Are Non-Technical Certifications Worth Earning?

Nerval's Lobster writes: Everybody knows that certain technical certifications can boost your career. For developers and others, though, is it worth earning non-technical certifications such as the PMP (Project Management Professional), CRISC (which certifies that you're good at managing risk)? The short answer, of course, might be, 'Yes, if you plan on moving into management, or something highly specialized.' But for everybody else, it's hard to tell whether certain certifications are worth the time and money, on the nebulous hope that they'll pay off at some point in the future, or if you're better off just focusing on the technical certifications for certain hard skills.

Comments

HR likes MBA PHD masters

[Joe_Dragon]

HR likes MBA PHD masters

Re:HR likes MBA PHD masters

[Falconnan]

Actually, if you are going to pursue one of these, ask yourself whether the branch of the industry you are heading towards embraces said cert. It makes sense to get ITIL Foundations if you want to work for companies that go down that route. This will be true for PMP, higher degrees, etc. Getting an industrial management cert might make sense for a welder... not so sure it would for an underwater basket weaver.

No

[DesertBlade]

What I find interesting is that most people who earn certificates and then place all those acronyms after their name are the ones that have difficulty adjusting to the real world. Critical thinking is more important than certificates. Most certifications teach you a specific way to do things and not to go off the rails.

Re:No

[Bearhouse]

Most of the really good PMs I know are not PMP, PRINCE2 or whatever certified. They're too busy earning money running projects, mostly real big ones.
Equally, you'll find plenty of examples of both public and private-sector multi-million projects that were "managed" into a smoking hole in the ground by "certified professionals".
I'm sure that plenty of the PMP/PRINCE2 guys are really good; but all the ones I've met have been hopeless.

Re:No

[nightcats]

Could scarcely agree more fervently, and I've been one of these "non-technical" technicians (BA, PM, TW, QA) for well over 20 yrs. I once sat through a meeting at American Express in which a PMP spent the first ten minutes (at least) going on about her green belt in 6-sigma and deftly receiving and expanding the plaudits that were returned to her. As the project went on I realized I had been placed under the governance of a secretary -- no it was worse than that, she was a niggling functionary; if the app could have been coded with triplicate carbon paper forms she would have been in her ultimate glory.

Bottom line: The best geeks I've ever worked with don't just think outside the box; they feel beyond the box. Creativity is about pushing and penetrating boundaries; and it's the best experience you can have at work. Creativity can't be taught or learned in a certification course; it can only be invited, in sort of the same way as you'd ask a woman out on a date.

Re:Considering I get about six hundred...

[Anonymous Coward]

I love telling them that I don't need a certification because my PiMP hand is already strong. That confuses the hell out of the Indians that call me several times per day.

What Kind of "Certification"?

[Irate Engineer]

There are thousands of different types of certifications, so many that most are unheard of and useless.

As a matter of fact, if you send me $100, I will certify you as being a online purchasing specialist. I'll even print you a nice Word 97 template certificate of completion to hang on your basement wall!

I don't have a snazzy acronym for this certificate filled in yet; I'm trying to find descriptive words that will fit the acronym A.S.S.H.A.T.

This should certainly make your resume memorable to future hiring managers.

Re:What Kind of "Certification"?

[Austerity Empowers]

Administration Specialist in Standardizing Hardware Assisted Technology

It sounds like a certification, but by definition means that you are an anointed manager and certified bloviator of ... pretty much anything you want to be, including pointy sticks if that's your gig.

Re:What Kind of "Certification"?

[rmdingler]

A special snowflake hates a thaw?

Re:What Kind of "Certification"?

[Irate Engineer]

Administration Specialist in Standardizing Hardware Assisted Technology

Well played sir. I owe you a cut of my $100 fees.

Six Sigma, Anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

After discharging the 90% of Six Sigma Training that's either nonsense, or common sense, the rest is rather useful.

Re:Six Sigma, Anyone?

[Darinbob]

I saw someone put Six Sigma on their resume. The whole thing looked like immense amounts of padding. So ya, if you still have white space visible on your resume, then squeeze in some more useless certificates. And I include technical certificates in that category. In my experience I have seen lots of people who can not think outside of the curriculum, if the certificate didn't test on something then they can't deal with it. Most technical jobs require you to think outside the box, in fact all of real life requires this.

Re:Six Sigma, Anyone?

[Coren22]

I still have MCSE NT on my resume, because it shows that I can take the tests if needed, but I prefer knowledge to shiny paper.

Re:Sure why not?

[Meshach]

But, really, what are these certs worth to you?

Agreed. If your only goal is monetary then it may be hard to justify some certs. However if you are interested in the topic and actually want to learn the skill in question then any program is worth taking.

Who decides: HR or CEO or Manager

[WillAffleckUW]

It depends on who you ask.

HR incorrectly screens people, and thus prefers certifications, because they have no idea what they're doing in terms of real qualifications, so they get a list of "people in this industry with this profession will have these certifications" and then just look at those, instead of "can s/he do the job".

CEOs think they know what they need, but they also have no clue, so they just use the buzzwords and certifications they think will work. So if the CEO hires you after sitting next to you at a conference, it might mean nothing.

Managers actually tend to know what the job entails, so they know certifications frequently are useless, so they'll ask the hard questions that actually matter.

But, in the end, people hire other people who are like them, so it's more important that you look and act like the people hiring you, and they'll ignore your actual qualifications, anyway.

(sorry if I burst your bubble, but this is why tech firms are filled with mostly white and Indian guys who have certain hobbies, and sales firms are filled with golf players and football enthusiasts)

Re:Who decides: HR or CEO or Manager

[CCarrot]

HR incorrectly screens people, and thus prefers certifications,...

And thus believes that a PMP cert is a real thing. They are scams. I have never once heard PMP mentioned except in fraud or spam complaints. Companies like projmgtcoursetrainingsprograms.org are complete scams. PMP is a scam.

PMP courses from legitimate companies actually provide great tools for managing project uncertainty and variables. I've taken a level-1 course with a legitimate company, and found it very useful, even when I wasn't the one running the project...at least I could speak the lingo and knew why the PM wanted the data that they were asking for. I didn't go for for the full certification, but am considering it as I get more and more pushed into lead roles on projects.

Of course, if your company always scopes everything perfectly and right down to the nuts before the project proceeds, and everyone on your projects does exactly what the scope calls for in exactly the allotted time, and nobody has any bright ideas after the project has started ("but we really should do THIS while we're doing THAT, we're going to need it later anyway!"), and outside interference (read WEATHER) is not a risk factor...then I want to live in your candyland.

Maybe what's needed is for some sort of external accreditation of PMP courses, like they have for Universities? Sure, I can email for a Bachelor's degree in pretty much anything I want nowadays, but HR knows to check the accreditation status of "University of All Science Stuff" (affectionately known by the vast alumni body as "U-ASS"). Does the email spam devalue my own, actual B.Sc.Eng.? Not to a savvy hiring agent, but where can they go to check the accreditation status of PMP or similar certifications?

ROFLMAO!

[Giant Electronic Bra]

Ahhhh, yes.

The answer is PMP is a useful certification, but like every cert there's always a bunch of clowns that can pass the course but can't manage a wet paper bag. Experience and a good track record is always a much better indicator than a cert.

Re: ROFLMAO!

[Anonymous Coward]

To get a PMP you need to prove you've worked 4,500 hours (if you have Bachelor degree) on projects and they audit some applicants.

Re:PMP is a worthwhile certification

[WillAffleckUW]

Better to hire someone with a Bachelors in Business Accounting who has actually some experience in project management instead.

Yes

[penguinoid]

I'm a certified Lobster Boiler.

Most important certs for anyone...

[i.r.id10t]

The most important certs just about anyone can get that most will never put on a resume would be a First Aid/CPR/BLS course. If you are an outdoors person around bodies of water a lot, a lifeguard course wouldn't be too bad to have under your belt as well.

After that, certs really become more specialized training in whatever your work field is...

Took the PMP test

[tompaulco]

I took the PMP test from a company that was not the official PMP outfit. I passed it with no problem. Anybody that studies for a week or two could pass it. However, the real PMP class and test costs hundreds to thousands of dollars and there is continuing education associated with it. I did not consider it worth my time to pursue the actual PMP certification and upkeep as it would not have brought in an extra dime for me. However, if a company would pay for it, then why not?

Re:Took the PMP test

[Anonymous Coward]

The PMP exam can only be written at a licensed testing provider after your project management portfolio has been approved by the Project Management Institute (PMI). Therefore, you could not have taken the PMP "test" from "a company that was not the official PMP outfit". You may have written a test made from someone's coles notes version of a real test (e.g. a Testking type of test), or a completely unrelated test that someone slapped the words PMP on top of. Essentially the test you took may have been completely different from the actual PMP exam. The PMI is constantly modifying the database of questions as well, so two PMs certified in different years may answer different questions (though the subject matter and domains will generally be the same).

In my experience as a hiring manager, the PMP-certified PM has demonstrated they have a minimum understanding of project management and can communicate within the framework of the PMI. It doesn't mean they're good at PMing, but that's what the interview and references are for.

Never

[phantomfive]

Certifications are NEVER worth getting unless you learn something from them.
If you don't learn anything from them, it's a worthless cert, and you don't want to work for a company that respects it.

If you disagree with me, and think a cert is worth getting for 'respect' or something instead of learning, then you will probably like working for that kind of company.

Re: Never

[asliarun]

You have it backwards. The name should give you a hint too. A certification is meant to certify a certain skill or capability that you should already possess. It also certifies that you are aware of the process and formal rigor you are supposed to follow when you handle certain responsibilities.

Such as project management. A PMP certification for example certifies that you know how to handle various aspects of project management. It also certifies that you make the right judgment calls in handling various ambiguous situations.

While everyone on this thread is loving to hate PMP, the flip side is that i have seen many bright engineers and leads become project managers, handle some core aspects brilliantly, but completely ignore other aspects. Such as communication. Or establishing a change management process. Or failing to get the buy in of all stakeholders. Or even identifying all stakeholders and keeping them adequate in the loop and communicating to them.

A PMP also requires you to prove that you have a few thousand hours of project mgmt under your belt. They also audit you quite frequently to verify your claim by checking the references you provide.

And most PMPs are not even in the software industry. It is far more sought after and considered important in construction, civil engg, etc. In industries where you cannot dick around and screw up a big project because you, the project manager, are not even aware of the various things you need to consider. Being bright unfortunately is not enough in these situations. Things like workload buildup and identifying critical paths and dependencies and having a formal risk mitigation plan.. this is not fluff. If your cement mixer arrives and your people are not ready, you are incurring losses.

I am not glamorizing PMP. Yes, it has become a magic wand in some cases. But most of the replies make grand ill informed claims about how trashy PMP is. I beg to differ. It is a certification by a well established neutral body that does its due diligence. The trainers might be shady but the certification is not.

You can flame me now.

Re: Never

[phantomfive]

Most of your post is trying to explain why PMP is important. You do it by saying, "the person will have to learn X, the person will have to learn Y, the person will have to know Z." In other words, to show that the certification has value, you also show that a person can learn something by getting the cert.

Of course there are people who already have the skill.....should they get the certification? Usually those people already know if the cert is worth getting or not. They don't ask that question. Furthermore, for those people, a certification is not hard to get, spend a few hours taking the test, a few hundred dollars, no big deal, if they have to.

Re: Never

[asliarun]

You are oversimplifying this. Project management is not one skill. It is a collection of skills, techniques, adherence to certain processes and best practices.

Most people acquire these skills on the job, either hands on, or by getting mentored by others or by watching others or even through past failures.

But that could still mean that a technically skilled project manager is still lacking awareness of some aspects that she or he should be considering. Even simple things like doing effort estimation correctly. By doing it anonymously and via consensus for example (wideband delphi or planning poker) instead of making unilateral judgment calls on estimates. I mention this because i see technically strong managers often run roughshod over their team, sneer at the estimates their team provides or shame them publicly, mico manage the technical design, etc.

You can also do the agile equivalent of PMP and become a certified scrum master, but in all these cases, the certification is meant to test your awareness of project mgmt fundamentals.

Yes, they will ask you to drink their koolade a bit. PMP will ask you to read the PMBOK for example. But the certification is not meant to train. It is meant to be a forcing function for you to educate yourself on all these aspects.

The point remains though.. how is it a completely bogus endeavor? I buy the point that focusing solely on certifications during hiring is stupid. And a pmp will not make a technically weak person a great manager.

But that is only misuse of the certification. It still has value if used correctly.

Re: Never

[phantomfive]

You are oversimplifying this. Project management is not one skill. It is a collection of skills, techniques, adherence to certain processes and best practices.

Apparently PMP doesn't include reading comprehension, because you're attacking straw-men. Go back and read what I wrote, and see if you can come up with a more coherent response.

Re: Never

[asliarun]

Apparently PMP doesn't include reading comprehension, because you're attacking straw-men. Go back and read what I wrote, and see if you can come up with a more coherent response.

I will try to reword my response so that you are capable of understanding my straight-forward point.

Most of your post is trying to explain why PMP is important. You do it by saying, "the person will have to learn X, the person will have to learn Y, the person will have to know Z." In other words, to show that the certification has value, you also show that a person can learn something by getting the cert.

A certification does not teach, it certifies.

CERTIFY (transitive verb)
- attest or confirm in a formal statement.
"the profits for the year had been certified by the auditors"
synonyms: verify, guarantee, attest, validate, confirm, substantiate, endorse, vouch for, testify to;

- officially recognize (someone or something) as possessing certain qualifications or meeting certain standards.

The irony is thick here. You accuse me of a lack of reading comprehension skills, while you do not understand the meaning of the word, "certification".

You're trying to come up with some roundabout logic that a certification implies learning, or forces you to learn, but that is incorrect. It is subjective and may hold true for some. But I will repeat, a certification is not meant to teach. Technical certification or otherwise.

Of course there are people who already have the skill.....should they get the certification? Usually those people already know if the cert is worth getting or not. They don't ask that question. Furthermore, for those people, a certification is not hard to get, spend a few hours taking the test, a few hundred dollars, no big deal, if they have to.

In some cases, certifications are mandatory. Civil aviation for example. In most countries, an aircraft engineer (the guy who inspects your aircraft before it takes off) needs to be certified by a central civil aviation governance body. They get certified and licensed for a specific model of aircraft and have to periodically renew their license to continue to do their job. Regardless of what skills they possess or how many years they have been doing it.

If a certification is not hard to get, and if it adds value to your resume (or so you think), then I am not sure why someone would not get it. It sounds like a no-brainer. And in some ways, it the same argument that someone would make to get a college degree. And many would advice you to get it, even though the cost and time commitment are non-trivial.

The entire argument in this thread hinges around a "bottom of the barrel" argument. If you are being interviewed for a job by incompetents, or work in an oganization that values certification over skill, that is a different matter. However, these two aspects (organizations valuing certifications, and organizations valuing skills) are not mutually exclusive. There are many organizations that value both, and people who do not hold this easy to get certification, are at a disadvantage. Just as someone from a good school does enjoy some advantages even in good engineering oriented or dynamic organizations.

And by your logic, no-one should be required to get a driver's license, especially for those people who feel really confident of their driving skills.

And jeez man, you don't have to get antagonistic. You triggered me off, and I realize it in hindsight. So I guess I am too.

Re: Never

[phantomfive]

You're trying to come up with some roundabout logic that a certification implies learning, or forces you to learn,

No. I'm trying to come up with a metric that measures the value of getting a certification.

It's always spelled PiMP

[russotto]

Though the Prostitute Management Program certification might actually hold slightly more prestige.

Occam's Razor

[multimediavt]

Are Non-Technical Certifications Worth Earning?

The question was answered in the summary, "'Yes, if you plan on moving into management, or something highly specialized.'"

Really, what more is there to say?

Re:Occam's Razor

[DrRiAdGeOrN]

We had a hiring event on Thursday in the DC area, we ended up having about 175 PM types(non technical) and 25 technical types(10 or so with PMP), guess which ones go the phone calls..... I would only view a non technical to help supplement your technical ability and to help bridge the gap between the tech and non tech people. Frankly it was scary how many non technical types were after jobs at a tech based company.

Re:PMP is a worthwhile certification

[hackwrench]

Is it bad that I started reading that in Cave Johnson's voice?

Re:PMP - YES!

[CCarrot]

especially in giving you tools to estimate project progress

What? I had the classes and passed the test. We didn't talk at all about estimating project progress, much less what tools to use to do so.

Managing scope creep

If the course covered that, that would have been awesome. The last three startups I worked for died because of scope creep. We just couldn't get a product out the door. My PMP certification didn't prepare me at all for how to deal with that. Maybe that is something new that has been added.

Wow, I guess I didn't realize how good the course I took was, then. They covered project documentation, including Scope Change Approval forms, and described thoroughly why they are needed (and need to be signed off on prior to adopting). It may be the one concept that has been most helpful to me since the course, I have a blank sheet and have the requester identify what change is 'required', the justification, and the expected cost or time difference. Then I take it to my project sponsors/stakeholders, and it doesn't go in the project until the sponsors approve (and sign the form saying it's approved). It doesn't stop scope creep (I don't think anything can), but it certainly reduces the "ooh, ooh, we should do this!" requests.

Just making people stop and articulate why 'this' is a good idea sometimes makes them realize that it isn't, really.

Re:We have a Yes!

[phantomfive]

BTW, any time you are negotiating salary for a job, ask for a signing bonus. Ask for it after you come to an agreement on salary. At that point, sit silently for a bit, not smiling, then after thinking, ask something like, "It would make things so much easier if I could get a signing bonus. Can you help me with that?"

PMP is required for most project management jobs

[__roo]

Search your favorite job postings website for project manager jobs. Ten out of ten of them will say that a PMP certification is either required or preferred.

A few reasons employers look for a PMP certification: a) several years of professional project management experience are required in order to qualify to take the exam, b) it shows a certain level of commitment to furthering one's career as a project manager, and c) if someone has taken and passed the PMP exam, it means they're at least familiar with standard project management tools, techniques, and practices.

Tom me, those seem like reasonable reasons for adding the PMP certification as a requirement for a project manager job posting. But it definitely means that if you want to move your project management career forward, you should really consider the PMP certification.

PMP

[PopeRatzo]

I am a certified Mack Daddy.

Here is my graduation photo:

http://images1.laweekly.com/im...

Re:We have a Yes!

[redmid17]

This is patently terrible advice and will make your negotiations that much harder. Ask it for ahead of time. Otherwise they will hate you

Re:We have a Yes!

[phantomfive]

This is patently terrible advice and will make your negotiations that much harder.

You didn't understand, man. The negotiations for salary, etc are already over. There are no more negotiations to make harder. This is just, "oh, one more thing....."

Otherwise they will hate you

Who will hate you? I've never had anyone hate me for asking for a signing bonus. They hate me when I quit a year after getting hired.

Yes, dependent on your definition of "Worth"

[mtippett]

Although the articles mentions that there is a meaningful financial benefit to the certifications, the challenge is finding industries and companies that recognize and value the certifications. The companies that I have worked at (in particular software) the certifications would be mostly meaningless as a recognition of skill and understanding. Hardware, logistics, regulated companies will likely have a higher value in a PMP or a CRISC.

However, there is a secondary worth to these certifications as a professional. You may end up seeing the world differently. With practice you can begin to intuitively see elements of the certification in your daily professional life. This secondary insight will help you as a professional.

For example, developers with PMP and CRISC don't "pad" estimates, they estimate the risks and unknowns, something that a lot of regular developers don't do. They see estimates as ranges or with relative confidence, those levels of ranges help give better estimates to make better decisions.

The certifications help you indirectly as a professional. That said, you can still skip the certification and read the text books (like the PMBOK), but that won't necessarily fill in all the gaps you may have in understanding.

Re:We have a Yes!

[redmid17]

They can still pull the offer genius. It's terrible, terrible advice. If you were worth a signing bonus, you'd have been offered it or asked for it ahead of time.

Re:We have a Yes!

[phantomfive]

They can still pull the offer genius.

Very unlikely unless you're a lousy negotiator, giving them some kind of ultimatum or something.

If you were worth a signing bonus, you'd have been offered it or asked for it ahead of time.

Companies often have things like signing bonuses available, but don't offer them because they didn't need to.

Re:We have a Yes!

[redmid17]

Ask for it ahead of time and save yourself some trouble. Otherwise you're just aggravating people who have assumed the financial compensation was finalized. These people have hiring budgets and other factors. Seriously it's a terrible piece of advice and I say that as someone in a field where it wouldn't bat too much of an eye if they are willing to hire you.

Re:We have a Yes!

[phantomfive]

Ask for it ahead of time and save yourself some trouble.

Sure, if that works for you, go for it.

Otherwise you're just aggravating people who have assumed the financial compensation was finalized.

Ask for it before they do paperwork, before you leave the negotiating meeting.

Are TECHNICAL certifications worth earning?

[Tony Isaac]

I have a relative who got some kind of computer repair certification, but I don't want him anywhere near my computers! I don't have any special certifications, and I'm always the one explaining to him how to fix computers. Not all certifications are created equal, but many aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

Re:PMP is a worthwhile certification

[MrKaos]

Better to hire someone with a Bachelors in Business Accounting who has actually some experience in project management instead.

I studied PMP and PMBOK in my masters work and I find the cert to be quite useful. I think it is disappointing the amount of spamming that goes on around what is actually one of the most useful things, outside of programming, for a programmer to know.

It is not an easy certification to gain and the leadership roles imply a certain skill set that is beyond PMP itself that involve the development of emotional intelligence (or people hacking as I like to think of it). In my experiences it has proved to be the most useful in improving my ability to interact with people and waaaay outside of my comfort zone when I took it on.

So far it has had a very positive impact on my career.

Let me rephrase the question

[mwvdlee]

Are certifications for jobs you don't want worth earning?

Certs aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

[adolf]

I've moved a few times in the past year and a half.

After moving piles of certificates again during the last move, I realized that nobody had ever - once - asked if I was certified in X, Y, or Z. I also realized that every employer I've ever had that needed certification for X, Y, or Z in order to accomplish a thing, was willing to pay me to get said certification and (again) nobody ever asked afterward.

I looked at this pile of hard-earned paper and briefly considered buying a bulk box of frames from Alibaba and plastering them all over the walls around my desk, but then I realized that if I cared enough to do that, I would already be looking at a pile of framed certificates instead of a pile of loose paper.

We had a lovely bonfire not long after moving in here, and the certificates were part of the firestarters.

It's just paper. And paper doesn't get things done, people do.

(I don't miss them.)

Re:PMP is a worthwhile certification

[rioki]

Getting training is not the same as certification. Yes if you want to become a project manager, training is a good idea; but that is true for all field of work. The certification on the other hand is in my opinion nonsense. Basically all certification proves that you where able to sit down and learn the answers to a set of possible questions. It does not convey any skill in actually performing the task.

Re:Are TECHNICAL certifications worth earning?

[rjforster]

The people I've known who had the best technical skills had no certifications so on that basis I'd certainly say yes.
Another point is that I think any certification that is easy for me to get is a waste of time (a bit like clubs that would have Groucho Marx as a member). CISSP was trivial to pass but is a big deal at my place of work and that's the only reason I've got it.

ITIL a very good example

[ruir]

I was wondering what was all that interesting about companies asking for ITIL for a while until actually they made it mandatory to have it at the job. It just memorising a book from some english oldtards...the same that are making a clusterfuck about keeping gov IT at UK keeping on. Never had such worthless piece of paper.

Define "useful"

[bwcbwc]

If you're asking which certs give a high probability that the certificate holder can do the job, that's one thing. If you're asking which certs will get you on the short list for a hiring interview, that's another.

PMP may actually appear on both lists. I know that it appears on a lot of postings for Project Managers. And project mgmt isn't just managing Gantt charts. It's a whole sub-discipline under Industrial Engineering.

The big certs right now appear to be for security pros.

It depends if you know why you are doing it !

[franckyred]

Getting a certification / diploma, whatever prestigious is a path to disaster in a career. I know a lot of people who went in somewhat good MBA and yet failed. Not because their MBA sucked, but because they didn't knew why they did it. Wanting a "nice career" is NOT a path or a project. A lot of these certification just find people who stagnate and tell them, "Sign up, do it, and you'll be a manager earning XXX". But if your only reason is "my career is stagnating and I want a boost", then keep clear and invest the money instead (in stocks or real estate or whatever investment). On the other hand if you have a project in mind which is clear to you, then you can find a certification / diploma that will help you achieve it. The diploma doesn't count at all. It's what you learn and who you'll network with. I'll give you an example, two friends from the same prestigious european MBA : One did it with a purpose. When they had meetings with C-level executives doing talks, he was able to express his project and got hired with a big salary. The other did it because her career stagnated and she hoped a boost from the MBA. At the end, she went back to her former employer at the same position and with a lot less money in the bank (and new friends). She was given the same opportunities than the other friend, but was unable to leverage them. So don't do a certification, a MBA and any other diploma because you'll get more money / a better career. But if you do want to acquire project management skills and this certs seems a good way to learn them, then do it. If it's only to be able to display PMP after your name on linkedin, think about what you want to do next.

Private Pilot Certificate :)

[CCTalbert]

Might not have anything to do at all with your IT duties, but very often generates an interesting conversation. Most people assume you're a bit more competent/mature/serious (whether that's the case or not).

Languages

[square_root_of_minus]

Depends where you are, of course, but over here in Europe having certificates for speaking languages can help a lot, even for anti-social loner nerds like me. The certificates show potential employers that you'll do hard work to gain new skills, and that you have skills that will always be useful somewhere. I might only use English professionally, but being able to share jokes with the locals in their own lingo gets lots of brownie points. I found, to my surprise, that as a software engineer, it's not difficult to pick up natural languages, maybe because the job involves using lots of (artificial) languages. Mind you, in some places, such as where I live & work now (Luxembourg), the locals use four languages, not one; people really need to speak a few of them not to come across as congenitally stupid. When I was 50, I was a monolingual English speaker. Less than a decade later, I have my marital arguments in French, tell rude jokes badly in Luxembourgish, fend off job ads in Dutch, & get the pizza I intended in German.

More than just initials

[Lawrence_Bird]

There are really two components to this. First, is the time/effort/expense worth it to gain knowledge that may be useful in your profession or career generally. Second, will that certificate confer any additional monetary benefits or different/more advanced position in the near term.

The former is completely independent of the latter. Not everything you may know or do is assigned a tangible value by your current or future employer but having such knowledge may make your job easier to do or allow you to outperform others.

The later may often be true for all but the most specialized certifications. Rather than just list a bunch of acronyms it might be better to reference having 'a number of additional certifications in related fields' and allow the hiring firm to enquire further if they are interested. By doing so you show you continue to improve and stay current for its own sake and not to wave a bunch of letters at someone.

Re:Sure why not?

[BVis]

But, really, what are these certs worth to you?

They get you past HR idiots who think "certification" = "good" and don't throw away your resume immediately before someone who actually knows things gets a look at it.

Re:We have a Yes!

[tlhIngan]

Otherwise you're just aggravating people who have assumed the financial compensation was finalized.

Ask for it before they do paperwork, before you leave the negotiating meeting.

Well, they will have to withdraw their offer and present a new one with the bonus in it. Otherwise if they don't, guess what? They won't pay up. I mean, you're willing to sign right there, you ask for the bonus, and they can easily say "Yeah, sure, we can toss in $5000". You sign the paperwork, which probably says $0 bonus. Now you just screwed yourself because there's no evidence of the bonus. (And even if the HR guy isn't that calculating, they usually just plain forget, and if you remind them, they can say "well it says here there is no bonus").

So you've just prolonged the negotiations because they will have to withdraw the current offer. At which point one of two things happens - they fail to present you a new offer, or they update the paperwork.

In the first case, I've seen it happen where the executives and hiring managers just go and say "We give up, he's just too much trouble".

In the second case, well, you have to treat it as a new offer - because they WILL try to pull a fast one over you - you pull a fast one, they can just as well pull a fast one, hoping you'll just blindly sign it without realizing they changed a few things (e.g., reduced your salary).

Re:We have a Yes!

[phantomfive]

If that stuff happens, all I can say is you're really lousy at negotiating. Why do you cause so many problems?
Seriously, read a book or something.

Re:We have a Yes!

[redmid17]

We don't have to. We get what we want before it's put down on and countersigned without pissing anyone off.

Re:We have a Yes!

[phantomfive]

Good job?

I can see why you have trouble with people getting pissed off with you though......you should work on your personality issues, too.

Re:We have a Yes!

[redmid17]

Never had issues with that. It's part of the reason I can ask for the signing bonus and get it without having to backtrack and look like a punk

What about Medical and Law?

[iq145]

Are those considered "non-technical"? They're not in the I.T. field. Take me for example... i'm in paleontology. i'm doing ok.