Slashdot Mirror


When Does Software Start Becoming Malware?

New submitter Da w00t writes: Talos security researchers detected a malicious shockwave flash file that not only bypasses pop-up blockers, but also accurately fingerprints computers with the help of some JavaScript. The 'Infinity Popup Toolkit' is a prime example of software that falls into this gray area by bypassing browser pop-up blocking. In deciding to classify the toolkit as malware, the researchers pondered where the line lies between software that's harmful and software that's not. Quoting: "Without a clear standard defining what is and is not acceptable behavior, identifying malware is problematic. In many situations, users are confronted with software that exhibits undesirable behavior such as the Java installer including a default option to install the Ask.com toolbar. Even though many users objected to the inclusion of the Ask.com toolbar, Oracle only recently discontinued including it in Java downloads after Microsoft changed their definition of malware which then classified the Ask.com toolbar as malware."

165 comments

  1. When you didn't ask to install it. by xxxJonBoyxxx · · Score: 5, Informative

    >> When Does Software Start Becoming Malware?

    When I didn't ask to install it. Toolbars (like this), automatic update services (that are silently added) and anything else that impacts my resources or distributes my information in a way I didn't choose is malware, IMHO.

    Looking at you, Windows 10...

    1. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      When I didn't ask to install it.

      Oh but you did. Didn't you read the EULA and look for the tiny size 4 "opt-out" text on the screen?

      I would go one step further, any software is malware when it does something other than the user intended. It doesn't matter that the Ask toolbar had a checkbox in the installer, the fact was unless I went to Ask.com and downloaded it there it's malware. Likewise it doesn't matter that I installed Windows 10, the fact that it sends data without the user's intention makes it malware.

    2. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by war4peace · · Score: 3, Interesting

      When I didn't ask to install it.

      I would go one step further, any software is malware when it does something other than the user intended.

      So... software bugs are all malware?

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    3. Re: When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. If a bug is that bad then yes it is malware until the makers fix it.

    4. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by mark-t · · Score: 2

      Software bugs are not malware, but they can turn the software in which they exist into malware whenever the software does something other than what the user intended.

    5. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by jbmartin6 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well you are right there is technically a flaw in the definition. But it is a good concept though. How about 'by design does something the user did not intend'

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    6. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by mlts · · Score: 1

      Part of the definition should be software that sends or alters data and the machine configuration from a user's machine without explicit authorization and without a direct, primary purpose beneficial to the user.

      Something like VirusTotal where a user scans a file against a good amount of AV programs passes these two tests. It has a primary reason to grab and upload a file, and the user explicitly uploaded it.

      Browser fingerprinting software, update "services", loopback tunneling services to MITM SSL, and many other items do not benefit the user, nor are they often even authorized, so they are thus malware.

      The gray area are processes like Blizzard's Warden and Valve's VAC which scan and upload data to see if a user is cheating.

    7. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That still doesn't opt out. My Windows 10 desktop that I barely use has used more bandwidth in the past week that every other one of my computers combined. It is still sending a hell of a lot of information to Microsoft.

    8. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So do systemd's binary logs, which are like that by design, although this is unwanted by many users, qualify it as "malware"?

    9. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "distributes my information in a way I didn't choose"

      Well you must have completely ignored the part of the install where you opt in or out of 99% of the data tracking or you are just a troll. But I agree, *parts* of windows 10 could arguably be classified as malware but only by those willfully ignorant.

      The same can be said for toolbars and mcafee being installed with java or flash. Just because you blindly clicked through and didn't read what you were agreeing to, doesn't make it malware. That said, there are plenty of legit software packages that DO plant malware without consent or notice.

      When does it become malware? When:

      I was not asked, or notified, of it's installation
      It performs actions and features that I have no control over and did not consent to.

      Every single application, OS, whatever, that "distributes my information I didn't choose" actually informed you of the fact that they'd use your data as they see fit, you opt out option is to not install it.

      Failing to read what you are agreeing to is about 75% of the "malware" out there.

    10. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about this as a definition of malware. Anything that that tries to install an un-asked-for toolbar, cookie, or anything else that I did not ask for or expect. Ad to that anything that sends (or tries to send) any information about me, my files, browsing habits or browsing history anywhere, especially without my explicit written and signed permission. Ad to that anything that installs (or tries to install) anything on my computer/tablet/phone by deceptive means. Such as a check box that is not clearly labelled or is partly or completely hidden in a menu or submenu, or is not clearly visible and clearly labelled during an install of any software or driver, and does not clearly and completely explain why any such function is necessary. Ad to that any OS or software (or hardware) that performs any function that is not clearly explained in plain and simple language before installation and/or purchase. Ad to that any OS or software that tries to automatically update itself without the consent of the device owner for each and every such update, and /or without explaining exactly what the update is for and will do, and exactly why it is necessary in clear and plain language. Ad to that anything from Microsoft!

    11. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily.

      Software becomes malware when it does something objectively bad for my interests. Software that has useful function but performs background work that's harmful to my interests is the special breed of malware we call "trojan horses". We still call that malware though (eventually, once we find out).

      Software can be malware without ever having been installed on any computer. All this requires is that the behavior of the software (intentionally or unintentionally) harms the user. We say "unintentionally" because there have been rootkits in the past (I'm looking at you, Sony) that operate in manners that would expose the user to harm when combined with real malware to form a perfect storm. The intent of the rootkit wasn't to damage the computer but that's what it ended up doing. DRM-schemes frequently cross into the gray area because they do strange things to your machine in order to function. Sometimes those things cause huge problems as side-effects.

      The interesting cross-section is the services sector when combined with data-mining. Software that collects data which the company then uses for other nefarious purposes could also be classed as malware. The definition there isn't in what they do with your computer but what they do with your data. Is Facebook malware? Some would say "yes".

      Malware is like weeds. Weeds are unwanted plants and some people like dandelions. Ergo, malware for one person isn't necessarily malware for another person. YMMV.

    12. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by N1AK · · Score: 2

      Given that pretty much the definition of a bug is doing something the user didn't intend (with a small exemption for doing things the maker didn't want, but the user did intend) that's a pretty pointless distinction.

      If you define malware this ridiculously widely then it achieves nothing aside from making the term pointless.

    13. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by INT_QRK · · Score: 1

      The problem is that consumers who are "users" of off-the-shelf software may only "intend" that key advertised and user-visible functionality should exist in any application. Consumers, by and large, unconsciously assume that any additional and hidden functions are somehow in good-faith support of the user-visible functionality. However, those same consumers really have no knowledge or insight into any functionality of compiled code other than advertised and user-visible functions. For an application of any common complexity, invisible functionality may be a majority of the code base. So, "functions only as intended" begs the further definition, "intended by whom"? -- the user or the developer? For custom code, the developer can be held responsible contractually to deliver specific users requirements, and can be further bound to deliver no more. But, for consumers of off-the-shelf software, the user assumes the risk that the application was coded in good faith to the advertised draw that sold the software. Perhaps an "Underwriters Laboratory" type assertion that the "software functions only as advertised and no more" is needed for consumers to trust that their software is secure. Trust is achieved through visibility.

    14. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I said it *CAN*.... not that it *DOES*.

      I more specifically define malware as software that, without the user desiring it, changes how some other piece of software that was not installed with it functions. Software bugs can cause this to happen.

    15. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh but you did. Didn't you read the EULA and look for the tiny size 4 "opt-out" text on the screen?


      Copyright (c) <YEAR>, <OWNER>
      All rights reserved.

      Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
      modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

      1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this
            list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
      2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice,
            this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation
            and/or other materials provided with the distribution.

      THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND
      ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED
      WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE
      DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR
      ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES
      (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;
      LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND
      ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT
      (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS
      SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

      The views and conclusions contained in the software and documentation are those
      of the authors and should not be interpreted as representing official policies,
      either expressed or implied, of the FreeBSD Project.

      I did read it. I see no "opt out" text. Sorry.

    16. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by rtkluttz · · Score: 2

      No, I think its way earlier than that. Software is malware when the device owner isn't in control of the software. If it communicated with anyone or anything in a way that you are unable to view, start and stop communications then it is malware. If it does things without asking you telling it to or at least authorizing automated activity, it is malware. If it enables secrecy between your device and a 3rd party that you aren't privvy to, it is malware.

      --
      Digital is, by definition, imperfect. Analog is the way to go.
    17. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would go one step further, any software is malware when it does something other than the user intended.

      Every piece of software my father has tried to use is malware, apparently.

    18. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      So... software bugs are all malware?

      I believe they can be. What is the practical difference to the end user between a virus blocking access to the internet to prevent you downloading software to eliminate it, and for example a VPN client with a kill switch not correctly unloading the TAP driver (happened on my father's machine) resulting in a computer that is completely unusable?

      The end result to the user is the same: no internet.
      The resulting fix is the same: remove the guilty package and replace it with something the user wanted.

      Do intentions matter at this point?

    19. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by sconeu · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then Malware is DESIGNED to do something other than what the user intended.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    20. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by vux984 · · Score: 1

      Frankly, I think the solution is that it needs to be community based. Develop your antimalware kit, develop 'removal' tools for pretty much everything.

      Maintain an obvious malware list internally, where there is no debate.

      Then let communities develop lists of their own lists, and allow users to subscribe to one or more of those lists. Stuff like ask.com and mcafee security scan, and other borderline stuff will be added to the community lists.

      The decision making process is then shifted to the people the decisions affect. If a manufacturer doesn't like the fact that its listed on a popular community list... tough shit... its on that list because the community that uses that list doesn't want that software. If you don't like it, make software they want.

    21. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by mrchaotica · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The difference is malicious intent. A bug is when the programmer is trying to make the software do what the user wants, but accidentally fails. Malware is when the programmer is trying to make the software do what the programmer wants, user's wishes be damned.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    22. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, so instead of a hard and fast definition, we just go with "whatever I think of as malware".

    23. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 2

      That doesn't work either. Because 'by design' Windows prefetch uses system resources to allocate memory so that something the user will arguably like (have applications load faster). Users are so ignorant of the workings of their computers we couldn't have computers only do "What the user intended" to happen.

      My proposed definition would be:
      "By design works against the user's best interests."

      For instance in Windows 10 users intend for their touch keyboard to work well. In order for a touch keyboard to work well it really needs to learn your typing patterns and correct for them. That means you have to share that data. So is collecting anonymous typing pattern data to improve the accuracy of your keyboard something the user intended? I would argue no.

      Similarly if you use SafeScreen on windows it'll upload a hash of the download to Microsoft to see if it's a known virus or a known safe file. Does the user intend to install viruses? No. Does the user know to ask for a service which performs a hash check on all of their downloads? Probably not.

      So while the user might intend to use SafeScreen or Prefetch or even the notorious 'keylogger' in Windows 10 I would argue that they aren't caught up by false positives in the definition:
      "By design works against the user's best interests."

      They arguably are working for the user's best interests not a third party's. Even telemetry data then gets into a debatable position where we can have an honest conversation. "Is anonymous telemetry which improves stability at the cost of some marginal privacy in the user's best interest?" Some can argue yes some can argue no but it's clear that we at least acknowledge and agree on the same definition.

      It also works in relationship to Windows 10 pre-downloading installation files without an opt-in. Whose interest is upgrading to Windows 10 serving? If it's exclusively Microsoft's then it's malware. If it's legitimately helping the user by moving them off of an unsupported OS into one which is perhaps more secure then it's maybe an overzealous protection but not malware. If however though it consumes $40 worth of bandwidth on a LTE connection because the user didn't have it set to a metered connection then it's malware since it's not working in the user's best interest. Again it gets into that lovely gray zone of what's an accident, what's a bug, what's by design and what's in the user's best interest. By debating the specifics we can have an empirical and yet robust debate on whether it meets the criteria.

    24. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by fullgandoo · · Score: 1

      >> When Does Software Start Becoming Malware?

      When I didn't ask to install it. Toolbars (like this), automatic update services (that are silently added) and anything else that impacts my resources or distributes my information in a way I didn't choose is malware, IMHO.

      Looking at you, Windows 10...

      I'm a bit curious. Would you include Chrome in this classification? Just about every other free download from most sites has Google Chrome with the check-box already checked.

    25. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Windows 10 has been shown to transmit lots of data even after you have opted out, so your point is moot.

    26. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by thsths · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The definition is actually quite simple:

      If software intentionally does something the user does not want.

      It is a subset of bad software (which does not require intent).

      Of course intent is difficult to prove, but any kind of revenue sharing is usually a pretty good clue.

    27. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by thsths · · Score: 2

      Bingo. And this definition is not even contentious - but it clearly includes Java. It also includes many "freemium" games.

    28. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by thsths · · Score: 1

      Yes, I like this. The definition clearly identifies the gray zone, and it can be further refined by defining the terms in the definition.

    29. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by graphius · · Score: 1

      It could be argue that bugs are malware, but my definition of malware is that it benefits someone besides the user/owner* of the software.

      *Not sure how corporate spying software falls

    30. Re: When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what in FreeBSD was malware or installed without your knowledge? I failed to see wtf you are talking about.

    31. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by ewibble · · Score: 2

      The users best interest is far to vague, you could say the NSA spying on you is in the users best interest as well because they are trying to protect you. You could say selling your information to advertisers is in the users best interest because it lets you buy product that you want.

      There needs to be a list of user rights that should not be violated unless granted explicit opt-in rights. Here is a list of some.

      1. Right to privacy, no information should be recorded unless it is apparent to the so. So entering data in a form on a web page is ok, recording keystrokes when using your computer in your text editor is not.
      2. Do not use the users computing resources, CPU, memory, bandwidth, for anything other than the stated intent of the applications.

    32. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by ewibble · · Score: 1

      Most software bugs do not result blocking internet access or any virus like behavior, they may crash your game, they may not allow you to do particular thing in your application you are running. They don't generally send out key log information, allow a remote attacker to gain to your computer (sometimes they do but usually not), make your computer part of a DOS attach.

      By the original definition

      Any software is malware when it does something other than the user intended.

      all software bugs are malware, because they probably do what the at least one user doesn't want. In fact, this definition is so broad that, even an application that has no bugs is probably defined as malware, if it has a single feature that the any user doesn't like, no matter how innocuous, e.g. uses a font that the user doesn't like.

    33. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by farble1670 · · Score: 1

      I would go one step further, any software is malware when it does something other than the user intended. It doesn't matter that the Ask toolbar had a checkbox in the installer, the fact was unless I went to Ask.com and downloaded it there it's malware. Likewise it doesn't matter that I installed Windows 10, the fact that it sends data without the user's intention makes it malware.

      think about your OS and installed software, and really, think hard if you explicitly asked for them to them to do everything they do. you don't even know everything they do.

      as for linux, not too long ago it forced Ubuntu One on me and had a persistent icon in my bar. i never asked for that. i guess Ubuntu is malware too.

    34. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup, and MS and the NSA like that feature so much, they backported it to Windows 7 and 8!

    35. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by HyperQuantum · · Score: 1

      Malware is when the programmer is trying to make the software do what the programmer wants, user's wishes be damned.

      You mean like DRM?

      --
      I am not really here right now.
    36. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Yes. All DRM is malware (but not all malware is DRM).

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    37. Re: When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are they really bugs when the creator is Malin money from the "mistake"? Whether or not you intended to send that data to M$ or not, they will sell it to their partners and affiliates along with the rest.

    38. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      think about your OS and installed software, and really, think hard if you explicitly asked for them to them to do everything they do. you don't even know everything they do.

      You opted in to your OS when you bought or installed it. That's not quite the same thing.

      If a piece of software writes persistent-id-cookie-type information to my hard drive, and I did not explicitly give it permission to do that (as I do with my OS and any DRMed purchased software I install... which is damned little), it's malware. I don't give a damn about any other definition.

    39. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't deny the sentiment, but I frown on the idea of using ambiguous qualifiers. "I did/didn't want the way this is working" is too vague to formally categorize something. Universally.

    40. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Kavonte · · Score: 1

      Indeed. This is one of those stories I looked at and thought "isn't it obvious" only to find out upon reading the comments that people can confuse the hell out of any simple issue. ...but I finally found a comment that gets it right, so I can go do something else now.

      I'd make one small change to your comment though, just to remove "user's wishes be damned," so that it isn't perceived as a requirement that the software must be particularly viscous about preferring its intentions to the user's intentions.

      Imagine this real-life example: You walk into a fast-food restaurant and in the process of taking your order, the cashier says "if you'd prefer to not be over-charged, please say so now." So you say as much, an the cashier doesn't overcharge you. Is that an OK thing to do simply because the cashier obeyed your wishes? ...or is it not OK because the cashier is clearly hoping to successfully take advantage of someone, as eventually someone will be distracted when that statement is made and fail to respond appropriately, resulting in the cashier getting some free cash and being able to claim that they had consent and so no laws were broken?

      The simple fact is that software shouldn't do things that people don't want it to do, and while many EULA authors seem to think otherwise, consent isn't something that can be given by default. Even asking for permission and getting an affirmative response isn't necessarily consent, e.g. when that affirmative response is given under duress.

      "Consent" is in the mind of the person who consents. The whole deal about asking for permission and getting an affirmative response is merely a tool for establishing that consent exists, and like most tools, it only works when it is used properly. In the end, we can't read people's minds, and so we have to balance the effort that we put into establishing that consent exists with the consequences of being wrong about our determination. Thus, we have doctors who insist upon explaining an essential surgery to you for ten minutes before accepting your permission to perform it, but they'll test your blood pressure under the blind assumption that they have your consent to do so merely because you're one of their patients.

      So look at an installer that also installs a browser toolbar that collects information and transmits it over the internet. The installer aims for the weakest certainty of consent specifically because the author of the installer wants the toolbar to be installed regardless of the user's wishes, and so they're not interested in actually determining whether consent exists. All they want is something to point towards and say "it gives you the option to decline the installation of the toolbar."

      Unfortunately, the intricacies of consent are complex enough that such tactics are likely to always be sufficient to avoid any consequences for such slimy behavior. Even though, in an emotional sense, everyone knows that a checked-by-default option to install spyware is wrong, showing that it is wrong in a logical sense requires enough thought that most people aren't going to bother, and so we ignore what we all know to be true and instead declare "as long as you ask, it's OK" because we prefer over-simplified logic to emotion.

    41. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by im_thatoneguy · · Score: 1

      You just revealed the best feature of the definition not a flaw. Because:
      1. Google Docs records every keystroke to the cloud. That's in the user's best interest to have live collaborative editing. So is that a keylogger? Yep. Is it a keylogger that has the user's interest at heart? Yes.

      2. This would work better if in fact there was a 'stated intent' of an application. What is an application's stated intent? Notepad is for writing code. Or a novel. Or ASCII art. And that's just notepad!

      Selling information to advertisers is something many applications do and as long as it's transparent so that you can know if you ask then it's up to you to decide whether it is in fact in the best interest of yourself. You're really ultimately advocating for transparency. That doesn't change whether something is malware or not.

    42. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      systemd certainly is malware

    43. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Opyros · · Score: 1

      "Consent" is in the mind of the person who consents. The whole deal about asking for permission and getting an affirmative response is merely a tool for establishing that consent exists, and like most tools, it only works when it is used properly.

      IOW there must be a meeting of the minds.

    44. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by N1AK · · Score: 1

      I think that is a pretty good rule of thumb, and it clearly excludes software with bugs which was in the definition I was taking exception to.

    45. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by N1AK · · Score: 1

      That definition really doesn't make sense, even if it sounds nice to a demographic that hates not being able to do whatever they want. By that definition any software that charges for premium functionality is malware because the restriction on functionality is for the software makers benefit not the users. Software released under many open source licenses could also be considered malware as the requirement that anyone who modifies the code has to release the changes isn't for their benefit it is for the benefit of others.

    46. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by gweihir · · Score: 1

      They certainly qualify as support for malware.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    47. Re: When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what in FreeBSD was malware or installed without your knowledge?

      Absolutely nothing. Just pointing out that the entire "EULA" is clear and brief, with no shenanigans.

      I failed to see wtf you are talking about.

      That's because you are dumb.

    48. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Yes. All DRM is malware (but not all malware is DRM).

      That definition really doesn't make sense, even if it sounds nice to a demographic that hates not being able to do whatever they want.

      In other words, a demographic that respects the concept of property rights. Once I buy [a copy of] something, I own it [i.e., that copy]. Because it is my property, I have the right to use it as I wish!

      Some examples:

      • If I buy a house, the seller can't tell me I'm not allowed to sell it to black people.
      • If I buy a car, the seller can't tell me I can only take it to the dealer for repair, and am not allowed to repair it myself with third-party parts.
      • If I buy a book, the author can't tell me I can't cross stuff out or write in the margin.

      By that definition any software that charges for premium functionality is malware because the restriction on functionality is for the software makers benefit not the users.

      That's different: you're talking about selling a thing with some functionality to the user for one price, or selling a thing with more functionality to the user for a higher price. And that's fine! What's not fine is selling a thing to the user and then telling him he's "not allowed" to use the functionality he already has. It's the after-the-fact restriction on his property rights that's the problem.

      If you decide to sell the thing with more functionality to the user for the lower-functionality price and the user modifies it to enable that functionality, that is the user's right. It's his property, and you gave up the right to restrict the thing's use by selling it -- in fact, that's what "selling" means. If that bothers you, then you shouldn't have stupidly sold it for a price lower than you wanted in the first place!

      Software released under many open source licenses could also be considered malware as the requirement that anyone who modifies the code has to release the changes isn't for their benefit it is for the benefit of others.

      You are either ignorant or trolling. I will charitably assume the former, for now.

      The open source license clauses you refer to only require changes to be released by anyone who modifies the code AND DISTRIBUTES the modified version. That's an important distinction! Why? Because basic property law already establishes the user's right to make modifications to that copy; accepting the license is not necessary to have that right.

      Copying and redistributing, on the other hand, is restricted by copyright law, and the license gives the user the right to do that -- which he otherwise would not have -- in exchange for his promise to distribute source code that matches the binary he distributes.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    49. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Yet again, Stallman is proven right. He was right all along, and the future he predicted is coming true. A future where software works against us.

      All because we trusted closed source software not to be evil. Slowly evil became the norm.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    50. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by war4peace · · Score: 1

      No, I think that's still too broad. If the user intends to give away 5000 copies of that software to people who didn't buy it, but the software prevents that through online license number checking, it would be malware. But it's not.
      Calling it malware is, IMO, a dickish move.
      Maybe "the software does, by design, something that the user didn't intend to do, and does it without notifying the user of whatever it is that it's doing". Not really complete, but takes things a step further.

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    51. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by war4peace · · Score: 1

      NSA would argue that spying on people is not against their best interests.
      In a nutshell: depends who you're asking :)

      --
      ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    52. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      In other words, a demographic that respects the concept of property rights. Once I buy [a copy of] something, I own it [i.e., that copy]. Because it is my property, I have the right to use it as I wish!

      But I thought software, like digital music and movies, wasn't property and therefore couldn't be stolen?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    53. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Copyright is not property (it is a limited monopoly, an intangible concept), and can only be "infringed:" making a copy does not "steal" the copyright; the copyright holder still has it.

      An individual copy is property, and can be stolen.

      Let's say Alice owns a CD of music created by Bob. If Eave takes Alice's CD then Alice doesn't have it anymore -- Eave has stolen Alice's property. If instead Eave copies Alice's CD then Eave has (probably*) infringed upon Bob's copyright.

      (*unless Eave had Bob's direct or indirect permission (e.g. Bob had chosen a permissive license), or the purpose of Eave's copying fell under Fair Use.)

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    54. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When it does something behind your back (1970 definition)
      And when money has been accepted for the privilege of taking advantage of something for personal gain.
      This USED to be called fraud, but now its called tracking, pushing, monitoring whatever - unless it looks like Nigerian 4 something.

      It is a great shame that security professionals do not salt the data collection with false leads that the beneficiaries are pissing money into the wind.
      May I get many more credit card offers for Mrs Irma Bankrupt and Mohan Mohair C/O ABC correctional facility.We bait cold callers by putting them on hold. Personally I found a free club form at a babygoods store generated 200+ mail items all returned with 'Mother Deceased' . Presidential candidates are great names to use.

    55. Re:When you didn't ask to install it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disable cookies and stfu?

  2. When... by Arkh89 · · Score: 2

    When the ratio nuisance / benefits is larger than some threshold (>=1)?

    1. Re:When... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the ratio nuisance / benefits is larger than some threshold (>=1)?

      Software becomes malware when it deliberately bypasses system and user settings (like pop-up blockers) to do something that the user obviously does not want done.

  3. RE:When Does Software Start Becoming Malware? by dejitaru · · Score: 1

    when it becomes malicious? tbh, I think it's when software does something that the user wasn't expecting or want and feels that they can't trust that software anymore.

  4. Simple malware test by netsavior · · Score: 2

    Here is the test: Does the software do anything that I want it to do? Did I install it or did I have a choice in installing it (a real choice, not a tricky dialog box). And finally, the true test... if someone UNINSTALLED or stopped this software from functioning, would I actively try to re-enable it.
    If it doesn't meet these criteria, then it is spyware, crapware, malware, or junk, and should be classified as malicious. This includes almost all programs and web pages. This is Sturgeon's law, 90% of everything is crap. But in computer science you can take it one step farther. 90% of everything is crap, and 90% of the stuff that is worthwhile is designed to keep away the crap.

    1. Re:Simple malware test by LVSlushdat · · Score: 0

      Perfect description of Windows 10... Sure, it has all those cutesy little toggle switches to turn off all of the fancy new "send_everything_I_do_to_MS" geegaws, but I certainly don't trust them to not turn them back on, by a new "update" or just because they're Microsoft and they KNOW whats best for YOU, citizen... I played with one of the later 10000-vintage builds, and you could turn off Cortana with the little "switch", and also go to group policy editor and turn it off there also, and guess what? you still have a Cortana process running, which comes right back in a second, if you kill it... Yeah... I'm gonna trust Microsoft.. I'll trust them about as far as I can throw them.... So glad I moved all my systems to Linux shortly after retirement...

      --
      THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
    2. Re:Simple malware test by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Malware can also be trojan. Spyware is an excelent example of that, most spyware is very useful, they just collect data on you and sell it on. In some cases like Google, you don't even risk them selling it on to anyone criminal, just for advertisement.

      So some spyware is certainly malware.

      The real question is: Is Chrome or Android, they are if Windows 10 is.

    3. Re:Simple malware test by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      So, if I were to write a computer game you really liked, and had it send me interesting things like your personal information, credit card numbers, and porn, it isn't malware? You installed it, it does something you want, and if you didn't know any better you'd want the software reinstalled if it were removed.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re:Simple malware test by gweihir · · Score: 1

      But in computer science you can take it one step farther. 90% of everything is crap, and 90% of the stuff that is worthwhile is designed to keep away the crap.

      Very true. My chosen field has decided to screw itself over repeatedly and with a vengeance. I really do not get the level of stupidity that gets applied. It is like every moron that can barely write a line of code insists on shaping the "future" of CS. CS also still fails to really be engineering or science. This is just pathetic, given the time it had to evolve.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  5. Empirically speaking... by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1, Funny

    Based on Skype and now Windows 7-10, I'd say that Microsoft-owned --> Malware.

    1. Re:Empirically speaking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Username checks out.

    2. Re:Empirically speaking... by jafac · · Score: 1

      YEs.

      And in the example in the OP; if Microsoft deems the "ask.com" toolbar as "malware" - - - hmm, is that because users don't want it? Or is it because Microsoft doesn't want a competitor's search engine on the desktop? This rabbit-hole doesn't actually go that deep.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  6. as a linux user, i can explain. by nimbius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    coming from windows and mac, its hard to imagine youd need a definition. For a linux user, the answer is simply whenever the application does something i did not tell it to do.
    when i read its changelog and its now, for example like firefox, going to include a targeted advertising system. If the application lies about its intended function, or prevents me from using my computer as I've set out to use it.

    For some of us, malware is an ethos, foretold by Richard Stallman. in Linux the word of root is sacrosanct. there are no upgrades, no updates, and no communication from the system or its processes that is not controlled by or intrinsically authorized by root. For myself, Windows and Mac have been malware for quite some time.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by CannonballHead · · Score: 2

      So, you specifically told every single Linux program what to do? You actually told gdm to start? You told your web browser to cache data? You told vi to automatically make backup files?

      I get your primary point. But the way you put it may be a little bit simplistic for a complex system. My Linux boxes do a lot of things that I didn't actually tell it to do. Cron runs, and I didn't tell it to. I know it does it, but I didn't TELL it to. It's default behavior. Some distros have sudo automatically setup. Some distros have ntp setup. Some automatically check (but don't install) for updates. All of that, I didn't tell it to do. Unless that also counts as malware?

    2. Re: as a linux user, i can explain. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If your cron jobs are running without you telling them when and what to run, something is wrong.

    3. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All of those examples are well documented so the user should know about them, as opposed to the example in the article or the examples provided by the person you quoted.
      The key here is transparency.

    4. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you install Mageia Linux, there is a summary page that allows the person controlling the install to define much of the behavior of the system. This includes a services page where one can allow/disallow cron, ntp etc.
      When I install firefox/palemoon I go through all of the preferences to set up the browsers. In the preferences you can allow/disallow the cache, cookies, javascript, etc. Although when noscript is installed it seems to takeover the javascript allow/disallow which is fine.
      Similar to most aspects of a linux/BSD install

    5. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      So, you specifically told every single Linux program what to do? You actually told gdm to start? You told your web browser to cache data? You told vi to automatically make backup files?

      The software has a description of what it does. As such, he told them those pieces of software to do those things when he accepted the defaults in good faith during the initial installation.

    6. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everything in Microsoft Windows 10 is fully and transparently documented, and the documentation was on display for months before release.

      It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard.”

    7. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by Catiline · · Score: 2

      I have a laptop running Gentoo as its' sole OS. The fact there is a cron service installed at all is because I wanted one. Whether the system boot manager is OpenRC or systemd was my choice, not somebody in charge of the distribution. For any compilation option that can be turned on or off, there is a good chance that it is exposed to the package manager and thus I chose its' state when installing. (If not, portage is the simplest manager I've seen when altering installation scripts, so overriding that choice is very easy.) Most packages don't automatically include their software into a runlevel: you also choose if (and when) they would run.

      That control was why I chose Gentoo: not for privacy or a protest against "stealth software" (the Steam client is installed), but because by having to touch each and every part of the system I get a clearer idea of how these parts mesh. I would highly recommend setting up a machine in this fashion: it's a very educational experience.

    8. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      when he accepted the defaults in good faith

      Exactly. So, the issue here isn't so much what MS is doing, but not being more up front about it. In other words - documentation and probably some better decisions (heh). But the OP said that malware was a program doing anything that he didn't *tell* it to do. Telling something to do something is active; accepting defaults is fairly passive, I would argue.

      Maybe it's a nitpick, but I see it as a pretty big one. Linux distros do a lot of things that I didn't actually ask them to do. It just so happens that they do a lot less without me knowing than Windows or OS X.

      Here's a good example: what does a given Linux distro do when you plug in a USB drive? I'm not sure. :) Most seem to prompt for what to do. As does Windows. Some may open the folder automatically. Some don't even mount it automatically. Offhand, I can't remember what the distro that I use most at work (RHEL) does.

    9. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by CannonballHead · · Score: 1

      So even within Linux distros, there's differences in how much they do without you "knowing." This was my point. :)

      I haven't actually setup Gentoo... I played with Sabayon at one time, but that's a just a Gentoo-based distro, as I recall. I don't think I had to do the whole crazy long Gentoo installation and configuration process.

      But I've installed and configured a whole lot of aix, linux, solaris, hp-ux, and windows servers for work, so I'm not unfamiliar with the way *nix works. :)

    10. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Good definition. I like it.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    11. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      My argument is that defaults are active because you told the software to install and trust that it's going to do what it says on the tin. If I install a widget that says it'll automatically delete my browsing history when I close my browser, I should be able to reasonably trust that by default it's not going to erase my hdd while leaving my history intact or send the history out to a 3rd party before deleting it.

      Obviously there's an element of degree to it, which I think is where the nitpicking comes in. Auto-mounting a USB stick (or not) on a desktop OS isn't necessarily a behavior that has a huge impact. In the context of RHEL (we also use this at work and I couldn't tell you the default behavior without going to the lab to check :P ) it's something that happens in an obvious up-front way, is easily changed, and is something that one might reasonably expect an operating system to do. If it was some other linux distro that stealthily mounted the drive, ghosted the contents to a random folder, then hid the fact that it did so, that action is arguably a lot more nefarious and something that one would not reasonably expect as a default behavior of a desktop operating system.

    12. Re:as a linux user, i can explain. by allo · · Score: 1

      At this point you start with the big picture. You installed some distro to have a usable desktop. you expect a sane login system. Your distro does so, by using gdm. So your distro does what you expect from it, gdm does whats needed to fulfill this. cron is some helper, which does useful things, too. You may inspect it or disable it. Now systemd is another topic ...
      But in the end, its something you (indirectly) chose. Some flash downloaded from a website is downloaded by some software you trust, still it is hidden and does things, where the programmer knew, they are against the user.

  7. Lies by Moof123 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When the software behaves counter to the stated purpose, or the company behind it lies about the what they are doing with data collected by the software, it is malware.

    Sadly Windows appears to fall into this with all their recent auto-downloading of Windows 10, and extra monitoring being added to 7 and 8. I welcome a broader definition that shames such behavior, if not criminalizes it. Google is a little more upfront about this being their business model, but I still squirm at their cavalier collection of every piece of information they can get their paws on.

    1. Re:Lies by jbmartin6 · · Score: 1

      This was my first reaction too, and I thought along the lines of: if it conceals what it does (encryption or obfuscation) and will not work within the existing controls. Yes, I know encryption has legit uses so that as a criteria needs some refinement. I was just thinking of all the signatures that block obfuscated Javascript. Sure, some stuff is obfuscated and isn't malicious in any other way, but you know what? We never missed it. Honest people and/or software act openly and directly. To me at least anything that moves beyond that model is suspicious.

      --
      This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
    2. Re: Lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gmail is not an email system, it's an ad delivery system that also happens to deliver email.

    3. Re:Lies by jafac · · Score: 1

      I welcome a broader definition that shames such behavior, /i>

      Really? I don't see that as a new thing. I see this as an extension of the Computing Ethics class I took for my degree. It was required. I suspect that when you get Marketroids making Engineering decisions (as you very commonly see at Microsoft), you end up with people who haven't been required to take a Computing Ethics class - making UNETHICAL decisions.

      All this data collection that has been going on since around 2000 or so, was deemed completely unacceptable in the 1990's. You didn't even need to discuss it, because everyone pretty much agreed that they didn't want their tools spying on them, and making their private information available to thieves or even industrial competitors. Somehow, the spying has now become acceptable (through EULA's), and even common practice. They said that the 1990's was the "wild-west" era of the Internet. Today's era must be the "dystopian" era.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  8. non-isolated third-party cookies are data trojans by lambsonic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Toolbars are just the tip of the iceberg. All major browsers are malware because they don't isolate cookie storage (or all storage, really) between origin domains, breaking the same-origin policy. Third-party cookies then become data trojans. Intent is important here. It isn't just a vulnerability, but a design flaw continued by the fact that all major browser development is funded by advertising companies.

    See for yourself how Mozilla refuses to fix a security vulnerability that is enabling billions to be made from stolen user data: Bugzilla bug 565965

    --
    # make clean sig
  9. Re:When Does Software Start Becoming Malware? by war4peace · · Score: 0

    ...such as bugs?

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  10. Does functionality match description? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Does it do what it is supposed (and documented/advertised) to do, and nothing else? Probably not malware.

    Does it do all kinds of stuff that it isn't documented as doing (especially if it does it unasked)? Probably malware.

    And yes, I regard programs that call home looking for updates -- if they haven't asked for and received permission to do that -- to be a (mild) form of malware, although their benefits might outweigh that.

  11. DiceToolbar? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Is this article posting Dice's way to introduce the Dice Toolbar?

  12. Re:Sounds a lot like systemd. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shots fired

  13. Re: When Does Software Start Becoming Malware? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See above. YES. If the author commits code that he knows is buggy and will cause problems. It then becomes malware.

  14. How do you define "malicious"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How do you define the word "malicious"? Let me give you a case study. There is a popular Linux desktop environment called GNOME. Version 2 was very much respected and loved. But version 3 had a lot of hipster influence and they ruined the UI, making GNOME 3 very difficult to use for many people, especially power users. Now maybe the hipsters who broke GNOME 3 did not set out to cause harm. But their "make it easy for new users" philosophy had the same effect as "ruin it for power users", and their "make it work on mobile devices" philosophy had the same effect as "ruin it for desktop users". So my user experience suffers and so does the user experience of many other GNOME power users. We suffered harm because of the bad UI changes. GNOME 3 does lots of things that we users weren't expecting or didn't want and we feel like we can't trust it any longer. Does that make it the "malicious malware" that you speak of?

    1. Re:How do you define "malicious"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah. I considered GNOME to be the WindowsME of the Linux world since the early days. Not malware, just poorly designed and implemented.

    2. Re:How do you define "malicious"? by Phreakiture · · Score: 1

      How do you define the word "malicious"?

      I think you have to be setting out to cause harm in order for it to count as malicious. As such, I would concede that GNOME made a mistake, but I would think it hyperbolic to say that they that GNOME 3 is malicious.

      I think if you want to call something malicious, you have to have set out in the first case with intentions to subvert the user's sovereignty over their own property. Install something I didn't ask for and would have specifically rejected? Malicious. Make it difficult to opt out? Malicious. Report my local drive searches that are none of your business? Malicious. Lock me out of content I bought? Malicious. Bloat my phone with a bunch of apps I can't install? Malicious. Make a dumb-ass design mistake? Dumb-assed, but not malicious.

      To conflate bad design with malice dilutes the discussion of things that genuinely are malicious -- that genuinely mean us harm.

      --
      www.wavefront-av.com
  15. When Windows - Windows 10? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Software is malware when:

    .
    - it does things to your computer that you did not ask it to do

    - it downloads software you did not ask it to download

    - it gathers data from your computer and sends it to distant servers without your knowledgeable permission (agreeing to a fine-print multi-page EULA is not knowledgeable permission)

  16. When is it malicious? by Maximilianop · · Score: 1

    I will go by the definition of malicious as "characterized by malice; intending or intended to do harm"
    Oracle has the intent of causing harm by installing the ASK toolbar? Yes -> malware, No -> not malware.
    ASK has the intent of causing harm with the toolbar? Yes -> malware, No -> not malware.

    Buuuuuuut....
    I will also go by the definition of pernicious as "having a harmful effect, especially in a gradual or subtle way" To bring up a new classification perniciousware (or pernware)
    Is ASK toolbar causing a gradual, subtle harmful effect on the user's computer? I don't think it's possible to answer no to this question. For me it's of course, at the very least by consuming resources (disk space, memory, cpu time) on unwanted software. So it's pernware
    Is Oracle causing a gradual, subtle harmful effect on the user's computer by including the ASK toolbar, specially when it's the default installer behavior to install it? Yes (not no here either)-> Java installer is pernware.


    Both Malicious and Pernicious definitions supplied by Google search :)


    As a side note, I would say most big players are having serious pernicious behaviour on software distribution. By automatically configuring the startup of their apps/services without asking; bundling software which has little to nothing to do with the provided one (i.e: Flash including an antivirus...) etc. And ofc the well known un readable by general layman EULAs which gives them superpowers to do mostly anything they want with YOUR computer, software, and data.
    Worst thing is. The smaller players uses these as excuses to do the same, and people has "accostumed" to this, and pay no longer any notice. Opening wide breaches in most security and allowing anyone with malicious intent to do anything they want...

    --
    The Universe is shrinking all around my head.
    1. Re:When is it malicious? by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you need to use "pernicious". As far as I'm concerned, somebody who attempts to use a position of power or specialized knowledge to trick me into behaving against my own interests is being malicious. In this case, they are doing me harm by appropriating something that's mine for their own use.

      My computer doesn't own anything. So they aren't stealing my computer's resources. They are stealing my resources.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    2. Re:When is it malicious? by Maximilianop · · Score: 1

      What I meant (and failed) to say, is that maliciousness must be taken into account when a software is to be classified as Malware. Viruses => Malware. Cracks, Keygens, etc => Malware. Yes, their intent is to violate security algorithms. Even if some of us benefit from it. Spyware (Including invisible proxies, keyloggers, etc) => Can both be malware, or just pernicious. Or even beneficial. Depends on intention and use. I find it very hard to believe Oracle would have the intent of wasting your computing resources and giving you a hard time by bundling the ASK toolbar in the Java Installer. I believe their intent is to earn money with sponsors. Yet it is pernicious behavior, since it non intently causes you harming. I keep repeating the example from the OP, but this is the same for mostly everything. Clarification on beneficial spyware (before the flaming starts): I find it useful when the application generates a crash log and allows me to send this report to the software maker. This behavior can be classified as spyware, since it's actually recording my footprint in the application. But (hopefully) with the beneficial intent of improving the software.

      --
      The Universe is shrinking all around my head.
  17. The second is does something for THEIR benefit by gurps_npc · · Score: 5, Insightful
    rather than the customer's benefit, without making it very clear and expressly asking permission.

    Putting anything on my computer for your benefit without making absolutely sure I know what is going on, is MALWARE.

    Or will you let me put a key logger on your PC in order to 'ensure quality'.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  18. Software is malware when by Navarre · · Score: 1

    ...it's called iTunes.

    1. Re:Software is malware when by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hurr durr! I hate Appple!

  19. easy. by epyT-R · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When it:
    1. Installs without permission
    2. makes any unnecessary network connections
    3. tracks the user and uploads any data not relevant to functionality (with or without permission, mandatory or not)
    4. injects code into the bootloader, filesystem, or anywhere else that's not strictly necessary
    5. localfunction/desktop software that requires the user to 'log on' to a vendor portal and/or has 'dead man' switches that require subscriptions (adobe suite)
    6. abuses system GUI conventions (skinned applications)
    7. is bundled with irrelevant 3rd party plugins, addons, or extensions for marketing purposes (browser search toolbars, apple itunes/quicktime on windows etc)

    1. Re:easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      7. is bundled with irrelevant 3rd party plugins, addons, or extensions...

      When applied to legislation, the above is an excellent description of a rider amendment.

    2. Re:easy. by jafac · · Score: 1

      "unnecessary" is a very squishy term.

      Microsoft might think that it's completely necessary to collect your personal preference information, in order to provide ontological context for the desktop AI assistant. Or to give their developers more information when they're troubleshooting application crashes. It's offloading data from your machine, for "distributed processing" - data that is shared with applications running on their server, or even going to analysis by their developers. These uses may sound perfectly benign. And they quite possibly are. I think what most users (including me) are objecting to, is that the nature of this data, and that it is being passed outside of our physical possession (and legal control), is that we lose control over how that data is used or misused. Even if we "agreed" to it in the EULA - we're not being given a choice, or if there IS a choice, it's being made too difficult or obscure to opt out, and that unease is creeping further and further.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    3. Re:easy. by allo · · Score: 1

      Firefox? 2, 3, 6, 7. Maybe 5, if you count firefox accounts and pocket as "requires" (for some of the functionality)

  20. When.... by mark-t · · Score: 1

    When the software changes how some other software that is already installed on the computer behaves when the user did not expressly indicate that they desired it, it is malware.

    It is insufficient to conclude that the user desires how such software might modify the behavior of other software when it is bundled by default with with yet another piece of software that the user did express intent to want to use . In many ways, such software would resemble a trojan.

  21. when it does anything w/o telling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A good example of this is the recent update to Dropbox that changed my Autorun/play settings to transfer everything to the Dropbox folder. WTF? I didn't authorize that, in fact, I had Autorun/Play disabled using a GPO. The fact that Dropbox felt they were entitled to change a GPO applied systemwide setting makes them as evil as microsoft in my books and I've told them that it's a good way to have a lawsuit filed under the Computer Misuse act since I do run Windows Pro and have a number of GPO's created to solve what I consider security issues. As part of the note to them, I've actually consulted a Tech Lawyer familiar with the Computer Misuse Act and hired them to investigate whether we'd have any standing under that law for suing them but haven't heard back from them yet.

    What we need to do is begin using the same laws they'd use to voice our displeasure about these toolbars and other unwanted crapware against the very companies doing it. Make it cost them any profit they make by everyone filing an individual lawsuit and not ask for a class action. The damn lawyers make all the money and we the victims are screwed, blued and tattooed all over again.

    1. Re:when it does anything w/o telling by timmyf2371 · · Score: 1

      Suing a company under the Computer Misuse Act would require a private prosecution under criminal law and would probably cost a lot of money. You would also have to prove 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.

      You would certainly be able to file a claim, alleging a tort (England/Wales) or delict (Scotland), which would be decided on the balance of probabilities.

      (IANAL but I did work for one for a couple of years).

      --

      Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (P)anic
  22. Grayware by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    Grayware, also known as PUPs (Potentially Unwanted Programs). It's these programs that may not be malware in of themselves in terms of causing direct damage within their own code, but rather act as a conduit to other forms of malvertisements. For example, Adobe Flash or JRE would be, or rather should be called a form of Grayware.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:Grayware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm opposed to this term (PUP) since it's not honest. There's no way that something like the ask toolbar can be called "potentially unwanted", a more accurate description would be "universally unwanted". On the other hand malware carrying applications like Java, Flash, CutePDF, Chrome... etc aren't usually unwanted to the user who installed them but they're still malicious. Maybe there's room for a distinction, but I don't really see how that would be useful for making policy decisions (for example should a firewall make a different choice for the ask toolbar executable being loaded by itself or it being included with java?)

      Even if we decide to start stripping the malware payload it's likely that these will start being loaded independently, or obscured by signatures approved by a top level authority like symantec. It's time to start holding the guilty to some consequences even if it means that unskilled users need help to download an uninfected distribution.

    2. Re:Grayware by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Chrome itself is a Potentially Unwanted Program.

  23. Easy one by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    When it's written by Symantec?

    Think I'm kidding? Ever try to REMOVE Symantic "antivirus" crap?

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:Easy one by ITRambo · · Score: 1

      Symantec has an app for that. Really, they do. It beats spending an hour manually deleting every Norton and Symantec registry entry.

    2. Re:Easy one by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Yes, I have. And I almost always use their removal tool first. Same as with McAfee. Never uninstall from Control Panel. And it's true, sometimes their uninstall tool doesn't even get it all.

    3. Re:Easy one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Years ago, I worked in a shop. I had someone bring in a computer to replace Norton with Kaspersky, and I ran the uninstall tool. Six months later, the customer came back bloody fuming, because Norton had reloaded itself. This time, I ran the tool, then went through the drive (plugged into another computer) and forcibly removed the executable and the folder, booted back into it, ran CCleaner and Spybot to track down any registry issues. Took about two hours, but I did finally get it. I think. Didn't see her back in again.

    4. Re:Easy one by chaosdivine69 · · Score: 1

      When Microsoft gives it away for free?

  24. When? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When it gets a Microsoft logo on the box.

  25. Re:Sounds a lot like systemd. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have been seeing a lot of hate on Systemd online...can you explain (or direct me to a link that does) why it's so hated?

  26. Defining obscenity by istartedi · · Score: 2

    This is just like the define obscenity problem. You know it when you see it.

    Windows "telemetry". Malware--and after years of zealots on this site tossing that around and me disagreeing, this is not something I say lightly.

    --
    For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
  27. Re:When Does Software Start Becoming Malware? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So when a user doesn't realize that printing consumes ink, all software that can print can be classified as malware?

  28. When it has any of the following characteristics: by danbob999 · · Score: 1

    1. ads
    2. tries to lure you into installing additional, non-wanted software (such as bundling McAfee with Flash Player, or Safari with iTunes, or the ask toolbar)
    3. Has a nag screen (WinZIP "I agree")
    4. its sole purpose is to spy on you (the ask toolbar again fall into that category)

  29. window.name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With Chrome, when you disabled third-party cookies, and the browser use "window.name" to trace you.

  30. 2 things that come to mind now by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

    1. If it installs without my permission
    2. If it ignores me when I turn off certain settings.

    Not that I can think of anything that meets those. ;)

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  31. It's easy to define by rossz · · Score: 1

    If it does something that a reasonable user would not expect, it is malware. I don't care if it's documented because those bastards will bury their evil deeds in twenty pages of legalese.

    --
    -- Will program for bandwidth
  32. When does software become maware? by Streetlight · · Score: 1

    Answer: When it's Windows 10.

    --
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
  33. Only an idiot would not know this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously? ANY AND ALL software that is bundled with a legitimate download is malware. Java still pushes Yahoo malware in their installer, and Flash still tries to either install CrapAfee, or Chrome, considering I didn't ask for that, it it crapware, malware, junkware, etc. Any and every ad injecting piece of software is malware. Any crap like WaJam, Bikiniland, or ask toolbar is malware.

    It really doesn't take a genius to know where the line needs to be drawn.

  34. Re:Sounds a lot like systemd. by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    The above rant brought to you by a malware author.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  35. Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If the software serves anyone other than the user of the device it's running on, then it's malware.

  36. When we no longer have a choice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The simple answer to this is when we cant choose how the software behaves. If I can't choose weather or not to install something then your application most likely contains malware. When i cant uninstall it, close it, or reject it it is malware. When it interferes with my operation of my computer it is most likely malware. If you have to trick me or use psychology to get me to install it then it is definitely malware.

    Basically if I don't choose or have a choice in having your software on my PC then it is malware.

  37. Ask and Oracle by DougReed · · Score: 1

    The Ask toolbar is not a gray area. It's malware. Oracle knows it's malware, but they don't care. I don't even believe Talos security researchers are confused about the Ask Toolbar. They are simply afraid to go against a 600 lb. Gorilla in the industry. It takes Microsoft to force Oracle to do the right thing.

    1. Re:Ask and Oracle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Ask toolbar is not a gray area. It's malware.

      Exactly. The users don't want it - they install it anyway. Malevolent behaviour - malware.

  38. Infinity Popup Toolkit by O-Deka-K · · Score: 1

    There are a lot of posts about bundled software being installed by default (like toolbars), but this is just the example from the article's intro. The article is actually about the "Infinity Popup Toolkit". This is not an application that you install on your PC - it's a bunch of JavaScript and Flash code that runs from a web page. Its purpose is to bypass your popup/ad blocker and security controls so that it can show you popup ads.

    The question was whether this should be considered malware, since the definition of malware is somewhat vague. The conclusion was that it clearly is malware and should be blocked. This is seems quite obvious, since the software's intention is to ignore your wishes (blocking popups) in order to show you ads. It's quite clear that no one would WANT to run this software, because if they wanted to see popups (which is no one ever), then they wouldn't turn on their popup/ad blocker in the first place.

  39. Gray zones... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The current Flash installer, Java updater, any program that push some other un-related (from a purely technical point of view, not a business agreement point of view) piece of software that is generally seen as an hassle for the user on the receiving end.

    I mean, how many people stopped using IE because of all those useless toolbars (ask and others)?
    How many calls to tech support or close relative geeks to ask how to remove that McFee trial that will sometimes install alongside the latest Flash update?

    Run time environments of all kind of software should be held to higher standards, because of their central role in the computing environment... I have personally removed Flash and Java from my work computer, I just avoid the sites/software that require them (I had to leave Flash on the HTPC because there are still content sites that require that garbage and I am not the lone user of this other machine).

    This is not even only about gathering personal data, any software comes with bugs, potential security threats or just annoying registration pop-ups... distributing third-party software is not something that should be taken lightly.

  40. Re:When Windows - Windows 10? by The+Raven · · Score: 1

    While I largely agree, the issue is not quite as black and white as you paint.

    There are something around 2 Billion users with Windows installed on their computer. Regardless of your personal opinion about updates, they should be enabled by default, with no user prompt asking them at install time if they want updates. This is the same argument for mandatory immunization; the species as a whole benefits from herd immunity. If you are arguing against automatic updates, and malware-scanning-by-default, then I think you have a fundamental confusion about how the Internet will survive when infected devices are counted in the billions rather than the millions. Regardless of your distaste for the business practices of companies like Adobe and Oracle, their auto-updaters save the world billions in damages by reducing the number of vulnerable users.

    There are other areas where best practices should not be up for debate by the user. My car doesn't ask me if I want to use my ABS brakes when I stop, nor does it stop dinging at me if I drive without a seatbelt on. You may value your personal freedom to choose, but society at large benefits when fewer people crash or die. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.

    --
    "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
  41. Simple definition of "malware" right here by ihtoit · · Score: 1

    1. Software that is installed without the fully informed consent of the user.
    2. Software that performs previously unknown or other functions not specifically alluded to, in a repeatable manner.
    3. Software that performs functions nonconducive to the secure functionality of a host computer system.
    4. Software that installs other software without the fully informed consent of the user.
    5. Software that communicates with other hosts without the fully informed consent of the user.
    6. Software that degrades the performance of the host system with no clear benefit to the user.

    Examples and notes:
    1. sideloaders such as the Ask Toolbar and other Browser Helper Objects (Bonzi Buddy and Gator spring to mind) which are bundled with software that you actually ask for, such as when you download installers from SOURCEFORGE and CNET.
    2. Such as when Microsoft disabled SSL3 by default in the February 2015 IE11 Security Rollup rather than fix the SSL3 vulnerability.
    3. Such as when software opens a port through the firewall and leaves it open (sorry no examples spring immediately to mind but I have known this to happen).
    4. See #1.
    5. Microsoft's "security" updates that are actually CEIP and other telemetry daemons.
    6. Full-on antivirus packages that absolutely HAVE to scan EACH and EVERY file, library, script, document and bitmap on opening! Not sure if the ones that HAVE to run a full scan in the background when the system starts up is worse but that can be demonstrated to increase waiting time for a usable desktop from a couple minutes to several HOURS.

    --
    Political debates have me rolling my eyes so much I think I got optical whiplash. I should sue. - Foamy The Squirrel
  42. Re:non-isolated third-party cookies are data troja by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is also the fingerprint aspect as well. Visit eff.org's Panopticlick with vitually any web browser, and it will almost always have a unique fingerprint. If web browser makers actually gave a rat's ass about security, they would have an identical add-on, font path, and browser type as everyone else across the board.

  43. When doing something not Prima facie without askin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When doing something not Prima facie without asking.

  44. Re:When Windows - Windows 10? by trawg · · Score: 1

    - it does things to your computer that you did not ask it to do

    Like a bug?

    - it downloads software you did not ask it to download

    Like all Google software that auto-updates?!

    - it gathers data from your computer and sends it to distant servers without your knowledgeable permission (agreeing to a fine-print multi-page EULA is not knowledgeable permission)

    This is a good one though.

  45. actually... by jjeffries · · Score: 1

    Tuesday.

  46. Re:Sounds a lot like systemd. by ewibble · · Score: 1

    There is a difference between software that tracks, and collects information about you and redirects you to sights in order to gather advertising revenue, and software that implements functionality in a way that you don't agree with. When you implement something you have to choose a way implement it, some people may not agree with that implementation but does make it malware, choices have to be made. Systemd may have been the wrong choice but I don't believe it was a bad choice made out of malice, or a desire to make money of its users.

  47. It's who benefits by Macdude · · Score: 1

    Malware is any software that functions to benefit a third party rather than the user.

    If your installer/updater is installing some app/toolbar/etc in addition to the application I want it to install -- that's malware.

    If your installer/app/updater is changing settings in my browser or any other application on my system -- that's malware.

    I want to write a letter, if your "letter writing app" is sending a copy of the letter or meta-data about the letter or my writing of the later to a third party -- that's malware.

    If I'm playing your off-line single-player game and you're collecting data on how I play it -- that's malware.

    If I'm playing your on-line multi-player game and you're doing anything with the data I'm sending you other than sending it to the other players -- that's malware.

    If your search engine is doing anything with the search request I'm sending you other than fulfilling my search request -- that's malware.

    If your app is displaying ads -- that's malware (unless it's an ad locator application).

    --
    "Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
  48. To antivirus software... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if the program is written in AutoIt:

    AutoIt and Malware

  49. JavaScript by pigsycyberbully · · Score: 0

    Web browser and system architecture (CPU) operating system plug-ins screen size. Those are all collected by Windows anti malware or any virus scanner product. The antifraud option in web browsers tracks every website you visit. The majority of Windows software for online games are classed as PUPs. Voice recognition software for windows and Apple systems collect's speech patterns randomly to improve their products speech recognition rate. JavaScript is a nuisance and Microsoft Windows is spyware with a load of spyware products like anti malware paint programs and all the other registration key software. If your system doesn't have a password encrypted hard drive with a password encrypted home directory then it isn't worth having. All user agent strings should be: .

  50. Re:non-isolated third-party cookies are data troja by lambsonic · · Score: 1

    Yes, that too. They can better standardize their headers, and/or they can add some noise to the signal to throw off the fingerprinting, which can be done without any kind of concerted effort.

    Just mentioning this for completeness: there is also the IP address, but that has other solutions, and isn't a web browser's responsibility.

    --
    # make clean sig
  51. Re:Sounds a lot like systemd. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For starters check out this list of complaints.
    Some of them might not matter to you or might be already corrected but surely some of them will stick.

    I was convinced I don't want systemd on my computer when I've read Poettering calling su "a really broken concept" as a a rationale for making a su-replacement a part of systemd.
    Other red flags I see are the scope of what systemd and its components are responsible for, the inability to get rid of it from most distros that adopted it and sudden disappearance of distros that are not based on it.
    Add to it the hostility towards anyone complaining about it and you end up with a picture of a suspicious software that you probably don't want to run on your hardware.

  52. Pretty much... by ThatsDrDangerToYou · · Score: 1
    .. as soon as I install it.

    Next question!

  53. Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Malware is software that takes any action on the user's computer that was not expressly authorized by the user.

  54. When it specifically acts against you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Windows 10.

    Systemd.

    Etc.

  55. When it's FireFox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...and you turn off automatic updates, you're running version 24, and they still block flash... hmm..

  56. Subject because Slashdot is Bitchy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    WHen it starts installing stuff on your computer without asking. Exhibit: Windows 10, taking up huge amounts of bandwidth and dropping up to 6 to 10 GB of "install" files when you never asked for it.

  57. When it does anything you wouldn't want it to do. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Software becomes malware whenever it does anything the user, had he been given an informed choice, would have chosen to reject.

    (This includes surreptitious installation, hidden misfeatures, information leakage, etc.)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  58. Microsoft as by SomePoorSchmuck · · Score: 1

    Even though many users objected to the inclusion of the Ask.com toolbar, Oracle only recently discontinued including it in Java downloads after Microsoft changed their definition of malware which then classified the Ask.com toolbar as malware."

    Um, like how Microsoft by default makes Bing your search engine in IE, Firefox, Chrome, and Safari? And changes your homepage to be MSN.com?
    Like that?

    So does Microsoft consider Microsoft to be malware?

    --

    Hollywood, Television, has become the dream machine. We need to take that back; each of us is a Dream Machine
  59. You're looking at what the security biz calls PUPs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Potentially Unwanted Programs - they neatly fill that gray area

  60. Re:Sounds a lot like systemd. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Systemd is actually the best defense I've seen against Linux malware. Systemd has very effectively prevented my Linux systems from even booting fully. Obviously, it's much more difficult for my systems to get compromised when they're pretty much unusable because systemd got stuck so early on in the boot process!

  61. Re:Sounds a lot like systemd. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Odd, I thought open source was free as in speech, yet here you are trying to oppress dissenting views.

    It is you that needs to "shut your whiny little fucking mouth" and accept that other people have opinions and needs, and your choices don't fit them both.

  62. Simple and more complex by cfalcon · · Score: 1

    I know it when I see it. But it's an interesting question.
    The simplest is "it does something the user doesn't want". But this gets bogged down in questions.

    I propose that any software that fits (1) AND (2) is malware, *no exceptions*.

    1- The software does ANY of the following:
    - Hides its presence from the user (registry malarkey, malicious RAM stuff, etc)
    - Tricks the user into being installed (packaged in other software, straight up virus piggyback, checkbox you must unclick)
    - Is inside a package via sponsorship, deception, or coercion of the pacakger, as an addition to an actual product (including most of the download.com stuff)
    - Fights user attempts to uninstall (including disabling unrelated features, reinstalling itself, etc)

    *Sponsorship should handle all cases where a packager includes an element in the package that is not why you chose to get the package. Coercion includes, say, a government or company that forces by law or other method to include code in such a package, and deception involves a packager who is not aware of the malware they are packing along.

    2- The software does EITHER of the following:
    - Is not strictly needed for the operation the user intends, offering a data leak (personal data, envelope information about user activity) or unarguably malicious feature (blackmail, data deletion, display of advertisements) instead of its advertised or apparent purpose.
    - Is installed entirely in secret and from an activity that should not result in software installation.

    By this definition, you could argue that some elements of Windows 10 qualify (and they probably do), that the Ask.com garbage pile qualifies (and it definitely does), along with drive by downloads. This excludes a game that shows you advertisements, but includes one that installs an advertising thing on your desktop.

    What am I missing? Gimme some false positives or false negatives with this pls.

  63. It's complicated by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

    There are a number of recurring themes I see here, and I see examples that muddy the waters further.

    "Installs without user consent"
    Counterargument: I install a game from Steam. A copy of the required version of MS VC++ Runtime is installed with a /v/qn switch, so I never see any form of "consent", but I've consented to install a game that requires this runtime version in order to function. Malware?

    "Sends data to a third party without user consent"
    What *exactly* lives in the usage data that Microsoft gets? It's unclear, but I'd like to think that if Microsoft realized that 90% of its users clicked 'start' at least five times a day, the people in the planning meetings for Windows 8 would have had a hell of a lot more leverage. If Microsoft got data that read, "user 1363959 clicked 'start' a total of 418 times in the last 30 days", I'm fine with that. If Microsoft gets data that says "Voyager529 clicked 'start' 418 times, and then typed the following 15 sentences...", I'd be less okay with that. Is the issue here the fact that, even if I look at the data dumps, they're not terribly user readable the ultimate problem? Would something like the Steam Hardware Survey be viable for Microsoft? Is "allow telemetry [accept/decline]" enough either way?

    "Is bundled with other software"
    Ghostscript is bundled with PDFCreator, and it's wonderful. AVG Secure Search is questionable - it ultimately shows Google search results, along with different sets of ads, but it at least gives a 'safe/unsafe' indicator which is probably a good idea for many people. Many Slashdotters have Chrome installed, is Chrome 'not malware' when installed from Google.com/chrome, but malware when installed with CCleaner? Comodo Dragon has a few extensions bundled in to assist in safe browsing. Malware? The aforementioned VC++ Runtime - malware? Bundling alone is not enough.

    Conversely, "not-bundled" isn't a dead giveaway, either. Cyberlink's installers of paid-for software, by default, changes your default autoplay settings and has a super-difficult-to-disable 'feature' of regular pop-up notifications letting you know that you don't have their latest, greatest, kitchen-sink edition...malware?

    "Buggy code"
    This goes hand-in-glove with the concept of "Microsoft deciding what is and what isn't". The Ask toolbar was flagged as a result of working as intended. Having buggy code is a matter of human error and is (hopefully) intended to be rectified.

    Here's how I would judge whether a piece of software is malware or not:

    1. Explain what your program is intended to do, and who gets copies of any data the software is privvied to, to a five year old. Are you uneasy with writing that description on the front page of your website?
    2. Does the CEO of the company have this software installed on his/her computer? Did he/she do so by hitting 'next' repeatedly?
    3. During the installation, were there any questions unrelated to the nature of the installation of the code you wrote? If so, was the nature of its requirements reasonably explained, and was any form of opt-out clearly labeled (i.e. not using quadruple-negatives to confuse users who would otherwise intend to opt-out)?
    4. Does your software include an uninstaller that leaves the computer in a state that is indistinguishable from a computer that never had it installed in the first place?

  64. Re:Sounds a lot like systemd. by gweihir · · Score: 1

    While I agree on systemd as the default being utterly demented for Debian and a complete violation of the principle that Debian stable must be rock-solid, you can replace it with sysvinit after installation, or even before if you give the installer some configuration.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  65. Re:Sounds a lot like systemd. by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Hehehehehe. Well, sane init-systems usually manage to give you a shell so you can find out what is wrong, but systemd finds that this is beneath it as you have obviously insulted its creator by using it not exactly as was ordained.

    And that is the real core of the criticism on systemd: It is a misanthropic POS, that does not respect its users one bit. Resembles its creator in that way.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  66. Simply put... by Dracolytch · · Score: 1

    Malware is software I don't want it on my machine and cannot uninstall easily.

    "Easily", in this case, being using the mechanism appropriate for that particular OS. Uninstall a program dialog / apt-get uninstall / whatever.

    That's it. Crap I don't want, and can't get rid of easily. Yes, that means I may call IE is malware (it increases surface attack area on my machine, and I cannot remove it), while someone else does not.

    ~D

    --
    This sig has been enciphered with a one-time pad. It could say almost anything.
  67. Re: When Does Software Start Becoming Malware? by war4peace · · Score: 1

    How do you determine whether the author KNEW the code was buggy?

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  68. From the start. That's when! by iq145 · · Score: 1

    Programmers and software creators will do whatever benefits them the most (and makes them money). It's a safe bet someone is paying someone to help get their spyware and other adware type crap onto our PCs in any way possible!