City of Munich Struggling With Basic Linux Functionality

jones_supa writes: Just like the city planned a year ago, Munich is still calling for a switch back to Windows from LiMux, their Ubuntu derivative. The councilors from Munich's conservative CSU party have called the operating system installed on their laptops "cumbersome to use" and "of very limited use." The letter from the two senior members of the city's IT committee (PDF in German) asks the mayor to consider removing the Linux-based OS and to install Windows and Office. "There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use," the letter argues. Another complaint from councilors is that "the lack of user permissions makes them of limited use." These kind of arguments raise eyebrows, as all that functionality is certainly found on Linux.

Comments

Idiocy.

[Shaman]

This is computer neophytes telling IT how things work.

Like the pigs running the farm. Like the inmates running the asylum.

Like councillors up to their ears in that Microsoft bribe money.

Re:Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

computer neophytes telling IT

Because the purpose of the end users is to serve the needs of the I.T. department, and not the other way around.

Re:Idiocy.

[TWX]

Computer neophytes are the reason that the IT department exists in the first place. IT's sole role is support. I don't care if it's a $200 netbook or a $200,000 iSeries financial server, computers are a means, not an end. All of us in IT have a job because we facilitate that means for people that don't know how to do it themselves, regardless of the reason why they don't know how.

If the IT department for Munich either failed to train users how to use their equipment (like how to find a simple GUI text editor like Mousepad) or failed to install such software it's not the users' faults that they're upset. I use vi, but I don't expect Bärbel to get escape-shift-colon-w-filename-enter to save her file, or to understand the differences between CR-LF and UNIX-style file structures.

I also wonder how good of a job they did keeping the users' workstations up-to-date. That's a huge problem in IT even on systems that were designed from the outset for it.

Re:Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Tossing Linux at end users that can barely use Windows or OS X and expecting the roll out to be successful is asking a lot. Generally if it is not something they use at home they will need good training.

Re: Idiocy.

[MBGMorden]

The summary is a bit off. They are complaining that users cannot install these applications on their own, not that they do not exist.

Which would also be puzzling, as in any normal corporate setup users can't install software on their own Windows machines either.

Re:Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

You're not wrong. IT does not dictate this. IT provides solutions to the requirements of the end users. Now, those requirements could be met in linux, but that's a different story.

Re: Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

Eh, other than your basic phone answering desk jockeys, most corporate strategies give a good deal of rights to the end users, or at least give them VMs where they have complete administrative access. There are not enough IT people around to deal with all of the requests. If I need to install Wireshark to troubleshoot a server/client issue when I'm site with a customer I don't have time to wait for IT to remote into my machine and install the "approved" software for the purpose.

Re:Idiocy.

[drinkypoo]

Computer neophytes are the reason that the IT department exists in the first place. IT's sole role is support.

Wrong. IT's role is to make things work. Support is part of that, but it's not the whole job. Congratulations, you don't understand IT. You must be ready to be a CEO!

I don't care if it's a $200 netbook or a $200,000 iSeries financial server, computers are a means, not an end.

That's right. Very good. But the users are not absolved of responsibility.

IT's job is to enable work. It's not to hold hands, except where necessary. But workers who need their hands held can be replaced... except in government where it's difficult to fire even those people who clearly deserve it.

Re:Idiocy.

[MightyMartian]

This has been a process that has been ongoing since the earliest days of general use computers.

I recall when my office moved from Wordperfect 5 to the first Windows version pf MS-Word. It was a fucking nightmare. Despite the obvious advantages WYSIWYG, there were months worth of bitching and moaning, and a few people who pretty much convinced management to let them keep using Wordperfect in a DOS window.

What it turns out people needed was training. Even a two or three sessions to familiarize people with the interface, and they had at least the rudiments down. I think some of the older staff never got it fully, but as Wordperfect faded into oblivion, they either made do as best they could.

The complaints being reported here suggest that where Munich has fallen down is in training. People literally have no idea how to use their computers.

Re: Idiocy.

[postbigbang]

They can buy their own machines, software, and add-ins if they need it. Not one of them is too poor to do so. Instead, this is all about politicking because there's not a shred of fact in the letter sent.

Takes all of about two minutes to show how to use the Linux payload. And if Skype isn't on the approved software payload.... maybe there's a reason for that.

My opinion of the Munich complainers reverses what I thought about the project overall; someone didn't take the time to see this one coming, and that's a sign of immaturity. Should the mayor decide to switch to Windows, he further compounds the problem by rejecting years of planning, conversion, and implementation.

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, not at all. The desktop is heavily locked down in EVERY corporate area I've ever worked in.

And the claim that it;s not available is merely proof that the IT leads have NO FUCKING CLUE WHATSOEVER. But HAVE been bought.

Re:Idiocy.

[TWX]

So, what about making things work isn't support, at least in the context of making things work for a company whose primary mission isn't itself doing IT work for the rest of the world?

'cause where I work, technology isn't the end, it's merely a means. A very important, very expensive, very prominent means, but if another better means beyond technology-as-we-know-it came along they'd drop the IT department like a bad penny.

Re:Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no way to met the requirement when they change all the time because some porn/gabling/toy software/site will not install/work properly.

All the 'basic functionally' they claim to need are will know to be found in ubuntu and other distributions. These peoples are lazy liars, or corrupted liars that want microsoft money.

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

"You're not wrong. IT does not dictate this. IT provides solutions to the requirements of the end users. Now, those requirements could be met in linux, but that's a different story."

Still wrong. IT provides solutions to business requirements subject to complying with governance policies.

While Skype is available for Windows, that doesn't mean that all business environments with Windows client devices allow/install Skype (they might have a different IM platform instead which allows them to comply with regulations that Skype may not comply with).

  To some extent it sounds like the complainers are impacted more by policies that capabilities of Linux, but it's easier to complain about a technical aspect than a policy their management is accountable for.

Re:Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

The end users need to tell IT what their needs are and then leave it to the IT department to determine how to meet those needs. That goes a little something like this:

Users: "We need to edit documents, both plaintext and formatted ones, and use voice/video chat."
IT: OK. Here's Linux with GEdit, LibreOffice, and Skype For Linux (yes, that really exists).

It is not OK for those users to then piss and moan that they can't do their jobs with this software when it is readily apparent that this software is designed specifically for them to do those jobs. Yes, they're "professionals" (in government, that's stretching it a bit) and know how to do their jobs (again, within a margin of error). But the IT people are also professionals (this time without the air-quotes), and they also know how to do their own jobs (within a much smaller margin of error). Deal with it.

Re:Idiocy.

[ArsenneLupin]

But workers who need their hands held can be replaced... except in government where it's difficult to fire even those people who clearly deserve it.

Wrong. But like in any other workplace, workers can only be fired by their boss, not by mere coworkers. And the boss, in this case, is the citizens of Munich, and they make their hiring & firing decision on election day. Make sure these 2 councilmembers' ineptitude (or worse: bribability) is well-known so that the "boss" can make an informed decision the next time he is called to make one.

In the meantime, if these councilmembers let their laptop "age there unused", maybe they can be put to better use elsewhere? Just take them back, and hand them out to other workers who actually have a clue.

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

You must work for the same company I do. We have a huge group known as Engineering that does not fall under IT that absolutely does need to use such tools. Typical IT arrogance.

Re:Idiocy.

[pla]

Computer neophytes are the reason that the IT department exists in the first place.

No. IT needs to make sure the end users have the technology resources available to do their jobs, and to some degree, help users resolve unusual events in their computing environment. When the same user calls every single morning asking for a password reset, you don't blame IT - Their manager has a "Come to Jesus" chat, that they need to either catch on or move on.

IT doesn't exist to teach people basic computer skills, any more than the Accounting department exists to teach people basic math or Marketing helps people pick out their drapes to match their trim.


IT's sole role is support.

Yes, to a degree - IT supports the technology side of the user/computer equation.


If the IT department for Munich either failed to train users how to use their equipment

...Then they did their jobs, by not trying to pull double-duty in a domain of knowledge outside their expertise, ie, training. An organization that hires an engineer (not otherwise specializing in education) to do end-user training has already failed at a strategic level, before we even get to the level of users and computers.


I find it almost funny that we so often blame IT for its arrogance in thinking they can do anyone's job better - Then fault them for not doing someone else's job better.

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

You do know that Skype runs just fine natively on Linux. I agree with the rest of your argument though, either there are policies in place that lock the Linux machines down more securely than Windows, or the users just don't understand how to use "add software".

Re: Idiocy.

[Jaime2]

No environment I've ever been in gives the general users access to install software.

Everywhere I've worked I have been an admin of my computer. At most of the jobs, I could install the OS myself if I chose to do so. No, I'm not on the desktop or server teams. Yes, one of the companies was very big - 100 billion dollars big.

Re:Idiocy.

[TWX]

It's still the department's failure, even if it can be tied to the director of the department or to any staff whose job is to actually train. New systems that are radically different from old ones require training. Hell, we trained users when we switched from Netware to Active Directory, even though the differences only manifested if they selected advanced options to see that it.wasn't.context.anymore and was now an ADDOMAIN instead.

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Users shouldn't be adding software.

Re: Idiocy.

[David_Hart]

You must work for the same company I do. We have a huge group known as Engineering that does not fall under IT that absolutely does need to use such tools. Typical IT arrogance.

No, it's not IT arrogance, it's a generalization... Generalizations by their nature have exceptions to the rule.

The vast majority of users in a company that are not in IT do not need Wireshark or network analysis tools. However, there are companies that produce, engineer, and /or support electronics, software, etc. where these tools might come in handy to verify that the product is working correctly. Obviously, those users would be an exception to the rule.

With the move towards corporate web based applications, there is even less software that needs to be installed than in the past.

Re: Idiocy.

[avatar avatar]

When people spend years, or decades learning the basic working of a tool, then it changes, of course they'll get upset. MS users were no more "indoctrinated" to look for a start button than you are "indoctrinated" to turn a screw clockwise when you want it to go in.

Re:Idiocy.

[chuckugly]

I suspect you nailed it in one. They probably all know how to use either Mac or Win at home, many probably can use both, but are probably not familiar with Linux and are mostly casual users who just want to hit facebook and get some light office tasks done.

Re:Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

These peoples are lazy liars, or corrupted liars that want microsoft money.

Oh, so suddenly they can't be both lazy and corrupt? Nice false dichotomy there.

Re: Idiocy.

[jp10558]

No where I've worked (till I became IT) let me install software on my computer, or be an admin. I could use the software provided in very specific ways, or I would get it trouble.

It's far more common from what I've read on the net to have Windows locked down in a managed deployment at midsize and larger companies. Most companies don't have the allocated resources to have IT be the inside equivalent of the Geek Squad. Maybe where you've worked did.

What's more interesting to me is that most Linux software (if you know what you're doing) can be installed inside a user account, just like more and more Windows software is getting to be (Think Chrome), unless the computers have Applocker or SELinux or the like running. And most people don't do that because of the difficulty in creating all the rules.

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem in Munich is the same I have seen everywhere I have seen Linux introduced

The workers use their laptops for personal stuff besides work.

Often employees get Admin rights as part of their work requirements and installing games and other personal stuff like GPS software or specific hardware drivers is common.

All of that is fine and dandy on Windows because people is mostly familiar with Windows and any one can click next-next-next.

Often the IT department has to deal with their system cock-ups and continuous malware infestations. "Uuuh I dunno it broke"

When you give a Linux computer to people 99% of the time it is a work tool, and obviously the workers are not happy that they can not use their new flashy free laptop paid by the council with public money for personal use.

And that is all there is to the story.

Re:Idiocy.

[digsbo]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: 2014 will be the year of Linux on the Desktop.

Re:Idiocy.

[painandgreed]

So, what about making things work isn't support, at least in the context of making things work for a company whose primary mission isn't itself doing IT work for the rest of the world?

What we're really talking about here is training. I'll bet all that equivilent stuff of what they want is installed on the computers, but that's easy. Even putting icons on the desktop and telling the users which icon corresponds to what use they want. However, actual training in how to use those programs beyond open, save, close, is usually batted around from department to department as it requires trainers with specialized knowledge, lots of time to hand hold users, and usually at odd hours as the users still have work to do. Where I work, IT installs the programs, but training for common programs is pushed back to the department and they can use their budgets for trainers. IT installs Excel but they're not going to train the users how to create their spread sheets with functions and and macros. Training for in house programs usually goes to special people who only deal with those programs, or more often than not, is just undocumented knowledge taught from old workers to new ones as they are hired. For a new deployment like this, I wouldn't be surprised if someproject manager wasn't put in charge of training and either they dropped the ball, or more likely, the users just flat out don't want to learn anything outside of what they already know.

Re:Idiocy.

[TWX]

It depends on what they're using the computers for. This modern general-purpose computer is not the only model that we've had; we had text-based machines that only did specific things even if there was a very large selection of those specific things. We had early GUI machines that were set up much the same way; Windows 3.1 in particular was often very locked-down to the tasks that users actually needed. I sort of blame Windows 95 in that regard, it became a lot harder to restrict the functions of the computer. For some that meant being better for their jobs, but for others it has meant complaining about features that they don't really have any need to use anyway.

When I was in college we had an Xterm cluster running off an HPUX server with CDE as the windowmanager. It really didn't do a whole lot or present a whole lot of options to the users, but they xterms were still constantly in use because science and engineering students could do their work just fine and had less trouble with distractions. They did fewer things, but they did them better.

Re: Idiocy.

[goarilla]

Could be the "IT councellors" didn't think they needed the training and skipped it.

Re:Idiocy.

[TWX]

So, you're saying that it 'just works' that the user logs on to his laptop, his desktop, and his tablet, and all his data seems, from his perspective to magically be identical on all of these platforms? Because I can tell you, that a whole lot of under-the-hood action is happening with Active Directory, folder redirection, caching, and conflicting version resolution that someone had to initially set up.

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

You ever try to get around IT policy in a large organization by claiming you're an "exception"? Good luck with that. This is why large organizations fail when it comes to technology. IT loses its way and instead of assisting the workers they become the ultimate roadblock. Just read the comments in this story. It's mostly all condescending snark directed at the users.

Re: Idiocy.

[BellyJelly]

Errr no. We do not give our users any admin rights to install software, and specifically forbid it in our company procedures. If we let very user install whatever .exe they felt like clicking, our company network would be ass fucked to a gaping mess within days......

Re: Idiocy.

[tnk1]

This does sound like a policy fail, or an IT department that doesn't know how to work with this OS.

Of course, if this change was politically motivated and directed from above, that could certainly catch an IT department flat footed. Our IT department gets directives all the time to switch to this or that IM or conferencing app because we're suddenly doing business with someone who competes with MS, and they don't want to see Skype on our machines when their stuff could be there. Not much they can do about the boxes running Windows, however. That would be a bridge too far.

If it was the IT department itself in favor of such a change, and yet there are basic functionality failures, then I do have to wonder if they are actually competent or if they fully understood what they were getting into.

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

When a corporation, government or municipality gives a Windows PC to their workers and gives the workers admin access they end with malware all over the place.

Re:Idiocy.

[Aighearach]

This is computer neophytes telling IT how things work.

Like the pigs running the farm. Like the inmates running the asylum.

Like councillors up to their ears in that Microsoft bribe money.

I really doubt you need to bribe "conservatives" for them to know to hate that lefty "free public infrastructure" software and support The Established For-Profit Company.

Re:Idiocy.

[Aighearach]

I just wanted to toss this in here, my wife doesn't know the difference between the words "internet" and "web browser," but she has no trouble at all using Skype on linux. If you don't know what is under the hood, it is all the same; you click the icon, the application opens, and then the buttons are from the application not the OS.

She knows we're not using windows, but she doesn't know what that means; but she can still use it exactly the same. And if she plugs in a USB drive from work, opens LibreOffice, works on a spreadsheet... and calls it "excel," it doesn't matter and it still works!

This is how it is supposed to be. Users who are not blacksmiths should not worry about the metal used for their plow, but instead they should worry if it can indeed plow the fields they have.

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

Users shouldn't be adding software.

That's so 1990.

Re: Idiocy.

[Aighearach]

Right, because if the company is an exception (makes electronics, is an engineering firm, has a real engineering department, etc) then the employee who needs that access isn't an exception, and those tools are already allowed.

There seems to be a lot of handwaving asserting that "IT" is exclusively synonymous with BOFH, but it just isn't so. The BOFH is the exception, and most companies have people with rather complete knowledge of the business' practices creating the list of what software is needed.

And anything actually needed that is mistakenly excluded will quickly get approved, because a project manager is allowed to talk directly to an IT manager. The reason that it requires "good luck" to "claim you're an exception" is that in this scenario, you're asking for something your own supervisor already looked at and reminded you that you don't need it, and you're trying to get special approval. Or, you asked your supervisor and they decided to smack you with the general policy and deny that they could get an approval in order to passive-aggressively get you to stop asking for things.

My experience as an admin tells me, workers outside of software development needs a special thing installed. Developers have unrestricted workstations, but will require constant admin attention to set up servers, and having dev-ops specialists will really improve this. Generally, even trained developers will not ask for the combination of technologies that meets the existing security requirements; they will ask for whatever the default (or personal preference) setup is, instead of the slightly harder way of doing things that is more secure.

Outside of developers, if the project managers aren't asking for it to be approved for the whole team, then it isn't needed by any of them and somebody just wants to Be Exceptional. And if they're asking for controls to be removed, they should probably be audited to see if they're actually working at work, or gambling/watching pr0n.

Re: Idiocy.

[smooth wombat]

No, it's good security. Users do not need to have admin privileges so they can install every piece of crapware on a machine which isn't theirs or, if it is, poses a security risk to everyone else on the network.

Locking users down is good IT policy and fortunately, where I work, it is followed. You need something installed, put in a ticket with a justification. You don't need War and Peace, just a blurb on how the software relates to your job.

If you can't do that, you don't need it and most certainly do not need to be able software at will.

Re: Idiocy.

[GargamelSpaceman]

What if a user wants to do their job better and is searching the internet for a better tool? They find it and install it.

Except they can't because their machine was locked down.

Re:Idiocy.

[Aighearach]

It could also be that the complainers helped to set the budget, and are the source of the departmental lack of training. That should be the default assumption when dealing with any sort of "council," "committee," or "board."

Re:Idiocy.

[Aighearach]

I can verify that it was indeed the latest Year of Linux on the Desktop. We've got over 2 decades and running! I predict this year will also conclude with Linux still working as a desktop. Paradigm shifters will never defeat us! The Desktop Paradigm Lives! Desktop 4-ever!

There is no way I am going back to having one terminal on the screen at a time. Desktop GUI computing lets me fit half a dozen xterms onto the screen at once. It is Heaven.

Re: Idiocy.

[snowsnoot]

I understand your concerns however I feel we need to find a way to get past this mentality for productivity's sake. What about the idea of putting the responsibility of security in the hands of the end user, through policies, training, certification prior to being allowed to bring their device onto the network and disciplinary measures for those who fail to comply? BYO end user devices could flourish instead of every end user being expected to conform to the corporate OS image and be just as productive as the guy next to him. A good intrusion detection strategy and mandatory monitoring and control software installed on the devices? I know many will scoff at the idea but really, the user is the problem, not the permissions. Why don't we put the onus on the end user instead?

Re: Idiocy.

[Bert64]

That's the problem, windows is usually configured in a horrendously insecure fashion such that people are able to run their own software...
Even if you don't have admin privileges, you can still usually install stuff locally. Sure there are ways to prevent this, but they are rarely configured properly. Linux is much easier to configure in such a way so as to prevent users from introducing their own programs.

Re:Idiocy.

[Yunzil]

Sure, keep insulting the people telling you that Linux just might have a problem or two. That'll surely convince them of the error of their ways.

Re: Idiocy.

[Aaden42]

Have you ever in your life met an actual end user? What you're asking for is beyond the vast majority of end users. Further, most of them if told explicitly, "You will be responsible for bad things that happen on your computer as a result of your actions," will balk and refuse to accept that claiming that's IT's job (which is true: It is.)

They want all the power and none of the responsibility. Indeed, the user is the problem, but the user is not capable of understanding the problem they cause. It's far more complex than any of them have any interest in learning. They rely on IT to manage systems and keep them running. The way that IT does that is by configuring a platform that meets their needs and locking it down so they can't screw it up.

Re: Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

My customers pay to have me on site, by the hour, including my travel costs, my per diem, etc. I work for a massive multinational. Often, I need access to tools that I do not have preinstalled on my machine. Because I have admin access, I don't need you following me around as my lackey installing all of the random shit I need when I need it. If I did, I'd be wasting my customer's time, money, etc because it would take days for you to process through your queue to find and install the software I need and then I'd have to charge them extra for the extra time I'm spending on site, and then I'm going to the Director of IT and the Director of Implementation and letting them know that this cost overrun is coming out of the IT budget because I was not provided with the tools I needed on a timely basis and the customer is disputing the charges. Multiply this by a thousand people with a few thousand projects and you're broke rather quickly.

Re: Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

I work for a massive multinational. The vast majority of our end users have admin access because it is necessary. Otherwise we'd have more IT personnel than consultants, analysts, and customer support staff. And that costs more than reformatting a computer that someone fucked up.

Re:Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

So why didn't you train them on it? You change their world and you're responsible for educating them

Re: Idiocy.

[Aaden42]

I work for a large-ish state.gov. Somebody asks for a piece of software and makes a reasonable case as to why they need it to do work (or at least how it would help them work more effectively), and they get the exception. That's assuming the software isn't malware, privacy violating, pirated, etc. Default policy with exceptions granted on a per-case basis works just fine.

That's not to say there aren't complaints. No, your fish screensaver (that chews CPU all day long and may or may not actually be mining Bitcoin) isn't something you need to do work nor that will help you work more effectively. That's denied. "101 Favorite Solitaire?" Nope. Sorry...

Be a reasonable human being to your sysadmins, make a legitimate request with a clear justification, and everything works out fine. Throw a tantrum and complain about how it's broken and you can't do anything, and your call will be answered in the order it was *DIAL TONE*.

Re: Idiocy.

[chill]

because the end users are incapable of understanding that the consequences of their poor decisions extended to much further than the own tools and software that they installed. Security violations of their own personal phone or device, because of a BYOD policy, can impact the entire environment. There are both security and legal consequences of this type of negligence.

one self-important executive who doesn't think the rules do not apply to them, or that they are somehow smarter than security, can bring down the entire company.

  the ability to make a risk decision for the entire enterprise is a difficult task to put on an individual end user who doesn't have the knowledge or visibility.

Re: Idiocy.

[Dutch Gun]

It depends on the environment. If it's a company that primarily has expert users by definition (for instance, a software development house), then users typically have admin rights. I'm in videogame development, and typically *every* user in the company has full admin rights - that means programmers, artists, game designers, sound designers, writers, QA, management, etc. A whitelist policy simply wouldn't be practical, because tools change all the time.

Re: Idiocy.

[chill]

If I need to install Wireshark to troubleshoot a server/client issue when I'm site with a customer...

That comment right there tells me you have no experience with this issue. Network engineers are not the people they are worried about. it is the lawyers, accountants and other tech semi-literates that wreak havoc with unfettered admin rights.

for the most part you're installing tools, while those people will install a little of everything on a whim. these are the people that end up with spyware, viruses and 12-different browser toolbars.

Re:Idiocy.

[behrooz0az]

Users don't like change, and they'll bitch whenever it happens. Doesn't matter the vendor.

Story of my life. someone mod this up.

Re:Idiocy.

[Tom]

The complaints being reported here suggest that where Munich has fallen down is in training. People literally have no idea how to use their computers.

The people writing this complaint are from the CSU. That is our equivalent of the worst part of the republican party. In ideology and stupidity. They don't want to understand how to use their computers, because computers are witchcraft.

Re: Idiocy.

[Harlequin80]

Are you saying that you don't use a standard set of tools to do your job? That everytime you go to a new site you have to install something new, that will never ever be used again and then uninstall it at the end of the job?

Honestly I find that really hard to understand. I get it that it may be the first time you go to a job you don't have a particular thing installed, but the 2nd, 3rd, 4th time? Or are you never going to repeat customers?

Finally if it is the case that your machine requires admin access because of all the shit you have to install with your job and there is no way around it, your machine should be treated as hostile. Your laptop should be excluded from accessing the internal networks of your employer and only allowed access via something like citrix.

Re:Idiocy.

[Narcocide]

He probably doesn't want that type of responsibility. I'd do it in a heartbeat though, and at bargain rates, but I assume that if the real thing holding back their willingness/ability to use Linux right was the lack of just one competent sysadmin willing to spend a few weeks on training staff how to do things in Linux that they take for granted having already learned in Windows then they would have hired such a person long, long ago - before the Linux deployment. No, whatever the real reasons, that is clearly just an excuse. This whole orchestration probably has something to do with forcing the government's hand on IT spending, and may have been actually the plan all along before the initial switch to Linux. The fact that the claims are absurd and googleably false and sound more like first-week helpdesk interns' forced opinions about Linux without any training or accountability than the analysis of actually experienced IT staff is the proof something more is going on here we're not being told about.

Re: Idiocy.

[Harlequin80]

Block this, a million times block this. This is the fastest way to have your machines falling over.

You are in a corporate environment where software is purchased and licensed. What are you going to download from the internet that can do your job better, that is free, legal for you to use, and not completely covered in stuff that will bork your machine?

Taking out of it the machines falling over and crap getting into your network. As a general rule you do not want your employees doing things in multiple different ways. It makes quality control almost impossible, training harder, makes machines unique to users and a whole host of other issues. If there is an issue with the software an employee has and it is limiting their productivity then it needs to go through the process determining where the problem is and what is the solution. If there is a solution that improves productivity that solution will then be rolled out to all relevant employees.

Re:Idiocy.

[AmiMoJo]

Years ago in a previous life I built/reinstalled some computers for customers. We used to install Open Office because most people thought it was part of Windows and couldn't comprehend that Microsoft wanted charge them hundreds of pounds for software that their work/school/mate's dodgy warez copy provided on every other PC they had ever used.

People were still confused and complained, until we started renaming the program shortcuts to Word, Excel and PowerPoint. Just the icons on the start menu, nothing else.

Re:Idiocy.

[Harlequin80]

My office is completely based on Linux and all the people working there use their machines for basic word processing and internet type activities. When someone new starts they get a little shocked by the login screen not being windows, and after asking where the internet button is and being shown the firefox button they are pretty much away.

None of them have any idea what is happening under the hood and they simply don't care. After a few weeks someone will show them virtual desktops and it will be a whole round of amazement. I've even given linux to my mother in law and she has been happy (as much as it is physically possible for her to be happy of course :P)

Re: Idiocy.

[Narcocide]

In most large IT departments of government organizations and multinationals/mega-corps, it is not the user's job to try to do their job better in this fashion. It is their job to do their job how they are told, and using the tools that were pre-approved by the people whose job it is.

Re: Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

I'm not a network engineer. I'm an industry grunt implementation consultant who gets stuck doing everything for a customer because the customer can't figure out why our software won't print or why this one workstation doesn't communicate with the server etc etc. I AM an end user. My employer has tens of thousands of us. We're all end users. Like I said, other than desk jockeys

Re: Idiocy.

[AmiMoJo]

A friend once told me about a place where they decided it would be the user's responsibility if bad things happened, like viruses and malware. The company provided anti-virus software, but of course it wasn't bullet proof and they told their staff to be careful.

One day my friend tried to send someone working there a PDF as an attachment via email. A while later she got an email back saying that the staff there don't open attachments any more (too risky) so please fax it through. They faxed her an annotated copy back and she had to fill in the form on her computer herself.

Re: Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

Let's just talk customer access. Basic stuff. For one customer, I use a Cisco AnyConnect. For another customer I use Cisco VPN Client. For another customer I use Juniper Junos Pulse. etc. All of these software packages require administrative access. Each customer maintains this, uses their own specific version of the software, etc. My company doesn't keep a catalog of every VPN client and every version of every VPN client because it's not feasible to keep that catalog or preload that catalog on everyone's machine.

Now, let's talk remote connectivity. Basic stuff again. GoToMeeting, GoToAssist, Skype, Bomgar, Lync, Livemeeting, etc. More software that requires administrative access. These can somewhat be preloaded, but not all of these are cloud managed, so you deal with versioning again, and for ones that are downloaded every time you execute, you need to be able to run them 100% of the time or every single conference call requires administrative override.

Now, let's talk about what happens when I go onsite with a customer. This customer requires reports written in JETT, this customer requires reports written in CR11.5, this one in CR9, this one uses an Access database, this one uses Sybase SQLAnywhere 9, this one uses Reality/PICK, etc etc etc. All of these require different tools to connect, write reports, etc.

I don't control what my customers do, I make my employer's software run in their environment. Some customers may use the same software, some don't. A lot of the time I'm not even scheduled to be somewhere until the Friday before the Monday they expect me to be onsite on Monday, so it's not like I can pull a customer folder and say "here IT guy, install all this for me, I hope it's up to date from the last time we were there 2 years ago, but probably not".

Re: Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

Secondarily, the only customer that provides you with everything is the US Government, and that's because they assign you a laptop with everything you need for your job. So I don't need my laptop, and I don't need administrative access on their laptop, because every tool that's necessary for the job is provided to me. Of course, your average, or even your uncommon customer, does not provide you with this.

Re:Idiocy.

[budgenator]

What's to educate? need a text editor, there is always notepad, in Ubuntu, when wine is installed it's just like in Windows. Oh wait maybe they are chocking on single clicking an icon instead of double clicking. Seriously, If you have any issues using Ubuntu that Aren't solved by "use LibreOffice instead of Microsoft Office" or click the "K" instead of "Start" or "Use Muon to install the software you want", you should just step away from the computer, any computer. You know if they think going from Windows XP to Ubuntu is a culture shock, wait until they see windows 8.1!

Re: Idiocy.

[Harlequin80]

Fair enough. In this case you system should be treated as hostile when you come back into the office. It doesn't have to effect you even in the office, it just means the network you are on should be quarantined from anything that may be sensitive.

Also it sounds like your role is IT focussed to at least a degree. If you are on site making your employers software work on other peoples system you must be operating in a role of some IT trust. This is not the same requirements as for people who have no idea how computers really work.

IT security needs to be build around usage cases and people need to be able to do their jobs. But giving admin access across the board where it is not required is a recipe for disaster.

Re:Idiocy.

[spire3661]

Users are supposed to train themselves. Its not I.T.'s job to teach. In the past users went to school to understand terms like database, spreadsheet and how to do file handling. Im all for EMPOWERING users, but im not going to enable them via coddling.

Re: Idiocy.

[spire3661]

No, if allowed users would abuse the network and NO ONE could get work done. The computer in front of you is not yours. If you connect your own device to the company network, you relinquish all control of it. The network is more important than any one individual user. IM all for empowering users, but I cannot allow you to jeopardize the network without serious justification.

Re: Idiocy.

[spire3661]

How do they know that tool is from a trusted vendor? Have they put the app on a test machine first and monitor its output using IT tools? That's what IT does. Also its not 'their' machine, it is the company's machine, never ever forget that. IF you need an app, come to us and ask. WE then vet the app and approve or deny based on mandates from our bosses. You are not our boss. I am all about empowering users, as long as they go through the right channels and act professional.

Re: Idiocy.

[spire3661]

I.T.'s job is to run the network and document it. TRAINING users is not our mandate. Management's job is to recognize and administer training, not I.T.

Re: Idiocy.

[budgenator]

Which would also be puzzling, as in any normal corporate setup users can't install software on their own Windows machines either.

Oh yes they can, That one mission critical application really isn't windows compatible and will not run properly without Administrator privileges, so the users can install anything they like.

Re:Idiocy.

[spire3661]

I used to think this, but we have swung too far. People need to understand the basics of computers considering we are in an Information Age. Users want all the power and none of the responsibility and that's never going to work.

Re: Idiocy.

[spire3661]

The network is more important than your lack of preparedness. I.T. doesn't have time to deal with unreasonable requests like 'give me all the power but none of the responsibility.'

Re:Idiocy.

[AthanasiusKircher]

I recall when my office moved from Wordperfect 5 to the first Windows version pf MS-Word. It was a fucking nightmare.

Hmm, still is.

Despite the obvious advantages WYSIWYG, there were months worth of bitching and moaning, and a few people who pretty much convinced management to let them keep using Wordperfect in a DOS window.

If only those people had won. Seriously.

I know somebody's going to mod me "troll" for saying this, but hear me out...

Word processors are for typing text. They are not layout editors. They are not publishing software. So much time is wasted in office environments with people tweaking their ridiculous Word files (direct formatting with tabs and carriage returns and whatever), which inevitably break the next time they save the file, or move one word, or (heaven forbid!) try to open the thing in another version of the same software or a version on a different OS (Windows vs. Mac).

People who need documents that should look publication-ready should be using proper software that has layout and design capabilities built-in.

People who are just making up reports with a bunch of text which barely needs formatting don't need WYSIWYG -- in fact, it ends up wasting HUGE amounts of work time for little gain.

Re:Idiocy.

[Zupaplex]

You seem to have misread GP's "or" as "xor".

Re: Idiocy.

[FatLittleMonkey]

You need something installed, put in a ticket with a justification. You don't need War and Peace, just a blurb on how the software relates to your job.
If you can't do that, you don't need it and most certainly do not need to be able software at will.

Wow. That sounds great. But... how do you reconcile that with an IT dept (in the story) that apparently doesn't know how to install a text editor in Linux?

I mean, forget running Windows-only shit in a VM, a fucking text editor. In Linux.

(Or a place I used to do training, which locked training machines (Windows) to a saved state... but with all the autoupdates left on. Every time you booted up the training machines, they started trying to install hundreds of updates for every single piece of software. Which half would fail to install after downloading anyway because you needed admin privileges to confirm the install. (And as near as I could tell, the saved state hadn't been updated in at least two years.) Same (off-site) IT dept wouldn't install a widely used accounting package onto the training computers (the thing we were meant to be training on), with no explanation given. At least six months while I was there, the site manager (and her boss) couldn't get the IT dept to either install the already purchased software, or at least give them some idea of why they were refusing. We all just used our laptops. Funnily enough, the actual office network (not the training network) was so poorly locked down, you could plug in any random laptop to any random ethernet port and get access without so much as a login. One weekend, they set up a wi-fi network in the office, without telling anyone in the office, including a guest account for students (judging by the SSID - "Student (Guest)"), but didn't give passwords to anyone who actually worked there.)

Re: Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

Fair enough. In this case you system should be treated as hostile when you come back into the office. It doesn't have to effect you even in the office, it just means the network you are on should be quarantined from anything that may be sensitive.

Networks should be like that anyways. I only have access to data I need.

Also it sounds like your role is IT focussed to at least a degree. If you are on site making your employers software work on other peoples system you must be operating in a role of some IT trust. This is not the same requirements as for people who have no idea how computers really work.

That's fine, but, ultimately, I'm an end user. I am not in an IT division that manages our network, infrastructure, procurement, etc. I am in a revenue generating customer facing division and I get issued technology from the IT division. Blanket rules being discussed way up the list by ACs that "Users shouldn't install software" are plain wrong. I'm a user.

Re:Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

Half the people in the workforce don't want to use technology but they have to. Cops and firefighters don't give a shit about technology unless it helps them do their job, but I'll be damned if cities and counties don't force them to use software to update their timecard, file incident reports, do performance reviews, setup a schedule, etc. If you don't train them, they don't know. I walk into a place and 25% are proactive people who want to learn, 50% are people who don't care and can learn it if they're forced to, and 25% are people who hate change, hate technology, are technical morons, or whatever but they have to be taught because it's a function of their job. A firefighter needs to know how to operate a ladder truck, and they're trained on it and get good at it, but that doesn't mean that they can operate Linux or Windows or even iOS, but they have to for their job anyways, and if you're giving them software you need to train them.

Re:Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

The vast majority of people are told to use technology in support of their job, not as a primary function of their job. Most people don't sit behind computers 24/7, but they still need to use them to submit timecards, generate reports, etc.

Re: Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

? If your network design is so shitty that a generic end user has access to critical data, then it's IT with the problem, not the end user.

Re:Idiocy.

[FatLittleMonkey]

To be fair to the old timers, both Wordperfect and Word were equally pieces of shit, but with Wordperfect you could turn on the format codes and actually see what it was fucking up and fix it yourself. Word hid everything behind a pseudo-WYSIWYG. And it's the "pseudo" that makes you tear your hair out.

Re:Idiocy.

[iplayfast]

Wordperfect was (and still is) more functional the wysisyg word processors. This is because Word Perfect was not limited to a gui interface to do the job. In the same way that a command line interface is more functional then a gui. Sure a gui is easier to learn but it isn't as functional. (try running sed from a gui)

Turns out that 90% of the people don't need all the functionality and the lowest common denominator dominates. That and marketing.

Re: Idiocy.

[FatLittleMonkey]

In all seriousness, do you think people are lying when they relate horror stories about their corporate IT? Just idiots throwing a tantrum because they can't install a malware screensaver?

Re:Idiocy.

[manu0601]

And if she plugs in a USB drive from work, opens LibreOffice, works on a spreadsheet... and calls it "excel," it doesn't matter and it still works!

But you had to configure LibreOffice to not ask her whether she wants to save a documents as MS Office or ODF, right?

Re:Idiocy.

[aaarrrgggh]

Months?! I am still bitching and moaning about how much worse Word is today than WP5.1. Aaah, the ease of writing... and formatting... a 100+ page document!

Word is getting better in terms of making things look pretty, if you don't puke on the ribbon...

Re: Idiocy.

[Anonymous Coward]

All I see is city of Munich received large check from Microsoft along with 10 years of free software licenses.

Re: Idiocy.

[Aaden42]

In all seriousness, I think the vast majority of those who complain the most bitterly about IT restricting software installs are either looking to goof off (solitaire, sports, streaming, etc.) or demanding useless customizations (screen savers, themes, etc.).

A very small minority may be programmers or other engineers who would legitimately benefit from additional software but work in misguided shops that force restrictions on people who do know how to handle themselves correctly. My heart goes out to people stuck in that situation.

But yes, the vast majority of denied exceptions for additional software are denied for good reason.

Re: Idiocy.

[Dynedain]

I'm the boss who determined and approved sublime as the text editor for the roles I oversee. A year later when my machine is wiped by a failure in the automatic deployment in the craptastic non-native, buggy, full disk encryption that IT forces in their standard, I requested the license to reinstall sublime (I have admin access). Answer? "We don't support that. Use the version of Text Wrangler that was put on the standard image for your role 3 years ago because we can't remember that we were supposed to update the standard image to sublime last year"

Re: Idiocy.

[FatLittleMonkey]

Ah, so unless it's a dev or engineer ("one of us"), all the people who complain about not being able to do their jobs because of shitty IT policies and lazy/crazy IT people must all be lying.

For eg,
I was doing a cert update (accounting) through a trainer, their IT dept at head office had the training machines boot from a saved state. Which is fair enough: training machines. Except that they'd left all the autoupdates turned on, and it looked like they hadn't updated that saved state for over two years. So each time you turned on a machine, it started trying to update every piece of software for an hour or so. And half the updates failed (anything except the core OS) because they were set to require admin-level confirmation to confirm the final install, which, of course, no-one had.

Meanwhile, for the entirety of the six month course, the IT dept refused to install the corporate accounting package that we were there to train on... You know, the actual function of the company. The site manager (and apparently her boss) couldn't get the IT dept to install the (already purchased) software, nor explain why they were refusing. So we students (and half the staff) just used our laptops...

And funnily enough, the actual office network (not just the training network) was so poorly secured you could just plug in any random laptop to any random ethernet port and get access without so much as a login. Near the end of my six months there, one weekend they set up a wi-fi network in the office, without telling anyone in the office, including a guest account for students (judging by the SSID - "Student (Guest)"), but didn't give passwords to anyone who actually worked there.

But no, I guess we were just trying to install a pirated, malware laced version of solitaire.

Re: Idiocy.

[goarilla]

In the perfect "best man for the job" world this would be the case.
But in today's world where IT service is considered a mass commodity item and thus has to be cheap.
This usually means no training or training given by IT.

Re: Idiocy.

[Aaden42]

In the vast majority of cases, the problems caused by "one of you" having too little access to a machine are significantly less dangerous than having too much access. The case you've described sounds more than a little BOFH-ish. That's unfortunate, but it happens. They still made the correct decision in restricting access to the machines.

If you'd brought your own laptop in and plugged it into my corporate network, you'd have been summarily dismissed same day, no questions asked.

The fact that you were trying to do something you think was okay doesn't change the fact that lots of end users try to do dumb and dangerous things daily. Many of them also see nothing wrong with what they're trying to do. Networks with wide open machines are full of compromised machines.

Not to sugar coat it, but IT knows better than end users when it comes to security and compliance. We get paid to be experts in it. End users get paid to be experts in other things and will (probably) never be equipped to make correct IT security decisions.

You don't have to like the restrictions, but you do have to live with them and comply with our security policy. Your other option is find another job.

Re: Idiocy.

[FatLittleMonkey]

Read what I wrote again.

I was a customer not an employee. I was paying the training company for the training and certification I needed for accreditation. (And I most certainly will be finding another company next time it comes due.)

The staff couldn't do their job because of the failure of their IT dept to do their job.

As a result, we (the clients) had to use our own computers, and in doing so we discovered that we had full network access (often more than the staff had) because the IT dept failed to do their jobs and secure the network properly. Meanwhile, the company lost reputation and lost business because of the actions (and inactions) of those IT dept employees. From what I heard, they lost a major contract due to this kind of bullshit, and had to close down an entire regional centre.

And I'm sure that the same incompetent IT dept probably patted themselves on the back and told stories about idiot end lusers, just as you do. Congratulated themselves on fighting the good fight against the lusers.

I mean, you couldn't even listen to a user enough to understand that I was not employee, but a paying client. You were already so far up your own ass, so ready with your excuses "if you don't like it, go find another job", that you couldn't even read the words.

Re: Idiocy.

[GargamelSpaceman]

Not all employees are assembly line workers. Often there are ad-hoc / one off tasks that nobody has foreseen because nobody understands the need like a user. ( maybe nobody even knows of the need but that one user who needs to do something. )

Overly restrictive policies make it impossible to do things better.

Remember computers are for users, not their admin staff. Locking users out of their machines turns them into paperweights.

Re: Idiocy.

[GargamelSpaceman]

Not the user's job to try to do things better... Depends on the user. Not all users are doing the same thing over and over. Users might be doing things for the first time, and nobody has foreseen their needs.

Re: Idiocy.

[GargamelSpaceman]

If the task is something where IT can do that kind of testing, it's probably something that has been or should be fully automated. The rest of the things people do vary from day to day and IT won't have foreseen the users need. Often the needs are in flux.

Re: Idiocy.

[Aaden42]

I understood just fine that you were taking a class. That didn't change my answer. If you brought your own hardware in and plugged it into my network, I would have fired you as a customer and tried to have your cert credit revoked if it was even slightly tech or security related.

I also would have ensured that my snapshotted machines were kept up to date and would have accommodated your software needs assuming sufficient licenses were available. I probably also would have had NAC running on any customer accessible ports to make sure your hardware couldn't have been connected.

You ran into some lazy admins, but you also violated any reasonable company policy in connecting unapproved hardware in a way that might have run afoul of CFAA.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The ends don't justify the means when NetSec is involved.

Re:Idiocy.

[budgenator]

The point is, if they can't do it in Ubuntu, they can't do it in anything, skype is skype, M$ Office changes things just for the sake of commercial trainers; so if users are just memorizing click streams they are going to be just as lost between versions of Office as they are between Office and LibreOffice.

Re:Idiocy.

[SivDotnet]

Precisely; and this is the major issue trying to get "free" operating systems into business, it's not free in the end because you have to fork out a fortune in training to get people used to another system. It can be done but the brave souls who try to get Linux adopted seem to ignore this very real cost and also the extra cost of getting Linux admins who are rare compared to Windows Admins and thus demand much higher salaries which again adds more to the bottom line.

This is why Windows 8 never got into business as the cost of training the new paradigm was too great!

Siv

Re: Idiocy.

[ultranova]

You need something installed, put in a ticket with a justification. You don't need War and Peace, just a blurb on how the software relates to your job.

If you can't do that, you don't need it and most certainly do not need to be able software at will.

And after you've wasted enough time writing those tickets and waiting for answers, you just say "screw it" and use whatever tools are at hand, whether they're a good fit or not. Because if you don't get your job done, you'll get fired. And so we end up with Excel databases and other clever repurposings of existing technology.

Re: Idiocy.

[Rob Bos]

What's your current ratio of staff to desktops? We have four people for about 600 machines, and we don't allow our staff admin access.

It's been my experience that the people with administrative access are more work, generally, since they get themselves into trouble more easily, even if they know what they're doing. Also, having staff waste time solving IT issues themselves is generally going to take more staff time, overall, than having a few dedicated people solving those issues on a broader scale; ie, one person taking 30 minutes to update and test Java is better than 1000 people spending 3 minutes each doing it, even if nothing goes wrong. In theory the IT person has a shot at being able to intercept potential issues with a critical app before it goes live.

Re: Idiocy.

[Rob Bos]

I've run into situations with people with your requirements. I'd give you administrative access, make a note of it in our wiki, and give you the brief schpiel about how if you break it, the most likely outcome is your machine getting re-imaged from bare metal, so keep backups. No sweat. Administrative access isn't a huge deal IFF the person can give the shibboleet, so to speak.

Re:Idiocy.

[Pi1grim]

I'd say it's more of Microsoft's FUD. Ever since Munich has moved to open-source solutions they have been flooding the web with false news trying to discredit their decision. This article is no exception. Especially the title. A.) City of Munich doesn't struggle with anything, just a small percentage of conservative party is unhappy that the laptops they've been issued for work are not suitable for gaming B) about a year ago many sites have claimed that Munich council were planning to move away from linux to windows, but failed to publish a retraction after an official statement from head of council that said this was a regular revision and that results showed a lot of money were saved by using Linux. So, Fear, Unceartanty, Doubt.

Re: Idiocy.

[spire3661]

The reason for that is because users stopped training themselves so the only choice was for work to do it, at great expense. There is a VERY long road that lead us to where we are, and it starts with office workers no longer taking office automation training. Its not condescension, its derision for those that refuse to join the Information Age as informed participants. For too long I held up the torch for users until they become so dumb that somehow I.T. is to blame for their lack of preparedness.

Re:Idiocy.

[Aighearach]

Nope. She's only editing documents, so it uses the correct type. But even a novice user can be taught to choose the word "excel" in the file save dialog.

If she ever called me from work and said she had the wrong file type, I'd just tell her to put it on google drive, and then click "excel." That is 99% of my use of Google Drive; converting documents on other people's machines without installing anything.

Just keep looking for the word "excel." You will eventually make it work. ;) Persistence is more important than knowledge for this type of office-task stuff.

Re: Idiocy.

[bhcompy]

I work in the public sector. Most users can't themselves. The vast majority of the software used for functions outside of word processing are generally custom or highly specialized COTS software. How do you self-train on RMS/CAD software? What about the custom payroll program still running on an AS400 that's accessed with a terminal emulator?

Re: Idiocy.

[Aighearach]

Nobody has to "support" me, if nobody can find a solution I would be the one engineering one. ;)

As for special snowflakes, if we identify one they will be quickly fired. We have no need for the sort of person... you seem to see everywhere you look. Hmm. If you're so critical to the project that you can't be fired, or that you need special considerations, you need to be fired immediately for the preservation of the company. And maybe your project manager. Otherwise we'd be one car crash from total failure, all day, every day. No thank you. If you're so much "better" than your co-workers that you have a better idea of the needed tools than both your peers and your managers, and you work outside of the comics, then you've probably just got a swollen head and didn't check your co-workers capabilities.

If you have a decent team, they can sit down in advance and determine which tools they need. In my experience, the person asking for a special tool is almost always behind schedule, and if you check on them randomly throughout the day you'll find them to not be working. I mean, they already failed to convince people with more experience than them that they need the tool. By definition of the situation.

Odd though that you presume that having a decent workplace makes somebody a snowflake. If you read my actual words, it should be pretty obvious that that isn't described. Having the same toolset for the whole team is not the stuff of "snowflakes."

In a corporate setting, devops can go a long way towards differentiating between poor project management and poor IT practices when conflicts come up.

Tell the old dogs

[Anonymous Coward]

that they simply have to learn a new trick. Switching back to Windows because some old geezer can't find the right icon is ridiculous.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[Anonymous Coward]

Downvoted for speaking truth.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[JSG]

My wife has no idea she is using Arch Linux and KDE in the main on her laptop. It just works. She browses the web, Facebook and dodgy Flash games, YouTube etc etc, emails via our corp Exchange (I own the company), and so on. Printing just works as does the webcam, bluetooth, touchpad and all the rest.

I replaced the laptop with another in about 60 mins after cloning the old HD to the new one, most of that was spent getting the discs out into a cloner. I had to fiddle with one driver (Broadcom WiFi bollocks).

I update it via ssh every now and then and suggest a reboot eventually when she fancies it. I have locked the widgets and embiggened some of them so they are always where they should be and easy to find.

No computer OS is just plain sailing, Windows, Linux, *BSD, OSX or whatever. They all have sharp edges somewhere.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[MagickalMyst]

"...a hobbyist OS that is so difficult to use...It's 10x more difficult to do even the simplest task.."

Absolute horseshit!

Linux is not difficult to use; especially if someone else - like an administrator - installs and configures it for you.

People are not born with knowledge of any OS; whether it be Windows, IOS, OS/2, or whatever. Point and click is how we use most modern operating systems, and learning the program menu and what icons to click on is trivial. Most people can be taught this in under an hour. (left click =action; right click=options. Double-click to run. It isn't exactly rocket science.) One must assume that employees were given a training session before/during/after the migration.

If a user wants to run a program such as Skype, for example, and still does not know how to use the mouse to double-click on the little Skype icon (exactly the same as in Windows), then they have no business even using a computer in the first place.

"...is so difficult to use its market share is a mere rounding error."

Really? You have proof, I assume. Do tell.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[0123456]

Not as ridiculous as switching an entire government entity to a hobbyist OS that is so difficult to use its market share is a mere rounding error.

Yeah, they should have given them Window 8. They'd have been totally used to using that, and wouldn't have had any problems.

Ha-ha-ha.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[Doc_Gamesh]

it's 10x more difficult to do even the simplest task, and most people just don't have that kind of time to spare.

Huh? That's so wrong it's absurd.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[MagickalMyst]

"...but you're not going to be loading any hay bails into the boot of that austin healey."

That's correct. You'll need to install additional packages for that functionality ;)

Re:Tell the old dogs

[rcoxdav]

That may be true, but how well would she be able to use it without someone like you to smooth out the rough edges?

Re:Tell the old dogs

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

>> Linux market share is a mere rounding error

It's at 1.7% as of last year. Compared to Windows' 85.5% share (about 50x more), the author's quip about Linux market share being a rounding error is correct.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan....
(Several other similar studies are also mentioned.)

Re:Tell the old dogs

[swillden]

That may be true, but how well would she be able to use it without someone like you to smooth out the rough edges?

And what clueless Windows or OS X user doesn't have someone smoothing out their rough edges?

Re:Tell the old dogs

[Aighearach]

"...a hobbyist OS that is so difficult to use...It's 10x more difficult to do even the simplest task.."

Absolute horseshit!
 

Like my dad taught me... bullshit is just stuff that is wrong and offensive on a day-to-day level. Horseshit is where they knew it was wrong even before they said it, and said it anyway in case you didn't know better, combined with it being offensive anyways. Wrong, dangerous, and knowing. I'd say it applies here.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[Yunzil]

Absolute horseshit!

You're right. It's only about 5x as difficult, not 10x.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[Anonymous Coward]

Your wife is an idiot.

Re: Tell the old dogs

[chill]

that is what Chromebooks are for. My wife has used one for over a year with no problems. That includes no interference from me other than letting it apply updates and reboot monthly.

My initial setup was to add the WiFi password and point out to the printer.

No viruses, no malware, no ads (OK, I also installed uBlock), no problems.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[Xtifr]

RIght--a system developed by IBM, Google, Intel, Oracle, and a whole horde of other corporations is a "hobbyist" OS. I'm sure the many billions of dollars that IBM alone has poured into Linux development were just for fun. (Not to mention the team of developers they put on OpenOffice after Oracle dropped the ball there, in case you were going to say something about "server-only".)

Have you just come out of a dozen years in suspended animation? Because I can't think of any other reason for such a ridiculous statement.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[ukoda]

Have you not seen Windows 8? My parents needed to replace a dyeing XP laptop. They looked at the Windows 8 machines in the stores and had no idea how to use one so contacted me. I set them up a on new laptop running Mint Linux. They are old and struggle with computers but the move from XP to Mint was easy for them, took only an evening of introduction. They have been using that Linux laptop for about 2 years now and my support requirements are almost zero, much less than XP needed.

I recently moved to new job that required me to use a Windows 7 desktop after a couple of years using a Linux desktop at work and it did find it a hassle. To quote Anonymous Coward's flame bait "it's 10x more difficult to do even the simplest task, and most people just don't have that kind of time to spare.", Linux is so much simpler to use as Windows takes so long to wade though endless GUI screens and menus to make simple changes on Windows. Yes that is flame bait too but for me it is true.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[Xtifr]

And yet, when big companies want to do "heavy lifting" of their data, what are they most likely to turn to? That's right. Linux. Linux is used for everything from tiny embedded systems to the world's largest supercomputers and databases. If you're actually loading hay bails, you're more likely to be using Linux than Windows, both to control the bailer, and to keep track of worldwide distribution of hay. (At best, you might be using some Windows to act as a semi-smart terminal, to get a view of those small devices and big databases running Linux. But there's a steadily increasing chance you'll be using Linux-based Android or Unix-based iOS instead.)

Re:Tell the old dogs

[Harlequin80]

God yes this. Linux mint = drop in install dvd, turn on system, click install linux mint, fill in 2 pages of questions, wait, reboot, done. System is installed with just about everything 99% of users need in a default system. 1hr

Windows 7 = drop in dvd, turn on, select your version, fill in 2 pages of questions, wait, reboot, wait, reboot, wait, log in - everything is looking shite and at 800 x 600, install updates, wait, wait, reboot, wait, reboot, wait, reboot, wait, reboot. System is up but 50% of the device drivers are missing. Crap, spend hours trying to workout what random unnamed device is to find driver off a website (what you think they still have the original device driver disk???), install virus scanners, & office, update IE if you don't want to give them something better. Yay we are finally working 8 hours later....

Re:Tell the old dogs

[FatLittleMonkey]

The ones in Munich, obviously.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[JSG]

Old thread but I can't resist: I just give her what she needs and at the same time spend less time (on the IT side) than I did with Windows 7.

I have 20+ years experience with Windows and DOS and a mere 15 or so with Linux. From my perspective, supporting Arch is easier than Windows 7.

Re:Tell the old dogs

[Rob Bos]

The numbers change pretty fast once you leave the desktop market, obviously. Home routers, phones, tablets, servers. It's a varied ecosystem, capable of adapting and being adapted to new niches with minimal overhead. So I don't sweat the desktop market much, personally. It has succeeded for my desktop, and I'm happy with it there.

1.7% is still a lot of desktops in absolute terms.

We don't no stinkin' planning department...

[__aaclcg7560]

Throwing Linux on the PCs and letting users figure it out isn't a proven strategy.

Re:We don't no stinkin' planning department...

[captnjohnny1618]

In fact, I'd say the only thing proven about it is the likelihood of failure! We have TONS of evidence supporting that.

Re:We don't no stinkin' planning department...

[MagickalMyst]

"Throwing Linux on the PCs and letting users figure it out isn't a proven strategy."

It is for us \. geeks. That's the fun of it.

Re:We don't no stinkin' planning department...

[MagickalMyst]

"In 1995 i throw slackware linux on my 8486dx and never went back."

Slackware rocks! Cheers!

Re:We don't no stinkin' planning department...

[JazzLad]

Wouldn't a Linux geek use /. (rather than \.)?

:)

Re:We don't no stinkin' planning department...

[Tom]

Which is why nobody did it. There was a multi-year transition period with multiple steps.

Speak from knowledge, not ignorance. It's better for your karma.

Re:We don't no stinkin' planning department...

[MagickalMyst]

"Wouldn't a Linux geek use /. (rather than \.)?"

I'm a southpaw geek. ;)

Translations

[sjbe]

The councilors from Munich's conservative CSU party have called the operating system installed on their laptops "cumbersome to use" and "of very limited use.

Translation: We don't want to be bothered learning anything new and it doesn't have solitaire on it.

"There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use,"

Translation: We have no idea what we are talking about, can't be bothered to ask any questions and only want to use what we are already familiar with.

Another complaint from councilors is that "the lack of user permissions makes them of limited use."

Translation: We want to be able to download whatever malware infested screensaver or porn we feel like.

Re:Translations

[wvmarle]

"There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use,"

Translation: We have no idea what we are talking about, can't be bothered to ask any questions and only want to use what we are already familiar with.

Wrong translation. This should be: "those that install the systems have no idea what they're doing", as such software should be pre-installed on any system and be ready for use. Of course I'm taking the complaint at face value here, and the complaint is that standard productivity software has not been pre-installed. To ease transition, they may even consider using the default Windows icon for Word on the OpenOffice/LibreOffice launcher and so. Skype has a Linux version so that's even more of a no-brainer, it should be pre-installed or made dead easy to install if licensing prevents pre-installing it.

Re:Translations

[LordLimecat]

Translation: "Linux is free" often does not factor in real-world retraining and retooling costs.

Want to push OpenOffice / Linux as cheaper alternatives? Wonderful. Just dont pretend that theyre actually free when it comes to use in a business, especially with folks used to a different system.

Re:Translations

[spire3661]

ITs time to stop coddling these people. WE are neck deep into an Information Age. ITs time to let those that cant live in our new environment die out. Im DONE coddling users. Keep the pace or be left behind. Too much of computing is getting dumbed down and locked up because idiots wont take courses on how to actually operate a computer.

Re:Translations

[khasim]

All systems require support.

No one is saying that installing Linux means that you do not have to pay for any of the standard costs associated with a system.

And remember that the opposition NEEDS to find a cause to champion that is contrary to the current system. Otherwise they aren't the opposition.

Whether or not their complaints are valid is irrelevant. That's how politics works.

Re:Translations

[bhcompy]

Spend less on licensing, spend way more on IT, training, custom programming, etc.

Re:Translations

[LichtSpektren]

Translation: "Linux is free" often does not factor in real-world retraining and retooling costs.

Want to push OpenOffice / Linux as cheaper alternatives? Wonderful. Just dont pretend that theyre actually free when it comes to use in a business, especially with folks used to a different system.

Sure, it costs a bit to train somebody to use Unix and LibreOffice. Of course, that training is basically permanent, because the IT administration can keep them on the same user interfaces forever. Contrast this to MSOffice and Windows, whose shitty and random UI rollercoasters (Ribbon & Metro being the prime offenders) have probably cost the world tens of millions of dollars in retraining.

Re: Translations

[buchanmilne]

As far as I remember, their transition strategy started with deploying OpenOffice and Firefox on all Windows machines and making them the default, then removing MS Office a few months later, then switching the OS a year later while keeping most applications the same.

IOW it is almost impossible that the users didn't have a word processor available or know how to use it, or even if it was the case, thus wasn't as a result of the OS change.

Not having Skype may be due to policy (which would apply regardless of OS), in favour of other privacy-respecting IM platform.

Re:Translations

[ArsenneLupin]

Well said!

Re:Translations

[jtownatpunk.net]

The software probably is pre-installed and they don't know it because they skipped the training sessions that were offered and didn't even read the memo that listed the linux equivalent and showed which icons to click.

If I had a dollar for every time someone emailed me to tell me that email wasn't working, I could have retired even sooner.

Re:Translations

[Rakarra]

Because licensing is always cheaper than the labor costs associated with switching to the cheaper software... right?

Depends on the licence, but yes, that's often correct.

Re: Translations

[goarilla]

Is anyone really still running Kde 3.x or better yet Kde 2.x ? Libraries get updated and break compatibility all the time. And while you can use the source good luck building, packaging and maintaining that software on a modern distro.

Re:Translations

[parkinglot777]

Of course I'm taking the complaint at face value here, and the complaint is that standard productivity software has not been pre-installed.

From googling, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... is about the software they have. Down around Linux-Client section, it said that the OS is actually Ubuntu 12.04 which has OpenOffice, gedit (text editor with GUI), Firefox (Internet Browser), etc., installed by DEFAULT (these software come with the OS). However Skype must be installed manually.

To ease transition, they may even consider using the default Windows icon for Word on the OpenOffice/LibreOffice launcher and so. ...

Are you kidding me? Anyway, I am not sure if they (OpenOffice) could actual use MS Office icon in their software. It could easily be an IP issue. Besides would you want to make other people think that your software is someone else software? You implement your own software, remember?

I have been using Ubuntu since ver. 7.04 and now is 14.04 (there is 15.04 but I don't upgrade my OS). At the same time, I still have to work with Window boxes. I can somewhat see why these people think that Linux is more difficult to use. The GUI is a bit different, how to get to/search for certain software is also different. There is no "Start" button in Linux. There is no drive C:, D:, etc, in Linux, but it is all directory (and could be from a mounted storage). CD-Rom is auto-mounted and would appear when a disc is inserted in Linux (no permanent icon needed as in Windows). Some software even have options in different places in Linux (i.e. Firefox in Windows has 'Options' under 'Tool' menu, but in Linux the option becomes 'Preferences' and is under 'Edit').

For some people, it is not easy to switch from one GUI platform (including many other minor changes) to another. These people may either not be trained enough or not want to move out of their comfort zone and learn new GUI.

Re:Translations

[Aighearach]

Translation: "Linux is free" often does not factor in real-world retraining and retooling costs.

Free as in Freedom, not Free as in Beer.

Re:Translations

[tverbeek]

I've said for years that the only thing holding back Linux on the desktop was the availability of a good text editor.

And don't tell me about vi or Emacs ... I said "good". :P

Re:Translations

[UnderCoverPenguin]

There are a lot of people who thing they have no internet if there's no big blue E icon on the desktop. The same goes for document editing. If there's no MSWord icon, they don't have any document editing software period.

I did an experiment once. Coworkers would look at my (Linux) PC's desktop and say "Other than FireFox, I can't find anything on your desktop." So, one day, I changed the icons to ones that looked very similar to ones on MS Windows. Those same coworkers were then able to understand my PC's desktop, many asking when did I switch to Windows. When I told them I had only changed the icons, they responded "Why don't Linux PCs always like a normal PC?"

I changed the icons back. And despite having seen, for example, my "start" menu button is in the same lower left corner their "start" menu buttons are, because mine has a penguin icon, not "Start" (nor the "Microsoft flag"), they can't find it.

FWIW, years ago, I read a review of Red Hat Linux (which was using KDE at the time) by a MS Windows user. One thing he said was "I like that it has multiple 'Start' menus."

Re:Translations

[spire3661]

I used to live by the mantra "User requests are what computers are for!" (Tron 1982) until the requests became 'do it all for me', im never even going to try and meet you part of the way'

Re:Translations

[bhcompy]

A good support staff of *nix personnel costs a lot more than a good support staff of Windows personnel. And holding on to that staff is even harder. It's not just about dollar cost, it's about productivity cost. *nix admins are not plug and play like Windows admins are. You lose one of those admins and you're waiting months rather than days to find a candidate you consider qualified, and God forbid something bad happens in the meantime.

Re: Translations

[bill_mcgonigle]

Not having Skype may be due to policy (which would apply regardless of OS), in favour of other privacy-respecting IM platform.

On one hand the German government is very angry about all the NSA spying on their officials. Microsoft is *very* clear that Skype has hooks for the NSA (thank you, fellows). And yet the German officials can't get enough of their Skype.

Blame the Germans for electing these idiots.

Re:Translations

[PNutts]

ITs time to stop coddling these people. WE are neck deep into an Information Age. ITs time to let those that cant live in our new environment die out. Im DONE coddling users. Keep the pace or be left behind. Too much of computing is getting dumbed down and locked up because idiots wont take courses on how to actually operate a computer.

We hired a guy that thinks like you. His previous organization IT told the users what they could and couldn't do. That company decided to get rid of their IT department. He brought that philosophy to our company and to the administrative assistant of some c-level executives. He's no longer with our company. See the trend? Do you know Nick Burns, Your Company's Computer Guy? I think you two would get along.

Re:Translations

[spire3661]

I get your point, and you are absolutely right, its why im not actively in I.T. anymore. Too many people have unrealistic expectations of security vs. functionality. Too many people expect their work machine to be their personal play toy. I come from a different era where users respected the network and their machines.

Re:Translations

[Bert64]

Remember this is local government doing the spending...

Licensing is money leaving the area, even leaving the country.

Money spent on training and developers can and should stay in the local area, which creates jobs and some of it returns in the form of tax. So long as the total cost isn't massively higher (which it isn't, their published figures show that it's overall lower) then it's preferable.

Training and custom development also creates longer term value, the software licenses you buy will become worthless in a few years when that software reaches end of life and has to be replaced.
Similarly custom development scales - the costs are the same regardless of how many users are running your custom software, making it highly beneficial for a large organization.

Re: Translations

[Bert64]

GNOME tried to change the UI quite radically, and it resulted in third parties forking the older code base to make a more familiar interface.
You have choices, familiar interfaces will always remain available so long as there are users who want to use them, and you aren't forced to run an old os just to get the familiar interface.

You don't get the same options with MS, they have forced several significant ui changes on users in recent years.

Re: Translations

[goarilla]

True we have more choice. But I can't maintain my own KDE/Gnome fork.
And let's not forget that the trinity, cinnamon and mate teams all have their own agenda's.
And one day you might need to fork the fork and its libs, which again is something I'm not capable of :D.

Re:Translations

[bhcompy]

Custom software requires lots of specially trained people to update, maintain, and manage the software. When one retires, you lose tons of knowledge. Proprietary software is almost always a poor long term solution if a COTS solution is available for most functions in the areas we're talking about. People outside of your organization know the product(meaning that support is available from the outside and that you can replace staff more easily when you lose someone), the product is supported by a real company(rather than a local devshop for hire that goes out of business in 5 years), people you bring in as end users and such may already have knowledge of the product, you have the comfort of knowing that other entities successfully use the product and you're not starting from scratch on a wing and a prayer(like, say, custom payroll for LAUSD that turned into a $100m loss), you generally have standardized methods of communicating with other systems(can you time and attendance software speak with your payroll software? what about the time and attendance software 10 years from now? what about the next software you bring in that replaces a function done outside of software today?), etc

Get an admin.

[roman_mir]

I am writing this on an older Ubuntu machine, I have text editors, office, Skype among other things that I use on daily basis.

The real problem is clearly not lack of any of these instruments, which are present.

Re:Get an admin.

[MagickalMyst]

+1 if I had some points.

Normal people have no way to know that

[Schezar]

Normal people don't know what applications are or how to install them. They click blindly, like newborn infants, until Microsoft Word appears, and then they express whatever it is in them that drove them to this extreme. Outlook is a gateway into a magical world of 576,442 unread emails and 500,333 unsent drafts. The "fix it" button on the front of the machine usually works, but sometimes doesn't. Their grandson tells them to stop hitting that button, but he's into voodoo and something called Mimecraft, so what does he know?

Re:Normal people have no way to know that

[peragrin]

I am sad to say my coworkers outlook boxes are just like that. They are amazed I have zero unread emails and like 4 emails in my inbox. Then I expand the folders to reveal hundreds of folders with 500 MB from just the last six months.

The thing is I just file things when I am done with them for future referencing. I can find things quickly just by knowing where to look. The seem arch box only helps if you have lots of details and time to go through the false positives.

How are the configured?

[Noble713]

As TFS states, all that stuff should be readily available in Linux/Ubuntu. If users complain about the lack of a text editor in all likelihood the training program for transitioning Windows users is mediocre (and the users themselves are stuck in their ways and won't adapt easily). If the systems are being issued to users with no day-to-day office functionality, that's a problem with their IT department dropping the ball setup-wise. That's not a failure of the operating system itself.

Re:How are the configured?

[Aighearach]

Training is not a cup that the teacher fills for you. If the person complains their cup is empty, and you don't even know if they attended classes or participated constructively, it is very very premature to blame the teacher. If you're willing to blame the teacher before having specific information about what transpired, it shows your "education science" cup is nearly empty.

I agree that it isn't the OS's fault in either case, of course. But there is no information that implicates the IT department. Actually if you look at the public project history, they transitioned to the new applications... on Windows before switching the OS!

Bastards

[nodan]

No way to help those guys ...

Beautiful Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

The people of Munich are obviously wrong, and need to be replaced.

Re:Beautiful Theory

[Anonymous Coward]

That's *GNU/Munich*, you insensitive clod!

Re:Beautiful Theory

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

I believe we tried that 70 years ago, but he war ended before we could get all of 'em.

Are they running Windows 8?

[jfbilodeau]

If they can't find anything on their laptop, could it be they are actually running Windows 8? It's the only mainstream desktop environment that I know of that makes it obtuse to find anything.

Re:Are they running Windows 8?

[0123456]

because hitting the windows key and typing out what you want to do is just so cumbersome.

Hint: there's a reason it's called a GRAPHICAL User Interface. If I wanted to have to type commands, I'd use a real shell.

Microsoft added that crap when Search was the New Shiny, and everything had to have Search to compete with Google.

Then they added a tablet interface when the iPad was the New Shiny, and everything had to support touchscreens to compete with Apple.

Maybe they should just try building a good desktop OS with a GRAPHICAL User Interface.

Re:Are they running Windows 8?

[Coren22]

"Windows Key" then begin typing the name of the application you are looking for. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Re:Are they running Windows 8?

[Coren22]

That can be accomplished by looking through the icons. Are you trying to claim that somehow this is worse than any other OS? Did Windows 7 tell you which application you should run for graphics editing? Does Linux?

Re:Are they running Windows 8?

[Sir_Eptishous]

Good call.
Wish I had points, you'g get em.

Re:Are they running Windows 8?

[Shadow IT Ninja]

Microsoft is just keeping up with modern ways of doing things. If you want to know how to do something, you Google it. So, they increasingly design things so you need to do exactly that. Just Google it.

The Pushback is Coming from the IT Committee

[Anonymous Coward]

The letter from the two senior members of the city's IT committee

Now this is scary, that members of the IT committee don't know the basics!

Don't light your torches just yet...

[Anonymous Coward]

While I understand that it's very easy to go "But all that functionality is there! Clearly these people are just too stupid!", but the reality is that Linux advocates are not known for being "newb" friendly (read: old people that barely know how to use computers as it is) and explaining things well to these "newbs".

While I'm in the software field, I find that a majority of people in software and IT get very impatient with people who aren't "up to their skill level" and are very haughty about it. They especially don't sit down and take the time to bring it waaaaay down to the users level and explain it well enough to make sure they "get it" (as well as they possibly can).

So put down the pitchforks and torches and take a look at yourselves. The problem is more than likely in lack of training and education of and patience with the users, not in the system itself. So don't blame the users when they don't understand the system.

(As a sidenote, there's a reason the joke exists that the best way to get an answer to a question about doing X in linux is to insult linux and talk about how windows is superior because it can do X easily.)

Re: Don't light your torches just yet...

[r_a_trip]

Munich has had this system since 2004. I refuse to believe that Munich could have survived this long on the system if it really was like in TFS.

Re: Don't light your torches just yet...

[Doc_Gamesh]

Munich has had this system since 2004. I refuse to believe that Munich could have survived this long on the system if it really was like in TFS.

Exactly, exactly, EXACTLY!!!! Practically all the comment here, in both directions, has been just in reaction to TFS. And all that says is two guys signed a letter. I'd need to see a lot more background information before forming an opinion. After all this came up before. http://linux.slashdot.org/stor...

Easy solution:

[Lisias]

Every public servant are free to BUY and INSTALL himself Windows, Office and whatever program he will think it better suits his needs. :-)

(Software privacy will be punished)

Re:Easy solution:

[Lisias]

Where I wrote "privacy", please read "piracy".

But given the present status quo on Windows 10, the present phrase will fits too. =P

Re:Idiocy. + Kickbacks

[BoRegardless]

Who got the kickbacks for recommending this?

Dear Slashdot editors

[LichtSpektren]

I know it is ubiquitous in journalism to abbreviate e.g. "two senior members of the city's IT committee" to "Munich", but it is not correct, and the imprecision of such phrases can wildly skew the impression that a reader gets versus the facts.

Examine the headline: "City of Munich Struggling With Basic Linux Functionality". Without any sort of clarifying modifier to "City of Munich", one is liable to take this to mean a significant portion of the populace (millions of people), when in fact the subject aforementioned is really a small group of sabre-rattlers.

"There are no programs for text editing"

[Solandri]

Sure there are! You have your choice of vi or emacs. :)

Re:"There are no programs for text editing"

[Coren22]

Don't forget Pico. I know it is an abomination, but it is a text editor.

Re:"There are no programs for text editing"

[Number42]

You have your choice of vi or emacs. :)

Great, now civil war's inevitable.

what!?

[CosaNostra Pizza Inc]

"There are no programs for text editing, Skype, Office etc. installed and that prevents normal use,"

LibreOffice is available from the Ubuntu package manager. Skype is also available for Linux. There're also a plethora of text editors available for Linux, including but not limited to emacs, vi, nano and Sublime Sheeeesh!!!!

Re:what!?

[Pulzar]

LibreOffice is available from the Ubuntu package manager. Skype is also available for Linux. There're also a plethora of text editors available for Linux, including but not limited to emacs, vi, nano and Sublime Sheeeesh!!!!

Not unless you have root access. If their admin didn't install these, they are stuck without them.

Maybe they should hire qualified Linux experts

[WillAffleckUW]

instead of trying to do it on the cheap.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

You save the money on the license fees, not the support cost.

Re:Maybe they should hire qualified Linux experts

[LichtSpektren]

By all metrics, LiMux has gone extraordinary well for Munich. The complainers are a bunch of politicians being paid off by Microsoft; note how there's no actual bureaucrats expressing dissatisfaction with it.

wtf?

[znrt]

Unter anderem können keinerlei Programme
(Textbearbeitungsprogramme, Skype, Office, etc.) selbst nach installiert werden, welches
einen normalen Gebrauch verhindert

no text processing? no skype? wtf? LiMux must be the worst distro ever.

or it could be that this is the worst fud ever.

Re:wtf?

[Reemi]

Mod parent up, this is about having the system locked-down so that the end user cannot configure the system as they would like to.

They complain about usability, incompatibility and that the system is locked down.

They then ask to install Windows, Office and increase the user privileges.

Note that these complaints are not from normal employees but elected city representatives (don't know the right translation for Stadträt). These are probably new users that have to get used to the new environment.

Re:wtf?

[ve3oat]

For some reason, "etc" appears as "etc', rather than "usw".

Re:wtf?

[fzimper]

You are correct. The line you quoted translates to "no applications can be installed by users themselves"

Re:wtf?

[znrt]

Reading the text you quote, it seems 'no root' is the problem here.

actually 'no root' is a solution :-) no adequate IT support would the problem there! :)

anyway, i'm not at all comfortable with having public servant's communication dependent on skype. granted, i can't quite wrap my head around the idea of using proprietary software for any public matter, it simply fails to comply with the most basic accountability requirements. money should go into developing open source communication software and providing open infrastructure instead of paying licenses to corporations for uncontrollable software.

Re:wtf?

[guruevi]

The right translation for the office would be City Council and the individuals are City Counselors.

There is some Background ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Going to Linux was a big politcal thing (pushed by a social democratic administration) in Munich, being thoroughly planned project for over 10 years. Goal: reduce license costs, increase independence. Losing Munich to a self hosting project did cost Microsoft a lot, including prestige. They are very committed to see it fail.
Now, they recently moved their German HQ from rural Munich into the center (read: into central Munichs tax borders). And they have unleashed all lobbying power they could get hold on.
These two Politicians from the letter are from the CSU, that is Bavarias quasi-monarchistic conservative big-industry corruption-laden redneck shithead party, that is in lead of whole Bavaria - except Munich, which means, they are in opposition.
Now, review that case again ...

Re:There is some Background ...

[dunkelfalke]

Actually, there are several more Social Democrat ruled cities in Bavaria than just Munich. Nuremberg, Regensburg, Coburg, Aschaffenburg, Dachau, Passau and others. Basically, CSU rules the state and the villages, SPD rules most of the larger towns/cities.

Re:There is some Background ...

[fzimper]

Good summary - although there are a couple more SPD-ruled cities in Bavaria - I wish I'd have some mod points.

Re:There is some Background ...

[enz]

The CSU is no longer opposition. Since the election in 2014, Munich is governed by a coalition of the Social Democrats (SPD) and the conservatives (CSU). Linux was introduced when a coalition of the SPD and the Green Party held the government with Christian Ude (SPD) as mayor. Ude fully supported the migration. The new mayor Dieter Reiter (SPD) is more critical and did not object in an interview to being characterized as a "Microsoft fan". He was involved in the negotiations about Microsoft moving its HQ into the city. The new deputy mayor Schmid (CSU) also critized Linux shortly after the election.

Re:ORLY?

[gQuigs]

I was curious...

If you open the PDF and to to properties it says:
Producer: OpenOffice.org 3.2
Creator: Writer

Now that is a very old version of OpenOffice... and most linux distros have switched to LibreOffice at this point. Does seem like they could use an update...

The real problem

[prefec2]

The main problem those conservative (CSU) guys have are the security precautions. They asked for admin access. With Windows, they won't get that either. Secondly, they are in the pocket of MS.

Re:ORLY?

[xenotransplant]

Who has a la carte access to their desktop/laptop computers in a professional environment?

I do!

Or a few well-labeled icons on the desktop

[raymorris]

It sounds like the problems they are having could have been avoided with a few well-labeled icons on the desktop.

If you expect people to hunt through a menu and find Chrome, some will have trouble. I've found that more often than not, of you give people a a few clear options, such as desktop icons for "Internet" and "Documents", most people can handle that. MOST of the time when people have trouble using a system, the UI can be improved to make it much more intuitive.

Microsoft Shills At Work

[hduff]

This is originating from Microsoft shills or inept IT admins. Either way, It's bullshit.

Re: Why would anyone roll out any technology...

[buchanmilne]

They didn't.

This is users complaining about change, not about poorly planned / executed change.

You always get these types, regardless of the type of change ( upgrade, change of vendors etc.), because they don't care about business objectives or anyone /anything besides "what they are used to", regardless of the effort that was put in to prepare them for the change.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Linux is great!

[xenotransplant]

It really is awesome. I suck at using it though, but I have a blast learning the ins and outs of a new system. I would be rightly pissed if someone plopped a new linux system in place of my current windows work mess without training.

Re:Linux is great!

[geoskd]

It really is awesome. I suck at using it though, but I have a blast learning the ins and outs of a new system. I would be rightly pissed if someone plopped a new linux system in place of my current windows work mess without training.

I have recently embarked on a retraining mission to replace the existing PCs at work with Linux machines. I really turned some heads when I started replacing the work cell machines with RPI2s running xubuntu. I spend about 5 minutes with each employee showing them how to use openoffice to open the excel spreadsheets they need, and how to use the new file manager to connect to the remote servers.

At first the IT guys were dead set opposed to it, as they didn't want to support yet another platform in the mix, but when the head of IT realised my approach saves him $10,000 annually in PC replacement costs, he got on board fast. We got an SDcard duplicator and just keep a pile of boot images laying around. If someone gets one of the shop floor machines fouled up, we pop a new SDcard in it, and re-image the old one for future use. If they truly bork the machine, were out $35 for a new Pi. It beats blowing up $500 PCs all the time. Even the techs have come around now, since most shop floor service calls are 5 minutes in and out. They don't even bother to trouble shoot. Just put a new SDcard in and boot. If it comes up, done. If not, swap the Pi and done.

The workers on the shop floor haven’t even really noticed the difference. A few of them have asked about playing around with the machines because they want to learn about linux. Given how easy they are to fix when broken, we let them do pretty much as they please with them, with the understanding that if they hose the thing, were not going to troubleshoot it, just wipe it and start over.

Another interpretation

[Anonymous Coward]

You aren't considering the most probable interpretation: that those are two Microsoft shills talking out of their asses (or rather: wallets).

CSU is well-known around here for its corruption.

(captcha is "epidemic" -- go figure)

Re:The two senior members

[codemachine]

Maybe they meant senior citizens.

Small wonder

[nospam007]

" letter from the two senior members of the city's IT committee"

The CSU is filled with 'senior' members, not only in IT. I guess they looked for 'Microsoft Office' and didn't find it and didn't even bother to check the LibreOffice icon.

Old farts always have problems with new stuff.

I guess they want those Linux kids off their lawn.

Can't Split Them Into Groups

[JimSadler]

There are two reasons for this that should be assigned to groups of users. First we have the too dumb to breath group that can't figure out how to use simple programs. We'll just call them the DUMMIES. The second group we can call The BRIBED. Now I can't be certain if the BRIBED are a better or worse GROUP than the DUMMIES. And then we come to the worst possible notion. A DUMMY may also be taking bribes. I will say that programs for composing music are more difficult in Linux than on Windows, puke, machines. But as far as office programs Linux based programs beat anything that Windows can support.

Re:Cumberbatch and cumbersome and cumberbumds

[Yunzil]

Or:

"OK, I added a button to go back to the previous page, and I also added buttons to go back two, three, or four pages. But since some people wouldn't want all those buttons, I added config options to enable each one of them. Oh, and the text on the buttons is also configurable, or you can set it to an image of your choice!

Oh, and I also rearranged all the other buttons while I was at it."

Lobbying involved?

[chris_clay]

In response to other comments about the possible lobbying efforts by Microsoft in this, at first I am skeptical but based on the reasons in the letter such as "no programs for text editing" and "office". Wait, what? Uhm, GNU/Linux has all of that and more. Any distro should be able to handle this sufficiently. So, based on the reasons in this latest letter, I am very skeptical as to what is really going on there.

Devil in details

[iamacat]

Today's linux distributions have all the functionality that most people need, but many small annoyances that add up to lack of polish and loss of productivity. For example, when plugging in multiple external monitors, system tends to forget the order you arranged them into last time, something that never happens under OSX. I can only imagine how bad things get in more esoteric areas that important to minority of users/developers, like accessibility and color calibration. Most users who just need the work done and don't care about ideology would prefer a better debugged OS, especially now that Microsoft fixed the Windows 8 fiasco.

Would they really do that?

[Bathroom Humor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Wouldn't use it either

[rainer_d]

But neither would I use a Windows laptop.
The former is just too much hassle and fiddling around to get everything working (if you get everything working in the first place).
The later I just refuse to use.
Now, if these two fine gentlemen had requested OS X laptops, I could understand them and give them the benefit of the doubt.
But giving them admin-rights on a Win-laptop? Yeah, that's really going to happen in a managed, 10k+ clients Windows environment

Can't find those things on Linux?

[HannethCom]

Skype is a Microsoft product now, so there's no way it would have a Linux client
http://www.skype.com/en/downlo...
Wait, it does?

No Office though.
https://www.libreoffice.org/
That's not Office, I mean something that will open .doc files.
*points at link again*
But it isn't Microsoft
https://products.office.com/en...
That's not funny!

Still doesn't address text editors
-emacs
-jed
-nano
-pico
-vim
-gvim
-gedit
-NEdit
-Tea
-Sublime
-Eclipse

You lost 90% of PC users at 'type'...

[itsdapead]

It took me less than 10 minutes to type apt-get install and receive the packages.

I opened the internet and typed Apt - get and I just got a Google page with a lot of nonsense on it.
Try typing it in the terminal, you say? Er, it says something about a lock file... What's that you say? Pseudo? Suedo? Er, what's my password...? Look, on my Windows machine I just typed "Skype" into the internet and it gave me a thing to download and run...

Seriously, although I agree that TFA smells seriously fishy, and I've known non-techy people who were quite happy with a well-set-up Linux system, people who say "you just type apt-get" and such are completely, utterly out of touch with the abilities of typical users.

There's such huge inertia behind Windows that MS can get away with debacles like Vista, Win 8 and the Office ribbon. Linux doesn't have that advantage - it needs to be twice as easy to use as Windows to win.

Copyright violation?

[GPS Pilot]

they may even consider using the default Windows icon for Word on the OpenOffice/LibreOffice launcher/quote?

Technically wouldn't that be a copyright violation, because the Word logo is a proprietary little piece of artwork?

are they the subjects from an old support story?

[zbaron]

This reminds me of the old story that got around, supposedly about a Wordperfect support call. It went something like:

Caller: Your software broke my computer!
WP: Okay, what happened?
Caller: The screen has gone black and the computer won't do anything.
(eventually)
WP: Can you take a look around the back of the computer and makes sure the cables are all securely plugged in?
Caller: Okay, I'll need to get a torch.
WP: Why?
Caller: It's dark, I can't see, the power is off.
WP: Do you still have the packing for your computer?
Caller: Yes.
WP: Please pack your computer up and send it back. You're too stupid to use a computer.
*click*

Ah but PDFs

[nashv]

Do you know the one thing that caused me to abandon Linux and get back on the Windows band-wagon when I got a new Thinkpad? There is absolutely zero PDF editing/viewing software for Linux that will compare with Acrobat Pro, Foxit Phantom or Nitro Pro.

That , and the fact that there is nothing on Linux that absolutely needs Linux. Nearly all open-source software in the Linux world also runs on Windows. OTOH, there is plenty of commercial scientific and engineering software that is either available only on Windows, or has been optimized in such a way that it works better on Windows. This is often due to the graphics card drivers. I just recovered from a 2-week fiasco with AMD drivers because some linux developer pushed a broken kernel (pci_ignore_hotplug removed!).

I think it is time that people admit that as of 2015, there are several use cases where Windows is just better to have installed rather than Linux. In fact, I'd go so far as to say if you have to install just one operating system on a computer, most definitely install Windows. As a computer literate user , you are less likely to have to fiddle and run into roadblocks with Windows.

I don't beleve them.

[whoever57]

Users don't want a text editor. They want a program like Word or *Office Writer.

This is complete BS. My guess is that the person who spearheaded the Linux migration has left and now the remaining IT managers want to go back to what they are comfortable with.

Background

[Hans Adler]

Planning for the LiMux project started in 2002 on the initiative of an SPD city councillor. It was about migration from Windows NT to Linux rather than a newer version of Windows. SPD (social democratic party) usually has the majority in the Munich city council, and had it at the time. However, in the 2014 elections SPD has lost 8 seats and CSU (christian social union) has won 3. CSU now has 1 more seat than SPD.

Microsoft obviously never liked LiMux and tried to prevent it by offering very cheap licences. The city decided to carry out the project anyway. After some initial difficulties the project was successful and saved the city a lot of money. While it's hard to assess how much money was saved exactly, this should give an idea: Currently half the computers used by the city administration have a CPU frequency of 500 MHz or below, and most have 256 MB of RAM or less. But today CSU is stronger, and Microsoft has gained additional leverage by moving its German seat to Munich (from nearby Unterschleißheim) - a decision in which the current mayor (SPD) was involved.

Part of the reason CSU gets support from computer users in the city administration is that the users do not have administrator rights on their computers. This is of course by design rather than a defect of Linux. However, it is a defect of Windows that large organisations often have to grant administrator rights to their users because often the simplest things don't work properly on Windows without them, with no reasonable workarounds that don't involve a lot of work by system administrators. So in a sense the users are right to complain about Linux: It prevents them from getting rights they shouldn't have on their work computers in the first place!

Butterflies, silly! Obligatory xkcd

[daboochmeister]

Obligatory: https://xkcd.com/378/