The LibreOffice Story

An anonymous reader writes: Jono Bacon in his latest column writes about the story of LibreOffice and how it rose out of the ashes of StarOffice and OpenOffice.org. Bacon also touches on why he feels LibreOffice is such a key piece of Open Source for communities across the world. Jono says: "To look at LibreOffice today and compare it to Microsoft Office can be tempting. Sure, LibreOffice does not provide the same level of features and finesse Microsoft's suite may boast, but when I think of the before and after vanity shots of the suite back in 1999 and today, what the community has accomplished is phenomenal. Developing LibreOffice has been hard, technically challenging, and at times demotivating work, and contributors' efforts can be seen by millions of users across the world."

Comments

SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[lesincompetent]

The FOSS movement should go all-in with LibreOffice in an effort to provide a perfect alternative to MS office.
Reliance on MS office is the only thing that holds back many of my folks (familiy, friends) from a total FOSS conversion of their computing habits.
Yes i said "perfect". It is feasible and there are no excuses.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[MacTO]

It is a pretty safe bet that your family and friends are just using Microsoft Office as an excuse to avoid talking about Linux.

Most of the people I encounter can barely use the basic functionality of Microsoft Office, which is something that LibreOffice has covered. When you step up to more advanced features, which LibreOffice mostly have covered, you're talking about stuff that is used by a dedicated group of people. Then you have the features that are largely designed for corporate environments, which would hardly be ever used by individuals even if they used those features in the workplace. Even if LibreOffice doesn't support one of those features, it wouldn't matter.

So what those people are probably saying amounts to: they are comfortable with what they have and don't want to learn something new (may that be Linux or LibreOffice).

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[nine-times]

It is a pretty safe bet that your family and friends are just using Microsoft Office as an excuse to avoid talking about Linux.

That wouldn't make a lot of sense, since my family and friends don't know what Linux is.

Most of the people I encounter can barely use the basic functionality of Microsoft Office, which is something that LibreOffice has covered.

It's true enough, but honestly, it needs to be prettier. I know it's superficial and stupid, and everyone here will say that LibreOffice shouldn't bother trying to look "pretty" or that it's already "pretty" enough, but here's the thing: I've always had terrible luck getting people to use LibreOffice. My impression is that there's no particular reason in terms of functionality, but it looks to them like it's a cheap knock-off of an old version of Microsoft Office. On both Windows and Mac, the icons seem a bit out of place, the UI takes up too much screen real-estate because things are kind of spread out, the default fonts and formatting are less attractive, the dialog boxes don't look native to the OS, and I don't even know what else people are reacting to. I think some people are confused by the way that it's sort of all one single application, but also a bunch of different applications, depending on how you launch it...?

Anyway, I can't get people to use it, even when it's exactly the tool they need. I've had an easier time getting people to use Apple's Pages/Sheets, and not for technical reasons, but because the app is prettier, the templates are prettier, and it feels easier to make a pretty document. At least, that's what I think the difference is.

But suggesting that aesthetics matter has always been blasphemy here at Slashdot.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Anonymous Coward]

What you're missing is the fact that most normal users still get files from other people, and these still don't always render correctly. For example, my kids' teachers will send out documents in Word or Powerpoint; often the clipart they love so dearly is oddly reformatted and covers text. And when the teacher assigns a PowerPoint presentation to be created, and ends up grading on the prettiness of the template, and Libre Office has only bare-bones templates, it's a bummer. Little stuff like that can be a surprisingly big hurdle; I now have a laptop with Office loaded just for these types of cases.
For document generation, Libre Office is awesome and does everything I need.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[nine-times]

Creating a "perfect" alternative to MS Office is harder than just engineering an office suite. LibreOffice is great in many ways, but one of the things that keeps many people on MS Office is that they've built their workflows on Outlook. Those workflows don't only depend on Outlook, but through Outlook they depend on Exchange. So if you really want to displace Microsoft, you have to create a mail/groupware client to Outlook, either by creating one compatible with Exchange or creating groupware server to replace Exchange as well. Or you need to create an alternative to both of those things that won't screw up businesses' workflows. Or I guess you can convince businesses to overhaul their workflows.

The issue of "workflow" is a huge issue that too many people ignore. Even if a different software solution provides all the same "functionality", if it requires people to change how they work, they aren't going to go for it. It's especially difficult if it changes the way people work by requiring frequent repetitive steps (e.g. if you can do all the same things, but if doing it in Microsoft Office requires 2 clicks and LibreOffice requires 5 clicks, then people are going to get frustrated).

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[FranTaylor]

And when the teacher assigns a PowerPoint presentation to be created

fuck me, the world really is coming to an end

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[ColdWetDog]

Maybe he means .... the Ribbon.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[CastrTroy]

Personally, I don't even care for office suites at home. I can't remember that last time I actually used one. Last time I wanted to use an office suite, I used Libre Office and it got the job done just fine. What's actually holding me back from using Linux at home is hardware support.

There's always something that doesn't work on my computers. The last time I tried to install it, it was the video drivers that didn't work. They worked well enough to run the desktop, but as soon as I tried to play a game (or even test with GLXgears) the performance was abysmal. Other computers had problems with the wireless cards not working correctly. I'm sure if I picked a computer specifically checking that each of the components would work with Linux, then I could get a machine that worked properly, but that's a lot of effort to put into building a computer.

There's also a much smaller selection of games that run on Linux. I know there are a lot more games than there used to be, but with Windows I don't have to wonder if the next big game is going to support my operating system, because all the games will support my operating system. With office suites you can swap one for another and not really have a problem. When I want to play a game, I want to play a specific game, not some other game that kind of has the same gameplay mechanics.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[qpqp]

Actually, last time I looked, there were completely free MAPI connectors to break out of that ecosystem, as well as Free exchange clients that cover most, if not all functionality of the Outlook/Exchange combo, including calendaring.
It's been a while, so I don't remember the links anymore and I didn't take notes unfortunately, but they were easy to find (I believe, I started drilling down from sogo.nu and the enterprise gateway all in one live-cds like Zentyal, through which I found openchange). This was a bit from the other perspective (i.e. replace Exchange, not necessarily Outlook, but even that area benefitted from a huge improvement in relation to ~10-12 years ago, when I last was looking for that).

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[armanox]

Powerpoint will restructure everything if you open it on a screen with a different aspect ratio....Or open it on a Mac instead of Windows.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Flavianoep]

There are many tiers to MS Office. There is the Home and Student, the Small Business, the Standard...
Does anyone know how LibreOffice compares to them?
IMHO, LibreOffice has more features than MS Office Home and Student, but cannot substitute the higher tiered editions of MS Office.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[jfengel]

Most of the people I encounter can barely use the basic functionality of Microsoft Office, which is something that LibreOffice has covered.

There is one crucial feature that isn't covered perfectly: absolute compatibility with MS Office. For a large number of office workers, Office is a collaboration tool. A document saved by one user and emailed to another, then edited and returned, needs to be able to preserve all of the formatting. Users care a *lot* about formatting, and if it gets messed up, they lose confidence in the software.

Office's formatting algorithms are abominable, and it's no surprise that LibreOffice can't mimic them perfectly. And users really, really need to apply a lot less formatting and focus instead on content.

Still... for a lot of offices, that's going to be the one unbreakable rule. MS Office is the de facto standard, and anything else needs to comply with that, even if the standard is for something user's shouldn't really want and which is poorly implemented (perhaps specifically to make it impossible to switch).

I'd love to see more offices switch to something like Google Docs or other systems with minimal formatting, so that they can stop tinkering with fonts and actually focus on the words. Sadly, users do love it.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[techno-vampire]

There is one crucial feature that isn't covered perfectly: absolute compatibility with MS Office.

And it never will be. Ignoring the people who won't try LiberOffice because it can't duplicate MS Office's behavior in some obscure corner-case, there's the fact that compatibility with MS Office is a constantly-moving goal post. Every version does things differently and has its own, proprietary format so that no matter what happens, LibreOffice will always be trying to catch up with the latest and "greatest" version of MS Office. Of course, so will everybody using an older version of Office, but all the MicroSofties are going to pay attention to is how FOSS can't keep up with whatever MS is currently pushing.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[RoccamOccam]

It would be beyond nice if LibreOffice could eventually be ported to Qt.

I assume that a large part of the codebase is still responsible for the platform-independent UI that stated with StarOffice. Removing that responsibility from the LibreOffice team might eventually payoff in improving the look-and-feel and freeing resources for feature enhancements.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[fahrbot-bot]

Maybe he means .... the Ribbon.

I just threw up in my mouth a little - thanks.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[BadDreamer]

There is one crucial feature that isn't covered perfectly: absolute compatibility with MS Office.

Not even MS Office has that, and that doesn't seem to matter. No, that is not where the problem lies. The compatibility only has to be good enough, and for pretty much everything it is.

Quite often it is even better than MS Office. I have used Libre Office to rescue documents which MS Office stopped loading because something broke in them. And that did not sway people enough to even make them try out Libre Office. Compatibility is a non-issue. It's all inertia.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[djbckr]

I'll go you one further - a lot of people just don't want change, period. My sister is one of those. I've tried to convince her to move to Mac because with what she does it would be an easier system to use. Yet, she "can't be bothered to learn something new". Even though she consistently is asking me why her computer doesn't work - because of some borked update or something. It's crazy. She's learned not to ask me any more :)

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[nine-times]

You may be right about this. It's been a while since I really looked into it.

However, I will note that it's not a simple issue. I remember being hopeful in evaluating Evolution years ago as a possible Outlook replacement, and it was a no-go. Speed and stability issues aside, there are a lot of little features that need to work well to displace Outlook. It's not just about being able to access calendars and contacts, but things like: How well does it support public folders? How well does it support shared calendars? How well does it support delegate access? How well does it support Exchange rules? What about Out-Of-Office assistants?

Those are just a couple off the top of my head, but there are a bunch of those kinds of things-- features you might not think of immediately, but that people rely on all the time. And not only would an Outlook replacement need to offer those features, but the UI for them would have to be at least as easy/non-annoying.

Is there a drop-in replacement these days? Something that I can use with Exchange instead of Outlook? Something that I can use with Outlook instead of Exchange?

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[steelfood]

By imperfectly mimicking the old Office GUI, the LibreOffice GUI (and UI in general) ended up falling into the uncanny valley. It sort of looks like MS Office, but because it differs in subtle ways both visually and behaviorially, it's off-putting.

If there's any OSS product that needs a UI redesign, it'd be LibreOffice. It'd be great if Mozilla could ship all their Firefox UI resources over, since it seems Firefox has so many choices they can't seem to decide which one to go with.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[aNonnyMouseCowered]

LibreOffice should have a beginner's interface as simple as GoogleDocs, with a button/icon for toggling "powah user" features.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[exomondo]

Reliance on MS office is the only thing that holds back many of my folks (familiy, friends) from a total FOSS conversion of their computing habits.

How many documents do they really have that don't open properly in something like Google Docs which is available on all platforms anyway?

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

...my kids' teachers will send out documents in Word or Powerpoint; often the clipart they love so dearly is oddly reformatted and covers text.

So, basically your kid's teachers are strutting their incompetence. If you sent your kids to secretary school they might have a point, but they went to school to prepare for college, didn't they?

I now have a laptop with Office loaded just for these types of cases.

I do too. It's covered with dust because the frequency I actually need it has dropped to nearly zero. These days, the onus is really on the author to send out documents that can be read, and requiring a Microsoft machine on the receiving side is increasingly risky. At least, the document better be sharable and viewable on Google drive.

PDF is a far better choice for informational documents. Nobody wants to sit through a bunch of animations to get the content they're looking for. These days, that kind of promotional wanking is basically relegated to the boardroom and trade shows.

For document generation, Libre Office is awesome and does everything I need.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

There is one crucial feature that isn't covered perfectly: absolute compatibility with MS Office.

Even MS Office isn't absolutely compatible with MS Office.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[budgenator]

I can't live without Excel's inability to avoid divide by 0 errors!; in calc a simple conditional detects a number is a zero and allows you to simply not divide by it; unlike Excel where you can test that a cell either has a number, but not that the number isn't zero.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

Creating a "perfect" alternative to MS Office is harder than just engineering an office suite. LibreOffice is great in many ways, but one of the things that keeps many people on MS Office is that they've built their workflows on Outlook...

Those guys are going to need to change because the world is moving on and their outmoded workflow will become an increasing liability for any organization that employs them. Particularly tech companies where frontline engineers tend to have a low tolerance for back office drones who can't fulfill their work roles efficiently because they can't be bothered to adapt.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[UnknownSoldier]

> But suggesting that aesthetics matter has always been blasphemy here at Slashdot.

Graphics (OpenGL/WebGL) and UI/UX guy here. That is NOT blasphemy, contrary to popular opinion. The balance of _form_ AND _function_ really is the sweet spot.

Sadly, most modern UI/UX guys are retarded. Whether they be at Apple, Microsoft, Facebook,Google, etc., they all think that form is the only thing that matters, functionality be damned. Want to tell the difference between a button and static text/image. Too bad! The will ram-rod a broken touch interface down everyone's throat whether they like it or not.

The weakness of open source is that no one takes UI seriously. You get powerful software with tons of options but you almost have to be a computer science major to even understand half of it.

The saddest part is that I agree with you 100%. And you'll probably be ignored, because most people don't understand or value the out-of-the-box experience. :-(

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

I remember being hopeful in evaluating Evolution years ago as a possible Outlook replacement, and it was a no-go. Speed and stability issues aside, there are a lot of little features that need to work well to displace Outlook. It's not just about being able to access calendars and contacts, but things like: How well does it support public folders? How well does it support shared calendars? How well does it support delegate access? How well does it support Exchange rules? What about Out-Of-Office assistants?

Those are just a couple off the top of my head, but there are a bunch of those kinds of things-- features you might not think of immediately, but that people rely on all the time. And not only would an Outlook replacement need to offer those features, but the UI for them would have to be at least as easy/non-annoying.

Is there a drop-in replacement these days? Something that I can use with Exchange instead of Outlook? Something that I can use with Outlook instead of Exchange?

Thunderbird is your best bet. With plugins, Exchange calendar protocols seem to work as expected, though I haven't really tried every feature, nor do I want to. These days, it seems like startups are going with Google Office a lot more than Microsoft's expensive, high maintenance solutions. The wind is definitely shifting, as can be seen in Microsoft's division revenues.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

I'm using software that could easily replace both Outlook and Exchange right now. Fortunately, it's made by a company that is very good at engineering but terrible at PR and marketing, so Microsoft is safe.

Give us a hint?

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

There's always something that doesn't work on my computers. The last time I tried to install it, it was the video drivers that didn't work. They worked well enough to run the desktop, but as soon as I tried to play a game (or even test with GLXgears) the performance was abysmal.

Meaning that you were running software OpenGL, it just means that your installation is incomplete. Usually, the installer will autosense your video hardware and install the correct driver, but if it doesn't then it is usually easy to put things right. Start with:

      glxinfo | grep "direct rendering:"

Probably you will see "direct rendering: No". You are now probably one package install away from fixing it.

The last large number of times I've installed Linux it came up with functional hardware 3D out of the box. Verified on hardware from all the major manufacturers. I usually use Ubuntu's install from USB key.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[K. S. Kyosuke]

The catch: he works in said company, in PR and marketing. So he can't tell you.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

In short, you want somebody to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Nobody has time for that. Too bad Larry and his boys mortally wounded OpenOffice, but they did. Just let it die in peace.

Anyway, GPL is a lot better licence for this, it means there won't be a bunch of proprietary forks. And OpenOffice development does continue, at a very slow pace, which occasionally feeds bug fixes or even features into LibreOffice, so it is actually doing something useful.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[exomondo]

It's all inertia.

And you need something disruptive to change that, not something that's pretty much the same but cheaper. Google is trying (and seems to be doing fairly well) with their Google Docs offering because not only is it a capable office suite but it's platform-agnostic (web-based, even MS Office has a web-based version), has native applications for all the major mobile platforms (if you prefer that) and it is well-integrated with all their other services. But LibreOffice doesn't really have a disruptive feature, it's just a cheaper version of MS Office.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

Oh I get it, that would imply he's terrible at PR and marketing.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

In the real world I'll just use the right tool for the job.

In school, you carry your tools between your ears, you didn't go there to learn powerpointing. I hope.

Well, I could be wrong about you, but my child certainly don't go to school to learn powerpointing, and if I found that being taught instead of proper academics I'd move my child to a different school the next day.

BTW, my child's school standardized on Linux, both the back office and teaching side. Even the security system. There great education software out there, and school administration software for Linux. See, free is compelling for educators these days, and students get a great chance to learn high value skills like programming and network adminisration (pen testing is particularly popular...)

From where I sit, Linux looks like the right tool for education, so I agree with you. Use the right tool for the job, and bin that expensive, proprietary, virus-magnet Microsoft crap.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[budgenator]

I nominate you to teach M$ Word users how to give their documents a title in properties so every freaking pdf you see on the internet isn't titled "Microsoft Word Document".

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[protektor]

I hate to break it to you but file compatibility is a garbage reason to continue to use Office. I have worked with many companies in my time and Office files are not even compatible with themselves. I can't tell you how many times I have heard people ask what version of Office are you running so I can try and save it in an Office format that will work for you. Office is barely compatible with itself over time.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[budgenator]

There is one crucial feature that isn't covered perfectly: absolute compatibility with MS Office. For a large number of office workers, Office is a collaboration tool.

Panty-waistes, Real Men use EMACS, Subversion and LaTeX.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Anonymous Coward]

No. The compatibility is *not* "good enough" for "pretty much everything". I can (and do) see breakages in just about every document I ever try to convert.

For instance, look at the indentation of bullet point items. This isn't hard, the rule is perfectly simple. Yet to this day, LibreOffice can't correctly convert from a document saved in MS Word.

Or headers and footers. The spacing is screwed up, and sometimes the fonts change for no reason. The same thing sometimes happens with styles. Unless you stick with the default fonts, it seems LibreOffice just doesn't care.

These are not obscure, edge-case, one-in-a-million features. I use them in pretty much every document I produce, and so do lots of other people I know.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Oligonicella]

I've had .doc documents that didn't open on any of seven word processors, two of which were M$. What the hell do you do then?

The tool for the job is the document and its format. The .doc files are not a good tool. And if you're outputting a recent level, you're basically insisting others purchase a(nother) expensive word processor for your casual need.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Ol Olsoc]

The FOSS movement should go all-in with LibreOffice in an effort to provide a perfect alternative to MS office.

Define perfect?

This isn't a diss on Libre office, I use it on my Macs, my PCs and my Linux machines because it is the only Office suite that is compatible across platforms.

Microsoft Office isn't compatible between PC's and Macs, (a fatal flaw in my book) the interface blows weasel balls, and Microsoft Office suffers from feature bloat in the first place. a lot of that crap I don't want at all.

Last think I want is for Apache office to be turned into na MS Office like product.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

In school, you carry your tools between your ears, you didn't go there to learn powerpointing. I hope.

No but as was said earlier, if I need powerpoint for something I will use it. I am not going to whine about how powerpoint isnt my moral choice.

Those are your words, and frankly they just make you sound stupid (but what can we expect from an AC troll...)

Why are you pretending Linux or "free" is necessary for this? I sure hope you arent going to school to learn Linux.

Which is more likely to get you into a good school? A) Knowledge of Linux internals B) Powerpoint skillz?

From your good school, you get a good position, a good life and respect. From the crap community college you got into with your powerpoint and Word(tm) skillz you take your chances with the rest of the back-biting, entitled assholes. Some of you will slime your way to a decent income, but you'll play long odds. The rest of you will end up flipping burgers feeling sorry for yourselves.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Ol Olsoc]

It is a pretty safe bet that your family and friends are just using Microsoft Office as an excuse to avoid talking about Linux.

That wouldn't make a lot of sense, since my family and friends don't know what Linux is.

I think you stumbled on the reason, my friend. It's inertia on their part.

My famliy and friends moved away fom Microsoft Office when I told them I'd not support it any more. Seems that free support was more important than that inertia.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

What's in it for me, for teaching them to take their clown shoes off?

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

Those are your words, and frankly they just make you sound stupid

Inferred from your assertion that teachers who send out powerpoint or word documents are "incompetent".

No such logical inference is possible from my words, only rhetorical twisting by a dimwitted bottomfeeder such as you.

If a teacher sends you a powerpoint presentation and you cant deal with it then it is you who is incompetent.

You yourself might draw that conclusion, but you are an anonymous asshole so does anybody care. On the contrary, my style at that age would have me going back to the teacher and showing them how to send out educational materials properly in a form that saves time and money for everybody. Yes I did that kind of thing, and yes I ended up with those teachers as friends.

but what can we expect from an AC troll...

If you actually believed I were a troll you wouldnt be replying so dont lie.

I believe that you are a troll and a self-important ass with a greatly exaggerated opinion of their debating skills and will continue to believe that until you prove otherwise, perhaps by posting under a registered ID or posting some immortal prose that doesn't smell like it came out of your ass.

Which is more likely to get you into a good school? A) Knowledge of Linux internals B) Powerpoint skillz?

It is not a question of one or the other.

Yes it is. I asked that question and the question is unambiguous. Sheesh. If you fancy yourself a skilled debater at least try to stick to basic principles of logic.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[thisisauniqueid]

So what those people are probably saying amounts to: they are comfortable with what they have and don't want to learn something new...

...except that when Microsoft occasionally *forces* people to learn something new (e.g. when they released the ribbon UI for Office, or the crazy Metro UI for Windows), people swallow that pill anyway because they have to. What it really comes down to is that most people prefer living their lives in a catatonic/comatose state.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[KGIII]

You do realize that, for most of us at least, you are probably not the target user. Right? I generally see only Ubuntu priding itself on being as easy to use as Windows. Hell, I use LinuxMint and that's straight up Linux for Retards but they do not seem to stress that point (would have saved me some time). You will know if you're the target user. You probably aren't.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Barsteward]

Perfect? You mean complete with security holes as well?

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[rastos1]

Um, are you saying that the teacher handing out an assignment "to create a PowerPoint presentation" is a failure of FOSS? The failure of FOSS might be not being able to provide the tons of cliparts. We can dispute about failure of FOSS to handle formatting of document with clipart. But that is not what the GPP was talking about. Presentation as assignment - I can live with that. If the school is preparing future MBAs. God bless them. PowerPoint presentation as assignment is failure of the education system - e.g. the world is fucked up.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Tough Love]

In the real world I'll just use the right tool for the job.

In school, you carry your tools between your ears, you didn't go there to learn powerpointing. I hope.

Well, I could be wrong about you, but my child certainly don't go to school to learn powerpointing, and if I found that being taught instead of proper academics I'd move my child to a different school the next day.

BTW, my child's school standardized on Linux, both the back office and teaching side. Even the security system. There great education software out there, and school administration software for Linux. See, free is compelling for educators these days, and students get a great chance to learn high value skills like programming and network adminisration (pen testing is particularly popular...)

From where I sit, Linux looks like the right tool for education, so I agree with you. Use the right tool for the job, and bin that expensive, proprietary, virus-magnet Microsoft crap.

Oh lookie, my post attracted the attention of a M$ astroturder with mod points.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[LegionX]

At least it didn't mimic Microsoft Works!

Have anyone created a mockup or defined such a redesign? I for one have a hard time imagining it being much different.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[TheRaven64]

LibreOffice has a less permissive license than OpenOffice, so can't be folded back in. LibreOffice's origins are Novell's Go-OO project, which included stuff that they refused to license under the upstream license and so could not be contributed back and stuff covered by the MS-Novell patent license that upstream wouldn't accept because it wasn't clear that the patent license applied to anyone distributing derived works.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[hey!]

One simple and useful missing feature that lots of people use is Word's outline view, which has been a perennial feature request in OpenOffice for over a decade now. And every year it's always dismissed with some variation of "you can accomplish the same thing with the Navigator" -- which is true, but it shows a profound misunderstanding of user interfaces. Doing it that way doesn't feel the same, and feeling is really important.

An external outliner doesn't provide the same direct manipulation experience an internal outliner; in an internal outline (aka an "outline view") the user manipulates the document directly; with Navigator he manipulates the document indirectly, through a simulacrum in a separate window. This not only works poorly on a smaller screen, it just feels different -- like having to eat a bowl of nuts with chopsticks instead of your fingers.

Microsoft did something analogous with its early touch interfaces. Rather than creating the illusion of manipulating the document directly with your fingers, you manipulated a virtual mouse onscreen using your finger. On paper there's a lot of convincing sounding reasons for why this would be a good approach. It makes things easier for developers who already have a desktop app, because that app will work on the touchscreen without modification. And users are used to manipulating documents and apps through the mouse pointer... except no matter how much you practice, it never feels as natural as manipulating the document directly. In fact operating a virtual mouse with your finger on the screen feels *less* intuitive than using an actual mouse. I think it's an uncanny valley type effect. The continual sense of dealing with an extraneous piece of UI mechanics saps the flow out of your work.

The Navigator is not that bad, but its shortcomings to someone used to using an internal outliner are similar. It does get the job done, but it feels awkward when you're familiar with a superior UI for those tasks.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Half-pint HAL]

There is one crucial feature that isn't covered perfectly: absolute compatibility with MS Office. For a large number of office workers, Office is a collaboration tool. A document saved by one user and emailed to another, then edited and returned, needs to be able to preserve all of the formatting. Users care a *lot* about formatting, and if it gets messed up, they lose confidence in the software.

Office's formatting algorithms are abominable, and it's no surprise that LibreOffice can't mimic them perfectly. And users really, really need to apply a lot less formatting and focus instead on content.

This is why Microsoft Office is the problem and LibreOffice is not the solution. Word's "format as you go along" approach is an inefficient workflow, but the software actively encourages people to work that way. LibreOffice has a much better model for handling content and formatting at the file level, but the UI still presents an MS Office workflow. If there was an alternative UI that made content+semantic markup smooth and easy with formatting by specifying tag meaning done later, there would be something to sell to businesses: improved worker productivity.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[ThePhilips]

Sadly, most modern UI/UX guys are retarded. Whether they be at Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, etc., they all think that form is the only thing that matters, functionality be damned.

They are not retarded.

They simply have no f***ing idea what UI and UX are.

But that shit isn't new. The GUI design of the past always veered in the direction: design is just a beautiful static picture. The difference is that back then computers had no power or resources to make the UIs to look like that. But today they do.

Finally, the typical IQ of the marketing department and the responsible for the buying decisions seals the deal: choosing between quirky UI which customer needs and beautiful design which looks great on the front page of the product brochure has never being a dilemma.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[arglebargle_xiv]

Maybe he means .... the Ribbon.

It installs the LibreOffice on its laptop or it gets the Ribbon again.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[CastrTroy]

I tried to find a driver, but couldn't find one that worked well. It was some mobile AMD video chip. Tried the open source drivers as well as the closed ones, and nothing seemed to work. Seems I got some weird model that nobody wanted to support in Linux.

Like I said, Linux can work fine if you happen to have the right hardware, or research the hardware before you buy it, but in my experience, if you just pick a random desktop or laptop you got at the local Best Buy (which is how many people obtain computers) there will be something that just won't work.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[damaki]

It should, but how? Do you actually know that several MS Office version are incompatible with each other? Sure, you can import your text but the formatting is off. What people are asking for is something that even Microsoft was never able to provide.
I got an example to illustrate that, when I did IT support in a small hospital. A secretary called me because her word documents looked different on her brand new computer, on Word 2000. It was, sure. She indented everything with the spacebar, but even if she had used proper Office 2000 formatting (tabs and stuff), it would not have looked the same; It never does. In the end, she had to repair the indentation from scratch on every single template she created.

What people want is MS Office, which LibreOffice will never be. Office is Office, just like Windows is Windows. If you want to do regular business things, it's MS Excel and MS Word on MS Windows. Habits die hard.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[nine-times]

Particularly tech companies where frontline engineers tend to have a low tolerance for back office drones

There are a couple businesses left that aren't tech companies. Many of them survive quite a long time sticking with outmoded workflows.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Rutulian]

There is perfect and then there is perfect. It is true, Microsoft Office compatibility is the last major remaining issue that most of the people I talk to care about. They will even use LibreOffice on Windows, they love the idea of LibreOffice, but Microsoft Office file formats are the currency of document exchange among many academics. It is usually not things like font substitution that matter to them, though. It is tables, charts, floating figures, line art, 3D arrows, OLE objects, etc. If the margins are bit off when you send a document to somebody, no big deal, but if the table with the latest data in a progress report to the NIH doesn't show up or gets mangled, that screws the pooch. LibreOffice is really close, but it is that last 1-2% that is really critical for many people to switch. OOXML has made this process a lot easier, but it is still a beast of a file format.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Rutulian]

No, but it is in the areas that matter to most people. The thing is, people (at least the people I know) don't spend a lot of time working on older documents. They are working on new documents. And when they upgrade their Office version, usually everybody is upgrading their Office version, so Office 2003 vs. Office 2013 incompatibilities don't matter to very many people. But there is no LibreOffice version that will import a complex Word document of any version without some major flaws (minor flaws are usually ok). Floating figures that move around or disappear, captions that disappear, tables that get mangled, line art that doesn't render or renders incorrectly.... If you are writing a simple office memo, LibreOffice works perfectly fine, but many people use it to do complex formatting, and for those people the incompatibilities are a big problem.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[timftbf]

If there was an alternative UI that made content+semantic markup smooth and easy with formatting by specifying tag meaning done later, there would be something to sell to businesses: improved worker productivity.

Except that any productivity gains for this quarter would be more than offset by the need to retrain people to work in this way - and as we know, nothing exists in business any more beyond this quarter.

Even leaving short-term financial thinking aside, businesses will resist training people to use a word processor, because "everyone can use Word", and people will resist the training if its given, because the majority don't want to think about document structure or semantics, they just want to spew their brain to the page and make it look "pretty".

The number of people for whom inserting page break rather than pressing return until the cursor is on the next page falls into "power user" territory is frankly terrifying.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[kbrannen]

It is a pretty safe bet that your family and friends are just using Microsoft Office as an excuse to avoid talking about Linux. ... So what those people are probably saying amounts to: they are comfortable with what they have and don't want to learn something new (may that be Linux or LibreOffice).

Sigh, that may be true for a few people, but my guess is that number is pretty small. I use Linux heavily, but if I could have 1 piece of software ported to Linux it would be MS-Office. There is no equivalent to OneNote in Linux-land. Basket Notepads tries; I even tried to help it along, but gave up in the end as it just wasn't going to meet my needs as I evaluated it more. To Evernote users, sorry, it doesn't meet my needs either.

Also, the UI of LOffice is pretty clunky. I find it very slow to use because I have to stop and search for features/commands that I know are there but can't easily find. It's rendering is also only about 95% accurate, leaving artifacts and weird visual stuff on my screen (like it showing me where the margins are but text is shown out of bounds). LOffice is a good attempt and I wish it well because I'd like to see it catch on for more mainstream usage, but it's not there yet. But for a quick view of a MS-Word doc on Linux, it works well enough.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[david_thornley]

Also, you need to remember that businesses usually don't care about Free vs. proprietary, and don't care much about how much Microsoft Office costs. They're used to paying for software (having a naive pointy-haired faith that people stand behind what they sell in software). They don't see any upside to shift to F/OSS except not paying the license fees, and a switch to F/OSS is likely to cost money and if it turns out to be inadequate the cost can be much more.

Remember, if you buy Microsoft and it turns out bad, you as a manager did a responsible thing that didn't work out. If you bring in F/OSS and it turns out bad, you as a manager did something stupid. (This is not true in all organizations, but enough.)

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[jfengel]

Yeah, I don't know why I picked fonts as the example. It's the layout that's the real problem. I hadn't even though about graphics, but they're also a nightmare.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[jfengel]

I think users really like to have the formats applied first, since a second formatting pass feels tedious.

I believe it wouldn't be unreasonable to provide a template and then lock off all other formatting tools from users at edit-time. Here are all the paragraph styles you get; here are the headers and footers. You can make tables, but all you get to define are rows and columns and maybe headers.

That wouldn't fix everything, but at the very least discouraging users from fiddling with the format instead of working would make for more attractive documents that would, coincidentally, be easier to transfer to other editors.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[jfengel]

LaTeX? Wuss. Real men use TROFF, and only because they're too busy to write the Postscript by hand.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[tibit]

A Qt port would be nice, but it would need to be a port to Qt Quick, not to widgets - since that's where all the development is being focused on, and that's where the rendering performance gains are made with every other release. It's not a big deal, but widgets are showing their age and Qt Quick is much nicer to deal with, and the performance boost is wonderful. Internally, the architecture of the multitude of dialogs needs to be split between a model and a view - I don't know to what extent that is the case right now, but it'd be a good first step.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[jfengel]

It sure doesn't help that floating figures and captions are handled variably even within a single editing session of MS Word. It's no surprise to me that LibreOffice screws it up. After all these years of work Office still doesn't seem to grasp the fundamental notions of what a document is and how it works. They seem to view formatting as a kind of paste-up thing, rather than giving users a set of conventions.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[tibit]

The internal architecture of LibreOffice's rendering was up to this point broken beyond belief. They had it based on refresh timers and other such crazy stupidity, it really boggled my mind when I looked at it a few years ago and only now they are up to fixing that (I don't recall if 5.0 has it fully fixed or not). That's why you have artifacts and the persisting feeling of there being an everpresent UI lag: because, at least prior to 5.0, there was, and it was pretty damn bad and hard to work around if you were to start hacking on the code. The underlying self-made UI framework they use is only a bit better than MFC, and just about as old, and most definitely is a holdover from the StarDivision. I'd have loved a port to something more modern, like Qt Quick. It'd make working on the code way simpler, and the performance would be like night and day compared to what's there.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[tibit]

Why are you making shit up?

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[hey!]

Well, I'm not holding my breath; it's been over ten years now.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[Rolgar]

I especially like how LibreOffice handles some things better than MS office, but then I am a power user. (These are issues in Excel 2010)

Specifically, one thing I can think of off the top of my head, the Control + End key combo takes you to the cell that intersects the last row and column of the sheet in both Excel and Calc (This is highly efficient way of highlighting from a specific point to the end of the worksheet). In Calc, it takes you to the intersection of the current last row and cell. If you have thousands of rows of data, and then delete some, it will take you to the last row of the current data. But in Excel, it takes you to the intersection of the last row and column ever used in the sheet since it was created. If you delete some data, save, close and reopen the sheet, and press the Control + End, Excel will take you to the last row that ever had data even if the sheet is now thousands of rows shorter.

It drives me nuts because I have business users who use a template sheet to build data they want entered into our Oracle system. Even though they'll only have a few hundred rows of data, when select cell A2, then hit Control + End, I often end up thousands of rows away from where the data ends. Sure, I only have to hold Control+shift+up to get back to the current last row, but it's still the same lack of polish in Excel that most users think Calc has.

Another issue in Excel, If I update the format for a range of cells, from Scientific Notation to Text, because I pasted some shipping track numbers into a sheet and want it to show the complete number, it doesn't redisplay after changing the format from General to Text. You have to F2 followed by Enter for EVERY CELL to force Excel to show the correct formatting. That, or paste the values in then use the import wizard to paste in the text values. Or Paste, Set the format, then paste again. But for a low tech user, it just looks bad.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[arctother]

I tried LibreOffice briefly when it first came out. I found it hard to use and annoying. I asked how to change something and was told that I should change instead. Switched to Apache OpenOffice as soon as that came out and have been much happier ever since. So, no, please don't let the FOSS movement go "all-in" behind Libre or any other specific suite. Variety of choice is a lot of the whole point as far as I see it.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[jez9999]

It's true enough, but honestly, it needs to be prettier. I know it's superficial and stupid

It sure it. I've got no problem with the UI. I *want* it to look like the old MS Office; I hate the new ribbon layout.

What I wish they do is fix a few more fundamental bugs like this one I found when trying to create a macro that inserted fields: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86199&redirected_from=fdo

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[nobodie]

I work in an environment (and have for many years, in many places in the world, doing many different jobs in a similar environment) where I have used Libre and Open office (and even tried Symphony for a short time). I have been able to consistenly provide perfect results with everything I do, whether spreadsheets, presentations or documents. There has never been a question or a problem. In fact, I have been able to often provide better and more consistent results than my colleagues can with MS Office.

EG: I work in an office right now where no one seems to be able to find or use the numbering function for numbered lists. MS Office has apparently hidden it in the ribbon and, perhaps because they don't use it often or at all, it is relegated to the ribbon dungeon.

Now, in none of the places I have worked has anyone shown me a function that MS Office has that Libre/Open office doesn't have THAT THEY USE. Obviously it is the use that is important. Once someone told me that they needed a particular spreadsheet function that LO/OO didn't have, but it seemed to me to be a naming difference rather than a function difference.

Now, this is not to say that there are not tons of edge cases that MS Office meets that LO/OO don't. But I wouldn't know because they don't affect 99% of users.

OK, everybody on the same page with me? So why do people insist that they must have the difficulty and complexity that is modern MS Office?
1) It is all that has been sold/given to them.
2) It must be better since it costs money. (yes, I and other FOSSarians know that this is meaningless, but most people live in a world where cheap or free means trashy and broken. I maintain that many people in this forum say these things about FOSS because they expect it to be trashy and broken , thereby creating an experience of the same. The amount of time I have watched colleagues fight, bitch, moan and struggle with the perfection that everyone agrees is MS Office would make me argue against its wonderfulness.
3) They once had something that they needed to do with something and they knew how to do it with MS Office but couldn't figure out how to do it in another (fill in LO/OO here even though it wasn't) suite.
4) They had a colleague who needed to handle an edge case that LO/OO really doesn't do and therefore they are useless for everyone. All it takes is one person in an office who has always used a particular function to create this situation.

I have seen all these situations in my various workplaces. I always use LO or OO and have never been restrained in what I do, have never been slowed down by my choice (in fact I usually finish first, but that might just be a matter of focus, food and sleep). I am legion, or would be if people just used simple solutions rather than stupidly complex solutions. (Notice that people are really much happier using a stupidly simple photo editor that only has 4 or 5 functions than using photoshop.) It is ease of use, which I think once people get it than they will stay with it, I have.

Re:SubjectsInCommentsAreStupid

[nobodie]

pardon my final sentence with a mistake in than>>then and the compklete failure of syntax. It should be saying:
"Once people understand that LO/OO provide ease of use for everything they do, then they too will want to use it."
That "I have" was egregious.
Apologies, friends

Wuh?

[lisaparratt]

"Sure, LibreOffice does not provide the same level of features and finesse Microsoft's suite may boast"

But MS Office hasn't really had any substantial functionality changes since 1999, only frivolous window dressing. How the hell has LibreOffice not caught up in the intervening *15* years?!

Re:Wuh?

[lesincompetent]

MS Excel...

Re:Wuh?

[Anonymous Coward]

>We'll see if the situation has improved.

Spoiler alert: it hasn't

Re:Wuh?

[FranTaylor]

But of course Office has had functionality updates in that time. LibreOffice has passed where Office was 15 years ago - and still isn't a match for Office.

Can you name me an essential feature in Office that was not present in word star on apple II?

Re:Wuh?

[TheRaven64]

There are no essential features in any word processor that aren't covered by a linotype machine. That doesn't mean that you'd expect people to be equally productive with both.

Re:Wuh?

[hey!]

There are no essential features in any word processor that aren't covered by a linotype machine. That doesn't mean that you'd expect people to be equally productive with both.

I think you're missing something important here. It's not just about doing the old things more efficiently -- in this case preparing a high quality hard copy document. Sometimes it's doing things you never thought of doing, e.g. "thinking out loud" at your keyboard; or group editing a document with people who are on the other side of the country from you. Once you can do those things, they become "essential" -- not to typesetting hard copy, but to a new standard of "essential" consisting of things you'd never imagined being able to do.

I've been in this business for a long, long time, from before the time of the personal computer. Many times I've had to convince people they "needed" things they've gotten along fine with all their lives, such as email (isn't it more *complicated* to send letters using computers?) to business Internet connections (the killer argument: all the cool businesses are starting to do this). One thing I've learned is that people are very bad at imagining doing things differently; that's why you need to get prototypes in their hands as soon as possible.

The most successful technology introductions are ones that transform work so it becomes unrecognizable. I can't count the number of times clients have handed me huge, imposing looking stacks of "reports" a system "has to" generate, where almost none of those reports will be needed again once the new system is working. What clients imagine doing is pushing more of the same kinds of paper, faster; not eliminating the need for those papers and redistributing that labor to things that matter more.

Of course there's a flip side to this, which is that developers are constantly pushing new features on users that users don't want and won't ever be happy about using. Sometimes as a developer your brainstorms are just baloney. But you do have to think beyond doing the same old thing more efficiently.

Re:Wuh?

[david_thornley]

Technically, there are no essential features in Office, since I can always write a C++ program to do what I want. Practically, I'd suggest Excel probably does some things much better than WordStar did.

False comparison

[argStyopa]

I know he's trying to be charitable, but there's no need.

"Sure, LibreOffice does not provide the same level of features and finesse Microsoft's suite may boast..."
Who cares? My guess is that most users don't use at least 90% of the "features" in MS Office; if we're talking only about features that Office has an LO doesn't, I'd lift that to 99%.

LibreOffice is terrific, and I wish I could convince my company to switch.

Re:False comparison

[FranTaylor]

most people have at least one show stopping feature that Libre Office lacks

Huh? "most people" do normal straightforward word processing, which has been a "solved problem" since the apple II. What are these fancy features needed today that were not present in 1980s word processing systems?

Re:False comparison

[Anonymous Coward]

One problem is that those, such as myself, who do use at least a few of the 90% of the "little used" features in MS Office then send thier documents to many others who have no idea that these "unneeded" features are being used. The fact a user doesn't know they are using a feature doesn't mean they are not using that feature.

In a home or very small office environment this is, of course, less likely. However, many of these people seem to find both LibreOffice and MS Office mindnumbingly complicated.

One area that badlly cripples LibreOffice adoption is, ironically, its horrible documentation (i.e. "help"). I regularly use an ancient version of office (no need to give MS more money than needed) that I acquired about 15 years ago and it's "help" documentation is head and shoulders above that of the latest version of LibreOffice. This is true for both "power users" and "casual users" needs.

Re:False comparison

[FranTaylor]

it was trying to catch up to functionality of a really old Microsoft Office

Microsoft was learning where its customers wanted to use its software tomorrow.

WTF is this bizarre "magic" that microsoft puts in their software that nobody else does? WTF do you actually need in a word processor that wasn't there in 1988?

Re:False comparison

[FranTaylor]

then send thier documents to many others who have no idea that these "unneeded" features are being used.

billy discovers new features in the word processor and wonders why nobody else uses them, doesn't occur to him that they are not really needed

Re:False comparison

[FranTaylor]

Your post is why open software always fails to gain the lead,

holy cow batman, people are changing the world by posting on slashdot

Re:False comparison

[0123456]

That's presumably why Microsoft added the evil Ribbon, so Word users would have no idea how to find the features they use in a processor with a saner interface.

Then again, those users probably have no idea how to find the features they use in the Ribbon, either.

Re: False comparison

[serbanp]

He, he, he, tgif was way better than xfig. And both were running circles around the steamy POS named Visio. Even after 16 years since acquiring it, Microsoft still can't make a decent vector graphics program, this Visio thing continues to be a joke.

Re:False comparison

[UnknownSoldier]

The funny thing about the OSX version is that we get _both_ the menu AND ribbon. Some tasks are easier with the ribbon, others with the menu.

Trying to dictate how users should use the software is just plain ignorance and arrogance but Microsoft has never understand good UI. They always seem to be copying Apple, for better or for worse.

Re: False comparison

[Tough Love]

You can use Inkscape to create shapes for Dia, a fairly decent solution for that type of thing. BTW, Inkscape is beyond awesome.

Re:False comparison

[Fencepost]

No, Microsoft added the Ribbon because product design internally is way way ahead of what you typically see released. I suspect that some of the folks working on the Ribbon design were looking ahead and expecting touchscreen interfaces at some point, though they may have expected them to be more stylus-driven instead of fingers.

Re:False comparison

[bigfinger76]

Seems like a bad idea to shoehorn features into a product whose users lack the technology to utilize said features.

Re: False comparison

[LegionX]

But Dia certainly isn't.

I haven't used it recently, but the last time i did, switching from inches to millimeters were an afterthought that made the program crash.

Re:False comparison

[iampiti]

You're very unfair to Microsoft: They've been first at trying to fuse a mobile touch-first OS with a desktop one, creating the abominations that are Windows 8 and 10.
Apple still hasn't gotten around to do that.

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[Kobun]

Utterly wrong. Where do you want me to start?

1. Licensing dispute
2. Reason for the fork
3. Rose from the ashes
4. Contention that Apache OpenOffice would exist if not for Libreoffice.

Happy to provide links for anything you're interested in actually discussing. Let me know.

Uh, what?

[Zontar The Mindless]

To be fair, I was unaware of much of the internal considerations going on at Sun, so their reluctance to engage may have also been a result of other forces, such as external management groups or constrained engineering resources.

I can't help but wonder how this guy managed to miss the thousands of layoffs from Sun that were happening at that time--one week, it was 6,000, the next it was 8,000. The company was losing money hand over fist, and projects were being shut down right and left. This was all in the press, too. So you'd think this guy could have figured out that we had slightly greater concerns right then than a freebie that was costing us rather than making us money to develop.

(Yes, I got to watch Sun implode, from the inside. Not pretty.)

Re:Uh, what?

[drinkypoo]

So you'd think this guy could have figured out that we had slightly greater concerns right then than a freebie that was costing us rather than making us money to develop.

Yeah, you were busy buying companies and firing all the people who knew anything, that can really take a lot out of a company. Like all the money.

Re:Uh, what?

[Zontar The Mindless]

True enough. Fortunately they didn't do that with my employer when they were acquired. (They did give the founder enough money to Go Away, which was actually probably a good thing. But that's another story. Maybe I'll write a book about it after I retire and don't have to worry about getting fired/blacklisted.)

It also didn't help that Sun were encouraging (and *paying*) their salespeople to make deals that they thought made for good PR, whether or not they actually brought in any revenue. As a result, salespeople quit actually selling anything--quelle surprise!

(BTW, I'm a writer, editor, and sometime coder, and not management in any sense of the word. But I shared office space with a VP for a while during those times, so I got to be a bit of a fly on the wall when lots of very interesting things were happening.)

My parents and software.

[jitterman]

My Pops just three evenings ago asked me which version of office to get with the new machine he is going to build. I responded "LibreOffice" and showed him why. He and Mom are trying it out now (she's a teacher, so her choice will decide), and so far seems they are happy with it.

Re:My parents and software.

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool story bro.

Re:My parents and software.

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming they are on Windows then MS Office 365 Home was what you likely should have recommended. $99 per year, up to 5 PCs and 5 phone/tablets and up to 5 users each of whom get a TB of space on OneDrive. Then you don't have to fiddle around with backup drives and taking them offsite or getting carbonite subscriptions for each of them, etc. Show them how to put their data into the OneDrive folder and let it sync and you are done. Next time they want to rebuild a machine or the drive crashes all their data comes back magically.

Re:My parents and software.

[JonnyCalcutta]

In that case just go with Google and Libreoffice. Google Docs is more than good enough for the basics, writing, etc (and you don't have to bother saving and syncing); LibreOffice for anything more advanced and local sync via google drive. And the decider is, its free.

Re:My parents and software.

[Tough Love]

And spend the savings on massively more memory, or some creature comforts like a UPS or big SSD or monster display.

What I don't understand...

[camperdave]

What I don't understand is why Libre Office never put together a clone of OneNote. It's the one piece of software that's anchoring me to Windows.

Re:What I don't understand...

[snadrus]

Because it's a copycat of many other things already out there:
- Evernote: Notes everywhere
- Tomboy Notes: Save-on-Keypress desktop sticky notes. Public & Private host backup possible (I use this now, for reminders)
- GNote: Linux-only lightweight Tomboy Notes
- Google Keep: My preferred Android + Browser (Linux) note taker (I use this now to note what I should research later)
- Calendars of all kinds: Want to remember to do something at some time? Just put it at some free time in your calendar!

Re:What I don't understand...

[zenbi]

There are plenty of note taking applications available and most of them are not tied to Windows.

Re:What I don't understand...

[goarilla]

Since you seem to be a note guru, what distinguishes a note application from a simple text editor ?

Re:What I don't understand...

[camperdave]

Evernote is cloud based. OneNote is local.

Re:What I don't understand...

[camperdave]

I've tried them all. None of those comes close to what OneNote can do.

Re:What I don't understand...

[camperdave]

Most of the ones not tied to windows are tied to the web. That's a deal breaker as well.

Re:What I don't understand...

[kbrannen]

Evernote is cloud based. OneNote is local.

Err, no. OneNote can be either local and/or cloud based, your choice from version 2010 forward. I presently use it in both ways at the moment in that some notebooks are local only (things with personal data), some notebooks are in the cloud (things I want everywhere easily and I don't care if anyone else hacked in and saw it).

Re:What I don't understand...

[kbrannen]

And if you objectively compare them to the features that OneNote provides, they all come up short. At least that was true for me with the features I was after, and I tried a lot of them. I don't care for MS and their products as a whole, but they did a great job creating OneNote. It's at the perfect place for getting the job done and easy to use. If MS would port MS-Office (mainly for OneNote), I could give up MS-Windows and anything else that I just had to have would probably work under Wine. Heck, I'd give up all of my MS-Windows only games to get a Linux version of OneNote!

Re:What I don't understand...

[camperdave]

I was thinking the other day that the OneNote user interface would make for an excellent OS interface. Imagine, a tab for games, a tab for applications, a tab for utilities, etc.

The wet blanket says ..

[udippel]

No, I am not that convinced. Alas. Look at some basic bug reports, and how bugs reports are treated, and you'll find some abhorrent situations. Where it could shine, it didn't. Like surpassing MS Office.

First item: the silly image formats supported by MS Offce (only), to create a market for real formats, like SVG, EPS. LibreOffice simply dropped support, had a good number of bug reports some two years ago, and still pending.

It did much better than OpenOffice in colourful gadgets and widgets to please the eye of the casual user, yes, but did not focus on real technical improvements.

Equation editor. It is just okay, but not beyond. Still the same as OpenOffice. Does it import MS formulas? Does it offer a real WYSIWYG, or does one have to continuously click forth and back? The latter.

Did I write a number of bug reports to help out? Yes, I did. What I got was UNCO, or outright rejection, like 'try the most recent version, we think it has been solved'. How to try the most recent version if it isn't in the pools of my distro? And worse: When I tried, it hadn't.

All this makes me sad, because contrary to some other posters, I feel very confidently that LibreOffice is more consistent, better to handle, and overall the better alternative already today! And I can speak from some experience, since I was responsible for the layout of two books that you can buy on Amazon, and it did a great job. Also better than MS Office which tends to break any page layout with automatic page breaks of a floating text wherever it likes, depending on the version (2003, 2007), the underlying Windows version, and the mood of the day. Yes, with the same dictionary and same hyphenation. The author was at the end of her wits when MS Office had some 30+ pages with this, while in *Office all 511 pages were identical for author, and the two proof readers.

Re:The wet blanket says ..

[Tough Love]

Did I write a number of bug reports to help out? Yes, I did. What I got was UNCO, or outright rejection, like 'try the most recent version, we think it has been solved'. How to try the most recent version if it isn't in the pools of my distro? And worse: When I tried, it hadn't.

Don't be discouraged, you efforts are indeed appreciated, even if the response may seem lacking or perfunctory. You may have just run up against an overworked volunteer having a bad hair day. Just tag onto your bug report with the new info. That update is precious, and allows the devs to be more sure that their own efforts won't be wasted. Or in the best scenario, a dev with the same bug may find your current report by web search and decide to get the code and track it down themselves, and the team gets bigger by one person.

More than enough

[QuietLagoon]

...LibreOffice does not provide the same level of features and finesse Microsoft's suite may boast,...

I've been using LibreOffice for a few years. Yes, LibreOffice does not have all the super-neat features that MS Office has, but LibreOffice does have all the features I need and then some.

.
I see no need to pay Microsoft for a bloated office suite when LibreOffice works so well for me.

Re:Is LO catching up with MS Office?

[nate_in_ME]

Unless they changed something that I haven't read about yet, they haven't moved to a subscription-only model for Office quite yet. They do offer it as an option, but it's still an option to go out and buy a physical copy of Office 2013 (the last "official" release for Windows) as well.

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[FranTaylor]

The point is that developing two separate FOSS office suites means duplication of efforts that could otherwise be spent furthering development on a single FOSS office suite.

Why do we even bother making more than one kind of automobile? we should save engineering effort and all drive exactly the same car, imagine how much better the world would be. Do you see the problem with this mentality?

" means duplication of efforts" no it doesn't mean duplication of effort, because these are open projects and the developers can freely look at the changes in the other versions and port them or not as they see fit.

Re:Is LO catching up with MS Office?

[Richard_at_work]

And MS have offered a subscription license model for volume licensing (OVS) since at least before 2007.

Re:No comparison with M$ Office

[Anonymous Coward]

And a replacement for Visio.

And before the inevitable reply, no, Draw and Inkscape aren't going to cut it. Draw is overly simplistic and lacks the precision pseudo-CAD stuff that Visio includes. It's also geared toward replacing Powerpoint. Inkscape is a vector art tool that would be a more suitable replacement for Illustrator than for Visio.

Re: No comparison with M$ Office

[Bing Tsher E]

When I want to talk to A.C. I just open the window and shout out of it.

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[FranTaylor]

I fail to see why fragmentation is a good thing.

really? usually fragmentation is the result of two parties with irreconcilable differences. would you prefer that they spend time fighting with each other or would you rather let them duke it out in implementation land and see who can make a better mousetrap?

let's look at some fragmentation over the years and see how it worked out:

- Steve Jobs took his developers away with him when he could not reconcile his design decisions with apple. He made his own version of the mac os, called it "next step". eventually apple saw the error in their ways, brought back jobs, and now OSX is next step.

- remember egcs versus gcc? gcc was getting old and stale and stagnant, new developers wanted new features on an expedited timeline and gcc said no. so egcs was forked, new features were implmented and tested and folded back into gcc. all around a good time

- remember node.js versus io.js? again the same deal as egcs versus gcc.

you can argue duplicated effort but in fact these forks allow new ideas to happen where they otherwise would not. can you argue with this?

Re:LibreOrifice - GAY NIGGERS Endorse LibreOrifice

[DakotaSmith]

What the frak is this?

Ok, I recognize the GNAA trolling group, but the rest ...

Anonymous Coward, please, in the name of Ghu's Holy Purple Robes, learn two basic things:

1. Learn to use paragraphs.
2. Learn grammar. Any grammar. I'd take French grammar, if you know it

Oh, and one other suggestion:

Seek psychological help. Now.

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[FranTaylor]

and holy cow batman just about every company makes internal forks of its products for testing new features, they sure don't have every developer checking his science projects into the mainline trunk

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[Kobun]

I disagree about your reframing of #4 - Oracle sat in silence far after Libreoffice was created, and it was longer still until Apache had the new project up and running. Let's come back to that in a little bit, however.

Let's discuss licensing.

• OpenOffice.org was dual-licensed, with the world at large caring about the LGPL v3. The final release with this code was on 25 January 2011.
• LibreOffice is licensed under the LGPL v3. Its initial release was also on 25 January 2011.
• Apache OpenOffice is under the Apache License v2. Initial release was 8 May 2012.

LibreOffice is under exactly the same license as OpenOffice.Org was - it defies logic to maintain that LibreOffice broke away from OpenOffice.org because of the license, and then kept that exact same license.

Consensus is that, after Oracle's purchase of Sun in 2010, OpenOffice.org was likely to be axed. Oracle showed little to no interest in it, and said even less. LibreOffice had nearly a half-year of uncontested mind-share before Oracle finally axed their paid developers and dumped the remains of OpenOffice on the Apache foundation for resurrection (re-licensing it in the process) in what was widely seen an attempt to save face. And it still took almost another year after that for the first release, due to the Apache re-licensing (which came well after the decision to create TDF).

Wikipedia is extensively sourced here. Perhaps it would be better to point out the specific pieces you feel are wrong?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Stability, not features

[Comboman]

I've been forced to work with LibreOffice for the last year after working in MS Office for a decade. For me the problem with LibreOffice is not features but stability. LibreOffice Calc will frequently freeze and/or crash if I'm working with large data sets (no complicated calculations, just a lot of raw data that Excel can handle without problems). LibreOffice Write is okay (in fact, it handles old versions of MS Word documents better than the new version of Word) but random weirdness with images and tables moving around makes it hard to trust. Fancy features I can live without, but the lack of stability drives me crazy.

Re:No comparison with M$ Office

[qpqp]

So, Sharepoint is not part of Office? Okay... There's quite a few F/L/OSS alternatives for corporate groupware, if you look for them, you might learn something.

The next chapter

[Tough Love]

The next chapter of the LibreOffice story must be "Full port to Android". It is pathetic that this has not already happened. No fault of the LibreOffice devs, it is the fault of the corporations who never managed to get their sorry asses out of bed to put money behind an effort that benefits themselves more than anybody.

No, not Google. Google hates LibreOffice because it competes with their cloud lock-in agenda and, trust me, Google is no charitable nest of fairy godmothers. Samsung should have backed the Android port, starting years ago. Instead they wasted ten (100?) times the money that would be needed to add a half dozen full time Libreoffice devs and chose instead to publicly embarrass themselves with fiasco Tizen. As long as LibreOffice is not on Android, Microsoft still has a corporate lock-in story to tell. End that now, or is somebody stupid?

Re:The next chapter

[FranTaylor]

The next chapter of the LibreOffice story must be "Full port to Android". It is pathetic that this has not already happened.

i know, right? Civilization is failing because we don't have full desktop publishing capabilities available while walking down the street.

Re:The next chapter

[MightyMartian]

There's nothing I could imagine being better than reformatting a nested bullet list on my Nexus 7. Ah, what bliss that would be!

Re:The next chapter

[Tough Love]

I don't know about you, but I have a couple of tablets too. And I have had more than a few occasions when editing a document while on the road with only a phone would have been the most efficient thing to do, even with the crappy on screen keyboard.

Perhaps you mostly use your phone for texting.

Re:The next chapter

[Tough Love]

Bluetooth keyboard. Bluetooth mouse. On an airplane, you can do that on the meal tray in economy, generally not possible with a laptop.

Re:The next chapter

[MightyMartian]

Or I could just pull out my laptop.

I think being able to read documents, and possibly even do minor edits, is useful functionality on mobile devices. But there's a point at which the interface, even with a mouse and keyboard, simply falls down.

Re:The next chapter

[Tough Love]

Your laptop that weighs 5 pounds, gets 5 hours on a charge, requires a 1990's shoulder bag and won't fit on the dinner tray? Be my guest.

I suspect that you have never actually tried a mouse and keyboard on a tablet. Even with Android's relatively crappy and uneven support it's quite usable and works much batter than a laptop that just shut down for lack of power. Oh another thing, when you go through security you will need to pull out your laptop, just what you need when you're tight for a transfer. Your tablet can stay in your bag, which by the way, will be a civilized size and weight compared to those monstrosities the paunchy middle managers lug around, annoying their neighbours.

I mostly leave my laptop at home now, what a relief. The only time it needs to go on the road is for dev-station-replacement, and actually, a laptop is a crappy substitute for a proper workstation, so that's a last resort.

Re:The next chapter

[MightyMartian]

I have a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse that I've connected to both my Nexus 5 and Nexus 7. On the nexus 5, the small screen real estate makes it pointless, and even on the 7" tablet I find the inadequacies of the interface and the still pretty small screen real estate do not translate into a pleasant experience for editing documents and spreadsheets. I'm sure larger tablets ameliorate this problem, but there comes a point, at least for me, where the screen size gets large enough that I'd rather just buy a notebook. I have a nice 14" HP touch screen notebook that works very well as a mobile word processing and spreadsheet development unit. I keep my Nexus 5 and Nexus 7 for document review when I'm somewhere where the notebook doesn't make sense, but if I have to start bundling Bluetooth peripherals to make a pseudo-laptop, then I'd rather just use a laptop.

Re:The next chapter

[Tough Love]

I have a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse that I've connected to both my Nexus 5 and Nexus 7. On the nexus 5, the small screen real estate makes it pointless...

Nonsense. I use this regularly on my Nexus 4 even. Sometimes I don't bother switching to the 10 inch tablet even when its sitting right there in front of me, and use it as a stand for the Nexus 4 instead. See, the keyboard is the limiting factor, not the screen resolution (1080p) or even the screen size. But then, I mostly use my slabphone in landscape mode so maybe I'm just different.

Re:The next chapter

[Tough Love]

there comes a point, at least for me, where the screen size gets large enough that I'd rather just buy a notebook...

Notebook hardware is starting to look a bit fossilized. Crappy power management, no GPS, no cellular data, no gyros, etc. At least cameras come as standard now... usually...

The only thing that stands in the way of 100% notebook-replacement status for tablets is Google's footdragging on the necessary UI improvements, most notably a proper window manager. Which is there now, but it's years late and it isn't enabled by default.

That's the problem with Google's closed project governance. Sigh. But it's getting there, and it's already past the tipping point of me. Now I tend to value portability over creature comforts, but the day is not far away when I can have both.

Re:The next chapter

[Jeremy Allison - Sam]

I know you're just a random slashdot poster, and I really shouldn't expect any better, but would it hurt you to look at the list of Document Foundation (the Org behind LibreOffice) and look at the list of supporters:

https://www.documentfoundation...

"Chris DiBona, Open Source Programs Manager at Google, Inc., has commented: "The creation of The Document Foundation is a great step forward in encouraging further development of open source office suites. Having a level playing field for all contributors is fundamental in creating a broad and active community around an open source software project. Google is proud to be a supporter of The Document Foundation and participate in the project".

Hint - supporters mean we fund them. I represent Google on the Board of Directors, and yes, nagging them about getting a full Android port is something I do *every* meeting.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled slashdot poster 2-minute-hate on "Big Corporations".

Macros, Forms and VBA

[qpqp]

Does anyone have experience in creating forms and scripting for Calc (or another Free Spreadsheet)?
As in, how easy is it to bolt on an interface over a workbook with e.g. non-modal dialogs (not available in Office for Mac) that affect the worksheets? I know some python scripting is possible, but if anyone has a few examples of a more complex "program," I'd really appreciate a nudge in the right direction.

Re:Macros, Forms and VBA

[jdk1]

Using python with dialogs from inside LibreOffice/OpenOffice works well. Complex programs can be built this way -- I have a 10k LOC add-on that interacts with libraries and files external to Office, as well as Writer and Calc. My project uses only modal dialogs, but non-modal should be possible too -- see https://forum.openoffice.org/e....

How easy is it? Not exactly easy; requires some digging, but there are forums available if you get stuck. Python is easier than Java for working with the UNO API, and allows more structure than Basic, so it's a good choice.

Re:Macros, Forms and VBA

[qpqp]

Sounds good, I'll have a deeper look into it. Thanks!

Re:Google docs

[FranTaylor]

who cares what the document says, as long as the font is good

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[short]

Due to the licensing terms LibreOffice can import code from OpenOffice.org but not the opposite way. For the opposite way they need to fake it somehow like pretend a clean room reimplementation or so. I do not know what happens in reality.

Re:It Works Magic

[FranTaylor]

I need:

Reliable DOCX compatibility.
I need accurate WYSIWYG printing.
I need printing functionality that doesn't get broken with each update so I don't have to keep going back and forth between the postscript and PDF driver.
I need it to be fast. Like WAY fucking faster opening documents.
I need it to work reliably. I shouldn't have to think about which word processor or spreadsheet I am using. I can use Word or WordPerfect without much concern, switch to Libre Office and the wheels fall off. Suddenly I'm in IT support mode rather than document creation mode.
Envelopes should not make you homicidal! (See printing.)
Graphing hasn't been updated for years and looks like ASS. We won;t even bother talking about its behavioral idiosyncrasies.
I can go on and on if you like.

The magic is just works versus almost-just-works.

with the exception of your first point, you can do all of that on an apple II with word star or perfect writer.

Microsoft Office needs a competitor

[jregel]

While LibreOffice is undoubtedly a very capable suite, Microsoft Office has also moved on in the last 15 years. To compete (certainly in the workplace) would need a decent Outlook competitor and even additional products like Visio (I know Draw goes some way to fill that gap), OneNote (to which there is no feature equivalent application in Linux to my knowledge) and Project.

Something like LibreOffice is needed though. Having read the [lack of] new features in the upcoming Office 16 shows how Microsoft has slowed down with no competitors.

Re:Microsoft Office needs a competitor

[Kobun]

LibreOffice (and any other Office Suite) doesn't need to compete feature-for-feature with MS Office. It needs to compete on the value proposition to users versus Office.

In other words, performing (well) a subset of what Office 20xx does, for free, is likely good enough for a great many users.

Re:Microsoft Office needs a competitor

[ledow]

I don't see that Outlook is anything special. It's selling point is that it integrates with Exchange, not that it's the best way to do things.

Fuck, it took me 20 minutes to work out how to discover who an email was sent to when it arrived in my inbox (e.g. if you have a lot of aliases arriving in one inbox). Double-click the email, File, Properties, scroll down, read the raw SMTP headers. Not fucking sensible.

Let's not forget that Insert Signature can fuck up depending on your HTML/Text settings (some of which you CAN'T set to always reply in certain formats by default, etc.). Let's not even get into the way you're supposed to create rules and shit, I find that horrendous.

As an email client, Outlook is servicable but nowhere near ideal. As a calendar client, it's servicable and a little better. But the selling point is only ever Exchange compatibility.

And the number of people who own Office who even know what Visio is, let alone have a sensible use for it that can't be done in other programs just as easily, are basically limited too.

Sorry, but Outlook is nothing special. In fact, I can barely stand it.

Re:Microsoft Office needs a competitor

[Trogre]

LibreOffice is fine for the vast majority of users for creating and editing its own documents.

But that is not the problem.

When Shirley at the front desk can use LibreOffice to open a Word or Powerpoint document sent by an MS Office user and not have it screw up the formatting, then it will be a viable replacement to MS Office. That day is still a long way off, since it still cannot open a very simple document (Word document with text and one image) without subtle format changes.

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[Kobun]

OpenOffice.org died in 2011. Perhaps you mean from Apache OpenOffice?

Apache OO can't import code from LibreOffice because the entire project (AOO) was moved off the LGPL when Oracle gave it to The Apache Foundation. Had Oracle chosen to keep the license as is, there would be no such restriction.

Re:Is LO catching up with MS Office?

[Kobun]

I went looking for the news article that I had read - I've not been able to find it. What I found, however, makes me think that I was confusing Office Apps for Windows 10 with Office 2016 or whatever. A couple of different articles point out that businesses will need to get MS Office 365 subscriptions for Office for Windows 10 (App Store). Overall, my bad.

The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[Futurepower(R)]

Mod parent UP!

The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

The poor UI also limits Microsoft Office, but many people have had to learn Microsoft Office as a condition of getting a job. (Microsoft Office: Often weird, unexpected things happen.)

I talked with this man at OSCON 2015:
Robinson Tryon
QA Engineer & LIbreOffice Community Outreach Herald
The Document Foundation
qubit
(AT)
LibreOffice.org

I offered to help improve the LibreOffice GUI. He is enthusiastic about that.

My first recommendation: The icon for Italics should be a capital letter I, not, as it is now, a lower-case italic A. (An I with a top and bottom line.)

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[nine-times]

My first recommendation: The icon for Italics should be a capital letter I, not, as it is now, a lower-case italic A. (An I with a top and bottom line.)

I never thought about that before, but you're right. That's one of the things that's just not a good UI decision. Because first of all, just as a matter of convention, most WYSIWYG editors will use an italic "I" for "Italic", and a bold "B" for "Bold". The fact that it's a convention should probably be enough reason to continue doing it.

But beyond that, there's a good not-completely-obvious reason why that's been a convention for so long. If you're thinking about it on a technical level, LibreOffice's approach makes a lot of sense: have the formatting button icons all show the same character, but formatted based on what the button does. All of the icons have a lower-case "a", but for the "Bold" button, the "a" is bold. Makes sense, right? The button is showing exactly what it does.

But if you think about it like a UI designer, there's a good reason why you shouldn't do things this way. By using the same basic character, you end up with a bunch of buttons that look pretty much the same. Look at the LibreOffice toolbar, and you see a bunch of "a" buttons in a row. At a glance, it's not so obvious which one does what. The "Bold" icon looks kind of just like a normal "a" unless you consider it with reference to the other "a" icons around it, and then you will probably notice that it's bolder. However, the "Bold" icon is separated from the rest of the icons by the "Italic" icon, which doesn't actually look like an italicized version of the "a" from all the other icons. Instead, it looks like an "a" printed from a different font, perhaps a script font. As a result, both the "Bold" and "Italic" icons are a bit unclear.

Maybe that was too convoluted to follow. However, I can honestly say that this bothered me even before I could quite put my finger on what was bothering me. As soon as I read your post, I looked at the toolbar and thought, my first instinct at a glance would be to think the "Bold" icon was to make the font "normal", and the "Italic" icon would make turn the font to "script".

I know there are people here who will say, "So what?! Just learn to use it. It's not hard to figure out or remember which button does what." Still, a good UI will be readily understandable at a glance. By having the LibreOffice toolbar filled with similar-looking buttons, it makes it just a little bit harder to quickly pick the one you want without really paying attention.

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[adamrut]

The default icon theme (Breeze) in LibreOffice 5 uses a capital I. Maybe your recommendation worked!

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[Oligonicella]

A desire to be 'different' from OpenOffice Writer then. I have OOW up now and the italic is a barred capital I in italic.

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[KGIII]

I just checked in LinuxMint with Libre 5. I have never opened it before so I assume it is default as I had to install it manually (then I updated the ppa and now have two installs but that is another story) and it is using the lowercase 'a' for everything.

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[jdk1]

On my machine (LibreOffice 5, Windows), Tango is the automatic (i.e. default) theme, showing lowercase "a" icons.

Galaxy seems to be the default for OpenOffice, and it shows the traditional B/I/U icons. Switching LibreOffice to Galaxy and changing icon size to small (both under Tools -> Options -> View) makes the icons look an awful lot like OpenOffice.

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[rastos1]

I'll throw a wrench in (sorry): did you consider localization? I.e. if the word "bold" has no "B" in the translation. I just checked a localized MS Office and it also uses a letter for all of bold/italic/underline that is unrelated to the translation of those words. Using the same letter avoids the problem. (I'd curious what the icon looks like in CJK for example.) The point is, when you start thinking about it, it is not so clear cut.

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[Pascal Sartoretti]

Most WYSIWYG editors will use an italic "I" for "Italic", and a bold "B" for "Bold". The fact that it's a convention should probably be enough reason to continue doing it.

That's fine in English, but what about other languages ? Would you use a "F" in German for "Bold" (Fett) and a "G" in French ("Gras") ?

Sorry, I prefer icons that are not language-related.

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[nine-times]

... maybe do what's the existing convention in that language?

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[kimvette]

> My first recommendation: The icon for Italics should be a capital letter I, not, as it is now, a lower-case italic A. (An I with a top and bottom line.)

So... still a human factors issue. If I want an I in italics, I need to click the i button? Why can I not continue to use the keyboard to type an i?

Okay, that's a silly example that wouldn't actually happen (I hope), but I just wanted to show you that human factors isn't perfect nor will it be. There will always be people who find stuff confusing. I think using the same character with all the style keys is intuitive IF you use the SAME TYPEFACE... but you are right though, for many people using the first letter of the name of the style would be better. And yet, it still manages to work. If the clusterfuck that is the Microsoft Office Ribbon can work, so can any variety of messed up UI designs. LibreOffice is less messed up than the MS Office UI, IMHO. You don't need to go hunting in LibreOffice to find a style feature - if you can't find it in the toolbar you will easily find it in the menu. Not possible in MS Office any more since the menu is gone, so nothing to make up for a shitty UI.

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[websitebroke]

That sounded really unfamiliar, so I opened Libre Office (v4.2.8.2 on Ubuntu) to see what the letters on the buttons are. B for bold, i for italics, and u for underline. I'd post a screenshot if that was a /. thing to do.

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[websitebroke]

For something that's so language-based in the first place, localizing the icons makes perfect sense to me. In Spanish, "N" (Negrita), "c" (cursiva), and "s" (subrayada).

Perhaps a trickier problem is what to do when a language doesn't use the same type conventions. Does $LANGUAGE use underlining at all? Does it use some completely different convention?

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[Pascal Sartoretti]

For something that's so language-based in the first place, localizing the icons makes perfect sense to me. In Spanish, "N" (Negrita), "c" (cursiva), and "s" (subrayada).

If you only use applications in one language, that's fine; but many people around the world use some applications in their native language, and some other ones in English (the ratio varying among people).

I mostly use applications in English, but for some "corporate" applications I have to use the French version; believe me, it is a real PITA to have to use "Ctrl-D" at home and "Ctrl-B" at work to do exactly the same thing in Excel...

Re:The poor UI limits LIbreOffice.

[nine-times]

It might depend on the version...? I was looking at LibreOffice 5 for Windows.

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[Kjella]

really? usually fragmentation is the result of two parties with irreconcilable differences. would you prefer that they spend time fighting with each other or would you rather let them duke it out in implementation land and see who can make a better mousetrap?

Usually I'd rather not see two camps split the rest of the community. Because there's developers working on other parts of the system and if you can't get them on board your fork will likely grow stale and die as it lacks all the other bug fixes, enhancements and features that have nothing to do with what was in dispute. Sure it's open source so you can borrow but it takes time and effort and as the code diverges applying the patches will get harder and harder. This usually leads to a lot of drama and a lot of developers get fed up and leave.

If you want a counterexample, BSD has split many times over into FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD being the largest. Linus has for most practical purposes with the temporary exception of the Android fork managed to keep Linux unified. I don't think it's an understatement to say the latter has been far more successful, though you can of course argue that there's many other reasons for that. But there's no shortage of open source projects that have forked and gotten a very inward and short sighted focus competing over their own users, rather than implement the features that would take the project to the next level.

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[Tough Love]

...developing two separate FOSS office suites means duplication of efforts that could otherwise be spent furthering development on a single FOSS office suite.

The duplication of effort if there is any can't be very substantial, considering the rather lopsided manpower ratio. Think of it as more like additional independent eyeballs on the shared code, which is still most of the code base. And it would be unseemly to just let OpenOffice languish without bug fixes and security updates in its sunset years. It's hard to see anything wrong with the current situation.

Re:No comparison with M$ Office

[ratboy666]

The last time I looked, Microsoft Office did not come with Visio. Last time I was forced to use Microsoft Office, I had to get the IT department to order and install Visio (and Microsoft Project). LibreOffice can edit Visio material directly.

However, LibreOffice can also bring in (import) Dia material, which is my preferred "Visio-like" tool. I also use Xfig. LibreOffice can revise Visio material, such that I can exchange with a Visio user.

As to "Outlook", my preference has been Evolution (for a long time). For notes, I use Evolution, Zim, Xournal and Gnome notes.

I am not sure what "the inevitable reply" is. The software I use meets my needs. May not meet your needs, but then, you are not me. Are you trying to sell me on Microsoft Office? That is very likely a non-starter: Microsoft Office would need to be able to accept Dia drawings.

Re:The wet blanket says .. I missed

[udippel]

[Reply to self]

One item I missed in my OP: the worst nightmare: Bibliography.

So overall, LibreOffice has improved very much with respect to convenience of UI, true.
But it has since inception never done any significant changes to the non-basics: Equation Editor (already mentioned) and Bibliography. The latter is almost non-existent, while that of MS Office is just great. And the import of professional image formats was a regression.

I know that there are overworked volunteers, and that's not what I argue about. The overall progress to me rather looks like 'bad' governance: An office suite that Dick,Tom and Harry can conveniently use to write a letter to their town-hall. This part is fully achieved. But years without getting any closer to a Writer that helps publishing larger works, like scientific papers. That's why I am not overly convinced.

Re:LibreOffice didn't rise from the ashes

[Raenex]

If you want a counterexample, BSD has split many times over into FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD being the largest. Linus has for most practical purposes with the temporary exception of the Android fork managed to keep Linux unified.

This is nonsense. Linus is only in charge of the kernel. The Linux distros that use that kernel are fragmented much worse than BSD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:The wet blanket says .. I missed

[rastos1]

it has since inception never done any significant changes to the non-basics: Equation Editor

Two years ago I took a few courses that used lot of math. I took notes using LOo and used quotation editor extensively - using the Latex-like syntax. Took a few days to learn the notation for the things I needed it and then it was a breeze. Your comment made me curious. I have no MS Office here, so I looked up "microsoft office equation editor" on youtube. Then restricted the search to "this year" - and the top 5 search results show the technique "similar to Latex" - i.e. basically the same thing that is in LOo. The next result shows using the toolbar always clicking here and back. So ... can you, please, explain what makes MS Office equation editor so superior?

Re:The wet blanket says .. I missed

[udippel]

With pleasure: Nothing. I wrote that the bibliography in MS Word is 'so superior'.
The equation editor of MS Word has its pros and its cons. Should anyone so desire, I could make a detailed comparison, though I think they'd come out pretty close.
What could be improved definitively - and that's what I wrote - is the UI, the see-what-you-get. Because when you open a New Formula, you get a tiny little piece of window somewhere in your document, and then one starts writing, newlines, and so forth, and half is invisibly hidden behind the window. So I have to click forth and back all the time, since only then can I place the equation where it is supposed to be, and most of all, only then can I *see* it in completeness.
I can imagine much better than changing between the document and the white command line input down all the time. Going down, going up totally to reach the very limited menu, down the whole screen to write, click to see it in the document, click the formula again for modifications that gets me back all down to a command line ... .
Yes, I can imagine a window that actually re-sizes completely with the formula, an arrow (top left of the window) to place that window in a document, and me typing the equation in that window overlaying the document, as a floating window, not covering the display of the equation. What about marking a certain part of the equation (also not possible now), and using my mouse wheel to adjust the size, e.g.)? What about numbering the equations to the right if so desired; either incremental or taken from the heading of the insertion point? I know, the coders will tell me 'impossible', but then, how to surpass MS Office?

But now I have to stop, otherwise I'll feel like filing some twenty RFE, which will be turned down or left unattended.

Since I am at it: OpenOffice also regressed on SVG, EPS. But when I filed it there, someone acknowledged it within one day and had a patch for SVG out within another 2 days. then I had to migrate to OpenOffice, because I have hundreds of drawings in SVG and EPS for my lectures, and with OpenOffice at least half of those became usable again.

Poor Tracked Changes

[bedouin]

While occasional formatting inconsistencies when editing Word files can be problematic, the main thing that prevents me from using LibreOffice is the absence of a final view mode with markup when tracked changes are turned on. This has been a feature request for ages, submitted by numerous people. Apple managed to implement it in Pages, so I'm not sure why LibreOffice hasn't been able to after 10 years.

Re:The wet blanket says .. last hint ;-)

[udippel]

How long did it take to rotate an image in Writer without copying to Draw, rotate it there, and copy it back!?
It was filed March 17th, 2002 (!!) against StarOffice. It was filed, again, February 17th, 2011, against documentfoundation.org.
It was - drumrollllls - solved on July 2015.
This points to a serious bug in governance.

The pronunciation annoyance

[DoctorBonzo]

I really like LibreOffice, but I find it really annoying to have to pronounce it.

Should it be in the European fashion - LEE-bruh? Too hard for us lip-lazy 'Murricans.

I've taken to calling it Libber Office. Like in Women's libber. Maybe FOSS libber?

Yeah, niggling point I know - a rose by any other name and all that - but like Gif vs. Jif, it's an impediment.

finesse

[mcswell]

"LibreOffice does not provide the same level of features and finesse Microsoft's suite may boast". I don't know about that, but LibreOffice has menus, not a Ribbon, and that's why I use LO at home. (At work, I'm forced to use MsOffice, and hate it. Lots of commands I don't need, and missing some that I need. And while there are islands of mnemonic keystrokes to call menu items, mostly it's just bizarre. I'm looking at you, bold/italic/underline (and lots of other commands).