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Interviews: Ask Dr. Temple Grandin About Animals and Autism
Being listed in the "Time 100" of the most influential people in the world in the "Heroes" category, is just one of the many awards received by Temple Grandin. Diagnosed with autism at the age of two, Temple overcame many obstacles and earned a doctoral degree in animal science from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and is a professor at Colorado State University. Dr, Grandin is recognized as an expert in animal behavior and one of the leading advocates for the rights of autistic persons. She lectures, and has written numerous books on animals and autism, and was the subject of the award-winning, biographical film, Temple Grandin . Dr. Grandin has agreed to take some time out of her schedule to answer any questions you may have. As usual, ask as many as you'd like, but please, one per post.
Do you feel any connection to the challenges of the mentally ill (schizophrenia, manic depressive, bipolar disorder) and autistic persons?
What advice do you have for parents of a high functioning toddler with hearing loss and autism?
Some people with autism experience sensory overload and anxiety. Do animals share that, or what is simliar/different between animals and people who have autism?
Do you follow any theories on the genesis of autisism, and if so, do you prefer any in particular?
Bukowski said it. I believe it. That settles it.
Over the last year I have been collecting personal accounts and studying professional research on the subject of autism. I believe I have gone my whole life undiagnosed high functioning. But because the spectrum and symptoms are so broad, and I don't relate to every single story I read, I begin to doubt myself. Would you agree that doubt rooted in the lack of absolutes, despite an otherwise large amount of signs, is a sign itself?
Dr. Grandin: Over the course of your career you have seen (and promoted) many changes in the humane treatment of livestock. However, over that same time period you've witnessed the decline of small family farms in favor of large-scale industrial farming with it's focus on economic efficiency. Overall, do you believe farm animals are better or worse off now?
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Is there an actual increase in the frequency of autism, more awareness (diagnosis), changing definitions, or something else that explains the [presumed] increase in number of children with autism?
Humans are animals. Humans also have the concept of "social justice" (which is, in fact, neither social nor justice, but rather a perversion of both). Yet other animals do not have this concept.
The adherence to "social justice" by many of its proponents also follows many of the symptoms of autism, most importantly a complete willingness to overlook irrational and hypocritical behavior.
If autism is found in other animals, why do we not see these animals also suffering from "social justice"?
That must have been hard to phrase your angry off-topic rant in the form of a question.
I'd also question your claim that animals don't have social justice. If we ignore your incoherent definition (ie any moral judgement you disagree with) and look at actual social justice things like concepts of fairness and policing social norms it's clear animals do have social justice.
I stole this Sig
What are your thoughts on factory farming, specifically the treatment of the anmals, the high percentage of greenhouse gases and waste it produces, and its contribution to antibiotic resistance?
Do you find it offensive that for one to be diagnosed is to become marginalized while given institutional support, while many go undiagnosed and generally become outcasts but without becoming institutionally separated from the normal class of citizens?
In other words, at what point is it advantageous to say "I have a disorder" versus "I think in pictures", or - at what point does one go from "I have a disorder" to "You wouldn't understand what it's like to think in pictures"? I have known many self-proclaimed autists who adopt this attitude toward others.
What do you believe is the difference between a high functioning Autistic person and a low functioning Autistic person.
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Dr. Grandin,
I'm not a veterinarian, but my spouse is, so I'm in contact with veterinarians regularly. In the majority of cases, these vets entered school with the idea that they would be spending the rest of their lives helping animals and are bitterly disappointed with the reality of ear/tail docking, convenience euthanasia, and the lack of will when confronted with clients who should probably not have pets (neglect, abuse, etc.) - "there's always another vet who will work with these people if I lay down the law."
Do you feel that you and your fellow faculty members are preparing your students for the realities of general practice? Are the veterinarians I'm describing simply being naive?
Thanks very much for your time.
If those without specific questions had a simple way to express their admiration and great respect for Dr. Grandin's work, life and personal courage.
Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
Humans are animals. Humans also have the concept of "social justice" (which is, in fact, neither social nor justice, but rather a perversion of both). Yet other animals do not have this concept.
How do you know?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Your work improving slaughterhouses essentially involved empathizing with the animals and understanding the factors that were causing them excessive stress.
Why do you think most people have so much trouble doing this? Is it just experience, ie we don't realize a certain rake is making the cattle nervous because we haven't lived the life of a cow. Or do you think there's something fundamentally different about the cognition of different animals that makes them respond in ways that humans have trouble relating to?
I stole this Sig
First of all, thanks for all your work for people on the spectrum.
I'm the parent of a child on the autism spectrum (High Functioning/Asperger's). When we got our son's diagnosis and I was reading up on Autism, I began to realize that these books were describing me also. Suddenly, all the things in my life that seems to set me apart from everyone else made sense. Now, I identify myself as undiagnosed Asperger's. I've considered getting a diagnosis but held back for various reasons (financial constraints, thinking my diagnosis wouldn't help my son, thinking that my diagnosis wouldn't help me). Sometimes, though, it feel like not getting the diagnosis sets me apart and casts doubt on whether I really have autism or not.
Would you recommend that adults who think they are on the spectrum get a diagnosis? If so, do you have any recommendations for how to proceed with this?
My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
Most animals don't live in a society, so the concept doesn't apply. Animals that do live in a society do have social justice ("justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society"). Some animal societies (eg. bee colonies) do a lot of resource sharing. It's not hard to see why this would be a useful group behavior to evolve.
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Do you think that autism has actually increased over the past years or has the definition expanded to encompass other conditions/misdiagnosis?
By observation?
a complete willingness to overlook irrational and hypocritical behavior.
I think that applies to almost every human as it's a very common cognitive bias. You don't have to talk with someone for very long before you can find some part of their behavior or belief system that is contradictory. Most people will try to rationalize it away when it is pointed out to them, and very few will actually adjust their behavior/beliefs, especially if it's something that they feel strongly about or as a major aspect of themselves.
I feel like you're probably just trolling, but I can tell you that my chickens definitely have a concept of social justice. One is the alpha female, and if one of the non-alphas starts picking on another chicken, the alpha will basically step in and do what needs to be done to restore order. Usually this just entails her standing up really tall and flapping her wings a few times right in front of the bully as a warning. And chickens aren't even very smart.
Apes and chimps also have established social orders and conventions within their groups that include concepts of justice and fairness. There has been a lot of anthropological research on this.
Actually, along these lines, Dr. Grandin, what are the most 'notable' behaviors (in your opinion) that you see displayed in animals:
I think I'm asking this about mammals (due to the advanced development of their brains), but if that assumption overly constrains the question, answer as broadly as you feel appropriate. References to published papers would also be great.
There a phenomenon on the internet - particularly among the nerd/geek technical community - to self-diagnose as "autistic" or having Asperger syndrome. (That is, they read something on the internet about autism, say "hey, that sounds vaguely similar to me", and then claim to have autism/Aspergers without even going to a doctor for an official diagnosis.)
What's your take on this? By claiming a condition which they might not technically have, are they de-stigmatizing it, or is it more that by "jumping on the bandwagon" they are trivializing a potentially serious condition? Are you concerned about "autism poseurs"?
We haven't really had to many of the Reddit asshole/Gamergate types on Slashdot lately and I'd say it reflects well on this site that most of the replies to this AC don't even really seem to know about anti-social justice campaign he supports.
I don't even want to call this person a troll, because things like "BSD is dying" were actually clever and funny, and this AC is just a petty bully who kicks down.
Dr. Temple Grandin is being featured on "Ask Slashdot" because she's a very interesting and accomplished person. She is autistic, she's a scientist, and movies have been made about her.
But this AC is just WHINING because they'd dare interview her. It's so horrible to ask a woman a question. And he WHINES about social justice, like it's the horrible thing in the world. Never mind that one doesn't have to be especially interested in social justice to find Dr. Grandin interesting.
It's sad. Just sad.
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Dr. Grandin: As someone diagnosed with high-functioning autism 17 years ago, I found your talk, "My Experience With Autism", to be absolutely fascinating in that it struck me someone describing in intricate detail how my mind work without ever having met me. I was particularly struck by your description of visual thinking, as it is something that I have always done. I use visual thinking when writing the graphics routines for video games, and the ability to map a mental image onto code almost instantly is tremendously helpful.
However, having spent the past ten years in the software development industry, I find that there is a surprising lack of understanding about autism, despite its unusual prevalence in the field of programming. To wit, across five jobs and three levels of increasing pay grade and responsibility, my annual performance evaluations are nearly identical: My "hard skills", that is, my ability to code, are always fine. My "soft skills", that is, my social skills and ability to communicate with others, mentor others, and lead others, always need improvement relative to the position I hold.
When I was an entry-level programmer and a mid-level programmer I simply assumed that I can work hard to improve my social skills, but a decade into my career I'm finding my attitude shifting towards bitterness. As someone who has worked hard at learning to enjoy social events and learned things like recognizing body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, and generally the ability to have a conversation, I'm quick to criticize fellow people on the autism spectrum who use the "I have autism, I can't help it" excuse - but I'm slowly realizing that due to being on the autism spectrum, there is a very real chance that I may never be fully on par, in terms of my social skills, with others who are my age with my experience level but who aren't on the autism spectrum.
I feel that there's been an unfortunate increase in emphasis on social skills among programmers over the past 10-20 years, and I feel that the average software development company is becoming more and more discriminatory towards those of us on the autism spectrum. Twenty years ago people were more than happy to simply hand-wave-away a programmer's lack of social skills as him or her being "eccentric" or "quirky". From my perspective, I feel that if I can code at or above my pay level, and I most certainly do, then there needs to be some level of understanding and accommodation as to my disorder by my employer.
To put it bluntly: What, in your opinion and experience, is the most efficacious route for cluing an employer in to my disorder, and achieving some level of understanding?
How has technology been employed to automatically detect and either alert or mitigate potential distraction situations? For example, using sensors to alert when external sound and motion levels become an issue or when livestock shows above normal signs of stress. Another example might be the tailored use of CAD to design facilities that take into account "other common distractions [such as] reflections on shining metal or wet floors. In indoor facilities, a ceiling light to eliminate a reflection will improve animal movement."
Wahhh!!!! "Inequality is a weapon!" Being disadvantaged is not a weapon. You like to imagine that you are being held back, but has it occured to you that you are a loser just because you are a loser? The democraticizing effects of the Internet allow you to have a much greater voice than you would otherwise. If you went around saying what you really think IRL, you'd get your ass kicked.
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Whether you agree with parent post or not, it would be interesting to see what response it engenders.
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
Dr. Grandin, Does the human ability to manipulate and expand upon elaborate linguistic constructs, constructs which influence behavior beyond the individual contributors, equal a distinct form of intelligence in contrast to that possessed by other animals in your opinion? If you feel this is a distinct form of intelligence, one that is central to our common identification as "above" other animals, do you feel that distinction is a mantle that can be applied beyond human neurology and instead might equivalently or more substantially applied to systems of "artificial intelligence"?
What actions or concessions should businesses take, on a social and practical scale, to help integrate and utilize those with autism, especially those with a particular gifting and working environment needs?
It's off topic. It'd be interesting if the AC decided to get a life and try to take on the real world.
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What is your feeling on religious/spiritual obeservances, both personally and in general? Do you have any personal such observances (if you are okay talking about it), and if so, what form do they take?
Bukowski said it. I believe it. That settles it.
The problem is people see voluntary cooperation in a free society working wonders, so they suppose if you just use laws to force people to cooperate similarly, you will produce similar results.
Last century was a test of hundreds of such experiments involving over ten billion people that showed conclusively that that supposition is disastrously wrong.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Over the years fields have gotten more and more in-depth/specialized to the point where a hundred or two hundred years back it wasn't unthinkable for a person to know several fields in completion. These days fields are very specialized - even to the point where a subject matter expert may not be able to know the full corpus of their field. At the same time the rates of autism and asperger's syndrome shoot up when you breed to people of high intellect.
Following this line of thinking my questions are:
I ask these as a person with Asperger's Syndrome that was diagnosed with it as a teenager who had a father that taught me a lot of engineering/math/science/tech/programming/psychology/philosophy from an early age (2) and have since developed that obsessive type of study of each of those areas (plus herpetology) so I'm curious if it is just my own take on things from introspective observations of myself or if this would seem to sync up with what others have observed (I'm making the assumption here that you have a fair deal more experience with autistic/asperger's syndrome people than I do.)
My 7 year old son was recently diagnosed with Autism, during testing we had performed because of significant behavioral problems he was having at school. While we've enrolled him in ABA therapy, and are working closely with the school district to improve his behavior, there's not a lot of real instruction going on for him there.
Is there a recommended curriculum you'd recommend we could use to supplement at home?
Watch for Penguins, they eat Apples and throw rocks at Windows.
As you've gained success professionally, how have your coping skills had to change? Is it harder or easier now to deal with the stresses of a very public life vs. when you were a relatively anonymous student? Do we have a model yet for the progression of adaptive skills development for people with autism, or is it highly variable at the individual level?
It seems like finding people with autism to act as advocates and leaders would be difficult; to the point you're probably the only well known person in that role. Do you have a community of peers with autism who help you advocate, or is much of your support from neurotypical people? Is this even a problem the autistic community faces?
What makes you think the queen bee is "ruling"? She's just there to make babies.
I've watched a video you made defending the cattle ranching industry and the process by which cows are slaughtered. How much is the meat industry paying you, and how can I be sure you're telling the truth?
Do you think cows would choose to be slaughtered if given a preference test? Why do you think it is right for humans to eat animals?
Any thoughts on people just being called it as an insult? I find it upsetting that people have come to this point in its use.
For those who seek perfection there can be no rest on this side of the grave.
Doubtful, if you observe social animals such as apes and wolves, it's quite clear they have a sense of social justice. Of course there are no non-human SJW's, because clearly it is a uniquely human behavior that has very little to do with natural justice.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
What do you think of the problem/phenomenon of the 'shiny autistic' (http://www.autistichoya.com/2013/05/what-is-shiny-aspie.html) trope, and the impact public that these people have on public perceptions of autism. As someone who is perceived by many as a 'shiny autistic' I'm curious to know why you think it is ok for 'shiny autistics' to speak on behalf of autistics.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369118X.2013.808365
What age could an Asperger person understand his diagnosis and refer to himself as a person with this disorder? Or what do they need to reach this level of self awareness?
Here's an observation: give cows and chickens a choice of whether to go to the slaughterhouse or not. Let them see where they're going and hear the cries of the animals slaughtered before them. If they choose to continue to slaughter, then you can eat them. If any of them bolt and try to get away, you can't eat them.
Don't be silly, a queen bee can't rule over anything, it simply doesn't have the brainpower. It can't move or even feed itself, it's entirely dependent on the hard wired instincts of its offspring. Bees are part of a larger 'organism' called a hive, the hive has far more intelligence than any individual bee. In many ways an individual bee is comparable to mindless automata. Individual bees, including the queen follow the simple rules they were born with - their instincts. As for the intelligence of a 'hive mind', it's been shown that the common ants nest evolved a solution to the travelling salesman problem that is more efficient than the best logistics algorithms of humans, but there's a catch, neither the ants or the nest as a whole have sufficient consciousness to contemplate that amazing achievement.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
With the amount of amazing work that you have done in how slaughter houses and trying to ensure that animals are treated with respect when it comes to the raising and when it's time to slaughter them. How do you feel about regulations and laws being passed that prevent individuals from filming any abuse they come across?
All social animals are driven by emotion, including humans. The alpha chicken is following its chicken emotions in exactly the same way as an alpha human follows her human feelings. Sure, humans have a greater capacity to understand, communicate, and control their emotions than chickens, but chickens rarely declare war between flocks.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
First, I just want to tell you how much I admire your work to demystify autism. I've been a huge fan since I saw "The woman that thinks like a cow" documentary many years ago. Since then I have gained three very lovable granddaughters, the oldest is six and mildly autistic. Your documentaries and talks were invaluable in helping me to understand autism before I experienced it up close and personal. You are one of the "great teachers" in my life and for that you have my eternal gratitude.
:)
Question : Do you know a way to prevent 'dust bunnies' landing in clean bath water? - I can't even see them without glasses but they scare the bejesus out of my granddaughter.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Why should humans subject their prey to this idiocy when wolves and lions etc. do not?
You want animals to have equal rights as humans? Then they would need to pay taxes and be subject to our laws about not shitting in public and killing each other. Get a grip on reality, seriously.
You were critically hit for no damage. The bruise will look nice, and maybe the scars will make good party talk.
I've seen many claims that being a human with autism somehow gives you some special access to animal experiences. Since no one knows what animals actually experience, and pretty much everything we know about both animal evolution and autism tells us that a human with autism is if anything less likely than a neurotypical human to have sound insight into the lived experience of a domesticated harem-keeping herbivorous prey-animal with completely different evolved responses to external stimuli--since neurotypical humans are generally better than humans with autism at building models of other minds--does it bother you as a scientist to see these completely unfounded, unjustified and likely false claims made, despite the huge benefits they have had to marketing your personal brand, and the likely good your prominence in the field has done regarding the humane treatment of animals?
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
Dr. Grandin, thank you for taking time to answer questions. I have been familiar with your work in the autism field for many years. I first found your book, "Thinking in Pictures" when my son was a toddler and my husband and I were attempting to figure out if we could avoid an institution as a long term choice for him. Your book describing your thought process provided myself with a key and I was able to help him start communicating with us by drawing, by hand and then on the computer. He is in his 20's now, and he continues to grow and become more independent.
Based on observations of my son and myself, I have noticed that difficulties we have had in processing behavioral information has changed and in some cases, improved as we've gotten older. This has made it somewhat easier to interface with regular people, although it is also frustrating in my case because I have a higher awareness of how much social communication I still miss. I am in my early 50's and I still notice changes in how I process data and figure out how to interact with others. Have you noticed such changes within yourself or heard of these changes within others?
I used to be an adult but then I grew up.
Dr. Grandin, thank you for taking the time to review these topics with us. My question is regarding Applied Behavior Analysis therapy for children diagnosed with autism: what is your opinion of the benefits of these techniques?
Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
"Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
Dr. Grandin, thank you for taking the time to review these topics with us.
My question is regarding the notion that some behavior therapists have with respect to never taking a child out of their comfort zone; that is, some therapists seem to explicitly avoid emotional discomfort, "work" etc. I would ask you whether or not your experiences would support this type of therapy, or whether you see some benefit for children undergoing therapies to be pushed and challenged outside of their comfort zone?
Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
"Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
Dr. Grandin, thank you for taking the time to review these topics with us.
My question is in regards to what you might think the underlying cause of the sensory differences which manifest in young children which fall under the umbrella term autism could possibly be.
I have two boys who have been diagnosed on the spectrum, and each is very different. One is now 13 and falls under a more classic "Aspergers"/PDD/NOS classification. He seems to respond to light medications for managing his anxiety; he plays the violin and is branching into screenwriting and the computer animation necessary to realize his dreams. He is mainstreamed in school, with only one "special" elective. His younger brother is twelve, and is markedly different. Although he is rather close to nonverbal, he has a much easier time socially than his brother, because he doesn't manifest the social anxiety of his brother. He is physically active, sometimes to the extreme, climbing trees as high as they go, running track in middle school, and being generally boyishly adventurous. Yet he is barely literate, and undergoes physical discomfort when asked to read, even for a short time. He is in the "ILC" center for most of the school day.
Having watched these two very different brothers very close in age grow over the past 13 years has given me a great curiousity as to how their differences are expressed. With your attention here, I wondered if you might have any biological theories as to what the differences are in the various manifestations of Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
"Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
I recently attended a talk about the use of drones to monitor livestock. Although the concept seems great for observing livestock that are in hard to access areas, do you think that this could eventually be as useful as going out to monitor the animals in person? Because livestock are all prey species, they tend to hide signs of illness or distress pretty well, and I'm not sure that subtle signs would be able to be detected with the use of drones alone.