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World of Warcraft's Next Expansion: Legion

Today at Gamescom in Germany, Blizzard unveiled the next expansion for World of Warcraft, called Legion. The expansion will raise the level cap to 110 and bring adventurers to a new continent: the Broken Isles. This will include several new zones and be the source of a new demonic invasion. The story will delve deeply into the game world's history and let players use customizable 'artifact' weapons. To fight the invasion, Blizzard is introducing a new class, Demon Hunter, who will start out at a high level and can perform tank- and damage-centric roles.

The PVP system will be getting revamped, and they're introducing Class-specific halls and followers. The expansion will contain the requisite new raids and world bosses, of course. Small dungeons will be getting increased focus in Legion. As with the previous expansion, players will be given a free level boost for one character to the current level cap in order to get started on the new content right away. Blizzard has posted an cinematic teaser, and the full announcement trailer on YouTube. A beta test will start sometime later this year, but no release date has been announced. MMO-Champion has a post full of details known about the expansion.

129 comments

  1. Good luck by buk110 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Numbers are in swift decline from expansion to expansion with the typical "bounce" that temporarily occurs upon release. While I am only one person, I know many that have quit as of late and these are players from vanilla. This expansion will have to blow the doors off and be far better than Pandaria or it's bad times

    1. Re:Good luck by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

      The problem is that they don't tell you the bad things they're going to do before you've already sunk the money. Even *IF* the expansion looked interesting (and it doesn't), you're best to wait until the 2nd patch and decide to buy/not buy based on what is in the game at x.2. Assume nothing new after that, and decide if all the nerfs and stuff taken away is worth it.

      WoD was a huge, horrifying disappointment for many reasons, the worst attempt since Catacylsm. Blizzard needs to do a lot to earn trust back, btu Idon't think they will. They're mostly in the death spiral of milking cash out of the franchise before it dies.

    2. Re:Good luck by buk110 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think one of the biggest problems has been the PvE vs. PvP issue. You have two groups of people, those that like to PvP and those that like to do raids. I know some overlap, but more often than not they didn't. Patches would be made to "balance" for one set and end up "nerfing" the other. The other issue is server migration. While yes, you can cross-realm raid find to raid with any random group of people; it's hard to make solid progression if you're not in a raid group. While this is well & good, some servers are a total ghost town and you must pay the troll toll to server hop. Ultimately, there are too many things they need to fix and I don't have to wait anymore. I played since Vanilla and I think I've finally had enough. There are way too many alternatives out there and the time crunch to raid in anything more than a semi-casual group is too cumbersome

    3. Re:Good luck by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      as a serious question, what alternatives?

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    4. Re:Good luck by s.petry · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have hated the Flintstones look of WOW graphics since just about day one. It still looks like the Flintstones today after years of expansions, patches, and "new" stuff.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    5. Re:Good luck by nhat11 · · Score: 2

      Final Fantasy 14 is a really good alternative. You're definitely getting your $15 bucks a month with monthly small updates and large content update every 3 months to the dot. They pump out content quick and the quality is there.

    6. Re:Good luck by buk110 · · Score: 2

      I think that depends on the individual person. For me, it was less time gaming in general and picking up different hobbies. Whether that be something like gardening, tinkering, sporting events, or a different game, that's entirely up to you. Leisure time is limited and should be used to the best of it's ability. As far as games go? I check out Steam for sales - Banished is my vice at the moment.

    7. Re:Good luck by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This has been an issue since day 1 of vanilla, but has devolved into a playstyle that as a PvE person I really don't like, and reading posts, I don't think the PvPers really like either. I really don't think hardcore PvE and hardcore PvP can coexist because the fundamental gameplay mechanics that make PvE interesting do not exist in PvP, and vice versa. PvE is algorithmic, strategic and if done right, very complex. PvP on the other hand is highly dynamic and tactical. It's pretty much the difference between watching stunt men mock-fight in a movie versus watching UFC. Both require a lot of skill and a lot of training and superficially look similar, but when the rubber meets the road don't translate well.

      There's all sorts of things they CAN do to make the game interesting again, but in my opinion a PvE only game and a PvP only game would end up being far better than their best effort. Unfortunately you're either WoW or you're cloning WoW, nobody has the cajones to do something new. I guess until WoW dies the true death.

    8. Re:Good luck by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Well, for some of us, simply cutting out on-line gaming is an alternative.

      I don't want my gaming experience to be on someone else's timetable, or get mugged by someone who thinks that's fun.

      My first few on-line gaming experiences basically told me I didn't like it at all. For some of us, on-line gaming is a negative, not a feature.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    9. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as a serious question, what alternatives?

      As a serious answer, anything you find fun.

      If what you find most fun is playing a action/rpg hybrid with a set of friends, and enough of those friends like WoW more than any other game, then you don't really have an option. If you want an online game with a significant storyline, LotRO and SWToR have those met. If you want a heavy action game with excessive character optimization potential, DDO has been the only option for a while now. If you find other people annoying and just want to shoot things, Fallout 4 is coming out soon.

      If you like being under the oppressive glare of that big bright thing above the ceiling, you could try hiking, swimming, jogging, or some variant of those using some form of simple person-powered vehicle.

    10. Re:Good luck by dywolf · · Score: 1

      the death knell has been sounding since midway through TBC.
      I'll believe it's dead after an axe has been taken to the servers.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    11. Re:Good luck by mlts · · Score: 1

      PvE: Rift is not too bad. It doesn't have flight which causes people not to pick up the game, but it has a lot of features and ways to advance (PvE, PvP, groups, IAs, raids, solo quests, crafting quests, etc.) What I like about Rift is the customization aspect. You can't just read a site like Icy Veins, copy down the class, spec, and keys to use in a rotation, and expect to go far. Yes, there are predefined Rift templates available, but being able to switch between specs to handle various bosses is the difference between loot and wipes. You can buy some lower tier gear on the market, but for real stuff, it still is earned.

      EQ and EQ2 are also good. Neither has stuff on the marketplace (other than XP potions) that allow someone to "P2W".

      When I get bored with Rift, I may try DDO or Neverwinter. DDO is more "pay currency for each thing", and Neverwinter is more "pay currency for a cool mount or a pet". Both games are chugging along, so they must be doing something right. Same with LOTRO.

      Hell, DAoC is still limping along, and just had some life breathed into it.

      If you want PvP, UO-style, no rules, no holds barred, full loot, Darkfall comes to mind.

    12. Re:Good luck by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      yeah I was asking more about other game alternatives :)

      Tried LORTO and while I *love* the Tolkien universe it just didn't click for me. EQ2 just didn't seem as polished. Haven't tried SWToR or DDO....me thinks I should then :)

      I've never gotten into 1st person shooters and that seems to be the plethora these days.

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    13. Re:Good luck by Rinikusu · · Score: 1

      I constantly wonder why I continue to play... It's really not all that.. fun anymore.. It's more about being OCD about a few achievements that I feel I just have to complete...

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
    14. Re:Good luck by Travis+Mansbridge · · Score: 2

      The EQ1 servers are still up. WoW's will be up for at least a decade after it's relevant.

    15. Re:Good luck by srmalloy · · Score: 1

      ...or get mugged by someone who thinks that's fun.

      Which is my main objection to open-world PvP; there are always enough jerks whose sole measure of personal value and gaming skill seems to be how fast their level-capped combat monster can gank your single-digit-level newbie character, and who will melt into the shadows rather than face anything that even looks like it might be a fair fight, to make your experience an unending frustration cycle.

    16. Re:Good luck by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Star Wars: The Old Republic. Had some real growing pains at launch, but has grown into itself quite nicely.

      Have a referral link and give it a try.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    17. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some people like Guild Wars 2. Pay once and there's no subscription fee. I don't know if you'd like it or not.

    18. Re:Good luck by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      At least it will run like a bat out of hell on newer hardware :)

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    19. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Masochistic JMMO Skinner boxes are easy to develop content for because it's all the same.

    20. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unreal 1 servers are still up and in use, and that game's been out for fifteen years.

    21. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's based on the old D&D manuals and modules. It's supposed to appear like the hand drawn universe of the 80s. It's one of the things I loved about it. To each his own.

    22. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And waiting for the 2nd patch means that by the time you've caught up in level and gear, you've already lost 6-12 months of time before the next expansion after that comes out and wipes the slate clean again.

    23. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I am guessing that Blizzard is doing what Daybreak (formerly SOE) is doing -- putting an expansion out annually, as they know, people will pay for it, regardless.

      I wish Blizzard could continue with some of the concepts that made WoD interesting, or maybe borrow more from other MMOs.

      My biggest beef with WoW is that you pick a class, you follow what the latest theorycraft has to say for spec, glyphs, talents, and rotation, and you follow that. Any deviation, and you get booted from most guilds. In fact, if your real time numbers in recount go low, people will start demanding you pick up your share in vent, and then boot you from the raid... or just boot you from the raid before the boss goes down just for grins.

      Second biggest beef is that classes really don't matter. If there is a paladin nerf, expect to lose your guild tag, since the monk healer will take your place. Lock nerf? There is a hunter on that waiting list.

      Other MMOs actually have a concept of "support". In WoW, if I pop an off-heal since the tank is getting pummeled, that is grounds for getting thrown out of a raid. In virtually every other MMO, that is something that is common sense.

    24. Re:Good luck by jandrese · · Score: 1

      I'm frankly amazed that they have the check to charge for an expansion on a game that has a monthly subscription fee. It certainly does not take anywhere near $15/person to keep the servers running. Probably closer to a few pennies per person for server costs, a couple of bucks for overhead (secretaries, rent, CEO private jet, etc...), and the rest goes into someone's pocket. By all rights there should be buckets of "free" new content raining down in WoW constantly. They pull in the development budget for a full AAA game every month, and somehow can't manage to develop one new zone and one new player class with that? Where the hell is all of that money going?

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    25. Re:Good luck by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I tried an MMO game once .. not 100% sure of which one, I think there was supposed to be some space involved, but I never saw it ... since I'm not a wizard at FPS combat (which is a massive understatement) and I wanted to look around to see what the game was all about and what it had and explore the world and see stuff ... after 30 minutes of constantly getting killed, respawning in the same place, and getting killed again ... well, I disconnected and have never connected to an MMO in the first place.

      I had heard there might be an interesting world to explore, some potential to do some interesting role-playing, and see neat an interesting things. In reality, I don't think I ever got past the first 50 feet or so of the starting point before getting killed. Repeatedly, pointlessly, from all angles.

      That wasn't a fucking game. Not to me it wasn't.

      That pretty much cemented for me that I will never play any form of online game ever again. The rest of the idiots basically preclude any new players from finding any enjoyment in it.

      And since I wasn't interested in engaging in combat, but exploring the virtual world, there was literally no redeeming quality to the game for me.

      Honestly, now if I want to game, I'll play some Skyrim and ignore the plot and major quests for the most part. If there's a massive open roamer where you can explore and not really do anything with the combat system, it might be cool.

      But then I doubt anybody else would play it, because apparently killing off weaker characters is somehow entertaining to far too many people.

      If MMO means getting constantly killed by every asshole who does that for fun, I don't want to have anything to do with it.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    26. Re:Good luck by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      The only online multiplayer game I've found at all enjoyable is The Crew. I really don't know why I enjoy that game so much, except that driving around listening to music (I put a Spotify playist on in the background) reminds me of my late teens (except I didn't have a $1.5million Koenigsegg when I was in my teens).

      I like to play the multiplayer races and events and sometimes just like to drive through Yosemite or Manhattan, the Louisiana Bayou or Las Vegas. I've seen very few out-and-out dicks playing and since launch day only one or two cheaters. Lots of people who will play co-op events with you and now I'm one of the high-level players who will help out newbies with some of the more difficult events (like "Burn Coburn").

      All in all, I'm pretty impressed. It's not a racing sim, but if you enjoyed Burnout Paradise and the later period NFS games, The Crew is a good one.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    27. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I kinda hope for a new generation of MMORPG players. It's not like they're skipping from one game to the next and some really great games seem to be falling apart. DnD Online probably has as less subscribers than a backwoods Peruvian independent news paper written in Swahili. LotRO is starting to cut servers (but with new data centers and hardware). EQ1 hangs by a thread. EQ2 probably isn't any better off. I'm surprised Age of Conan still exists. I haven't seen anyone mention EVE in ages even as it was a darling of Slashdot for so long...
       
      Maybe it's a trend that's going to die and come back around in a decade or so but today it just seems everything is in a terrible lull.

    28. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Modded up solely for "level-capped combat monster". :)

    29. Re:Good luck by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      There's lots of MMOs where griefing is not really a thing, because it's not really possible. Cryptic's Neverwinter and their Trek game are both fairly fun to run around in the way that a single player game is, with occasional moments when you are forced to work together with other players. They're both free to pay, but you can be quite successful without money in either one. I don't know if all new Neverwinter players get a week of double experience points, but it's really got me over the hump nicely. (Right into the grind... levels get really long at 60.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    30. Re:Good luck by s.petry · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately this is not true

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    31. Re:Good luck by argStyopa · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Is this the "bad times" where they:
      - are one of the very few MMOs that sustain the subscription model, and
      - even if their numbers fall by 50%, they're still comparable if not greater populations than every other MMO out there?

      Seriously, if they fall to 2 million players (unlikely) that's STILL an income of $360 million/year.
      Yes, they won't be able to afford a staff of thousands and big fancy digs, but mainly what that means is they'll have less 'gravy' to carry other feeble projects.

      --
      -Styopa
    32. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that FFXIV is a complete WOW clone these days, right? If you don't like WOW or the direction it's going, you aren't going to look slower, anime WOW either. (The combat in FFXIV is absolutely GLACIAL compared to WOW.)

      The ironic thing is that FFXIV 1.0 was a much more interesting game than the shitty relaunch version. Buggier and less playable due to the bugs, but far more interesting.

    33. Re:Good luck by Dins · · Score: 1

      I understand your feelings, and if that happened to me I likely would have done the same. But there are MANY different MMOs out there, most of which don't allow the ganking of noobs. Most offer a strictly PVE (player vs. environment) option, where no "player killing" like that is even possible anywhere in the game. I know you've probably written off the whole genre based on what you said, but if not, try a different one but make sure it's on a PVE server.

      From personal experience I can recommend: Everquest 2, World of Warcraft (yes), Lord of the Rings Online or Elder Scrolls Online. Rift is a good free-to-play MMO that's similat to WoW. You'd have nothing invested financially.

    34. Re:Good luck by mlts · · Score: 1

      A lot of them have wound up as niche items, a sub base good enough to keep the lights on and updates coming, but not blockbuster hits.

      EVE still is pretty popular. It may not get the front page press as of now, but there are people throwing $1500 in Plex, selling that for ISK, and getting their alts skilled enough to pilot a Titan or two.

      As virtualization makes it easier to run servers on less hardware, it may only take a few machines to run an entire MMO farm these days. Even the old separation of the core server and zone server can be easily kept by having a vSwitch, or if it requires it, be on a blade/enclosure system with a fast backbone.

      As far as what I've seen, EQ1 still has a bigger playerbase than EQ2.

      I do agree things are stagnant. EQ:Next is sort of dead in the water, with a part of it being like Minecraft but with better graphics.

      The only real MMO that looks promising is Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen, but I am worried they are wanting to re-create EQ1, but not factor in that most subscribers have jobs and other things to tend to, and can't really sit LFG until asked to join a group in a dungeon, then grind for 4-8 hours. It does have some promise though, as something more challenging than just tapping a rotation endlessly [1].

      [1]: I'd love to see a MMO that has some skill involved, and not just tapping the exact rotation of stuff that the local theorycraft states. The closest to this is probably Rift, where for one boss, every character doing DPS might want to load a melee damage spec, then for the boss that spins around in a circle with his insta-death ray, people switch to doing all ranged DPS. For the boss that makes you run around all the time, you switch to a spec with a melee pet, so you have constant DPS on the boss no matter how you run. Of course, for the boss that pulses an insta-kill that you can't run away from, you switch to a spec that saves you from a death-blow. EQ1 and EQ2 used to be about preparing beforehand, finding potions, buffs, and other things, even if items only made a single percentage point of difference. Now, it is pretty much arcade action with no real thought or pre-planning.

    35. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Thing with WoW-like MMOs is that they pretty much require you to play sitting down in front of a desk (or laptop).

      The older generation has that.

      The younger generation is starting off with smart phones and tablets.

    36. Re:Good luck by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Interesting

      As someone who has played quite a bit of SWTOR, there's some good, some bad and some ugly.

      The good:
      Full voice acting (seriously, I'm not kidding, every insignificant idiot NPC got something to say. And I mean say).
      Mass-Effect-esque Dialogue system (makes you really feel like you can, ya know, have some kind of impact, even if you cannot)
      Every class is a pet class. Seriously, you run around with a "companion" no matter the class. I.e. no longer "leveling a tank sucks for it takes ages to kill anything". Whip out your DD buddy and you're golden. Leveling a healer? Whip out that DD guy and keep him alive. Leveling a DD? Shove your tank buddy ahead of you.
      Low/no downtime during questing. No sitting down and regenerating. 2-3 seconds of out of battle and you're back to nominal.
      A different, unique storyline for every class (4 mainclassses) per side. Some good (that agent story is just awesome), some bad (the jedi councilor story is a snorefest).
      Rather short ways to walk (at least 'til you get a ride... at least if you're a subscriber. See "the ugly" below) with pretty good direction indicators telling you just where to go in case you don't want to find out for yourself.
      Streamlined raids. It's a mixed blessing, but let's face it, who really liked the trash groups between bosses? They moved away from the extremes of the last raid batch (where you basically went from boss to boss with a token group of trashies in between), but trash packs of the current raids is still nothing that occupies you for more than 5 minutes between bosses).
      Customizeable armor. The stats of your stuff (at least in high level) reside on "parts" that can be put into or taken out of your armor. I.e. you can buy something that you like the look of, then rip out the "stat parts" of your raid gear and stuff it into the clothing you like. Yes, that means you can raid sensibly in Leia's slave outfit...

      The bad:
      It's basically WoW in Space. Same setup, same stat-optimizing, same triad of tank/healer/dd. You might consider that a good thing if you're just looking for WoW in space and don't want to get into anything unfamiliar, but personally, I was a bit disappointed. And of course pretty much all "the bad" from WoW applies, like...
      Usual tank shortage. With the usual moronic fix of "fast pass dungeons" for groups of DDs.
      Melee vs range DD problem. I.e. as a melee, don't count on being useful in a raid (especially with the current raids where movement is king and slowing effects are the staple of boss features).
      But it does have its unique crapshots, too...
      Anemic group sizes. 4 people standard group, 8 people raid, 16 people "double size raid". Yes, that makes the tank shortage even worse, why do you ask?
      No plugin support. Seriously, this is 2015 and there is NO support for any kind of scripting. Of course people found a way around this and managed to get some damage-meter going, but more despite EAs efforts. Not because of them.
      Crafting bonus depends on the companions you have. So some classes are better at crafting certain items than others. So far that would be ok, if it wasn't for some things only being sensibly craftable on either Imperial or Republican side.
      Answers you give in dialogues affect how much your companions like you. The more they like you, the more efficient they are in crafting and mission running (that's how you craft and harvest certain raw materials, companions do that, not you). In other words, your "freedom" to play your character is essentially limited by what your companions want to hear you say (making that Mass-Effect dialogue system a bit absurd).

      The ugly:
      Completely shot f2p model. Seriously, pay for a sub or just forget it altogether. The f2p is at best a lecture in frustration, at worst a reason to toss the game after a week. I don't even want to get into detail, just ... don't.
      The item shop. So far at least there are no items that actually net you a "stat" advantage (nothing you could buy from the real-money shop offer

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    37. Re:Good luck by Dins · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately this is not true

      Yep. You'd think it would, and original, unmodified vanilla WoW probably would run at like 1,000 fps on today's hardward. But they've added so much graphically with each expansion that it's similar in performance to a modern game. Maybe a little faster, but not much.

    38. Re:Good luck by Dins · · Score: 1

      In fact, if your real time numbers in recount go low, people will start demanding you pick up your share in vent, and then boot you from the raid... or just boot you from the raid before the boss goes down just for grins.

      Sounds like you've played with a bunch of assholes.

      You're either a hardcore raider/PVPer or you're not. If you are, that issue isn't a problem for you as you already will be "carrying your weight". If you aren't there are many smaller and more laid back guilds that would be happy to have you and don't care if you're 5% less efficient than the guy next to you.

    39. Re:Good luck by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      personally I hate PvP. I have a char on a PvP server, but since somewhere around Burning it got boring. So I just do PvE.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    40. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you play on a non-PvP server. How fucking hard is that?

      If you whine about problems you can solve so trivially, I wonder how you enjoy anything in life.

    41. Re:Good luck by RogueyWon · · Score: 2

      The grinding out of expansions was part of what lost me. Having all progress essentially reset every time a new expansion came out took away a lot of the "persistent world" thing that MMOs are supposed to do. A faster expansion cycle will do nothing to solve that problem, unless they stop raising the level cap (which they won't).

      WoW does seem to be in rapid decline now; there's even talk that its player numbers could cross-over with Final Fantasy XIV's at some point in the next 12 months, which would be the first time in a decade that WoW would not have been the largest subscription MMO in the world.

      Personally, I dabbled with vanilla played hardcore from early TBC through to late Lich King and came back casual for late Cataclysm and early Pandaria. I was driven out of hardcore raiding partly by the time-commitment and partly by the constant fucking around with classes and specs by Blizzard, sometimes for multiplayer balance (which I didn't give a shit about) and sometimes for no discernible reason at all. It took any sense of player-agency out of the game. I was driven out of casual play by the massive, overwhelming grind of tedious daily quests that Pandaria used to gate off access to even its casual-oriented endgame content.

      I never bought Warlords and, from what I've heard from my one acquaintance who still plays, I missed next to nothing.

      WoW won't "die" any time soon. Chances are, Blizzard will still be able to keep it profitable at 500,000 players, if they scale back their investment in development. But if Blizzard want to achieve MMO dominance again, they need an entirely new product now. WoW may not be dying, but it is yesterday's news. Even if you want a straightforward, traditional MMO, Square-Enix are just more competent at delivering that these days.

    42. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that WoW was taken over by the kids who wanted to brag about how powerful they are.

      When I started playing WoW (shortly before the first expansion) every region was filled with players - including the level 1 regions. People were running about and enjoying uncovering the *content* in the game. Clearing a region and getting to the point that one could actually venture into that nearby region that looked interesting from the border took time - and that was OK because the enjoyment of the game came from taking the time to go explore all the content. Each region had a fairly unique "feel" to it and something that was new/different from what was seen before. Players would form up groups just to go see what some place looked like and the chat was wry commentary on the content that was being found. The virtual world was huge and not easily navigated, which forced one to actually go through the content and experience it (there were a few, fixed transportation sites for long distance travel, but that was it). I still have pleasant memories of finally finding the hidden path near IronForge that let one get up to the incomplete dwarven airfields. Completely pointless from a "make me powerful" perspective, but completely fun from the figure out how to go find that content perspective.

      As the expansions came out, that experience was lost. It became more of a dash to see how quickly one could get to the end grinding game. The content was less and less appreciate and viewed more as a nuisance to get through in order to start grinding the same dungeons over and over again to collect enough tokens to buy the next piece of gear so that one could go into PvP battles and feel "powerful". The joy in exploring the content was lost and the game was dumbed down and streamlined to make it easier and faster to get to the end game (quests to go find an item were made trivial by having the item(s) glow in various ways, etc).

      By the time that WotLK came out, the initial starting regions were ghost towns. The only level 1 players to be found were alts for existing players who were typically running through dungeons as fast as they could by having a friend escort them with a level XX character who would blow away everything letting the low level character level up quickly.

      Now WoW has completely given up on new players and even having the existing players run through new content. One gets the expansion and *boom* your level is maxed out and you're playing the end game grind without having to go through all that pesky "content".

      It is truly a shame. I really enjoyed the experience of having some *new* to go explore - finding new content - wondering what would be in the next area. It was the exploration of something bright and shiny and new (and the sharing of that with the other players who were of the same mind) that made the game fun. The end game grinding so that one can fight other players is just not that interesting - and as a PvP combat game, it leaves a lot to be desired (hence why Blizzard is *constantly* changing the class specs in order to "balance" the game - it cannot be balanced because the game was never a good PvP combat system). I miss the original days of happily exploring new content with my snowshoe rabbit. I wish there was a game that would strive to recreate that original experience again instead of trying to rehash the PvP combat aspect of the game.

    43. Re:Good luck by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      PvP was pointless after world PvP ceased to be a serious thing. Arenas were "meh" to me, because it rewarded short gladiatorial battles with specialized stats and skills over having to find your enemy, set up a scenario, and attack. Hunting and even being hunted (if you're not completely outclassed) is more fun in world PvP.

      I even felt a bit of an achievement when I completed some PvE quests on a PvP server with good world PvP. Yeah, compared to the PvE servers we got everything done more slowly unless we went out as a guild in force to do things, but having to rely on a buddy can make the game more social and fun.

      To each their own. I personally dislike raping AI mobs in a repetitive way, and the best way to get a feeling of a different game during the grind was always the ever present possibility of having to defend yourself. Or going hunting.

      Of course world PvP stopped being something that people really truly did after the 1-60 vanilla, so I'd say that PvP did become PvE, only with slightly more annoyance afterward.

    44. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But than you are so much behind that you never can enjoy the end game content. Sigh, what am I talking about. I've never been able to keep up with my friends who worked regular hours, left the house holding to their partners and didn't have more active hobbies, except in ... vanilla.

      That was the only expansion where you could keep up with a group that had the same life style as you. You had the hard core players, the elite, who could show off how little there real life meant to them. And you had the 'casual' players who were happy to slowly progress. Things got easier over time because you ended up getting an upgrade here and there, and you could enjoy some boosting from a raid filled with a handful of 'hard cores' who wanted to do some old content again for some rare drop.

      This has all disappeared somewhere halfway the second expansion. I remember that there was an expansion that forced you to do daily quest to open up next content. How awful was that? For some no life kid it would take 1 to 2 weeks to progress. For me it would take over a year, or right into the 3th update. I would never be able to keep up since updates removed the need to finish earlier content.

      This was not true in the vanilla versions and early TBC. You still had to do all content and always could find a group of players that were at your level, who probably also had less time to play (or they wouldn't be so below average in progress). Although Blizzard tried to fix the progress of hard content for those one evening a week/2 week players by letting them save raid instances, they also removed the need to do the old raids. Simply because dungeon crawling offered better gear and was less of a headache to set up.
       
      They tried to fix the grinding, but by fixing the grinding, the increased the need to grind the most dumbed down content there is: dungeons.

      It's a shame really, they game was played by many of my 'nerdy' friends. I don't like chatting just for the chatting, but some chatting while playing a stupid game was always some fun. But chatting while doing the same boring instance yet again is simply not worth the time or effort. I prefer to go to my less 'nerdy' friends and have a drink after my daily run in the local pub or so.

    45. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The level difference and the difference in power killed world PVP. It was not uncommon for a lower level to kill someone with a 'skull' level rating. Now you can unleash all your power on a high level character and you will see that it only removes 0.001% of his hp bar, while when the opponent just uses his weakest ability on you, you are one shotted.

      It was not fun to be one shotted all the time by level 'skull' who just one shotted lower levels with a thrown weapon.

    46. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WoW does seem to be in rapid decline now; there's even talk that its player numbers could cross-over with Final Fantasy XIV's at some point in the next 12 months, which would be the first time in a decade that WoW would not have been the largest subscription MMO in the world.

      The only people who think that could happen are idiots. FFXIV peaked at like 2 million subscribers (supposedly) and has since dropped to as best as anyone can guess maybe a million. And that's the peak they hit with their recent expansion that no one has heard about because no one cares about a shitty Asian MMO. And that's after they released a Chinese version to inflate the subscriber numbers.

      Even if you want a straightforward, traditional MMO, Square-Enix are just more competent at delivering that these days.

      You've never played it, have you? It's the slowest, most boring MMO I've ever played. I don't think Blizzard is that frightened of Square Enix.

      Now Guild Wars 2, on the other hand, and it's nearly 3 million active player base, and which has a new expansion coming out soon - they might be able to take on WOW. Especially because Guild Wars 2 actually is a fairly innovative game and offers something new from older WOW-style "theme park" MMOs.

    47. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I will tell you a secret. It has never been fun, but it has always been highly addictive to some people. You know you do boring stuff, but get rewarded at the end and endorphins are released in your brain and you want more. After a while you only remember the pleasant things from the game. That time you were really lucky to get a real rare item. That other time when you killed 3 better geared characters in a 1 vs 3 fight. The good feelings you got when you finally completed hard content.
       
      The old content was always better, because you only remember the good things about it. But in reality it has always been boring, maybe even more, while trying to achieve your goals. It has always been a grind. Boring grinding, but simple and hypnotizing enough to keep on going, while being reward from time to time, filling your brain with the endorphins you were hunting for in reality (and not that particular drop).

    48. Re:Good luck by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      After everyone got into Kill The Magic mode, it got boring, unless you were playing as a Healer, and then you got one-shot by the Rogues so that got boring fast.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    49. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Try the Secret World.

      It's a strange game. It can be played as pretty much online single-player game... until dungeons. In fact, it's designed around soloing, at least as far as the initial PvE is concerned.

      Then you have huge raid instances and lairs, that pretty much require belonging to a "cabal" (guild/clan/whatnot).

      There's also some real "SRS business" PvP but thankfully you can just skip it altogether.

      Story, presentation, and characterization is awesome, though.

      10/10, would let non-copyright-infringing Cthulhu eat my face again.

    50. Re:Good luck by jewens · · Score: 1

      How about this for a game mechanic. If the level differential is too great penalize the higher level player with negative experience. Real world analog - while your average MLB player might be fantastic at slow-pitch softball, it's not going to help him hit a 95 mph fast ball.

      --
      That group of bovine standing over there appears quite portentous. That's right it's an ominous cow herd.
    51. Re:Good luck by vux984 · · Score: 1

      What are you on about?

      1) Most MMO's are PVE unless you go out of your way to enter a PvP area or accept a duel or something so other players can't kill you. Some are open PvP but most aren't.

      2) Most MMO's aren't FPS. Some are but most aren't.

      "If MMO means getting constantly killed by every asshole who does that for fun, I don't want to have anything to do with it."

      It doesn't mean that at all except for a small number of MMOs. There are lots of reasons not to like MMOs but your reasons are not really among them.

    52. Re:Good luck by nytes · · Score: 1

      IIRC, WoW tried something like that with the concept of "dishonorable kills". I don't know what the penalty was for it.

      I understand was not liked by the players very much, in part because it led to low level players griefing upper level players by deliberately running into their AOE and getting killed. In a heavily crowded world PvP scenario it was also hard to sort out the higher level character from the lower ones.

      The best solution in WoW is simply to play on a PvE realm, where PvP is completely optional.

      --
      -- I have monkeys in my pants.
    53. Re:Good luck by murdocj · · Score: 1

      There are nicer people out there. You don't have to play with jerks. When I played (I've been out for 2 years) we watched recount, but it was more of a "whoa, look what I did" sort of thing.

    54. Re:Good luck by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      And yet, I simply don't give a fuck if you think my reasons are valid or not. They're my damned reasons, they don't have to make sense to you or anybody else.

      But they're based on an actual experience, and your opinion of them is irrelevant.

      This was a decade (more?) ago, and when Microsoft started putting ads into a Tiger Woods golf game, the fact that I don't give a crap about connected gaming was only reinforced.

      Either I have to deal with the other gamers, or the assholes who think my video game experience is theirs to monetize.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    55. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I personally see it as something they could intermingle very well so long as they kept a few things in mine that I swear it seems as though they TRY to forget them.

      1) If the damage is too high for PvP, it is too high for PvE, tone it down and tune PvE accordingly.
      2) If they healing is too high in PvP, it is too high in PvE, tone it down and tune PvE accordingly.
      3) If the spell is too strong for PvP, it should not even be in the spell book to begin with. Remove it and tune PvE accordingly.

      These are every fixes that they completely ignore and instead try to bandaid the fixes in one fashion or another, I remember all the changes they did with resilience and they went and actually made it baseline when really all they needed to do was either remove it entirely and stick to the rules above or make it 100% free on the item budget and have it work like a double edged sword where it reduces damage done in PvE by the same amount it reduces incoming damage in PvP thereby making it weaker in PvE while still not entirely screwing everything up to accommodate PvP and PvE gearing being separate.

      They almost seem to forget that, in the PvE encounters, they are very easily able to retune everything that happens there without any impact in PvP while the opposite isn't true.

      And for the love of god, get rid of the Human racial or preferably racials in general. I was Horde during TBC and WotLK, from around that point on, every time I played I ended up going Alliance because the racials were flat out overpowered in most PvP environments and allowed for some nice stuff in PvE as well. Between the human built in trinket and the Night Elf ghetto vanish, I was pretty well setup in PvP on them better than about any other race and well ahead of anything the horde had.

    56. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I tried to have a conversation with a black man once. He pulled a knife and stole my wallet and phone. I'll never deal with blacks again, because my singular experience has demonstrated to me that all blacks are evil thieving niggers."

      And yet, I simply don't give a fuck if you think my reasons are valid or not. They're my damned reasons, they don't have to make sense to you or anybody else.

      But they're based on an actual experience, and your opinion of them is irrelevant.

    57. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was it Taikodom?

    58. Re:Good luck by dywolf · · Score: 1

      really I was (graphically) referring to the reduction and combining of server populations.
      In EQ it happened during the games most popular expansion and cut the number of servers by over half.
      so far wow has avoided doing that thanks to the whole crossrealm transparency thing, which works and covers it up, but ultimately I think the game does need it.

      --
      The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
    59. Re:Good luck by TheLink · · Score: 1

      I really don't think hardcore PvE and hardcore PvP can coexist because the fundamental gameplay mechanics that make PvE interesting do not exist in PvP,

      Guild Wars 1 had some skills that split to PvE and PvP versions for balancing reasons. The PvP stuff takes in effect in PvP matches.

      Too bad Arenanet/NCSoft has mostly abandoned Guild Wars 1 and only a few play it nowadays.

      It was a great game from the game mechanics perspective. Many like to praise Guild Wars 2 for doing away with the Holy Trinity, but the fact was Guild Wars 1 wasn't really based on the Holy Trinity from the start. In both PvE and PvP there were far more possible roles than Tank, Healer, DPS. There are shutdown builds, PvE minion masters, PvE runner, PvP split, PvP flag runner, frontline, linebacking, later on there was stuff like PvE spirit spammers, shadowform assasins and so on.

      For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
      This is a Guild vs Guild game where two split elementalists split off from their main team to go against a monk (healer) who is supposed to help defend the base (and who should have called for reinforcements on seeing more than one split ele).

      Then there are spike team builds where you need a bit more timing and coordination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      Then here's a guy playing a shutdown mesmer: http://www.twitch.tv/koodikoir...

      And not least for PvE you can have Heroes - which are a bit like semi-autonomous player controlled NPCs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
      (there used to be PvP where you had heroes, but Anet removed that PvP format, shame really).

      Problem was/is Guild Wars 1 was not so great from the community and social perspective (you can't send messages to people who are offline, no auction). And you can't queue up for PvP matches while doing PvE or other stuff.

      --
    60. Re: Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He wasn't talking about wow you asshat.

    61. Re:Good luck by Sumus+Semper+Una · · Score: 1

      After missing two expansions, I came back to WoW for the latest expansion and actually had a lot of fun... For a little while... I'll speak of my PvP experience, since that's where I spent most of my time.

      Actually, the whole "end game grinding so that one can fight other players" part was changed in the most recent expansion (possibly even back in Pandaria? I didn't play that expansion at all). There are now two levels of PvP gear: beginner and elite. Beginner gear is better in PvP and comparable in PvE to the gear you get from small PvE dungeons. Elite PvP gear is better than any other gear in the game for the purpose of PvP. The best raid gear from PvE is always worse than the current season's elite PvP gear, but only in PvP. They did this by scaling gear based on what you're doing. In most of the world, PvP gear is so-so and will get you by in seeing any of the game's content as long as you're not trying to do hardcore raiding. But as soon as you enter a PvP area or enter PvP combat with another player your stats from gear are all re-scaled to a much higher level if you're wearing PvP gear.

      Now you can get "beginner" PvP gear quickly and easily at the start of each PvP season by doing PvP, either through battlegrounds (random matchups on objective-based maps with anywhere from 10v10 to 40v40 combat) or the Ashran open-world PvP area (which, to varying degrees throughout the patches allowed you to get PvP items from the area's "events").

      But then, once you have the beginner gear, things get ugly. And this is why I canceled my subscription. Once you have your beginner gear, the only way to get elite PvP gear is to fight in 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5 arenas with pre-made teams or do 10v10 rated battlegrounds with pre-made teams. I left out a whole side story about being able to get elite gear at one point from Ashran because it was just silly and eventually went away anyway. And the only way you win the points necessary to get the elite gear is by winning... This led to incredibly toxic PvP experiences. You either played with your friends (and lost a lot if you were a casual player) or played with serious PvPers who were PvPing 4+ hours a day. Some of whom were also intense jerks. But the only way to avoid getting completely stomped by the serious PvPers in any PvP mode was to grind PvP for the elite gear, and the attraction to doing that is inversely proportional to the amount of time you're willing to invest in it.

      In the end, PvP did get noticeably better for a while in the latest expansion, but there's still a grind at the end, even if they did move it from PvE to PvP. And there have been constant complaints about the matchmaking system. Incidentally, that seems to be the most common complaint from players about Blizzard games in general nowadays. Anyway, they're definitely improving, but I'm still pretty surprised nobody has managed to unseat WoW for popularity in the classic MMO arena after all these years.

    62. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People always proclaim WoW's demise and yet it always rebounds during a new exp or patch. Regardless of what anyone would say WoW is still doing better than any other mmo in existence while still having a pay to play model.

    63. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ha ha noob
      pwnd

    64. Re:Good luck by towermac · · Score: 1

      You're slightly wrong in a couple of places.

      "By the time that WotLK came out, the initial starting regions were ghost towns. The only level 1 players to be found were alts for existing players who were typically running through dungeons as fast as they could by having a friend escort them with a level XX character who would blow away everything letting the low level character level up quickly."

      But that was okay. That was the game simply maturing. It's better to have a zone to yourself. It fits with the quests better. You zen into the zone, and you're the hero on a quest. Only you can save the people from the furblog and so on... It's not helping when there are 65 people clicking the same shiny.

      Happening upon a fellow compatriot, perhaps saving her, all alone in the wilderness; well that's good stuff man. I met some good people, lost somewhere in Azeroth, just like that.

      Now they're forcing it with combined realms and such. Everything wrong with WoW, almost everything since Wrath really, is Activision buying them, doing that good corporate thing, maximizing revenue, increasing accessibility; done by people that don't play the game.

      "the game was never a good PvP combat system"

      Did you do Wintergrasp? Tol-Barad? Rated BGs in Cata? That was epic shit dude. It was as close as they had gotten, and it was pretty darned good. Any class could play and compete. Hell, I was a PvP bear, when bears "weren't viable" in PvP. It was probably Blizz watching me that made them take the damn feral spec away.

      They were there. Almost there. Still some shit left to do, and tweak, and hone; but they were darned close to a good balance between grinding, and casuals getting in easily, and all that. I thought one thing was obvious: Given that PvP is the true end game, you balance PVP, and then design your PvE accordingly. I'd have done away with resilience and kept the 71 talent points.

      Sigh. That's why we don't play anymore.

    65. Re:Good luck by vux984 · · Score: 1

      They're my damned reasons, they don't have to make sense to you or anybody else.

      I don't drink pop because i tried it once and it was hot and burned my mouth. Some guy told me that lots of pop is served at reasonable temperatures; and usually even chilled; but fuck that guy. I'm still going to avoid drinking pop because I don't enjoy being burned. Its my damned reason and it doesn't need to make any sense.

      But they're based on an actual experience.

      I believe you. But most MMOs don't offer that constantly getting killed by other players experience by default, just as most pop you'll ever be served won't be too hot to drink.

      Either I have to deal with the other gamers, or the assholes who think my video game experience is theirs to monetize.

      Nope. There are plenty of online games where other players can be as much or as little involved with you as you like. World of Warcraft is one of them. And as for monetization... its a subscription based game to play it, with periodic expansions. Its certainly not "cheap" to play, but its not pay to win or full of microtransactions either. (at least not when i last played it long time ago). Most mmo's are going free-to-play so some sort of microtransaction monetization is inevitable -- and some games find a good balance, while others do not.

    66. Re:Good luck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know why people are so down on you, because your experience perfectly describes PVE as well. It's just that instead of being killed by players in PVE, you're being killed by the developers being assholes.

      Here's my basic MMO experience on a PVE server: make it through the intro bullshit until they finally let you play the game. Kill a level 1 thing. Realize that to make it to level 2 I'd need to kill like 100 of them. Find a higher level thing nearby, and get killed in one hit. Realize I paid like $60 and would have to pay a monthly fee on top of that for this "experience." Log off and write off yet another $60 lesson in never playing a game without a free demo. (And I can't believe I have to say "free demo" these days. People actually pay for demos these days. What the hell.)

  2. Work, work by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 2, Informative

    Is there anyone still playing this grindfest?

    1. Re:Work, work by riis138 · · Score: 2

      I switched to Guild Wars 2 a few years back along with some friends from work. The game is better suited for us former vanilla players that are now working 60+ hours a week at an IT firm.

      --
      Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -Carl Sagan
    2. Re:Work, work by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 2

      I really disliked the WoW update that changed the player models. It changed by cute doll-face night elf into a bad-looking bitch from hell.

      I find the FF XIV universe much more relaxing. And, you know... you get pretty miqo'te girls to look at, too.

    3. Re:Work, work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should have played TERA then. It's all about cute girls doing cute things.

    4. Re:Work, work by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Nope. Played Vanilla and BC for 4 years. I quite playing grindfests since they don't respect my time be it:

      Defiance, Destiny, Diablo 3, Eve, Guildwars 2, Path of Exile, Warframe, WoW, or just any other MMO which is just a monotonous rehash of

      * genocide
      * get phat loot
      * rinse-and-repeat for 100 levels.

      Much more fun is playing L4D, Team Fortress 2, Portal 2, or Minecraft with my gaming buddies.

    5. Re:Work, work by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 1

      I'll look into it, thank you.

    6. Re:Work, work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. Not because I don't have time because of work, but because I've long grown tired of fruitless, pointless, unhealthy hobbies.

    7. Re:Work, work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah I like the GW2 " story episodes" or whatever, they are great for busy folks (I'm 6 days a week IT atm.) I aslo like how easy it is to play with freinds regardless of lvl or gear (If you like pvp anyway.)
        I only jumped in WOW recently when I got a free week via email.
      I do however have many old gamer friends without careers enjoying WOW as they can pay there sub with gold fairly easily.

    8. Re:Work, work by U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M · · Score: 2

      If you like Minecraft, try Starbound and Terraria.

    9. Re:Work, work by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1

      Yup, Terraria is good! Update 1.3 just came out but haven't had time to play it yet. [Terraria] Has more depth then Minecraft (pardon the pun!)

    10. Re:Work, work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you like pretty you might want to look at Blade and Soul too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
      If you like cute they have cute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
      But the gameplay mechanics are rather different from WoW.

      I haven't actually played it before. I personally play Guild Wars 1 (which is dying slowly, but the I like the way the game/skill mechanics work).

  3. treadmill by The-Ixian · · Score: 1

    I will just barely have finished the Tanan Jungle grind by the time this expansion comes out...

    Of course, I am a complete casual who is all about the achievements and hardly ever raid or pvp...

    --
    My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    1. Re:treadmill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      casual

      all about the achievements

      wut

    2. Re:treadmill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      He means he likes to play solo, so he does shit he can do without having to deal with the asshatery that comes with social gaming. Also, 'the grind' is exactly why WoW is dead -- when WoW introduced 'chores' i.e. 'daily quests', the game went from fun and kind of interesting social experiment in the WoW universe to a crap program that uses the same tactics as gambling apps.

    3. Re:treadmill by TFlan91 · · Score: 1

      Yup.

      When they released the Sunwell raid at the tail end of BC and had it tied it with daily/weekly quest completion. I stopped playing. Haven't looked back

    4. Re:treadmill by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      Same here. I like solo, but team up with real FTF friends to do dungeons and raids. It's how I roll.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  4. Leeeeroy!!! by KatchooNJ · · Score: 1

    Call me when there's a Leeroy Jenkins class. I want THAT expansion! ;-)

    --
    "Never give up, for that is just the time and place when the tide will change." -Harriet Beecher Stowe ^_^
    1. Re:Leeeeroy!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      an cinematic teaser

      Wow! In Soulskill's dialect, C is a vowel!

    2. Re:Leeeeroy!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, C is just a U that has tipped over to the side.

    3. Re:Leeeeroy!!! by otomoton · · Score: 3, Funny

      I C what U did there...

  5. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think so.

  6. Artifacts by Reason58 · · Score: 1

    Interesting that they are finally implementing artifacts after pulling them out shortly after release. Will be interested to see how they balance them.

    1. Re:Artifacts by subanark · · Score: 2

      They are absolutely nothing like what was described back in the original wow days.
      Then: A unique item that only one person per server could have.
      Now: A leveling mechanic that allows you unlock bonuses different orders, but everyone will max out at or around when they hit max level. Definatly by the the top tier raid content.

      The balance will generally be ignored as it affects only a small part of the experience. Any tweaks to them will be class balancing, treating artifacts as core abilities.

    2. Re:Artifacts by jandrese · · Score: 1

      Wow, that was the original concept? A one-person per server trophy? What a colossally stupid idea, it's no wonder they ditched it. That one guy is going to get the stupid thing and then unsub. Or retire the character and play something else. At the very least he'll never step in a PvP area again. I can see why they never bothered to implement it.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    3. Re:Artifacts by subanark · · Score: 1

      It sounds stupid looking back now. But, consider that MMOs weren't that well refined back then. Doing something like this would be perfectly reasonable in D&D, people just didn't understand that providing content to a very select few individuals wouldn't be looked upon nicely by the community. I wouldn't be surprised if EQ and UO did this, but may not have popularized it as much.

      There actually is an item in the game that only one player across all servers in all regions has: Talisman of the Binding Shard (http://www.wowhead.com/item=17782/talisman-of-binding-shard)

      This item was accidentally included on the loot table of a boss as part of creating a legendary weapon that was later redone. The player got to keep the item though as although it was powerful for the time, it wasn't overly so.

    4. Re: Artifacts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, in Vanilla, if you did PvP, everyone's PvP score for the week was sorted and posted. The top person got some nice reward, a title, and an uber item that there was no other way of getting. The result was teams of people taking turns to play a single character 7x24 to get the most kills, and you actually had to be good because getting killed by a lower ranked character cost you more points than you would get by killing him.
      The problem was, not everyone ha a team to help them, so people were going without sleep for days to try to get ranked. I only got to Legionnaire, so I don't like that system at all, haha.
      Blizzard dumped that system due to its being harmful to the player base, and they did a similar thing in PvE, the once a week raid rewards.

    5. Re:Artifacts by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 0

      They weren't entirely one person per server - most of them were just ridiculously hard to get.

      To get ones like Thunderfury or Sulfuras, you had to be in a (likely top-tier) raid group that was clearing the top level raids. This took 40 people to accomplish, so even just getting that many people vaguely coordinated was a challenge, especially since it wasn't a mega loot-fest like today's raids are. Items for the quests to assemble those would (very rarely) drop in certain 40 man raids, and would generally go to one of the top players of the guild/group.

      But nothing stops anyone from going back and getting them. You can jump up to level 100, and go back and solo-faceroll those raids once a week until the items drop. A few quest steps later, and there you go, a shiny artifact to sit in your bank.

      This changed over time, to where they tinkered with dropping the quest entirely and making it an ultra rare end boss drop (Burning Crusade), a steadier but more grindy quest (Lich King, Cataclysm) to the model they have now, where basically everyone and their brother who does enough raids (even on the lowest possible difficulty) will eventually earn the artifact.

      To me this is sort of emblematic of how WoW has changed over time. It used to be that the top tier stuff meant you really were top tier - now all you're doing is spending tons of time to get something that everyone else will get 6+ months later.*

      *There are a few rare exceptions, mostly in terms of things that were taken out - artifacts/items from the original Naxxramas 40 man raid, certain titles, or any of the rewards from the event for the opening of the Gates of Ahn-Qiraj, which is about the only thing I can think of that's ever been one person per server. Even then, others could get it, but only if they did a turn-in of all the quest items within 1 hour or so of the first person turning it in. You can imagine how well THAT worked in practice, which is probably why Blizzard never did that again.

    6. Re: Artifacts by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I got to Legionnaire myself, but if you worked at it, you could solo to Lieutenant General, I know one of my friends did. I was decent at PvP, but not as good as he was, and I didn't have the time to grind to make up for my inability to take on all-comers.

      It was sort of cool that I had a title that no one else could have gotten again after they ended the program, although I'd gave preferred High Warlord. :)

    7. Re:Artifacts by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      IT wasnt dumb back when server pride actually meant something.

      --
      Good-bye
    8. Re:Artifacts by subanark · · Score: 1

      Don't confuse Legendary items with Artifacts (or for that matter Heirlooms).

      Artifacts were originally a tier above Legendary. There is still a reference to them in the current game:
      If your the group/raid leader type: /script SetLootThreshold(6) and you (along with everyone in the group) will see:
      Loot Threshold set to Artifact.

      You can normally only use the UI to set the threshold to Epic.

      See http://wowwiki.wikia.com/API_S...

    9. Re:Artifacts by ag0ny · · Score: 1

      This changed over time, to where they tinkered with dropping the quest entirely and making it an ultra rare end boss drop (Burning Crusade), a steadier but more grindy quest (Lich King, Cataclysm) to the model they have now, where basically everyone and their brother who does enough raids (even on the lowest possible difficulty) will eventually earn the artifact.

      Exactly. This is probably the biggest factor in making me leave WoW. It used to be that you used whatever gear you could get your hands on (as a holy paladin my toon used to wear some cloth items to increase spell power). There was more diversity, and you could very well estimate the skill and accomplishments of someone by looking at his gear. Then they introduced the token system, and after a little while everybody was wearing the same gear.

      I played since vanilla all the way through MoP. I got an invite for the WoD beta and logged in once, but didn't bother after that.

    10. Re:Artifacts by ag0ny · · Score: 1

      ...as a holy paladin my toon used to wear some cloth items to increase spell power...

      Oh, and a PvP mace in PvE raids, for the same reason.

    11. Re:Artifacts by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      The parent is wrong.
      There was only one server wide unique item, a special mount that was given as a reward just before the first expansion.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    12. Re:Artifacts by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      That's interesting - I'd never even seen anything beyond that datamined, so I'd sort of lumped the two together in my mind. Either way, there has never been any such "only one item per server" deal in actual play, though it may have been discussed in some of the initial dev plans. There's a lot of stuff that vanilla WoW intended to put in that was eventually tossed - stuff like houses, guild halls etc, learning languages (hence why the languages were initially shown as a 'skill'). These were legacy things they'd taken from Everquest, and originally planned to emulate, but later decided to drop, at least as I understand it.

      In a way it's sort of fascinating to look at some of the old ideas they had, and realize that WoW could have gone down very different development paths.

  7. rather have a different new class by dywolf · · Score: 1

    was rather hoping for the Spell Breaker instead, or another similar ranged/magic oriented type.

    yet another DW melee class is kinda meh.

    --
    The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
  8. Does WoW still suck? by JustNiz · · Score: 1

    I haven't played Wow for years. I decided it was ridiculous to continue since certain classes could/would just sneak up and stun you and keep you stunned for an entire fight, so the only option you had was to either sit there and watch them take their time kiliing you, or just log out and go do something else more fun, such as repeatedly bang your head on a wall.

    1. Re:Does WoW still suck? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      There were some ways out of stun lock, and it had diminishing returns, but yeah, it could be really annoying.

    2. Re:Does WoW still suck? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until the PvP trinket was normalized amongst all the classes and diminishing returns were changed for the third time, 100-0 stunlock was very doable if you had perfect timing; the target only got out of it if you screwed up. Not just new players either, I did this against fully epic'd players in top guilds. It's remarkable how many people didn't realize how overpowered the Rogue class used to be.

      The last time I 100-0'd someone without them being able to do a thing about it was sometime in early LK if I recall. And the large health pools of Cata finally put this stage of the game to rest.

  9. Game hasn't mattered for years by Thisstatementisfalse · · Score: 1

    Game went downhill after Wrath of the Lich King, it is now but a shadow of its former self.

  10. Back to Dalaran, Blizzards best move yet. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its a floating city so I assume its reasonable mobile if you have the right mages on board :)
    But yeah I was just arguing with a friend about the possibility of new city's of the scale of Stormwind or even say Dalaran, being unlikely at this point in WOW's development cycle.
    This is the perfect solution, a mobile city Designed for both factions, that everyone happens to love.
    Well played Blizzard, well played indeed.

  11. Short version: Buy Boats by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Think about the title.

    Will we get a free 100 boost with the expansion? Given that it would make sense, why not?

    Looking forward to playing a 110 Murloc Demon Hunter. Especially since I unlocked all my Heirlooms.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Short version: Buy Boats by topology · · Score: 1

      Looking forward to playing a 110 Murloc Demon Hunter. Especially since I unlocked all my Heirlooms.

      They have a new crafting skill specializing in tomato farming!?!

    2. Re:Short version: Buy Boats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In fact, all races and classes will be able to specialize in producing heirloom sour grapes.

    3. Re:Short version: Buy Boats by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

      No, in Darkmoon Faire. Mostly Deadly Nightshade and weapons and armor.

      --
      -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
  12. We are Legion... by KatchooNJ · · Score: 1

    We are Legion... and we are many... and we will bitch endlessly.

    --
    "Never give up, for that is just the time and place when the tide will change." -Harriet Beecher Stowe ^_^
  13. quit in 2006 by citylivin · · Score: 1

    Yeah i quit in 2006 or so upon realizing that the level cap of 60 would keep being raised so that my magisters gear that i spent months grinding for would be all but worthless. That wikipedia says blizzard currently has 7.1 million players is mind boggling. I guess if you invest so much time into something you dont want to leave and have it all have been "meaningless".

    I had some great times from release till i quit, that's for sure. But having to be on raids that took 6+ RL hours was a bit tedious and the forced obsolescence of gear is what really makes it completely pointless. They have to keep increasing the level cap because once you have all the gear you lust after, there is little point to playing anymore. So its really a catch 22.

    Can't believe its still going strong after all these years. I really thought it wouldn't last past 2008 or so, but they keep making more expansions.

    --
    As a potential lottery winner, I totally support tax cuts for the wealthy
    1. Re:quit in 2006 by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      As someone who played in endgame raiding guilds, it always annoyed me that in just one expansion, I'd have to get up and grind to the next level and then fight to be back on top again.

      At the same time, though, there is always a desire to improve your character and do more epic things.

      So, I was torn. I hated the way the game could become a job, just to stand still, but at the same time, I did want more things to do. I suppose if I had done less grinding to get where I was, I'd have taken it better when I had to get off my ass (obviously proverbially, not literally) and get back to grinding after the next expansion.

      The one thing that sort of helped were that there were some titles you'd only end up with if you'd played the game at a time when certain events happened. Some way of having a permanent distinction that newbs couldn't get no matter how much they ground.

  14. QQ more newb. L2P! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They made PvE servers just for people like you.

  15. 5.6 million by wxxy___ · · Score: 2

    Blizzard's most recent shareholders earnings call was 2 days ago, and it revealed that WoW is down to 5.6 million subscribers at the end of Q2 2015. It's the lowest reported number since vanilla, but I'd say its still pretty good for a decade old game, and far above other mmos

  16. Movie by munwin99 · · Score: 1

    Personally I'd love it if Blizzard simply made the WoW movie the same as they do for these trailers. At least we know it's fake (as opposed to dressing up people and using effects to look 'real'), just run with it and make good use of it as they do now.

    --
    What's On Your Network ??? http://www.open-audit.org/
  17. PVP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if the PVP changes will make it better for people who like PVP or targeted towards getting people who are not interested in PVP (and probably never will be).

    The way I see it if you were a racing car driver, you wouldn't take your mothers car to the race track and expect to win. About 6 years ago when they took twinks out of the game - but let nubs in heirlooms own the battlefields was the day all was lost for people who like PVP.

    Building a level 19 twink was both fun and challenging, building a level 60 twink (when the cap was 80) was also fun and challenging, throwing some heirlooms on a level 12 is neither.

    Good luck to them - but I won't be playing.

    1. Re:PVP by Some_Llama · · Score: 1

      they took out twinks?

      IIRC they did at first but people bitched so they added a way to stop your exp cap manually so that pvp didn't give you xp.

      I think it might have been all in one update (adding xp for pvp players and the ability to turn it off).

  18. I'd play again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Coming from the beta days I'd like to see one server tuned perfectly for the the original game. Max level 60 only, starting with nothing from day one. No transfers, no cash, just the first quest. The only thing I'd like changed is the drop rate for dungeons, everyone gets something tuned to their character. Running 20 or 40 man raids and rolling for a few tier pieces sux'd. I liked my Moose helmet when it finally dropped and I won the roll. The best part of the game was talking to people (some drunk) all over the world, we all became very good friends. Just a thought ... Boogywooler

    1. Re:I'd play again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Completely agree with this.

    2. Re:I'd play again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My guild had gotten to the point where we could run Molten Core. I took us a lot of time to figure the bosses out, and we got to the point where we could see Ragnaros. One run, we were all working fine on him and then we started to drop. I forget the details, but he was nearly dead and we only had a couple of people still alive. Those few people bounced the right combination of things between each other and were able to take him down at the last possible moment. 2 people were still alive at the very end, but it was a very close call. Teamspeak or Ventrillo (we switched at some point) helped a lot. I had recorded a bunch of chat sessions mostly to make clips for the drunk Australian we had. Lots of fun, and I miss it a bit. It has transformed too much and isn't fun at all anymore. I gave up a few years ago, and laughed when I recently got an email from Blizzard to come back for a week. I don't know how they could reuse some of the older regions (or if they have been doing so), but I remember how weird it was to go through a region and not see anybody else. Kinda sad.

  19. The missing M by Texmaize · · Score: 2

    There are many issues with WOW, but the greatest is the missing M. When i last logged into wow, I felt...lonely. No one talked to me. I really did not encounter anyone. There were people in Stormwind, but they could have all been NPCS for all I could tell. I no longer needed to group for quests. I did not need to ever talk to someone in an entire dungeon or raid. Wow no longer felt massive or multiplayer. This breaks my heart, and I will never forgive the people who did this.

    --
    "Liberalism is a very noble idea, currently controlled by some very bad people. Be sure you do not get the two confused.
  20. WoW is not a decade old game. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just want to point out that while vanilla WoW is a decade old game, current WoW is not. The population of private servers that play vanilla is peanuts compared to the population of retail.

    Yes, there's a smooth transition through expansions, but go find a vanilla private server and you'll discover that it is vastly different. The models are different, the mechanics are different, and the play style is different. Which is better? Does it matter?

    Blizzard knew that to make WoW all they had to do was copy existing MMOs and make improvements based on their objective outside observations. Then they ate the MMO market and could no longer make those observations. The only way forward as a business is now a blind guess on their part.

    WoW 2 is already here. It has been for a while.

    1. Re:WoW is not a decade old game. by Some_Llama · · Score: 1

      i'd mod you insightful if i had points.. i think this sums up all of the comments so far that i've seen here... people bitch about it should be this or they should ahve done that, but at it's core is their inability to actually know what people want, the constant stream of love/hate from every change tells them nothing and they have no way to be truely objective about it since the only feedback that gets noticed is the ones that yell the loudest and they can never be satisfied.

  21. F2P by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    I've yet to see any F2P system work, with one notable exception: DOTA2.

    As far as WOW is concerned, I played for a number of years, and this was my experience: Keep in mind I never got into the PVP stuff, so that is out of my realm of knowledge, however as far as PVE there were a number of problems. The first is there is two type of players that play PVE. The first is people who enjoy leveling. They are some sort of weird breed that apparently likes grinding punishment. The simple fact was most "quests" were pretty much all the same. Go here and kill X number of something. Go here and collect X and bring it to Y. Repeat. The other group of people were the end game folks, or raiders. I eventually fell into this category. However the difficulty was really A) finding a good guild, and B) actually running a raid. I found that most wanted to do it at hours not really all that conducive to having a regular job. That is to say they want to raid between 1 and 3am, where I have to get up and work. On top of that, you would inevitably spend more time waiting around for people to show up, start late, and then go longer, making it even more unreasonable. More less why I quit, just couldn't keep it up. WOW also has some global issues that all players faced, like every new expansion coming out makes all your hard earned gear useless, and earning gold through crafting, gathering, and the market tedious and a bit crazy when you think about it. I recall getting off work, and going to play WOW where I am basically just getting in a couple of hours of mining and crafting for example, a second job really...

    I had a very brief encounter with SWTOR, and would echo much of what your experienced. The first is I would say is the voice acting was something unique to that game, it was astounding at times really. Yes broken f2p model, which you could tell was pretty adhoc due to the fact they spent so much on the game, and the sell rate, and subscription rate, and the keeping rate of players was so poor they had to do something. I think a big part of that was what you summed up by saying it was "WOW in space". The "quests" had the same issue. Go here, kill X somethings, go here collect X somethings bring them to Y, repeat forever. Never did a raid or PVP as the f2p killed it before I got very far...

    What I would *love* to see, would be something like eve online, but with less to do with markets and making money, and more to do with X-Wing VS Tie Fighter. Big battles with Star Destroyers, and Fighters, and big teams, etc... Fun times that would be,,, I recall some great mission variance as well from the old game. Gimmie MMO X-Wing VS Tie Fighter and take my damn money! :)

    1. Re:F2P by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I am that odd breed. Then again, I have been leveling 8 characters to max level including master crafter in DAoC. Nothing spells grind like this does. Seriously, if you consider today's MMOs grindfests, don't ever look back to the old days when there were no/few quests and mostly slaughtering the same mobs over and over and over and over.

      In a group, too, for you could not even kill a single monster on your own.

      If you're used to that kind of gameplay, even grinding dailies with 10 characters feels like doing something worthwhile...

      But on topic.

      What you describe sounds a bit like the space battle PvP they introduced in SWTOR a year ago or so. It was the only kind of PvP I ever got into, and it was pretty well done, too. No "target enemy by clicking on him, press button, hope for the roll", but actual aiming and shooting. Pretty well done (and no, I'm not talking about their inane rail shooter).

      As a f2p player of course you may only do a handful of battles a week as far as I know, but that should do to get a taste of it. No leveling required (although you can benefit from playing a few of those PvP battles to gain better ships, more rockets, faster turning speed, you get the idea).

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.