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City of Munich Struggling With Basic Linux Functionality

Posted by Soulskill on from the be-careful-not-to-learn-anything dept.

jones_supa writes: Just like the city planned a year ago, Munich is still calling for a switch back to Windows from LiMux, their Ubuntu derivative. The councilors from Munich's conservative CSU party have called the operating system installed on their laptops "cumbersome to use" and "of very limited use." The letter from the two senior members of the city's IT committee (PDF in German) asks the mayor to consider removing the Linux-based OS and to install Windows and Office. "There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use," the letter argues. Another complaint from councilors is that "the lack of user permissions makes them of limited use." These kind of arguments raise eyebrows, as all that functionality is certainly found on Linux.

79 of 394 comments (clear)

  1. Idiocy. by Shaman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is computer neophytes telling IT how things work.

    Like the pigs running the farm. Like the inmates running the asylum.

    Like councillors up to their ears in that Microsoft bribe money.

    --
    ...Steve
    1. Re:Idiocy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      computer neophytes telling IT

      Because the purpose of the end users is to serve the needs of the I.T. department, and not the other way around.

    2. Re:Idiocy. by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Computer neophytes are the reason that the IT department exists in the first place. IT's sole role is support. I don't care if it's a $200 netbook or a $200,000 iSeries financial server, computers are a means, not an end. All of us in IT have a job because we facilitate that means for people that don't know how to do it themselves, regardless of the reason why they don't know how.

      If the IT department for Munich either failed to train users how to use their equipment (like how to find a simple GUI text editor like Mousepad) or failed to install such software it's not the users' faults that they're upset. I use vi, but I don't expect Bärbel to get escape-shift-colon-w-filename-enter to save her file, or to understand the differences between CR-LF and UNIX-style file structures.

      I also wonder how good of a job they did keeping the users' workstations up-to-date. That's a huge problem in IT even on systems that were designed from the outset for it.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re: Idiocy. by MBGMorden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The summary is a bit off. They are complaining that users cannot install these applications on their own, not that they do not exist.

      Which would also be puzzling, as in any normal corporate setup users can't install software on their own Windows machines either.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    4. Re:Idiocy. by bhcompy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You're not wrong. IT does not dictate this. IT provides solutions to the requirements of the end users. Now, those requirements could be met in linux, but that's a different story.

    5. Re: Idiocy. by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      Eh, other than your basic phone answering desk jockeys, most corporate strategies give a good deal of rights to the end users, or at least give them VMs where they have complete administrative access. There are not enough IT people around to deal with all of the requests. If I need to install Wireshark to troubleshoot a server/client issue when I'm site with a customer I don't have time to wait for IT to remote into my machine and install the "approved" software for the purpose.

    6. Re:Idiocy. by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Computer neophytes are the reason that the IT department exists in the first place. IT's sole role is support.

      Wrong. IT's role is to make things work. Support is part of that, but it's not the whole job. Congratulations, you don't understand IT. You must be ready to be a CEO!

      I don't care if it's a $200 netbook or a $200,000 iSeries financial server, computers are a means, not an end.

      That's right. Very good. But the users are not absolved of responsibility.

      IT's job is to enable work. It's not to hold hands, except where necessary. But workers who need their hands held can be replaced... except in government where it's difficult to fire even those people who clearly deserve it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Idiocy. by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This has been a process that has been ongoing since the earliest days of general use computers.

      I recall when my office moved from Wordperfect 5 to the first Windows version pf MS-Word. It was a fucking nightmare. Despite the obvious advantages WYSIWYG, there were months worth of bitching and moaning, and a few people who pretty much convinced management to let them keep using Wordperfect in a DOS window.

      What it turns out people needed was training. Even a two or three sessions to familiarize people with the interface, and they had at least the rudiments down. I think some of the older staff never got it fully, but as Wordperfect faded into oblivion, they either made do as best they could.

      The complaints being reported here suggest that where Munich has fallen down is in training. People literally have no idea how to use their computers.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    8. Re:Idiocy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is no way to met the requirement when they change all the time because some porn/gabling/toy software/site will not install/work properly.

      All the 'basic functionally' they claim to need are will know to be found in ubuntu and other distributions. These peoples are lazy liars, or corrupted liars that want microsoft money.

    9. Re: Idiocy. by David_Hart · · Score: 2

      You must work for the same company I do. We have a huge group known as Engineering that does not fall under IT that absolutely does need to use such tools. Typical IT arrogance.

      No, it's not IT arrogance, it's a generalization... Generalizations by their nature have exceptions to the rule.

      The vast majority of users in a company that are not in IT do not need Wireshark or network analysis tools. However, there are companies that produce, engineer, and /or support electronics, software, etc. where these tools might come in handy to verify that the product is working correctly. Obviously, those users would be an exception to the rule.

      With the move towards corporate web based applications, there is even less software that needs to be installed than in the past.

    10. Re: Idiocy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem in Munich is the same I have seen everywhere I have seen Linux introduced

      The workers use their laptops for personal stuff besides work.

      Often employees get Admin rights as part of their work requirements and installing games and other personal stuff like GPS software or specific hardware drivers is common.

      All of that is fine and dandy on Windows because people is mostly familiar with Windows and any one can click next-next-next.

      Often the IT department has to deal with their system cock-ups and continuous malware infestations. "Uuuh I dunno it broke"

      When you give a Linux computer to people 99% of the time it is a work tool, and obviously the workers are not happy that they can not use their new flashy free laptop paid by the council with public money for personal use.

      And that is all there is to the story.

    11. Re:Idiocy. by digsbo · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've said it before, and I'll say it again: 2014 will be the year of Linux on the Desktop.

    12. Re: Idiocy. by BellyJelly · · Score: 2

      Errr no. We do not give our users any admin rights to install software, and specifically forbid it in our company procedures. If we let very user install whatever .exe they felt like clicking, our company network would be ass fucked to a gaping mess within days......

    13. Re: Idiocy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      When a corporation, government or municipality gives a Windows PC to their workers and gives the workers admin access they end with malware all over the place.

    14. Re:Idiocy. by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      This is computer neophytes telling IT how things work.

      Like the pigs running the farm. Like the inmates running the asylum.

      Like councillors up to their ears in that Microsoft bribe money.

      I really doubt you need to bribe "conservatives" for them to know to hate that lefty "free public infrastructure" software and support The Established For-Profit Company.

    15. Re:Idiocy. by Aighearach · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I just wanted to toss this in here, my wife doesn't know the difference between the words "internet" and "web browser," but she has no trouble at all using Skype on linux. If you don't know what is under the hood, it is all the same; you click the icon, the application opens, and then the buttons are from the application not the OS.

      She knows we're not using windows, but she doesn't know what that means; but she can still use it exactly the same. And if she plugs in a USB drive from work, opens LibreOffice, works on a spreadsheet... and calls it "excel," it doesn't matter and it still works!

      This is how it is supposed to be. Users who are not blacksmiths should not worry about the metal used for their plow, but instead they should worry if it can indeed plow the fields they have.

    16. Re: Idiocy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Users shouldn't be adding software.

      That's so 1990.

    17. Re: Idiocy. by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Right, because if the company is an exception (makes electronics, is an engineering firm, has a real engineering department, etc) then the employee who needs that access isn't an exception, and those tools are already allowed.

      There seems to be a lot of handwaving asserting that "IT" is exclusively synonymous with BOFH, but it just isn't so. The BOFH is the exception, and most companies have people with rather complete knowledge of the business' practices creating the list of what software is needed.

      And anything actually needed that is mistakenly excluded will quickly get approved, because a project manager is allowed to talk directly to an IT manager. The reason that it requires "good luck" to "claim you're an exception" is that in this scenario, you're asking for something your own supervisor already looked at and reminded you that you don't need it, and you're trying to get special approval. Or, you asked your supervisor and they decided to smack you with the general policy and deny that they could get an approval in order to passive-aggressively get you to stop asking for things.

      My experience as an admin tells me, workers outside of software development needs a special thing installed. Developers have unrestricted workstations, but will require constant admin attention to set up servers, and having dev-ops specialists will really improve this. Generally, even trained developers will not ask for the combination of technologies that meets the existing security requirements; they will ask for whatever the default (or personal preference) setup is, instead of the slightly harder way of doing things that is more secure.

      Outside of developers, if the project managers aren't asking for it to be approved for the whole team, then it isn't needed by any of them and somebody just wants to Be Exceptional. And if they're asking for controls to be removed, they should probably be audited to see if they're actually working at work, or gambling/watching pr0n.

    18. Re: Idiocy. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, it's good security. Users do not need to have admin privileges so they can install every piece of crapware on a machine which isn't theirs or, if it is, poses a security risk to everyone else on the network.

      Locking users down is good IT policy and fortunately, where I work, it is followed. You need something installed, put in a ticket with a justification. You don't need War and Peace, just a blurb on how the software relates to your job.

      If you can't do that, you don't need it and most certainly do not need to be able software at will.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    19. Re:Idiocy. by Yunzil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sure, keep insulting the people telling you that Linux just might have a problem or two. That'll surely convince them of the error of their ways.

    20. Re: Idiocy. by Aaden42 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Have you ever in your life met an actual end user? What you're asking for is beyond the vast majority of end users. Further, most of them if told explicitly, "You will be responsible for bad things that happen on your computer as a result of your actions," will balk and refuse to accept that claiming that's IT's job (which is true: It is.)

      They want all the power and none of the responsibility. Indeed, the user is the problem, but the user is not capable of understanding the problem they cause. It's far more complex than any of them have any interest in learning. They rely on IT to manage systems and keep them running. The way that IT does that is by configuring a platform that meets their needs and locking it down so they can't screw it up.

    21. Re: Idiocy. by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      I work for a massive multinational. The vast majority of our end users have admin access because it is necessary. Otherwise we'd have more IT personnel than consultants, analysts, and customer support staff. And that costs more than reformatting a computer that someone fucked up.

    22. Re:Idiocy. by bhcompy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So why didn't you train them on it? You change their world and you're responsible for educating them

    23. Re: Idiocy. by Aaden42 · · Score: 2

      I work for a large-ish state.gov. Somebody asks for a piece of software and makes a reasonable case as to why they need it to do work (or at least how it would help them work more effectively), and they get the exception. That's assuming the software isn't malware, privacy violating, pirated, etc. Default policy with exceptions granted on a per-case basis works just fine.

      That's not to say there aren't complaints. No, your fish screensaver (that chews CPU all day long and may or may not actually be mining Bitcoin) isn't something you need to do work nor that will help you work more effectively. That's denied. "101 Favorite Solitaire?" Nope. Sorry...

      Be a reasonable human being to your sysadmins, make a legitimate request with a clear justification, and everything works out fine. Throw a tantrum and complain about how it's broken and you can't do anything, and your call will be answered in the order it was *DIAL TONE*.

    24. Re: Idiocy. by chill · · Score: 2

      because the end users are incapable of understanding that the consequences of their poor decisions extended to much further than the own tools and software that they installed. Security violations of their own personal phone or device, because of a BYOD policy, can impact the entire environment. There are both security and legal consequences of this type of negligence.

      one self-important executive who doesn't think the rules do not apply to them, or that they are somehow smarter than security, can bring down the entire company.

        the ability to make a risk decision for the entire enterprise is a difficult task to put on an individual end user who doesn't have the knowledge or visibility.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    25. Re: Idiocy. by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 2

      It depends on the environment. If it's a company that primarily has expert users by definition (for instance, a software development house), then users typically have admin rights. I'm in videogame development, and typically *every* user in the company has full admin rights - that means programmers, artists, game designers, sound designers, writers, QA, management, etc. A whitelist policy simply wouldn't be practical, because tools change all the time.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    26. Re:Idiocy. by Tom · · Score: 2

      The complaints being reported here suggest that where Munich has fallen down is in training. People literally have no idea how to use their computers.

      The people writing this complaint are from the CSU. That is our equivalent of the worst part of the republican party. In ideology and stupidity. They don't want to understand how to use their computers, because computers are witchcraft.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    27. Re: Idiocy. by Harlequin80 · · Score: 2

      Are you saying that you don't use a standard set of tools to do your job? That everytime you go to a new site you have to install something new, that will never ever be used again and then uninstall it at the end of the job?

      Honestly I find that really hard to understand. I get it that it may be the first time you go to a job you don't have a particular thing installed, but the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time? Or are you never going to repeat customers?

      Finally if it is the case that your machine requires admin access because of all the shit you have to install with your job and there is no way around it, your machine should be treated as hostile. Your laptop should be excluded from accessing the internal networks of your employer and only allowed access via something like citrix.

    28. Re:Idiocy. by Narcocide · · Score: 2

      He probably doesn't want that type of responsibility. I'd do it in a heartbeat though, and at bargain rates, but I assume that if the real thing holding back their willingness/ability to use Linux right was the lack of just one competent sysadmin willing to spend a few weeks on training staff how to do things in Linux that they take for granted having already learned in Windows then they would have hired such a person long, long ago - before the Linux deployment. No, whatever the real reasons, that is clearly just an excuse. This whole orchestration probably has something to do with forcing the government's hand on IT spending, and may have been actually the plan all along before the initial switch to Linux. The fact that the claims are absurd and googleably false and sound more like first-week helpdesk interns' forced opinions about Linux without any training or accountability than the analysis of actually experienced IT staff is the proof something more is going on here we're not being told about.

    29. Re:Idiocy. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Years ago in a previous life I built/reinstalled some computers for customers. We used to install Open Office because most people thought it was part of Windows and couldn't comprehend that Microsoft wanted charge them hundreds of pounds for software that their work/school/mate's dodgy warez copy provided on every other PC they had ever used.

      People were still confused and complained, until we started renaming the program shortcuts to Word, Excel and PowerPoint. Just the icons on the start menu, nothing else.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    30. Re:Idiocy. by Harlequin80 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My office is completely based on Linux and all the people working there use their machines for basic word processing and internet type activities. When someone new starts they get a little shocked by the login screen not being windows, and after asking where the internet button is and being shown the firefox button they are pretty much away.

      None of them have any idea what is happening under the hood and they simply don't care. After a few weeks someone will show them virtual desktops and it will be a whole round of amazement. I've even given linux to my mother in law and she has been happy (as much as it is physically possible for her to be happy of course :P)

    31. Re: Idiocy. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      A friend once told me about a place where they decided it would be the user's responsibility if bad things happened, like viruses and malware. The company provided anti-virus software, but of course it wasn't bullet proof and they told their staff to be careful.

      One day my friend tried to send someone working there a PDF as an attachment via email. A while later she got an email back saying that the staff there don't open attachments any more (too risky) so please fax it through. They faxed her an annotated copy back and she had to fill in the form on her computer herself.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    32. Re: Idiocy. by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      Let's just talk customer access. Basic stuff. For one customer, I use a Cisco AnyConnect. For another customer I use Cisco VPN Client. For another customer I use Juniper Junos Pulse. etc. All of these software packages require administrative access. Each customer maintains this, uses their own specific version of the software, etc. My company doesn't keep a catalog of every VPN client and every version of every VPN client because it's not feasible to keep that catalog or preload that catalog on everyone's machine.

      Now, let's talk remote connectivity. Basic stuff again. GoToMeeting, GoToAssist, Skype, Bomgar, Lync, Livemeeting, etc. More software that requires administrative access. These can somewhat be preloaded, but not all of these are cloud managed, so you deal with versioning again, and for ones that are downloaded every time you execute, you need to be able to run them 100% of the time or every single conference call requires administrative override.

      Now, let's talk about what happens when I go onsite with a customer. This customer requires reports written in JETT, this customer requires reports written in CR11.5, this one in CR9, this one uses an Access database, this one uses Sybase SQLAnywhere 9, this one uses Reality/PICK, etc etc etc. All of these require different tools to connect, write reports, etc.

      I don't control what my customers do, I make my employer's software run in their environment. Some customers may use the same software, some don't. A lot of the time I'm not even scheduled to be somewhere until the Friday before the Monday they expect me to be onsite on Monday, so it's not like I can pull a customer folder and say "here IT guy, install all this for me, I hope it's up to date from the last time we were there 2 years ago, but probably not".

    33. Re: Idiocy. by spire3661 · · Score: 2

      No, if allowed users would abuse the network and NO ONE could get work done. The computer in front of you is not yours. If you connect your own device to the company network, you relinquish all control of it. The network is more important than any one individual user. IM all for empowering users, but I cannot allow you to jeopardize the network without serious justification.

      --
      Good-bye
    34. Re:Idiocy. by Zupaplex · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You seem to have misread GP's "or" as "xor".

    35. Re: Idiocy. by FatLittleMonkey · · Score: 2

      You need something installed, put in a ticket with a justification. You don't need War and Peace, just a blurb on how the software relates to your job.
      If you can't do that, you don't need it and most certainly do not need to be able software at will.

      Wow. That sounds great. But... how do you reconcile that with an IT dept (in the story) that apparently doesn't know how to install a text editor in Linux?

      I mean, forget running Windows-only shit in a VM, a fucking text editor. In Linux.

      (Or a place I used to do training, which locked training machines (Windows) to a saved state... but with all the autoupdates left on. Every time you booted up the training machines, they started trying to install hundreds of updates for every single piece of software. Which half would fail to install after downloading anyway because you needed admin privileges to confirm the install. (And as near as I could tell, the saved state hadn't been updated in at least two years.) Same (off-site) IT dept wouldn't install a widely used accounting package onto the training computers (the thing we were meant to be training on), with no explanation given. At least six months while I was there, the site manager (and her boss) couldn't get the IT dept to either install the already purchased software, or at least give them some idea of why they were refusing. We all just used our laptops. Funnily enough, the actual office network (not the training network) was so poorly locked down, you could plug in any random laptop to any random ethernet port and get access without so much as a login. One weekend, they set up a wi-fi network in the office, without telling anyone in the office, including a guest account for students (judging by the SSID - "Student (Guest)"), but didn't give passwords to anyone who actually worked there.)

      --
      Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
    36. Re:Idiocy. by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      Half the people in the workforce don't want to use technology but they have to. Cops and firefighters don't give a shit about technology unless it helps them do their job, but I'll be damned if cities and counties don't force them to use software to update their timecard, file incident reports, do performance reviews, setup a schedule, etc. If you don't train them, they don't know. I walk into a place and 25% are proactive people who want to learn, 50% are people who don't care and can learn it if they're forced to, and 25% are people who hate change, hate technology, are technical morons, or whatever but they have to be taught because it's a function of their job. A firefighter needs to know how to operate a ladder truck, and they're trained on it and get good at it, but that doesn't mean that they can operate Linux or Windows or even iOS, but they have to for their job anyways, and if you're giving them software you need to train them.

    37. Re: Idiocy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All I see is city of Munich received large check from Microsoft along with 10 years of free software licenses.

    38. Re:Idiocy. by SivDotnet · · Score: 2

      Precisely; and this is the major issue trying to get "free" operating systems into business, it's not free in the end because you have to fork out a fortune in training to get people used to another system. It can be done but the brave souls who try to get Linux adopted seem to ignore this very real cost and also the extra cost of getting Linux admins who are rare compared to Windows Admins and thus demand much higher salaries which again adds more to the bottom line.

      This is why Windows 8 never got into business as the cost of training the new paradigm was too great!

      Siv

      --
      Martley, Near Worcester UK.
    39. Re: Idiocy. by ultranova · · Score: 2

      You need something installed, put in a ticket with a justification. You don't need War and Peace, just a blurb on how the software relates to your job.

      If you can't do that, you don't need it and most certainly do not need to be able software at will.

      And after you've wasted enough time writing those tickets and waiting for answers, you just say "screw it" and use whatever tools are at hand, whether they're a good fit or not. Because if you don't get your job done, you'll get fired. And so we end up with Excel databases and other clever repurposings of existing technology.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  2. Tell the old dogs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    that they simply have to learn a new trick. Switching back to Windows because some old geezer can't find the right icon is ridiculous.

    1. Re:Tell the old dogs by JSG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My wife has no idea she is using Arch Linux and KDE in the main on her laptop. It just works. She browses the web, Facebook and dodgy Flash games, YouTube etc etc, emails via our corp Exchange (I own the company), and so on. Printing just works as does the webcam, bluetooth, touchpad and all the rest.

      I replaced the laptop with another in about 60 mins after cloning the old HD to the new one, most of that was spent getting the discs out into a cloner. I had to fiddle with one driver (Broadcom WiFi bollocks).

      I update it via ssh every now and then and suggest a reboot eventually when she fancies it. I have locked the widgets and embiggened some of them so they are always where they should be and easy to find.

      No computer OS is just plain sailing, Windows, Linux, *BSD, OSX or whatever. They all have sharp edges somewhere.

    2. Re:Tell the old dogs by MagickalMyst · · Score: 3, Informative

      "...a hobbyist OS that is so difficult to use...It's 10x more difficult to do even the simplest task.."

      Absolute horseshit!

      Linux is not difficult to use; especially if someone else - like an administrator - installs and configures it for you.

      People are not born with knowledge of any OS; whether it be Windows, IOS, OS/2, or whatever. Point and click is how we use most modern operating systems, and learning the program menu and what icons to click on is trivial. Most people can be taught this in under an hour. (left click =action; right click=options. Double-click to run. It isn't exactly rocket science.) One must assume that employees were given a training session before/during/after the migration.

      If a user wants to run a program such as Skype, for example, and still does not know how to use the mouse to double-click on the little Skype icon (exactly the same as in Windows), then they have no business even using a computer in the first place.

      "...is so difficult to use its market share is a mere rounding error."

      Really? You have proof, I assume. Do tell.

      --
      Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
    3. Re:Tell the old dogs by rcoxdav · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That may be true, but how well would she be able to use it without someone like you to smooth out the rough edges?

    4. Re:Tell the old dogs by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 3, Informative

      >> Linux market share is a mere rounding error

      It's at 1.7% as of last year. Compared to Windows' 85.5% share (about 50x more), the author's quip about Linux market share being a rounding error is correct.
      https://www.phoronix.com/scan....
      (Several other similar studies are also mentioned.)

  3. We don't no stinkin' planning department... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Throwing Linux on the PCs and letting users figure it out isn't a proven strategy.

    1. Re:We don't no stinkin' planning department... by captnjohnny1618 · · Score: 2

      In fact, I'd say the only thing proven about it is the likelihood of failure! We have TONS of evidence supporting that.

    2. Re:We don't no stinkin' planning department... by JazzLad · · Score: 2

      Wouldn't a Linux geek use /. (rather than \.)?

      :)

      --
      "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
  4. Translations by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The councilors from Munich's conservative CSU party have called the operating system installed on their laptops "cumbersome to use" and "of very limited use.

    Translation: We don't want to be bothered learning anything new and it doesn't have solitaire on it.

    "There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use,"

    Translation: We have no idea what we are talking about, can't be bothered to ask any questions and only want to use what we are already familiar with.

    Another complaint from councilors is that "the lack of user permissions makes them of limited use."

    Translation: We want to be able to download whatever malware infested screensaver or porn we feel like.

    1. Re:Translations by wvmarle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use,"

      Translation: We have no idea what we are talking about, can't be bothered to ask any questions and only want to use what we are already familiar with.

      Wrong translation. This should be: "those that install the systems have no idea what they're doing", as such software should be pre-installed on any system and be ready for use. Of course I'm taking the complaint at face value here, and the complaint is that standard productivity software has not been pre-installed. To ease transition, they may even consider using the default Windows icon for Word on the OpenOffice/LibreOffice launcher and so. Skype has a Linux version so that's even more of a no-brainer, it should be pre-installed or made dead easy to install if licensing prevents pre-installing it.

    2. Re:Translations by LordLimecat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Translation: "Linux is free" often does not factor in real-world retraining and retooling costs.

      Want to push OpenOffice / Linux as cheaper alternatives? Wonderful. Just dont pretend that theyre actually free when it comes to use in a business, especially with folks used to a different system.

    3. Re:Translations by khasim · · Score: 2

      All systems require support.

      No one is saying that installing Linux means that you do not have to pay for any of the standard costs associated with a system.

      And remember that the opposition NEEDS to find a cause to champion that is contrary to the current system. Otherwise they aren't the opposition.

      Whether or not their complaints are valid is irrelevant. That's how politics works.

    4. Re:Translations by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      Spend less on licensing, spend way more on IT, training, custom programming, etc.

    5. Re:Translations by LichtSpektren · · Score: 2

      Translation: "Linux is free" often does not factor in real-world retraining and retooling costs.

      Want to push OpenOffice / Linux as cheaper alternatives? Wonderful. Just dont pretend that theyre actually free when it comes to use in a business, especially with folks used to a different system.

      Sure, it costs a bit to train somebody to use Unix and LibreOffice. Of course, that training is basically permanent, because the IT administration can keep them on the same user interfaces forever. Contrast this to MSOffice and Windows, whose shitty and random UI rollercoasters (Ribbon & Metro being the prime offenders) have probably cost the world tens of millions of dollars in retraining.

    6. Re: Translations by buchanmilne · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As far as I remember, their transition strategy started with deploying OpenOffice and Firefox on all Windows machines and making them the default, then removing MS Office a few months later, then switching the OS a year later while keeping most applications the same.

      IOW it is almost impossible that the users didn't have a word processor available or know how to use it, or even if it was the case, thus wasn't as a result of the OS change.

      Not having Skype may be due to policy (which would apply regardless of OS), in favour of other privacy-respecting IM platform.

    7. Re:Translations by jtownatpunk.net · · Score: 2

      The software probably is pre-installed and they don't know it because they skipped the training sessions that were offered and didn't even read the memo that listed the linux equivalent and showed which icons to click.

      If I had a dollar for every time someone emailed me to tell me that email wasn't working, I could have retired even sooner.

    8. Re:Translations by parkinglot777 · · Score: 2

      Of course I'm taking the complaint at face value here, and the complaint is that standard productivity software has not been pre-installed.

      From googling, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... is about the software they have. Down around Linux-Client section, it said that the OS is actually Ubuntu 12.04 which has OpenOffice, gedit (text editor with GUI), Firefox (Internet Browser), etc., installed by DEFAULT (these software come with the OS). However Skype must be installed manually.

      To ease transition, they may even consider using the default Windows icon for Word on the OpenOffice/LibreOffice launcher and so. ...

      Are you kidding me? Anyway, I am not sure if they (OpenOffice) could actual use MS Office icon in their software. It could easily be an IP issue. Besides would you want to make other people think that your software is someone else software? You implement your own software, remember?

      I have been using Ubuntu since ver. 7.04 and now is 14.04 (there is 15.04 but I don't upgrade my OS). At the same time, I still have to work with Window boxes. I can somewhat see why these people think that Linux is more difficult to use. The GUI is a bit different, how to get to/search for certain software is also different. There is no "Start" button in Linux. There is no drive C:, D:, etc, in Linux, but it is all directory (and could be from a mounted storage). CD-Rom is auto-mounted and would appear when a disc is inserted in Linux (no permanent icon needed as in Windows). Some software even have options in different places in Linux (i.e. Firefox in Windows has 'Options' under 'Tool' menu, but in Linux the option becomes 'Preferences' and is under 'Edit').

      For some people, it is not easy to switch from one GUI platform (including many other minor changes) to another. These people may either not be trained enough or not want to move out of their comfort zone and learn new GUI.

    9. Re:Translations by bhcompy · · Score: 2

      A good support staff of *nix personnel costs a lot more than a good support staff of Windows personnel. And holding on to that staff is even harder. It's not just about dollar cost, it's about productivity cost. *nix admins are not plug and play like Windows admins are. You lose one of those admins and you're waiting months rather than days to find a candidate you consider qualified, and God forbid something bad happens in the meantime.

    10. Re: Translations by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      Not having Skype may be due to policy (which would apply regardless of OS), in favour of other privacy-respecting IM platform.

      On one hand the German government is very angry about all the NSA spying on their officials. Microsoft is *very* clear that Skype has hooks for the NSA (thank you, fellows). And yet the German officials can't get enough of their Skype.

      Blame the Germans for electing these idiots.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  5. Normal people have no way to know that by Schezar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Normal people don't know what applications are or how to install them. They click blindly, like newborn infants, until Microsoft Word appears, and then they express whatever it is in them that drove them to this extreme. Outlook is a gateway into a magical world of 576,442 unread emails and 500,333 unsent drafts. The "fix it" button on the front of the machine usually works, but sometimes doesn't. Their grandson tells them to stop hitting that button, but he's into voodoo and something called Mimecraft, so what does he know?

    --
    GeekNights!
    Late Night Radio for Geeks!
    1. Re:Normal people have no way to know that by peragrin · · Score: 2

      I am sad to say my coworkers outlook boxes are just like that. They are amazed I have zero unread emails and like 4 emails in my inbox. Then I expand the folders to reveal hundreds of folders with 500 MB from just the last six months.

      The thing is I just file things when I am done with them for future referencing. I can find things quickly just by knowing where to look. The seem arch box only helps if you have lots of details and time to go through the false positives.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
  6. How are the configured? by Noble713 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As TFS states, all that stuff should be readily available in Linux/Ubuntu. If users complain about the lack of a text editor in all likelihood the training program for transitioning Windows users is mediocre (and the users themselves are stuck in their ways and won't adapt easily). If the systems are being issued to users with no day-to-day office functionality, that's a problem with their IT department dropping the ball setup-wise. That's not a failure of the operating system itself.

  7. Beautiful Theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The people of Munich are obviously wrong, and need to be replaced.

    1. Re:Beautiful Theory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      That's *GNU/Munich*, you insensitive clod!

  8. Are they running Windows 8? by jfbilodeau · · Score: 4, Funny

    If they can't find anything on their laptop, could it be they are actually running Windows 8? It's the only mainstream desktop environment that I know of that makes it obtuse to find anything.

    --
    Goodbye Slashdot. You've changed.
    1. Re:Are they running Windows 8? by 0123456 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      because hitting the windows key and typing out what you want to do is just so cumbersome.

      Hint: there's a reason it's called a GRAPHICAL User Interface. If I wanted to have to type commands, I'd use a real shell.

      Microsoft added that crap when Search was the New Shiny, and everything had to have Search to compete with Google.

      Then they added a tablet interface when the iPad was the New Shiny, and everything had to support touchscreens to compete with Apple.

      Maybe they should just try building a good desktop OS with a GRAPHICAL User Interface.

  9. Dear Slashdot editors by LichtSpektren · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know it is ubiquitous in journalism to abbreviate e.g. "two senior members of the city's IT committee" to "Munich", but it is not correct, and the imprecision of such phrases can wildly skew the impression that a reader gets versus the facts.

    Examine the headline: "City of Munich Struggling With Basic Linux Functionality". Without any sort of clarifying modifier to "City of Munich", one is liable to take this to mean a significant portion of the populace (millions of people), when in fact the subject aforementioned is really a small group of sabre-rattlers.

  10. Re:Easy solution: by Lisias · · Score: 2

    Where I wrote "privacy", please read "piracy".

    But given the present status quo on Windows 10, the present phrase will fits too. =P

    --
    Lisias@Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Local.Virgo.Universe.org
  11. "There are no programs for text editing" by Solandri · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sure there are! You have your choice of vi or emacs. :)

  12. Maybe they should hire qualified Linux experts by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    instead of trying to do it on the cheap.

    Yes, that's exactly what I said.

    You save the money on the license fees, not the support cost.

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:Maybe they should hire qualified Linux experts by LichtSpektren · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By all metrics, LiMux has gone extraordinary well for Munich. The complainers are a bunch of politicians being paid off by Microsoft; note how there's no actual bureaucrats expressing dissatisfaction with it.

  13. wtf? by znrt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unter anderem können keinerlei Programme
    (Textbearbeitungsprogramme, Skype, Office, etc.) selbst nach installiert werden, welches
    einen normalen Gebrauch verhindert

    no text processing? no skype? wtf? LiMux must be the worst distro ever.

    or it could be that this is the worst fud ever.

    1. Re:wtf? by ve3oat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      For some reason, "etc" appears as "etc', rather than "usw".

  14. There is some Background ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Going to Linux was a big politcal thing (pushed by a social democratic administration) in Munich, being thoroughly planned project for over 10 years. Goal: reduce license costs, increase independence. Losing Munich to a self hosting project did cost Microsoft a lot, including prestige. They are very committed to see it fail.
    Now, they recently moved their German HQ from rural Munich into the center (read: into central Munichs tax borders). And they have unleashed all lobbying power they could get hold on.
    These two Politicians from the letter are from the CSU, that is Bavarias quasi-monarchistic conservative big-industry corruption-laden redneck shithead party, that is in lead of whole Bavaria - except Munich, which means, they are in opposition.
    Now, review that case again ...

  15. Re:ORLY? by gQuigs · · Score: 3, Informative

    I was curious...

    If you open the PDF and to to properties it says:
    Producer: OpenOffice.org 3.2
    Creator: Writer

    Now that is a very old version of OpenOffice... and most linux distros have switched to LibreOffice at this point. Does seem like they could use an update...

  16. Re: Don't light your torches just yet... by r_a_trip · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Munich has had this system since 2004. I refuse to believe that Munich could have survived this long on the system if it really was like in TFS.

    --
    # touch universe # chmod +rwx universe # ./universe
  17. Re: Why would anyone roll out any technology... by buchanmilne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They didn't.

    This is users complaining about change, not about poorly planned / executed change.

    You always get these types, regardless of the type of change ( upgrade, change of vendors etc.), because they don't care about business objectives or anyone /anything besides "what they are used to", regardless of the effort that was put in to prepare them for the change.

  18. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  19. Linux is great! by xenotransplant · · Score: 2

    It really is awesome. I suck at using it though, but I have a blast learning the ins and outs of a new system. I would be rightly pissed if someone plopped a new linux system in place of my current windows work mess without training.