Slashdot Mirror


The Case For Teaching Ignorance

HughPickens.com writes: In the mid-1980s, a University of Arizona surgery professor, Marlys H. Witte, proposed teaching a class entitled "Introduction to Medical and Other Ignorance." Far too often, she believed, teachers fail to emphasize how much about a given topic is unknown. "Textbooks spend 8 to 10 pages on pancreatic cancer," said Witte, "without ever telling the student that we just don't know very much about it." Now Jamie Holmes writes in the NY Times that many scientific facts simply aren't solid and immutable, but are instead destined to be vigorously challenged and revised by successive generations. According to Homes, presenting ignorance as less extensive than it is, knowledge as more solid and more stable, and discovery as neater also leads students to misunderstand the interplay between answers and questions.

In 2006, a Columbia University neuroscientist named Stuart J. Firestein, began teaching a course on scientific ignorance after realizing, to his horror, that many of his students might have believed that we understand nearly everything about the brain. "This crucial element in science was being left out for the students," says Firestein."The undone part of science that gets us into the lab early and keeps us there late, the thing that "turns your crank," the very driving force of science, the exhilaration of the unknown, all this is missing from our classrooms. In short, we are failing to teach the ignorance, the most critical part of the whole operation." The time has come to "view ignorance as 'regular' rather than deviant," argue sociologists Matthias Gross and Linsey McGoey. Our students will be more curious — and more intelligently so — if, in addition to facts, they were equipped with theories of ignorance as well as theories of knowledge.

237 comments

  1. Ignorance? by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Funny

    Finally a subject I can get a PhD in!
    Finally a topic where I don't need to read the summary!
    I've been prepared my whole life for this!

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:Ignorance? by RenderSeven · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And unlike most PhD degrees, this one has numerous career paths!

    2. Re:Ignorance? by VernonNemitz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There are two major types of ignorance, which we can call "passive" and "active".
      Passive ignorance is the same as simply not-knowing something. Like, we are ignorant of whether or not there are any living organisms on Mars.
      Active ignorance is the deliberate ignoring of facts. See the Flat Earth Society for an example of active ignorance, although there are plenty other offenders, like Creationists who claim the Earth is only a few thousand years old (so explain this), abortion opponents who claim the Earth isn't overpopulated (so explain this), etc.

    3. Re:Ignorance? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      You get a honorary doctorate!

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    4. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Active ignorance is the deliberate ignoring of facts. See the Flat Earth Society for an example of active ignorance, although there are plenty other offenders,

      See most modern physicists:
      "My data doesn't match up with my mathematical model used for prediction? My options are":
      a) Create new, even more esoteric maths to heap on top of it and hide it, and add more fudge factors to "coalesce" the difference (even where it's orders of magnitudes off), then ask for more funding to build another, bigger machine to gather more data whose significance I will also ignore.
      b) Throw out the failed model and seek an entirely new explanation--oh but no funding from this choice, and it includes ridicule.

      Which acknowledges ignorance?
      And which option is most commonly taken?

    5. Re:Ignorance? by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

      Next up, MBA!
      I better forget some things.......

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re: Ignorance? by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      wow, that page is so full of ignorance! I bet they've never even heard of Norman Borlaug or understand the IFR cycle. But since they don't follow the "you first" principle, I think "willful" is fair to assume.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    7. Re:Ignorance? by TheMeuge · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually I also disagree with the title... not because it's wrong but because it will be coopted by the truly ignorant to "prove" that everything they disagree with has no scientific basis. This is the academic equivalent of clickbait, with the unfortunate consequence of being distributed outside the academic community.

      I do think that the author has a point in that we are taught "best available" theory as fact. That's not wrong, however, it's only missing the concept that our school system has been ignoring for decades - actually teaching the basis of the scientific method, logic, critical thinking... not to mention applied statistics. All of these are necessary in the modern world to do the one important civic duty that most people exercise in a state of utter ignorance - voting.

      I have pursued a rather rigorous scientific training career (MD, PhD) and getting the PhD training really altered my way of thinking about the world, and learning how to ask questions that are appropriate, can be answered, and how to design ways to answer them. I can understand where they author is coming from. I just think that to truly understand what he is saying one needs much more training than lay people get, and this headline just gets me into more trouble when I talk to patients and they refuse to believe me cause they read in the paper that everything science does is bollocks.

    8. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) Create new, even more esoteric maths to heap on top of it and hide it, and add more fudge factors to "coalesce" the difference (even where it's orders of magnitudes off), then ask for more funding to build another, bigger machine to gather more data whose significance I will also ignore. b) Throw out the failed model and seek an entirely new explanation--oh but no funding from this choice, and it includes ridicule.

      Umm, both options are creating new theories, you're just flavoring it differently so you can easily compartmentalize things you don't like from what you would like. Any new theory involving gravity needs to match observations we already have, which means it is mathematically going to look like GR, or even Newtonian gravity, in some situations, so it will have to look like something mathematically connected to older theories. There is no way to just throw out all of those observations, unless you are actually trying to advocate not being scientific.

    9. Re:Ignorance? by phantomfive · · Score: 0, Troll
      "I only know that I know nothing" -Socrates

      I have pursued a rather rigorous scientific training career (MD, PhD) and getting the PhD training really altered my way of thinking about the world, and learning how to ask questions that are appropriate

      Good job, you've done a lot of work, and you know more than the average person. Getting a PhD was good for you.

      You're still ignorant: there is vastly more that you don't know than that you do know. In fact, if you take into consideration all the things you don't know, the difference between you and the average person is a minuscule rounding error.

      To be even more blunt and honest, you are so ignorant, that compared to all knowledge available, the difference between what you know and zero is a rounding error. That's how ignorant you are. That's how ignorant we all are.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    10. Re:Ignorance? by Chris+Johnson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Given that climate is Chaos in action, it might well be.

      The interesting thing is that we can know certain things, such as if the climate warms a few degrees, the energy fed into the system increases. Since it's a chaotic system, what it does is get even more chaotic and start coughing up crazier 'outlier' events, things we've not seen before. You get nutty stuff like snow in June and it's just because the total behavior of the system got more chaotic and more unpredictable.

      Predictably unpredictable, if you follow me. :)

      So we can predict with high confidence a sharply increasing quotient of WTFness in the already chaotic weather. To get it to behave more predictably, we'd have to cool the whole system down a couple degrees.

    11. Re: Ignorance? by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      Your reply is meaningless pseudophilosophic tripe.

      I'm so ignorant that I am ignorant about the sheer amount of ignorance I'm ignorant of. OK, I agree. Now what? Should I prostrate myself out of amazement with the amount of stuff I don't know? How about I try to improve what I can and stop worrying about the rest.

    12. Re:Ignorance? by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Finally a subject I can get a PhD in! Finally a topic where I don't need to read the summary!

      I have books from some of my Master's classes that are still in the packaging Amazon sent them in....

      I graduated over 3 years ago

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    13. Re: Ignorance? by phantomfive · · Score: 0, Troll

      OK, I agree. Now what?

      Mainly stop acting like an arrogant academic.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    14. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I never said to throw out the observations. Data is *good*--keep it. All theories must eventually explain all data--or be disproven and discarded. The data should always be king--not the math--inconsistencies should point the finger at the math and theories, not the other way around.

      I am advocating for throwing out theories that have holes like Swiss cheese which the data make obvious rather than slathering stuff over the holes to hide them and continuing to say that "all is good in physics research". (E.g. string theory is an obvious, utter waste of time and resources.)

      No, new theories do not have to look mathematically connected to the math of old theories--this is the root problem--assuming that the old theories are *proven* and *correct*. We actually still do not understand many of the very fundamental basic theories completely--and yet 60+ years later most modern physicists build new maths on the assumption that all the underlying is fully understood and proven to be correct. This results in a house of cards and decades-long wild goose chases.

      We should be spending our time questioning and fixing the fundamentals--even back to the original math used. It is not without error.

    15. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is very easy to explain anything once you believe in an all-powerful deity: God made Earth like it is, with all the "evidence" pointing to a longer history than there actually is. For all you know, God could have created the Universe just an hour ago, including you and your memories of your childhood. It would be just as irrefutable, and that's why science doesn't deal with these beliefs: Science requires testable hypotheses.

      If you've ever actually done scientific work (which is assumed if you have a bachelor of science or master of science degree), then you should know that a very important part of it is that you find and describe existing works in the field you're working on. Teaching that isn't teaching "ignorance", it's teaching how to do science. If that's new to you, you've been doing it wrong.

    16. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The claim wasn't that overpopulation was the sole or even a major premise to the opposition - merely that abortion opponents have claimed it. I could not tell you whether that is true or not, as I tend to remain willfully ignorant of activist platforms.

    17. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, new theories do not have to look mathematically connected to the math of old theories--this is the root problem--assuming that the old theories are *proven* and *correct*.

      Having new theories mathematically connected to the old is in no way assuming the old theories are correct or proven truths, but simply assuming all of the supporting evidence for the old theories is still valid. You can question that assumption, that there might have been some mistake in past observations, but for many situations, there are now a very diverse set of observations which produce a very specific mathematical relationship. Sticking with the same example as above, any future theory of gravity needs to reproduce 1/r^2 dependence in the regimes heavily tested by observation, even if it is a limiting case (e.g. like GR does). You can't just say throw out the old math but keep the old data, as they are very closely connected.

    18. Re:Ignorance? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Don't forget to cash out your life savings for a luxury sports car so you can qualify for financial aid to the best schools and still look rich to your classmates.

    19. Re:Ignorance? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      >No, new theories do not have to look mathematically connected to the math of old theories

      What? No. They most assuredly do. Let me give you an example: We *know*, experimentally, that gravity behaves as G*m1*m2 / r^2 in most cases - therefor *every* theory that attempts to explain gravity must reduce to that formula in most cases. General Relativity introduced a radically different theory for gravity, with far more sophisticated formulas describing it... and yet they reduce to the Newtonian formula under most normal situations, as they must. They also describe far more sophisticated behaviors in the extreme - behaviors which have now been experimentally confirmed for decades. So we can say with a high degree of certainty that every future theory of gravity will closely approximate General Relativity except in extremes we haven't yet been able to measure.

      The explanation behind the math may change radically, but once the math has been experimentally confirmed it's pretty much set in stone, over the span of conditions experimentally tested. Any theory that postulates a fundamental change in the math under "normal conditions" presupposes that all the experimental data collected beforehand is flawed.

      Now, when you get into theoretical physics things get a little "squishier" and we can debate on the value of funding things like String Theory research (and there are by the way MANY competing theories that fall under that heading which are all considered to be at least plausible - a lot of the apparent "fudging" is a matter of hearing about different theories, all of which require different "fudge-factors") But then the "research" is almost entirely speculative and thus doesn't require a whole lot of funding in the first place. Plus it's mostly being done in a university setting, i.e. a brain trust established to keep clever people out of trouble while also educating the next generation.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    20. Re:Ignorance? by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      Umm, a theory is a proven set of hypothesis. A hypothesis is an educated guess. So I think you mean hypothesis not theory because last time I checked, gravity was a fact.

      I begin to question your scientific training when you don't understand the difference.

    21. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The poster constructed a strawman claim to push another platform entirely. The very site he links to is an activist site that, I guess, is supposed to debunk the pro-lifers by showing how overpopulated we are.

      Nowhere did he point to where a pro-lifer actually disputed the overpopulation of the planet. For the most part, my understanding of pro-life opposition to people who believe in overpopulation is that is provided as an excuse for abortions. Needless to say, overpopulation itself is one of those things which a lot of people like to assume is the case, but is controversial because supposed "Population Bombs" have apparently been threatening us since Malthus, but no one can explain why they don't appear to be coming to pass.

    22. Re:Ignorance? by khallow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Since it's a chaotic system, what it does is get even more chaotic and start coughing up crazier 'outlier' events, things we've not seen before. You get nutty stuff like snow in June and it's just because the total behavior of the system got more chaotic and more unpredictable.

      Unless, of course, it doesn't do that.

      So we can predict with high confidence a sharply increasing quotient of WTFness in the already chaotic weather. To get it to behave more predictably, we'd have to cool the whole system down a couple degrees.

      Obviously, you can cool the system down enough, say near absolute zero, where it will be boring. But hot can be boring too. A diffuse plasma doesn't really have a lot of stuff going on in it either. Merely, having more energy doesn't make something harder to predict. It'll depend on the model and what you are trying to predict.

    23. Re:Ignorance? by MobSwatter · · Score: 1

      Yes, the short bus, a Brittany Spears sing along, and Chucky Cheese for everyone!

      We'll take the best and the brightest from that basket and have them design the next Navy destroyer to see if it does any better against a single Russky fighter aircraft in the Black Sea.

    24. Re:Ignorance? by operagost · · Score: 1

      I'm not a creationist, but when the very article you cited points out that Pando could be 80,000 to one million years old, there may be some doubt in that dating method.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    25. Re: Ignorance? by TheMeuge · · Score: 1

      There is no proven theory, there's merely ones that have not been disproved. A hypothesis may be substantiated by evidence, and when our observations are repeatedly verified and the theory is shown to have significant predictive power we start teaching it as fact. That doesn't mean that tomorrow we won't find a better explanation for our observation. I stand by my wording. It may be redundant, but I think it gets the point across better. Just trying not to be an arrogant academic ...

    26. Re:Ignorance? by sycodon · · Score: 1

      Is that any more ridiculous than suggesting that the universe is a computer simulation?

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    27. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which acknowledges ignorance? And which option is most commonly taken?

      Funny how often people using strawmen full of loaded words demand that scientists acknowledge ignorance... when instead in reality the scientists are busy trying many different options even if they tend to converge on the most functional one with time. At least a "fudge factor" is quantitative instead of just plain fudge.

    28. Re:Ignorance? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      No. The problem is what do you call a person. At what point does a blob become a person? What's that defining moment.

      Theocratic busybodies are no good at answering that question. They probably would not like the answer.

      Plus you have other fun issues to deal with that the "morally superior" types like to ignore.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    29. Re: Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are right, the professor is wrong.

    30. Re: Ignorance? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Stop sounding like trailer trash.

      Science is a method and a philosophy. It's not a set of facts put down in a book to be worshiped like an idol. Teaching those ideas would be far more useful then forcing to regurgitate a bunch of facts.

      That way when they see Tyson put "science and truth" in a sentence together they can know how full of shit Tyson is.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    31. Re: Ignorance? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      You can still have bad data or data that defies current collection methods. I

      f you were to look at the universe in only visible (to us) spectra you'd come up with an entirely different model than having more data in other spectra.

      Does that mean the old models are bad? No, they work to some extent. Newtonian physics works fine if you're just hitting a ball with another but it's hopelessly dated if you're modeling stars.

      The problem is not bad data or bad models, it's that we simply don't understand every single interaction and that requires 'more math' to be heaped upon the rest. Just scrapping it and restarting is not necessary in most cases.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    32. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know.

    33. Re:Ignorance? by ewibble · · Score: 2

      You are right suggesting the universe is a computer simulation no more scientific than believing there is a god (unless you have a way to prove it). There is nothing wrong with thinking about alternatives. The problem comes when you base your actions that cannot prove or disprove, and force other people to believe your speculation. Or state it as the "gospel truth" when it is just speculation.

      It may well be that I am imagining everybody else, but the moment I start killing other people because they are not really real it becomes a problem.

    34. Re:Ignorance? by Beck_Neard · · Score: 1

      Reading the summary, it looks like this is mostly aimed at the biological sciences. In my experience, they could use something like this, as it's quite common for biology textbooks to continuously be 'updated' with recent and unconfirmed discoveries and to state them as facts. I don't 100% blame them though, as biology has been moving so rapidly in the past few decades that even our most basic assumptions (like the 'genetic code') have turned out to be either entirely wrong or at least grossly disjoint with reality.

      But in a lot of other sciences, this could do more harm than good. For one thing, what the teacher or textbook writer is ignorant of might NOT be reflective of what the scientific community is ignorant of. It may just be a reflection of the teacher's ignorance.

      --
      A fool and his hard drive are soon parted.
    35. Re:Ignorance? by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Theocratic busybodies are no good at answering that question..

      False premise: The religious argument is to assume that 'personhood' (for lack of a better term) is present from conception onward: this is not due to being 'busybodies', but out of an abundance of compassion mixed with caution (given the marked improvements in premature birth survival rates over the past few decades, in spite of them happening at smaller and smaller gestation periods? I'm rather inclined to agree with this sense of caution.)

      Now at what point does a human first gain anything considered consciousness? That has yet to be proven, but most guesses put it at or around 15-20 weeks of gestation; around the same time the brain forms... but no one knows or can prove either way, and there's no way to tell for certain when the lower mental functions spring into being.

      You see, your post is an example of *why* TFA is important... you all too easily ascribe to "theocratic busybodies", what is in reality a compassionate nod towards humanity not knowing enough to set a firm demarcation between clinical procedure, and the externally imposed death of a nascent human being.

      But you know, politics and stuff demands mischaracterization, I guess.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    36. Re:Ignorance? by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      You don't understand!

      You see, it becomes less religious (and way more sciency) when Morgan Freeman explains it.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    37. Re: Ignorance? by phantomfive · · Score: 0

      Stop sounding like trailer trash.

      Can't do it, sorry cuz.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    38. Re:Ignorance? by bigwheel · · Score: 2

      If the earth is so fragile and chaotic, you'd think it would have destroyed itself over the last 4.5 billion years. Maybe some of those feedback loops are negative, creating stability rather than chaos?

      Anyone who thinks that the weather should stay exactly the same, hasn't been paying attention to what's been happening since forever.

    39. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least a "fudge factor" is quantitative instead of just plain fudge.

      What a destructive attitude. Let's call them what they are: evidence that some theory is wildly wrong and should be reconsidered--not just throw some fudge to patch the hole and move on as if there was nothing to see there....

    40. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The earlier poster didn't need to point to a so-called "pro-lifer" providing evidence the world isn't overpopulated --by the way, those LIARS should explain THIS; just exactly how does idiotically and prejudicially promoting the extinction of several whole species every single day, as a side-effect of trying to force ever-more human mouths-to-feed to get born, count as "pro life"? The poster indicated that simply because abortion opponents claim the world is not overpopulated, various things need to be explained in terms of something ELSE being the cause of those things.

    41. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem to be confusing religion with an untestable hypothesis. Religion is an untestable hypothesis, but an untestable hypothesis is not religion.

      If I believe that there's a little UFO that hovers behind my head, so that I can't see it in a mirror, and it moves with me so I can't turn around and see it, that's not a religion. Religion implies a moral code, for most, as well as judgment by superhuman deities. No such thing occurs with the simulated universe theory, and there it has been argued that there is a very high probability that such a thing is true.

    42. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      False premise: The religious argument is to assume that 'personhood' (for lack of a better term) is present from conception onward: this is not due to being 'busybodies', but out of an abundance of compassion mixed with caution...

      This is incorrect: compassion plays no part in Christianity.

      God tells Christians that you can't abort a foetus - the reason is that only their god can kill his own creations. Anything else is a sin that will bring their the vengeance of their god upon us all, and they don't want that: self-preservation.

      God also tells Christians that they have to do good deeds, so they do - at least, this is what they claim. What they don't tell you, but what we all know, is that the good deeds themselves are a ticket into heaven and failure to perform the good deeds will result in banishment to eternal punishment (which may or may not be eternal, depending on where you look in the religious text): fear of punishment.

      Neither of these are compassion, they are both self-interest.

      If an athiest does something without thought of reward, the athiest has acted with compassion. If a Christian does something without thought of reward, the Christian is intending to get something at the end of his life in exchange for his sacrfice in the present and everything, everything he does is motivated by this concept.

      I have never met a Christian who wasn't trying to get into heaven, nor have I ever met a rich man who didn't work hard enough to be entitled to what he had.

    43. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's called complexity science. Chaos theory isn't nearly as interesting, at least to me, although chaos theory is obviously an integral component of complexity science.

      Complexity science is a field of study that searches for and examines structures which oscillate around an equilibrium state, but never settle. (They're consuming energy, of course.) That is, they're neither chaotic nor static, but share characteristics of both, as well as exhibiting unique characteristics. Basically, it's about understanding the mathematical and physical underpinnings of systems such as biological life.

    44. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's call them what they are: evidence that some theory is wildly wrong and should be reconsidered

      If it matches the data, then it is not evidence in the slightest that the theory is wildly wrong, but instead science working. It doesn't matter that there is no first principles explanation why a new factor needs to be added, as a vast majority of physics was discovered that way. That is just how science works, and how it will go until someone comes up with a better alternative (and there are numerous efforts for just about every theory people on Slashdot pretend are to be taken as faith) or more fundamental evidence is found.

    45. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's impressive that you've got Christianity all figured out. Without even talking to many Christians about it, obviously.

    46. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you missed what was being called "fudge", as in the vague, subjective BS that armchair scientists through out on the internet as if it were a fact that the theory they dislike fits neatly in a separate category from work they think real scientists should be doing. Repeating such vague arguments ad nauseam while not actually being able to do any calculations for or against the theories they dislike, or being able to quantitatively compare it to observations, is not science. But I guess it is impossible to argue with those that think they are the only sane person in a field they have read very little about.

    47. Re:Ignorance? by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Now at what point does a human first gain anything considered consciousness?

      I'm going to say "after they are sufficiently programmed", which is about 5 years old. Then it goes away again when they become a teenager. Then it comes back again when they go off to college. Then it goes away permenantly when they get their MBA. More or less.

    48. Re:Ignorance? by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      "If the earth is so fragile and chaotic, you'd think it would have destroyed itself over the last 4.5 billion years. Maybe some of those feedback loops are negative, creating stability rather than chaos?"

      As time goes on, the chaotic component of weather assures that any instances of positive feedback out there get triggers\ed, crashing some part of the system until it reaches a local point of stability once more. This means that with time, the natural world around us contains more and more negative (the good kind) feedback.

    49. Re:Ignorance? by atticus9 · · Score: 1

      I think it depends on how close the "best available" theory is to being fact. One of my friends also works in medicine and has to deal with a lot of patients who believe every disease, condition, or injury can basically be cured with a pill (or a single surgey if it's really bad) and some rest. An illusion born out of tv shows and high school text books. The real world is a rude awakening and most of the time they'd rather sue than accept that people still can die or suffer permanent injury while in the care of competent physicians.

    50. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have pursued a rather rigorous scientific training career (MD, PhD) and getting the PhD training really altered my way of thinking about the world, and learning how to ask questions that are appropriate, can be answered, and how to design ways to answer them

      If the null hypothesis is false, then my preferred explanation is ______?

    51. Re:Ignorance? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      There is chaos in climate but it's different from and on different time scales than chaos in weather. Studying climate is in part studying chaos in weather, the average of weather but also the variability of weather over time.

    52. Re:Ignorance? by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      If you find you have to add a "fudge factor" for your hypothesis to fit the data that's just an opportunity to research and discover why, expanding the knowledge in the field.

      (And more opportunities for getting in on that government grant money. /sarc)

    53. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no realistic defining moment where a human organism can be called a person in terms of scientific data, partly because each human develops at a different rate --no "one size fits all" definition will work. The Law uses "birth" as a dividing line, granting "legal person" status to newborns regardless of what the scientific data has to say about them.
      There is one thing that both the Law and the science agree on about personhood --persons are minds, not bodies. For proof, consider a brain-dead human adult on full life-support. The brain weighs about 3 pounds, so if the adult weighs 100 or more pounds, even if the brain is dead the overall human body is 97+% alive. Nevertheless "human" does not equal "person", because if the brain is dead, the mind is dead --the person is dead. And so the Law allows the "plug" to be pulled, so that the living human mere-animal body can die. If the human body alone was a person, the Constitution would grant it right-to-life, and the plug would never get allowed to be pulled. But since science knows that a person is a mind, not a human body, and the Law agrees (because this is NOT about the special "legal person" status), the plug can be pulled.
      Next, it just so happens that certain scientific data about personhood/minds is quite solid --it doesn't begin to become achieved until significantly after birth. Look up the data on "feral children" for proof. Human biology alone cannot result in persons! Alone, the result is a feral child, basically just a clever animal, only and always.
      That information provides a key insight to the Overall Abortion Debate -- no unborn human, even just before birth, can ever qualify as a person per the scientific data, period . Anti-abortion idiots can be relied-upon to immediately take that data and change the subject and start spouting nonsense about infanticide, which has nothing to do with the Overall Abortion Debate (and the Law already forbids infanticide, thanks to "legal person" status, so why do they waste time on it?). They cannot refute the data about feral children --the Debate can be declared OVER -- so they try (and fail) to convince others to ignore it....

    54. Re:Ignorance? by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      False premise: The religious argument is to assume that 'personhood' (for lack of a better term) is present from conception onward:

      No it isn't.

      One religious argument (among many) is to assume that "'personhood' (for lack of a better term) is present from conception onward".

      Not all religions believe this.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    55. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A theory is a as yet not disproved Hypothesis

      That is all we know and all we can know

      A short perusal of Karl Popper's work explains why

    56. Re:Ignorance? by OolimPhon · · Score: 1

      But hot can be boring too. A diffuse plasma doesn't really have a lot of stuff going on in it either.

      Oh, I dunno. Been to the Sun's corona lately?

    57. Re:Ignorance? by khallow · · Score: 1

      But hot can be boring too. A diffuse plasma doesn't really have a lot of stuff going on in it either.

      Oh, I dunno. Been to the Sun's corona lately?

      Most of that excitement is due to what is dumping into the corona rather than the corona itself.

    58. Re: Ignorance? by brunes69 · · Score: 1

      The idea that a human is conscious 15 weeks after gestation is total poppycock. There are no observed behaviours AT ALL in the fetus at this point that aren't even exhibited by lower life. Unless you also claim worms are conscious, which implies almost every animal on earth is. That is a pretty broad definition of consciousness.

      The truth is, ACTUALLY, traits affiliated with consciousness, such as recognizing ones self in the mirror, actually aren't exhibited in children until several months after birth. So if you're using that as a benchmark, then we would need to relabel killing one month old babies as animal cruelty.

    59. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gravity is observable data, its existence needs no theory to be proven. There could be a theory about how it changes with distance or what it is, but no amount of ignorance can argue with data.

      IMHO, the trouble with wilfully ignorant starts to appear when we base policies on science. It then becomes drawn into conflict of wills and powers, and it is end of science. Establishment will get attached to scientific ignorance of the day (see Aristotle's physics, or Ptolemaic geocentric system) and will keep deadly grip on advancement of science, insurgents will deliberately blow the amount of scientific ignorance out of proportions, powerful rulers and influential people (plutocrats) will subvert scientific process to their own goals to get their indulgences from scientific "clergy" ... it is a lot like Church and State in Dark Ages.

      In a sort of Taoistic sense, science can't freely and honestly search for truth if it is married to power, if it is revered and obeyed. Paradoxically if we want to know, we must not use the knowledge. Perhaps we need, after separation of Church and State, another separation of Science and State.

    60. Re:Ignorance? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Now at what point does a human first gain anything considered consciousness? That has yet to be proven, but most guesses put it at or around 15-20 weeks of gestation; around the same time the brain forms... but no one knows or can prove either way, and there's no way to tell for certain when the lower mental functions spring into being.

      Most people wouldn't even credit a new born child with consciousness in any meaningful sense of the word. A one week old baby is no more conscious than a kitten, in fact potentially less so in terms of responding to what's going on around them.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    61. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From the page you linked:

      Food production and distribution could catch up if our population stopped growing and dropped to a sustainable level.

      Do you realize how much food is wasted in first world countries? For example, I heard that farmers throw extra milk away so as not to flood the market and drive prices down.
      How much could starving countries grow if their socio/economic/political system wasn't so screwed up.

    62. Re:Ignorance? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To claim God created the Universe to look old (like creating evidence suggesting dinosaurs existed, when they actually didn't) would be to claim God is a Liar. God is not supposed to be a liar, so the initial claim has to be discarded, due to logical inconsistency with other claims about God.

    63. Re:Ignorance? by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      How can a post which is reiterating the point of TFA be a troll?

      Looks to me like a self-entitled academic got mod points, thereby reinforcing the whole point about how hard it is to admit that you don't know everything.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    64. Re:Ignorance? by VernonNemitz · · Score: 1

      Yes, the food problem isn't entirely overpopulation-related. However, that's not the only problem mentioned on the page. You explained ONE in terms of it is caused by things outside of overpopulation, but what about all those other problems on the page? If you can't offer alternative explanations for all of them, then overpopulation is real.

    65. Re:Ignorance? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      That's not "the religious argument". There have been a good many opinions on that over history and over religions. You're picking the one you like and trying to make it sound more universal than it is.

      If it doesn't have human brain function, I don't consider it a person yet, and I've been told that 98% of abortions are done before there's human brain function, and the remaining 2% are usually out of medical necessity.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    66. Re:Ignorance? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Thing is, if I believe that the Universe is a computer simulation, I don't go around telling people that they'll be transferred to a pain server forever if they don't believe in the Programmer. I've met people who think I'll be in eternal torment if I don't believe in the Creator.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    67. Re:Ignorance? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Gravity needs no theory? The Pastafarian gospel teaches that there is no gravity, there's just Intelligent Falling, guided by His noodly appendages. (Seriously. I've got a copy of the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and I've read it.)

      Now, even if you've got the temerity to doubt the FSM, you can't prove that the Gospel is wrong on that.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    68. Re:Ignorance? by tlambert · · Score: 1

      Theocratic busybodies are no good at answering that question..

      Now at what point does a human first gain anything considered consciousness? That has yet to be proven, but most guesses put it at or around 15-20 weeks of gestation; around the same time the brain forms...

      Actually, cognitive psychologists put it at the point where someone can recognize themselves in a mirror. So if you are disinclined to accept religious involvement in definition of civil law because of a little thing called the Establishment Clause of the 1st amendment, i.e.: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...", and you happen to believe in the separation of church and state... they can go pound sand.

      We should no more make laws based on precepts of Christianity than we should make laws based on Sharia.

    69. Re:Ignorance? by tendrousbeastie · · Score: 1

      Against all the opposition on this site, I agree with you here. If science is to be defined as the aggregation of data and subsequent creation of theory to describe and explain it, then it matters not whether the world was created ten minutes ago by God with all the fossils and quasars and cosmic background radiations designed to look as if they're ancient.

      It wouldn't make any difference to the process of deducing universal laws from specific observations that is science.

      The only price one must pay is that one cannot ever therefore bring the God used in this scenario into a discussion of science, since s/he has by definition put itself outside of the scope of the scientific remit.

    70. Re:Ignorance? by tendrousbeastie · · Score: 1

      There is a professor at Oxford University, England, Nick Bostram, who has been arguing it for years: http://www.simulation-argument...

    71. Re:Ignorance? by beastofburdon · · Score: 1

      What are you referring to?

  2. Agree with content, not the name by s.petry · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Too many people will simply be turned off by the name. I fully agree that we are ignorant, but most people refuse to admit their own. We don't teach people to check facts or even show them how. We teach them to "Google" which returns the popular answer and that may not be correct (and probably is not).

    I could spend hours discussing "Classical" versus Industrial education. I could spend days explaining why teaching a rounded education is necessary and teaching only specialties runs counter to education. Liberal Arts (PHI) is essential, but most kids get a couple semesters of history instead.. and we wonder why people can't think critically, defend their own position, and perceive that disagreements with their opinions are personal attacks.

    Yeah, I got a college age kid so I see what's been happening.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dear Jesus. I hope your teaching kids critical thinking before college. If not we'll, that's a damn shame and a failure. My 6 year old can explain why something is right or wrong or if we don't have enough information to make an informed decision. That's just because we taught him that it's ok to ask why and we'd explain everything to him even if it took forever.

    2. Re:Agree with content, not the name by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My 6 year old can explain why something is right or wrong

      That's not the same as critical thinking.

      That's just because we taught him that it's ok to ask why and we'd explain everything to him even if it took forever.

      Asking "why" and getting an answer isn't how you learn critical thinking.

      Critical thinking is more like, "We have fact A, B, C, and D. Do these make sense together? Where did these facts come from? Should I trust them? How can I improve my confidence level in these facts?"

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:Agree with content, not the name by pr0fessor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Too many people will simply be turned off by the name.

      I agree, the words "ignorance" and "ignorant" are used far to often in a negative context. I can see how someone might think it insulting.

      When dealing with people you sometime have to choose your words carefully. "You may not have studied this..." is far less likely to cause an argument than "You may be ignorant of this..."

    4. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree. I tend to use the word correctly, but my wife and I had this conversation last night. Note that I have an PhD in engineering while my wife is working on hers after being away from school for 8 years (MS in engineering):
      "We need more research in the area of gallium nitride transistor manufacturing. Not being able to perform this type of research is one of the things holding back "
      "Why do we need gallium nitride? How does it compare against indium phosphate or other approaches? I'm ignorant on relative advantages of manufacturing."
      "You're not ignorant! You're really smart!"
      "Pft! My training is in software, everything I know about hardware manufacturing is incidental at best. Ignorant just means that I don't know anything about it..."

    5. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the military community, we would use the terms intelligence holes or intelligence gaps (don't even get me started on the oxymoron jokes... I've heard them all). Something like knowledge hole or knowledge gap would be better than "ignorance". Ignorance usually implies that somebody out there does have the knowledge already.

    6. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      My experience in the US education system was that critical thinking was completely optional at all levels including undergrad college (as far as I went).

      You can substitute brute force memorization of the specific facts that will be on the exam, and most educators seem to expect that to be the default solution rather than extrapolating general principles from which the answers can be derived for arbitrary cases at need. The closest thing to an exception was Math, but even that was often thought as "here's the steps to manipulate the symbols to solve this class of problems".

      Most of my classmates seemed to think that my ability to approach problems and determine how to solve them on the fly rather than memorizing specific stuff the night before the exam was some form of wizardry.

    7. Re:Agree with content, not the name by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree, the words "ignorance" and "ignorant" are used far to often in a negative context. I can see how someone might think it insulting.

      Colleges have become obsessed with how students feel about words. That's the first thing to fix. Life doesn't care how you feel, and you can't be an adult without accepting that.

      In this specific case "ignorance" is the point. There's so much that humanity just doesn't know, and there always will be. The best thing my high school physics teacher taught me was "the bigger the island of knowledge, the bigger the shore of ignorance".

      Every question you answer provokes more questions you can't answer, and that's what science is all about. Heck, sometimes new discoveries reveal quite surprising degrees of ignorance in humanity. "Wow, look at that, 80% of the matter in the universe is something we know nothing at all about. 80%! The best we can say is it's some sort of particle, probably. We can't even call the stuff we're made of 'normal matter', as we're the outlier."

      Research only exists because of ignorance. That fact does need to be taught - we have too much unquestioning acceptance of science-as-religion these days (there's just no way to reconcile unquestioning acceptance of authority with critical thinking, regardless of the selected authority).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    8. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dear god, I hope you are not the one responsible for teaching him spelling and punctuation!

    9. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Critical thinking is more like, "We have fact A, B, C, and D. Do these make sense together? Where did these facts come from? Should I trust them? How can I improve my confidence level in these facts?"

      Adding to the pile:

      Are these facts relevant? How can I be wrong in my conclusion or analysis?

    10. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find it somewhat amusing that people don't want to use (or learn) the word ignorant because they are ignorant of its actual meaning.

    11. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We don't even know whether we're the outlier. It could be that there is a zoo of particle types that constitute dark matter and that the portion of matter that we interact with is the most common type. That's how little we know.

    12. Re:Agree with content, not the name by steelfood · · Score: 1

      "the bigger the island of knowledge, the bigger the shore of ignorance".

      It's the opposite (sorta). The more you expand the shore of knowledge, the bigger the island of ignorance. The more we know and discover, the more we realize what we don't know and have yet to discover.

      And then there's the ocean of information around the island that in the famous (paraphrased) words of Donald Rumsfeld, you don't know you don't know.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    13. Re:Agree with content, not the name by jenningsthecat · · Score: 2

      I could spend hours discussing "Classical" versus Industrial education.

      I totally agree, and have been pointing out the distinction to anybody who'll listen for 20 or 30 years. However, what you call "classical education", I simply call "education", while what you call "industrial education", I call "job training".

      ...we wonder why people can't think critically, defend their own position, and perceive that disagreements with their opinions are personal attacks.

      Unfettered critical thinking among average citizens is not what corporate overlords want. People who can think critically and effectively, might put aside the bread and circuses and start asking embarrassing questions about concentration of wealth, war as an economic instrument, the propagandistic nature of Prime Time TV, corporations as persons, the 'economy' as a Ponzi scheme, etc.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    14. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Well I think we can all agree that blindly accepting what other people tell you as fact shows absolutely zero critical thinking. Questioning it, being able to understand explanations and making logical arguments on their own is a good step. Sure, the next step is being able to detect questionable premises, faulty logic, spurious reasoning and other fallacies but that's a pretty tall order for a six year old. Basically, if you don't know how to do it right you're not going to spot anyone doing it wrong, so I'd say he's on the very right track. Sounds like he's already passed certain adults...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    15. Re:Agree with content, not the name by jedidiah · · Score: 2

      I think there is a deeper problem there. In the broader culture, ignorance seems to imply not just a lack of knowledge but also a lack of desire to remedy that lack of knowledge.

      They don't know it and don't want to know it.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    16. Re:Agree with content, not the name by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      All your pretense does is serve to make you more difficult to communicate with. It's less useful and less descriptive. The only thing it really have going for it is "snark" and that's not really productive unless you just want to troll.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    17. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Asking "why" and getting an answer isn't how you learn critical thinking.

      Ah, but frowning and asking 'why' a second time is the starting point to critical thinking.

    18. Re:Agree with content, not the name by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      Pretense? Sorry, I don't understand.

      Otherwise, I suppose the post is a bit snarky, but I wasn't trolling, (I don't do that, at least not consciously), and what I said is an accurate expression of what I believe to be true. But if what I've said, (or the way I've said it), makes me more difficult to communicate with, then I apologize, and thank you for the heads-up.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    19. Re:Agree with content, not the name by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Sometimes it's a learned response because it makes your parents happy.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    20. Re:Agree with content, not the name by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I have no idea why you would want to call "classical education" something other than the name it has held for centuries. I also have no idea why you would call the Industrial system something other than it's name for nearly a century (it was the Prussian system prior). I perceive it as pompous, and believe it only muddies the waters for a rational discussion.

      The last part I agree with, and will simply say this is a historical normal. Knowledge is power, and just like other forms of power certain people attempt to hoard and prevent access to others.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    21. Re:Agree with content, not the name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I totally agree with you. I don't quite understand what you said, but it sounds very factual and correct and there's no point in overthinking this any more than that, obviously.
      I'll do what you say from now on, and let me say thank you! It's so refreshing to find out about the truth since reading so many conflicting comments on slashdot has been causing me to question everything all the time!

      Finally I'm free, and glad! Glad, glad, glad!

    22. Re:Agree with content, not the name by strikethree · · Score: 1

      My takeaway from the blurb about ignorance is that they, if education is seen as a roadmap, want to show the edges of the map so you do not lose the forest for the trees. But meh, I am likely wrong.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    23. Re:Agree with content, not the name by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      Colleges have become obsessed with how students feel about words. That's the first thing to fix. Life doesn't care how you feel, and you can't be an adult without accepting that

      Colleges have to care how their customers feel about their services. Life doesn't care how you feel but a college isn't life and has to treat it's students well if it hopes for them to keep paying large tuition fees every year. Just like any business hoping to have a loyal customer base.

    24. Re:Agree with content, not the name by lgw · · Score: 1

      As a business, the modern US university system is perpetrating criminal fraud to the greatest extent ever seen in mankind's history. Selling a product for $50-100k on the premise that it will improve your lifetime earnings more than enough to compensate for the debt, but only delivering on that for a few select degrees.

      Also, if a university cares about coddling its kids to the extent that they do not become adults ready to face the world, then it has failed at it's primary mission, and should be closed down to stop the damage it is doing to society. "You had one job" etc etc.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    25. Re:Agree with content, not the name by lgw · · Score: 1

      </i>

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    26. Re:Agree with content, not the name by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      I have no idea why you would want to call "classical education" something other than the name it has held for centuries.

      That was just ignorance on my part - until I looked it up in response to your reply I thought 'classical education' was simply about a broadly-based, eclectic education which views all knowledge as inter-related. I was unaware of the whole 'trivium' thing, so thank you for challenging what I wrote.

      I also have no idea why you would call the Industrial system something other than it's name for nearly a century (it was the Prussian system prior).

      I was being pejorative, and perhaps a bit of an asshole as well. I feel that the term 'Industrial Education' hides the nature of the beast; I see it as training for particular tasks in order to fill specific roles in a way that benefits those at the top of the social hierarchy more than it does those in the middle or at the bottom. To my mind 'job training' is more in keeping with what I see as the strongly utilitarian nature of Industrial Education.

      I perceive it as pompous, and believe it only muddies the waters for a rational discussion.

      Sorry about that. I guess I fell into the sound-bite mode of discussion that seems so prevalent today. That aside, I truly am interested in honest and open dialog about such things.

      The last part I agree with, and will simply say this is a historical normal. Knowledge is power, and just like other forms of power certain people attempt to hoard and prevent access to others.

      Have you read any of Morris Berman's books? If not, then I recommend 'The Reenchantment of the World' and 'Wandering God'. They have a lot to say about what human consciousness might have been like before we learned to store wealth and before we developed strongly vertical social hierarchies.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    27. Re:Agree with content, not the name by s.petry · · Score: 1

      was being pejorative, and perhaps a bit of an asshole as well. I feel that the term 'Industrial Education' hides the nature of the beast; I see it as training for particular tasks in order to fill specific roles in a way that benefits those at the top of the social hierarchy more than it does those in the middle or at the bottom. To my mind 'job training' is more in keeping with what I see as the strongly utilitarian nature of Industrial Education.

      Thanks for doing the additional homework to find what Classical education is. I can only request that you do the same work with Industrial Education (probably start with Prussian). The purpose of that system is not to train people for a role or job. It's purpose is to generate people capable of enough thought to follow orders but nothing more. Your term "job training" is absolutely incorrect because that is not what happens.

      The apology is noted and appreciated. Like you, I want to see open dialogue and discourse on the subject. This requires that people understand the mechanics and Socratic method (Philosophy, not Sophism).

      Have you read any of Morris Berman's books? If not, then I recommend 'The Reenchantment of the World' and 'Wandering God'. They have a lot to say about what human consciousness might have been like before we learned to store wealth and before we developed strongly vertical social hierarchies.

      I have not read these and they may be interesting so I'll add to my list. There is not a lot of speculation required to see how things work without greed, numerous people in history have been models. Socrates and Plato immediately come to mind, and if you read the history surrounding Jesus (yes, that one) you will find numerous parallels. Compare the Dialogues of Plato with the New Testament for example.

      I will add that manipulation of knowledge for the masses has been performed for thousands of years. The purpose of "The Allegory of the Cave" is to point this out and request that people take action to prevent it.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  3. Clickbait title ? by Crashmarik · · Score: 0

    Really, teaching ignorance is not teaching what the limits to our knowledge are. Just looking at slashdot you can see the negative effects of people that don't understand the limits of what is known let alone what is knowable.

    1. Re:Clickbait title ? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 0

      Agreed. They aren't advocating "teaching ignorance". that is something young-earth creationists do.

      This is saying to accept that we are ignorant about things; and that if we know what things we are ignorant about, we can handle things intelligently.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    2. Re:Clickbait title ? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 2

      Oh wait, its a HughPickens post. Nevermind, I understand now, carry on.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    3. Re:Clickbait title ? by OakDragon · · Score: 2

      The original title was This Professor Suggests Teaching Ignorance : What Happens Next... I Can't Even.

    4. Re:Clickbait title ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, just wow.

    5. Re:Clickbait title ? by hey! · · Score: 2

      Well, I think it's more complicated than that. People are not just ignorant of the limitations of knowledge, they're ignorant of the limitations of ignorance.

      In fact, I'd say faulty appeals to ignorance are much more common here than faulty appeals to knowledge. People will say "How can we know X when we don't know Y?" when in fact it's quite possible to know X without Y, and in any case we actually know a lot more about Y than the poster thinks.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  4. Ignorance cannot be taught by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a gift conveyed at conception.

  5. Cosmology and Astrophysics Too by paradigmsareconstruc · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a very large problem. We teach the students to memorize problem set recipes (aka exemplars), and the paradigm over time extends the exemplars to new observations regardless of how good the fit is. People then go online to criticize competing ideas, oftentimes without any awareness of the details of the debate. It's very rare to observe people running claims back-and-forth between the theorists and their critics -- and that's even though many theorists who disagree with the textbook theories make themselves available by email for rebuttals.

    We should teach scientific controversies, and we should be teaching them very differently than the other domains which might not significantly change for another hundred years. Currently, academia simply pretends that many longstanding controversies simply do not exist, and these controversies can predictably act as an innovation bottleneck over time. If all we did was show students that there are competing arguments which oftentimes differ at the point of the initial hypothesis, students would become far better at asking good research questions. And this single change to the way that we teach science could secure our technological lead for another century.

    Thank you for posting this article. It's honestly very rare to see here on Slashdot, and yet also very important.

    1. Re:Cosmology and Astrophysics Too by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      even though many theorists who disagree with the textbook theories make themselves available by email for rebuttals.

      That's a good point.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:Cosmology and Astrophysics Too by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Really? That's not my experience in academia.

      Whenever I went into a class where there might be controversies, they usually covered them. History classes tried to show me disagreements. Science classes that were sufficiently advanced mentioned different hypotheses.

      This wasn't the case all that much in K-12, although my Social Studies classes discussed some controversial things. However, what science is taught in K-12 is usually pretty solidly established, so there are no controversies.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  6. Awesome draw for budding scientists by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When I was in high school, I found anatomy and biology boring, because it seemed like memorizing a finalized taxonomy of living creatures' details. If I'd had an appreciation for both how insanely awesome living creatures' designs are and that there are lots of mysteries still to be solved, I'd have been far more likely to get into the field. Ditto for chemistry and physics.

    1. Re:Awesome draw for budding scientists by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      Ditto for chemistry and physics.

      Compared to biology, there's less taxonomy in chemistry and far less in physics.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    2. Re:Awesome draw for budding scientists by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ditto for chemistry and physics.

      Compared to biology, there's less taxonomy in chemistry and far less in physics.

      I'd say that as a highschooler, taxonomy made biology seem like a completed field, and the supposed explanatory power of Newton's laws (at a medium scale) and relativity made physics seem approximately completed. In both cases, I was left with a distinct lack of sense of wonder, because it seemed like ongoing research was just spending huge amounts of effort tidying up arcane little corners of the knowledge base.

    3. Re:Awesome draw for budding scientists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ditto for chemistry and physics.

      Compared to biology, there's less taxonomy in chemistry and far less in physics.

      Organic Chemistry has a LOT of memorization, but much of that is because the subject is often taught wrong and the professors try to make it understandable to the pre-med students. It's rare to find a Orgo professor who actually teaches the why behind all the reactions and functional groups rather than just expecting everyone to look at a bunch of flash cards every night and then forget much of it down the road.

  7. Not a bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd like to see a book on mathematical proofs that includes a discussion of attempted proofs that turn out to be wrong and exercises to prove theorems that might turn out to be false. It's kind of annoying that so many exercises in books are of the form "prove X" where you already know that X can be proved, as if all mathematicians were clairvoyant.

    1. Re:Not a bad idea by ClickOnThis · · Score: 2

      Being ignorant is not the same as being wrong.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    2. Re:Not a bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about book form, but courses I had in undergrad and grad school involved a lot of homework problems of the form, "Prove X, or show it is wrong." You couldn't just half-ass a proof and assume you got most of it with one vague step, but had to make sure you were certain, otherwise you needed to go back to checking if a counterexample exists.

  8. Teaching Ignorance, And Other Crutches by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 1

    I think if you have to teach that we are ignorant, you are acknowledging that your students are simply not very curious or are regurgitating data to pass the exam, get good GPA, enter workforce to earn money. Which is, in fact, the reality the majority of the time, and that's just fine.

    I see no reason to teach people what we don't know, because to quote Rumsfeld about something entirely different: "...as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know..."

    How can you teach about ignorance from a stance of known unknowns? You have to rely on the student, at some point, to look critically at something and say "that's bullshit". Science is built on a fairly solid foundation, but it isn't granite. Students should be challenging not only the new stuff, but also the stuff we think we already know, not simply sitting in their seats listening to the Pastor give his Sermon on Physics.

    1. Re:Teaching Ignorance, And Other Crutches by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 0

      I think if you have to teach that we are ignorant, you are acknowledging that your students are simply not very curious or are regurgitating data to pass the exam, get good GPA, enter workforce to earn money. .

      I gotta say - WTF on the whole concept. Sounds like its saying we have to teach what we don't know.

      And I never had a science teacher that ever said "We know everything" .

      Knowing everything is for politicians and people who answer everything as "Jesus" or "Ancient Aliens".

      Oddly enough, making the scientists the only people who admit to ig....

      Gotta go! Keeping up with the Kardashians is on now!

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    2. Re:Teaching Ignorance, And Other Crutches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I never had a science teacher that ever said "We know everything" .

      But how many science teachers ever said "we don't know everything?"

    3. Re:Teaching Ignorance, And Other Crutches by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      And I never had a science teacher that ever said "We know everything" .

      But how many science teachers ever said "we don't know everything?"

      All of mine.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
  9. Why is "ignorant" a pejorative? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ignorance is no sin.

    Willful ignorance is unforgivable.

  10. I teach a course somewhat similar by edremy · · Score: 3, Insightful
    More on how we know things rather than how little we know, but it touches on a lot of the same issues. We spend a lot of time on the trial of Galileo and how we know the Earth goes around the Sun. It's far harder to show than most people think. If you exclude "I've seen photos from space" I suspect less than 1 in 100 people can give the correct answer of stellar parallax. Galileo proudly announced in 1610 that we'd soon see the proof - he was still waiting for anyone to see it by the time of his second trial in 1633. It wouldn't be officially discovered for 200 more years- so why was Galileo so sure he was right?

    Science isn't blindingly obvious- if it was someone would have discovered it ages ago. It's piecing together tiny bits of evidence until something coherent starts to become visible, and even then most of the time someone else comes and kicks apart your jigsaw puzzle with new data

    --
    "Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
    1. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Of course, the reason why stellar parallax proof was so long in coming was because the stars were so much further away than anybody suspected, making the parallax incredibly tiny. What really convinced people was how simply it explained planetary motion (as opposed to the impossibly complex epicycles of the Ptolemaic system) combined with the discovery of Jupiter's moons, which, while not in itself a proof of the Copernican system, was proof that not everything revoled around the Earth.

    2. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by edremy · · Score: 1
      Except you then have a problem- why aren't we flung off the Earth? Spin around while holding a ball and let the ball go- it doesn't stay stuck to you.

      Aristotle has the answer here- we're stationary and earth moves towards its natural place at the center of the universe. Copernicus and Galileo have no such explanation, and indeed their result seems to be physically impossible.

      (And for everyone who thinks "duh, gravity", check the dates we're talking about)

      --
      "Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
    3. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by nine-times · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We spend a lot of time on the trial of Galileo and how we know the Earth goes around the Sun. It's far harder to show than most people think.

      I sometimes cite a similar example of Ptolemy. People too often thing the Ptolemaic model is stupid, but really it's very good at predicting the phenomena that people at the time would experience. Ptolemy wasn't stupid. IIRC, he seems to notice that the epicycles line up so that the centers seem to coincide. He even cites the example of being on a boat, watching the shore recede away when really the ship is moving, the way that motion seems relative to the observer, and relates this to the possibility that the earth is moving. He just doesn't have a firm reason to think that the earth is moving.

      It's easy now, in hindsight, to see that Newton's model is much better. It especially makes sense once you've had the opportunity to get up onto the moon and some other planets, and you know for a fact that they're made of the same material that Earth is made of. But then, even Newton's model isn't quite right, and a lot of physics these days ultimately come down to, "We don't really understand why things work the way that they do, and some of our rules don't seem to apply the same way at all times and at all levels, but we know enough to do most of the things we're trying to do." On a deep level, we still don't understand how time and space work.

    4. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I'm an idiot, or at least I specialize in a rather different field, but it seems to me that even with general relativity, you could say that the Sun goes around the Earth. It's just a change of coordinate system, no?

      I'm not saying that it isn't a useful coordinate system to pick with the Sun in the middle, but it seems like there's no reason you couldn't pick whatever frame of reference you want. The Earth goes around Neptune, does it not?

    5. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What really convinced people was how simply it explained planetary motion (as opposed to the impossibly complex epicycles of the Ptolemaic system)

      By the time of Galileo, the epicycle explanation already disagreed with newer more detailed observations. It wasn't so much the complexity, but the complexity plus being wrong.

    6. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps I'm an idiot, or at least I specialize in a rather different field, but it seems to me that even with general relativity, you could say that the Sun goes around the Earth. It's just a change of coordinate system, no?

      I'm not saying that it isn't a useful coordinate system to pick with the Sun in the middle, but it seems like there's no reason you couldn't pick whatever frame of reference you want. The Earth goes around Neptune, does it not?

      No.
      You could plot the sun't position relative to the Earth's center. However under GR you can trivially determine that the Sun is not in a terrestrial orbit, and either there must be some unaccounted for force moving it, or the Earth is in a Solar orbit.

    7. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1
    8. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Yes, you could, however it's more than just a change of coordinate systems, because it's not an inertial frame of reference. It's a frame of reference that's constantly accelerating. To make matters worse, the acceleration would be constantly changing. The complexities of working in such a frame of reference would be unmanageable as well as completely unnecessary. And that's the reason you wouldn't pick it.

    9. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the Sun also accelerates relative to the Milky Way, or even the Earth acts upon the Sun. So it seems to me that, if you start with knowledge of modern physics, the sentence, "the Earth goes around the Sun", should not really be uttered ever. It is a combination of approximations that are satisfied in a certain set of circumstances, such as if you are navigating the Solar system. And if you wanted to be completely accurate, you'd have to add in all the stuff of choosing a different frame of reference anyway.

      It is like teaching someone chess by saying that you should always start with 1. e4. Which is a good idea. But then you get someone that does 1. Nc3, and they don't know what to do.

    10. Re:I teach a course somewhat similar by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1
      I'm late to the party here, but just happened to be reading through this thread...

      What really convinced people was how simply it explained planetary motion (as opposed to the impossibly complex epicycles of the Ptolemaic system)

      Except we're talking about Galileo here, who believed in circular orbits, as did Copernicus. Circular orbits still require significant numbers of epicycles as corrections, so these systems are not necessarily simpler mathematically.

      Kepler of course proposed elliptical orbits, which did simplify the math considerably, but Galileo summarily rejected that possibility.

      combined with the discovery of Jupiter's moons, which, while not in itself a proof of the Copernican system, was proof that not everything revoled around the Earth.

      And that's one of the reasons that many (probably most) scientists who cared about this began to take the Tychonic model of the solar system seriously, which still posited that the universe as a whole revolved around the earth, but other bodies like the Sun and Jupiter might have their own satellites.

      At the time of Galileo's trial, there weren't that many scientists who yet took a Copernican model as reality, and probably even fewer who knew of and agreed with Kepler. Aside from the parallax problem, there were a lot more difficulties with the heliocentric theory in terms of science of that day, and Galileo's ways of explaining away objections was usually to attack people who disagreed and call them idiots while offering up nonsensical arguments of his own. (His main proof that the earth was in motion, for example, involved a theory of tides that required only one high tide per day at noon. Obviously this contradicted empirical evidence, and everybody could easily recognize it, but that was the best proof Galileo had... in the face of millennia of previous scientists and arguments about why the earth was at rest.)

      Obviously his persecution and trial was terrible. But there were lots of obstacles to accepting his theory at that time.

  11. In math these are called "open problems" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't see the advantage of renaming it "ignorance".

  12. Good luck with that in the US by H3lldr0p · · Score: 2

    We don't teach how to fail in any segment of our schooling, which is somewhat necessary in addressing ignorance. Failure is taught to be avoided at all costs. Failure is mocked, ridiculed as a personal flaw instead of something that everyone experiences. We don't teach that failure is something that happens even when we've put our best effort into the work. That failure happens when you've done everything right and according to the rules. And in neither of those cases is failure something bad. It's just something that happens in life.

    1. Re:Good luck with that in the US by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      I've noticed this too, and recently started to wonder whether this attitude towards failure varies with cultural or other social factors. But then again, I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to those kinds of things.

    2. Re:Good luck with that in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Japan's expectations of success are so ingrained that people who consider themselves failures often commit suicide rather than try to redeem their name.

      Greece's economic system seems to be based on a "If at first you don't succeed, get more money and keep doing the same thing!" model.

      USA politics (and many companies) often recognize and reward the ability to successfully avoid the consequences of your massive failures rather than the ability to actually do your job right.

  13. Ignorance is a time honored institution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just take any college based political science course at predominantly left-leaning schools. They'll set you straight on which brand of ignorance to believe.

  14. Global Warming... by galabar · · Score: 0

    Global Warming: go! ...gets popcorn. :)

  15. Not so ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The ignorance which can be taught is not the true ignorance.

    The ignorance can not be taught, and cannot be learned.

    The dumbasses who take this course will add their own ignorance to the teachings of ignorance, and conclude we know nothing.

    By teaching ignorance, you will only increase it.

    The world doesn't need more stupid, least of all in America.

    1. Re:Not so ... by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      I think the idea is to actually teach students where we have gaps in our ability to explain things.

      There are many things that are taken to be scientific facts which are anything but proven, and you'd know that if you asked certain experts in the fields.

      The problem is that many of us assume that we collectively know more than we actually do, and it gives students the incorrect idea that there is nothing more to be learned, or that they will be doing relatively trivial research. In that sense, we need to explain where the frontiers are, and some of them are hiding in places we didn't expect them to be.

      It's not really a course on being ignorant, it is a course to help students to learn where to start looking to find unsolved mysteries.

      Such a course would be hugely important because it allows us to discover more questions to answer as well as giving some motivation to those who might otherwise be bored or disheartened by the lack of a frontier.

  16. What causes gravity? by Snufu · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That boggles the mind. Even something as fundamental to our daily experience as gravity, and we don't know what it is. We describe its effects, and we have a few theories about its cause, but when an apple falls out of a tree, we don't know why it falls to the ground.

    The fact of this ignorance should be taught in the first lesson.

    1. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is philosophy. We don't know that we aren't in the Matrix, either. We don't know why anything is, scientifically speaking. Science doesn't really do "why" except schematically.

    2. Re:What causes gravity? by keko · · Score: 1

      I felt the same thing when studying the wave-particle duality theory back in the day. Everyone was happy thinking of it as an absolute truth... even professors, and they expected the same from you.

      Saying "it's just the best way we have to explain right now... pretty much like æther a century ago." was usually a confrontational thing to bring up.

    3. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Actually it's life. Just because some members of our species have forgotten to live theirs, doesn't mean our children will stop playing when we're not watching.

      Captcha: overhang

    4. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Masses attract each other. We can measure the strength of this attraction and relate it to the mass of the objects involved by checking the speed at which they move towards each other. By doing this at many angles we can discover the gravitational environment that we inhabit at any given time. The force of the attraction as related to the masses around us is called "gravity" which is an arbitrary label given by humans for convenience. Thus, gravity is caused by the attraction masses have for other masses.

      So it is demonstrated!

      You're welcome; now I'm off to my next gig.

    5. Re:What causes gravity? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      What gravity is is certainly not philosophy. Why would you even think that?

      Gravity has a cause and a mechanism for how it does what it does which is currently undiscovered. Science should certainly be able to discover both of those unless such a thing is impossible due to physical limitations on what we can measure. Then, and only then, would speculation on the causes and mechanism of gravity be more philosophy than science.

    6. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unless you're wrong, and gravity IS a cause instead of having a cause. That's certainly in the area of philosophy.

      You clearly misunderstand science if you think it is only concerned with the deductive-nomological model. And you clearly misunderstand philosophy if you don't realize that it takes more than science to construct scientific theory.

    7. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What gravity is is certainly not philosophy. Why would you even think that?

      We can describe the electromagnetic force, perhaps in much more detail than gravity. But what is a photon? What causes photons to exist? Do you really know what a photon is? Can you give an answer that is not in terms of other words that make up our present model of the electromagnetic force?

      I do not know what is special about gravity in this sense except for the structure of the English language.

    8. Re:What causes gravity? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I can certainly be wrong, but I'm not the one insisting that it is a subject for philosophy only.

      As I said, if we determine, after investigation, that we cannot measure gravity, then it is a matter of philosophy. We're not even close to that point yet.

    9. Re:What causes gravity? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      I don't know what a photon or gravity are, but I didn't say I did. I am saying that both investigations are still the subject of science, which they certainly are.

      One question that is almost certainly philosophical is the quest to be able to describe a deity. That's almost certainly philosophical because the subject itself, by definition, has the power to avoid measurement if he wishes. While such a being could decide to demonstrate miracles in an rigorously controlled experiment to prove his capabilities, so far, no deity has stepped forward to do so.

      You are confusing answering difficult questions with "philosophy". It may be that the answers will only ever be philosophical due to our inability to measure anything related to gravity or photons, but we're certainly not that far enough along yet to even suggest that we can know that. There are plenty of things that are waiting to be measured.

    10. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, I'm saying if we make perfect measurements, every single time, the scientific process (for fun, let us say the Baconian version), will never be able to answer the thread's question of "what causes gravity?". Never. No study, no amount of money, no matter how smart a person is. "What causes gravity?" is not a difficult question, it is philosophical question.

      "How strong is the gravitational force when flying along a black hole at near the speed of light, for an object 1 mm across?" is a difficult question, which one day we may be able to experimentally and theoretically formulate an answer for. "What caused it?" is philosophy.

    11. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I said, if we determine, after investigation, that we cannot measure gravity, then it is a matter of philosophy. We're not even close to that point yet.

      WTF? We can measure the force that gravity has on another thing. What more do you want? Your sentences make no sense.

    12. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know what a photon or gravity are, but I didn't say I did. I am saying that both investigations are still the subject of science, which they certainly are.

      Slashdot car analogy:

      If you show me a car, and I can run any test I want on it, I can tell you what engine it has, what make and model, what improvements were made, how many miles it has on it, and if it has a new car smell.

      No matter how many tests I run, and now matter how skilled I am as a mechanic, I will never be able to tell you how much you paid for the car. That is an economic question, not a question about cars.

    13. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh what?

      No..Newton described it's effects. Einstein proved what it was. We know precisely what it is and why it falls to the ground.

      Gravity is the effect of distortion in the matrix of space/time due to objects which have mass.
      It's called relativity..look into it.

    14. Re:What causes gravity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that's where the problem lies. There's this notion that the scientific method can discover it all, figure it all out... but there's no proof that it can.

    15. Re:What causes gravity? by strikethree · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Gravity is the result of space being curved in relation to time. Space and time are a result of energy being "tied in knots" to create matter. A black hole is literally the edge of the universe. There is no spacetime without matter. There is no matter without bound energy. Hence, the infinite point of energy for the big bang is the only descriptive term for a universe of pure energy since there is no matter to create space time.

      The big bang was a "cooling" of the energy, which solidified into matter. As matter was "created", spacetime was created and expanded as a result thereof. The rest is pretty clear at this point although the implications are not.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    16. Re:What causes gravity? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      That is philosophy. We don't know that we aren't in the Matrix, either. We don't know why anything is, scientifically speaking. Science doesn't really do "why" except schematically.

      The theory of electromagnetism explains how we see objects. There is no analogous explanation for what causes the perceived effects of gravity or consciousness.

      It's not a non-scientific "philosophical" question, we just don't (yet) know how gravity or consciousness work.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    17. Re:What causes gravity? by tehcyder · · Score: 1
      You don't need to know "why" a photon exists, it is enough to know that they exist, and you can measure them and their effects.

      We don't have anything similar with gravity at the moment, but that doesn't mean it will always be a mysterious or miraculous force.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    18. Re:What causes gravity? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      No, I'm saying if we make perfect measurements, every single time, the scientific process (for fun, let us say the Baconian version), will never be able to answer the thread's question of "what causes gravity?". Never. No study, no amount of money, no matter how smart a person is. "What causes gravity?" is not a difficult question, it is philosophical question.

      You seem to be mixing up two different questions: "how does gravity work?" and "why does gravity exist?"

      Science can answer the first question, and the second is either meaningless or theological depending on your point of view.

      For example, we know how hydrogen and oxygen combine to make water. We do not know why hydrogen and oxygen exist in the first place, other than that is how the universe appears to be.

      You can answer any causal question with "because God said so" but that is not a falsifiable response.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    19. Re:What causes gravity? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It's just inertia. All objects will follow their current spacetime trajectory unless diverted somehow from it. Spacetime trajectories aren't all parallel in the presence of mass, and the math that supports that can get really hairy.

      While the apple sits in the tree, you can plot its trajectory, but it's continually diverted from it by the stem. When it isn't held by anything, it continues with its movement unhindered, which movement is towards the center of the Earth at a certain acceleration. Then it is continually diverted from its inertial path by pressure from the surface of the Earth.

      There's plenty of things we don't know, but the fact that you don't know the basics of General Relativity doesn't mean nobody does.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    20. Re:What causes gravity? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      We've observed wave-particle duality a very large number of times in a large number of ways over the past century-plus, and lots of people have tried to come up with other explanations. The theory doesn't have the same sort of internal problems that the luminiferous aether did.

      Scientists have to assume that some things are proven until somebody comes up with a really weird explanation for things that turns out to work. If we keep testing the same basics of physics, to see if they're still there, we're not going to get any real work done. (That said, physicists do try to replicate old experiments with more sensitive equipment and protocols. They still haven't found ether drift no matter how good their Michelson-Morley apparatus is. That doesn't stop physics teachers from just teaching Special Relativity, though.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  17. Not omitted, just not in flashing neon by macraig · · Score: 2

    When I was in elementary and high school, I learned the incompleteness of science well enough; it was not omitted, at least not for those who were actually interested enough to PAY ATTENTION. No, it wasn't described explicitly in big neon flashing letters, but honestly should it be? As I said, someone paying attention would have extrapolated this message. Don't we want scientists who are actually interested enough in the subject to pay attention to the messages not presented in neon?

    1. Re:Not omitted, just not in flashing neon by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      When I was in school in the early 1980's, the history textbooks stopped before Vietnam and Watergate. My fellow classmates were content that history stopped before they were born, and didn't care about what came afterward. I was always bothered by history being missing like that. College did a much better job on current history since the publishers needed to change something each year to charge higher prices for new editions and undermine the used textbook market.

  18. Isn't that what Science is? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1
    The constant learning, the exploration of what is not known?

    .
    The constant updating of our knowledge as we learn new things?

    1. Re:Isn't that what Science is? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. The scientific method by itself does none of those things by itself. To do those things, you have to apply that method to unanswered questions which you can suggest a hypothesis for.

      If you don't have a question to ask, you don't have a hypothesis to falsify. Science isn't equivalent to exploration.

  19. don't draw their attention by Thud457 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.

    H.P. Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  20. Sure, and I'll decide who's ignorant thank you by codeAlDente · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Teaching ignorance directly would require an honest assessment of things like religion, central banking, chiropractors, mathematical ability and pharmaceuticals. This would require strong tenure protection for an individual teacher, or it would likely devolve into trivialities and historical anecdotes that would lead students to assume that important questions are generally irrelevant or settled in modern times. One idea is that education exists to convey the certainty by which things are known, and to prepare students for critical thinking that will improve their estimates of factual certainty with time. Another idea is that education should firstly prepare students to be productive citizens. While these ideas are not always in conflict, knowledge and critical thinking will not be tolerated when money, ideology or power can be gained or preserved through ignorance.

    --
    He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
    1. Re:Sure, and I'll decide who's ignorant thank you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >central banking

      Look into the history of modern banking. There's a reason things are the way they are today, and it has nothing to do with a new word order or lizard men pretending to be politians. Sure, it's not perfect, and the Muslim system might work a little better than Western banking, but put into a historical context, the current banking system makes perfect sense.

    2. Re:Sure, and I'll decide who's ignorant thank you by codeAlDente · · Score: 1

      A look into the history of central banking is exactly the kind of thing that could be introduced into a class about ignorance. It might contrast the web page of NY Fed with the book The Creature from Jekyll Island. It might explain the difference between fractional reserve banking and central banking, and recall that (despite Biddle's best efforts of economic terrorism) nothing terrible happened when Andrew Jackson killed a central bank. It might end with LIBOR fixing, god's work, and the half life of economies that convert from hard currency to a system of fiat currency. Instead, central bankers depend on the public's ignorance of exactly how much is being stolen, and their fear of tanks in the streets.

      --
      He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
  21. I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I also think that the more your know, i.e. the less ignorant you are, the more you realize how much more there is to know. And it become more and more clear that you will never know everything. I think it kind of goes hand in hand. If someone is mostly ignorant they they are also likely to have no idea how ignorant they actually are.

  22. Identifying the unknown inspires students by ganv · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When the instructor effectively places the material they are presenting in a larger framework including unknowns, it is often quite inspiring. Textbooks in mathematics and physics are the worst in this regard. They try to paint their presentation as the complete story on the subject and that leaves students bored. Even just a little bit of explaining the complex problems that are being sidestepped by the way the course material was chosen can greatly enliven a course. Even better, the students come out with an understanding of where the methods they learned will work and where they will not.

    1. Re:Identifying the unknown inspires students by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not just uninspiring, it's disengaging.

      Think of it from a student's perspective. They are taught from the time they are small, "this is what you need to know". And it's taught exactly that way, as a progression, their progression, from ignorance to educated. So it's trivially easy for the student to get caught in a mode of "these are the facts and my job is to learn them." Except this isn't terribly active or engaged. They are being spoon fed information and it's a treadmill.

      It takes an exceptional student or teacher to get off the treadmill. "This much is believed to be true as it fits all the known facts. The next part is the best known explanation but it's also known to be incomplete. The third part is speculative. The fourth matter is completely unknown and there's likely a Nobel for the first person who develops a robust and complete explanation."

      You see, students are rarely asked to study something completely new. That stuff is reserved for the Serious Scientist. Thus the students rarely get to experience the thrill of the hunt, or the disappointment and boredom of failed investigations.

    2. Re:Identifying the unknown inspires students by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Mathematics textbooks do tell the complete story on what they cover. If there are any issues not covered, they're explicitly listed as not being proved there, or left as an exercise for the reader. If a theorem is proved, there is no sidestepping, and any complex problems are handled already.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  23. Re:Add Feminism to the list by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of these things is not like the other....

  24. Undergrad or Graduate classes? by haroem · · Score: 1

    Because if they're undergrad classes then the goal of the classes is to fill in the already missing information that students don't know. If they're graduate classes then the goal of the classes should be to assist with finding new information so there's less missing information out there. What point would this class have in undergrad where the student is supposed to assume they don't know everything about the subject? What point would this class have in grad school where the student is expected to help reduce ignorance on the subject they are studying?

    1. Re:Undergrad or Graduate classes? by codeAlDente · · Score: 1

      Is this really the expectation of undergrads now, that the goal of the classes is to fill in the already missing information that students don't know? If so, then the point would be to introduce and expand a third possibility, namely that some things are worth thinking about, but can’t be neatly classified as facts that are not yet known to students.

      --
      He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
    2. Re:Undergrad or Graduate classes? by haroem · · Score: 1

      classically this has always been the expectation of undergrads. IMO the needle has moved too far to "learning to deal with all situations ever thrown at you" instead of "you now know how to perform this discipline adequately, go get a job." the things that are worth thinking about but can't be classified are what you're supposed to talk to your professors about during their office hours or over lunch. Having a class dedicated to learning something that everybody can explain at that level is just another excuse to offer 1000 classes so there's some obscure reason to keep raising tuition now that every dorm seems to have its own wellness center and olympic swimming pool.

    3. Re:Undergrad or Graduate classes? by codeAlDente · · Score: 1

      I would argue that this is the classical expectation of a trade school, and that college should encourage critical thinking. This unfortunately does not appear to be the current trend.

      --
      He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
  25. Unknown unknowns by RayHs · · Score: 1

    "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know." - Donald Rumsfeld I could just imagine the course beginning with this quote.

    1. Re:Unknown unknowns by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      As a way to describe the problem of trying to attain complete information in any scenario, it is a very appropriate quote.

      As an excuse for failing to do the work to discover the unknown unknowns in Iraq, it didn't cut it.

    2. Re:Unknown unknowns by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Iraq came off as it did because of things we either knew and pretended we didn't, or we knew we should know and didn't. We weren't bushwhacked by unknown unknowns there.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  26. Balancing Act by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    Teaching ignorance would be a tricky balancing act. Too far on one side and you're right back into the "here's the set science - nothing new to discover and no arguments exist" camp. Too far on the other side and you're in the "Evolution clearly isn't 'set science' because we don't know all of these things*" camp. The key is to teach kids "this is our best understanding given the evidence we have today but science is constantly learning more every day." This way you give kids a foundation in established science (avoiding the "scientists don't know nothing" group) while not having them think that everything is set in stone.

    * We actually do know 90% of the things that the creationists bring up and have a pretty good idea about the remaining 10%.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
  27. Re:Add Feminism to the list by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cue the mansplaining

  28. Wisdom by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    Frankly, this is something that I recognize as wisdom.

    As I've grown older, it's become more and more apparent to me that "experts" may be especially well TRAINED, but that doesn't mean they're particularly smart, or even good at what they do (per the observation that half of all the doctors you meet are below-average).

    I've found that basic common sense, reason, and a willingness to ask questions whenever something doesn't make sense - and to recognize a line of bullshit when it's being delivered - are far, far more useful intellectual tools than those degrees someone might have.

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:Wisdom by codeAlDente · · Score: 1

      Half of all doctors may be below average, but 68% are still above the median when it comes to recognizing a line of bullshit ;)

      --
      He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
  29. Finally finished explaining everything. by uCallHimDrJ0NES · · Score: 1

    I've summarized all known and unknown information accurately, and published it. You can buy any papers you need, and stop worrying about this topic now. Why not take the extra time I've made for you to adopt a new vegetative state? Finally, you've arrived! Congratulations, GRADUATES!!!

    --
    Cloudiot: A person who does not see offsite storage as a way to lose control over access to his or her own data.
  30. It's under So-crates by Etcetera · · Score: 3, Funny

    "The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing."

    "That's us, dude." The Two Great Ones

  31. I really like this idea a lot by millertym · · Score: 1

    This article made me take a step back and ponder my own kid's current education, as well as how mine went throughout my growing up years. I think they hit the nail on the head about something I had never thought too much about. Personally, I think I'm going to make a point of bringing just how many questions are still out there about various topics I talk about with my kids. It seems so obvious how important that is - and yet information over my entire life has always been presented in a confident and certain manner, in which what we don't know is left out of the discussion.

  32. I can relate... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As a software engineer in research and development organizations for the past 30 years one of the infuriating things to me is how many engineers/developers/architects will get a very, very cursory introduction to an emerging topic...say AI for instance, then think they are experts in it. Even going so far as to try to design/develop systems to solve problems which the top scientists in the field haven't tackled.

    They'll read a book on ..say "collective intelligence" or "emergent intelligence" or whatever and then think they are experts on developing swarm software. I often find myself being the only engineer in meetings saying "uh...people...we don't know shit about this!" which is greeted with "it's not that complex.." followed by 2 or 3 engineers pursuing a completely failed project. I/we have the freedom to decide what we work on often, so I am usually able to avoid the post mortems. I notice this seems to be happening more and more with younger engineers, so I don't know if this is a cultural shift related to the whole myth of the genius young programmer/startup guru...with everyone in CS programs around the country thinking they are the next Sergei Brin or something...or with this generation of engineers having had the internet their whole lives, perhaps access to all information has given them the belief that they comprehend it all or something?

    Ever since that god forsaken Larry Wall quote, it seems that many young engineers have taken the hubris part way, way too much to heart...

    I don't know...but it's idiotic..a wast of time and energy..and expensive. The smartest/most productive people I have every met, realize what their limitations are and plan accordingly.

  33. One of my favourite quotes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    [...] Un auteur ne nuit jamais tant à ses lecteurs que quand il dissimule une difficulté.
    ([...] An author never does more damage to his readers than when he hides a difficulty.)

    Évariste Galois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89variste_Galois)

  34. Re:Add Feminism to the list by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    nono.. Please explain to me how the first three are all immutable facts...

  35. Known unknowns by g01d4 · · Score: 1

    It seems to me that many (in some fields possibly most) scientific papers have always pointed out that further work needs to be done. Calling it "ignorance" isn't profound nor does it help when applying for additional grant money.

    1. Re:Known unknowns by codeAlDente · · Score: 1

      However, “more work needs to be done” often seems more like a disclaimer than an actual admission of the current state of knowledge. For example, author writes paper about neural networks, author assumes synapses are simple linear devices, author emphasizes importance of work, author notes that more should be done to undertand how brains work. But the proposed work to be done is not an admission that the author’s model assumptions violate everything we know about synapses. The actual level of Ignorance is not acknowledged, but instead modesty is falsely implied by the authors’ ignorance with respect to a lofty goal, such as curing mental illness or evolving into pure energy. Make no mistake - science papers in many fields convey an inflated sense of understanding, and grant money often follows outrageous claims of truth or significance.

      --
      He once inserted random mutations into his code, just so he could have the experience of debugging.
  36. Yup by s.petry · · Score: 1

    I like your choice of wording there, because obsession is a good description. Simply saying "I disagree with that" is now a micro-aggression with racist and/or misogynistic intent.

    That said, I don't believe that "science-as-religion" is new. We seem to run through cycles of this in history. Balance always shifts back and forth.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  37. The Christians are going to love this class. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just remember Evolution is "settled science" and will not be discussed in this class.

    1. Re:The Christians are going to love this class. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      File it along with the predictive power of economics.

  38. it's ignorance of ignorance by Teebin · · Score: 1

    Not ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the death of knowledge. Alfred North Whitehead

  39. The inexact science of medicine by dhaen · · Score: 1

    My doctor positively recommends a medication siting clinical tails and studies. I look at him and think "he really believes that will suit me" - strange for an intelligent person.. While I, working in electronics, know I can be sure that our measurements (when interpreted correctly) can lead to truly accurate conclusions.

    1. Re:The inexact science of medicine by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      After my heart attack, my cardiologist gave me some prescriptions. He told me that he knew some of them would help, and others he didn't have good evidence for but thought it best to prescribe.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:The inexact science of medicine by dhaen · · Score: 1

      Oh great, I have a cardiologist appointment tomorrow;) REALLY!

    3. Re:The inexact science of medicine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's scarier when they themselves start to believe their own cool-aid, and infallibility. Then again, would you go to the doctor who honestly says they have no clear idea of what's wrong with you, and that trying out this medicine probably won't hurt you, much.

  40. Prayer back at you! by s.petry · · Score: 1

    Dear Jesus, I hope you don't teach your kid that the only thing they ever need to know is right and wrong. If you do, that's a damn shame and failure. I had taught my kid what an appeal to emotion was before he was 6, but that does not mean he ran into every instance where someone would use that appeal to sway his opinion. He knew what an appeal to authority was not long after that, but even those simple fallacies are not all that's required for critical thinking.

    Amazingly, there is very little "true/false" or "right/wrong" in the world. Almost everything is an educated opinion, and sometimes that opinion runs counter to what you would think for numerous reasons.

    In simple terms Critical thinking is a mixture of "a great bullshit detector", "universal dissection kit", "crystal ball", and "education". Critical thinking is not one of those, it's all of them working in harmony (or as well as possible together).

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    1. Re:Prayer back at you! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In simple terms Critical thinking is a mixture of "a great bullshit detector", "universal dissection kit", "crystal ball", and "education". Critical thinking is not one of those, it's all of them working in harmony (or as well as possible together).

      In simple terms, critical thinking is the application of one's logic and reason to form a judgement about a topic.

      Why you feel the need to fag it up into some sort of mystical power is beyond me, but please do stop droning on about how important it is if you can't even fucking define it concisely.

  41. The path to knowledge by pwileyii · · Score: 1

    It seems to me like the path to knowledge goes as follows:

    1. Beginner - you know you have a lot to learn and don't know anything about the subject
    2. Amateur - you think you know everything you need to know
    3. Expert - you know what you know, but realize there a many things you don't know

    If someone says the know everything about something, then, in general, they don't. Amateurs tend to over estimate their ability and experts tend to under estimate their ability. Knowing that there are things you don't know (and attempting to fill in the gaps when required) is the main way to become an expert in a field.

  42. God giref... by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    Can we stop with the fucking buzz-words. What you are trying to do is teach C-U-R-I-O-S-I-T-Y not ignorance. You want to inspire people to ask questions. That's not teaching ignorance. It's the fucking opposite of ignorance!

    We're fucked when university professors don't understand that simple fact. Perhaps they should acquaint themselves with one Richard Feynman.

  43. Known, the known-unknowns, and the unknown-unknown by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There are the knowns, the known-unknowns, and the unknown-unknowns.

    As science has shed light on the universe, we have pushed more items into the bucket of the knowns, but a much faster growing bucket is the known-unknowns. That is, the more we learn, the more we learn we don't know.

    For obvious reasons, the size of the bucket unknown-unknowns is unknown.

  44. The first thing to chart out is by laurencetux · · Score: 1

    1 what do we NOT Know about X
    2 what evidence do you have for what we Know about X

    then you can start working on X

    and don't forget to backcheck things like when you are looking for a Black Cat make sure you can handle finding its a Panthera pardus melas and not a domestic cat.

  45. Well, this explains a lot! by karlandtanya · · Score: 1

    Ignorance is perceived as "deviant" rather than normal?
    That is the most absurd concept I've come across in a long time, but it explains a *LOT*.

    Look, knowing what you don't know is pretty fscking precious.
    I love my ignorance. It's how I learn something! I'm at my boss's house fixing his network because I missed something when setting it up.
    Before I left to go here he told me 'Well, you'll learn something when you're done'.
    And I did and it works now!

    Now you tell me that the "norm" (and the Cliff, too apparently) is to deny your own ignorance? How do you learn anything? How else do you try to integrate all the things you know and throw out the stuff that's obviously wrong?
    Apparently critical thought is dead except for those that actually have to get things done!

    Go in a factory where parts need to come off of the line and be correct and saleable--and if you screw something up people can lose fingers, eyes, or lives. Managers can BS people, but debating against reality is pretty ineffective! Trades & Techs--the ones that have stuck around for a while, at least--are pretty damned happy when they know they don't know something--there's not much other way to find where to look in order to get the machines running and running safely!

    I guess Lovecraft was right all along:

    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
    1. Re:Well, this explains a lot! by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Ignorance is perceived as "deviant" rather than normal?

      That is because "ignorance" in the colloquial definition is entirely wilful ignorance despite the technical definition including simply being unaware.

      When we refer to someone as being ignorant, it means they deliberately ignored information and knowledge rather than not possessing it in the first place.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  46. ``Open Problems in Medicine'' by IHTFISP · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In mathematics & computer science, we tend to more charitably call these ``open problems''.

    For example, German mathematician David Hilbert made a quite inspiring list of 23 of them in 1900, many of which are now famously only partially resolved (e.g., Hilbert's 2nd is only partially resolved due to Gödel's second incompleteness theorem) while others have only recently been resolved to great fanfare (e.g., Hilbert's 10th involves Gödel's first incompleteness theorem and relates to Fermat's Last Theorem), and a few others stubbornly defy proof or disproof still to this day (e.g., The Riemann Hypothesis is Hilbert's 8th).

    Beyond Hilbert, the open problem to determine whether P = NP still intrigues, inspires and stymies many computer scientists to this day.

    But perhaps a more fitting term for the field of medicine, though, might be ``remaining mysteries in medicine'' or some such, since they may view unresolved questions in treatment, diagnosis, and underlying mechanisms more as mysteries than as problems per se?

    --
    Error: NSE - No Signature Error
  47. Case for teaching epistemology by swb · · Score: 1

    I heard a podcast of a lecture given by a professor of epistemology and it was truly fascinating. My take away was really how little we know and how many things we THINK we know are built on foundations of things we don't actually know.

    Even simple statements like "the book is on the table" which would seem to be clear-cut statements of fact depend heavily on our understanding of what is a table, a book and what it means to be on something, and how we are able to state that we know what those things mean.

  48. Re:Add Feminism to the list by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sigh. Idiot.

  49. Basic Sciences taught wrong by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    Basic sciences generally tend be taught wrong--it's too much learning by rote exercise, almost no exploratory learning. It turns out real science isn't that hard, and you could have kids doing real experiements pretty much from the time they start learning. The way they teach it makes it much less interesting and fun.

  50. An excellent book that is due for a revised editio by mzellers · · Score: 1

    One of my favorite books address exactly this topic, "The Encyclopedia of Ignorance": http://www.amazon.com/Encyclop...

  51. Bad assumptions by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2

    The data should always be king--not the math--inconsistencies should point the finger at the math and theories, not the other way around.

    Except when the data are "bad". The most recent example of this was the Opera experiment's claim to have observed faster that light neutrinos. That's what their data said...at least until someone found that their GPS cable was loose.

    Experimental science is never that cut and dried. The data may always be right given the experiment performed but, as the Opera case shows, that may not be the experiment which you think you had performed. The result is that there is always a tension when theory and data contradict: is it because the theory is wrong or is it because of an invalid assumption when interpreting the data?

    No, new theories do not have to look mathematically connected to the math of old theories--this is the root problem--assuming that the old theories are *proven* and *correct*.

    Here you have taken a position which contradicts your earlier one. We believe old theories *because* they are consistent with the data we have so far. Hence, by logical extension, any new theory must also be consistent with that same data otherwise we would point to that data and say "see it disagrees with data and so it must be wrong!". Within the precision of existing data any new theory *must* have identical predictions, i.e. an identical mathematical form, to the previous theory under the conditions where the old theory has already been tested and confirmed. It can only vary under situations where the old theory has not yet been tested.

  52. 2nd tier topic by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Introduction to a subject you want to present the basic known facts. When you revisit the topic in a future course then you can rework the pedogogy to explain the history of the ideas, the personalites, and the unknownns. maybe only a grad student would have time to revisit a topic.

  53. There's already a large project teaching ignorance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's called FOX NEWS! It's been making viewers ignorant for 40 or so years

  54. Re:There's already a large project teaching ignora by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LOL...few things kiddo..

    1. Opposing viewpoints doesn't automatically mean ignorance.
    2. It reveals just how much of a kid you are by the fact that you think it's 40 years old.."or so"
    3. It was founded in the latter half of the 1990's making it not even 20 years old. I mean talk about ignorance..meaning lack of knowledge or information. You just PERFECTLY displayed it right there. But that didn't stop you from offering up your half baked 2 cents did it? No sirree...you fit right in....

  55. Yea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Could start with teaching people that most science news has a lot of ignorance in it also. If it is a "study" then there is ignorance in it, a study is just a guess that may not be right unless there is 100% results.

    And stuff like climate change, there is a lot of ignorance in it, but it is always stated as fact by politicians when it all guesses.

    I think kids just need to be taught to question everything that can't be tested.

  56. Most teachers want to be All-knowing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most teachers want to be considered all-knowing and be unquestioned authorities. They beat the doubt out of the students.
    Most students just want to get good grades and will spit out whatever answers the teachers want.
    They know the teachers are wrong often enough, but want the grades and do NOT want to piss of the teacher by questioning the limits of their knowledge.
    Some teachers (usually college teachers in freshman classes), get upset at students taking notes when they go on a rant. The students just ask "will this be on the exam?"
    What is needed is a revamp in the psychology of teachers.
    But then, students might not trust them as much.

  57. Applies to most fields, actually. by Fished · · Score: 1

    I have a Ph.D. in New Testament studies, and from time to time I teach basic Biblical Greek to seminary students. Every time, I rattle off the following spiel:

    "Why study Biblical Greek? It's a lot of work, and if you spend your entire life studying you might, just maybe be as proficient as a dock-side worker in Athens around 100AD. Some of you may think "it's a requirement", but that just leaves us wondering why it's required. Some of you are enthusiasts, and have heard pastors say "but the Greek really says" too many times. You probably think that learning Greek will solve all your exegetical and theological problems. But ... well, I hate to break it to you, but it won't.

    The best reason to study Biblical Greek is very different. The best reason is that it teaches you to open your Bible with fear and trembling. This is precisely because, much of the time, the Greek doesn't really say. Greek, like English, is sometimes vague and often contradictory. Sometimes, we know exactly what is meant by a word or phrase or sentence or passage. More often, there are still significant questions.

    Take "faith in Jesus." Many of you regard that as the center of our faith. But even that might be questioned to someone who really knows Biblical Greek. Does "pistevou tou Christou" mean "faith in Christ" or the "faithfulness of Christ"? The reality is that we don't really know, and it might even mean BOTH.

    So, why study Biblical Greek? To learn that you are ignorant on a great many things, and will remain so. It is, as Paul often says, a mystery."

    (From memory and past my bedtime, so pardon that I didn't dig up my notes.) We then fall into class discussion. I usually lose about 1/4th of the class the first day.

    --
    "He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
    1. Re:Applies to most fields, actually. by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

      I think it's really important to study original texts. A lot gets lost in translation, as anyone with any experience doing so knows. Even between different dialects.

      I've studied, Dutch, English, French, German, Italian, Ancient Greek and Latin in High School and have since gone on to a Master in Physics and Computer Science. I find that especially outside of the language studies, people often have a poor understanding of how hard proper translations are.

      --
      RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
  58. Green Bank does it right by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 1

    The exhibits in the radio observatory visitor center routinely talk about what remains unknown.

  59. Just not teaching science by RogerWilco · · Score: 1

    I've always wondered how many University disciplines seem to be very much teaching rote, not science. It seems to be most prevalent in the areas with a lot of prestige and a very clear career path. Medicine, Law, MBA, that kind of thing.

    If we want Universities to be mainly about creating scientists, several of these have little to no reason to be academic studies.

    --
    RogerWilco the Adventurous Janitor
  60. Don't do that !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please, there is no such thing as an "insanely awesome living creature design".
    Creatures are NOT designed.
    Not a fucking one of them.
    Creatures evolved over time - no one designed them.
    Ditto for chemistry and physics. No one designed "the atom". Nor "the universe".

    If you want designs, you should investigate engineering and art, and THEN you might find some "insanely awesome designs".

    1. Re:Don't do that !! by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      Creatures are NOT designed.

      No offense, but I'm not going to limit to my writing to avoid offending your faith-based beliefs.

  61. Dark Knowledge by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In spite of the levity that this article creates, it raises a serious issue for discussion. Personally I whole heartedly support science in opposition to religious perspectives that attempt to discredit empirically based theory. However, it is important as well for scientists to acknowledge the limits of both our current knowledge base and the philosophical impediments to knowledge. Physicists who talk of their search for a theory of everything are guilty of hubris.
    In my book, The Bridge, I spent a chapter discussing these issues. There I coined the phrase 'dark knowledge.' Physicists talk about dark matter and dark energy. The evidence from observation indicates that both of these exist, yet physicists have not yet provided an explanation of their origin or substance. Similarly I argued that the limits to our current understanding of most everything are evident. Moreover, we cannot even measure what we know with confidence versus what we do not. I called this latter category the body of dark knowledge.
    David Hillstrom

  62. Teaching ignorance? by iq145 · · Score: 1

    You mean, they don't already?

  63. Hit 100% on Ignorance with General Relativity. by lucien86 · · Score: 1

    If you want a scientific subject where general ignorance and hubris reach towards 100% then look to general relativity in the FTL universe.
    You were told that General Relativity is one of the most complete and accurate theories in science? well at speeds slower than light it is.
    At FTL speeds there is more empirical proof for Astrology or Geocentric solar mechanics than there is for general relativity. The sun doesn't orbit the Earth and in the FTL region General Relativity is complete rubbish..

    - The basic geometry of space and time predicts a universe where essentially the whole of reality only exists as an FTL region.
    - At FTL speeds the universe is dominated by an absolute frame creating a stable and long lived 'old' universe. The real 'Aether' is the speed of light itself.
    - In the FTL universe there is an FTL Simultaneity which defines the space time geometry as three Spatial Dimensions with time squeezed into a Zero Dimensional point. Time is simultaneous and synchronous throughout the universe.
    - The classical model black hole with a central singularity sets a minimum speed on gravity which approaches FTL instantaneous.
    - In the most basic convergent model of speed light impinges on the FTL space. (STL-V = C = FTL-V) This allows us to observe the FTL universe directly - in general it is flat predictable and dull.

    - Without an absolute frame general relativity predicts an FTL universe that is completely unstable.. This predicts a young universe with a fake historical light cone.
    - If gravity is restricted to the speed of light then black holes should not exist at all because the gravity well should collapse inwards at the event horizon.
    - Also if gravity was restricted to the speed of light then physical objects like planets should be able to partly block gravity - this is not observed..
    - If general relativity is correct and light does impinge on the FTL then light should not go in straight lines.
    - The final killer is a simple one. Actually proving the FTL region of general relativity was correct would break the theories logic proving it was incorrect..

    K.I.S.S. Keep. It. Simple. Stupid.

    --
    Below the speed of light Special Relativity is one of the most accurate theories in physics - above the speed of light..
  64. The 5 year rule by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It has been said that anything you know for sure today, will probably be disproven in the next 5 years.

  65. Only ignorant people need be told this by EdwardFurlong · · Score: 1

    The more you know the less you know, outside of the box, any concept of history, critical thinking. Question everything, but at the same time you also have to, for the most part, accept what we have. Question whatever you want, just have the proof to back it up. Most people should understand the imperfection of our concept of reality. Are eggs good or bad for you? Are humans causing global warming? If you jump off a bridge will you survive? I am sure there are levels of the "what we think we know and do not know". Has much in the way to basic math or chemistry changed? We still go by 1+1 is 2, protons and electrons, is this a Zoloft commercial?