Standardized Tests Blamed, Asian Students Ignored In Google-Gallup K-12 CS Study

theodp writes: According to a study released Thursday by Google and Gallup, standardized tests may be holding back the next generation of computer programmers. The Google-Gallup Searching for Computer Science: Access and Barriers in U.S. K-12 Education report (PDF) found that the main reason given by a "comprehensive but not representative" sample of 9,693 K-12 principals and 1,865 school district superintendents in the U.S. for their schools not offering computer science "is the limited time they have to devote to classes that are not tied to testing requirements." Which makes one wonder if Google now views Bill Gates as part of the problem and/or part of the solution of K-12 CS education. The Google-Gallup report also explores race/ethnicity differences to access and learning opportunities among White, Black and Hispanic students — but not Asian students — a curious omission considering that Google's own Diversity Disclosure shows that 35% of its U.S. tech workforce is Asian, making it by far the most overrepresented race/ethnicity group at Google when compared to the U.S. K-12 public school population. Which raises the question: Why would the Google-Gallup study ignore the access and learning opportunities of the race/ethnicity subgroup that has enjoyed the greatest success at Google? Not unsurprisingly, the Google-Gallup report winds up by concluding that what U.S. K-12 education really needs is more CS cowbell.

Comments

Apple, Google, and MS

[turkeydance]

will fund their agendas, not the school district's.

Because Asians are successful.

[Anonymous Coward]

It ruins the narrative if you include them.

I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[russotto]

US primary and secondary schools are good largely at smothering any love of learning or a subject that children have. Like to read? Here's a bunch of dull books you are required to read and give a report on. Like math? Here's a billion problems to work on, and don't dare sneak a peak ahead in the book to find the easy way (or write a program on your computer to solve them). Interested in history? Here it is in the driest form possible, please regurgitate on command.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[ShanghaiBill]

Like to read? Here's a bunch of dull books you are required to read and give a report on.

At least in California, it doesn't work that way. The kids are required to earn a certain number of reading "AR points" each week, but they can read pretty much any books they like. 95% of the books in the public library are in the system. My son likes to read science books. My daughter likes to read trashy novels with shirtless guys on the cover. The schools are fine with either.

Like math? Here's a billion problems to work on, and don't dare sneak a peak ahead in the book to find the easy way (or write a program on your computer to solve them).

No, it doesn't work like that at all, at least in California. Much of the math is taught on-line and self-paced. Solving problems with the computer is actually encouraged, and the programming classes are often integrated with the math curriculum.

Let me guess: You actually don't have kids, you have no idea what the public schools are teaching, or how they teach it, and everything you know about "Common Core", you learned from Donald Trump. Right?

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Etherwalk]

No, it doesn't work like that at all, at least in California. Much of the math is taught on-line and self-paced. Solving problems with the computer is actually encouraged, and the programming classes are often integrated with the math curriculum.

Let me guess: You actually don't have kids, you have no idea what the public schools are teaching, or how they teach it, and everything you know about "Common Core", you learned from Donald Trump. Right?

What you describe is so radically different than what we grew up with and than what I've heard described by non-California parents that it is difficult to believe it is the norm rather than you happening to live in a neighborhood with a very good school. It sounds like your public schools have basically gone Montessori.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Ol Olsoc]

My son likes to read science books. My daughter likes to read trashy novels with shirtless guys on the cover. The schools are fine with either.

In postmodern America, reading trashy novels with bare chested men on teh cover is the exact equivalent of readng science books.

Literary porn is still porn.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Ol Olsoc]

I'm in California and IMHO the way they are teaching math in elementary school sucks. Working on a computer is a distraction and it actually makes it harder to learn when solving the problem takes a few steps. My son can solve things like mixed fraction operations much faster on paper than trying to do it on a computer as his teach was trying to have the class do.

I don't know if this is universal, but I was blessed to be in the very last class to learn how to use slide rules in my school. Before that, I thought I just stunk at math. But after seeing the slide rule, and after a few operations with it, it was like a big bank of switches closed in my brain. I recall muttering when it hit.

After that, my math related grades went way up - even without using the slide rule. Something about the mechanical relationships on the rule, or something just made it click for me. Also the bit of mental gymnastics, since you needed to work with powers or notation.P Dunno if it would work for everyone, but sure changed my life. Seems so archaic, but just something about them.

I still keep and use a slide rule in the garage. Only problem is I can't figure out where the batteries are for it...

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[ShanghaiBill]

Literary porn is still porn.

Sure, but it is also literature, while photographic porn is anatomy. If a girl can improve her reading comprehension and strengthen her vocabulary by reading trashy novels, that that is a good thing.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[serviscope_minor]

Well, I've had no experience with education in CA. I have bumped into a little in NM though. I was staying with a friend in NM and her son was having problems with math(s). I'm an engineer, I know a decent amount of maths, and I've even taught undergrad engineers mathematics at a well respected university. So I figured I'd offer.

And I did.

Holy Jesus H. Christ on a bike.

I can only conclude that there isn't a working mathemetician within about 6000 miles of the entire school system. It's this bizarre perverse mirror image of what maths actually is. It is beyond awful.

I mean sure they had their nice very fat full colour textbooks, complete with places to go online for more problems or some bizarro animations or something, lots of guff on "relevance" (as if), and nice little full colour and prettily drawn cheat sheets listing all the handy formula etc which could also be printed out in dead tree form.

On and there were lots of problems graded carefully in terms of difficulty and etc etc.

The trouble is, what was missing from the whole circus show was... the maths.

The poor kid was awfully, terribly confused. Because nothing made any sense. It was all presented as a collection of "facts" and "rules" that you then have to "apply" to problem after problem.

The whole concept of thinking or reasoning or working out is utterly absent (first principles? what's that?). The idea seemed to be to identify the fact to apply (by magic? guessing?) then apply it to reach the answer.

Proof? What's a proof? The entire concept of proving things was uttely absent from the whole thing. Oh and jesus, the utter obsession with notation pedantry is just depressing and distracts from the whole point.

I remember one particularly curious "problem" which was a hideously bastardised cersion of triangle centroids. Except instead of proving it (it's an interesting theorem), they had to verify it in coordinate geometry using the "length rule". Googling the "length rule" reveals a bunch of education pages, not Wikipedia or Mathworld. School maths is always a bad sign. Turns out it's just a complicatified version of Pythagoras Theorem.

Turns out further that they've only ever been presented with that theorem as a fact to memorise and "apply". He had *no* idea it wasn't a fundemental thing to remember and that one could prove it with a couple of pictures.

The entire course seemed to be like this. It was beyond awful. Sure some kids get it, perhaps because the underlying patterns in maths are so strong and so elegant that it's almost impossible to suppress them. Others are exceptionally good at mindless rote memorisation that they get by. For everyone else it's some kind of purgatory.

Now as for tech with self pacing and online lectures and whatnot is all pointless if the underlying material is fundementally broken. What's needed as far as I can tell in the cases I've seen is the whole thing to be burned to the ground and rebuilt from scratch. Programming classes integrated, or at least substantially nearby is a good idea if they're done in a remotely reasonable way. I self taught myself about 3D rotations and projection to do graphics for instance when I was a kid, and didn't even realise I was "learning maths".

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[serviscope_minor]

Ooh looks like we have a literature snob.

Literature is another thing that's taught awfully badly in schools. I only started to understand criticism of it in my early-mid thirties, partly because of the abuse foisted on the topic by my schooling.

Studying nothing but classics is actually a terrible idea IMO. There are all sorts of rules of literature that can be broken by sufficiently skilled authors, for example. If you study nothing but the very best, it's almost impossible to figure out what the rules are, why they're there and in fact how the very skilled authors have broken them in an acceptable way. Oh and because they're classics they're suposed to be good and so you're not really meant to say much bad about them.

Terrible terrible idea. Now, some kids are smart enough and good enough with language that they figure it out. For everyone else it's about as bizarre and nonsensical as the maths teaching.

It's actually far, far more instructive to read and think about and critique less good books. By seeing the mistakes those authors make, and how they abuse rules of composition in ways that don't work is far, far more instructive.

Oh and while you're at it, why don't you list your hobbies too so the entire internet can pick out what you do in your leisure time as pointless.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Solandri]

It's actually far, far more instructive to read and think about and critique less good books. By seeing the mistakes those authors make, and how they abuse rules of composition in ways that don't work is far, far more instructive.

Exactly. For a visual analogy, if you see a movie with good visual effects, you come out thinking that looked really good, without really understanding why it looked good. If you see a movie with bad visual effects, you come out and talk with all your friends about how this effect looked so fake because of A, and that effect was bad because of B. Once you understand a bunch of stuff which doesn't work, what's left over is mostly stuff which does work.

One of the greatest benefits of digital photography has been the instantaneous feedback. You see something interesting and take a picture. The picture doesn't look like you imagined it would, so you tweak some settings on your camera and take another picture. You repeat this process noting which changes seemed to improve the picture the most. And eventually (hopefully) you arrive at the picture as you imagined it would look. You have to crawl through all that stuff which doesn't work in order to learn what does work. Being presented only with the final successful picture does very little to teach you how the photographer arrived at that picture.

Asian the most represented?

[the_humeister]

It's still 60% white. White doesn't count anymore?

Honestly, I don't understand what people want with these stats. Decrease the number of Asians and Europeans working at these places?

Re:Asian the most represented?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because in the name of "equality", your gender and skin color matter more than your technical ability.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[Spy Handler]

It didn't say "most represented". It said "most overrepresented".

If whites are 70% of the population and Asians 15%, but among computer programmers whites make up 60% and Asians are 30%, then Asians are overrepresented in that field. Comprende?

Re:Asian the most represented?

[tompaulco]

You don't get to claim discrimination when you're winning.

You're not winning when you represent 77.7% of the population, but only 60% representation at Google. Not that I am complaining. I say screw quotas and hire the best person for the job.

Re:Is Google hiring programmers w only a HS diplom

[trout007]

If you think about it Google could save a bunch of money giving their own standardized test to HS students the give them a few years of their own training in exchange for staying on for a certain number of years. The students will have no debt and you can pay them much less as a result.

Re:Is Google hiring programmers w only a HS diplom

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe Google could even buy children from families and keep them in some kind of cells while training and feeding them? That would probably save them even more money if the kids don't even know there is a world outside of Google.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[Intrepid imaginaut]

kids need to learn computer programming. it's a basic part of the world we live in now

Computers are a basic part of the world we live in, computer programming isn't, in the same way that people need to know how to drive a car but they don't need to know how to engineer one.

all serious countries in the world are ramping up computer science education.

Not really, no.

it's like it's 1800s and people are trying to get more engineering education... but some luddite crackpot assholes are screaming against that trend

People weren't trying to get more engineering education in the 1800s, the upper classes were receiving a classical education and the rest were learning trades, if they were fortunate.

why?

for what retarded agenda is this propaganda drumbeat against CS education on slashdot anyway?

i can't even understand the upside for resisting computer programming and computer science education

computers are evil? we're going to preserve jobs for old fat mediocre programmers by keeping kids dumb? some sort of conspiratard freak out?

is it just "companies are evil, and companies want more CS education, therefore, resist CS education... hurrr durrr"

what is the agenda exactly with this moronic propaganda on slashdot?

and slashdot, can you please just squelch this retarded puerile crap in the future please? it does not serve your audience, your site is being taken over by some wackjob fringe

is it just one useless douchebag troll with enough commitment to flood the submission queue with his mental diarrhea?

Programmers are expensive. They're expensive because programming is difficult and not many people take to it. Therefore the objection most have to corporate entities blatantly and openly trying to influence the national education system to ease the supply side of the equation could well be characterised as "stop wasting our kids time for greedy corporate pigs".

Simples, no?

Of course Asian students were ignored.

[bistromath007]

Admitting that any identity political issue is more complicated than cishet white men ruining everything is heresy.

Re:Newsflash.

[tompaulco]

Right. Like the BASIC programming language that I learned in senior high school is relevant in the job marketplace today. Whatever these students allegedly learn about "computer science" in K-12 will be obsolete before the ink on their "job-ready diploma" from Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, et. al. diploma is dry.

Teaching you BASIC taught you how to learn programming languages. High School is not there to teach you a trade, even College is not there to teach you a trade. A College diploma is a license to learn. But if they taught you one programming language it will be all the easier to pick up the next one.

Re: Newsflash.

[Jason Levine]

A college professor of mine once told the class that everything he taught us would be obsolete by the time we graduated. This didn't make the classes useless, though, because the core concepts he taught could be applied for the rest of our careers.

Nobody's saying that kids learning BASIC will go out and get jobs programming BASIC, but BASIC could lead to PASCAL which could lead to C which could lead to pretty much any other language and any of a hundred different jobs.

The stereotyping of Asians

[Taco Cowboy]

Let us be fair here --- if stereotyping the blacks and/or the Hispanics has become a serious social offense, why is stereotyping the Asians still permissible?

Don't you open that can of worm

[Taco Cowboy]

Back in 1992 the "White Men Can't Jump" movie ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt01... ) was made and all was cool

Will it be as cool to make "Black Men Can't Code" and/or "Women Can't Program" movies in today;s climate?

Re:The Indians place a high value on Education

[jedidiah]

> As for the Pakistanis, the Bangladeshis, the Afghans, the Indonesians and the Malays, their utmost priority is Islam, their religion

That's odd. I've known a number of Desis and Pakastanis in IT.

I even known a couple of genuine hadjis. It didn't seem to interfere with the job.

Apparently in Pakistan engineers and doctors have high prestige and IT gets lumped in with engineers.