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White House Petition To Let Foreign STEM Grads Work Longer In US Hits 100K Signatures
theodp writes: Computerworld reports that a petition urging the White House to act urgently on a court ruling that could force thousands of recent foreign STEM graduates working in the U.S. on OPT STEM extensions to leave the States early next year reached 100,000 signatures Tuesday, the threshold for an official government response. It could present a political conundrum of sorts for the Obama administration. Because the administration didn't act to protect U.S. workers at Southern California Edison and Disney, explained an attorney in the case, "now that foreign workers will be losing their jobs, how would it look if Obama went into overdrive to protect their jobs?" By the way, using a map to gauge whether support for the petition comes from all over the country (as the White House suggests), indicates that support for the OPT STEM Extension petition is largely concentrated in tech hotspots and universities, including off-the-beaten-path college towns that host large international student populations.
Since it achieves goals for their $upporters.
100,000 HR employees petition government to help flood the workforce with desperate skilled labor willing to work for minimal survival wages.
So, how many of the signers are US Citizens?
If you look at the responses on Whitehouse.gov then you villl see that the responses are all pretty lame and meaningless. This is when they even choose to respond. Many times they simply say they wont bother responding. The petitions simply get a response that you would expect when calling a call center in India for customer service. Nothing ever changes or happens from a petition.
Doctors do Massage in Longview WA now, who knew?
Who the hell would select a map view that pushes the coasts to the edges, makes the mostly empty-of-data-points great plains the biggest US section, and gives us a full frontal close-up of zero-data-point Mexico?
First, this isn't the same as the H-1B issue. This would actually be a better solution if we were facing a shortage of skilled workers, because more trained entry level sorts would directly address that. The problem is, the tech moguls pushing for H-1Bs don't really care about that, they just want cheaper workers. The fact that most H-1Bs are used not to bring in highly paid experts in their field, but instead to bring in contract workers for IT sweatshops, should tell you something. That, and the fact that H-1Bs are largely stuck in their one job, are part of why this solution will likely not have any tech moguls or the like pushing for it.
I do find it disingenuous that the lawyer quoted conflates the two though. Entry level types who happen to be foreign graduates of a US university aren't going to be competing for any jobs that aren't already at risk of being given to any US-born graduates (which is a problem in Tech, but is a rather different one). That said, the Obama administration (and politicians in general) ought to be doing a lot more to crack down on the H-1B fuckery, just in general, nevermind in relation to a broader immigration overhaul.
It could present a political conundrum of sorts for the Obama administration.
How naive... they will respond as they always do with almost all these petitions - with a generic form letter statement that will provide vague reassurances that they are "looking into the issue", give no concrete plan for addressing the core demands while mostly evading the question. Anybody who thinks these petitions are worth the paper they are signed on and that the White House actually pays attention to them is deluded.
I would guess that large portion (most?) of those signing the petition are, in fact, the same STEM students. No one checks your citizenship (or identity) when signing those things. I expect this to be mostly self-serving.
Note: I have no opinion on the actual issue (I am a non-native-born US citizen fwiw)
What you think the party that says there is no voter fraud, and routinely opposes photo ID for voters would use non citizens in this way ?
...what he thinks of this. Better have his people brief him on what STEM stands for beforehand though. Don't want to be accused of asking "gotcha" questions...
If they reduce the number of H-1s, and keep the people here who were educated here, it seems like a reasonable solution.
There's a risk that universities would open to merely subvert the immigration process, so safeguards against that should be taken. Also, why limit it to just STEM? If we train a great philosopher, America will be improved if that philosopher chooses to stay here.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Oh yes, it is so un-American to accept the world's tired, poor, huddled masses. It is so un-American to take advantage of the world's brain drain by taking above average workers from foreign countries. [/sarcasm]
What does appear to be un-American is an understanding of history or the critical thinking skills necessary to realize how good of a deal this is for the US economy. So many of the world's college educated workers want to leave their home economy and improve ours instead.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Keep thinking your jobs are lost due to H1Bs, or due to Indians being hired overseas when the company opens a branch there. You are just blind, your jobs are lost at a much higher level because American management nowadays hires foreign contractors, but this is invisible to you. Thus, you can't complain about what you can't see.
Contractors are the easiest way to outsource, because a cheaper price is offered over a proven track record. It's as simple as that.
I run a company overseas that gets contract work from American companies, which recently fired 1000 American employees because they would rather outsource the job to many overseas companies like mine (which are not even in India). Simple Facts:
-American workers are simply too expensive compared with the rest of the world.
-American education is simply too expensive compared with the rest of the world
-America used to lead in science in technology, but the rest of the world catches up quickly
And you know what is worse? Most other developed countries (Canada, Germany, France, Australia, New Zealand, etc) have a totally opposite immigration policy, which encourages skilled workers to migrate and help their industries grow in exchange for a better quality of life. This in turn takes away more American jobs because of competition, as those countries are less expensive and/or subsidized.
The best you can do is to understand and accept this in the first place. You country still has an excellent quality of life, and your jobs being lost to other qualified people is not something you can avoid. Change your immigration policy so skilled workers go to the US instead, and give them more rights so employers can't abuse the H1B restrictions to make them work like cheap cattle, so at least you are not at a cost disadvantage in the playing field. You have to wake up before it's too late!
that some of the less educated of the 94 million adults not working can get jobs.
Knowing that he will be the least popular x president as far as speaking contracts, that leaves him a number of low paying gigs to speak at NAACP dinners.
Obama is taking money from anywhere he can get it for the next year and a half.
I have no faith in these petitions after that travesty.
As long as skilled American workers can't find work. Send 'em all home.
... but you know what? As an American worker I think we should be doing what every other country in the world does... citizen's first. You have your sheep skin - now head back home.
I was not in favor of NAFTA - which decimated US manufacturing.
I was not in favor of shipping all of our electronics manufacturing overseas.
I'm not in favor of US based companies (Adobe, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, etc. ad nausium) sending their engineering and development work overseas (no wonder their software has become so lousy)
I'm not in favor of the Trans-Pacific agreement.
Going along with that.. I'm not in favor of narrow-minded unions (K-12 teachers and 'tenure', requiring an IBEW brother to plug a PC into a power strip at a convention, rubber rooms, and other hyper-wasteful labor tactics). And our stupid politicians that didn't have the sense to look up and understand what tenure was originally meant for, agreeing to pension increases over pay increases, etc.
We have the management/labor environment we have (with both sides playing tragedy of the commons) because only 35% of us go and actually vote.
Saw a great bumper sticker... If the 99% would go vote the 1% wouldn't matter.
FredInIT
Collectively, immigrants -both legal and illegal- send tens of billions of dollars back to their respective countries every year, removing that currency from US markets. How again is that a "good deal" for the US economy? Besides, according to Pew research, North American nations are already more welcoming than European ones: http://www.pewglobal.org/2007/...
Ditto, you know what else is ? Dice Holdings is now headed up by a un-american.
I'd be happy to support visa for these folks, but NOT H-1Bs or similar. If we need them, bring them in and give them full rights. If we don't need them that badly, we don't really need them.
Coming here and working at below-market rates *does* technically "improve our economy*, as the investors get to make a bit more money off of them, but not in a positive way (driving down skilled middle-class labor wages).
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
What if these foreign STEM workers are somehow keeping women out of STEM? I forget which direction the progressive stack falls.
Zuckerberg - is that you?
Paid jobs my ass. They want to keep their slave labor.
I am not an American, but got a PhD in EECS from US. I was on OPT for a few months, but left to take a job in Switzerland. Life in US is so bad, even if you extend the OPT to 3 years, it won't solve your serious problems such as lack of decent life, no social security, health insurance, etc, etc. It is just cars, and motorways and gas stations, and McDonalds everywhere. You've got the best nature, but that's about all you have. I couldn't wait to finish, and get back. I concede that you generate the best science, but sure as shit you live awfully. So after I got the education, US wasn't interesting anymore.
Anyone who has ever worked with Indian grad students knows that we are not getting anything worthwhile by letting them in.
There is no voter fraud and the GOP has yet to provide any evidence of even a single campaign being put in jeopardy based on it. There's literally more people hit by lightning than committing voter fraud.
The US has most of the best colleges in the world. They come for the education. They're not supposed to stay afterwards. IIRC, one of the requirements of those visas is that you go home afterwards.
Why don't we reduce the number of foreign students attending our Universities and make room for, you know, Americans? I believe that a good part of the reason that so many foreign students are admitted is the huge premium on tuition that the school collects. Foreign students pay WAY more in tuition than American students do so the schools have a vested interest in having as many foreign students as possible.
Classroom seats, like so many other things in life, is a zero sum game. For every foreign student admitted there is one American student that misses the cut. Why not take care of American students first and then, if there are any seats left, admit foreign students? Would this not address the supposed shortage of skilled STEM workers that business is always whining about?
Honestly, I can't believe some of these guys even made it through grad degrees. These tech schools that have like 90% Asian grad students should be investigated by whoever does accrediting because the guys coming out of some of these programs are fucking retarded. I've met smarter high school geeks than some of these Indian dudes with their $60k masters. Most of these wealthy Indians who come here for grad school are so used to being served by essentially slaves ($40 a month live-in servants) that they have the work ethic of a god damn garden slug.
The 99% generation whines about debt as if we should care that they made some very, very, very poor decisions. They want to roll out the guillotine; really stick it to the rich; they want theirs.
Of course, they are completely ignorant that they are the rich.
It's cool when they're defecating on cop cars, yeah, but give the actual poor of the world a fighting chance and they lose their shit. Because it isn't about the rich. It's about getting all you can carry with the least amount of effort involved.
Which explains why so many Slashbitches are actually terrified of losing their jerbs to an H1B. Because they don't know their asses from an array, and aren't worth $20k a year, let alone $120k.
There is no voter fraud and the GOP has yet to provide any evidence of even a single campaign being put in jeopardy based on it. There's literally more people hit by lightning than committing voter fraud.
Let me google that for you
https://www.google.com/search?...
You're not even brave enough to attach your own username with such inane invective!
To ... uh ... spend a metric ton of money to get a degree that I could've gotten for free at home?
I don't know.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
BINGO.
These STEM workers are NOT the issue. The issue is that they are hired on H1B which is virtual slavery. [HL]1B is what must be killed off, even for low-end workers
Windbourne.
Yup, go to the USA, learn skills from US experts, but no contributing back to the US economy for you! You have to go back to wherever you came from and contribute to their economy with the skills that you've acquired. We've just instituted this kind of stupidity in the UK too.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Never hire Brahmen (top Indian caste). They think they are too good to work.
Lower Indian castes are smart, good workers.
Every Brahmen at IIT had a lower caste 'helper' that did the work for him/her. Find the helper and hire them.
Brahmen will identify themselves in interviews. All you have to do is talk about how 'upper crusty' your family is (doesn't matter if there is any truth to it). They will immediately have to top you.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Seriously, the real problem is not that immigrants are here. The REAL problem is that [HL]1Bs are used to tie the worker to the company and most importantly, to a much lower wage. So, what is needed, is to remove that, and allow ppl to come here on green card instead. In addition, it should be ONLY for the top ppl, not just any STEM. By going with the top, that means that they have top grades and are paid more than the average. Anything else, is just a waste.
Windbourne.
The very first headline from your link:
https://www.washingtonpost.com...
I don't think your citation shows what you thought it was going to show.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Bullshit. http://www.ktiv.com/story/1377...
In other news, that petition that serves the interests of 700 workers and their 89 bosses was signed by 789 people. Go figure.
Just? Foreign students have been coming to the UK for decades. Universities would struggle without the money from foreign students.
Collectively, immigrants -both legal and illegal- send tens of billions of dollars back to their respective countries every year, removing that currency from US markets. How again is that a "good deal" for the US economy?
Because while they may send $120 billion in remittance per year, they make trillions of dollars working in our economy. They go to US restaurants, US supermarkets, buy US real estate, and start US companies. 40% of Fortune 500 companies were founded by 1st or 2nd generation immigrants, so I'm fine with them sending a fraction of 1% of our GNP overseas each year.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Wow, calling out someone for some severely racist comments is considered Flamebait around here? I didn't think Slashdot had gotten that bad.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
That's funny
This is my first link
http://dailysignal.com/2015/07...
But hey, I can understand people that think protecting the integrity of the voting system is less important than deciding who can buy cigarettes. /sarcasm
It would EASILY get vastly more signatures than however many signatures this initiative gets. If they want to see who screams louder, I say bring it on. Allow the voices of the opposition to be heard.
Collectively, immigrants -both legal and illegal- send tens of billions of dollars back to their respective countries every year, removing that currency from US markets. How again is that a "good deal" for the US economy?
Because while they may send $120 billion in remittance per year, they make trillions of dollars working in our economy. They go to US restaurants, US supermarkets, buy US real estate, and start US companies. 40% of Fortune 500 companies were founded by 1st or 2nd generation immigrants, so I'm fine with them sending a fraction of 1% of our GNP overseas each year.
Unlike those who are born here who don't shop or eat at restaurants. What you're saying is that if you live here you buy things here. Great. Let's start making them citizens instead of temporary workers. Note, a temporary worker is not an immigrant. A temporary worker has no interest in improving their host country.
It's sad that we don't consider developing these skills in our own population. The US is a huge country and probably contains the same number of potential STEM workers that we're "taking" from the rest of the world. It just so happens that we don't really want to invest in Americans. Universities, as a whole, tend to like foreign students who pay full tuition. From kindergarten on, we consider most US students to be a burden unless you choose your parents wisely and are able to go to a private school.
It's been my experience that these STEM'd grads are smart, and decent folks. But their presence here is based on a lie. And those that stand by them support that lie.
The US is a huge country and probably contains the same number of potential STEM workers that we're "taking" from the rest of the world.
The US has about 5% of the world's population. It is laughable to think we have the same number of potential STEM workers as the rest of the world, especially given that our primary schools rate so poorly compared to other nations.
It just so happens that we don't really want to invest in Americans.
The US spends more per student than any other developed country in the world. (source). Private school tuition does not affect these averages much, so even our public schools are better funded than the rest of the world. We absolutely do invest in Americans, but with only 5% of the population and 22% of the world's GDP, it is impossible to keep up our current advantage without continuing the brain drain we have been doing since the world wars.
I do agree we need massive changes to our school system, but there is even more resistance from the educational industry than there is against immigration.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
These geniuses,(their words, not mine), are so scary intelligent; what have you learned from them so far?
Currency is a poor reflection of value added. Police are entirely a cost by that metric, as they do not create any products.
obama dont give a shit.. midterms were last year and he himself ain't running again.... a politician on the last legs of his term/reign is called a 'lame duck'... has it ever been more fitting of a term?
You are understand the false idea that H1-bs are above average.
I found them to be no better than anyone else and many of them got through school by cheating.
Never hire Brahmen (top Indian caste). They think they are too good to work.
Lower Indian castes are smart, good workers.
Every Brahmen at IIT had a lower caste 'helper' that did the work for him/her. Find the helper and hire them.
Brahmen will identify themselves in interviews. All you have to do is talk about how 'upper crusty' your family is (doesn't matter if there is any truth to it). They will immediately have to top you.
This prejudice drivel gets modded "Informative?" Un-fucking-believable Slashdot. One of my best engineers is a Brahmen. Just like every other group of humans on the planet, some people are assholes. Some aren't. Fuck sake. I don't care how many asshole Brahmen's you've worked with, this is plain old confirmation bias and prejudice at work. People don't choose the fucking "caste" they are born into.
Some privacy policy Slashdot.
Oh yes, it is so un-American to accept the world's tired, poor, huddled masses.
I don't see that quote anywhere in the Constitution. Or are you talking about the poem that wasn't added to the Statue of Liberty until 1903?
That the "Daily Signal" is your first link says more about you than it does about voter fraud.
You are welcome on my lawn.
We spend more, and get less per dollar, typical American idiocy of top down management (see Common Core) while maintaining the industrial education system in a modern information age.
I work in education, and I see tons of wasted money being spent on people who will never recover that lost value("Special Education") while neglecting kids who actually want to succeed (exceptional). We cater to whiny parents of school brats while ignoring the good kids and parents who are there trying to dodge all the crappy raindrops in the system that is rewarding failure in the name of "fairness".
In one example, I know of a teacher, legally required to spend one hour a day dedicated to each one of six kids with "Special needs" (one on one time). The rest of the class can suck it, as there are only 5.5 hours of instruction time. What does the teacher do? Not teach other kids? or break the law by not spending the required amount of time with each kid that "needs it".
In my view, each kid should have equal opportunity, not equal outcome. Each kid deserves the teacher's best, not just those that "need it more". Each kid should be allowed to excel to their own capabilities. We have the technology and ability to do so. So, why aren't we?
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Oh why pretend the source actually matters for you.
Anything that disagreed with your prejudices you would slander.
This prejudice drivel gets modded "Informative?
Who exactly are the prejudiced against? You can't say Indians, as if you read through, they say to hire the lower caste student.
Because the Caste system offends you, you jump to conclusions. The problem is, India does in fact have a Caste system and it still is a large part of their culture. It isn't prejudice to point out what actually exists. And yes, there is exceptions to every "stereotype". But stereotypes exist for a reason, fair or not.
So, yes, judge the individual, but don't ignore the warning signs of stereotypes for "outrage" sake.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
That's funny
This is my first link
http://dailysignal.com/2015/07...
But hey, I can understand people that think protecting the integrity of the voting system is less important than deciding who can buy cigarettes. /sarcasm
Because the protections are not needed but typically act as an effective barrier for the already disenfranchised. Some people think it's more important to help the disenfranchised participate than to protect against a problem that does not exist.
Some privacy policy Slashdot.
This is definitely a problem. There are a lot kids being labeled "special needs" because they suck at reading. Anyone who works with these kids can tell they aren't dyslexic or retarded. They just skipped out on doing any reading in school and never picked up a book outside of school, and now are reading at retard levels. It's fine to help these people get up to speed and learn some reading (although I wonder how good one can really become at reading if you miss the key language acquisition period in development), but their remedial shit shouldn't come at extra expense to the students who did the work at an appropriate age.
Rather than sorting out India's bronze age superstitions, save the trouble and hire a Chinese! You'll get a hard working modern human, not the degenerate leftovers of a poverty civilization.
ONE is too many. Period.
I don't care if it is Diebold or illegitimate votes from dead relatives or illegal immigrants or felons or ....
Integrity of the polls is probably the most important thing to our system in our democratic republic representative governance.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Oh yes, it is so un-American to accept the world's tired, poor, huddled masses.
I don't see that quote anywhere in the Constitution. Or are you talking about the poem that wasn't added to the Statue of Liberty until 1903?
I don't see where I said it was in the Constitution. And that poem was a reflection of a mentality our country had before it was written; Emma Lazarus did not initiate some new immigrant movement in the US.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
This is most hilarious comment on Slashdot!!
Seems like whoever wrote this is completely ignorant of the facts or wants caste reservation in the US jobs too!
My new born has a genetic condition and suffers from many seizures. It'll probably require a "Special Education" and a lots of good luck to be able to function in society at any level in the future.
The outcome will never be equal. Technology and ability is the only reason for survival so far.
I've paid a ton of taxes for other people/s kids, roads, and welfare. Time for society to give something back instead of just taking.
here is exceptions to every "stereotype". But stereotypes exist for a reason, fair or not.
is just saying "prejudice is okay". GP has a point.
I know a company that classifies general call center workers as Engineers so they'll qualify for H1B visas. It's an utter scam.
Tata Consulting and the Management that uses them can burn in hell.
save the trouble and hire a Chinese!
Or just save the trouble of begging USCIS for a non-immigrant petition and hire local.
I'm not a complete idiot... Some parts are missing.
Yeah, life is ugly on my 10 acre hobby farm, though my horse doesn't complain. Glad I don't have howling migrants lusting for it. You should have traveled further than Silicon Valley.
Is everyone who signed this petition a US citizen? Or is this open to any nationality? How is this verified?
It doesn't make sense for any petition to be considered by the White House unless only US citizens are signatories.
That's funny
This is my first link
http://dailysignal.com/2015/07...
But hey, I can understand people that think protecting the integrity of the voting system is less important than deciding who can buy cigarettes. /sarcasm
Because the protections are not needed but typically act as an effective barrier for the already disenfranchised. Some people think it's more important to help the disenfranchised participate than to protect against a problem that does not exist.
300 voter fraud convictions
http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws....
Are you sure you know what the word exists means ?
You mean the article that said:
(quote)
For post-high school programs, the United States is far outspent in public dollars. U.S. taxpayers picked up 36 cents of every dollar spent on college and vocational training programs. Families and private sources picked up the balance.
In other OECD nations, it was roughly reversed: The public picked up 68 cents of every dollar in advanced training and private sources picked up the other 32 cents.
(end quote)
This prejudice drivel gets modded "Informative?" Un-fucking-believable Slashdot
Brahmin, it's just not a caste...it's a religion.
Anyone who has ever worked with Indian grad students knows that we are not getting anything worthwhile by letting them in.
While this is a horribly racist comment,
India is a country and culture, not a race. Twats like you would think someone is being racist if they said Irish are heavy drinkers.
They've been coming for ages, but mostly we'd been keeping the best ones. Now we've introduced US-style visa stupidity so after we've educated them we promptly deport them before they can contribute money to the economy. It used to be relatively easy to transition from a student visa to a work visa (to the extent that some universities got into trouble for sponsoring people for student visas, who never turned up to lectures and then applied for a work visa a bit later). Now it's very hard and often requires returning home and applying for the work visa from there.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
31/1000000000 is as close to none as any human-designed system can get.
You have a better chance of winning Powerball than being affected in any way by a fraudulent vote.
You're cool with billionaires buying election, but a possible 31 votes out of ONE BILLION is just beyond the pale for you.
Don't be silly.
You are welcome on my lawn.
This prejudice drivel gets modded "Informative?
Who exactly are the prejudiced against? You can't say Indians, as if you read through, they say to hire the lower caste student.
Because the Caste system offends you, you jump to conclusions. The problem is, India does in fact have a Caste system and it still is a large part of their culture. It isn't prejudice to point out what actually exists. And yes, there is exceptions to every "stereotype". But stereotypes exist for a reason, fair or not.
So, yes, judge the individual, but don't ignore the warning signs of stereotypes for "outrage" sake.
It's prejudiced against the Brahman. A Brahman is someone whose parents were Brahman. End of story. By suggesting that people should avoid Brahmans, HornWumpus is spreading prejudice. How is that hard to understand? It's no different that the SJWs that assume all men are _____. I was born male and if someone suggests that men should not be hired because they are _____, then that person is being a prejudice ass.
I lived in India a year for work. I've worked with people from all the castes. Some are prejudice and reinforce the caste system. Not just some Brahman, some of every caste behave that way. India's culture is complex and changing quickly. You will find forward thinking people and closed minded ones. To single out the Brahman is pure prejudice. There is no excuse that makes it OK to make such a blanket statement.
Some privacy policy Slashdot.
I didn't slander anything. I just pointed out that the source of your information speaks volumes about you.
People can draw their own conclusions.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Not the original OP. 50 people a year with voter fraud. Less than that was proven. OPs statement is correct.
That really only removes currency from US markets temporarily. If they send USD, those float around and help keep the dollar stable and valued worldwide, or they are used to buy things from the US. If they trade them for their local currency, the bank or moneylender now has more USD, which they'll use for those same purposes as well. The more USD their (presumably less-developed) country has, the more trade can occur, which helps them (raising their standard of living) and us (currency goes back to US markets, keeps circulating).
Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
Slick.
Here we are talking about temporary foreign replacement workers, and you slip 1st and 2nd generation immigrants in, hoping no one would notice. Wrapping it with '40% of Fortune 500' was a nice touch, I'll give you that.
But I noticed. They fall for that bait and switch on the CNN and Fox forums. One should know better around here.
I've been in IT for over twenty years. I have never, ever, felt there was a general consensus in favor of the aptitude, creativity, productivity, quality of workmanship from H1-B workers, F1 Visa interns, or in general 'Indian or Chinese' workers. For the SJWs, there are some really good ones, nothing is 100%. But, there's not that many to warrunt a perceivable pattern of excellence. If they were so good, or even as good as Americans, then why don't they create their own globally influential Apple/Microsoft or IBM? They seem only good enough to do what they're told, what buttons to press at the factories, to complete complex actions without a cognitive understanding of why.
Every individual I had met who had "outsourced" software development, only did so becuase they didn't have enough money for the real programmers; like people who buy fake Rolexes, they do so for the necessity of image while attending high-brow meetings, yet can't actually fit the bill. The moment they became somewhat successful, the first to go was the outsourced contracts; but it is an uphill battle, it's difficult to become successful with sub-par production quality. Then if the company becomes public and has to start answering to shareholders, they return back to the sub-par quality of H1-Bs for the sake of reduced labor costs, because competent programmers, architects and designers are expensive. This is practical, becuase they don't need the expertise to build the infrastracture and their development cycle shifts into more of a maintenance mode; with small feature additions/enhancements being more manageable given all the rest of it.
So, I have never met a true-blue American IT professional, face-to-face, proclaim admiration of foreign IT workers coming into the American workplace. Maybe, an "American"-in-double-quotes, a foreign national who became naturalized who strives for more of his own people in the workplace might have signed this petition, but not a real American. And, certainly not the one forced to train the foreigner to be laid off afterwards; such as has happened at Disney, which is why I refuse to purchase any more Disney products/theme park tickets/even Pixar films.
Becuase of this, I seriously doubt that 100,000 American IT professionals signed this petition.
Imagine how many you might find if you could actually require an ID
Slick.
Here we are talking about temporary foreign replacement workers, and you slip 1st and 2nd generation immigrants in, hoping no one would notice. Wrapping it with '40% of Fortune 500' was a nice touch, I'll give you that.
But I noticed. They fall for that bait and switch on the CNN and Fox forums. One should know better around here.
I have yet to meet an H1B worker who wasn't trying to get citizenship. My sample size is only about a dozen, but I have never seen these H1B immigrants who plan on coming here to work for a couple years and then leaving. This does happen quite often, but only because of how hard it is for them to get green cards.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
I've worked with people from all the castes. Some are prejudice and reinforce the caste system.
Uhh.... if they take the bait, it tells you a lot about them. They're very likely to reinforce the caste, and be completely disruptive in any group environment. That's pretty damn useful information if you're a hiring manager.
Comparing money spent on college education is far more complicated since the US government generally does not pay for college. To compare money spent on college with other OECD nations, you would have to include all government and private spending on college. From a total investment standpoint, the government paying for college is no different than private citizens paying for it; the only difference is whether the payments are direct (loans/savings) or indirect (taxes).
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
I'd be happy to support visa for these folks, but NOT H-1Bs or similar. If we need them, bring them in and give them full rights. If we don't need them that badly, we don't really need them.
I am not sure whether or not you truly understand the relationship between OPT and H1B. OPT (Optional Practice Training) is limited to those who are holding F1 visa and finished school in the U.S. (Associated Degree or higher) so that they can work temporary (it is now up to 29 months), and these people must work in the field they graduated from. H1B is granted to anyone who want to work in the US (up to 6 years) and have a sponsor.
What you said here looks like that H1B is only for those who are from the outside of the country and not graduated from here, which is not true. Many of those who have given OPT would change their status from F1 to H1B. In other words, OPT is just a transition to H1B. So if you said that you do not support everyone who holds H1B, how do you distinguish those who change from OPT to H1B and other H1B holders when they all now have H1B? Please do not suggest that they should have a status or an extra flag for those who come from OPT. It could be seen as discrimination (selective group) and that would put more work on the INS. You should know what happen when the government agency has to do more work than they want to...
Back to the topic, as I mentioned that OPT is now up to 29 months (extended from 12 months), I do not really support the idea of extension; especially when the push is from a big corporation lobbyist -- Disney. Big corporations always find a way to work around the system. If they can't, they just lobby to change the rules/laws...
Bull fucking shit and you know it. These are not immigrants, ass-hole. These are foreign workers being imported on the pre-tense that's there some shortage of American workers. Sell your shit somewhere else.
Of course they would want to extend this illegal H1-B loophole. This way they don't even need to apply and get in the line for the H1-B, they can just bypass it easily by just getting a student visa and working at the full time American jobs.
This drives wages to an all time low and makes it even harder to recruit more kids into these fields, because they already know that they will be low balled by someone with zero economic connection to this country.
And your shit continues. Recent studies have shown there isn't a shortage of workers. Keep it up ass-hole.
LMOL yeah talk to Tata....listen ass-hole, there are more H1B Visa issued than green cards, which means most H1B Visas holders CANNOT become US citizens. Also, H1B Visas holders have been displacing American workers not supplementing, as they are suppose to. Corporations are bringing in cheap foreign labor, nothing more. It's a reverse out-sourcing.
No, you are simply trolling, spewing that bullshit that "..they will still improve the overall quality of our workforce..." as if there aren't enough American workers. Hint ass-hole, there are....http://www.epi.org/publication/bp359-guestworkers-high-skill-labor-market-analysis/
This prejudice drivel gets modded "Informative?" Un-fucking-believable Slashdot
Brahmin, it's just not a caste...it's a religion.
What's your point? The OP was referencing the caste. But even if you limit it to the religious angle it's like saying it's OK to be an anti-Semite because Judaism is a religion. More specifically it's like saying "Don't hire Protestants, they're all uppity. But those Catholics are good workers. They know their place."
Most people are born into their religion. Some take it seriously, some don't. Some are tribal, some are not. Some convert, most don't. The only information to be gleaned from someone being Brahman is that it is 95% likely that their parents were Brahman. And yes, that's a completely made up statistic.
Some privacy policy Slashdot.
Anyone that willfully calls themselves a member of the highest class in a caste system is an asshole to be avoided just as someone that says their family owns slaves should be avoided at minimum and probably imprisoned. Simple as that. Brahman == psychopath, a simple identity. Now if they deny and decry the caste system that has handed them their life on a silver platter, that would make them on par with an average human being, but still not make them decent ones.
I was born not knowing what a fucking Brahman was.
Now I will _never_ knowingly hire one.
I between those two events I met and 'worked' with many. They were/are 'worse than useless' air thieves.
I have no doubt their are exceptions. I also expect they are disgusted by their fellows and never apply the label or thinking.
They are just exactly like 'upper class' Englishmen or old money, east coast Americans. Useless!
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I think he was taking the position that H1Bs are undermining the American Job market. So really the goal is to eliminate the requirement that H1B need a sponsor at all in order to make sure that a person has job mobility and isn't a preferable candidate because of the indentured nature of the H1B program. Or at least eliminate the sponsor requirement after 30 days or something like that. And put minimum salary/income requirements that for the person to get a yearly renewal of their visa their income over the previous year has to be above the prevailing wage for that job and only applicable for jobs in the top 20% by income so they aren't just importing indentured servants.
It is un-American to not hire American's that went to the same schools and can benefit the US economy. There are more than enough skilled US software engineers without full time jobs because American businesses are too fucking lazy to bring them up to date, or don't want to hire them as they could prove to be a good hire that might eventually want more money. This is nuts.
Oh, bullshit. That's not even hyperbole, that's just idiocy. On the scale of "important things in our [so-called] democratic representative governance system", completely eliminating every case of voter fraud probably ranks somewhere below protecting mailmen from getting attacked by dogs while delivering the increasingly-obsolete voter information packets. Organized mass voter fraud would absolutely be a problem; I don't think anybody would ever try to argue otherwise. That's not happening, though, and "ONE case" of voter fraud has less impact on an election than three legitimate voters turned away because they don't have current forms of an ID that they don't have any other need for and that costs time (and usually money) to obtain.
If you want to argue for the integrity of the voting system, then you damn well better make sure that your proposed solution increases the accuracy of the vote outcomes. Turning away legitimate voters counts against that accuracy, in case you hadn't figured that out.
There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
Collectively, immigrants -both legal and illegal- send tens of billions of dollars back to their respective countries every year, removing that currency from US markets. How again is that a "good deal" for the US economy?
1. We get the services for which we paid them. 2. They do spend a lot of their money here (even if it's not all of it). 3. helping the world economy also helps the US economy.
A temporary worker has no interest in improving their host country.
First of all I don't think you get to speak for all temporary workers, and secondly, many permanent workers have no interest in helping their countries either. Luckily the success of the economy does not depend on the good will of those working within it. Workers with no desire to help the countries they work in (foreign and domestic) will help those countries regardless.
It's sad that we don't consider developing these skills in our own population.
I think just about everyone who has thought about the subject has considered this.
The US is a huge country and probably contains the same number of potential STEM workers that we're "taking" from the rest of the world.
If only someone would simply consider leveraging that potential. /s
It just so happens that we don't really want to invest in Americans. Universities, as a whole, tend to like foreign students who pay full tuition.
Actually it is that universities like the best students they can get. They take the best foreign and domestic students they can.
From kindergarten on, we consider most US students to be a burden unless you choose your parents wisely and are able to go to a private school.
There are plenty of good public schools, even if they are often in affluent school districts.
Yes we do have problems with the public school system in this country, but I disagree with your analysis of those problems.
It's not just the corporations getting more money. It also results in lower prices for what is produced.
I have a son who consistently scores in the top 1% of every test he takes. He's unchallenged at school even when he's allowed to take classes 3-4 years ahead.
Technology and ability isn't the only reason he's succeeding. We as parent actually spent time with him and made him a priority.
I've paid (probably) a ton more taxes than you, all of which goes to other people/s kids, and welfare. Time for shits like you to suck it up and realize life ain't fair, and I don't want to pay an disproportional amount so that your kid can continue to fail. Your kid, YOU spend the time with him if you want him to fail slower.
If we are going to be prejudiced, at least do it right and be prejudiced against any related to ITT.
Who exactly are the prejudiced against? You can't say Indians, as if you read through, they say to hire the lower caste student.
Well to any person with satisfactory reading comprehension abilities who read this post, the answer is obviously "Brahmen (top Indian caste)".
I didn't realize the totality of what it is to be American could be boiled down to what is contained in that one document.
There are plenty of people with good resumes. Then you bring them in for interviews, and it becomes apparent that they don't know shit. There are not enough skilled workers to meet demand (foreign + domestic).
Work longer? 80 - 90 hours a week isn't enough?
It's ok cause if Fiorina gets in she'll send all the unwanted unemployed and overly expensive older Workers to Chindia
Send them the HELL home! There are enough foreigners taking American jobs! Ask the American IT workers at Disney how it's working out for them being FORCED to train their Foreign Indian replacements and then told "see ya loser!" by Disney! While we are at it - F* Disney too!
The Truth is a Virus!!!
You know, after reading this post I feel really, really bad for the poor Brahmans.
I mean, some of them still have to live in India. Can you imagine?
Says someone who has obviously never had to hire a significant number of people*.
* evidenced both by not know what you are talking about, and you being abrasive and immature enough to spew ad-hominem insults instead of entering in a rational debate
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Truth told, nerve touched.
Given the abuse of every guest worker program, those are 100000+ individuals that oppose the millions of citizens passed up for work - for being a US citizen!
At best, every body shop staffing firm is having their workers stuff the ballot.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
They're not helping US citizens, as their primary attraction is their pliancy - something desired by business but not possessed by citizens.
They largely don't become citizens, nor do they assimilate - they hire only their own.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Compared to restricted guest workers, citizens would provide a greater value in those same roles. This would be accomplished with more tax revenue, higher domestic GDP (no remittances to siphon off), and higher labor participation rates - all possible with just US citizens.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
This is completely wrong. What stands out about this post is that it has remained so highly modded since it was posted. I generally don't see this combination of complete nonsense plus persistent high modding here. Is there that much animosity towards Brahmins?
Let me tell you why it's wrong: I'm a Brahmin (yes, that's the correct spelling). Everyone in my family has had to work their entire lives, going back to my great grandparents who came from a village. You don't get any special treatment from the government, no royalty check, you don't get a stipend from a temple, unless you're an employee. No. F--king. Stipend. No support from anyone except what you get when you work LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. I've known lots of Brahmins, and they too have had to work just like everyone else. No silver f--king spoon I ever saw.
You know what being a Brahmin is closest to outside India? The Jewish priestly class. I was describing that Brahmins were a priestly caste to a friend of mine (he inquired - not like I bring it up here - no one cares) and he asked if we had any extra temple responsibilities and mentioned the Cohanim - people with the surname Cohen - this is the Jewish priestly class. That's it, that's all a Brahmin is. I don't think non-Cohens have this kind of animosity towards Cohens. I have never ever thought about this literally in all my decades on this planet until just now. I will now have to inquire. Unbelievable.
Seriously? What's up with the modding of this post? I could understand if there were a +1 Troll, but WTF? Seriously, where is this coming from? I'm sure there were abuses in the past, but I have never seen or heard of one, or heard any - ANY - anti-other-caste sentiment from any Brahmin I know. I'm straining my brain right now to remember and... no, not a word. Don't get me wrong, I don't come from any particularly politically-correct background, I've heard the occasional busting on other groups, but never anti-caste sentiment.
Collectively, immigrants -both legal and illegal- send tens of billions of dollars back to their respective countries every year, removing that currency from US markets.
Exporting newly printed dollars and such has been one of the means by which the USA has dominated the world over. It's what allows cheap products and services to reach the USA, allowing its standards of living to be so high.
Those countries need oil. Oil is sold in US dollars. Those countries need dollars. How they get dollars? Sending products and services in exchange of electronic bits. The US gets the goods, the world gets the inflation.
Therefore, immigrants sending dollars out of the USA does nothing of actually bad for the US economy. Rather, it's damaging for everyone else.
Now, China is currently thinking of sending a few hundred billions, perhaps a few trillions, of US dollars back to the USA. When that happens I don't think you'll like the results...
Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
they hire only their own
You don't find it a bit odd when you complain foreign workers only hire their own while arguing that we shouldn't hire foreign workers?
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
There's not a shortage of bodies with degrees, but there is a shortage of suitable workers. When you got people with 10 years of experience in programming but can't pass the Fizz Buzz test, all you have is an overabundance of liars.
If we don't hire someone on an H-1B to do work in the US, they will do it somewhere else, and ALL of their income will go to that country. Not only does it hurt the economy, but it hurts businesses who may not be able to find skilled IT professionals in the US. The result will be more foreign startups and foreign competition against US based companies. A company that may have been started in the US will now be started in Ireland or Vietnam, and US companies in need of whatever service that company provides will go to them, and pay their employees, instead of hiring people inside the US. It's understandable that people feel threatened when they see foreign workers, but that threat will exist with or without immigration. The fact that you no longer see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist anymore. In fact, without immigration, you might soon find yourself looking outside the US for a job. That startup that could have been located in the US, but is now in Ireland instead? They might be hiring soon.
Great way to convince yourself of the delusion that illegal aliens contribute positively to the u.s. economy.
Facts show that its costing us billions of dollars a year to just have these invading swarms generating heat in my nation.
Illegal immigration is about Nationality. If you are not a legal citizen of a nation then you better be on vacation, or your have broken a law.
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