS declaring the market value of the software to be $10, with digital distribution, and then selling the installation keys to OEM manufacturers only with restrictions on resale (only to be sold bundled with something else). Then if MS sells the same with box and CD to retailers at $100, that'd be above market value, right? That $90 extra would cover the cost of the box design, the material for box/CD and printing cost, the transport cost, handling, etc.

Figuring out what "market value" for a product should be is ambiguous and arbitrary at best. Just look at those "anti-dumping" charges the US likes to put on various Chinese made products. The US government declares these products to be sold at "lower than market value" or "lower than cost" - no idea how the US government can really know the cost of production of a Chinese company.

Re:I doubt the hardware is identical

[guruevi]

The way it works in some European countries (at least it did ~10 years ago, don't know if the EU changed these rules), but you would have to sell the software with no further restrictions at a set price regardless of your customer.

Microsoft couldn't bundle or tie the software to a hardware or person; they couldn't sell just to a certain company or set of companies, they couldn't even limit the resale or number of times it was reinstalled on different machines (as long as it didn't exceed the licensed number of concurrent installations) - copyright as it was intended, the customers retained their rights. Even a EULA couldn't break the customers' right.

The market value is what the software cost Microsoft including labor, localization, support, marketing, printing and pressing the media etc. They couldn't sell the software for less than what it cost them to do all of that on a local basis given a projected number of sales (you could make a loss only if your product flopped).

And it wasn't just Microsoft, no company could do these things. No special promotions or sales or loss leaders, it simply is too uncompetitive for a grocery store to push out the local ones by selling under value because they got more money to survive longer.

will they stop calling about my Windows machine?

[turkeydance]

i can only hope.

India??

[Dega704]

Well when the hell are you going to sell Linux Thinkpads in the U.S., Lenovo? I had to settle for buying an x131e Chromebook and flashing the firmware.

And what is with this 'Cheaper alternative' nonsense? Last I checked, Linux users don't choose it because they are cheapskates; if anything they are more likely to buy higher end hardware

Disclaimer: I am fully aware that there is probably a higher demand in India, but I still had to rant.

Re:India??

[sumdumass]

I don't think Linux users is the intended market here. It's more likely a move to get lower income people to purchase. They might keep linux installed or void the warranty and install some pirated windows version. When i say void the warranty, I mean disqualify the setup for support and make it difficult to get warranty support (because the diagnostic utilities don't run right in user supplied operating systems ).

Re:India??

[Gavagai80]

$750 laptops can't be aimed at lower-income people, especially in India. I've never paid as much as $750 for a computer in my life, my laptop was around $300 and my desktop around $250.

Re:India??

[Threni]

You're getting really shit hardware for $250-300. Perhaps an ultraplastic piece of shit. Unless your idea of developing is using notepad to ponce around with small html files, you won't be doing any serious development on it.

Re:India??

[unixisc]

But the target market in India ain't developers, nor is it Linux sys adms or RHCT students (okay, maybe the last). It's the low income people, and for that, $750 is out of budget, as GP said. Even $300 - that translates into Rs 18k, which is way beyond what anybody there will spend on a computer. For India, you want to put together an entire system within $150 - and then, it'll reach the normal computer buyers. If you wanna aim something at the poor, you'd need to put together a computer for $50. Maybe a R-Pi w/ a cheap monitor and Linux might work.

Re:India??

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

Not an Indian. But looking at the income numbers you mentioned, it seems that this is the market that can best be served by tablets, unless you happen to be a poor software developer who needs a full-blown Intel-based PC to do your stuff. Developers are the minority of minorities. I'm probably being economically biased here, but the more successful developers probably come from background that can afford to buy $300 computers (since developing good software requires some good education that requires $$$ as well).

If the goal is to provide up-to-date information/education to the masses then a tablet or even a mid-range smartphone is the way to go. And the problem isn't so much about personal hardware but telecommunications infrastructure (presence of wifi hotspots or reliable but fairly cheap 3g/4g).

Re:India??

[wvmarle]

People doing development work on their laptop are a tiny minority in this world (/. is not representative for this world).

Most people use their laptop for browsing, e-mail (if not in the browser), playing a movie, organising their photos, and maybe typing a resume or so. That's about it. For those people, pretty low-end hardware will do just fine.

I've always gotten myself low-end (cheap) hardware. Last year's models. Doing fine, I can do all of the above (which is probably >90% of the time I spend with the computer), and develop web pages, and fiddle with FreeCAD and even Blender though the latter is pushing it. I'm not however doing enough serious work with it to spend a lot of money to make these application go a little faster. It's not worth it for me. I can wait a few more seconds for a quick render, and the final renders well that takes maybe an hour or two... when I'm sleeping.

Re:India??

[Blaskowicz]

But before laptops were cheap hardly anyone bought them. They became a consumer item about 10 years ago or so.

Re:India??

[exomondo]

And what is with this 'Cheaper alternative' nonsense? Last I checked, Linux users don't choose it because they are cheapskates

That's certainly supposed to be the idea, in fact cost shouldn't be the issue at all. End user funded development should be encouraged otherwise the majority of development comes from the corporate interests that pay for it. The consumer end is just driven by hobbyists.

Seems a bit expensive

[paul_metcalfe]

And I'm a "wealthy" European.

What's with the prices?

[rsilvergun]

I3 with 4gb and 500 gigs? I can get that here for $300. $600 if it's "business class"...

Re:What's with the prices?

[unixisc]

Precisely. Due to work, I had to buy a new laptop, and so got an Acer Pentium w/ 4GB and 500GB. Cost was $250 (incl tax). At Microcenter. In India, all computers are directly imported from Chiwan, and they treat the Indian market like their domestic one, not like the hugely prized US market.

Re:What's with the prices?

[Blaskowicz]

High end laptop with low end hardware and mid end price might be something very desirable, though. Low heat and good cooling, good keyboard, good display (even if not very high res - a great 1600x900 would be about right), good hinges, good battery life (in last place because virtually everyone uses a laptop with the power supply plugged in)

And it's still closer to a video editing workstation than something to do word processing on. Though I'd like it better with 8GB RAM and 2TB HDD (or 4GB RAM and 2TB HDD).
Well I guess you referred to the idea as "business class".

Xubuntu isn't so bad

[tepples]

Set sail for fail!

If you're referring to the perceived widespread dislike for the Unity desktop environment, it takes about four commands in a terminal to clear that up:

sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade
sudo apt-get remove superfish
sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop

Re:Xubuntu isn't so bad

[hairyfeet]

Uhhh and how many of the average users that will end up buying these laptops will know the archaic terminal commands required to pull this off?

The FOSS fans can get pissy all they want but this is SUPPOSED to be a user friendly OS and when the simple changes require a fucking terminal and knowledge of a bunch of CLI? I'm sorry but your OS has FAILED to perform its designated task, which is to be "user friendly". this is why Like it or Not Linux was, is, and always shall be a server OS with just a very thin veneer of pretense at being a desktop.

CLI is a server admin tool, an ancient GUI from the 1970s that is not intuitive, discoverable and requires rote memorization to perform even basic tasks. Server admins prefer it because it is really good at 2 tasks, 1.- Scripting and 2.- repeatedly performing the same tasks thousands of times...guess what your average user has pretty much no need of? If you said scripting and performing the exact same task the same way thousands of times, why you'd be right!

MSFT,GOOG,and APPL has spent hundreds of millions (in the case of GOOG the last figure I saw was over 1.2 billion per year on Android and ChomeOS) to make OSes that are intuitive, discoverable, and easy to pick up. Linux? I'm sorry but after 10 years of dealing with Linux I can state that Linux is the bad knock off you get from China Mart, your "AirPhone 5S" or "Wii Wii" in that on the surface it looks very similar, in fact a fresh install will leave the user hard pressed to tell if its the "real thing" or not...but let that user actually use the thing for awhile, or God forbid update the thing? they quickly find out its not in the same league. This is why I have zero doubt that in 12 years the "Hairyfeet Challenge" will celebrate 20 years of no "user friendly" Linux passing, even though its really just a test of the most basic functionality like "update the OS without crapping on the drivers", but even these simple tests strip away the veneer and show Linux' true colors.

So if you want a web server or to build a render farm? Then by all means use Linux, as a server OS its great at those tasks, but as a desktop? I'm sorry but its simply not able to compete with a modern desktop in 2015, and I have zero doubt the reason they are using it in India is simply because trialware companies (which actually makes putting Windows on a laptop in the west a money earner instead of a cost) simply don't want to give any money to get users that per capita make so little compared to the west so in this particular use case it was cheaper to use any of the free OSes. In a way similar to how they sell FreeDOS systems in China because they know the piracy is so high the OS will simply be replaced by a pirated Windows....hmm, I wonder how many of these will be running Windows within days of leaving the store? If its less than 80% I'll be really surprised.

Re:Xubuntu isn't so bad

[Tough Love]

sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop

FTFY. Seriously, KDE is pretty smooth these days. Never mind that kmail fell down and can't get up, likewise anything that has anything to do with akonadi or ever did. Somehow, those epic fiascos don't seem to affect the experience much any more, and KDE has finally clawed its way back to where 3.5 was: you don't think about it, just do stuff, and it manages the windows without surprises and not a lot of configuring. Like 3.5 but prettier and a few creature comforts.

Re:Xubuntu isn't so bad

[Tough Love]

Uhhh and how many of the average users that will end up buying these laptops will know the archaic terminal commands required to pull this off?

In India? A lot. Minds not as lazy, you see. But you're already off on a tangent. Configuring a decent, easy desktop environment and base system is the responsibility of the vendor. Of course as a user its always nice to know that you can reconfigure it any way you want, because that's just how debian->ubuntu is.

Re:Xubuntu isn't so bad

[KGIII]

I just can not like KDE or its derivatives. I am not a huge fan of Gnome either. I do like Cinnamon a great deal though and I seem to recall that it sort of forked off of Gnome. The KDE is just too... Well, it tries too much to be something it isn't or, maybe, something it should not be. It is hard to articulate and entirely subjective. I offer not one shred of evidence to claim one is better than the other - nor do I offer a suggestion that I insinuate such. Instead I simply prefer the Cinnamon environment.

Re:Xubuntu isn't so bad

[tepples]

Translation into non-technical language: "If you don't like Unity, you can try other desktop environments such as KDE Plasma and Xfce by installing them through Ubuntu Software Center." The difference is that Windows Store doesn't have alternative DEs.

Re:Pop-ups nagging the user to join a mailing list

[tepples]

Noscript, two adblockers, and requestpolicy or policeman.

And how easy would it be for a less-technical user to manage a NoScript whitelist?

Oh, and set your Firefox to block popups. Sounds like you must have disabled that.

These aren't "pop-ups" in the sense of opening new windows or new tabs; they're modal dialogs within the page.

Re:To whom will they sell these to?

[AK Marc]

There are more millionaires in India than Russia

Re: Microsoft needs a CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

You're trolling right? The CEO of Microsoft is a native of India. He grew up there before moving to the US.

Re:To whom will they sell these to?

[rtb61]

Hardly surprising there are more millionaires in India than in Russia, as there are many more peasants who can be ruthlessly exploited in India than in Russia and if fact try to do in Russia what you can get away with in India (in terms of what is charged to customers for workers labour compared to what is paid to workers for their actual labour and the working conditions they are forced to work in or starve) and you likely would be, prosecuted or killed. This is likely to make Russia safer for business than India because inevitably that exploitation will explode in the faces of the millionaire exploiters class and when those Indians get fired up in mob mentality they can become really destructive (hence growing levels or censorship in India).

Re:I smell a fish here

[Zontar The Mindless]

I've been using Linux on the desktop for over 10 years. I've never had any problems. I'm able to do all the things I wanted to do. I've no headache with downloading drivers, failing security patches, antivirus software that makes my PC cripple as if it is a 20 years old PC that tries to run the latest software.

I just do whatever I need to do, and I do my work on my Linux desktop whenever I'm able to work from home. There is no problem with installing the latest development tools without getting nagged about licenses issues.

The year of the Linux desktop is already established. And even more, there is plenty of choice, and if you really want to keep running an outdated version of a distribution, what 'security' issues will you encounter by not upgrading?

Nope for me, and many others, Linux on the desktop is a long established fact.

I came here to say exactly the same thing.

You're probably right that Windows is the most sold operating system. But looking at the many cheap PC's out there that run Windows, they're aren't doing anything worthwhile. They just browse the internet and do some emails and stuff.

Most of which could be done just as easily using a tablet or phone.

Re:I smell a fish here

[jones_supa]

I've been using Linux on the desktop for over 10 years. I've never had any problems.

Sure... and my uncle is Santa Claus.

Re: I smell a fish here

[sanf780]

I have been doing my job on GNU/Linux for almost 10 years. Surely I have not been using the latest OS, but that is something I do not mind in most cases. After all, it is the software that sets which version of RHEL you must use. Otherwise, you lose the vendor support.
My main gripe is that most users are given a laptop in order to use the latest and greatest from Microsoft: Office, SharePoint, Lync/Skype for business, Project. I hate laptops for work. They are expensive, generally slower, takes space from the desk... The only thing I can think of is that laptops consume less power.

Re:Makes Sense

[Blaskowicz]

Which ubuntu flavor? Unity sucks unless you're only launching Firefox, LibreOffice and the file manager (which might be good enough for many people still).
For everything else the GUI requires you to type the program's name instead of selecting it from a menu. Which is braindead, especially if you don't know what's installed.

Re:Pop-ups nagging the user to join a mailing list

[KGIII]

They struggle with it? It is usually a dialogue over the system tray. It does not even steal focus.

Re:Pop-ups nagging the user to join a mailing list

[Blaskowicz]

As a DOS/Windows old timer I can set it up so it is very decent. In fact, a huge flaw of Windows Update is that it may get stuck and not install or offer updates, or fail to find them if you ask it to search.

If you come across a random Windows 7 laptop though, you pretty much should format it first because malware has rigged it so that trying to get rid of it is pointless (hell, you can even trigger countermeasures that will make the situation worse. And Windows Update might be disabled by the malware too)

Installing warez Windows 7 is safer : torrent some iso with patches built-in up to a few monthes ago (people don't even have install media for their legit Windows anyway)
Then choice of software is paramount (and you should only download them from the author's site or use ninite)
I know, "friends don't help friends install microsoft software" but sometimes there's that one vital piece of software, or e.g. VIA graphics. Else the latest Mint with Mate is great (and makes a single core PC fast as it's meant to, not a slide show)

Re:I smell a fish here

[Blaskowicz]

A tablet or phone, most likely running Android is the only thing worse than a Windows PC. The OS itself is malware.

Ubuntu's Value is Now What They Can Do for Mint

[BrendaEM]

Mint is the new Ubuntu.
Ubuntu is the new Fedora.
Fedora is the new Redhat.
Redhat is the new Novell Linux.

Automating the package manager

[tepples]

the simple changes require a fucking terminal and knowledge of a bunch of CLI

"Require" in what way? The first two steps can be done from Software Updater, and the last two from Ubuntu Software Center. It just takes longer to explain, takes longer to perform, and can't be automated through the clipboard. How would you recommend automating package acquisition and installation on your own favorite desktop PC operating system?

guess what your average user has pretty much no need of? If you said scripting and performing the exact same task the same way thousands of times, why you'd be right!

To me, certain system configuration tasks are "the exact same task the same way thousands of times", performed once on each of thousands of machines by each machine's owner.

thousand bucks? jeez

[Osgeld]

you can buy a i3 HP with 6 gigs and a 720 gig hard drive for less than 400 bucks brand new... AT BESTBUY

why is this chunk of shit Lenovo so expensive

Re:I smell a fish here

[Osgeld]

I installed fedora a few weeks ago, it did an upgrade instantly after install and never booted again, win

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