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Evidence That H-1B Holders Don't Replace US Workers
Okian Warrior writes: In response to Donald Trump's allegations that H1B visas drive Americans out of jobs, The Huffington Post points to this study which refutes that claim. From the study: "But the data show that over the last decade, as businesses have requested more H-1Bs, they also expanded jobs for Americans." This seems to fly in the face of reason, consensus opinion, and numerous anecdotal reports. Is this report accurate? Have we been concerned over nothing these past few years? Remember, this is about aggregates, rather than whether some specific job has been replaced.
This just means there's more demand for skilled workers than h1b's and native talent pool combined.
I have a bunch of H-1B workers (All Indian) at my place of employment, so yeah, they DO replace American workers.
BFD.
That doesn't preclude H1Bs having replaced US workers. Maybe the companies would have hired MORE US workers if they hadn't gotten H1Bs.
The Puffington Host - land of Thalidomide-brained morons.
How about this explanation instead: an expanding business hires people, but can't replace them all with H1-B's.
MRW I saw someone claim that researches show "H-1BS DON’T REPLACE U.S. WORKERS".
Always consider the source. This "study" is totally biased and funded by the libertarian--regulation hating Koch Brothers and their CATO institute. This is false and not true.
What the H1B provides is a means for an employee to *NOT* participate in relocation. By offering H1B positions, companies do not actively recruit people from other areas, assist in relocation, the alternative is to open more branch offices in other locations near the groups of people. Instead, they offer the H1B because (1) the cost of that worker is less, and (2) they do not need to provide relocation. Lastly, most H1B workers want a green card. The problem is once the worker starts the green card process they are sort of an indentured servant to the sponsoring company. They cannot quit, they cannot threaten to leave otherwise they loose the green card. This process lasts from 3 to 6 years. If the H1B worker had job mobility as a normal american does, the H1B worker would recognize the low pay, demand higher pay, or move on to another job in the USA leaving the low paying company with a hole. This job mobility (or non-mobility) by the H1B worker solves or causes the problem. I know this, I have been involved with these types of decisions, or watched these types of decisions occur right before me over the last 30+ years writing software.
If two jobs are created by an American country on American soil, and one of the jobs goes to a previously unemployed American citizen, while the other goes to an H1-B, then an American job is displaced.
If you bring in 1 H1B to write the code, and then hire 5 capable college educated american adults part time for 29.5 hours so they can not qualify for benefits and cap them around 7.25, then yes, your H1B has actually resulted in a net gain of american job opportunity. #McWinsAgain
Also, remember that part of the fight is about _expanding_ the pool of H1-Bs. From the pov of the employers, if current levels of H1Bs mean they aren't getting cheaper labor, then clearly they don't have enough H1-Bs. The study doesn't project what would happen if the number were increased substantially.
This is BS. The author of TFA is using the third type of lie, statistics, to suggest that H-1Bs aren't having a negative affect, by setting up a strawman argument. Sure, H-1Bs may not increase unemployment, IN AGGREGATE. But that's as easy as saying, "Well, Initech replaced 50 American coders with H-1Bs, but there's a new McDonalds open down the road that hired 60 people at minimum wage, so unemployment is down!"
There was no mention of salaries, benefits, much less anything specific to particular fields, not even "IT." At most he made an argument that "STEM grads are less likely to be unemployed" but that means nothing, because that can still be true even if they're not being given the opportunities they should.
This is just a rewording of the old saw that illegal immigrants are doing the jobs that Americans won't do -- at salaries that are too low. If the flow of H1-Bs dried up, then wages would rise as the American tech workers would become more valuable. As wages rose, then becoming a tech worker would be viewed more favorably.
With the same evidence, Huff Po could have argued that H1-Bs are depressing wages for American tech workers.
Economics 101.
Supply and Demand: If Demand stays constant and supply goes up, cost for services go down.
So during the late 1990's we had a High Demand for Tech, and at the current supply, tech workers were getting exceptional pay and benefits. Then during the Clinton Administration they opened the H1B1 for tech workers, because they saw this as a permanent increase in demand, and wouldn't meet supply in the near future.
However after Y2k settled down and a new infrastructure was setup demand settled (The tech bubble pop), however there is now a glut of tech workers, and H1B1 and the new infrastructures allowed for outsourced IT services. Thus so many tech workers, caused the salaries of tech workers to plummet.
Now technology demand is going up as the Y2k infrastructure is approaching 20 years old. So IT worker salaries are on the rise.... H1B1 increases will cause a drop in salaries, so many tech workers will leave work, as the lower salaries will not be acceptable.
However if a company is trying to stay competitive, and they find if they layoff their local workforce, and hire H1B1 for half the price, then they can make up for the cost of high turnover.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Dey turk ur jawbs!
The issue is not whether both populations are increasing, the issue is whether the number of regular workers would be more or less or the same without the H-1B abuses.
The Huffington Post's hatred of Trump runs so deep that they feel compelled to take opposing positions, even on issues that they would normally agree with. As a Sanders supporter (to provide context in terms of my opposition to Trump), I have to say that I agree with the premise that American business is using the H1B visa program to increase the supply of IT labor and drive down labor costs. It's the same reason business supports illegal immigration. It's all about driving down wages. Anyone who cares to look can see that wage growth over the last 100 years is negatively correlated with the rate of immigration.
Check this action out: 13 million jobs added, yet from the same article:
So, the actual unemployment rate (the labor force participation rate) was unchanged in spite of thirteen million new jobs, and the number of people who need full-time work to support themselves but are only working part-time is also unchanged, meaning that the number of Americans with unmet needs was unchanged.
How can there be 13M new jobs yet Americans' status hasn't improved?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Yes, americerr and americerrns are all Nazi white supremacist types so I am not surprised that the Commiengton Post doesn't reach their target audience in that concentration camp.
They are not comparing wages for ALL H1B workers, only the "Highly Skilled" ones. So they exclude all the low wage H1B workers meaning they are comparing the Elites against a country in recession and come to the conclusion things are fine. A more accurate comparison is how wages/benefits have dropped steadily at the same time the Corporations are claiming a massive skills shortage (supply and demand doesn't work that way).
And I can fake that evidence for just $29.95!
Any report, with a carefully selected pool (read as pre-screened) of people to take your poll will achieve the outcome you desire.
Just another fake report based off of fake analysis paid for by your donations to both the Democratic and Republican political parties.
From the website of the entity who did the "study":
This is a partisan entity who makes reports for the assholes telling us H1Bs are necessary to support their point.
This isn't objective. This is made my people who think giving industry the power to fuck us all over is good for the economy.
Which means you should view this for exactly what it is ... paid shills writing papers to support the conclusions of the people paying for it.
Next they'll tell us trick down economics really works, and all those tax breaks for the wealthy and the corporations have led to prosperity and job growth, when that is provably false.
Now tell us about the fucking Easter Bunny.
Libertarian think tanks don't have facts. They have ideology.
It means there's more demand for CHEAPER skilled workers than the native talent pool has.
There is ALWAYS demand for less expensive labor. Sometimes it isn't available. Sometimes companies engage in measures to reduce labor costs. Importing cheaper labor is fundamentally no different than offshoring the work. The basic goal is the same - to reduce labor costs. I run a manufacturing company and we do all our work domestically and pay as much as we can but our competition does a lot of their work in Central America or China so we really cannot compete on jobs with a high labor content unless there are special requirements like engineering help or just in time delivery. We simply cannot pay much more than we do and remain competitive.
Some companies are obviously engaged in some shady tactics to keep labor costs down. The tactics may be reprehensible but the fact that they are trying to contain labor costs should surprise no one. In a competitive market companies HAVE to try to do that. It's particularly galling though when the company has huge profit margins like Microsoft or Facebook does. A low margin manufacturing company might go out of business if they don't keep a tight lid on labor costs. A hugely profitable tech company has no such excuse.
I've heard stories from a technical director at a major American firm where they'd reject PHDs simply because they were worried they'd leave for higher paying jobs elsewhere.
It's not just PHDs. I have a pair of masters degrees and I've been told point-blank during interviews that they were afraid I would get bored and leave or seek higher paying work. It's incredibly short sighted but it happens pretty routinely.
That hiring h1b causes companies to hire more native workers. Not a correlation from, say, companies needing hire a lot more high tech workers also hire h1b's a well.
I have not posted for quite some time in slashdot as I have moved to places where the debate happens with higher quality, but I need to remark one thing: The highest rated posts are posts calling BS with absolutely no hard evidence on why the study is flawed and biased, besides offering circumstantial evidence that it was funded by some evil doer.
People go further, calling a whole field, statistics, a lie. What a sad place Slashdot has become.
Can anyone point methodology mistakes, and not make straw man analogies for the general plebe?
But the data show that over the last decade, as businesses have requested more H-1Bs, they also expanded jobs for Americans.
So if this is the "refutation" that H-1B holders replace American workers, I would say this is insufficient proof. It could be that in businesses that are expanding, you see more of both H-1Bs and jobs for Americans, simply because there are more jobs in total.
Like if I'm running a business and I need to hire 2 new programmers for an American office, and I can hire one H-1B worker at a much cheaper price, maybe I hire the H-1B worker and 1 American workers rather than 2 new American workers. In that case, it's true that the H-1B worker is taking a job that would have gone to an American, and also true that as I'm requesting more H-1B, I'm hiring more Americans. Of course, this is a simplified example.
Now I'm not opposed to immigration. I do think there's value in welcoming the best and brightest, even understanding that on a small scale, they'll displace some workers. I'm just not sure what this thing actually proves.
A lot of people here in the forum fear those people with H1B visas, as they are used to lower wages and increase unemployment. Instead of whining about this obvious bad situation in the US, you could yourself look at relocating yourself to another country. For example you can get paid between 35-55 k€ a year in Germany as a coder or software engineer after leaving university. In US equivalent you have to add another 7% for healthcare and 5% for retirement plan which would be today $43.77k to $68.79k per year.
You mean...Disney didn't replace their US tech employees with H-1B Visa holders? So their US employees did not train their H-1B Visa replacements?
You mean...Microsoft didn't lay off 18,000 people and then lobby Congress to increase the number of H-1B Visas?
You mean...there isn't economic research that refutes that article's premise: "As longtime researchers of the STEM workforce and immigration who have separately done in-depth analyses on these issues, and having no self-interest in the outcomes of the legislative debate, we feel compelled to report that none of us has been able to find any credible evidence to support the IT industry’s assertions of labor shortages." http://www.epi.org/publication...
Sounds like a page out of the Philip Morris playbook: "cigarettes don't cause cancer" - "H-1B Visa holders don't displace American workers"
for posting such deceptive, nonsensical drivel. H1B is the one immigration subject Donald Trump isn't completely bat-shit insane on. Too bad Dice will have to give up their slave^H^H^H^H^H H1B workforce if Donald wins.
(He won't: He's too crazy on a couple of high profile subjects, and too moderate on everything else. The death knell of any republican candidate.)
Really? Large numbers of H1B visas are no problem, is a neo liberal/neo conservative statement. Commies would try to protect the workforce from foreign competition.
We demand our daily dose of theodp!
there are hundreds of large companies that are replacing American workers with H1B Visa Workers Microsoft is a top offender and its probably got something to do with the CEO of Microsoft being Indian.. and the fact Companies are shutting down their offices in India and need to bring workers here Its not right.. its not legal.. and its been happening for decades.... I would bet not 5 miles from Gate's House there is an Unemployed Tech Worker fully able and wishing they had a job
It doesn't matter. There is no such things as "your jobs", it is not something you own, so no one can take from you something you don't own.
We know jobs are gone in the US. We lost jobs to China, to Mexico, and other Countries. We have a lack of good paying jobs and yet costs of education are sky rocketing. We really do have a jobs problem, and unless everyone is happy with a minimum wage job and huge debt. We better be looking after our own and not anyone else.
Actually the Niskanen Center is Libertarian.
They state as their intent to shrink the size of government. This is them wanting to get rid of INS. They are pretty radical, even as Libertarians go, since most Libertarians are OK with UBI (for example), as a means of paying poor people to not steal their stuff. These guys are far ... not right or left ... up?
Very little controversy on the issue until the front running Republican candidate comes out on the side of the /. consensus.
So who is the Niskanen Center? First thing I see are ties to right-wing propaganda organizations like Cato Institute. So sure, I'll read the study and see what they have to say, but the first thing to do with claims like that are to roll your eyes and discount the source.
Donald Trump is making more sense than almost anyone, and the HuffPo is quoting with the Koch Brothers in a non-ironic way?!
Yep, the apocalypse is neigh.
No, Marxist iconoclasm always seeks to destroy.
Perhaps we should ask the 100 IT employees at my company being forced to train their H1-B replacements?
... I've got a bridge you might want to buy.
1. Over ten years? The whole H1B visa thing has been an accelerating situation. I'd like to see a study that focused on the last couple years.
2. If you read the report they refer a lot to what politicians are saying which is a bad sign in a study. It sounds like a political argument.
3. The correlation versus causation in this "study" is ridiculous... they say "company X hires more stem people than company Y and company X also hires more people period"... and they conflation US hires with foreign hires... it literally says in here "every 1 H1B visa hire correlates with 2 native hires"... as if they wouldn't hire the two native guys if they didn't get the H1B?
4. Then they talk about patients and really really highly skilled H1B visa holders which no one is complaining about. No one has a problem with companies importing geniuses. Its when they pull any yahoo into the country into entry level positions of which there are f'ing zillions of americans to fill that same position.
The study... looks like garbage. I've also never heard of this organization before. They say they're libertarians and are a splinter of the CATO institute... we'll see what happens.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
At my place of employ, H-1B absolutely replace US tech employees. HR here is required to, on some regularity, advertise the H-1B jobs as "open" and entertain applications for the role. The reality of that is that HR advertises for tech skills that we don't even use ... for instance, about a year after starting for the company I noticed a job opening for a developer position that needed "VAX/VMS, Oracle, and Cobol experience" ... funny enough, I happened to know a guy who had over a decade of experience with all of those and thought he might like an opportunity. I asked HR what part of the company needed all of those skills, and HR became immediately evasive saying "we just advertise the positions we are told to." Cop out. Tech staff here is roughly 80% H-1B.
Why are graduate schools (i.e. PhD) filled with international students? A University pays the same stipend to international students as it does American citizens. Internationals do get counted towards diversity, which helps ranking, but American citizens can apply for more fellowships/scholarships hence potentially becoming 'free' employees. There's a lot of people here posting on empirical data, and while I feel bad for you if you went through a tough situation.
They're to threaten US workers.
Agree to fewer days leave, agree to our restrictions, agree to be bound by our rules outside work, agree to not work for our competitors, agree to give us all you ever do. We can replace you with foreign workers otherwise.
And they work cheaper.
So take a paycut.
Or increase productivity and get to keep your job as reward for working harder.
And we will demand all these again next year.
Yes, they could expand the job offering... But that doesn't mean they hired.
They could just as easily have filled the position with another H1B, after "not finding qualified candidates". Of course, the salary offering would also be in the basement...
There is a fundamental difference.
There are differences but they are not fundamental ones. The goal is to keep labor costs low. The mechanics of how this happens is secondary. Sending production to another country does add some logistical overhead but they wouldn't bother if it didn't result in a net gain on labor costs. Importing H1Bs or other cheap labor has different logistical hassles but they wouldn't bother if it didn't result in a net gain on labor costs. You're getting bogged down in worrying about the logistics but missing the big picture in the process.
It is great news that the democRATs have abandoned normal working Americans. It presents an outstanding opportunity for the candidacy of Donald Trump.
Sure, the regulations claim that a H1B worker can have another company sponsor it if the first revokes prematurely. How many companies would consider doing so? Company2 sees that Company1 revoked,so the holder was not acting in favor of Company1. Whether it was reporting them to INS or only working 40hour work weeks does not matter. They would not spend the money to investigate the majority of the time.
It's not been the case at all in my experience, although fortunately IME the H-1Bs were hired for the shit jobz with their mad Visual BASIC skillz.
IIRC there was a paper written about this, oh maybe 10+y by a professor at UC Davis. Might be worth it for someone to try googling it. IIRC he was also updating at the time... no idea if he kept up with it or not, and I'm sorry I do not remember the professor's name other than IIRC he was a professor of engineering, either electrical or computer. And yes he was that dying breed, an american professor. Which brings up another point, as I recall my university days the shittiest professors were korean, chinese, or indian with a few exceptions(VERY few) proportionally as compared to the native professors(black, asian, indian, and white). The handful of European professors were all very good....
I'd have to say though that the very WORST were the chinese, closely followed by Koreans.
It is to bad that workers who are faced with an increasingly hostile labor environment where there is a substantial and growing difference in the bargaining power of the individual compared to the corporations which employ them don't have some alternative whereby they could join together as a single organized entity and bargain collectively on issues of wages, hours, and benefits. You would think that some bright person would have thought of this already and organized workers in an effective bargaining bloc. Oh, well, even if that happened, the corporations would probably just buy off the State and Federal legislatures and make such an option difficult or impossible to implement; and use propaganda and misinformation to brainwash the individual workers into thinking that collective bargaining would somehow be not in their best interests.
They should know, but they have plenty of idiots there as well.
For example they riposted that bullshit infographic about what happens when you drink a coke.
This is obviously counter to the prevailing thought flow here, and I'm more than willing to admin that companies can exploit both H1B Visas AND the employees hired under it, but I've never seen /.ers discuss much about how it would affect overall competitiveness of American companies if they could not hire cheap labour from developing countries and bring them in. Some points I see, qualitatively are:
1) Companies in developing world will have a huge cost advantage in IT, and the more significant IT costs are to an industry/company the more significant this advantage/disadvantage will become.
2) Knowledge is generally free of country barriers, and I think most people here would want it that way, which means it is foreseeable that IT products & companies can develop in developing countries at a much lower cost and export it cheaper compared to the same product made say in developed countries. H1B to some extend mitigates this risk in developed countries, and also pulls out the better talent from the developing countries inhibiting , also to some extend, actual product/mature IT product companies growth in these companies. I'm talking about something like having an MS or GGL in US with H1B talent being more competitive to a potential Indian MS or GGL - you dont really hear about (yet) an Indian company with a fully developed OS or IT Product as much as its industry size suggests.
I'm sure there are counter points that would likely mitigate against these risks, but I think these points could have a real , if not absolute impact to the industry as well, and in that sense, H1B might be doing good for the developed countries ( since we're talking about H1B, I suppose I should just come out and say the US..)
I'm sure the HuffPuff went study shopping as soon as they could on this. It got very little scrutiny before being ran to press. I do not believe it.
Everyone agrees H-1Bs are a big problem, until Donald Trump says they are, then obviously they can't be, because Donald Trump can't be right.
Trump is an asshole buffoon who would make Georgia W. Bush look like Winston Churchill, but I eager await him stating that the sky is blue so that we can get an article from the Huffington Post nitpicking the definition of "blue" and concluding that he's not really correct.
"...Remember, this is about aggregates, rather than whether some specific job has been replaced...." ...which means it's about lying.
The submitter/editor is specifically trying to contradict what you know otherwise to be true, and so had to remind you that the story's data need to be specifically interpreted to be true.
-Styopa
This is 100% the fault of unions. If we outlaw unions, ALL our pay will go up, we'll get MORE benefits and the greedy fatcat union bosses will be the only ones looking for a new job.
I was under the impression that Democrats didn't like the H-1B visa program, but now that Trump is against it ...
If you falsely believe that economics is a zero-sum game.
If by "consensus opinion" you mean the opinion of progressive activists, then it probably does. However, their "consensus" is worthless.
Introducing a new pool of cheap workers into the economy causes lots of people to "lose their jobs", quickly to be replaced with better jobs for most of them. Those are the "anecdotal reports". It's basically the same fallacy that the Luddites were a victim of.
With all the rhetoric and back and forth about H1Bs the truth is a little consequence. Anyone who is unable to find employment in any portion of the tech industry can readily point to a story or belief, founded or not, regarding H1Bs and blame foreign workers.
Some in industry claim that the root cause of the need for even more H1Bs is a lack of skilled/trained workers. Yet there seems to be little activity that would result in upping those numbers.
Usually I would consider HuffPo to not buy into government policies which seem to only benefit corporations.
Immigration is one of those strange issues where liberals support it for reasons involving being pro-multicultural and businesses supports it for its supply of cheap, wage-suppressing labor.
I can't decide if this article was posted for the usual left-wing pro multiculturalism reasons or just as more liberal sniping at Donald Trump. The latter alone is a phenomenon I don't understand as it seems like a waste of energy when there are more likely Republicans to actually win the nomination.
I think a much better indicator is salaries. If salaries are = to inflation then there are enough workers. If it's rising dramatically then there is a shortage.
I've been through this on both sides, working for the outsourcer and the outsourcee (as a US citizen for US companies.) What I've seen happen in most instances of worker replacement is this -- CIO signs a huge outsourcing deal with Tata, Infosys, CSC, IBM, HP, Xerox, HCL or one of the other huge consulting companies. This company gets a fixed price per year to deliver the same services the customer's IT department delivered, and this price is usually significantly less than they previously paid for IT employees. (We'll ignore time and materials, change orders, rework, etc. etc. that push the price back up eventually.) Because the outsourcing company has to make a profit on the deal, their task is to provide the minimum service required to avoid contract cancellation, and drive the cheapest cost possible to make it happen. Usually, about 10% of the IT department remains with the company, mostly the business analysts, project managers and other touchy-feely roles that can't be easily done remotely. Some percentage is laid off immediately, and the balance transfers over to the outsourcer. Over time, these workers begin being replaced by H-1Bs or offshore labor because of cost pressures. H-1B labor is brought in to fill roles that absolutely can't be done from some call center environment, and the remaining ones (day to day administration, help desk, etc.) get sent offshore or into a sort of sweatshop "sysadmin farm." This is directly due to cost pressure, and service suffers because of it.
Companies might "create jobs" but they're generally not IT jobs in environments like this. I'm very lucky and now have a system architect level job that I've earned through years of experience in the trenches. What I worry about is that these low level jobs that new grads learn the ropes on are getting harder to find. As it is, I'm often in the position of just telling an offshore team what to do. I don't think arrangements like this are sustainable because you're not building up the next generation of techies to take the high level jobs later on.
I don't know what's taught in MBA school, but I guarantee a good portion of it is telling them that numbers on a spreadsheet are the only data that deserves any weight. I've seen IT outsourcing fail to produce the desired results far more often than it has succeeded. If your company does anything with IT beyond keeping the lights on, you'll be disappointed with an outsourcing arrangement -- but the numbers don't lie, at least in the short term.
Here's what I'd like to see happen: IT and dev workers should create a professional organization similar to the AMA, Screen Actors' Guild. It would have to be anything but a "union" because techies have this individualist streak that prevents them from wanting to associate with others in that way. This organization would do what the AMA does -- limit the number of new entrants, lobby for laws to be passed that favor its members, and ensure professional standards. Low level tech work would be on an apprenticeship basis, which would allow people to learn from experienced folks rather than the hodgepodge of self-teaching, vendor certification, etc. High level engineers/architects would be professionals, with responsibilities similar to actual, real PEs. I know most people think they're super-special and would never dare to compare themselves to their peers, let alone associate with them. But this is the best long-term solution -- it keeps tech a well-paying career, ensures that we can bribe Congressmen the same way businesses do, etc.
"By contrast, during 2014 only 240 billion hours were actually supplied to the US economy, according to the BLS estimates. Technically, therefore, there were 180 billion unemployed labor hours, meaning that the real unemployment rate was 42.9%, not 5.5%!"
http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/the-warren-buffett-economy-why-its-days-are-numbered-part-4/
He was budget director under Regan.
The government is lying totally about the health of the US economy...we are in recession/depression and have NOT recovered from the 2008 crash.
One way for them to cover tu the real disaster is by systematically laying about the inflation rate. They say 2%, but many (shaddowstats and others including my own personal observations) indicate a 5-10% inflation rate per year. So if you adjust the pathetic "growth" rates we have been having with a true measure of inflation (in official government/FED speak as the GDP deflator), then we are really shrinking and not growing, and this is a recession/depression.
Like I've said before. If you are going to make an argument for H1B visas then it should be based on jobs where real apparent scarcity of talent has been shown to have driven up salaries. In other words, Doctors, Lawyers, CEOs.... professions with layer upon layer of protectionism. Once those salaries are down closer to a median income, then we can talk about needing to import a bunch of indentured servants who are clearly in-fact lowering the prevailing wages of middle income American families. And if you just want more people overall, then increase immigration quotas. We need immigration of people that want to come here, not hundreds of thousands of indentured servants like we are Saudi Arabia.
Irrespective of the fact the H1-B's are used to displace American workers with cheap foreign labor, which is blindingly obvious...
The beauty of Trump's proposal, in the abstract, is that it is beneficial regardless of how damaging the current H1-B program is to domestic workers. By preferring American workers for any jobs, and ensuring that H1-B workers are paid at least as much as any US worker filling the same job, you ensure that H1-B's are being used only for their nominal purpose: to fill high-skilled positions for which no Americans are capable and available.
If the H1-B program isn't being abused, then Trump's proposal does no effective harm to the businesses utilizing it. If it is being abused (as everyone knows, really, aside from partisan politics), then Trump's proposal could help limit the abuse. Moreover, implementing it would make clear if it was being abused or not (vis-à-vis the continued usage and/or calls for expansion). It would be a win-win-win... and by inference, you can assume that anyone arguing against it (in the abstract) has an ulterior motive.
They still talk about absolute employee counts and salaries. Well, why H1B visas, then? Why not give them green cards instead? If they are legal resident aliens, don't make them indentured servants. They prefer indentured servants because indentured servants are more likely to cope with poor management (which is also the cause of more highering... poor management means longer working hours and less efficient organization in general).
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
This is the same group that proposes :
. Focus on policies that tackle absolute poverty, rather than inequality.
. Reject taxes on capital, including on dividends or capital gains, and reduce those taxes if given the opportunity.
. Refuse to increase, and preferably abolish, the federal minimum wage.
Ok, sure, it's anecdotal, but if we do want to talk about some measurement as silly as salary levels, I've gotten calls from recruiters trying to hire for Infosys in the US and the salaries they offered were at least %30-%40 lower than the market wages in the US. You can call it anecdotal, but Infosys is the largest outsourcing company in India. And now they are trying to prove that they local American workers are not available by pretending to try to hire locals at much lower wages.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
NO 'H1B' workers. At ALL. Employ United States Citizens only . Or maybe we put your greedy asses up against the goddamned wall and shoot you. We're supposed to be the pre-eminent first-world country on the entire goddamned planet. 100% employment, no excuses. You assholes complain that 'hurr, they're not skilled enough'? TRAIN THEM. Or GTFO.
I was asked to TRAIN my H1B replacement then let go. This is complete bunk and propagandized drivel.
what I do know is after 20 years in IT, I've only seen the number of Indian co-workers increase. I've seen (numerous times) scores of American workers let go, only to see a restaffing from places like Tata and Infosys only weeks later. I'm no Einstein, but that sure seem like replacement to me. Still, these aggregate numbers are deceptive. If some programmer making $100k finds a new job flipping burgers, then technically there's been no loss in the number of American workers. Sounds like MBA math actually.
I've been a development manager in mediu and large companies. I cannot speak for IT divisions in non-tech companies but I can speak for tech companies that actually produce technology and platforms. This is not about "cheap". Developers vary in creativity and productivity orders of magnitude apart. Most managers will tell you that plus or minus $30k is not an issue given these contribution variances. Plus there are legal limits that prevent abuse in H1B salaries. The biggest challenge for me has always been finding candidates that pass the interview bar. About 5% do. Increasing the pool of candidates allows us to find more qualified engineers who do pass that bar. It's simply a matter of numbers.
Besides the rural population you already mentioned, there are another 350M middle class there, and yet another 350M there that are quite well off, have access to excellent schools thus becoming as "highly skilled" as a westerner.
Why people want to claim such easy to disprove bullshit is quite befuddling. No country has a good balance between rich, poor, and middle class. The 1/3rd of the population you claim exists and is "quite well off" simply does not! India is very similar to the US where the top .01% own most of the country and the top 10% own 90% of the wealth just like the US. There are more people in extreme poverty in India which makes them worse than the US.
Getting a degree does not make a good and productive worker in a foreign country. If it did, every company would have more Chinese workers than Indian workers because that is who the numbers have favored for decades. There is quite a bit to that discussion, more than I care to get into in this thread. Anyone that has dealt with development and support out of a foreign country knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Your personal anecdote with hiring does not change the fact that H1B workers are easily pressured into working far more than anyone should. Recent criminal actions against several companies for human rights violations in the SF Bay area should make that abundantly clear, and we only know about the few that were abused to a point where they turned in their sponsors. Of course a H1B worker is "hard working"! That is the point of people calling it a legal indentured servitude. For every one company that uses the system correctly there are at least as many that don't.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
We don't need H1B visas. They *do* result in really f'd up situations. A H1B visa holder shouldn't be an indentured servant. That's wrong. They should be able to compete with natives on a semi-even playing field (ie none of us are really playing fairly- I got a "good" education which can't be said for those I'm competing with). We *do* have to compete with other countries on pay already so closing the boarder and acting like we can't let the foreigners in because they'll lower our standards of living is a bit of a folly.
We need more freedom. I'm willing to sacrifice the southern United States to republicans and conservative agendas if your willing to sacrifice another part of the country to communism and another part of the country (say New Hampshire) to libertarians. And heck- lets even though in some hippie system in Vermont and anarchist non-system in Main. We should then just accept that we can all move freely between said systems by virtue of a right of a right to exist. If one is arrested for a crime in one state then one should be able to choose prison- or be forced out. Problem solved.
> Labour is, typically, a zero sum game. Pay less and the quality of work goes down in one (or more) of many fashions.
IOW it's not a zero-sum game.
I'm confused... when looking at the report there is a chart that shows unemployment mapped against "months until reaching the cap".... when the months hits zero then unemployment drops. When months jump so does unemployment. Yet, the report claims that H1B does not impact American workers... The chart doesn't support the claim.
Pass a law that says ALL H1B Visa holders must be paid $500,000 U.S. minimum per year, and you will see the real truth.
Huffington Post - Go back to stories about Kardashians and Miley Cyrus.
The Huffington Post is part and parcel of the global fascist movement...
I see two obvious errors in logic in this analysis.
1. Rising total employment of Americans does not mean that other Americans were not replaced by H1B holders. If there were no H1Bs, employment of Americans would have been even higher. What sloppy logic!
2. From the article: "If H-1Bs were primarily cheaper substitutes for American labor, the pace of H-1B requests...should rise when unemployment rises, as employers look to cut labor costs by laying off workers." In what universe does this logic make sense? If unemployment is higher, cheaper labor can be obtained by hiring more Americans since they are having a harder time finding a job. The actual results are completely consistent with H1Bs being a cheaper replacement for American workers.
"He took a duck in the face at 250 knots." -- William Gibson, Pattern Recognition
If finding these people is soooo hard, pay them 150% of the market rate when they are brought over.
If they are worth it, no problem. At least they would not be depressing the wages.
My office has 2 Americans and about 50 Indians writing software. Now they have instituted a hiring freeze, and are backfilling everyone that leaves with offshore workers in India. Even the H1Bs are not happy with that last bit. My job as an old dog coder is to tell the bosses how much of their code is complete crap. Most if it is,
OMFG! If that study is accurate, then Donald T RUMP was wrong! I thought he was the infallible bloviator of the Lunatic-Fringe Right-Wing!
If that is the case, maybe all Mexicans are not rapists, and (much more importantly) maybe, just maybe Heidi Klum is still a Ten!
Manufacturing is a bit different especially unskilled.
It is not different at all. Any given job requires a certain set of skills and within the locations where those skills are available it will tend to migrate towards the location with the lowest labor costs. If an area with lower labor costs develops a workforce with needed skills then the work will tend to move there like osmosis. Obviously it is easier to relocate work where less skill is required for the job but that is true in any industry and isn't unique to manufacturing.
Our general economic strategy as a nation is to shift those less skilled jobs out and replace them with higher level and more skilled positions.
Well since the alternative is to lower wages to compete, I don't really see that as a bad thing. Bear in mind that the same thing will happen to low wage countries in time. China has low wages now but they are rising steadily. Eventually China will have to do exactly the same thing as the US if they continue to grow their economy. We're already seeing some manufactured goods that previously were offshored to China coming back because the labor costs have risen so much that the savings has evaporated.
Tech is the fastest growing and one of the highest paid job sectors and requires substantial investment in terms of time and education on the part of the workers. These are the jobs those losing jobs in manufacturing are supposed to be able to learn skills for and take on as a career. There is nowhere to go from here.
I've been in manufacturing most of my working life. Manufacturing jobs require substantial investment in time and education just like tech jobs. What is happening in manufacturing in places like the US is very similar to what happened in the farm industry 100+ years ago. The number of jobs in that industry is shrinking as a percent of the workforce but those that remain are far more skilled and productive in general. Very much like farming there is this perception by people outside the industry that the skill and education levels required are low when in fact exactly the opposite is true for much of what we do. I routinely do multi-variate statistical analysis, work with PLCs, conduct spectroscopy, generate complicated process management tools, develop databases, do operations research, and more. Manufacturing is absolutely loaded with technology and to compete in the industry you need to be well educated and smart.
I'm not sure if OP is an ignorant puppet, or a paid propagandist, but the study was most certainly paid propaganda.
Just a little dose of reality for OP:
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/southern-california-edison-it-workers-beyond-furious-over-h-1b-replacements.html
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-20150222-column.html
http://www.examiner.com/article/the-happiest-place-on-earth-is-replacing-american-it-workers-with-non-americans
I'm about as surprised as if Reddit users starting upvoting cat photos.
http://data.jobsintech.io/
H1B prevailing wages look to be higher.
Wages are down significantly. Why? More on the supply side than the demand side.
I've seen two sorts of H1-Bs. When I worked in big companies, they tended to be much less skilled and much more like the "el cheapo" sorts of workers that many people fear are replacing "good American workers".
On the other hand, the remaining "good American workers" in those jobs were often captive to the massive specialization and gross bureaucratization of big companies as well.
Other places I have seen the H1-B postings, and I always read the H1-B postings when I see them, those postings are looking for people who are going to be paid $90K, 100K, 120K. These are very decent salaries for developers. Not the best, but pretty in line with average mid-career sorts. So, unless there is some huge bias in *favor* of bringing in Indians just because they are Indians (and perhaps there is in some places), the H1-Bs aren't replacing American jobs with lower paid offshore. They're making as much as I would expect to make in a similar situation as an American citizen.
So, in the end, I am fairly certain that the big corporations are probably abusing the H1-B system in some way, but as a hiring manager in an area with lots of developers/technical people I can tell you that I struggle to find qualified people and I am quite willing to pay them a rate commensurate with what they might expect to make with their skills and experience. We simply don't get large numbers of candidates.
I've never personally hired an H1-B. Although some companies I have worked for do hire them, it is almost always considered to be something you do when you are extremely desperate. For that reason, despite my almost certain belief that a Microsoft abuses the system, I don't think that they're completely full of shit.
Of course, I would prefer a system where we could get these people naturalized and have them move here instead of sending all their money home and then leaving eventually with their skills in tow.
huffspam
I work as an IT consultant and of those H1B employees that I interact with, we don't have many Americans who come any where near the skill level..... We have a couple American born student interns who are smart as a whip, but for every one of those, we see at least half a dozen student interns who do not have what it takes. Companies do get an advantage from H1B employees but they also take advantage of the smart kids fresh out of college who have skills but no leverage to vie for the salaries they deserve. Bottom line, the US is still short on producing high tech workers - and that is the real reason that there is a market for H1B workers.
Let's see...
FY2009, 214,271 visas were approved. I was out of work from mid 2008 till 2010. I've since been gainfully employed in a large government/corporate work environment in which it is not uncommon for 85% of the staff to be or have been H1B visa holders.
Since being employed, I have survived two project cuts and received multiple promotions and a 50% increase in salary. Obviously, I was capable and competent.
I actually like the H1B visa program as a cultural exchange. But the whole, we need this because there are not any skilled, capable American workers is utter BS. It's like the "trucker shortage". There is no shortage of skilled truck drivers in America. There is a shortage of truck drivers who will work for peanuts, barely making above what they have to expend in gas. Truck drivers work because they were able to make half decent money to support their families. Now they can't.
We all know the Disney import of H1B visa holders to be trained by the employees they are to replace is not uncommon. The H1B visa program is repeatedly used by corporations to depress wages.
So no, this article is utter BS.
I actually have an idea to improve the H1B program. A tax...for every $100K increment there would be a $10K tax on the visa. An IT worker earning an $85K salary = $10K tax, a doctor earning $165K salary = $20K tax. These revenues would go directly to funding 2 year community colleges allowing any American to attend a community college for free. That's a minimum of $2.5 billion and likely a lot more....
H-2 visa holders are the ones who are replacing US workers because they need no qualifications.
H-1B holders are workers who are filling in because there isn't enough qualified workers already in the US.
No sig. Move along - nothing to see here.
IF but that if is false.... It doesn't create more jobs.
Seeing as how science doesn't give much of a damn about where the funding comes from, pointing out the specific biases in methodology and result interpretation should be easy. You have not bothered to do so, essentially saying, "I will make a claim and refuse to show proof." Nobody should listen to unsubstantiated claims. Therefore, in the words of Wikipedia, "citation needed".
"The Huffington post points to this study."
http://science.slashdot.org/st...
Which point to this article http://blogs.sciencemag.org/sc... which cites this article http://sciencecareers.sciencem... , which cites this researcher Matlof in this paper: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/...
The long and the short of it: "It boils down to cheap, compliant labor." -- Norman Matloff.
This is my opinion. I am not stating this was fact. But I suspect that Trump is either intentionally or accidentally appealing to racist people to advance his campaign.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy
If there are 100 H1B workers, then there are 100 jobs that are occupied by H1-B workers, not U.S. citizens. Even if one argues that many of those jobs wouldn't have been created if they weren't occupied by H1-Bs, one would certainly never argue that all of them fall into that category. Ergo, Huffington Post / David Bier, contrary to your claim H1-Bs absolutely replace U.S. workers.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
"H-1B workers don't replace American workers" be understood to mean "H-1B workers can replace your job but that's OK, in aggregate they don't do so!"?
Either H-1B workers don't replace American workers, or they do.
Also, employers love to arbitrage situations, seeking advantage. Any advantage will do, even temporary ones. It's conceivable (not likely, but conceivable) that right now, the H-1B program is a net positive to American employment. In time I feel quite comfortable that will change. I also feel comfortable that in years past the H-1B program cost Americans their jobs.
If the employer lobby can make the case that the H-1B program was employment positive, at any select time, they will do so to get the H-1B program they want. Then they will stop talking about it and manipulate the H-1B program to get what they really want (lower cost employees). And then American employees will lose jobs.
It's all about economically privileged entities seeking further advantage. They don't care about the American employees (well they do, until it becomes inconvenient or the money issue comes up. Basically they don't care much).
This just in from the DNC's inner sanctum email traffic on what they really mean by "a path to citizenship":
"We've just approved a new plank in Hillary's platform: Pile illegals up in a stadium, drop a nuke on them and pray for them to reincarnate as children of US citizens!"
Seastead this.
Companies don't want to have to train new workers, and so there is a LACK OF TRAINED WORKERS, which the H-1B's are taking. If the H-1B's were reduced, companies would have to create entry-level jobs, so graduates can get the experience they need to become skilled workers.
...every American worker that has been replaced by an H1B worker and, in many cases, forced to train that replacement worker in their job in order to get a severance package.
Thank God you said it - humans are disposable, pure and simple.
Your current "crop" of workers don't meet your "expectations",
bring in ones who do! An I agree with you that we're treating our
women way too easy educating them and all, we need to bring in
some of those poorer countries women who'd be happy to get out
of their hell hole and do anything for an American opportunuty ---
sound reasoning, right?
How 'bout investing in our youth to compete against these invaders?
Go away, Mitt Rommey! Please!
Your first mistake is citing the Stuffington Post.. They do nothing but stump for liberal democrats - at any cost... Just like Fox with the GOP...
The whole line of logic in this story is nothing but plantation thinking - yeah cheap labor.
Seriously, bad grammar in the first paragraph of the study? No, thanks.
It flies in the face of reason because its based on fucking liberalism ideology. Its supportive of illegal immigration. One can't possibly be against H1B but be for illegal immigration. The source is huffingtonpost for fucks sakes.
Thank you for taking the time to continue posting this after all these years, Anonymous Coward. This and other classic asinine first posts are what made Slashdot what is today and your persistence assures that Slashdot will remain the Slashdot I love no matter how many times they sell or redesign the site. I think I speak for everyone who reads Slashdot when I say "Thank you, AC! You da real MVP!"
They bring skills that couldn't be acquired by hiring an American into the company and cause that company to be more productive
Would skills include a culturally-developed high tolerance for indentured servitude? That's about the only thing they bring to the table, since US citizens cannot and will not acquire such willingness.
Never mind that the replacement and promotion rate is effectively nil, since US citizens are considered a problem in business.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
It doesn't work that way. To address and preempt your lines of argument:
Skilled immigrating workers may bring capabilities that are not available in the native workforce
Realistically, they're not. Unless culturally-developed attitudes of non-objecting servitude is a capability, they're only bringing in warm bodies with a lack of citizenship status. Why else would a need exist to train them on non-trivial concepts, a la California Edison & Disney?
...immigration of young employable people tends to expand the economy by more than the number of jobs they take, creating net employment for the pre-existing workforce.
This needs a large [citation needed], since the only "extra" jobs relate to
Legal services that only exist to defend the status quo, which is to replace citizens with non-citizens
Jobs given to individuals closely related to said H1-b individuals.
Statistically-generated "gains" that exist largely on paper.
Remove those and you will see a net loss on citizens and a net gain on non-citizen (guest worker) labor. The "net gain" jobs you (and other non-citizen labor force) suggest just simply doesn't exist.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Not knowing particular tools can also happen, but people with higher education usually catch on in short order. That's what they're trained for.
As to not hiring Masters or PhD's for programming on the other hand: that depends on the kind of programming you do. If your company's work has a lot of stupidly simple jobs like adding columns to a database table, then apparently your company it shouldn't be looking for programmers (as in software engineers) at all. It should be looking for code-monkeys.
Not hiring anyone with a bit of education makes actually sense in that case.
They bring in an Indian H-1B worker and tell you to teach them everything you know. Next thing you know you are told that was strike three for trying to secure the companies network by undoing what the stupid Indian did and you are let go.
Go Donald! rattle that cage.
The only "skill" they possess is a willingness to work for low wages
BTW, that "skill" they possess ...
... is the same 'skill' Americans no longer have
Ease up on that pot, mate.
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
The author of the study bases his conclusions on the fact that H1B visa requests go opposite to the direction of unemployment. When unemployment goes up, H1B visa requests go down, and conversely. He then states that employers are therefore using H1B visa workers to grow, rather than to replace existing workers. My belief is that this is true, but that employers are using H1B workers to grow without paying higher salaries and benefits to attract more domestic workers. My belief is that this is one reason why IT salaries have stagnated over the past ten years.
I'm an H1-B worker in research / education. I'm Canadian and I'm not 60% the cost of an American worker but 100% (as per NIH salary guidelines),
Why did I have to get an H1-B instead of a cheap and easy NAFTA highly skilled worker visa? Because I have a lovely American wife and needed a "dual-intent" visa and could not wait around to begin my current job (there are no quotas/waiting lists for H1-B visas in my field).
I've been through both the UK and US visa systems and both could stand for serious improvement but America (and Canada) were built on immigration. Protectionism is a bad idea and has been a known bad idea since at least Malthus.
This is why scientists defend peer review, it's not perfect, but this wouldn't have made it past the first round. We only need to look at the source. HuffPo should learn not to cite shit like this that is funded for the purposes of furthering a political agenda.
"Established in 2014, the Niskanen Center is a libertarian 501(c)(3) think tank "
I would need to know who paid for the study in question. I'm guessing it was a group of companies with massive H-1B worker staffs. What were the criteria of the study? Walmart would actually have to pay H-1B workers more than citizens due to the low rates of pay historically found in their company. Fast food chain workers need not fear H-1B workers for the same reason. If you look in the IT sector, we have more than enough workers and pay rates have stayed static while the cost of living has gone up for the last ten years. Yet corporations look to H-1B to fill holes in their staff because it's cheaper and they will work unpaid extra hours out of fear that they will be fired if they don't.
I have a bunch of H-1B workers (All Indian) at my place of employment, so yeah, they DO replace American workers.
Yes and I have a bunch of Indian and other Asian families on my neighborhood that may be working in your place of employment. Guess what, they are buying building new homes. Builder and workers are not H-1B. They are buying nice cars, more than likely in dealerships not using H-1B workers. They are heavily invested in the local school systems, improving the schools, buying updated technology and supplies (funded by PTA membership with a sizable number of Asian parent contributers), and improving education by recruiting good teachers, who are not H-1B. This "viscous" cycle of course has allowed more high tech businesses to move into or start up in the area, which allows for more H-1B workers to be hired who buy more cars, more houses, increase school size and build more schools and overall improve the local economy. This is not a zero sum game.
So yes, may take a few tech jobs but overall are creating a far greater number of tech and non-tech jobs. And by the way, if you are qualified why don't you apply, there might be a better job for you too.
But it could be that it plays part in eroding their income, considering that power is in decline for whoever has a job that can be replaced.
See subject line.
The study referenced in the article starts with the assumption:
If H-1Bs were primarily cheaper substitutes for American labor, the pace of H-1B requestsâ"measured by the length of time before the cap on visas is reachedâ"should rise when unemployment rises, as employers look to cut labor costs by laying off workers.
But that's wrong. Rising unemployment means an economy already in the early stages of recession. Instead of replacing highly skilled workers with cheaper ones, companies shut down entire projects. They want to get rid of employees, not add them.
The study goes on to say:
But since 2003, we see the opposite: H-1B requests rise as unemployment falls.
Falling unemployment means an economy coming out of recession. Companies start hiring again, but because of the recent recession they are always nervous about adding permanent workers, especially more expensive domestic ones. So of course we see more H-1B requests.
It's a CV - you don't have to list every degree you've earned. Is an employer going to fire you for having a 'secret' masters degree?
Also, it is a reasonable thing to address the elephant in the room, why an over-qualified candidate wants the job. For example, shorter commute, new technology, new challenges, etc.
I once had to apply for a job THREE times, my first two resumes were tossed as over-qualified. Only when I walked into the HR office to drop off my third resume in-person which included a cover letter that specifically stated I understood the pay was modest and the position was part-time did I get an interview. I had a very productive and happy five year run at that job until I choose to move out of state.
Ken
And we're surprised it's BS? Just another crazy leftist paper.
Indians have infected America with Caste system, a type of Cancer;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
Kshatriya will manipulate you/system and hire a Kshatriya;
Brahmin will manipulate you/system and hire a Brahmin;
Bania will manipulate you/system and hire a Bania;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Please sign/RT;
https://petitions.whitehouse.g...
Casteism
Indian H1B covertly hires/promotes/colludes with another Indian H1B;
They've mastered the art of manipulating/using people for past 2000 years;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...
https://petitions.whitehouse.g...
Casteism
Typically, 1 OK American worker is replaced by 20-50 H1Bs and the actual cost of the H1-Bs in aggregate is higher. No idea why this is a good idea. Won't even bother reading the article in this case. My job now to to fix all the mistakes that H1-Bs make.... Its boring. Wish we would just stop the H1-B program. We need people but not who is usually being hired. I know plenty of brilliant people who are H1-Bs but the vast majority are trash. Of course the vast majority of American workers are trash too... we replace the OK American workers with the trash H1-Bs. The good American workers are never replaced and the good H1-Bs are fine. Then we have all the OK American workers out of work... keep the Trash American's working and hire more trash H1-Bs.... Its a dysfunctional disaster that has happened.
With two degrees, and 30 years of IT experience, I am now homeless and out of work for three years thanks to H1B workers.
Now they can statistically attempt to 'spin' this any which way they like. But the simple fact of the matter is. Most of the Americans I know in IT are unemployed or underemployed, their jobs going to lower cost H1B workers who have replaced us.
Which is fine by me. I always wanted to learn to hack better, and I have been inspired by video games called "Thief" - that maybe, it's these people who have no concern for those they are replacing, that we'll simply go to their houses, and take their belongings.
I mean. What are they going to do - put a homeless person in jail and feed me, clothe me, and give me a bed?
Lol. not gonna happen. I'll be back on the street the next day doing the same thing.
Sorry, I call bullshit. Those 'unskilled' positions are killing opportunties for the educated and experienced for who knows what reason.