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Google Staffers Share Salary Info With Each Other; Management Freaks
Nerval's Lobster writes: Imagine a couple of employees at your company create a spreadsheet that lists their salaries. They place the spreadsheet on an internal network, where other employees soon add their own financial information. Within a day, the project has caught on like wildfire, with people not only listing their salaries but also their bonuses and other compensation-related info. While that might sound a little far-fetched, that's exactly the scenario that recently played out at Google, according to an employee, Erica Baker, who detailed the whole incident on Twitter. While management frowned upon employees sharing salary data, she wrote, "the world didn't end everything didn't go up in flames because salaries got shared." For years, employees and employers have debated the merits (and drawbacks) of revealing salaries. While most workplaces keep employee pay a tightly guarded secret, others have begun fiddling with varying degrees of transparency, taking inspiration from studies that have shown a higher degree of salary-related openness translates into happier workers. (Other studies (PDF) haven't suggested the same effect.) Baker claims the spreadsheet compelled more Google employees to ask and receive "equitable pay based on data in the sheet."
Employers afraid of employees asking for raises, film at eleven.
I firmly believe that when job-hunting, you should know how much you'll be making when you apply. I've been through a number of interviews for what seemed to be great positions, only to have to turn them down after being offered the job because they weren't paying a decent wage for the job at hand.
Making public how much everyone is making goes a long way to keeping job-seekers aware of how much they are worth. Hiding salaries only helps companies, who can then keep low-balling people.
Back when I was in the Army, we all knew exactly how much everyone else made in base pay, from E1 to O9. That at least gave incentive to work up the chain from the bottom.
It has been so taboo at many of the places that I have worked to talk about salary.
The place I work now is very guarded about this as well. We recently had someone canned because they opened someone else's offer letter (which was sitting on a shared workstation).
I have always just assumed it was conspiracy cooked up in a board room full of men long ago as a way to enable pay inequality.
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
Baker claims the spreadsheet compelled more Google employees to ask and receive "equitable pay based on data in the sheet."
90% of drivers think they are better than the average driver, and I would bet 90%+ of workers think they are better than average, and would therefore expected to be paid above the median (note for the statistically challenged - 90% of a group cannot be above the median). This study will give them data to know where they are on the graph. How will management deal with 90% of their workers demanding to be paid more since they are being paid below what they think they should be based on their (biased) self-assessment?
The (American only?) taboo on discussing compensation simply perpetuates inequality. If it seems unfair it probably is.
The big difficulty is that salary gets really complicated, really fast. It helps many people, but building the system that is equitable would be difficult, and all the positive outliers could be harmed in the process.
SCENARIO: Money is a little tight but applicants are plentiful. We interview lots of people, and three of them look very qualified and are willing to work for a certain wage in a tight range. All hired. Three months later the group discovers a unique need, needing a developer on a specific tool with specific skills. They'll be hired at the same job title, but because the group need a specialized skill immediately, they will go through a headhunter and ultimately pay a premium for that fourth worker. Now, because all four have the same job title, the critical question: should the company go back and increase the three other workers' pay to the same pay rate of the fourth worker with the specialized skill? Should they refuse to hire the specialist at a rate above the other three?
In some fields it can make sense to standardize pay. Most skilled trades operate this way. There is a standard rate in a region for a Journeyman with specific certifications. Trade unions can help fight for specific benefits. You know that this class of tradesman has a specific skill set and can be hired for $27/hour. You need four of them. All of them are treated as interchangeable.
In other fields it can make far less sense to standardize pay, mostly because there are many variables. Unfortunately software development is one of those fields where it is complicated. It would be really convenient -- both for applicants and employers -- to have such a scale. This is a Java programmer with seven endorsements certified at grade 27, so pay is automatically $x.
But unfortunately for this field, technology is ALWAYS changing, so the scale would be difficult. You were certified in version 3.2, but the system has moved on to version 4.1. Does that individual lose the old certification? If they take the new industry trade group's course do they now have 8 certifications instead of seven? Do certifications expire over time, or transfer between technologies? With the huge number of technologies out there, does that mean we'll have thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of different certifications for the trade union? How are individual certifications weighted, and how are they equivalent? Is a master Direct3D 12 certification the same value as a master PostgreSQL 9.4 certification? Is a PostgreSQL 9.4.4 certification valued differently than a PostgreSQL 9.3.9 certification? If someone has certifications in other specializations, must those apply in the cost? With the rapid pace of an enormous number of technologies, what prevents someone from getting hundreds of certifications? Such as "I've got 47 certifications, one for each version of the software released over the past two years"? While it works good for slower-moving trades, it does not work so well in software.
Sometimes I feel it would be nice to have programming trade unions. There are many features like collective bargaining for benefits that could be nice. But for actual salary levels, union-based standardized wages would be a nightmare. It would add a convenience factor to ensure new workers have certain minimum competencies, but it unfortunately adds maximum values as well. Nobody wants to know that they could be making more due to market pressure.
By establishing fixed buckets of pay levels, it establishes both a minimum (yay) and a maximum (boo) within a region. If you've got any kind of specialization or exotic skill -- and many of us do -- those same pay buckets that help many people also hurt the top performers.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
For those that have worked in the public sector this is often the norm -- at least it was where I worked. Back in the dark ages (pre Internet) the State Audit department published a book with every employee's actual earnings and travel expenses annually. That document was a public record and available to anyone who knew about it and took the trouble to get a copy. When the Internet came along the data is now on line and searchable on a public web site. When vendors came to sell us the latest and greatest security gismo or software their standard example of confidential information was the employee salary data. Once it was on line I always got a kick out of going to the Web site and calling up the application and showing them that salary data was NOT at all confidential where we worked!
While interviewing for jobs last year, I ran into a former coworker who was still working at the same company and making slightly more money than I did when we worked together nine years ago. He stayed in the same position and accepted 2% pay raises over those nine years. I did short-term contract work — anywhere from a day to a year — for various Fortune 500 companies in Silicon Valley, making 80% more money because I have much broader range of experiences in assignment and corporate cultures. Go figure.
At every company there's someone that works harder than you and makes far less money than you. Conversely, there's also someone that works far less than you and makes way more money than you.
If the company didn't think they were worth it, wouldn't be getting paid it.
Management didn't "freak". The spreadsheet in question is alive and well, and Google employees continue adding their information to it (I did). If management really wanted gone, it would be taken down. Erica Baker's manager wasn't happy about it, and she was invited to talk to her manager about it. It may or may not have bothered someone above her manager; Erica doesn't know and neither do we.
Her manager also chose to interpret the peer bonus rules such that the bonuses peers sent her forward weren't given to her. That's at least partly correct on her manager's part. The peer bonus rules say that any given action/effort can only be rewarded once. If the manager feels that it was a really valuable contribution the manager can choose to discard the peer bonus ($125) and instead award a larger spot bonus (amount variable), but only one peer bonus per act.
What is a little bit weird was that Erica said peer bonuses were rejected before one was approved, so the rejections before the approval weren't due to the one PB per action rule. Also weird is that Erica said her colleague got multiple bonuses for the spreadsheet. That shouldn't normally happen.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
You do realize that 'perfect information' is one of the defining characteristics of the idealized model of 'free market' behavior? You don't have to like it; but calling anything vaguely related to money that displeases you 'socialistic' is dumb beyond words.
In the US, at least, they can't prevent it. If people want to talk about that, let them do it.
Yup. Same law that says you can unionize says they can't stop you from sharing pay and benefits information. But like unionizing, this is a powerful tool for workers and they will do anything they can to keep you from asking.
"Secret salaries" is a classic prisoners dilemma, but with a twist. Here the prisoners are allowed to communicate to achieve the statistically best mutual outcome, but the statistically best mutual outcome also comes with the slight penalty that the one with the best outcome currently (highest paid for position) not only receives no direct benefit, but also receives a slight penalty in that if others use the information to say, get a raise, their highest paid position will be lessened or eliminated.
Now statistically, in a company with thousands of employees, many with roughly the same "position" the logical thing to do would be to share, as odds are extremely good you aren't in that highest paid position and thus can only receive benefit. But the idea that you *MIGHT* be has probably kept employees from doing this before now.
Well, I'm safe. I don't own a rifle, high powered or otherwise.
My company does management training yearly, and every time they remind us that per NLRB rules, we can't tell employees not to discuss salary info amongst themselves. And unless you're being a shitty employer to begin with and treating people unfairly, you shouldn't really care if people discuss it. As long as you can rationally explain to a judge why different people are paid differently, who cares?
Base salary and bonuses are not the only forms of compensation to think about. Depending on your position you may have paid conferences and training that you are sent to. You may have a paid cell phone, internet services, bring your own device voucher, new technologies voucher, company vehicles, holiday and paid time off, stock options, retirement, health and wellness benefits, coveted vendor "gifts", etc. I could share my base salary and it would be an interesting to others. But it wouldn't show all the various other ways that my company might do to keep me happy. Sometimes compensation is hard to monetize as well. For one person time off or flexible working may be more valuable than increased pay.
There is or can be built a machine that can simulate any physical object. -Church-Turing principle
If you click through to the "article," you'll get a long list of ten-word sentences formatted as tweets. When did this become an even remotely acceptable way of presenting something?
Good lord. If you work for Google, can't you figure out how to create a blog? My mother did it.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
these clauses are unenforceable, but apparently you don't know that.
i bet they figured out you were a sucker and screwed you over in about 20 different ways, and you don't even know it.
Yup. Same law that says you can unionize says they can't stop you from sharing pay and benefits information.
The law says they cannot; However, most employers feel the law is unfair to the employer and may very well intentionally disobey the law in a subtle manner.
If they find you shared your salary, then your company might find another reason to fire you and terminate you for that other reason. In an at-will state it's easier..... "According to the latest performance review, you're just not a good fit for our company, so we have to let you go."
Google could technically do the same for everyone on that spreadsheet. Sharing their own salary info would not be mentioned on the official papers as reason for termination, But their accessing/showing the spreadsheet could be grounds for termination upon suspicion of gaining unauthorized access to HR systems.
Companies need to make the money, and employment costs going up would be a huge negative for the shareholders and managers' bonuses.
most employers feel the law is unfair to the employer and may very well intentionally disobey the law in a subtle manner.
If they find you shared your salary, then your company might find another reason to fire you and terminate you for that other reason.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/07/23/3683910/autozone-pregnancy-case/
This week, the auto parts retailer AutoZone dropped its challenge to a verdict ordering it to pay a record-breaking $185 million in damages to a former employee
employment costs going up would be a huge negative for the shareholders and managers' bonuses.
And paying out a $185 million lawsuit is probably an even more huge negative
if you have two people doing the same and one is grossly underpaid, he or she will not sit back and take it as bosses dish it out. What is so surprising about this?
The problem comes when one just thinks they are doing "the same" job.
stroking your beard whilst openly counting the minutes until your three-hour shift ends doesn't count as work
Yes it does. It's in the Collective Bargaining Agreement document, section 4, subsection 4.2.6b, under "General notes and allowances".
Be warned that a grievance will be submitted about this by the union representative when she comes back to work after her 54 months maternity leave.
lucm, indeed.
They still have 24 packs, but the 20 packs cost what the 24 packs used to cost. And yes, there are 20 packs out there.
Wal-Mart
Amazon
Office Depot seems to only sell the 24 packs. For $12.99. 3 years ago I was stocking soda for our soda machine and the 24 pack cases were $6.99, sometimes $4.99 on sale. Wal-mart sells the 20 pack cases for $6.48, which at first makes you think the price of a case of soda has gone down, until you see that it went down in price by 8% and down in quantity by 20%.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
If your employer/manager implies otherwise, or discriminates against you in any way for discussing compensation, they are in legal hot water.
In practice, sharing your salary in personally identifiable way is probably not beneficial for your career. Coworkers who earn less are likely to be resentful, and those who earn more may feel you must be somehow inferior. Sites like glassdoor are probably the best balance of transparency and privacy.
Capitalism has several logical impossibilities embedded in it that don't make sense to anyone but an economist, aside from "perfect information" we also have invalid assumptions like "rational actors" and "infinite growth".
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Many prices are open in public. If I want to know the prices my competitor offers, I just look up his price sheet. But for employees, appearently having a public price list is frowned upon, which gives employers an unfair advantage in the negotiation. Differently than the employee, the employer has perfect information, he knows how much he pays every employee. And thus the power in salary negotiation is very loopsided, as the employee has much less information about the market and the competition than the employer has. Thus salary negotiations in most cases don't happen in a free market environment.
"Perfect information" is the idealized model. As with any idealized model, economics or otherwise(trajectories with respect to a single point mass in absence of friction, ideal gasses, etc.) it sacrifices real-world attainability for substantial convenience in in building and analyzing the model.
Once you have the idealized model, you have something with which to compare real world outcomes and a basis for studying how and why they deviate from the idealized version. Is it barriers to entry? Asymmetric information? Bounded rationality on the part of some or all actors? That's where the economists who grovel through data come in.
In this case, the point isn't that perfect information is expected of real-world economic happenings; perfect information is not possible in practice. However, 'sharing salary data' is an absolutely textbook example of something that would move the situation from 'very imperfect data' to 'closer to perfect data'. It also likely reduces the asymmetry of information(HQ already knew all the salaries, and possibly some at competing companies as well; these employees now have better information and information that is closer to parity with the actor they are negotiating with).
The purpose of idealized models is not to a deliberately unanswerable demand "If it isn't a 'Free Market' the market isn't free!"; but to act as a simplified analytical tool that allows you to focus more clearly on the aspects of the real market that are most or least like their ideal counterparts and tease out how the non-ideal behavior changes the outcomes.
Ahh but you forget that Google is filled with white males. No amount of lawyers can successfully sue claiming discrimination against this group. Ask me how I know... Here's a hint. An employer can fire a white male for any made up reason with no evidence even against their own policies and with a good performance review. A law group might send a letter but if the company ignores the letter, they won't take it to trial.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
Then your place of work is in violation of federal law. If it is a written policy, get a copy and keep it at home. Discuss salaries, when fired, sue for wrongfule termination with that company policy as evidence and retire.