Federal Judge Calls BS On Homeland Security's 2008 STEM 'Emergency'

theodp writes: In 2008, the U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security enacted 'emergency' changes to Optional Practical Training (OPT) to extend the amount of time foreign STEM graduates of US colleges could stay in the country and work ("to alleviate the crisis employers are facing due to the current H-1B visa shortage", as Bill Gates explained it in 2007). More than seven years later, U.S. District Court Judge Ellen Huvelle has found that the government erred by not seeking public comment when it extended the program, and issued a ruling that could force tens of thousands of foreign workers on OPT STEM extensions to return to their home countries early next year. Huvelle has given the government six months to submit the OPT extension rule for proper notice and comment lest it be revoked. From the ruling (pdf): "By failing to engage in notice-and-comment rulemaking, the record is largely one-sided, with input only from technology companies that stand to benefit from additional F-1 student employees, who are exempted from various wage taxes. Indeed, the 17-month duration of the STEM extension appears to have been adopted directly from the unanimous suggestions by Microsoft and similar industry groups." Microsoft declared a new crisis in 2012, this time designed to link tech's need for H-1B visas to U.S. children's lack of CS savvy.

Comments

STEM OPT extension was really bad

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Great recession, almost a depression, crashing economy, loss of million jobs a month.. unemployment spiking over 10%... underemployment way past 16%... and they persisted this farce of 17 month additional OPT for STEM? It is corporatocracy, pure and simple.

Re:STEM OPT extension was really bad

[Lumpy]

"unemployment spiking over 10%."

You mean the government reported heavily adjusted to avoid panic numbers.

Real unemployment was near 25% government reporting of unemployment only counted people that were actively collecting unemployment checks. If you were not being paid, you were not counted as unemployed. Some places Unemployment real numbers were closer to 35% to 40% Detroit for example.

Re:STEM OPT extension was really bad

[Anonymous Coward]

Economy is so bad, they just changed how GDP is calculated. Q1 went from -2% to positive because of it, couldn't allow for another recession so they changed it.

Re:STEM OPT extension was really bad

[tompaulco]

But that doesn't accurately depict the situation that existed in *TECH*. Yes, unemployment and underemployment among construction workers was high. But at the time, tech workers had an unemployment rate under 5% (and in 2008 unemployment overall was only 8%). Considering that it takes years to put a tech worker through a college degree and introductory employment, even if construction workers were qualified to switch from construction to tech, it wouldn't have helped the short term problem.

Unemployment figures don't take into account the people who used up all of their unemployment and were never able to find a job. They may still be unemployed, but the numbers aren't tracked. Also, this number doesn't take into account the number of tech workers that took jobs in other fields because they couldn't find jobs in tech. I know many, many people (including myself) who have 25+ years of experience in tech, but are doing something else because there are no jobs.
Underemployment is rampant as well. Tech jobs don't pay enough to live on, but when they demand 60-80 hours a week of your time, and availability on a whim, you also can't go get a second job to make ends meet.
Microsoft is starting to slip, though. They released press releases demanding more H1B workers a little too soon after laying off 6,000 tech workers. Someone is bound to notice.

Re:STEM OPT extension was really bad

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not true. The government determines the unemployment rate via a household survey, not via the number of people collecting unemployment checks. You may not believe the BLS because it sounds as if you have an axe to grind, but here's their explanation of how they do it.

Family reunification vs STEM

[jonsmirl]

Prioritizing family reunification visas is worse. I know of two people that have used family reunification visas to bring in their parents. All four of which went onto Social Security and Medicare shortly after arriving. The US would have been much better off if those four slots had been given to STEM workers.

Re:Family reunification vs STEM

[rholtzjr]

Trolling unsuccessful. Stick to the subject.

Re:Family reunification vs STEM

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem isn't too many programs, it is too many mishandled expenses. I'd wager, that is run as well as a company with accountability, all the programs you seem to hate could run twice as well for the same cost.

There is nothing wrong with assisting those with needs. The very idea is fundamental to a government, which should have the very explicit goal of "protecting its citizens." These protections go from international threats (wars, treaties, etc.) to protecting citizens from other citizens and themselves. Social programs are a mix of the later. As a society, we produce so much and throw away so much, that having an entirely working populace isn't needed, so people are out of jobs. Social programs are suppose to work to fill in that gap so that their lives don't get to the point where they must commit crimes to be able to live. This is a failing of the current system, as it isn't good enough. Right money spent in the wrong way, usually decided by the trends (War on Drugs, No Child Left Behind, etc) instead of reasoned analysis.

In an ideal nation, every individual would be guaranteed enough support to at least be at the minimum standard of living, so just above or at the poverty line. As an alternative to just handing out money, the government made the EBT cards, which is pretty awesome. I do agree they shouldn't pay for nicotine products and the like, but there is no reason it shouldn't care for medical goods like asprin, bandaids, or cough syrup. The price of food fluctuates by region just as much within a region over time, so having a percentage over the bare minimum cost of calories per person in the family makes sense, and a person good at budgeting would be able to afford more or better products. Honestly, it would be nice if they gave an extra credit exclusively for fruits and vegetables to enforce better eating habits.

With such systems, day to day life for an individual can be managed, but there are also medical emergencies. Relying on emergency rooms for treatment is more expensive than preventative measures in the long run, which is a point where our system fails. It would be great if dental cleaning is offered every few months and cheap plastic lens glasses as well. For the record, prescription lenses are so expensive since only a hand full (2 or 3) own all the different brands, so they act like the diamond companies and create an artificial price point to keep them expensive. In a similar manner, insurance companies (mal-practice and medical) and medical companies in general work to keep the prices higher than they need to be to create greater profits, so most of the money from social programs gets wasted feeding into the accounts of those that don't need it.

It would be great if the congress required an at-cost + 5% for services that everyone needs. If a companies fails, they can be taken to court over it by the state.

That aside, as a generally Christian nation, we should all "Love thy neighbor."

Re:Family reunification vs STEM

[gbjbaanb]

nearly al those programs are for the benefit of the companies. Even health care is a way of addressing the cost to business of paying health insurance, now the taxpayer pays straight off and the insurance companies are happy.

H1B has little to do with a skills shortage, its a way to help companies pay their staff much less and also to ignore training of existing staff. Microsoft could have retrained all those tech workers they laid off from Nokia, but they chose to sack them all and then complain about the lack of skilled workers (so much so they now "need" more H1B workers....)

So yes it would be good if programmes were created to care for the health and social security of the citizens, but you're not going to ever get it from either of the main parties.

Re:Family reunification vs STEM

[Bing Tsher E]

Family reunification should be something that an immigrant can accomplish on their own. If they want to reunite their family, they can return to their home country to be with their family.

I'll believe it's an emergency when 2 thingshappen

[NotSoHeavyD3]

1. Wages increase

2. They bring in people on green cards for 5-10 years for any employer instead of this H1B nonsense where they bring people in with a leash around their figurative nuts and hand the nut leash to one company.

Total Horseshit, As Always

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no shortage of tech workers. There is only a shortage of people willing to work at rates management wants. And these are not burger flipper jobs that can only sustain paying employees out of the $5 value menu gross proceeds. These are wildly profitable tech giants with billions in revenue.

Re:Total Horseshit, As Always

[gweihir]

Indeed. Something went very wrong after the last crisis was over: Companies continued to decrease STEM staff quality and wages paid, despite revenues being back to good and sometimes excellent. This has two effects, both catastrophic in the long run: 1.) fewer and fewer bright and capable people will go into STEM 2.) when the next crisis hits, companies will be a lot less able to deal with it, as they have systematically dumbed down their employee-pools. The only "positive" effects for the companies I see is even higher bonuses for even less deserving CEOs and the like.

Somehow, they have completely forgotten that STEM is hard, it is what makes the modern world tick, and that good STEM workers are both critical for the long-term success of any tech company and hard to get.

Re:Total Horseshit, As Always

[currently_awake]

American industry is systematically exporting their entire STEM industry, along with their manufacturing and science. Once it's gone the USA will not be able to afford to buy it back. Looks like they want the American economy to be built around banking/finance/investment/copyright. This is a bad idea because these are all "Luxury" industries, that always do poorly in a recession. If you build your economy around them then your country goes broke during a recession (even the rich would suffer).

comparing overall unemployment rate

[Anonymous Coward]

Comparing the tech worker unemployment rate with overall unemployment is bogus.
The Construction industry was decimated and so was finance. And sll of the unskilled workers were creamed too.

And then there is the attrition of tech workers. After 35 or so, jobs start getting harder to come by and with the continued offshoring and H1-b hiring, many of us saw the writing on the wall and left. Half of my MBA class were tech workers looking to get out.

When you leave or get forced out of tech, you are no longer counted as a tech worker. When big decides to eliminate a whole division and send it overseas and flood the job market with unemployed workers, the younger ones get hired first and the older ones get left behind.

Please, spare me the fairy tale that "if you have the skills, there's work for yoy," when you are unemployed in tech, you are damaged goods -"if he was any good, he'd have a job." (Kids, always have another job queued up.)

And there were quite a few guys from India, Middle East, Eastern Europe there - and they were all aiming at our markets. See, their foreign based companies were paying their way.

Re:comparing overall unemployment rate

[ranton]

Please, spare me the fairy tale that "if you have the skills, there's work for yoy," when you are unemployed in tech, you are damaged goods -"if he was any good, he'd have a job." (Kids, always have another job queued up.)

Please spare me the fairy tale that "even if you have the skills, its hard to find jobs in tech." I know four highly skilled IT workers in their 30's and 40's that have been fired or laid off in the last couple of years. Every one of them found work within a month. I know two mediocre IT workers in their 30's who were fired or laid off in the last few years, and one found work in a couple months (with a promotion to senior dev) and the other took four months. I do know a handful of tech workers who no longer work in tech because they couldn't find work, but they were never someone I would hire based on their ability.

And I live in the Midwest, not some west coast IT paradise. The simple fact is we are currently in a sellers market, and if you are good you can set your own rates. I was unsatisfied with the projects I was being given about 6 months ago, and got my acceptance letter from a new company within 3 weeks from the start of my job search. With about a 20% raise. Although I am only 35, so I guess according to you its all downhill from here.

Re:comparing overall unemployment rate

[JustNiz]

>> People who are still in their early careers don't realize how vulnerable they become when they get older.

As a 52 year old software developer I get what you are saying. The trick is to be in the right industry. All the young guns are mostly doing only web and web-related stuff because they think its cool. Just avoid that whole thing.

What helps is that those guys seem to be pretty much clueless when it comes to bare metal stuff like embedded systems and device drivers etc because it seems even in CS degrees these days they don't teach anything as low-level as C, let alone assembler or how computers actually work any more. It seems most of those guys are completely out of their comfort zone around any language/environment that doesn't have a garbage collector, isn't in a VM or container, can't be scripted and doesn't come with a massive app framework that includes giant libraries of helper functions to do all the actual heavy lifting.

Re:Funny

[jedidiah]

...too early in the morning.

What Silicon Valley hipsters are likely to object to are "indentured servant" visas. This is one problem with the low skill illegals actually. The situation helps create an underclass that can be easily abused.

That's what H1Bs are for, they are a tool to abuse labor.

I've always said that if a guy's talents are worth importing, then it's worth importing that guy as an EQUAL.

None of this stupid indentured servant crap.

There is indeed a crisis

[paiute]

Large companies are having real problems finding skilled people they can pay minimum wage and treat like chattel.

Nice to know

[rsilvergun]

that right when the entire US economy was imploding in 2008 and my life was going to shit because of it that several thousand more foreign workers were allowed to stay in this country. I was wondering why Bernie Sanders has been doing so well in the polls. As always vote left. Vote for the most left leaning candidate you can get your hands on. You can bet we'll have fewer judges when Jeb is in the Whitehouse...

Re:There is no way this looks good.

[jafiwam]

Meanwhile, Real IT Pro's know there's a tremendous shortage of real Talent out there, and it has gotten so bad companies can only stumble upon people who know what they are doing. Everyone else just kinda passes as somewhat knowing what they are doing.

I am not surprised at all this tired old lie would show up as an anonymous first post in a thread like this.

Pay more, more will come. Very simple. Why would anybody bother to learn / earn experience for your shit-pay job? Your problem is YOU.

That was NOT the target

[wonkavader]

There's nothing wrong with giving foreigners who just graduated from an American college the chance to stay and work. These are people who competed to get into school and won, had the money to pay for it, and then learned more at the school. These are precisely the folks we want to stay here.

This should be extended to graduates with good grades in all disciplines, not dialed back.

The real problem is H1Bs and the difficulty in getting a green card. It's the indentured servitude nature of the immigration-work-model which allows companies to pay less and force down American wages. We should provide enough protection to foreign workers that they can tell an employer to shove it.

People can apply for work visas if they have something to offer, and they can come and help pay for our college system and prove that they can work VERY hard and learn fast via the school-visa program. We should embrace everybody coming in on that path. H1Bs are simply destructive.

Re:Discontinue H1B

[russotto]

If a masters degree or a PhD from anywhere in the world were a reliable indication of intelligence, you might have a point. It isn't. There's any number of learned idiots.

Re: There is no way this looks good.

[Anonymous Coward]

we rarely even get through the interview and to the point where you make an offer.

Are you out looking for candidates yourself or are you going through HR? The reason I ask is that if you're going through HR, you're almost certainly getting idiot candidates who know how to push all of HR's buttons and tick every requirement from the ridiculous job description (also prepared by HR) on their doctored resume. The really good recruits, who refuse to engage in HR shenanigans or game playing are getting dropped as "not qualified". Finally, really good IT people tend to be introverts and not exactly the most outgoing or socially minded people. It's easy for these kind of people to be missed by an HR department staffed with non-tech extroverts who majored in liberal arts. Sometimes, in order to find good tech people, you have to do more to meet them where they're at instead of waiting for them to beat a path through the HR jungle.

Re:Vacant homes for the homeless?

[ExekielS]

It is classic market failure. Our abandoned homes outnumber the homeless by almost 10 to 1 factor. In a proper market, prices would fall until renters move up to homes, homeless move up to renting, fewer people inhabit each house/apartment, etc. But prices aren't dropping, so the supply and demand can't meet, because of the powerful banks who seek to control and extort from society for somebody's basic right to exist.