Standardized Tests Blamed, Asian Students Ignored In Google-Gallup K-12 CS Study

theodp writes: According to a study released Thursday by Google and Gallup, standardized tests may be holding back the next generation of computer programmers. The Google-Gallup Searching for Computer Science: Access and Barriers in U.S. K-12 Education report (PDF) found that the main reason given by a "comprehensive but not representative" sample of 9,693 K-12 principals and 1,865 school district superintendents in the U.S. for their schools not offering computer science "is the limited time they have to devote to classes that are not tied to testing requirements." Which makes one wonder if Google now views Bill Gates as part of the problem and/or part of the solution of K-12 CS education. The Google-Gallup report also explores race/ethnicity differences to access and learning opportunities among White, Black and Hispanic students — but not Asian students — a curious omission considering that Google's own Diversity Disclosure shows that 35% of its U.S. tech workforce is Asian, making it by far the most overrepresented race/ethnicity group at Google when compared to the U.S. K-12 public school population. Which raises the question: Why would the Google-Gallup study ignore the access and learning opportunities of the race/ethnicity subgroup that has enjoyed the greatest success at Google? Not unsurprisingly, the Google-Gallup report winds up by concluding that what U.S. K-12 education really needs is more CS cowbell.

Comments

Apple, Google, and MS

[turkeydance]

will fund their agendas, not the school district's.

Because Asians are successful.

[Anonymous Coward]

It ruins the narrative if you include them.

Re:Because Asians are successful.

[AmiMoJo]

How would the narrative, by which presumably you mean the suggestion that there should be more opportunities for Black and Hispanic children to study CS at K-12 level, be "ruined" by not looking at Asians? Regardless of how many Asian kids have access to it, that doesn't change the fact that Black and Hispanic children are disadvantaged. Please explain exactly what you mean.

Note that the goal is not to drag successful groups down, it's to bring the disadvantaged ones up. So there would be little point doing that study, i.e. looking for a problem where none exists.

Re:Because Asians are successful.

[AmiMoJo]

For comparison as a baseline, and probably because idiots keep complaining that whites are disadvantaged.

Re:Because Asians are successful.

[jedidiah]

No. It contradicts the liberal narrative that the man is keeping the brother down.

Recent immigrants that come here and thrive make all under performing lower class types that are already here look bad. It makes it easier to come to the conclusion that you can determine your own destiny and don't need to be a ward of the state.

Re:Because Asians are successful.

[mypassis1234]

If you're going to compare asian immigrants to blacks and hispanics, you have to consider the filters applied. Asian immigrants have the means and desire to get here, and for the most part, they're not coming from war-torn hell holes.

That said, I can and do ask my own community to work harder. As a hispanic, I encourage us to look at the advantages of asian tiger-moms (note there's some disadvantages here too, but on average we can do better), and quite getting girls pregnant before we can afford it.

But for everyone, I'd encourage us all to think of it like this. If we're all neighbors, then we're actually teammates to a degree. Consider that the more poor your neighbors are, the more likely you'll get robbed. The better you and your neighbors do, the higher our whole standard of living gets. If we're on a team, and we are the player doing poorly, we should focus on doing better, working harder. If we're the player doing well, we should keep doing well, but also spend some energy helping the teammates not doing well. Encouragement helps in almost all situations (unless you're pissing people off), and costs no energy (it usually actually creates energy). Discouragement is the opposite.

I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[russotto]

US primary and secondary schools are good largely at smothering any love of learning or a subject that children have. Like to read? Here's a bunch of dull books you are required to read and give a report on. Like math? Here's a billion problems to work on, and don't dare sneak a peak ahead in the book to find the easy way (or write a program on your computer to solve them). Interested in history? Here it is in the driest form possible, please regurgitate on command.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[ShanghaiBill]

Like to read? Here's a bunch of dull books you are required to read and give a report on.

At least in California, it doesn't work that way. The kids are required to earn a certain number of reading "AR points" each week, but they can read pretty much any books they like. 95% of the books in the public library are in the system. My son likes to read science books. My daughter likes to read trashy novels with shirtless guys on the cover. The schools are fine with either.

Like math? Here's a billion problems to work on, and don't dare sneak a peak ahead in the book to find the easy way (or write a program on your computer to solve them).

No, it doesn't work like that at all, at least in California. Much of the math is taught on-line and self-paced. Solving problems with the computer is actually encouraged, and the programming classes are often integrated with the math curriculum.

Let me guess: You actually don't have kids, you have no idea what the public schools are teaching, or how they teach it, and everything you know about "Common Core", you learned from Donald Trump. Right?

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Etherwalk]

No, it doesn't work like that at all, at least in California. Much of the math is taught on-line and self-paced. Solving problems with the computer is actually encouraged, and the programming classes are often integrated with the math curriculum.

Let me guess: You actually don't have kids, you have no idea what the public schools are teaching, or how they teach it, and everything you know about "Common Core", you learned from Donald Trump. Right?

What you describe is so radically different than what we grew up with and than what I've heard described by non-California parents that it is difficult to believe it is the norm rather than you happening to live in a neighborhood with a very good school. It sounds like your public schools have basically gone Montessori.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[CQDX]

Like to read? Here's a bunch of dull books you are required to read and give a report on.

At least in California, it doesn't work that way. The kids are required to earn a certain number of reading "AR points" each week, but they can read pretty much any books they like. 95% of the books in the public library are in the system. My son likes to read science books. My daughter likes to read trashy novels with shirtless guys on the cover. The schools are fine with either.

Like math? Here's a billion problems to work on, and don't dare sneak a peak ahead in the book to find the easy way (or write a program on your computer to solve them).

No, it doesn't work like that at all, at least in California. Much of the math is taught on-line and self-paced. Solving problems with the computer is actually encouraged, and the programming classes are often integrated with the math curriculum.

Let me guess: You actually don't have kids, you have no idea what the public schools are teaching, or how they teach it, and everything you know about "Common Core", you learned from Donald Trump. Right?

I'm in California and IMHO the way they are teaching math in elementary school sucks. Working on a computer is a distraction and it actually makes it harder to learn when solving the problem takes a few steps. My son can solve things like mixed fraction operations much faster on paper than trying to do it on a computer as his teach was trying to have the class do. Also the schools aren't spending enough time on subjects and giving enough problems to master a topic. They keep jumping around; I think they call it spiraling. Both my boys were falling behind until I enrolled them in a private after school program that gives a respectable amout of math homework and they don't advance until they demonstrate competency. This program essentially teaches math the way I was taught decades ago.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[zkiwi34]

Odd, that California isn't how you describe it at all. I am therefore presuming you mean some form of non-traditional school, that or its no where the major metro areas, or the powers that be have not noticed.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[ganjadude]

what he describes is pretty much how it was for me and i only graduated in 2003 in NYS. have things really changed that much in 12 years?? because he hit the nail on the head

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Your frustration is due to some fundamental misunderstanding about the role of the schools. You seem to think the aim of the school system is to inculcate some deep love for knowledge, induce great free thinking, foster creativity, yada yada yada...

No sir/madam. The purpose of school system is to produce lots of people who would do boring, uninspiring, mindless things day in day out. Creative free thinking people cause trouble, question set ways of doing things and generally make things rough by rocking the boat. Yes, there is some need for creative thinking problem solving people. But a few that maintain their creativity despite the school system are enough.

This is what free market is thinking and this is how it has structured incentives and people and schools are shaped by the invisible hand.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[ShanghaiBill]

Odd, that California isn't how you describe it at all.

So you have kids in California public schools? What city? What grade? Are you saying that your kids don't participate in the AR reading program, and don't use computers for math?

I am therefore presuming you mean some form of non-traditional school, that or its no where the major metro areas, or the powers that be have not noticed.

This is a standard public school in San Jose, the third biggest city in the state.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[ShanghaiBill]

have things really changed that much in 12 years?

From what I have seen, yes. My daughter is 5 years older than my son, and things have changed drastically in the last 5 years. The modern AR Reading program is only two years old. Before that, it included only a tiny percentage of children's book in print. Today it is comprehensive. Self-paced math, and "flipped classrooms" for math, are also new.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Ol Olsoc]

My son likes to read science books. My daughter likes to read trashy novels with shirtless guys on the cover. The schools are fine with either.

In postmodern America, reading trashy novels with bare chested men on teh cover is the exact equivalent of readng science books.

Literary porn is still porn.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[ShanghaiBill]

I'm in California and IMHO the way they are teaching math in elementary school sucks. Working on a computer is a distraction

This is the crux of the problem with education reform. No matter what you do, someone will complain. First, Russotto was complaining that kids can't work ahead. I pointed out that that is wrong, and in many public schools the kids can work ahead at their own pace. Then you complain that that is a bad thing, and the kids should go back to drills with pencil and paper.

For the record, I very much disagree with you. Recent changes in California public schools have been very much for the better. Why should my kid be penalized because your kid is dumb? Your kid should get some remedial help, but that is no reason to hold others back.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Ol Olsoc]

I'm in California and IMHO the way they are teaching math in elementary school sucks. Working on a computer is a distraction and it actually makes it harder to learn when solving the problem takes a few steps. My son can solve things like mixed fraction operations much faster on paper than trying to do it on a computer as his teach was trying to have the class do.

I don't know if this is universal, but I was blessed to be in the very last class to learn how to use slide rules in my school. Before that, I thought I just stunk at math. But after seeing the slide rule, and after a few operations with it, it was like a big bank of switches closed in my brain. I recall muttering when it hit.

After that, my math related grades went way up - even without using the slide rule. Something about the mechanical relationships on the rule, or something just made it click for me. Also the bit of mental gymnastics, since you needed to work with powers or notation.P Dunno if it would work for everyone, but sure changed my life. Seems so archaic, but just something about them.

I still keep and use a slide rule in the garage. Only problem is I can't figure out where the batteries are for it...

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[ganjadude]

cool, its nice to see something changing for the better. especially when all my teacher friends are doing nothing but complaining about how bad CC math is

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[ShanghaiBill]

Literary porn is still porn.

Sure, but it is also literature, while photographic porn is anatomy. If a girl can improve her reading comprehension and strengthen her vocabulary by reading trashy novels, that that is a good thing.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Ol Olsoc]

Literary porn is still porn.

Sure, but it is also literature, while photographic porn is anatomy. If a girl can improve her reading comprehension and strengthen her vocabulary by reading trashy novels, that that is a good thing.

oooookay..... we be walking, yeah we be walking.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[alvinrod]

so what's a better way?

Give 'em a shovel and have them dig a ditch or do some other kind of shit labor. I did enough of it when I was young that I wanted to spend as much time learning as possible so that I wouldn't have to do that kind of work ever again.

I think the school system needs a shakeup and I'd like to see a system that abolishes the idea of grade-level entirely. Treat it like college where every subject area has its own progression and allow the kids to find what they enjoy and excel at instead of being stuck with the collective lowest common denominator for everything. If a kid is good at math or reading they can move ahead in those classes faster, whereas if they aren't, they don't get held back in everything else or moved on to the next level when they aren't ready.

I think if you provide a system that keeps students challenged and doesn't leave them either hopelessly lost or disinterested because the content is too trivial that it would go a long way towards improving education.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

Few people like doing stuff that they're _told_ to do, _especially_ kids. Looking back, all the books I was told to read were actually really great. But I almost never read them, or only pretended to read them. I ignored math because I never found it challenging, and I never really understood what it was good for. (I worked through my entire 5th grade math book the first couple of weeks of school. That was the last time, sadly, during adolescence I took math seriously.)

And I seriously doubt schools smother any love of a subject. If you love a particular subject, the curriculum is at worst boring, not smothering.

Are there better ways to teach? Of course. In my gifted class (just one period, not the whole day) in high school the teacher used a college Great Books curriculum. The curriculum involves assigning an excerpt or chapter out of a classic work of literature. The next day you discuss the work. The teacher uses the Socratic method where she never provides any answers, and only rarely does she offer her own opinion. Rather she asks leading questions, and the class either slowly arrives at an answer or analysis, or the question is simply left unanswered.

I took a seminar in law school which used the same method. All of law school technically uses the socratic, of course, but this particular professor went to St. Johns College for undergraduate, where the entire degree program is founded on the Great Books methodology. That professor literally _never_ answered anything, either in private or in class. I had inklings of some of his personal opinions because of his scholarly work, but you would _never_ guess his legal or political bent from his interaction with students. And I _loved_ that seminar.

But you know what? It doesn't scale! You can't use the method to teach a class of 20 or 30 students. A 10:1 student ratio is probably near the maximum. And for subjects like math and science it would require substantially more investment in time (for teachers) and equipment (labs).

There are programs which use curriculums somewhat similar to this: Montessori, Waldorf, etc. Either put your kid in a nice private school, or work with your kid in the evenings. The benefit of doing this is you can build his enthusiasm for the traditional curriculum. The Great Books and Socratic methods of teaching have a way of teaching the kid that _all_ knowledge matters. If you do it correctly, he'll draw upon everything he's ever learned in regular class. And he'll return to school with a new found appreciation for the value of seemingly droll and pointless facts and rules he'll have to chew through. (More importantly, ideally he'll be able to spot inconsistencies and errors in what he's being taught, which is often the fascinating way to learn a subject; whereas some smart kids see these errors and tune everything out, drawing the wrong conclusion that none of it is worth paying attention to. Kids need to be given the analytic tools to make lemonade out of lemons, because let's face it most of life _and_ school is pretty sour.)

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[dryeo]

so what's a better way?
wander around and learn as you want? most kids will do nothing. autodidactics are rare

It actually can work pretty well, especially if you give the kids an equal say in running things. They'll fart around for a bit and then get interested in something and then discover a need to know the uninteresting stuff. The would be carpenter suddenly discovers that he needs math and flies through it kind of thing. Note that you will not produce people who will put up with the abuse that many white collar jobs come with. Summerhill is one of the most famous and it is worth reading one of the books about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[serviscope_minor]

Well, I've had no experience with education in CA. I have bumped into a little in NM though. I was staying with a friend in NM and her son was having problems with math(s). I'm an engineer, I know a decent amount of maths, and I've even taught undergrad engineers mathematics at a well respected university. So I figured I'd offer.

And I did.

Holy Jesus H. Christ on a bike.

I can only conclude that there isn't a working mathemetician within about 6000 miles of the entire school system. It's this bizarre perverse mirror image of what maths actually is. It is beyond awful.

I mean sure they had their nice very fat full colour textbooks, complete with places to go online for more problems or some bizarro animations or something, lots of guff on "relevance" (as if), and nice little full colour and prettily drawn cheat sheets listing all the handy formula etc which could also be printed out in dead tree form.

On and there were lots of problems graded carefully in terms of difficulty and etc etc.

The trouble is, what was missing from the whole circus show was... the maths.

The poor kid was awfully, terribly confused. Because nothing made any sense. It was all presented as a collection of "facts" and "rules" that you then have to "apply" to problem after problem.

The whole concept of thinking or reasoning or working out is utterly absent (first principles? what's that?). The idea seemed to be to identify the fact to apply (by magic? guessing?) then apply it to reach the answer.

Proof? What's a proof? The entire concept of proving things was uttely absent from the whole thing. Oh and jesus, the utter obsession with notation pedantry is just depressing and distracts from the whole point.

I remember one particularly curious "problem" which was a hideously bastardised cersion of triangle centroids. Except instead of proving it (it's an interesting theorem), they had to verify it in coordinate geometry using the "length rule". Googling the "length rule" reveals a bunch of education pages, not Wikipedia or Mathworld. School maths is always a bad sign. Turns out it's just a complicatified version of Pythagoras Theorem.

Turns out further that they've only ever been presented with that theorem as a fact to memorise and "apply". He had *no* idea it wasn't a fundemental thing to remember and that one could prove it with a couple of pictures.

The entire course seemed to be like this. It was beyond awful. Sure some kids get it, perhaps because the underlying patterns in maths are so strong and so elegant that it's almost impossible to suppress them. Others are exceptionally good at mindless rote memorisation that they get by. For everyone else it's some kind of purgatory.

Now as for tech with self pacing and online lectures and whatnot is all pointless if the underlying material is fundementally broken. What's needed as far as I can tell in the cases I've seen is the whole thing to be burned to the ground and rebuilt from scratch. Programming classes integrated, or at least substantially nearby is a good idea if they're done in a remotely reasonable way. I self taught myself about 3D rotations and projection to do graphics for instance when I was a kid, and didn't even realise I was "learning maths".

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[serviscope_minor]

Ooh looks like we have a literature snob.

Literature is another thing that's taught awfully badly in schools. I only started to understand criticism of it in my early-mid thirties, partly because of the abuse foisted on the topic by my schooling.

Studying nothing but classics is actually a terrible idea IMO. There are all sorts of rules of literature that can be broken by sufficiently skilled authors, for example. If you study nothing but the very best, it's almost impossible to figure out what the rules are, why they're there and in fact how the very skilled authors have broken them in an acceptable way. Oh and because they're classics they're suposed to be good and so you're not really meant to say much bad about them.

Terrible terrible idea. Now, some kids are smart enough and good enough with language that they figure it out. For everyone else it's about as bizarre and nonsensical as the maths teaching.

It's actually far, far more instructive to read and think about and critique less good books. By seeing the mistakes those authors make, and how they abuse rules of composition in ways that don't work is far, far more instructive.

Oh and while you're at it, why don't you list your hobbies too so the entire internet can pick out what you do in your leisure time as pointless.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Dog-Cow]

Given your apparent lack of reading comprehension, I will conclude that you are not intelligent enough to contribute meaningfully to the conversation.

The GP never advocated hard labor. Setting up a straw man is horrible debating style, and what's worse, I don't believe for a moment that you think it's a straw man. You are that stupid.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Opportunist]

Rote memorization IS what schools are about today. You are not supposed to understand. You are not supposed to deduct it yourself. And sure as fuck you are not supposed to question it.

There is actually a very good reason for this: It's easier to teach. And most importantly, easier to test. It's also much easier for kids who can sponge (soak up the crap - pour out the crap at the test - no need to retain anything, just rinse and repeat for the next subject). Most of all, though, since you don't have to build on any foundation, you can pick up anywhere. And that means that kids who did not understand the foundations are not going to ruin your test score averages.

I guess that's called "no child left behind". Everyone is on the same crappy level that way.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[alvinrod]

Do you always put words in other people's mouths like that? You may want to reread what I've written instead of making wild assumptions and accusations.

What I'm saying is that if a kid sits around playing Xbox all day, school will seem less appealing in comparison than if you have to go pick rock out of a field or actually do some work. Doing well in school and going to math competitions or other stuff like that meant that I got to miss doing those chores and thankfully my parents were quite encouraging when it came to such things.

If you think that's not a good idea, you're welcome to that opinion, but to misconstrue my point and then call me a moron isn't very productive.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[jedidiah]

We've had similar problems outside of California.

Math education is uniformly abominable in the US and always has been. It was that way when I was a kid. Teachers don't care. If they do the rest of the machine will override them and grind them down.

A ghetto kid could make a miraculous turnaround do to the effort of some European college do-gooder and be slapped back down by his own kind. The brothers don't really need the help of the man. They can keep each other down all on their own.

There is no real interest in the US populace having a clue. It would destroy the consumer culture if people were numerate. Perpetrating a fear of math suits the ruling class.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Solandri]

The poor kid was awfully, terribly confused. Because nothing made any sense. It was all presented as a collection of "facts" and "rules" that you then have to "apply" to problem after problem.

The whole concept of thinking or reasoning or working out is utterly absent (first principles? what's that?). The idea seemed to be to identify the fact to apply (by magic? guessing?) then apply it to reach the answer.

Yeah, that's the big difference I'm noticing from when I went to school and when I'm tutoring my nephews and nieces. When I was in K-12, they taught basic concepts and how you could build and apply them to solve problems and develop more complex concepts.

The kids I'm tutoring now are taught methods. If you have this type of problem, the method you use to solve it is to plug in this number here, that number there, and out pops the answer. No attempt is made to explain why the method works, or why this number has to go here, or why that number has to go there. Our educational system is putting a generation of kids on a career path where they'll only be qualified to push buttons in a specific pattern to solve problems, without understanding what the buttons do nor why that particular pattern of pushing buttons solves the problem. Never mind how to design such a machine with buttons.

From what I gather, the teachers don't have much choice in it too. It's the teaching method sanctioned by the school district, so they're required to teach it that way. It makes me think the people coming up with these teaching methods don't really understand the topic in the first place, and are imposing their naive approach to tackling something they don't understand onto all the kids. It seriously makes me consider home-schooling my kids or finding a decent private school.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Solandri]

It's actually far, far more instructive to read and think about and critique less good books. By seeing the mistakes those authors make, and how they abuse rules of composition in ways that don't work is far, far more instructive.

Exactly. For a visual analogy, if you see a movie with good visual effects, you come out thinking that looked really good, without really understanding why it looked good. If you see a movie with bad visual effects, you come out and talk with all your friends about how this effect looked so fake because of A, and that effect was bad because of B. Once you understand a bunch of stuff which doesn't work, what's left over is mostly stuff which does work.

One of the greatest benefits of digital photography has been the instantaneous feedback. You see something interesting and take a picture. The picture doesn't look like you imagined it would, so you tweak some settings on your camera and take another picture. You repeat this process noting which changes seemed to improve the picture the most. And eventually (hopefully) you arrive at the picture as you imagined it would look. You have to crawl through all that stuff which doesn't work in order to learn what does work. Being presented only with the final successful picture does very little to teach you how the photographer arrived at that picture.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[mjwx]

I'm in California and IMHO the way they are teaching math in elementary school sucks. Working on a computer is a distraction

This is the crux of the problem with education reform. No matter what you do, someone will complain. First, Russotto was complaining that kids can't work ahead. I pointed out that that is wrong, and in many public schools the kids can work ahead at their own pace. Then you complain that that is a bad thing, and the kids should go back to drills with pencil and paper.

For the record, I very much disagree with you. Recent changes in California public schools have been very much for the better. Why should my kid be penalized because your kid is dumb? Your kid should get some remedial help, but that is no reason to hold others back.

And that is pretty much how it works in countries that have functioning education systems.

Kids who need help get given extra remedial classes. Kids who are bright get sent to advanced classes. When I was in years 6 and 7 I was doing maths at a high school level... This meant attending maths classes at a high school.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Ol Olsoc]

Ooh looks like we have a literature snob.

Nonsense, my reply was that I was giving up on the argument, and if in California pornograsphy is considerd acceptable school reading, well school might just be a little more exciting for the kids. Read porn it will expand your mind.

or something.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Ol Olsoc]

Exactly. For a visual analogy, if you see a movie with good visual effects, you come out thinking that looked really good, without really understanding why it looked good. If you see a movie with bad visual effects, you come out and talk with all your friends about how this effect looked so fake because of A, and that effect was bad because of B. Once you understand a bunch of stuff which doesn't work, what's left over is mostly stuff which does work.

So my photography professors in college, who wnated me to know what the rules of composition and content and processing were before I broke those rules were actually completely wrong.

It's like saying that to be allowed to watch "House", you have to watch every episode of Here comes Honey Boo-Boo, then Keeping up with the Kardashians, and then Midget Transgender Swamp Logging Hillbillies (I have that one registered, TLC, so hands off!)

And lest someone tells that House is shit, that touches on a big hole in your process. What is shit? Who decides what is shit?. For instance, I think Hemingway is shit. Others like his stuff. To me, it's like reading something a fifth grader wrote. To others, the simplicity and directness attract them. So in reading "classics" I'm already reading stuff I don't like. And some others hate what I like.

So you already have who decides what is bad, and then going out of your way to completely waste everyone's time by purposely forcing kids to read ther consensus bad shit before they are allowed to read anything good.

I mean seriously, I would be pissed off if my kids were taught wrong answers to math questions, or in this [photography case, forced to look at photo after photo of muddy out of focus phoots of nothing before they are allowed to look at any good ones, or maybe even force them to take bad pictures first?

As an experiment some years ago, I did some photo essays while breaking the rules on every photo on purpose. Meh. maybe one interesting photo out of the bunch. Funny thing is, I accidentally put some composition into it. Not golden mean stuff, but a big white heron flying by with it's wings slightly backlit at full extension. The heron is dead center of the photo, but there are tall grasses, a bit out of focus - forming a sort of triangle that grab your eyes, and forces them right on the heron at their apex. A happy accident out of the bunch.

One of the greatest benefits of digital photography has been the instantaneous feedback. You see something interesting and take a picture. The picture doesn't look like you imagined it would, so you tweak some settings on your camera and take another picture.

Why didn't the picture look good? If you have no idea except that you didn't like it, you have a bit of a problem.

But yes, the feedback is very nice. I use it for things like exposure, or depth of field control because stopping down might not be quite so precise. But the image now - that was in my mind before hand. And back in the days of chem processing, it was always a little nerve wracking till you got the images back.

As my professor noted, good photos seldom happen by accident (we called them photos then, pretty quaint)

You repeat this process noting which changes seemed to improve the picture the most. And eventually (hopefully) you arrive at the picture as you imagined it would look.

Trying to do sports or anything high speed won't work with this keep shooting until you get one that works. business. Much better to have some idea of both the technique and the art.

This is akin to the old fashion photography business of taking 200 rolls of film to get one image. You announce to the world that you got lucky. Never cared for that,

You have to crawl through all that stuff which doesn't work in order to learn what does work. Being presented only with the final successful picture does ve

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Cinnamon Beige]

Rote memorization IS what schools are about today. You are not supposed to understand. You are not supposed to deduct it yourself. And sure as fuck you are not supposed to question it.

There is actually a very good reason for this: It's easier to teach. And most importantly, easier to test. It's also much easier for kids who can sponge (soak up the crap - pour out the crap at the test - no need to retain anything, just rinse and repeat for the next subject). Most of all, though, since you don't have to build on any foundation, you can pick up anywhere. And that means that kids who did not understand the foundations are not going to ruin your test score averages.

I guess that's called "no child left behind". Everyone is on the same crappy level that way.

It predates it by a lot, that's how my math textbooks were and I left public school before that hit. I was also an example of somebody who understood math well enough that the textbooks didn't bother me as much as bore the !@#$ out me--I don't think insisting anybody write proofs is good, I actually had an utterly lousy calc class that had you wanting to do proofs completely from memory for every question on the regular quizes. Proofs being shown, however, is actually pretty useful and utterly fascinating to watch--and it helps you understand why you actually need to know this material and how it links together.

Teaching math is hard, and the general view currently is that it's not actually necessary for a teacher to know the subject when teaching K12: they should merely know how to teach. The idea that knowing the material perhaps might make a difference, at least before high school, is somewhat revolutionary.

The other issue here, though, isn't that it's easier to test rote memorization--in fact, the most basic and (arguably) effective test with high validity and test-retest reliability is to simply give the person a task which requires outright the skills you're testing for--but rather that it's easier for the school system to game and keep its own bad behaviors from harming it. The test style I mentioned? It's pretty much the standard one in developmental psychology when studying when certain skills turn up, and it works pretty well. With a computerized test, you can also eliminate the need to have a human watching to see if the task was completed, though it'd still be very much pass/fail because there's really nothing between.

You can teach people to game multiple choice tests, especially ones not designed to show it (this takes skill), and I've taken some standardized tests where I'm not sure how else they expected somebody to pass them--certainly, knowing the subject didn't help one tiny bit, because it wasn't actually testing that. The questions were stuff like "Writer's favorite color," the answers were all fruits-not-sharing-names-with-colors, but that didn't matter because the short bit of writing that the question was allegedly about was about the birds and never mentioned the favorite color. (I got a perfect score on one where all the questions worked this way simply by picking the most PC answer.)

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Cinnamon Beige]

I'm in California and IMHO the way they are teaching math in elementary school sucks. Working on a computer is a distraction

This is the crux of the problem with education reform. No matter what you do, someone will complain. First, Russotto was complaining that kids can't work ahead. I pointed out that that is wrong, and in many public schools the kids can work ahead at their own pace. Then you complain that that is a bad thing, and the kids should go back to drills with pencil and paper.

For the record, I very much disagree with you. Recent changes in California public schools have been very much for the better. Why should my kid be penalized because your kid is dumb? Your kid should get some remedial help, but that is no reason to hold others back.

Actually, as somebody who's worked with learning math on computers? Proper display support is not common enough, and learning to do the basic stuff on pencil and paper without a calculator & doing so repeatedly can get you to the point where you will be able to do the calculations even while very out of it, which you're best off betting on having to do sometimes.

The other thing? Wolfram Alpha exists, and if your kids are lazy they're using it & if they're not bright enough to get why laziness doesn't pay long-term they're abusing it too. (I've found that for some bits of math, it provides better explanations than textbooks do, and a few I suspect are actually best explained in an animated form, possibly with an audio component--music and music theory might be the most reliable way to make math relevant and certainly the one least likely to be innocently bigoted.)

Honestly, I'd favor a hybrid--drills on any format that lets you easily carry them around to do at your own leisure (cell phone app and paper options should coexist), with computer checking so you can know if you're doing it right but not for grading them. Drills should be seen as a way to get practice and build confidence, and work on good habits as sometimes simply showing your steps can get you farther than merely plugging numbers from the problem into calculator and copying the output. I'm not even going to knock learning formulas--though I certainly would object to not teaching how to solve them for any value you want. If nothing else, it simplifies things. (Plug in values where you have them, solve for what you don't. see if you can determine a value for the remaining unknowns, repeat until at most one unknown remains--yes, defining one in terms of another is allowed for this.)

Of course, if you don't expect your kid to get into any particularly math-heavy STEM classes in college, a total lack of practice is not going to hurt too bad, but the more your kid needs math skills the more important practice can be. Paper-and-pencil particularly matters if they get into classes where showing their work is essential to getting credit--I had at least one professor where doing the right things to the wrong numbers only got you dings if and only if you showed your work.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[alvinrod]

Well you're already wrong about one point, so I suppose I can use the same shit tier logic you've applied in this case and just dismiss everything else you have to say. But I won't. Still with me or do I get another diatribe you'll likely spend more time typing up than just reading the rest of the post? Let's look at the first sentence:

Give 'em a shovel and have them dig a ditch or do some other kind of shit labor.

Seems pretty scary, and it probably would be if there weren't more.

I did enough of it when I was young that I wanted to spend as much time learning as possible so that I wouldn't have to do that kind of work ever again.

That seems to change the meaning enough. Now I can appreciate how easily a point can be misconstrued on the internet and bog knows I've done it enough times, but your own response, which if taken literally (another sin, but not so much different than your own) suggests you quit reading before you even read that second comment, which changes the context a little you must admit.

Please point out where I advocate hard labor instead of education. What I advocate is showing kids that without an education, life is going to be a lot of hard labor. If the only thing you do outside of school is mindless leisure, is it any surprise that school will be unappealing in comparison? I think my own father would have liked to have more of an education, but he didn't have much of a choice and while I won't delude myself to think I had to work as hard when I was younger as he did, I learned the importance and value of education, because I realized that not having one did not make for what I would consider a pleasant life.

The funny part about this is that some time ago I bothered to mark you as a friend when Slashdot introduced the system because I came to consider you interesting. Not someone I always agreed with, but someone who could make a good point and a reasoned argument.

What happened?

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Areyoukiddingme]

If a girl can improve her reading comprehension and strengthen her vocabulary by reading trashy novels...

If? Have you actually read one of those things? I have, basically on a dare, and I was assured by the woman who issued the challenge that it was typical of the genre. And there will be no vocabulary strengthening from trashy romance novels. They're apparently written using the apocryphal 700 words that newspapers are supposed to use. Wielders of extended vocabularies, they are not. With the exception of being excellent sources of synonyms for "breasts" and "penis". Somehow I don't think the children would have any trouble picking those up on their own, so I'm thinking the trashy novel is not a big win.

Re:I don't think K-12 CS is a good idea anyway

[Bengie]

You need a way to objectively measure a student's progression. How do you do this without any form of grading?

Asian the most represented?

[the_humeister]

It's still 60% white. White doesn't count anymore?

Honestly, I don't understand what people want with these stats. Decrease the number of Asians and Europeans working at these places?

Re:Asian the most represented?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because in the name of "equality", your gender and skin color matter more than your technical ability.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't get to claim discrimination when you're winning.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[Spy Handler]

It didn't say "most represented". It said "most overrepresented".

If whites are 70% of the population and Asians 15%, but among computer programmers whites make up 60% and Asians are 30%, then Asians are overrepresented in that field. Comprende?

Re: Asian the most represented?

[the_humeister]

Got it. So after we have "racial equality" in the tech field, we'll go after the other fields too right? Like medicine, law, petroleum, construction, fishing, etc?

Re: Asian the most represented?

[Spy Handler]

Who's we? The SJW (social justice warriors) behind these stories are a miniscule percentage of the population. Mainstream media loves them but nobody else really cares much.

Slashdot is heavily left-leaning but even here you will see very little support for affirmative action in hiring more black and hispanic programmers. Most liberals still have some sanity, the SJWs are a tiny fringe element.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[tompaulco]

You don't get to claim discrimination when you're winning.

You're not winning when you represent 77.7% of the population, but only 60% representation at Google. Not that I am complaining. I say screw quotas and hire the best person for the job.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[tompaulco]

What about the NBA.

The NBA is concerned about their representation as such, this is why they are working with expanding their profile as well as ensuring that communities perceive options besides sports and rap to get ahead. Beyond that they've funded the WNBA as well.

The NBA is working on their diversity problem by hiring whites and females for off-court and back office duties. However, the "talent" will continue to be black. This would basically be like Silicon Valley "fixing" it's diversity issues by hiring a bunch of African Americans for janitorial and lawn care services.
I'm just telling it like it is, not complaining, and I am no SJW. Hire the best person for the job. If African Americans are better than whites on the court, then hire them.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[Anonymous Coward]

He was referring to asians being 30% of the pool, which vastly outstrips the proportion of asians in the general public.

I can certainly see why asians would be over-represented, given they appear to be the only ethnic group (including whites) who seem to value education in this country. Though, I wonder if that statistic includes Indians.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[Taco Cowboy]

Because in the name of "equality", your gender and skin color matter more than your technical ability

In other words, the Asians, even those who came from India, are born with skin colors of the Caucasians?

Re: Asian the most represented?

[Opportunist]

Damn right. I'm a short white guy, the NBA discriminates against me! They claimed they don't want me 'cause I allegedly can't play, but I just know it's racial prejudice! Scandal! Where is the press when you need them?

Re:Asian the most represented?

[AmiMoJo]

What a bizarre conclusion. Here is Google trying to improve education for disadvantaged minorities, in order to get their technical ability up to scratch. And there you are complaining that technical ability isn't the primary concern.

The idea is to create more good candidates. There are only so many kids, so the only way to increase the pool of candidates is a forced breeding programme or trying to improve access for the disadvantaged ones (making the most of the available resource).

Nothing in what they are doing suggests that they consider skin colour more important than ability.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[AmiMoJo]

According to the linked graph, white people are overrepresented by about 16%. That certainly dispels the myth that white people are being discriminated against.

I wonder if the high number of Asians at Google could be due to Indians and Pakistanis, i.e. people educated in other countries rather than in the US school system.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean you're telling how you think it is, when the reality is that the NBA diversity program has the standard profile for the minorities and females in the back office and vendors, but then, that is a larger segment of people than the on-court professionals anyway. Probably more realistic for most people to pursue opportunities there.

But no, your platitude about hiring the best person for the job? You're naive if you think that's true. If it were, a name wouldn't have the impact that it does, but just being Max Power can open a ton of doors.

The reality is that opportunity is denied for a host of reasons, from education to connections, to simple perception of appearance.

Yeah, true absolute equality wouldn't be achievable without some radical egalitarian changes to society, but we can and should consider what we can do otherwise to make things better anyway.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[jedidiah]

Across the board, academic success is linked to the parents. Even in "poor" households, the parents are the driving force. You simply cannot fully outsource education. The parents have to care, or the kids likely will not.

All of the whining about social justice won't change prevailing cultural values within the populations you are trying to "liberate". Special programs and throwing money the problem won't either.

Re:Asian the most represented?

[LienRag]

So, 100% asian workforce in tech?

What is that?

[phantomfive]

I read the summary twice and still am not entirely sure what it's saying. To the submitter, theodp, Please, please, get this book and read it. It can only do you good.

Re:What is that?

[Hognoxious]

He's a blithering imbecile. You can be sure that he's either exaggerating, has totally misunderstood the issue, or is just plain making shit up.

Have Dice found a buyer yet? Hopefully he'll be be in the dumpster along with schwit1 (who might actually be the same person - they're both equally crap in similar ways).

Re:What is that?

[dadman]

I read the summary twice and still am not entirely sure what it's saying.

Thanks for pointing this out, I thought I was the only one who have to go over it a few times and still weren't sure what it is trying to say...

Is Google hiring programmers w only a HS diploma?

[CQDX]

Last I checked you had better have at least a BS from one of the top universities to get an interview and you're not getting into one of those unless you have good grades across the board and high test scores in one of the standardized entrance exams. Furthermore, they are only looking for self-starters, the kind of geeks that are self-taught would find any high school CS course extremely boring.

Is K-12 CS really necessary?

[Etherwalk]

How useful is K-12 Computer Science in terms of getting kids to go into the major? It's a huge unstated assumption that it is important to have people do CS in high school.

There are some courses where you really need a high school background to take a college course--math and music theory are the only two that really come to mind as "we assume you already know how to do some stuff and don't offer an intro class for people with no training in this subject."

Re:Is K-12 CS really necessary?

[zkiwi34]

You may be surprised to find that CS is pretty much alone in majors and minors at university that carry absolutely no pre-requisite or recommended program of study involving CS. Music, Arts, Natural Sciences, Languages, Engineering, they all require evidence of prior learning associated with the discipline. Not so CS. CS and Engineering schools care less if you have done CS, they want Calculus and Physics, not AP or IB CS and it is rare that they consider Junior College work with too much seriousness either.

That's what needs to be changed. If it isn't then the current wave of interest will wither as it has before.

Re:Is K-12 CS really necessary?

[russotto]

I just checked out the University of Maryland College Park (my alma mater) Computer Science program. They have no prerequisites in Calculus or Physics. In fact, they have no prerequisites (beyond general university entrance requirements) at all: "If you list Computer Science as your preferred major and are admitted to the university, you will start directly in our program."

There are 4 CS classes you can test out of (but without credits) if you do have previous experience; you can also test out of Calculus II. AP credit is accepted for Calculus I & II; IB for Calculus I.

Re:Is K-12 CS really necessary?

[jedidiah]

There are a lot of schools out there. Not all of them are going to be a total meat grinder. They vary from engineering to business with stops in between.

Re:Is Google hiring programmers w only a HS diplom

[trout007]

If you think about it Google could save a bunch of money giving their own standardized test to HS students the give them a few years of their own training in exchange for staying on for a certain number of years. The students will have no debt and you can pay them much less as a result.

I Think Maybe I've Heard Enough About This Topic

[r-diddly]

Google, Microsoft, Apple et al... We get it: you don't have enough (cheap) workers and it's ESSENTIAL that everyone on earth knows about it!

what is with this regular propaganda on slashdot?

[circletimessquare]

is this the same submitter who is always whining about computer science education?

kids need to learn computer programming. it's a basic part of the world we live in now

if you don't agree with that or you don't understand, you are dooming the usa to pathetic second rate status. all serious countries in the world are ramping up computer science education. this is the fucking future and is a pretty obvious step for anyone remotely aware

it's like it's 1800s and people are trying to get more engineering education... but some luddite crackpot assholes are screaming against that trend

why?

for what retarded agenda is this propaganda drumbeat against CS education on slashdot anyway?

i can't even understand the upside for resisting computer programming and computer science education

computers are evil? we're going to preserve jobs for old fat mediocre programmers by keeping kids dumb? some sort of conspiratard freak out?

is it just "companies are evil, and companies want more CS education, therefore, resist CS education... hurrr durrr"

what is the agenda exactly with this moronic propaganda on slashdot?

and slashdot, can you please just squelch this retarded puerile crap in the future please? it does not serve your audience, your site is being taken over by some wackjob fringe

is it just one useless douchebag troll with enough commitment to flood the submission queue with his mental diarrhea?

Re:Is Google hiring programmers w only a HS diplom

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe Google could even buy children from families and keep them in some kind of cells while training and feeding them? That would probably save them even more money if the kids don't even know there is a world outside of Google.

More CS cowbell?

[PopeRatzo]

the Google-Gallup report winds up by concluding that what U.S. K-12 education really needs is more CS cowbell.

Now it appears that the Slashdot editors are joining in with the cow trolling.

When I say "cow", you say, "moo".

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[PopeRatzo]

for what retarded agenda is this propaganda drumbeat against CS education on slashdot anyway?

It might be because people with CS degrees have entered the workforce and have realized that for people with CS majors, the tech industry is becoming the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory of the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Just because some tech field offers jobs today doesn't mean that it's going to offer careers ten years from now. The question is, do you want this as a career? Do you want to spend your time learning something that might not mean anything five years into your working life? A lot of people who work in tech are figuring out that for a lot of people, CS programs are bait and switch scams.

We're always going to need people who can weld, even if it's for artisanal products.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[Intrepid imaginaut]

kids need to learn computer programming. it's a basic part of the world we live in now

Computers are a basic part of the world we live in, computer programming isn't, in the same way that people need to know how to drive a car but they don't need to know how to engineer one.

all serious countries in the world are ramping up computer science education.

Not really, no.

it's like it's 1800s and people are trying to get more engineering education... but some luddite crackpot assholes are screaming against that trend

People weren't trying to get more engineering education in the 1800s, the upper classes were receiving a classical education and the rest were learning trades, if they were fortunate.

why?

for what retarded agenda is this propaganda drumbeat against CS education on slashdot anyway?

i can't even understand the upside for resisting computer programming and computer science education

computers are evil? we're going to preserve jobs for old fat mediocre programmers by keeping kids dumb? some sort of conspiratard freak out?

is it just "companies are evil, and companies want more CS education, therefore, resist CS education... hurrr durrr"

what is the agenda exactly with this moronic propaganda on slashdot?

and slashdot, can you please just squelch this retarded puerile crap in the future please? it does not serve your audience, your site is being taken over by some wackjob fringe

is it just one useless douchebag troll with enough commitment to flood the submission queue with his mental diarrhea?

Programmers are expensive. They're expensive because programming is difficult and not many people take to it. Therefore the objection most have to corporate entities blatantly and openly trying to influence the national education system to ease the supply side of the equation could well be characterised as "stop wasting our kids time for greedy corporate pigs".

Simples, no?

Testing and college prep get in the way

[readin]

As a parent with a spouse from a testing-intensive formal-education intensive culture I find myself running into the same problem at home. I want the kids to have time to explore things like programming and creative play. The spouse's attitude is that if it won't be tested and/or the college won't look at it then why bother?

Re:Testing and college prep get in the way

[phantomfive]

In 12 years, it is not hard to prepare enough to do well on the SAT/ACT. They don't even cover calculus. Get that out of the way in a few hours, then spend the rest of the time on more interesting things.

Re:Testing and college prep get in the way

[Anonymous Coward]

> The spouse's attitude is that if it won't be tested and/or the college won't look at it then why bother?

If they're really sharp, have them apply to MIT and work with the admissions office. My standard testing scores only barely made it, but the other work I'd already done more than covered the skills. And look for admissions officers from my generation, roughly 50 years old now. Getting good scores is great for colleges with computerized drones in the admissions in the admission's office, but when you can show that you *paid* for most of your own private high school education out of your own personal work, it makes them look twice.

Getting out there and make real connections with college staff, in programs for high school students or in charity groups hosted on campus, is also *amazing* grease to oil the wheels of the admissions machine. I did exactly that for the kids in the High School Studies Program who showed promise, and for kids who came to my lab and got involved in research young, and you can *bet* I tried to help them out in the bureaucracy. I even took a department secretary drinking to help one kid get better funding, because she knew the paperwork. The help was mostly loans, and he worked his ass off just like me to pay those off. The date with the secretary was fun, too!

Good programs for teaching math

[Etherwalk]

A good program will work for teaching math on the computer. There's a lot of bad educational software out there, but I remember learning algebra on a PCJr as a kid long before we ever got to it in school.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[circletimessquare]

supply and demand friend

that's all that exists as a valid force on this topic

if you resist education here (because keeping people dumb has always been a winning approach) they simply import workers form elsewhere or outsource the entire division

computer science is mind work. you can't control that, and to try to makes you a malicious fool in the company of some pretty vile assholes today and throughout history

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[circletimessquare]

supply and demand

that's all that exists as a valid force on this topic

if you resist education here (because keeping people dumb has always been a winning approach) they simply import workers form elsewhere or outsource the entire division

computer science is mind work. you can't control that, and to try to makes you a malicious fool in the company of some pretty vile assholes today and throughout history

Is it that they are Asian...

[davidwr]

... or is it that their parents encourage, empower, and outright pressure them into doing the very things that will make them more likely to enter a high-tech field?

You show me a 100 kids that live for 18+ years under a pressure-to-perform environment and I'll show you 100 kids that are generally less happy, better educated, and more likely to suffer burnout than their peers. Those that don't burn out or rebel in a self-destructive way will be much better prepared for "brain work" when they are in their mid-20s than their peers who weren't pressured so much. I'm not saying they will be happier, only that as a group, they will be better prepared for "brain work."

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Your vacuous comment addresses exactly nothing I've said. When you're done frothing at the mouth maybe try reading it again.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[PopeRatzo]

supply and demand friend

Supply and demand, but when? And where?

If you were training in 1998 to be a specialist in adapting computer systems to Y2K, you might have seen big demand. For a little while. But demand for a little while does not a career make.

computer science is mind work.

So was designing trebuchets in the months leading up to the development of modern artillery. After that, it was mind work that nobody needed.

Things are moving quickly. Learning to assemble cars might have looked like a great job if you wanted to work at the Saturn plant in the '90s. Today, those jobs are gone. Not because they're not making cars any more, but because they're not making them where you are.

When you're getting educated for a career in a late-stage capitalist economy, you have to be ready for more than just one type of job. CS degrees won't mean the same thing in a decade that they do today.

Of course Asian students were ignored.

[bistromath007]

Admitting that any identity political issue is more complicated than cishet white men ruining everything is heresy.

Re:Of course Asian students were ignored.

[fche]

And note the clever way in which the union-hated standardized-testing issue was dragged into the conversation as a bugaboo. "Of course we're racist and lazy ... we might do better if it wasn't for those infernal tests"..

Re:Of course Asian students were ignored.

[bistromath007]

That's a bit different, as standardized testing in its current form is one of the major issues. Have you seen what they're doing with them these days? It's horseshit. A public school education is literally worse than nothing at this point.

Re:Of course Asian students were ignored.

[fche]

"Have you seen what they're doing with them these days? It's horseshit."

Dunno, talking about common core stuff? Even then, the problem would be a *particular* standardized test rather than standardized testing per se.

"A public school education is literally worse than nothing"

Homeschooling is growing in popularity, and not just amongst the religiously inclined.

Leadership and Activities

[Etherwalk]

In 12 years, it is not hard to prepare enough to do well on the SAT/ACT. They don't even cover calculus. Get that out of the way in a few hours, then spend the rest of the time on more interesting things.

Getting into a good college isn't about testing--good testing is a necessary condition, not a sufficient one. You need to show that you are going to contribute to the community. You need to have lots of extracurriculars and serious leadership in some of them--and ideally in some volunteer group not connected to the school. Serious leadership and success in one is more impressive than having fifty groups with no leadership or success, but the basic idea is if the kid is curious and really applies himself at everything he does, he has a really great chance of getting in to a good school.

That includes grades and test scores, but they're not enough.

And better, if a kid does that then they learn *how*, and that gives them a richer life going forward.

Re:Leadership and Activities

[readin]

Some things you learn from participating in adult sanctioned and sponsored extra-curricular activities and organizations. But you also learn a lot from just going out in the world on your own and dealing with it. We sent a kid to live with his grandparents for a few weeks. He made friends. They went out in the neighborhood and explored. They climbed fences they weren't supposed to. They did the kind of stupid and somewhat risky stuff that parents hate but that boys should do. Had he stayed home he would have been busy taking classes, going to camps where he would be told what to do, and doing academic work. I think he learned far more at the grandparents' house. But it's not something that colleges will look at.

I agree that after-school activities are important. But there has to be more. A kid also has to have time to do unstructured things. He has to get into arguments with his friends and learn to sort it out (not have some adult come in and enforce a path to a solution). A kid has to develop confidence that he can handle things without a parent or teacher around.

There has to be a balance. You know your kids better than a university ever will. You shouldn't make yourself a proxy for the University where all your decisions are based on pleasing their admissions office rather than raising your kid to be the best person he can be. Of course the two goals should and will often overlap. But you have to keep your priorities straight.

Re:Leadership and Activities

[Etherwalk]

Yes, absolutely. I remember watching two brothers with serious schooling and psych problems figure out how to sail a small boat on their own. It was amazingly good for them and the kind of learning and experience that you would *never* get in a structured setting.

It should be the kid's choice what he does with his time, but the parent should be making some strong suggestions, basically get the kid in the habit of going to almost every group activity once and see what they like...

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[circletimessquare]

an education in anything can lead to a career that evaporates. ok

and?

what the fuck is your fucking point? why does that make any fucking difference on this topic?

i've seriously run into some weird clot of wackjobs here

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[circletimessquare]

it address what you said directly. reading comprehension/ basic cognition is failing you wackjob

Asians weren't ignored...

[Shadow of Eternity]

they're just considered "white" now. Like how hispanics and jews are "white" whenever it's convenient.

Re:Asians weren't ignored...

[Dog-Cow]

I am a Jew. I am white. Always have been, always will be.

Re:Asians weren't ignored...

[Shadow of Eternity]

Jews aren't "white", there was this little kerfuffle about it about 70 years ago. We might not always have dark skin but we're not "white" and have never been "white". Anyone insisting Jews are "white" needs to get a goddamn time machine and go tell it to the people who've been enslaving, slaughtering, and persecuting us for the last 4000 or so years.

Re:Asians weren't ignored...

[quantaman]

Jews aren't "white", there was this little kerfuffle about it about 70 years ago. We might not always have dark skin but we're not "white" and have never been "white". Anyone insisting Jews are "white" needs to get a goddamn time machine and go tell it to the people who've been enslaving, slaughtering, and persecuting us for the last 4000 or so years.

Assume you're taking about Jews who are white skinned I'd consider them white.

Yes they were subjected to horrific discrimination in the past, and in some places or settings they still are, and depending on the scenario it might even depend on ethnicity instead of religion.

But in the context we're talking about now, and in fact most contexts, I'd include them as "white".

Re:Asians weren't ignored...

[Shadow of Eternity]

Make sure to tell that to all the racists who still refuse to consider them "white".

Re:Asians weren't ignored...

[quantaman]

Make sure to tell that to all the racists who still refuse to consider them "white".

And for those people, in that context, they are not considered white.

But for a significant majority of people in the US and particularly those in the computer industry (whom we're talking about), they are white.

Re:Asians weren't ignored...

[mjwx]

they're just considered "white" now. Like how hispanics and jews are "white" whenever it's convenient.

Erm, Jews aren't a race. They're an ethnicity.

Most Jews are Caucasian.

Hispanic is also an ethnicity. Hispanics are people from countries with historical links to Spain (derived from the Latin word "Hispania" which was the Roman name for the Iberian Peninsula) Hispanics are mostly Caucasian with some amount of Negroid (mainly due to the historical slave trade in the Caribbean).

Claiming Jews and Hispanics are races is like claiming that Pastafarians and New Yorkers are races.

Historically, Jews and Hispanics have been wrongly classified as races due to the fact humans are stupid.

Re:Asians weren't ignored...

[Shadow of Eternity]

Funny normally I hear that line from people claiming the Jews are actually Khazars and have something to do with the freemasons and fluoridated water.

Re:Asians weren't ignored...

[Shadow of Eternity]

By your logic black people are "white" to non-racists.

Re:Asians weren't ignored...

[quantaman]

By your logic black people are "white" to non-racists.

No, black people are still black, it just that non-racists don't care. Jews might even be white to many racists, they're just a category of white they don't like.

I'm not sure I really get your insistence with the idea that Jews are non-white. If you want to argue Jews are discriminated against that's fine, it's also true that there are a lot of Jews who aren't white by any metric. But if you're going to consider the US context, namely people like Jerry Seinfeld, I'd say Jews are white.

SNL

[kervin]

I could have used more Cowbell

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[alvinrod]

Considering the trends towards automation, programming and developing those automated systems is going to survive as a discipline longer than the jobs that end up being replaced.

When programming and engineering jobs are gone, what else is going to be left? Who's going to hire someone to do welding when they've got a perfectly capable robot that can do it? There will likely come a day when the robots can think for and program themselves and programming is no longer a useful occupation, but it will survive longer than most.

Re:Newsflash.

[tompaulco]

Right. Like the BASIC programming language that I learned in senior high school is relevant in the job marketplace today. Whatever these students allegedly learn about "computer science" in K-12 will be obsolete before the ink on their "job-ready diploma" from Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, et. al. diploma is dry.

Teaching you BASIC taught you how to learn programming languages. High School is not there to teach you a trade, even College is not there to teach you a trade. A College diploma is a license to learn. But if they taught you one programming language it will be all the easier to pick up the next one.

crazy question

[argStyopa]

Why in the hell would we let a for-profit corporation have any say in curriculum?

Just wondering. I mean, if they want to spend their $ to sponsor initiatives, go nuts. If they want to be racist (blacks only need apply) and sexist (women only need apply), it's their money, go to it.

But if the Ford Motor Co said "let's get more people in classes that have to do with working assembly line jobs" even Congress would have to recognize that for its transparent motivation, no?

Re:Newsflash.

[Anonymous Coward]

Like the BASIC programming language that I learned in senior high school is relevant in the job marketplace today.

If you don't understand how essential your teenage BASIC training was to your job performance today, you shouldn't be in programming. Or at least, nobody should be hiring you for that.

Re:Is Google hiring programmers w only a HS diplom

[tompaulco]

Last I checked you had better have at least a BS from one of the top universities to get an interview and you're not getting into one of those unless you have good grades across the board and high test scores in one of the standardized entrance exams. Furthermore, they are only looking for self-starters, the kind of geeks that are self-taught would find any high school CS course extremely boring.

I am a self starter and I didn't find my High School CS class boring. I ate up the classroom assignments like candy. I loved solving any problem with a computer, no matter how simple. After I got done with the project I was supposed to complete 6 or 8 weeks later, I would come up with my own challenges and code them.
My poor CS instructor managed to do a great job with our class, most of which were people who were never going to get it, no matter how much they were babied along, and then there were a few of us that already knew more going in than she was ever going to be able teach us. But she basically gave us self starters free reign to come up with our own projects (or go to lunch early), and spent all of her time with the hopeless ones. We even helped her out trying to teach some of the ones who were having trouble.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[Intrepid imaginaut]

No, it doesn't. How's that manananggal movie coming along kuya, as we're on the subject of whackjobs?

Re:Newsflash.

[Anonymous Coward]

I did basic for 6 years because that's all the money I had and that's all there was. I played with assembly, but not too much because it scared me A friend had pascal for the trs-80, but it was magic and I was afraid of it also.

Then in college, I had to learn C as part of my aerospace engineering core. It took me about 2 months, but I had a set of programs that I could translate (game of life, mandelbrot set, trajectory and orbit simulations and a few games I'd written). My next language was turbo pascal and was surprised that I already knew it and completed a 2kloc score keeping program in 2 days. After that I picked up Ada in about a week, so for procedural languages, including a pile of scripting languages, they're 99% the same as far as anything I need will go into the language for. C++ took maybe a month (during which time I was producing useable and good but C code) before it "clicked" and I understood what OO was all about.

So yeah, basic is a good language to learn on. Programming, for me at least, I'm not a programmer, is a way of thinking about a problem and partitioning it into pieces that can be written down as instructions like telling someone how to bake a cake in spanish or english. The hard part is knowing how to bake a cake, they have dictionaries for words.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[PopeRatzo]

an education in anything can lead to a career that evaporates.

No. If you can write well, you'll always be able to get a job. Also HVAC. People will always want to live places that are too cold or too warm and will need heating and cooling.

I'm sure there are others.

what the fuck is your fucking point? why does that make any fucking difference on this topic?

I know it's late, but our little point on the discussion started in regard to why some people on Slashdot slag CS education, and I posited that maybe they know something you don't.

I think K-12 CS is a good idea

[jader3rd]

I would have loved to have learned CS in K-12. There was so much other stuff that we were taught that felt like it was only there to kill time. Many students struggle with math beyond arithmetic, because they just don't see it possibly being applied to anything. CS lets people see how math can be applied to solve problems.

Re:I think K-12 CS is a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I took 2 years of CS in high school in the 80s. It boggles my mind that 30 years later, most schools don't teach it.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[PopeRatzo]

There will likely come a day when the robots can think for and program themselves and programming is no longer a useful occupation, but it will survive longer than most.

No doubt. But the question is whether it will survive as a decent middle-class career. Maybe "surviving" means those jobs all get sent to third world countries.

I'd keep my passport updated if I were you.

Re: Newsflash.

[Jason Levine]

A college professor of mine once told the class that everything he taught us would be obsolete by the time we graduated. This didn't make the classes useless, though, because the core concepts he taught could be applied for the rest of our careers.

Nobody's saying that kids learning BASIC will go out and get jobs programming BASIC, but BASIC could lead to PASCAL which could lead to C which could lead to pretty much any other language and any of a hundred different jobs.

The stereotyping of Asians

[Taco Cowboy]

Let us be fair here --- if stereotyping the blacks and/or the Hispanics has become a serious social offense, why is stereotyping the Asians still permissible?

Re: The stereotyping of Asians

[mypassis1234]

I recently saw a comedian explain it - it's funnier if you 'punch up'. Even 'punching down' is usually a self-deprecating joke about the comedian ("look what an asshole I am").

White people have had an advantage for hundreds of years (or longer?), and it shows in the percentage of politicians ruling, and probably more importantly the percentage of super rich. It started with slavery, but continued with Jim Crow, and exists today as, at minimum, bias. With that history and current imbalance, it stands to reason that any comparisons showing white people favorably will be met with disdain.

I think of it like this. If we're all neighbors, then we're actually teammates to a degree. If we're the player doing poorly, we should focus on doing better, working harder. If we're the player doing well, we should focus on helping the teammates not doing well. Encouragement seems to work in all situations, and actual help and advice in some situations (like if it's requested).

The Indians place a high value on Education

[Taco Cowboy]

Of the different ethnicity from Asia the Indians place a very high value on Education - on par with the Japanese, the Koreans, the Vietnamese, and the Chinese

The Pinoys (from the Philippines) and those from Thailand, Laos, Myanmar, and the Pacific Islanders (like Micronesia / Melanesia) education to them is not that important

As for the Pakistanis, the Bangladeshis, the Afghans, the Indonesians and the Malays, their utmost priority is Islam, their religion

The Iranians are the odd lot - although they are of the same religion with the former lot, the Iranians place a lot of emphasis on knowledge outside of Islam

Re:The Indians place a high value on Education

[jedidiah]

> As for the Pakistanis, the Bangladeshis, the Afghans, the Indonesians and the Malays, their utmost priority is Islam, their religion

That's odd. I've known a number of Desis and Pakastanis in IT.

I even known a couple of genuine hadjis. It didn't seem to interfere with the job.

Apparently in Pakistan engineers and doctors have high prestige and IT gets lumped in with engineers.

Don't you open that can of worm

[Taco Cowboy]

Back in 1992 the "White Men Can't Jump" movie ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt01... ) was made and all was cool

Will it be as cool to make "Black Men Can't Code" and/or "Women Can't Program" movies in today;s climate?

Death by Diversity Candidates

[sethstorm]

It's still 60% white. White doesn't count anymore?

They detract from diversity candidate quotas, and thus must be reduced to some token number. They would rather have the non-diverse whites on a permatemp track that leads nowhere - or not employed at all.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[mapkinase]

>Computers are a basic part of the world we live in, computer programming isn't

This is like saying that toilets are a basic part of the world we live in, but plumbers are not.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[GuB-42]

Programming may not be a necessary skill but I think it is great at teaching you logical thinking. A bit like maths. Proportionality is perhaps the highest level of maths that most people actually need. Yet kids still learn things like equations and trigonometry.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[Intrepid imaginaut]

Right, so why aren't we mandating that plumbing be taught in schools?

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[Dog-Cow]

Thank you for the non-sequitor.

Re:Is Google hiring programmers w only a HS diplom

[trout007]

My company paid me to go to college and grad school. The agreement was I had to work for them for 3 years after graduation or I had to pay them for the tuition. It is a great deal.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[Opportunist]

If supply and demand played any role in salaries, STEM salaries would skyrocket concerning how dire the situation allegedly is with so many engineers missing in the workforce.

Considering how everyone and their dog is going for a MBA degree today, management salaries should plummet.

Oddly, the opposite is the case.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[AmiMoJo]

all serious countries in the world are ramping up computer science education.

Not really, no.

The UK is. Japan is. France has started offering basic programming from elementary level. Developing nations like India and China are pushing CS really hard.

So yeah, most serious countries seem to recognize that CS is really worth teaching. It happens to be one of the most accessible forms of engineering - unlike electronics and mechanical engineering it can be done at a normal school desk with equipment that schools already have.

No Child Left in Asia

[tomhath]

Outside of a few high tech corridors, the number of Asian students in US primary schools if pretty small. I also suspect that a large percentage of Google's Asian employees grew up in Asia.

the main reason given by a "comprehensive but not representative" sample of 9,693 K-12 principals and 1,865 school district superintendents in the U.S. for their schools not offering computer science "is the limited time they have to devote to classes that are not tied to testing requirements."

So what the survey found is that school administrators are blaming No Child Left Behind, because instead of giving the students a good education and letting the test scores reflect that, they're trying to game the system by teaching to the test. It would be nice if someone could come up with a better way to measure a student's progress. But then the administrators would spend their time figuring out how to game that measure anyway.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[Hognoxious]

if you resist education here (because keeping people dumb has always been a winning approach) they simply import workers form [ITYM "from", you flid] elsewhere or outsource the entire division

And they won't do that anyway because it's cheaper?

Or the missing missing option, bring H1-Bs in.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[jedidiah]

It still helps to understand how the car functions, even if you don't intend to fix it yourself. Otherwise, it's easy to destroy your rather expensive asset or cause it to be a threat to self and others.

The same goes for computers.

On the other hand, the powers that be don't want informed consumers either.

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[circletimessquare]

an education in {X} has an over supply and doesn't guarantee the easy life

{X} = any career in the entire world

you have no point

Re: what is with this regular propaganda on slashd

[circletimessquare]

thank you, that's what he is indeed

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[circletimessquare]

"they simply import workers form elsewhere" = H1-B you moron

what is your point? to agree with me by arguing with me?

Re:what is with this regular propaganda on slashdo

[circletimessquare]

no, there are plenty of mediocre MBAs who can't cut it. same with lawyers. same with any profession

there is, and always will be, people who get CS degrees and can't cut it, and people without any degree who succeed in the field regardless. supply and demand has to do with proficiency, nothing else, and a degree only correlates weakly with that point. this will always be true

so you let anyone who wants to pursue subject, pursue the subject. if the subject matter is important to your society, you encourage kids to get into it CS education in the grade schools

then let the pieces fall where they may

why is this so fucking complicated and difficult for people to understand?

Re:Newsflash.

[Hognoxious]

You've convinced me, but that was the easy part.

Now try that on every HR drone in the world.

Re:Newsflash.

[Cinnamon Beige]

Everyone's after their own interests. Including district level execs who push for higher property taxes because they want a higher salary.

At least with Google, Apple, MS, Facebook and the rest... Their self-interest benefits actual students by way of teaching useful skills.

Right. Like the BASIC programming language that I learned in senior high school is relevant in the job marketplace today. Whatever these students allegedly learn about "computer science" in K-12 will be obsolete before the ink on their "job-ready diploma" from Apple, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, et. al. diploma is dry.

Well, aside from the larger reason that no high school diploma in the US is 'job-ready' because somebody(s) thought the diploma itself and not the skills it used to represent were the reason why people with HS diplomas earned more over a lifetime & now many HS diplomas might as well be from diploma mills...

Some flavor of BASIC is used in teaching the overall processes of 'how to program' so when they go on to learn more useful programming languages the class can go straight to 'how to program in this specific language,' which is very useful for anybody in there for whom this would be a 3rd+ programming language. This is what BASIC was designed for, and is pretty good language for teaching good programming habits and basic skills; it's quick and relatively easy to read, and nobody had to point out to me the sheer utility of reading others' code because some BASIC commands I learned I did from observing others' use of them.

I'm pretty sure that nobody would expect BASIC to be used for coding an OS, and a successful effort to do such would be a dancing bear, but that's not what the purpose of BASIC is anyway. It's a teaching language, and asking more of it would probably hurt its usefulness as such.

Re: Newsflash.

[DEN_GUY]

I would add that I have NEVER been paid for doing what I learned at University. I specialized in CS where we learned compilers (never wrote on of those), C++ (helpful, but never worked in that language), Computer Theory - FSA's and Kleene's theorem (not really useful beyond understanding the theoretical underpinnings of logic), etc., Operating Systems (this one was handy when I discovered Linux). I also did a lot of Math (Graph Theory, Calc I, II, III and DiffEq's, Probablility, Game Theory), and Physics. You also DON'T learn how to program in teams (didn't know about version control, UML, Writing specs, code standards, enterprise design or any of the other things that are my daily bread and butter.

That being said, University was critical because I made connections (still friends with my fellow CS'ers), learned how to learn, and how to persevere through complex problems. So IMHO, learning the underlying principles was CRITICAL to success, since technologies, design philosophies, and languages come and go. If you get a "job ready" degree, you'll be behind the curve as soon as you graduate.

Just my $.02

If standardized tests are broken then fix them

[morgauxo]

There is one thing an employer has to look at when a new graduate tries to enter the workforce. School performance.

In todays world this is often at the college level, not the high school level however colleges have one thing to look at when accepting new students. High school performance.

I'm sorry but not all high schools are created equally. I'm sorry if this is not fair however it is an undeniable reality. Without standardized tests all a college has to go on is grades. How can the grades of a student at one school which is focussed on getting kids ready for college be compared to the grades of a student from another school where perhaps they were never taught anything beyone Algebra? Clearly it takes more work to get an A at one then at the other!

Further.. how can there be any hope to improve the bad schools or maintain the good ones if there is not measurement of the school's performance? I realize that situations are different. I realize that you can't expect teachers in some poorly funded inner city district where parents are not helping and encouraging their childeren to magically get their students up to the level of the ones on the richer side of the tracks. But.. how can they be expected to do the best that they can with what they have by burying their heads in the sand and not even measuring performance?