Windows 10 Grabs 5.21% Market Share, Passing Windows Vista and Windows 8

An anonymous reader writes: The effects of a free upgrade to Windows 10 are starting to trickle in. Available for just over a month, Windows 10 has now captured more than 5 percent market share, according to the latest figures from Net Applications. In just four weeks, Windows 10 has already been installed on over 75 million PCs. Microsoft is aiming to have 1 billion devices running Windows 10 "in two to three years," though that includes not just PCs, but smartphones, consoles, and other devices as well.

Comments

To be expected

[Dunbal]

They're giving it away free and they pushed a little "install me" button on current Win 7 and Win 8 installs. I'm actually surprised it's not higher. This 5% should be seen as a failure not a success.

Re:To be expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Trolls would never consider anything Microsoft does to be a successful.

Re:To be expected

[The Real Dr John]

They are using their installed base of Windows computers as an advertising base now. Free always means the ad-filled version, and the version that tracks you and sells information about your surfing habits and preferences. I really hope that this is not the end of Windows as a basic, functional, user friendly operating system. It was never a perfect OS, but Windows 7 got many things right. Windows 10 got many, many things wrong.

An interesting take on the UI of Windows from Josh Fruhlinger at IT World, with many of today's must have's in an OS came from Windows 95, including aspects of OS X.

Link: http://www.itworld.com/article...

Re:To be expected

[Barlo_Mung_42]

That install me button pissed me off at first but it's actually brilliant. I normally do the updates for systems around my house but when I went to upgrade my wife's laptop she said "Oh, I did that already. Just clicked the button. It was easy."

She's a smart person but upgrading the OS is normally outside her comfort level. They really did a nice job making the process not just easy but approachable.

Re:To be expected

[Grishnakh]

Now they are missing some important things like a package manager for installing software and centrally managing updates

Um, I thought Windows had that ages ago. It's not nearly as cool as the Linux ones (where you have command-line tools you can query the package database with to see what's installed, exactly which files are owned by each package, etc.), but in Control Panel there's an "Uninstall programs" selection where a lot of software is listed and can be uninstalled. Then, Windows Updates keeps that stuff up-to-date, or at least that's my understanding. The problem with MS's system, aside from general clunkiness and lack of advanced features, is that there's no culture in the Windows world of actually using the Windows facilities, so for some stupid reason most 3rd-party vendors implement their own, involving a separate installer, and a background process that continuously checks for updates, so if you have a lot of software on your computer, you end up with dozens of different update-checking programs all running in the background at once. It's a complete mess.

I have no idea what MS could do to change that, without severely limiting the functionality of Windows or outright blacklisting these 3rd-party installers and update-checkers, which would not only piss off the ISVs (and make them cry about anti-trust issues), but would royally piss off the customers who want to run that crapware. Linux doesn't have this problem because there just isn't very much commercial software on Linux; most users get the vast majority of their software straight from their distro's repositories, so it all works together seamlessly. For (usually business) users who do use commercial software on Linux, they end up only using one, maybe two commercial software packages, so they don't notice this as a glaring problem. They just get used to that one program being clunky and not fitting into the rest of the distro.

Re:To be expected

[MyAlternateID]

I really hope that this is not the end of Windows as a basic, functional, user friendly operating system. It was never a perfect OS, but Windows 7 got many things right. Windows 10 got many, many things wrong.

I sure hope it is the end of Windows as "THE" desktop OS in the minds of so many users. Ideally we'd have at least four or five operating systems in common use with roughly similar market shares and a strong emphasis on cross-platform compatibility for application developers so that jumping ship is as easy as possible. This would also provide a disincentive against all of the phoning-home behavior and other unwanted "features" increasingly common with Windows installations. It would also make malware propagation more difficult because the Windows monoculture just makes it too easy.

Re:To be expected

[MyAlternateID]

Microsoft has gotten a lot right. Now they are missing some important things like a package manager for installing software and centrally managing updates, and the privacy stuff in 10 is a bit scary, but to say they never do anything successful is idiotic.

They sell a pretty decent keyboard.

Re:To be expected

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as I see it, the only one that is making any effort in breaking Windows as the go-to OS for the public, is Valve. I don't know if they are putting in enough effort, but getting games to work on Linux either through different executables or just adapter technologies is the only way for the common John or Jane Smith to even think of it as an alternative. If I didn't need Windows to play everything that I have, I'd be willing to look at an alternative desktop OS.

Porn is already multi-platform. Games are next.

Re:To be expected

[DarkOx]

That article is so much bull shit and ignorance.

First the entire section about 3.x being hard to use has not supporting evidence. Anecdotally I can't recall anyone being especially confused by anything specific to the win 3.x ui. I can totally recall people who we not used to navigating nested menus having a terribly frustrating time using the Start menu. Explorer was a lot nicer than winfile I'll give you that but the rest of the claims run so counter to my experience I'd love to see some stats or a real usability study. I think timing had more to do with it personally '95 was about the time new Pentiums were getting affordable, the Internet had real things to do on that normal people wanted, so for so many Win95 was their first experience. Folks that were used to win3.x in the office spent much of their time using as a launch pad for DOS applications and terminal emulators so even for many of them '95 was "Windows". Its all a matter of what you got used to. Finally again speaking subjectively, the '95 ui was not all that good, certainly no where near as good as MacOS at the time or Norton Desktop on Windows 3.x.

The registry. Windows 3.x had a registry! It was not new in Windows 95.

Install wizards really? Plenty of Win 3.x software had easy to use very Wizard like setup programs calling that a new feature is laughable.

TCP/IP -- Again there were drivers for 3.x prior to the resale of Windows 95. You just had to install them I am not even taking about things like Trumpet etc, nope first party Windows NDIS drivers from Microsoft.

In short for the most part Windows 95, was nothing special. Plug and Play was the only real feature, otherwise it was just a fully loaded Win3.11. Which sometime not long after you could install the win32s on too.

Re:To be expected

[Richard_at_work]

Free, yes, but its still being released in tranches to those systems eligible for upgrade, so not everyone that can upgrade has been able to do so thus far.

If everyone had had full access to the "upgrade now" button at launch, you might have a point, but right now its not any indication of a failure at all.

Re:To be expected

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

This 5% should be seen as a failure not a success.

Agreed. A 5% adoption rate is nothing to brag about. Most companies would go out of business with numbers like that.

Re:To be expected

[blind biker]

They are using their installed base of Windows computers as an advertising base now. Free always means the ad-filled version, and the version that tracks you and sells information about your surfing habits and preferences.

The version that sends keyboard logs and microphone captures to Microsoft, you mean? That's ALL Windows 10 versions - none is unaffected.

Re: To be expected

[Urkki]

Make that three, m$ finally pushed me over to kubuntu as a primary OS. I still maintain winblows at work, but I do so from my linux desktop (dual boot, but win 7 is way too slow).

I recently switched to running an Ubuntu variant on my old work laptop (top-of-the line from 2013), and running Windows as VirtualBox guest for stuff like MS Office and Windows development. Works very nice, all you need is enough memory and an SSD and a decent processor.

Re:To be expected

[0123456]

Out in the real world, most people don't play games. They're more likely to be tied to Windows by tax software and the like.

Re:To be expected

[KingMotley]

There was some talk about creating a package manager / Windows Store a decade+ ago, but the idea got squashed pretty quickly for fear of more FTC/EU issues, so we don't have one. They have been taking baby steps into that direction with their Windows Store and universal apps, however, so we will see how that goes. Maybe in 5 years it'll come.

As you know, "But Linux and Macs do the same thing" apparently is no defense, because "they aren't a monopoly wielding power". So you get the shaft and can't have a package manager (or a default browser, or a music player).

Re:To be expected

[rubycodez]

be sure to put in Service Pack 6a or you'll have winsock issues

Re:To be expected

[savuporo]

There is a package manager. https://chocolatey.org/

Re:To be expected

[hairyfeet]

They could fix it quite easily actually, all they would have to do is buy (or build something similar to) filehippo app manager and ask the user when they install a third party program that uses their own if they would like to use their app manager instead.

Re:To be expected

[CrashNBrn]

In what world do you live in? In almost all cases (at least in North America) - the tech, hardware, software, and even other industries almost always follow the "American Political" distribution ---> Two major players + a bunch of bit players. Perhaps its cause is the "form of Capitalism" that the US espouses, wherein Corporations keep consuming other corporations.

Re:To be expected

[bondsbw]

This is one of the reasons Microsoft is building up its APPX package model to be compatible with Win32 apps (Project Centennial) in addition to the new universal apps which already use APPX.

The program will run in an virtualized/isolated environment based on App-V that keeps the program's files and registry keys separate from the rest of the system (even though the app thinks it is writing to real disk and registry locations). Install and uninstall works just like with universal apps, and when you uninstall the APPX package the system will clean up all the program's isolated files and registry edits.

Re:To be expected

[bondsbw]

5% adoption in one month is actually pretty fantastic, for such an immense market that is filled with enterprise users (whose IT departments need to train and prepare for rollout, and who do not get the upgrade for free).

For perspective, it took Apple around 3 years to sell a total of 75 million iPhones, and it was deemed a resounding success much earlier than that.

Re:To be expected

[phantomfive]

F# is pretty nice, a modern functional first language, and it works pretty well.

Are there people who actually use F#??

Re:To be expected

[phantomfive]

Ideally we'd have at least four or five operating systems in common use with roughly similar market shares and a strong emphasis on cross-platform compatibility for application developers so that jumping ship is as easy as possible.

That is absolutely my ideal as well.

Re:To be expected

[The Real Dr John]

Actually you can be tied to Windows by software. I have several very expensive programs, and I don't have any idea what I would do to replace those in a different OS without spending lots of money and even more time relearning different software than the programs I have used for years. Here is a partial list. Image Pro Plus by Media Cybernetics, Sigmaplot 12, MS Office Suite (2010), Adobe Creative Suite CS5 (I use photoshop, illustrator, premier pro, after effects, audition, flash and media encoder), Reference Manager with a large 20+ year database of over 10K citations and ChemBio Office 3D among others. Si while it is possible to start all over in another OS environment, but it would be very expensive in both money and time.

Re:To be expected

[FranTaylor]

When most people talk about Windows they are talking about WIN32. Stuff from before that is not relevant.

Re:To be expected

[FranTaylor]

5% adoption in one month is actually pretty fantastic, for such an immense market that is filled with enterprise users (whose IT departments need to train and prepare for rollout, and who do not get the upgrade for free).

For perspective, it took Apple around 3 years to sell a total of 75 million iPhones, and it was deemed a resounding success much earlier than that.

5% means that the QA department has a few systems set up, tests are failing all over, and actual deployment is a long ways off

Re:To be expected

[phantomfive]

Yes, that is not my ideal.
TBH I think you messed up using Reference Manager. Never put lots of effort into storing your data in a proprietary database, that's a setup for being screwed.

Re:To be expected

[Luckyo]

So you just drew a comparison between a device that costs above 600EUR to a free piece of software that was semi-automatically pushed on the current massive user base of windows 7/8?

How much alcohol did you have to ingest for that analogy to make any kind of sense?

Re:To be expected

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

For businesses, sure. For private individuals, gaming is one of the main blockers for migration to other systems today, and it seems reasonable to assume that this one affects many, many more people than tax software. After all, which of (a) the PC gaming industry and (b) the PC personal taxation software industry makes so much money that even Hollywood is jealous?

Re:To be expected

[FranTaylor]

Welcome to hotel microsoft, you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

Re:To be expected

[FranTaylor]

Are there people who actually use F#??

Yes, the phrase "F#?? this Microsoft S#??" is pretty common

Re:To be expected

[phantomfive]

lol wow, S#, a new language I'd never heard of.
That's why I read slashdot, I learn new things all the time :)

Re:To be expected

[hawkinspeter]

I'm not sure that the Windows "Uninstall programs" thing really counts as a proper package manager. I don't think you can use it to install software (except for a few Microsoft examples) and I don't think you can use it to update/upgrade software. I doubt it handles dependencies between software either.

Unfortunately, Windows has trained users to expect to install software from all manner of different internet locations. I think that's the biggest flaw of Windows.

Re:To be expected

[operagost]

Actually, you can query what is installed with Powershell. I don't know if you can enumerate the associated files.

Re:To be expected

[joeblog]

Trolls would never consider anything Microsoft does to be a successful.

Nonsense! I thought Windows 9 was fantastic and gave it rave reviews everywhere.

Re:To be expected

[bondsbw]

Folks here compared the uptake of Windows 8 (an OS which was not free to manufacturers or to people who upgraded) to Android (an OS that is free). I'm not allowed to make a similar comparison?

Re:To be expected

[The Real Dr John]

Yeah, by today's standards I messed up. But I started that database when Reference Manager came out, in the early 1990s. There were not a lot of choices back then for citation software. Plus, for some time it was really the best citation software out there. Thompson Reuters bought them out to stop competition with Endnote. So I also have Endnote X7 which has a relatively simple conversion capability that takes about 10 minutes if I need to convert the whole 10K citation library, which has over 4000 associated PDF files to the original publications. I am positive that Endnote will be supported for a long time to come, so I am not worried.

Re:To be expected

[guestapoo]

I believe that Alice's smart, but in this case she's not.
Like everyone to be fool enough to click on "Install me" ads randomly on Internet without knowing what ever it does with their systems.

Surely, it's from Microsoft, people tend to trust them as they are using their products, you can't get virus from Microsoft. But install new OS without doing some research, by clicking "Install me" is likely eat everything branded "Eat me" without reading its ingredient.

PS: I like the comparison "Install me" of OP.

Re:To be expected

[phantomfive]

That is true, back then, there were not a lot of good choices available.

Re:To be expected

[0123456]

Yet I know way more people who run tax software on their PCs than games.

Re:To be expected

[Grishnakh]

The problem is Microsoft decided to trust the application to remove itself.

I don't think it's any different on Linux; if you run some crappy proprietary program's install script as root, it can do anything it wants. It's just a really different culture between the two OSes; Linux users generally don't use proprietary software at all, they get most of it from their blessed repos, and anything else is usually some other open-source program straight from the project page. Whereas on Windows proprietary software frequently all they use, or worse, they get some shit from places like download.com which could have anything in it.

Also, Android and iOS have package managers and people aren't crying about that.

Again, the culture is totally different. Android and iOS don't generally allow you to get software from outside the official app store. (iOS absolutely doesn't allow it, on Android it's possible but takes conscious effort, and usually isn't done much; aside from some mfgr-provided crapware that they distribute through their own app store, people just get everything from the Google Play store.) People aren't crying about it because they're used to it. This is the way Android and iOS have *always* been, whereas Windows has always had a culture of buying some boxed software from an ISV and installing it from disc (and later, downloading an .exe or .msi file and installing that). So Microsoft suddenly trying to push everyone into an app store for regular Windows software isn't going over well because it's a sea-change from what they're used to. They're not used to that freedom with phones, so they don't complain about it there (plus, they don't try to do all the stuff with phones that they do with PCs, so the expectations are lower).

Re:To be expected

[Grishnakh]

Unfortunately, Windows has trained users to expect to install software from all manner of different internet locations. I think that's the biggest flaw of Windows.

I wouldn't say they "trained" them to do that (after all, they're trying to push their new Windows App Store and that's going over like a lead balloon), that's simply the way things evolved. When Windows first became popular, people didn't even use the internet with it. What we're seeing now is simply the culture that has evolved, and that culture is what's causing them these problems. I have no idea what they could do to change it.

Re:To be expected

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The world is too big for personal anecdotes to be reliable in this context. None of us have a personal social circle that is a good representation of the general population in all things. That's why I was looking at industry-wide data: following the money is a neutral indicator.

Re: To be expected

[chooks]

I do the same (Ubuntu host, Win 7 VM). The only issue I have is that the win7 pro VM I have takes a very long time to boot up -- not sure if there is a way to speed it up. I only allocate 8Gb of RAM but it seems like that should be enough...

I'll have to try the playonlinux for office. I have been trying to get Evolution to work with the job's Exchange server without much success and maybe that would give me an alternative that would take me one step closer to ditching even the Windows VM I have...

Re:To be expected

[yuhong]

Windows itself is not ad filled, and the telemetry data has nothing to do with ads.

Re:To be expected

[thegarbz]

As you know, "But Linux and Macs do the same thing" apparently is no defense, because "they aren't a monopoly wielding power". So you get the shaft and can't have a package manager (or a default browser, or a music player).

The existence of a package manager is not an issue. The way they run the manager and how they interact with people who wish to use it is the difference between proving a useful service and falling afoul of anti-trust laws. Even if Linux were a fully on monopoly their package managers wouldn't be an issue as they are fully open, don't have a high cost, and everyone is free to submit packages in the appropriate format and create repositories for others to use.

Re:To be expected

[Christopher_G_Lewis]

My understanding is that MS is working to integrate powershell based package manager tools like https://chocolatey.org/ with Powershell 5.0.

Re:To be expected

[Grishnakh]

The problem with this idea is: how do you get all the ISVs to cooperate? It won't happen; they'd have to come up with some way for the OS to prevent 3rd-party software from installing itself the normal way, and force it to go through the package manager somehow. Or just create some kind of VM for every single application to keep them all separate and unable to change anything on the system, but that seems like it'll add a lot of overhead.

Re:To be expected

[mister_playboy]

Commercial tax software is a US-only thing. Gaming is a worldwide market.

Re:To be expected

[mister_playboy]

Windows 10 shows ads in both the start menu tiles and the search menu results by default.

I have seen at least one "system notification" advertising Office 365.

Welcome to 2015.

Re:To be expected

[arglebargle_xiv]

Microsoft is aiming to have 1 billion devices running Windows 10 "in two to three years," though that includes not just PCs, but smartphones, ...

So that'd be 999,999,999,997 Windows PCs and three Windows smartphones?

Re:To be expected

[gl4ss]

Imagine a situation where some of your sw doesn't run on win10.

the pushing of the upgrade is nothing but ridculous and they know it. every time after opening desktop (from sleep or power on) it pops up.

it says limited time but the time is 1 year.

it does not have a "don't show again checkbox". it's not meant as a free choice but as something normal users think they do not have a choice about.

Re: To be expected

[Urkki]

Don't worry, systemd will soon integrate with keylogctl and send all your porn browsing to Pothead.

It's open source and trivial to patch. And a distro which shipped something like that unpatched would be dead in a few days. Also it would result in immediate fork. Just observe what happened to MySQL and especially OpenOffice.

Re:To be expected

[cavreader]

From the users perspective they do not run an OS they run applications. The users could care less about all the trivial minutia and never ending arguments promoting one OS over another.

Re:To be expected

[hawkinspeter]

To change it, they could introduce a full featured package manager (e.g. like Linux uses) which would make it easier for people to install from official repositories than to go elsewhere. It's a shame that they're only starting to do this now that they've seen how much money Apple makes from running their App Store.

Re: To be expected

[KingMotley]

There is actually a ton of package managers. Chocolatey, nanite, appupdater, steam, origin client, some antivirus even include app updaters (I think avast, panda). But not a system default one. Although Nuget is a package manager (and the backbone for Chocolatey), it's not installed by default, and it's not designed for applications.

There was work on something called one-get that was a package manager aggregator as well but I don't think that made it into win 10 (have to double check).

Re:To be expected

[squiggleslash]

Yeah that link was posted to Slashdot a few days ago. It's mostly inaccurate concerning Mac OS X - the Dock, for example, was a NEXTSTEP (capitals deliberate) feature from the mid-eighties, for instance. The nearest vaguely Windows 95ish thing you can say about the OS X dock vs older OpenStep docks was that it moved to the bottom of the screen. And the comments about buttons to close/minimize etc originating in Windows 95 are completely ludicrous. It's like he never used a GUI before Windows 95. (I think Mac OS X did copy Alt-Tab though, so there's that, if he'd bothered to mention it...)

Windows 95 was a significant step forward for PC users, but it didn't really do much that wasn't out there on other platforms already. The Start button was mostly a new concept, but Amigans, GEM users, and Mac users didn't really see anything we hadn't seen before.

Re:To be expected

[eionmac]

QUOTEThey're more likely to be tied to Windows by tax software and the like.UNQUOTE
In UK, HMRC (Her Britannic Majesty's Revenue and Customs = Tax man) issues tax returns and Small Business tax return FREEWARE stuff in both Linux , Windows and Mac system formats. Free software for personal tax returns browser based and OS independent. Commecilal firms the limit for free HMRC software is number of employees at 10 persons (enough for about 30% of all UK firms). Commercial accountants can work in any OS as major UK bookkeeping software (basis of company accounts and thus transfer to tax returns) is available in Linux and other OS forms.
link
https://www.gov.uk/basic-paye-...

Re:To be expected

[Grishnakh]

To change it, they could introduce a full featured package manager (e.g. like Linux uses) which would make it easier for people to install from official repositories than to go elsewhere

That won't work. They would have to convince all the ISVs to switch to that, and they're not doing it. They're already trying to push something like this now, and the ISVs aren't interested because they don't want to pay MS for the privilege of being part of their app store, they like the current model just fine.

Re:To be expected

[TemporalBeing]

For businesses, sure. For private individuals, gaming is one of the main blockers for migration to other systems today, and it seems reasonable to assume that this one affects many, many more people than tax software. After all, which of (a) the PC gaming industry and (b) the PC personal taxation software industry makes so much money that even Hollywood is jealous?

Well, gaming might be for males between 5 and 45; but far more people use tax software (TurboTax, TaxAct) to do their taxes twice a year than use a computer for gaming, and that doesn't include businesses.

Re: To be expected

[benjymouse]

But not a system default one.

As of Windows 10 (and soon previous versions with Windows Management Framework 5.0) there *is* a default one: OneGet - now just called "package manager". It is controlled through a PowerShell module. It is actually a package manager umbrella, as it can be used for a number of different package managers which can provide "providers" for PM and integrate that way.

Open a PowerShell prompt and type the following to reveal the commands of the PackageManager module

        gcm -mod PackageManagement

(or type gcm -m pack[tab] if you want to save keystrokes - powershell will autocomplete the module name)

To register Chocolatey as a package source (so that you can find packages through Find-Package) type this:

        register-packagesource -Name chocolatey -Provider PSModule -Location http://chocolatey.org/api/v2/

Re:To be expected

[TemporalBeing]

The registry. Windows 3.x had a registry! It was not new in Windows 95.

Well, there was a not very widely distributed version of Windows 3.x that had a registry, I've only heard it by the name "Win32s" and know it had a pre-Win95 early version of the Win32 API found in Win95; but it (the registry) was not by any means guaranteed to be available until Win95.

Re:To be expected

[hawkinspeter]

Yep, they'd need to make it cheap/free and easy to get software included, but that's probably not what the Microsoft shareholders want.

If they did make it easy for software to be included and updated in their app store then you'd have the more reputable software available from the store (with automatic updates etc) and users would end up preferring to get software via that route.

Re:To be expected

[Grishnakh]

I agree, I just don't see it happening. Getting the ISVs on board with that (especially shitty but large and entrenched companies like Adobe), and MS actually doing it for free instead of taking a big cut like Apple does, just isn't realistic I think. MS sees all the money Apple is making with their App Store and greedily wants to do the same, but like a typical cargo cult can't understand that they're just not in a position to replicate what Apple did.

Re: To be expected

[Meski]

Some games (EQ2, Valve Anti-Cheat) treat being run in a VM as an active cheat and will autoban or insta-ban the user.

What can you do in a VM that would be cheating? (yes, I realise you just said they *consider* it cheating, but humour me here)

Re: To be expected

[KingMotley]

Yeah, that's the one I referred to. It's actually a Package Manager Aggregator that uses NuGet by default (and has some APIs so it can be extended, like with Chocolatey). Unfortunately Chocolatey still doesn't have a lot of packages, but maybe we will see it turn into something. If Microsoft puts a nice GUI around it, and implements their own full package manager (or extends NuGet to handle full applications).

Re:To be expected

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Your bias is showing.

In many parts of the world, the majority of people don't need to use tax software or "do their taxes". For example, here in the UK many basic taxes are deducted at source and then reported and paid by the employer/merchant/bank, so many people never have to file a return at all. Those who do typically use an on-line system provided by the tax authority or work with a professional accountant who can then file on their behalf. None of these people needs to run the kind of tax software you mentioned on their own computer.

Also, your stereotypes about gamers are way out of date. For example, the ESA's 2014 report suggests that interest in entertainment software is roughly equal between the sexes.

Re: To be expected

[thegarbz]

Of course they made it easy and free.

Why do you say of course? History is often a better indicator of the future than common sense, and previous versions of windows were an exercise in frustration to install.

Re: To be expected

[Grishnakh]

How's that useful when the dozens of commercial apps you install don't use it or work with it? That's nice for the open-source stuff that does work with it, but be realistic: most Windows users use little to no open-source stuff, and a bunch of proprietary crapware from McAfee, Adobe, their printer vendor or other hardware makers, etc.

Re:To be expected

[TemporalBeing]

Your bias is showing.

In many parts of the world, the majority of people don't need to use tax software or "do their taxes". For example, here in the UK many basic taxes are deducted at source and then reported and paid by the employer/merchant/bank, so many people never have to file a return at all. Those who do typically use an on-line system provided by the tax authority or work with a professional accountant who can then file on their behalf. None of these people needs to run the kind of tax software you mentioned on their own computer.

In the US, you are not required to file taxes period unless you owe money. The government is more than happy to keep any extra that may have been submitted via employers/etc on your behalf. Also, you can typically pick up the forms at a local post office.

So no, there is no requirement to use a computer to do your taxes in the US. It's just that there is a very large majority that is a lot larger than the U.S gaming market that do use software or on-line services to do their taxes. I wouldn't be surprised if it was similar elsewhere too.

Now it doesn't help that Intuit and others mail out copies of their software anticipating people will use it; it comes with some free access (typically Federal taxes) and then some paid access (typically States support). Nor does it help that the software is basically free even if you do pay for it as you can add the cost of paying someone to your taxes as a deduction.

Also, your stereotypes about gamers are way out of date. For example, the ESA's 2014 report suggests that interest in entertainment software is roughly equal between the sexes.

That doesn't change the reality that those using software to do their taxes are still a larger group than those playing games on their computers. However, you'll probably also need to look at the difference in there between (a) computer vs console games, and (b) whether there is a significant difference in the genders for those who will build specialized systems for their computer gaming. My guess is that the results of both will show a skew in computer gaming towards the males.

Re:To be expected

[Luckyo]

And folks made many other insane comparisons. None of them however were in this thread.

Perhaps you would do well to just join the other crazies instead of dumping this insanity into actually sane threads?

Long Live XP

[Anonymous Coward]

Some of us still use XP for various reasons.

Yes, I know. This doesn't really contribute to the discussion. Mod me down to -1.

Re: Long Live XP

[BarbaraHudson]

Games that won't run on a 64-bit platform and the newest version totally sucks but the old version runs on new hardware like a bat out of hell, software that still does the original task but without the bloat of later releases, or the requirement to always be connected, etc. 10 is a Trojan horse. Beware of geeks bearing gifts.

Re: Long Live XP

[Nemyst]

As the lead dev for a prominent Freelancer mod, I can tell you it isn't. Our mod actually runs better on Windows 7, 8 and 10 than it does on XP these days because XP's lack of a proper WDDM makes it a complete mess to work with.

Re: Long Live XP

[mister_playboy]

Command & Conquer 3. It complains about requiring Windows 98 or better to run.

Running the exe in compatibility mode gives the same error.

Oddly, C&C3: Kane's Wrath works fine.

Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[Pulzar]

Windows 8 is at 14%, but split between 8 and 8.1.

I know Window 8 adoption is bad, but it's not *that* bad.

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[SydShamino]

Following the "every other version of windows is bad" thing, I count Windows 8.1 as the most recent "good", replacing the "bad" Windows 8. That makes Windows 10 another bad version, which so far sounds accurate given the snooping problems.

Of course I used XP until support ended, still use 7, and never used Vista, 8, or 8.1, so my experience is limited.

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[H0p313ss]

Of course I used XP until support ended, still use 7, and never used Vista, 8, or 8.1, so my experience is limited.

I try not to focus on any one operating system, my test server is Linux, my laptop is a mac and my gaming desktop is Windows.

My message is: If you're staying with 7 then you're missing out. 10 is going to be big.

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[ripvlan]

Aren't those who have Win8 stuck on it? I read that the first Windows tablets (WinRT?) were stuck and had no upgrade path.

Of course - that would sting me. Assuming those devices are useful - I'd probably keep using it until it broke. Then buy something NON-Microsoft that had a history of long term support.

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[FranTaylor]

If you're staying with 7 then you're missing out. 10 is going to be big.

what exactly are folks missing out on other than the confusing start menu?

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[Luckyo]

If you're sticking to seven, you're missing out on massive privacy invasion, driver installation problems and myriad of other issues. But look on the bright side, it's awesome because it doesn't come with a dedicated anal probe.

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[jez9999]

Perhaps a shitty monochrome interface (seen the icons in Win10? They're just 2-color line art abominations.)

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[mister_playboy]

http://tech.slashdot.org/story...

MS isn't letting you get away that easily.

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[squiggleslash]

I was very excited by 10 until I installed it on my tablet and found that it was something other than an updated Windows. I definitely think the GP should hold off using it if they're happy with Windows 7, which was a high quality operating system.

Issues:

1. It's bug ridden.
2. Can't comment on performance vs Windows 7, but on my tablet it's awful compared to Windows 8.1. UI latency is terrible.
3. Still insists on tying use of apps to Microsoft accounts.
4. Sizable amount of default UI seems to be constantly pushing you to buy or download things.

10 is "big" and has some nice features, but I really wouldn't push anyone to upgrade unless they've test driven it first and like it.

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[H0p313ss]

10 is "big" and has some nice features, but I really wouldn't push anyone to upgrade unless they've test driven it first and like it.

Agreed, testing would be ideal. (But unrealistic)

Re:Misleading title - didn't pass Windows 8

[Luckyo]

Different kind of "pushing". In one case, you're looking at uncontrollable, undeniable stuff cooked into the OS.

On other, you have updates that you can either not install, or easily uninstall if you mistakenly installed them.

I like the new Windows

[fustakrakich]

It always knows where I am, in case I get lost. It calls home, *I've fallen! And I can't get up!* Now, if they could just make it turn off a car's turn signal.

Only because it is free.

[Lumpy]

It would not have even a 5th of the uptake if it was not 100% free right now. Hell even illegitimate windows 7 installs become legitimate with a win10 upgrade applied to them.

Re:Only because it is free.

[Barlo_Mung_42]

That's not the whole story. Lots of OSs are free but don't have 5% market share. It helps that Win10 is a really good OS and is getting solid reviews.

Re:Only because it is free.

[mschwanke97402]

That's not the whole story. Lots of OSs are free but don't have 5% market share. It helps that Win10 is a really good OS and is getting solid reviews.

The OP was right:

Er... that's just NOT GOOD. I understand it's early days but for a FREE (in fact, in-your-fucking-face-you-will-have-this-whether-you-like-it-or-not) upgrade, that's just worrying."

Microsoft has been doing everything short of force upgrading Windows 10 without permission on their Windows 7/8 install base. I never gave them permission but they took advantage of "Automatic Updates" to install the Windows 10 Reservation ADWARE on my computer. I never made a reservation but again, Microsoft abused my trust and downloaded the Windows 10 upgrade bits to my computer anyway. How much longer until they just go ahead and trigger the update and force me to extricate myself from the predicament?

Microsoft have full screen adverts on their web properties exhorting users top get their free upgrade. I've even seen it in Windows Update as a pre-selected Optional Update!

Considering the lengths to which they are going, I'd have expected them to be reporting far higher numbers by now.

I wonder when they will report numbers on how many people have reverted back to 7, 8 or 8.1?

Re:Only because it is free.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen mixed reviews at best. My own experience is that it does some things pretty well... I'm able to play some games at phenomenal frame rates.

  However, It seems to have issues with balancing some load-intensive tasks. I was using Picard to scan and tag a couple hundred mp3's, while listening to music, and opened a game up... only to have the game freeze, no "shift-ctrl-esc" for task manager, no mouse motion, nothing. Music kept playing until the buffer ran out, though.

Anyone else see something similar?

Re:Only because it is free.

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Nope. I could afford to buy a Mac if I wanted one. My wife is free to get a Mac if she wants one. I could also use Linux if I wanted. I go back and try it again every few years to see how it's coming along. I stick with Windows because I like it better than the other options. Lots and lots (most) of people are just like me.

The little upgrade thing in the system tray is hardly in your face. It's no more noticeable than the Action Center flag yet I often see it with active messages and people just don't seem to care. I've talked with many users that were eager to try Win10 and like what they see.

Re:Only because it is free.

[Barlo_Mung_42]

I doubt we'll ever see numbers reported for people reverting but the way they're reporting numbers now is very different from the past. In the past we'd only get how many licenses were sold into the channel. These are confirmed installs which for an upgrade is huge. People (normals) almost never upgrade their OS. They almost always wait until they get a new system that just comes with the new OS. This is huge.

Re:Only because it is free.

[Lumpy]

I know several that have reverted. Driver issues and general buggyness. Like booting to a black screen very common bug that Win 10 has.

Microsoft answer was, dont shut the computer down, just let it sleep.

windows 10 is an early beta release.

Re:Only because it is free.

[iampiti]

Please someone mod parent up.
It may be an acceptable OS for the masses (it's not for me). But weren't it for the "upgrade now for free!!!!" button they've pushed to all Win 7 & 8 machines they wouldn't have a quarter of the installs they have.

Re:Only because it is free.

[Barlo_Mung_42]

If you're looking for actual usage numbers Steam says 17% of its users are already running Win10. There will always be bugs and when your user base is > billion people there are bound to be a few upgrade issues but it's getting really hard to deny that Win10 is a big hit.

Re:Only because it is free.

[thegarbz]

Hell even illegitimate windows 7 installs become legitimate with a win10 upgrade applied to them

No they don't. Just because you faked the activation the first time doesn't make the licence key magically work after an upgrade. Microsoft made that clear that the initial announcement that windows is free even to pirates was false.

Do they count rollbacks?

[Anonymous Coward]

I ran it for about 2 weeks on a laptop at home used for general browsing, but watching the logs on my firewall were crazy. I couldn't manage to track down all the different *-edge.net domains or other CDN endpoints they were using to relentlessly connect. You basically have to switch to whitelisting. My hosts block file picked up dozens of entries, but after realizing it'd be a never ending cat & mouse game I reverted back to Win7...Unless they stop this crap in a soon to be released patch we'll go back to being a Windows free home when win7 gets bothersome.

Re:Do they count rollbacks?

[BardBollocks]

Instead of labeling himself an asshat? ;)

Re:Do they count rollbacks?

[negRo_slim]

I ran it for about 2 weeks on a laptop at home used for general browsing, but watching the logs on my firewall were crazy. I couldn't manage to track down all the different *-edge.net domains or other CDN endpoints they were using to relentlessly connect. You basically have to switch to whitelisting. My hosts block file picked up dozens of entries, but after realizing it'd be a never ending cat & mouse game I reverted back to Win7...Unless they stop this crap in a soon to be released patch we'll go back to being a Windows free home when win7 gets bothersome.

Just use this: https://github.com/10se1ucgo/D... Along with some easily googlable additions to your HOSTS file. I've manged to get it down to just one site client.wns.windows.com (IIRC) it will try randomly the entire time but HOSTS seems to deal with it as well as it can be dealt with.

Re:Do they count rollbacks?

[yuhong]

The funny thing is that BITS is not supposed to do that, that is why it is called BITS.

Re:Do they count rollbacks?

[elistan]

I'm curious if you looked at Windows Update -> Advanced options -> Choose how updates are delivered. I ask because when enabled there are a couple options to download updates either from other machines on your local network, or any machine on the Internet. It sounds like Microsoft is leveraging some peer-to-peer networking for content delivery, and I wonder if that's what you're seeing. It would explain why the destinations kept changing, as other PCs came and went... One implication, if so, is you could possibly have disabled that and gotten updates directly from Microsoft only.

Just bought my first Windows 10 box

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

I just bought my first Windows 10 box - a laptop for my mom. It's the first Windows 8+ cut that allowed me to use the "Start" menu like it should to be used: the place where you find your apps. After disabling all the "no privacy" stuff and some kind of bastard child from Clippy and Siri ("Contana" was it?) it was actually pretty solid. I could see this replacing Windows 8 outright...but I'm still not going to upgrade the Windows 8 tablet I have. (Maybe my wife's laptop.)

Re:Just bought my first Windows 10 box

[waspleg]

Unless you're running Enterprise, it's not disabled and still spying on literally everything, including sending sound from the mic to Microsoft. I was going to list some links but I'm at work and don't have time. A little searching will show you the truth.

The US TLAs would like to thank you for your endorsement of global privacy death.

Re:Just bought my first Windows 10 box

[TheDarkMaster]

As the waspleg said, the settings to disable telemetry are a placebo, they did not really work unless you are using the Enterprise edition.

Re:Just bought my first Windows 10 box

[WillAffleckUW]

True. Even when you think you turn off "privacy stealing", it still sends your info to the cloud and that is reported automatically to MSFT. It's in the cloud terms, so you can't find it.

Even Enterprise is leaky. You have to run in private cloud (internal net storage) mode to avoid privacy leakage.

Re:Just bought my first Windows 10 box

[green is the enemy]

I'm looking for a reliable, verified way to remove all this telemetry. Can anyone confirm if this project delivers what it promises? It supposedly works on windows versions 7-10.

Re:Just bought my first Windows 10 box

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Unless you're running Enterprise, it's not disabled and still spying on literally everything, including sending sound from the mic to Microsoft. I was going to list some links but I'm at work and don't have time. A little searching will show you the truth.

Perhaps you should do a little searching yourself. Perpetuating this sort of ill-informed FUD really isn't helping.

There are legitimate privacy concerns about Windows 10. There are also reasons for some of the behaviour, and settings that do turn some of the behaviour off. What we need to further this debate is facts, not hyperbole.

at least 5.21% is accurate

[atropa]

what will they think up next?

What I read:

[ledow]

"Windows 2015 Grabs 5.21% Market Share, Passing Windows 2006 and Windows 2012 - majority of people still on Windows 2009 or maybe even Windows 2001".

Er... that's just NOT GOOD. I understand it's early days but for a FREE (in fact, in-your-fucking-face-you-will-have-this-whether-you-like-it-or-not) upgrade, that's just worrying. And nowadays volume licensing offer software assurance, and all kinds of things that make it as cheap to upgrade as to stay where you were.

And, still, it only just beats a 9 and 3 year old operating system and is DWARVED by a 6 year old operating system? It really suggests - as most of us know - that this isn't a forward step at all.

Yeah, early days, but testing etc. versions have been available for over a year. So far, our finance, banking, database and even interactive whiteboard software suppliers have notified us that we're just not supported on the new OS. We haven't even TRIED it properly, and people are already telling us we can't upgrade anyway (why they left it this late to announce that, that's another question entirely).

I work for schools and we're on SA, so we can get Windows 10 for the same price no matter what. I can't find a convincing reason to test it, going purely on what's in our email inbox, when developers have been able to test for a year now. I booted it up in a VM and tested Classic Shell still worked, that was about it.

I've had three members of staff ask me about Windows 10. The first, it broke their software. The second it was a new machine but our software wouldn't install because of the above incompatibilities (I chanced it to shut them up, but it just wouldn't go anyway). The third, it lost all their data (possible user-error but we'll never know now).

The only thing I've done about Windows 10 is block all the updates via WSUS that try to get our users to install it by popups and notifications masquerading as security updates.

Re:What I read:

[WillAffleckUW]

Exactly. The only people "adopting" Win10 are the ones who already get it free, or who are forced to accept it due to bundled contracts.

I'll wait for Windows 11.

Re:What I read:

[H0p313ss]

Exactly. The only people "adopting" Win10 are the ones who already get it free, or who are forced to accept it due to bundled contracts.

I'll wait for Windows 11.

Or the technologists who tested it and decided it was a step forward and would ride the bleeding edge rather than putting their heads in the sand.

Re:What I read:

[WillAffleckUW]

Heads in the sand?

I work with massive blade servers that hook up to 100 Gbps Internet3.

Perhaps you need to realize there are many different ways of doing things. Apple isn't that great either. Or Google.

Re:What I read:

[ledow]

Have deployed Windows 8. Twice, actually, at two different workplaces. The "sign in with a Microsoft account"? Not a big deal. Ordinary imaging and group-policy processes block that before you even see an option for it. Really not anything to care about in the grand scheme of a rollout of hundreds of desktops. Additionally - if you want your people to use Office 365, etc. then you already have that to deal with anyway, so you just use Federated AD and it's - again - not an issue.

8 is perfectly business-ready. 10 isn't far behind. But, as you hint at, neither is significantly better or more worthwhile that 7 with the same stuff. 10 is boring. It's not advanced enough. It does nothing new, just hides shit that you still need. And does so in nasty ways, in some cases. But 7 and 8 had those problems to some extent, we just know how to deal with them already.

The best of 10 and 8 taken together just isn't enough to warrant a 7.1, let alone an 8.0, 8.1 or 10.0.

Re:What I read:

[Barlo_Mung_42]

It trounces the latest OSX and the latest Linux. If their biggest problem is that they're competing with themselves there are worse problems to have.

Re:What I read:

[FlyHelicopters]

W10 breaks parental controls. I now cannot automatically limit how long my kids play or use the computer anymore unless I get all my kids M$ accounts. Sorry, but that's none of M$'s business. Go to hell you stinkin' *$@#$!!.

Also, I don't know what's going on with the Internet safety stuff under W10. I'm very upset with W10.

Be upset all you like, but you're swimming against the flow of water...

Let it go, MS does a good job with kids accounts, they are blocked from many things and you have control over them.

For example, Cortana doesn't work for kids, a nice touch...

Considering its free

[Stan92057]

Considering its free plus free advertising, too wouldn't that be really poor numbers? I'm not getting it free or paid and no i not switching to Linux any distro or apple.

Wait your turn.

[westlake]

They're giving it away free and they pushed a little "install me" button on current Win 7 and Win 8 installs. I'm actually surprised it's not higher. This 5% should be seen as a failure not a success.

The roll-out was always meant to move forward in manageable stages.

It was clear from the beginning that distribution to low-end tablets and other systems with very limited resources would be delayed.

Re:Wait your turn.

[squiggleslash]

It took a couple of weeks before my low end tablet received the notification, my regular gaming rig PC only got notifications last week. I don't think they're delaying it for machines with limited resources.

So what

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I don't give a damn if it grabbed 50% of whatever bullshit metric they claim to be measuring. Win 7 works for me and I'll probably use it until I'm literally forced to upgrade (i.e. lack of drivers, etc).

And then I'll switch to Linux.

Re:So what

[Barlo_Mung_42]

It is rather telling that you don't just switch to Linux now. It is free too after all...

Re:So what

[perryizgr8]

You're the demographic that caused IE6. Latching on to one version and sticking your head deep up the ass, while shouting lalalalala... Seriously, just fucking upgrade to a decent modern OS. Move to a new Linux distro, or buy a new Mac, or upgrade to Windows 10. At this point, Win7 is just old and senile. And you using it indicates you haven't evaluated the new OSes and this is just your laziness talking.

Re:So what

[wvmarle]

It ain't broke, don't fix it. I've worked with Win7 for a bit, and have to admit it works, and allows you to get what you want to do, done.

Just got myself a brand new laptop, got Win 10 on it (after an upgrade - dunno what it was before - instantly got frustrated by not being able to find my apps for lack of a Start menu or anything like it). It feels terribly broken. No software included other than a browser. Mail client only does MS-based mail, nothing else, and forces full screen with no way to window it. No productivity software. Just nothing. Installed Claws Mail (happy to find out it has a Windows port), so at least that works. Installed Chrome to have a decent browser. Some McAfee thing has started to bug me already with a 1/3-screen sized popup, along with a dozen other meaningless messages like "we installed an update!" and "we added features!".

I need it this afternoon, so have to do more testing. For example, it makes me wonder if there's even an image viewer included that can do slide shows.

Not going to risk installing Linux now - even though I've a near-100% success rate, can't risk it. I'll probably have to hunt down and install an image viewer (and hope it's not ad-ridden or has malware included, missing a central repository).

In a few days I'm going to install Mint on it - use it on my desktop, love it, it does its job while letting me do mine. I'll have to keep Windows (though I'd rather go for Win7, just missing installation media so that's not a realistic option) on a trimmed down partition just in case. I've needed it once before in the past five years: to set up my WiFi printer. The 64GB SSD should comfortably hold both, and allow enough storage for the little bits that I need to store on the device.

Re:So what

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

It ain't broke, don't fix it. I've worked with Win7 for a bit, and have to admit it works, and allows you to get what you want to do, done.

Exactly.

What I've got (Win 7) is working and working well for what I need to do on a daily basis. Win 7 is actually a fairly decent desktop environment (again, for me, your mileage may vary). Honestly, I'd run it for the next decade if I could but my guess is that drivers for any new gear will be unavailable for Win 7 and that will force me to switch.

To be frank, I'm not eager to switch to Linux. I use it on all my servers to run my websites (about 120 sites) but I've got almost no experience with Linux on the desktop as an everyday OS.

I know there's going to be a learning curve and I'm not looking forward to it, but I'll go that route to avoid Windows 10. That's how much I dislike Windows 10. (And for what it's worth, Linux has been a rock-solid performer on all of my servers for the last 10 years.)

Re: So what

[perryizgr8]

Yup, exactly what I thought. Obstinate illogical idiot who refuses to be flexible and get with the times. Carry on sir. I guess criticism just causes you to retardify even harder.

Re:So how bad it is really?

[PincushionMan]

That is bad advice, that will not preserve his OEM preinstall key, and he won't be registered with the Windows 10 servers.

1. Back up all of your important data. This is the most important step!
2. Make a Windows 10 USB stick.
3. Upgrade to Windows 10 from the USB stick. You must run the upgrade from within the OEM license Windows 7, 8 or 8.1 while connected to the Internet. If it asks for a CD-KEY, you've got an Enterprise or VL (Volume Licensed) version of Windows, and don't qualify for the free upgrade.
4. Waste about 45 minutes while Windows 10 installs.
5. Account Setup: Don't make a Microsoft account or convert a local account to a MS account, it's unnecessary. Skip or Later is the correct option.
6. Customize Setup: Do this part Turn everything off. You have to scroll on one screen to get every slider
7. Log in, verify on the System control panel that you are activated. MS now has a copy of your computer's fingerprint on record at Redmond.

Optional, but highly recommended for stability and cruft removal:

1. Boot from the Windows 10 USB you just created. Select the OS version you just installed (95% of the time it is 64-bit)
2. Wipe your Disk clean, and install Windows 10 again (You did back up earlier, didn't you?)
3. Do steps 4 - 7 above, 'skip' or 'do it later' for any requests for a CD KEY (you are registered with MS from your upgrade)

Note that the Hardware key is primarily tied to your motherboard + video + network card; if you replace it, you'll be on the hook for Windows 10 if you're out of the 1 year period. Lifetime of the hardware seems to mean lifetime of the motherboard, or three to five hardware swapouts, whichever comes first.

That said, I've triggered the software licensing module when I upgraded the RAM and Video twice each in the same computer (and for a while used the onboard video, which probably counts as a swap as well), due to a bad RAM and a defective Video chip. In any case, my Windows 8.1 Media Center became useless because the Media Center key they'd given out was a time limited key. I worked around it by running my backup disc Windows 7 onto a blank hard drive and updating that to Windows 10 on the Internet, then updating the Windows 8.1 to Windows 10. I had to run the setupprep.exe from within the arch directory of the USB stick to manually force the setup to continue. When it saw Win 10, it activated immediately. Works great now, better that it has in a while.

Re:Edge more popular then Opera.

[0123456]

Wow. Opera is still around?

So Edge is more popular than... something I thought had died years ago.

Re:Computer repair businesses can confirm it too

[Pinky's Brain]

Reading a lot of horror stories about laptops losing wifi.

Re:So how bad it is really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, it's so much easier than Linux!

Two versions people actively avoided

[WillAffleckUW]

Seriously, unless you had a laptop, there is no sane person that liked either Win 8 or Win Vista.

"Lowered expectations"

Show me the final cash non-renewal sale dollars at retail after returns.

It's an epic fail. You can see it in the unit flows.

Adding in "free" upgrades does not mean sales.

Re:Two versions people actively avoided

[Carrot007]

Vista post SP1 was pretty much fine and much like win 7. The only reason 7 was released was to combat the tarnished name of vista.

I actually bought vista. Why? Because XP 64 bit was abandoned, and 64 bit os was needed because 4gb (often 2.5gb or even less) was not enough.

The scary thing it that there was a win 7 32 bit and beyond! People are idiots stop giving them a choice!

Re:So how bad it is really?

[WillAffleckUW]

Well, actually, for a laptop, Win 10 is not that bad. It sucks on the desktop and on the server, but it's not a bad laptop OS.

Re:So how bad it is really?

[rubycodez]

Except for the intrusive spyware features enabled by default, and who knows if published procedures for eliminating that really disable all of it? closed source == who knows what the heck it's doing?

Eh!

[Codeyman]

Doesn't this just mean something like "3% of Windows users upgraded to the latest OS".. why is this a news article exactly?

Now, if as a whole the Windows market share dropped below mac+linux or if it rose above them or through some luck had 100% of the share, then yes it would be news. News need to be edge triggered not level triggered.

By what measure, success?

[King_TJ]

Despite the cries that people like Dunbal are just trolling, I think the parent comment is right on the mark. It would be difficult NOT to image Windows 10 not achieving at LEAST a 5% market-share when ALL of the installed copies of Windows 7 and 8 out there harass users to upgrade to 10 for free.

Not only that, but anyone looking a little deeper into the situation will discover:

- You only have 1 year to take advantage of this free Windows 10 offer, so putting it off means risking forgetting about it until after the deadline

- Microsoft is doing cloud-based storage of your hardware's unique ID paired with the product key for Win 10 now, so it's wise to install Windows 10 on a given computer even if you plan on rolling it right back to a previous OS. It's that initial install that "brands" your PC in the cloud as authorized for Windows 10 from there on out. (Any time in the future - you'll be able to do a clean Win 10 install on that hardware without needing to enter a license key at all. You can just skip through prompts asking for one, and it'll activate automatically when it's done installing.)

It would actually be interesting to know how many people are actually *using* Windows 10 vs. just Microsoft reporting an install count based on the initial installation process. I already had one laptop that repeatedly failed the Win 10 upgrade process, although it got far enough so it was recorded as a Windows 10 machine. (Basically, whenever you'd sign into it, you'd get a Windows 10 desktop that flashed on the screen briefly, but then went to a solid black screen with a movable mouse pointer and nothing else. Oddly, I could hit ALT-CTRL-DEL and a task manager window would pop up on the black background and work normally. But could never get a usable desktop with start menu.)

Re:By what measure, success?

[squiggleslash]

It would be difficult NOT to image Windows 10 not achieving at LEAST a 5% market-share when ALL of the installed copies of Windows 7 and 8 out there harass users to upgrade to 10 for free.

But... and it's a big but... not all the installed copies of Windows 7 and 8 harass users to upgrade to 10 for free. Or even offer the option.

To be harassed, you:

1. Need to have a PC that's allowed to upgrade automatically. That eliminates virtually all corporate versions of Windows, which is disproportionately high amongst Windows users.

2. Need to have a PC where the user clicked on the little Windows notification icon, and went through the steps needed to "reserve" a copy of Windows 10. That's not everyone. That's probably not even the majority of the Windows users not covered by (1) above given most users have no idea what that little icon is. For them (people like my wife) the only Windows 10ism they'll ever see is something in a notification bar they usually never look at.

3. Need to have a PC that's "ready" to install. My tablet notified me after two weeks. A week or so later, my main gaming PC notified me that it was ready. They're clearly still pushing it out.

(1) and (3) are dealbreakers beyond the user's control. You could possibly argue that (2) is where the user has made some choices that relate to their interest in Windows 10.

5%, in that context, isn't bad. It's not great either, but it's certainly respectable.

Review of Windows 10..

[goombah99]

Here's my review of windows 10.

I'm a long term Mac and Linux (and VMS and CPM!) user. I have always detested window. I have had to use it over the years and have formed a very very vlow opinion of it.
That said this is a very positive review of Windows 10.
But first let me start off with the truly awful back story. I bought a 2 year old HP quad i7 on which I planned to install a Linux, settling on Linux mint after trying out the latest distros for intuitive ease of use. But it came with Windows 8 on it, having had a factory-reset done. SO a virgin perfect copy of windows 8. Oh my god, is this a bad operating system. I had heard people complaining but I really had no idea it was so awful. Crazy tiles that feed bombard you with rubbish you didn't want. Or if you switch to desktop mode all sorts of non-intuitive pathways to reach various configuration files. And just nutty desgin decisions. I figured why not install windows 10. I had read several reviews saying that it's a great OS.
it took me 7 hours of constant attention just to reach the point where I could request a copy of windows 10. You see they won't just give you a direct install like Linux or Mac, instead they make you update your machine up to the very latest pre-10 state before a little Icon appears to let you install 10. It took 167 updates to reach a state where I could then run the tool microsoft supplies to help you reach win 10 worthiness. I told me I had to install win 8.1. So I did that, then another 45 patches after that the little tool told me to do. Then the little tool suddenly got weird on my. it told me to install some file named KBXXXXXX.exe where XXX is sume number. but it didn't tell me how. I found it on the web and installed it. I re-ran the tool. Now the tool was being inscrutable. It told me the file had nor been run. SO I tried running the file again. But the executable said it had been run. went back to the tool. same story. No microsoft help or troubleshooting seemed to exist for this glithch. But what it turned out to be needed was to reboot and run update again. It turns out the executable somehow provides windows a list of further pathces it needs. But in 8.1 update only runs periodically auotmatically, not when needed. So I wasn't going to get anywhere. By forcing an update it worked. Then after that update I needed a few more patches. then Wham the windows 10 icon appears on my tool bar. I click it and fill out a request for windows 10. Nothing happens for a week. I begin to wonder. SO I click the button again and it says it will now install windows 10.

The installation was completely painless. It may have rebooted a few times but it did it mostly without persteing me with questions. Once it ran the first launch it asked my how far I wanted to pull my pants down for microsofts marketing division in a series of question. Each time I said no to something like "can we create a UUID advertising identifier to sell your ass to the world?" I gave up some service. For example, unless you share your contacts with Microsoft you don't get no Cortana.

Now to be fair, I didn't mind that too much. I though microsoft was being bold and forthright asking me these things, clearly explaining the consequences, and giving me the opt-out choices in a fairly fine grained way that was not confusing. I kudos to microsoft for not being google. (I hear the next ChromeOS has an anal probe.)

Now what about the actual user experience. Well I have to say it's lovely. they got rid of the dancing squirrel tiles and put back the start button. The tiles now are shrunk and toned down to they pop up alongside the start menu. The remaining tiles are mostly just the useful ones like things you last did. there's still some you didn't ask for of course but really it's well done to the point of being useful.

And that's the crux of the new 10. It basically just gets out of your way. By not being windows 8, it's huge step forward. It is very mac like in the attention to

Re:Review of Windows 10..

[goombah99]

I guess I should have returned to my starting point. As good as windows 10 seems, the upgrade process is a major botch. Do I really want to get involved with products from a company that can't get that right. They should make all the managers at microsoft try to update a 2 year old unpatched windows 8 computer. How could this get overlooked!!! My machine was not slow nor was my interenet connection. And other than 1 hour I lost when their upgrade tool got squurley it took 7 hours to just make my mainstream machine wind 10 ready. It kept haveing to reboot itself. It's just really really crappy design. The windows dressing is nice now. I fear what still lurks underneath. Neither windows 10 nor Norton utility stopped me from getting ruined by malware. And it's not like I just fell off the turnip truck. it's the APple and Linux give you more ways to inspect the unexploded suspect ordinance before you detonate it, and they are easier to find and trackdown every file that got changed. Not to mention easier unprivledged user installs and sandboxes.

But my kids think it's easier than learning linux so it's a winner! (they hated windows 8).

Re:The next step

[Kavonte]

They're not going to charge for the next Windows upgrade.

This whole scheme is about everyone rejecting Windows 8. Microsoft thought "what if we could just force them to upgrade?" So they decided to make Windows 10 the final version, with free upgrades afterwards. So they polish it up so that it's acceptable to most people, get them to upgrade, and in a few years they'll revert back to the bullshit of Windows 8, except this time it won't be an optional upgrade, it'll just be another OS update which you can't disable because they removed the ability to block updates from Windows 10. You'll show up to work one day and find your start menu replaced with a bunch of colorful squares on a black screen, important menus hidden away in hot corners and other places you like to put your mouse cursor when you want to get it out of the way, and virtually every utility replaced with an always-fullscreen "app" with only 20% of the functionality of the original utility. ...and you'll use it this time, because you won't have a choice.

So what *positive* things does Win10 offer?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

10 is going to be big.

Why? Aside from the widely publicised problems, what actual positive things does 10 offer that previous versions didn't?

Cortana, like all the other personal assistant gadgets of recent years, seems very clever at first sight. However, I've seen little evidence so far suggesting that real users want this sort of tool or find these tools work well for them.

Edge seems to be unfinished and to have negligible adoption rates so far. This might change in time, but for now it seems to lack both the stability and reliability of IE and the flexibility and new features of Chrome or Firefox. It's not clear yet what, if anything, it will offer beyond these existing browsers to encourage users to switch.

DX12 is a gaming platform that so far has little support from either hardware or games. Again, this might change in time, but historically new versions of DX that were locked to new versions of Windows haven't been the driver for adoption that Microsoft might have hoped and in practice games have continued to support older versions of DirectX as well.

There are a few UI changes in Windows 10, but the positive comments about several of them seem closer to "this isn't as bad as Win 8" than "hey, this is actually useful". Other UI changes, such as splitting up configuration settings into lots of different places, are getting quite negative comments so far. So again, overall I don't see the UI being an advantage over other contemporary operating systems that might encourage people to switch.

So really, what is the killer feature of Windows 10 that would make a normal but well-informed user decide to install it on, say, an existing Windows 7 machine?

Mainstream media reviews are baffling

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I do find the positive reviews of Windows 10 in a lot of popular media slightly confusing. The pattern always seems much the same:

It's free. It's better than Windows 8. It has some new features, but you probably won't use them. (Little if any recognition of any privacy, security, reliability or stability concerns.) BEST OPERATION SYSTEM EVERZ 11/10 UPGRADE NOW LOOKS UNICORNS AND RAINBOWS!!!!11!eleven!

I can understand mainstream media not being particularly technically literate, but how does anyone qualified to write a professional review plug things like being free and not as bad as the immediate predecessor that most people never bought as solid reasons to upgrade immediately? How do they not do one Google search and at least acknowledge that there have been some serious problems in the first few weeks even if they then argue that they're teething troubles and they believe Microsoft will fix them?

I've been reassured that in the last week or two, I have at least also seen a few more balanced reviews acknowledging the problems and suggesting that it might be worth waiting to see how things go rather than installing right now. But even there, a disturbing number of professional IT reporters seem to be casually dismissing things like security or privacy risks that they don't seem to fully understand themselves or conflating important security updates with general patching and moving around of the software without questioning whether Microsoft's approach here is really in users' interests.

Re:Mainstream media reviews are baffling

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Tech journalism isn't really any better than regular journalism but when even people like David Pogue are grudgingly admitting that it's pretty good, that says something. Win8 clearly got a lot of things wrong. Win10 not only fixes them put moves things forward. Two of my systems are hybrid laptop / tablet things. The way Win10 easily moves back and forth between those two worlds is really great.

Re:Mainstream media reviews are baffling

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

It seems to me that Windows 10 moves some things forward if you have the right kinds of device to take advantage of it, but suffers from trying to treat widely differing kinds of device used for widely differing purposes as if they should all work the same way.

Incidentally, articles like this one by David Pogue are exactly the kind of thing I was mocking before, and I stand by that mockery. He summed up his own position quite neatly with this:

If you’re a PC veteran, then you’ll recognize Windows 10: It’s pretty much Windows 7, with Cortana, nicer typography, and a few new features.

Those new features seem to be at best hit-or-miss, though arguments for why he thinks they are good are rather few. He glosses over the privacy, security, stability and reliability concerns, despite these alone being reason enough for significant numbers of people not to upgrade. And he literally wrote that the best thing about it is that it's free. (So is sticking with the Windows 7 already running on my boxes, by the way.)

Re:Mainstream media reviews are baffling

[Barlo_Mung_42]

Oh, I agree that Pogue is terrible. I've seen him use the terms memory and storage interchangeably too often to have much respect for the technical details of his work but he's been a fairly consistent MS basher / Apple fanboy for years now so to just see that he doesn't hate Win10 is a huge mile stone.

Re:So how bad it is really?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

closed source == who knows what the heck it's doing?

Wireshark does, for a start.

The other question we should be asking in the context of Windows 10 is what it could do in the future, now that it has a mandatory update mechanism, given the various provisions as currently written in the EULA/privacy policy/etc.

Mixed Bag

[MrKrillls]

Win 10 is I am sure much improved upon 8/8.1, but I find I just don't really care. I trust they learned a lot from the 8 debacle. I have 8.1 on one machine, and a couple of weeks ago hardware issues seem to have borked the Win OS. The Linux installs multi-booting on the same machine happen to be OK. It's been weeks, and I just realized I have not missed the Windows for one moment. Nada. Win7 was the last Windows I used that I cared for, until a complex (to me) set of events rendered some critical files unreachable to me. Windows kept saying I didn't have permission to use those files. No matter that I had all permissions. I tried everything I could. Finally I realized I could use a linux live disc to move and rescue my files. First time I had used Linux productively. After Windows pulled the "you don't have permission" trick on me, I decided to try out Linux for real. There is one Win program I really miss - MS Access - OK stop laughing at me - for my simple purposes it worked darn near miraculously and allowed me to create a really usable record of every aspect of my business. One user, me, local, simple. It allowed me the chance to gradually modify and improve my database as I learned rudimentary VB. I don't really know anything about programming other than a little VBA. Bless Access. But to get away from Windows I'm willing to walk away from Access. Other than that, I miss nothing. I'm starting to figure out the rudiments of LibreOffice Base. I don't know enough about it to know if it can or will replace Access for me. If not I'll scale back to a crappy spreadsheet workaround. I'm utterly happy with Linux Mint.

Re:Edge more popular then Opera.

[guestapoo]

Well, Opera is declining in their traditional market, when they "betrayed" them, but are gaining market from Asia countries like Indonesia, India, etc, where people who happy with using Chrome, never like/heard of Presto Opera before, mainly think Facebook is the Internet, love the fancy GUI, they love new ChrOpera.

IQ=10

[Peter (Professor) Fo]

What riches, silk, gold, rubies.. fluff, zinc, gravel await the instant 'upgrader'?

Re:Runs on older hardware just fine

[perryizgr8]

And on my 2010 Core i3 laptop with 2GB RAM, it's mostly OK, but the Cortana stuff is a bit slow at times.

Re:So how bad it is really?

[rubycodez]

Even when all privacy settings enable, Windows Still Does "it"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sci...

Re:So how bad it is really?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The original Ars Technica article there actually found very little troubling behaviour once the privacy settings were turned on. But yes, we should question the odd remaining instances they did find, particularly the upload with unidentified content.