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City of Munich Struggling With Basic Linux Functionality

Posted by Soulskill on from the be-careful-not-to-learn-anything dept.

jones_supa writes: Just like the city planned a year ago, Munich is still calling for a switch back to Windows from LiMux, their Ubuntu derivative. The councilors from Munich's conservative CSU party have called the operating system installed on their laptops "cumbersome to use" and "of very limited use." The letter from the two senior members of the city's IT committee (PDF in German) asks the mayor to consider removing the Linux-based OS and to install Windows and Office. "There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use," the letter argues. Another complaint from councilors is that "the lack of user permissions makes them of limited use." These kind of arguments raise eyebrows, as all that functionality is certainly found on Linux.

40 of 394 comments (clear)

  1. Idiocy. by Shaman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is computer neophytes telling IT how things work.

    Like the pigs running the farm. Like the inmates running the asylum.

    Like councillors up to their ears in that Microsoft bribe money.

    --
    ...Steve
    1. Re:Idiocy. by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Computer neophytes are the reason that the IT department exists in the first place. IT's sole role is support. I don't care if it's a $200 netbook or a $200,000 iSeries financial server, computers are a means, not an end. All of us in IT have a job because we facilitate that means for people that don't know how to do it themselves, regardless of the reason why they don't know how.

      If the IT department for Munich either failed to train users how to use their equipment (like how to find a simple GUI text editor like Mousepad) or failed to install such software it's not the users' faults that they're upset. I use vi, but I don't expect Bärbel to get escape-shift-colon-w-filename-enter to save her file, or to understand the differences between CR-LF and UNIX-style file structures.

      I also wonder how good of a job they did keeping the users' workstations up-to-date. That's a huge problem in IT even on systems that were designed from the outset for it.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    2. Re: Idiocy. by MBGMorden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The summary is a bit off. They are complaining that users cannot install these applications on their own, not that they do not exist.

      Which would also be puzzling, as in any normal corporate setup users can't install software on their own Windows machines either.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    3. Re:Idiocy. by bhcompy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're not wrong. IT does not dictate this. IT provides solutions to the requirements of the end users. Now, those requirements could be met in linux, but that's a different story.

    4. Re:Idiocy. by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Computer neophytes are the reason that the IT department exists in the first place. IT's sole role is support.

      Wrong. IT's role is to make things work. Support is part of that, but it's not the whole job. Congratulations, you don't understand IT. You must be ready to be a CEO!

      I don't care if it's a $200 netbook or a $200,000 iSeries financial server, computers are a means, not an end.

      That's right. Very good. But the users are not absolved of responsibility.

      IT's job is to enable work. It's not to hold hands, except where necessary. But workers who need their hands held can be replaced... except in government where it's difficult to fire even those people who clearly deserve it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Idiocy. by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This has been a process that has been ongoing since the earliest days of general use computers.

      I recall when my office moved from Wordperfect 5 to the first Windows version pf MS-Word. It was a fucking nightmare. Despite the obvious advantages WYSIWYG, there were months worth of bitching and moaning, and a few people who pretty much convinced management to let them keep using Wordperfect in a DOS window.

      What it turns out people needed was training. Even a two or three sessions to familiarize people with the interface, and they had at least the rudiments down. I think some of the older staff never got it fully, but as Wordperfect faded into oblivion, they either made do as best they could.

      The complaints being reported here suggest that where Munich has fallen down is in training. People literally have no idea how to use their computers.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:Idiocy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is no way to met the requirement when they change all the time because some porn/gabling/toy software/site will not install/work properly.

      All the 'basic functionally' they claim to need are will know to be found in ubuntu and other distributions. These peoples are lazy liars, or corrupted liars that want microsoft money.

    7. Re: Idiocy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem in Munich is the same I have seen everywhere I have seen Linux introduced

      The workers use their laptops for personal stuff besides work.

      Often employees get Admin rights as part of their work requirements and installing games and other personal stuff like GPS software or specific hardware drivers is common.

      All of that is fine and dandy on Windows because people is mostly familiar with Windows and any one can click next-next-next.

      Often the IT department has to deal with their system cock-ups and continuous malware infestations. "Uuuh I dunno it broke"

      When you give a Linux computer to people 99% of the time it is a work tool, and obviously the workers are not happy that they can not use their new flashy free laptop paid by the council with public money for personal use.

      And that is all there is to the story.

    8. Re:Idiocy. by digsbo · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've said it before, and I'll say it again: 2014 will be the year of Linux on the Desktop.

    9. Re:Idiocy. by Aighearach · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I just wanted to toss this in here, my wife doesn't know the difference between the words "internet" and "web browser," but she has no trouble at all using Skype on linux. If you don't know what is under the hood, it is all the same; you click the icon, the application opens, and then the buttons are from the application not the OS.

      She knows we're not using windows, but she doesn't know what that means; but she can still use it exactly the same. And if she plugs in a USB drive from work, opens LibreOffice, works on a spreadsheet... and calls it "excel," it doesn't matter and it still works!

      This is how it is supposed to be. Users who are not blacksmiths should not worry about the metal used for their plow, but instead they should worry if it can indeed plow the fields they have.

    10. Re: Idiocy. by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Right, because if the company is an exception (makes electronics, is an engineering firm, has a real engineering department, etc) then the employee who needs that access isn't an exception, and those tools are already allowed.

      There seems to be a lot of handwaving asserting that "IT" is exclusively synonymous with BOFH, but it just isn't so. The BOFH is the exception, and most companies have people with rather complete knowledge of the business' practices creating the list of what software is needed.

      And anything actually needed that is mistakenly excluded will quickly get approved, because a project manager is allowed to talk directly to an IT manager. The reason that it requires "good luck" to "claim you're an exception" is that in this scenario, you're asking for something your own supervisor already looked at and reminded you that you don't need it, and you're trying to get special approval. Or, you asked your supervisor and they decided to smack you with the general policy and deny that they could get an approval in order to passive-aggressively get you to stop asking for things.

      My experience as an admin tells me, workers outside of software development needs a special thing installed. Developers have unrestricted workstations, but will require constant admin attention to set up servers, and having dev-ops specialists will really improve this. Generally, even trained developers will not ask for the combination of technologies that meets the existing security requirements; they will ask for whatever the default (or personal preference) setup is, instead of the slightly harder way of doing things that is more secure.

      Outside of developers, if the project managers aren't asking for it to be approved for the whole team, then it isn't needed by any of them and somebody just wants to Be Exceptional. And if they're asking for controls to be removed, they should probably be audited to see if they're actually working at work, or gambling/watching pr0n.

    11. Re:Idiocy. by Yunzil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sure, keep insulting the people telling you that Linux just might have a problem or two. That'll surely convince them of the error of their ways.

    12. Re: Idiocy. by Aaden42 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Have you ever in your life met an actual end user? What you're asking for is beyond the vast majority of end users. Further, most of them if told explicitly, "You will be responsible for bad things that happen on your computer as a result of your actions," will balk and refuse to accept that claiming that's IT's job (which is true: It is.)

      They want all the power and none of the responsibility. Indeed, the user is the problem, but the user is not capable of understanding the problem they cause. It's far more complex than any of them have any interest in learning. They rely on IT to manage systems and keep them running. The way that IT does that is by configuring a platform that meets their needs and locking it down so they can't screw it up.

    13. Re:Idiocy. by bhcompy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So why didn't you train them on it? You change their world and you're responsible for educating them

    14. Re:Idiocy. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Years ago in a previous life I built/reinstalled some computers for customers. We used to install Open Office because most people thought it was part of Windows and couldn't comprehend that Microsoft wanted charge them hundreds of pounds for software that their work/school/mate's dodgy warez copy provided on every other PC they had ever used.

      People were still confused and complained, until we started renaming the program shortcuts to Word, Excel and PowerPoint. Just the icons on the start menu, nothing else.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    15. Re:Idiocy. by Harlequin80 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My office is completely based on Linux and all the people working there use their machines for basic word processing and internet type activities. When someone new starts they get a little shocked by the login screen not being windows, and after asking where the internet button is and being shown the firefox button they are pretty much away.

      None of them have any idea what is happening under the hood and they simply don't care. After a few weeks someone will show them virtual desktops and it will be a whole round of amazement. I've even given linux to my mother in law and she has been happy (as much as it is physically possible for her to be happy of course :P)

    16. Re:Idiocy. by Zupaplex · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You seem to have misread GP's "or" as "xor".

  2. Tell the old dogs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    that they simply have to learn a new trick. Switching back to Windows because some old geezer can't find the right icon is ridiculous.

    1. Re:Tell the old dogs by JSG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My wife has no idea she is using Arch Linux and KDE in the main on her laptop. It just works. She browses the web, Facebook and dodgy Flash games, YouTube etc etc, emails via our corp Exchange (I own the company), and so on. Printing just works as does the webcam, bluetooth, touchpad and all the rest.

      I replaced the laptop with another in about 60 mins after cloning the old HD to the new one, most of that was spent getting the discs out into a cloner. I had to fiddle with one driver (Broadcom WiFi bollocks).

      I update it via ssh every now and then and suggest a reboot eventually when she fancies it. I have locked the widgets and embiggened some of them so they are always where they should be and easy to find.

      No computer OS is just plain sailing, Windows, Linux, *BSD, OSX or whatever. They all have sharp edges somewhere.

    2. Re:Tell the old dogs by MagickalMyst · · Score: 3, Informative

      "...a hobbyist OS that is so difficult to use...It's 10x more difficult to do even the simplest task.."

      Absolute horseshit!

      Linux is not difficult to use; especially if someone else - like an administrator - installs and configures it for you.

      People are not born with knowledge of any OS; whether it be Windows, IOS, OS/2, or whatever. Point and click is how we use most modern operating systems, and learning the program menu and what icons to click on is trivial. Most people can be taught this in under an hour. (left click =action; right click=options. Double-click to run. It isn't exactly rocket science.) One must assume that employees were given a training session before/during/after the migration.

      If a user wants to run a program such as Skype, for example, and still does not know how to use the mouse to double-click on the little Skype icon (exactly the same as in Windows), then they have no business even using a computer in the first place.

      "...is so difficult to use its market share is a mere rounding error."

      Really? You have proof, I assume. Do tell.

      --
      Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
    3. Re:Tell the old dogs by rcoxdav · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That may be true, but how well would she be able to use it without someone like you to smooth out the rough edges?

    4. Re:Tell the old dogs by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 3, Informative

      >> Linux market share is a mere rounding error

      It's at 1.7% as of last year. Compared to Windows' 85.5% share (about 50x more), the author's quip about Linux market share being a rounding error is correct.
      https://www.phoronix.com/scan....
      (Several other similar studies are also mentioned.)

  3. We don't no stinkin' planning department... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Throwing Linux on the PCs and letting users figure it out isn't a proven strategy.

  4. Translations by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The councilors from Munich's conservative CSU party have called the operating system installed on their laptops "cumbersome to use" and "of very limited use.

    Translation: We don't want to be bothered learning anything new and it doesn't have solitaire on it.

    "There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use,"

    Translation: We have no idea what we are talking about, can't be bothered to ask any questions and only want to use what we are already familiar with.

    Another complaint from councilors is that "the lack of user permissions makes them of limited use."

    Translation: We want to be able to download whatever malware infested screensaver or porn we feel like.

    1. Re:Translations by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use,"

      Translation: We have no idea what we are talking about, can't be bothered to ask any questions and only want to use what we are already familiar with.

      Wrong translation. This should be: "those that install the systems have no idea what they're doing", as such software should be pre-installed on any system and be ready for use. Of course I'm taking the complaint at face value here, and the complaint is that standard productivity software has not been pre-installed. To ease transition, they may even consider using the default Windows icon for Word on the OpenOffice/LibreOffice launcher and so. Skype has a Linux version so that's even more of a no-brainer, it should be pre-installed or made dead easy to install if licensing prevents pre-installing it.

    2. Re: Translations by buchanmilne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As far as I remember, their transition strategy started with deploying OpenOffice and Firefox on all Windows machines and making them the default, then removing MS Office a few months later, then switching the OS a year later while keeping most applications the same.

      IOW it is almost impossible that the users didn't have a word processor available or know how to use it, or even if it was the case, thus wasn't as a result of the OS change.

      Not having Skype may be due to policy (which would apply regardless of OS), in favour of other privacy-respecting IM platform.

  5. Normal people have no way to know that by Schezar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Normal people don't know what applications are or how to install them. They click blindly, like newborn infants, until Microsoft Word appears, and then they express whatever it is in them that drove them to this extreme. Outlook is a gateway into a magical world of 576,442 unread emails and 500,333 unsent drafts. The "fix it" button on the front of the machine usually works, but sometimes doesn't. Their grandson tells them to stop hitting that button, but he's into voodoo and something called Mimecraft, so what does he know?

    --
    GeekNights!
    Late Night Radio for Geeks!
  6. How are the configured? by Noble713 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As TFS states, all that stuff should be readily available in Linux/Ubuntu. If users complain about the lack of a text editor in all likelihood the training program for transitioning Windows users is mediocre (and the users themselves are stuck in their ways and won't adapt easily). If the systems are being issued to users with no day-to-day office functionality, that's a problem with their IT department dropping the ball setup-wise. That's not a failure of the operating system itself.

  7. Are they running Windows 8? by jfbilodeau · · Score: 4, Funny

    If they can't find anything on their laptop, could it be they are actually running Windows 8? It's the only mainstream desktop environment that I know of that makes it obtuse to find anything.

    --
    Goodbye Slashdot. You've changed.
    1. Re:Are they running Windows 8? by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      because hitting the windows key and typing out what you want to do is just so cumbersome.

      Hint: there's a reason it's called a GRAPHICAL User Interface. If I wanted to have to type commands, I'd use a real shell.

      Microsoft added that crap when Search was the New Shiny, and everything had to have Search to compete with Google.

      Then they added a tablet interface when the iPad was the New Shiny, and everything had to support touchscreens to compete with Apple.

      Maybe they should just try building a good desktop OS with a GRAPHICAL User Interface.

  8. Dear Slashdot editors by LichtSpektren · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know it is ubiquitous in journalism to abbreviate e.g. "two senior members of the city's IT committee" to "Munich", but it is not correct, and the imprecision of such phrases can wildly skew the impression that a reader gets versus the facts.

    Examine the headline: "City of Munich Struggling With Basic Linux Functionality". Without any sort of clarifying modifier to "City of Munich", one is liable to take this to mean a significant portion of the populace (millions of people), when in fact the subject aforementioned is really a small group of sabre-rattlers.

  9. "There are no programs for text editing" by Solandri · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sure there are! You have your choice of vi or emacs. :)

  10. Re:Maybe they should hire qualified Linux experts by LichtSpektren · · Score: 4, Insightful

    By all metrics, LiMux has gone extraordinary well for Munich. The complainers are a bunch of politicians being paid off by Microsoft; note how there's no actual bureaucrats expressing dissatisfaction with it.

  11. wtf? by znrt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unter anderem können keinerlei Programme
    (Textbearbeitungsprogramme, Skype, Office, etc.) selbst nach installiert werden, welches
    einen normalen Gebrauch verhindert

    no text processing? no skype? wtf? LiMux must be the worst distro ever.

    or it could be that this is the worst fud ever.

    1. Re:wtf? by ve3oat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For some reason, "etc" appears as "etc', rather than "usw".

  12. There is some Background ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Going to Linux was a big politcal thing (pushed by a social democratic administration) in Munich, being thoroughly planned project for over 10 years. Goal: reduce license costs, increase independence. Losing Munich to a self hosting project did cost Microsoft a lot, including prestige. They are very committed to see it fail.
    Now, they recently moved their German HQ from rural Munich into the center (read: into central Munichs tax borders). And they have unleashed all lobbying power they could get hold on.
    These two Politicians from the letter are from the CSU, that is Bavarias quasi-monarchistic conservative big-industry corruption-laden redneck shithead party, that is in lead of whole Bavaria - except Munich, which means, they are in opposition.
    Now, review that case again ...

  13. Re:ORLY? by gQuigs · · Score: 3, Informative

    I was curious...

    If you open the PDF and to to properties it says:
    Producer: OpenOffice.org 3.2
    Creator: Writer

    Now that is a very old version of OpenOffice... and most linux distros have switched to LibreOffice at this point. Does seem like they could use an update...

  14. Re: Don't light your torches just yet... by r_a_trip · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Munich has had this system since 2004. I refuse to believe that Munich could have survived this long on the system if it really was like in TFS.

    --
    # touch universe # chmod +rwx universe # ./universe
  15. Re:Beautiful Theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    That's *GNU/Munich*, you insensitive clod!

  16. Re: Why would anyone roll out any technology... by buchanmilne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They didn't.

    This is users complaining about change, not about poorly planned / executed change.

    You always get these types, regardless of the type of change ( upgrade, change of vendors etc.), because they don't care about business objectives or anyone /anything besides "what they are used to", regardless of the effort that was put in to prepare them for the change.