Slashdot Mirror


Company Testing Standardized Salaries Is Struggling

jmcbain writes: In April 2015, Dan Price, the CEO of online payments company Gravity Payments based in Seattle, announced that all employees would have their salary bumped up to a minimum $70,000. Slashdot covered this news. Since that time, however, things have not gone well. Some employees quit because they felt it was unfair to double the pay of some new hires while the longest-serving staff members got small or no raises. Furthermore, after reducing his own salary from $1M to $70K, Mr. Price is now renting a house 'to make ends meet'. On an unrelated note, Mr. Price's brother, who is a co-founder of the company, is suing him.

26 of 480 comments (clear)

  1. Ha! by enigma32 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Imagine that.

    Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

    1. Re:Ha! by cirby · · Score: 4, Informative

      ...except that's not actually true.

      For example, there's been the long-running practice of reenlistment bonuses. Different jobs get much higher bonuses for reenlisting.

      The base pay may be the same, but the difference between, say, a low-ranking cook and a low-ranking nuclear weapons technician is pretty startling when that bonus is calculated. As in "tens of thousands of dollars."

    2. Re:Ha! by ganjadude · · Score: 4, Informative

      people are leaving because they dont feel valued when someone who just got hired is making as much as them, having been there for 10 years.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    3. Re:Ha! by waynemcdougall · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Imagine that.

      Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

      No. This is a common mistake. It is wrong.

      Differences in pay exist because of supply and demand. If there are many people willing to do your job, then pay for that job will be low, even if your job is valuable (see nursing, teaching, etc). Yes, many jobs we "value" are highly-paid (but not all). But that is because there is greater demand (or less supply) for people to fill those jobs.

      In short, do not confuse correlation (high value jobs have high pay) with causation (we do NOT give high pay to people with high value jobs because we value the jobs).

      We pay people what we need to pay in order to find someone to do the job. That is the "value" of the job - as an economic valuation. Do not confuse that with the moral worth of the job. Or its intrinsic value to the employer.

      --
      Recycle PCs and build a wireless community network www.hillsborough.org.nz
    4. Re:Ha! by geoskd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If i just spent 100 grand on a 4 year degree and gave 2 years to this company i wouldnt be as happy about it

      Why? Nobody except the CEO took a pay cut. In fact everyone got at least a small raise. These guys are actively unhappy because *someone else* got a fair shake for a change? Thats just retarded, mean and more than a little childish. I could see if they had been given a paycut, but they were in no way affected except that someone they work with got a windfall. If you weren't getting a fair wage, then why were you still working there? If you were getting a fair wage then GROW UP.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    5. Re:Ha! by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Imagine that.

      Differences in pay exist for a reason: Because different people perform functions of different value to the company.

      And some people feel they deserve more pay than others, regardless of whether that's actually true. Don't underestimate the power of "ego".

      Why, actually, does it matter to one person what another gets paid? If *you* are getting paid a fair wage for your efforts and can live the life you want/need to live, why does anything else matter? It's not a contest of whoever has the most wins.

      Personally, I make more than I need. I have deferred raises in favor of my teammates who need the extra money more. I have volunteered to take time off w/o pay, when the work load permits, to prevent teammates from being laid off. They have families and bills, my wife died in 2006 and I'm debt free. In the past 9.5 years, I've given about $100k to friends who were in trouble, through (almost) no fault of their own or who needed something extra to pursue bettering themselves. They didn't ask for help and were willing/trying to make it on their own -- I could help so I did.

      I have also had a few comments about my behavior. A few years ago, when I volunteered to reduce my hours to reduce the impact of a budget shortfall on my teammates, because I could live on less money, one of my manager's managers remarked that I could keep working and give him the extra money I didn't need. I replied that would be happy to give him *all* my money, if he'd give me my wife back. (Haven't heard from him since.)

      According to a NYT article, Dan Price bumped the salaries of his employees when he learned that many people were having trouble making ends meet on their salaries and decided to pay them a more livable salary. Some of his other employees got ticked off because of what they think people *deserve* to be paid.

      Some CEOs make 100-300 times what their lowest-paid employee makes. Based on the CEOs you know or know about is that right? Perhaps we'd all be better off if people concerned themselves less on what they *can* earn and more on what they need to earn and about the benefit of their teammates and, if you're in management, the benefit of the company as a whole. Employees that feel valued -- really valued, not that "employees are our most valuable asset" bullshit -- and secure are often better employees as they have less to fear and worry about.

      I will be writing Dan an actual snail-mail letter commending him on his actions and wishing him the best.

      Remember Sue...

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    6. Re: Ha! by JDAustin · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yea, they were. I had deal w/ the Occupy smell on almost a daily basis in Oakland. The hammer and sickle was a very common sign then.

    7. Re:Ha! by khallow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      These guys are actively unhappy because *someone else* got a fair shake for a change?

      Here's a protip: when only some people get the "fair shake", then it's not a fair shake.

    8. Re: Ha! by epyT-R · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Socialism doesn't work because people are NOT equal in ability or utility to an organization. Equalizing the payoff for everyone just disenfranchises those who end up doing the majority of the work. The real question is how much more of society are we going to ruin in vain attempts to disprove that. Sure he can run his own company any way he likes (assuming no shareholders), but it sounds like his attempt at social 'justice' isn't going any better than others have. It just builds resentment and infighting.

      Too much price fixing ends up damaging other companies providing prereq goods and services. Then the state has to step in to 'save' them as well. Eventually the whole 'market' is centralized and dictated by politics and feelings of a ruling class rather than the realities of cost and consumer demand. Then it rots away eg: the Soviet Union.

    9. Re: Ha! by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Well with regard to point 2, I don't see why these guys just move to a lower cost area. Every time I mention it to them, they babble something like they have the "right" to live there. For reference, $1094 a month's rent gets me:

      1) 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom, living room, big kitchen, total 781 square feet, single floor unit and located on the first floor.
      2) Two very large swimming pools (one of them has a beach style entry and sand pits) spa, gas powered grills that are free to use, cabanas, outdoor TVs.
      3) Gated community, with a unique gate code per unit, and a remote for the gate so no reason to stop and reach for the number pad when you drive in
      4) Trash butler who comes to my front porch and picks up my trash
      5) Keyless entry to the pools (uses an NFC fob)
      6) Same day service when I something breaks (for example, I called to complain that my AC was too loud, and somebody fixed it a few hours later. Dishwasher wasn't working, fixed the next morning.)
      7) Fiber internet (max tier is gig)
      8) Total cost for electricity and gas ends up being another $110 a month during the summer. Since this is in Arizona, heating costs are minimal during the winter.
      9) Fitness center, with free gym classes.
      10) Nice mountain view, and lots of nice places to eat and shop are within walking distance.

      And yes, the figure I quoted above includes all of the amenities and taxes. At the start of the month, that's the exact amount I pay.

      Tell me how much something like that costs in San Francisco or New York.

  2. GTFO! by tehlinux · · Score: 4, Funny

    Wait, so great employees don't like making the same as their mediocre colleagues?! Get the #*@! out of here!

    --
    Most linux users don't know this, but the man pages were named after Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris fsck'ing hates noobs!
  3. Life imitating art? by K.+S.+Van+Horn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This sounds like something out of an Ayn Rand novel. It's very similar to something that happens in Atlas Shrugged.

    1. Re:Life imitating art? by K.+S.+Van+Horn · · Score: 5, Informative

      John Galt, the pivotal figure in Atlas Shrugged, once worked as an engineer with the fictional Twentieth Century Motor Company. After the original owner died, his heirs decided that employees would work according to their ability, but be paid according to their needs.

      Needless to say, it did not work out well.

    2. Re:Life imitating art? by CauseBy · · Score: 5, Informative

      I tried. I got the book and started reading. When I got page 100 I stopped and thought about what I had read, which was nothing. Whatever story she tried to tell in that book, she took her sweet time in getting the plot going. I threw the book away. Any author who can't start a story within 100 pages is a shit author who needs a better editor.

      Maybe I'll try again someday. I'll start halfway through the book and see if maybe the story starts by then.

    3. Re:Life imitating art? by Stormwatch · · Score: 5, Informative

      WARNING, SPOILERS AHEAD

      Halfway through the novel, the protagonist meets a hobo who used to be a worker at the Twentieth Century Motor Company, whose bankruptcy years before was a key event in the novel for several reasons. He tells what had actually happened there:

      After the founder's death, the heirs decided to manage the company under the motto: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." The consequence was obvious: all workers pretty much turned into beggars, inventing more needs, while anyone who demonstrated competence was required to work harder. While the press praised the "enlightened" management, productivity collapsed, quality went to shit, and clients ran away.

    4. Re:Life imitating art? by dbIII · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Needless to say, it did not work out well.

      Of course it didn't, because it was a pre-determined strawman in a novel as a snarky complaint about Rand not being paid what she thought she deserved by Twentieth Century Fox in her entry level job.
      Rand was so fucked up that she was comparing Hollywood employment to Soviet Russia! Read a bit about Rand's life and you'll understand where she is coming from and that she knew almost nothing about the the west and did not wish to know much about the west. She hated Stalin, but if Stalin had wanted to plant the seeds of political discord in the USA with a political movement he couldn't have done better than Rand no matter who he paid to do it.

      Her fantasies are Twilight for people in a democracy that wish they could be Royalty instead, and they fuck up anyone that takes them at more than face value. The message that you could be special if it wasn't for all of those Serfs having a say in how the country is run is utterly fucked. You should have to earn the right to rule instead of being born to it like Digby.

  4. Just Like Walmart by onkelonkel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Same thing happened at walmart when they bumped their lowest paid workers up to the minimum wage.
     
    http://business.financialpost.com/news/retail-marketing/wal-marts-pay-raise-creates-thousands-of-unhappy-workers-its-pitting-people-against-each-other
     
    Senior workers got no raise and feel disrespected.

    --
    None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
  5. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've seen minimum wage go up by 40% since I entered the work force, but my own salary has only gone up by 25% in that same period.

    You know that the minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation in over two decades, right? So if your wages are doing even more poorly than the minimum wage, you're getting fucked and hard. But you're complaining about the people who are getting fucked way harder than you, because them getting fucked slightly less hard means you get fucked slightly harder. What about the people doing the fucking? Maybe you should stop attacking your natural allies.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  6. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But you don't understand! it's absolutely unfair that Timmy had 3 marbles and got 3 more, and he had 10 marbles and only got 2 more! ITS NOT FAIR!!1! He demands at least 4 marbles or he's going to flip his shit and go full on ballistic temper tantrum followed by pouting for the rest of the afternoon!

  7. That NYT article in full by Bearhouse · · Score: 5, Informative

    Having run a company, I can get this...it's a refreshing and seemingly decent approach to sharing the wealth.
    Great contrast to all the money-grabbing, "screw the employee" bosses that are in the news all the time.
    Maybe where he went wrong is not allowing an "upside".
    Sure, not everybody who *thinks* they deserve extra really do.
    But in my experience some sure as hell do...the trick is to identify them and give them fair value.
    (My top staff regularly got 20% over market rates - they earned me far more, so I was happy to pay.)

    Snip: "You can ignore economics, but economics won’t ignore you.
    That’s the tough lesson Dan Price, CEO of Gravity Payments, a Seattle credit-card processing company, is learning.
    Four months ago, Price announced he’d slash his own multimillion-dollar pay and set a company-wide $70,000 minimum wage.
    He got the idea after a friend explained her difficulty paying back student loans and surviving on $40,000 a year — a salary many Gravity employees were making.
    Price’s stand against income inequality made him an immediate darling of the left.
    But key employees saw it differently.
    Financial manager Maisey McMaster liked the idea at first — until she thought about it.
    “He gave raises to people who have the least skills and are least equipped to do the job,” she told The New York Times. Meanwhile, “The ones who were taking on the most didn’t get much of a bump.”
    She thought it would be fairer to give smaller raises, with the clear chance to earn more with experience. Price brushed off her doubts; she quit.
    Also out the door: Web developer Grant Moran. He says, “Now the people who were just clocking in and out were making the same as me.” Plus, having your pay level a very public matter is a problem, with “friends now calling you for a loan.”
    Moral of the story: Some people work harder than others; some have stronger skills — and they don’t think it’s fair that they’re paid the same as others.
    Price will soon be left only with workers worth his chosen minimum wage — or less.
    The company is already in chaos thanks to the policy — but the big problem is ahead, as it tries to keep growing and innovating with only mediocre talent"

    1. Re:That NYT article in full by laird · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Don't leave out that the business is booming, doing much more business than before, and getting tons of applications from high quality candidates attracted by the higher wages.

      So yes, the transition might be bumpy. But nobody's salary went down, so they're all making at least what they agreed to for their job. It seems weird to me that people are angry that while they got a raise, but so did lower paid workers, so they aren't making as much more than the other guy as they used to.

      A good writeup is at http://www.forbes.com/sites/mi... .

    2. Re:That NYT article in full by Shadow+of+Eternity · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And in the meantime those two selfish assholes who quit solely because they couldn't stand to see other people not treated worse than them have made themselves radioactive. Why would I ever want to hire people who might throw a huge public tantrum and quit because I don't treat other people badly enough to soothe their ego?

      --
      A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
    3. Re:That NYT article in full by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Indeed. Gravity Payments isn't struggling. They've lost a few customers, but they've gained so many new customers that they had to hire new employees to handle them all. The CEO's salary reduction isn't enough to cover additional new hires forever - he went from a million dollars salary to $70k, and gave all that money to the employees. So the company has to pay for the new hires' minimum 70k salary, and pay it out of the millions they're making from the massive growth surge Price has created with his generosity.
      Yes two employees have quit. Yes Price is being sued by his brother. Sour grapes, all of them, pissed off because others were getting goodies and they weren't.
      The big story here is how economists somehow fail to report the hugely increased profitability of the company.

  8. Re:Those making more than new minimum salary by RyoShin · · Score: 4, Informative

    In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.

    - Franklin Roosevelt's Statement on the National Industrial Recovery Act (16 June 1933)

    Emphasis mine. The NIR Act established the first minimum wage in America (this was struck down in 1935, ruled unconstitutional by the SC, but a subsequent Act establishing a minimum wage was upheld by the SC in 1941, under that magical Commerce Clause.)

    Granted, he doesn't say the family size that decent living would support, but lacking statements to the contrary I assume at least a three-person household. But a temp wage? No, that does not appear to be the intention of it. Big business and our government has twisted and contorted it over the decades to be just a minimum wage paid to people... but if it can't cover life's basics, then what is the point of it at all?

  9. Re:Heart's in the right place... by eulernet · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There is a saying in France that says:

    "the heart is on the left, but the wallet is on the right."

    While I partly agree with you, I would like to share my own experience.

    20 years ago, I worked for a game company where the boss wanted full equality, so he paid everybody around the same salary.
    While the approach is humanist, in the end it did more bad than good.

    There was a huge trust between members, but beginners were terrible and were slowing down the experienced people.
    I wholeheartedly loved working for this company, but it collapsed after finishing the first game.

    The lessons are:

    1) pay people as low as you can, but as much as they need to live a comfortable life (and won't want to quit your company). Everybody has different needs, and I don't count "home cinema" as a need !
    2) pay well your better workers, don't count on their faithfulness especially if you fire people randomly
    3) be frank. People (especially the awful workers) are obsessed why they don't earn as much as their colleagues. Tell them why they don't deserve a higher salary.

  10. Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Those who can contribute significant, above-and-beyond value naturally feel that people should be rewarded in proportion to their contributions.

    Those who cannot contribute significant, above-and-beyond value naturally feel that everyone should receive equal rewards, regardless of their contributions.

    By setting policies that pander to the second group, you wind up losing members of the first group, resulting in a company full of under-performing slackers. No surprise such a company doesn't do well.