Slashdot Mirror
Nintendo Nixes YouTube Videos of Super Mario Speedruns
The Boston Globe reports (based on Kotaku's story earlier this month) that Nintendo is cracking down on YouTube videos which show speedruns of its games -- computer-guided play that skips completely human hands pressing buttons on a controller. Why? The article notes that these play-throughs "require the use of ROMs, digital backup files of the original game that can be freely passed from computer to computer, or downloaded from well-known websites. Therefore, Nintendo reasons — and YouTube is clearly sympathetic to this reasoning — there are copyright issues at play, since players aren’t using the (ancient) original game cartridges, or newer copies sold directly online by Nintendo." Legally justifiable or not, this seems unlikely to build goodwill with some of Nintendo's most nostalgic fans.
I feel like we've talked about this before.
Maybe I'm remembering the takedown of the JavaScript remake of SMB. Either way, Nintendo are being assholes about this stuff. Maybe create some new games and consoles instead of protecting your 30-year-old stuff!
What the deuce? Yes, there are *some* people out there who use ROMs, hacked or otherwise, for their speedruns, but there are quite a few people who do them using stock consoles and vanilla cartridges. I can understand Nintendo getting upset about hacked gameplay, but they should not penalize people who glitch games or simply try to play as fast as possible.
It's also bullshit because that's a handy way to get kids into the guts of computing. They see it and think "I want to do that!" And they can. They can get an emulator, they can get the ROM, and all of a sudden they're looking at the machine code trying to figure out how it makes all the bleeps and the bloops on the screen.
I think that's missing in this age of locked-down everything. Back in my day (THERE. I SAID IT. I SAID IT.) I got into programming by copying the BASIC code for games out of the back of magazines into my Apple IIe. You realize all the stuff on the screen and all action comes from things humans wrote...and it's not really that much...and this is neat and all but how I make the ships move a little faster? Oh, that must be this part of the code right here...I'll change that to a 5 instead of a 4 and look the ships go faster!
We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
I agree that there are a lot of games I would not feel I missed out on anything after watching someone else play through it. That said, a speed-run is not a playthrough that that is applicable to.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
If I recall, they argue that you have to make the backup rom yourself from your copy of the game. You can't use one you downloaded and can't share one you made yourself.
Not only that, but there are things like Retrode ( https://www.dragonbox.de/en/63... ) that allow you to make your own ROM - file from an original cartridge that you own or just play directly from the cartridge using an emulator.
They're not penalizing normal speedruns, the summary is baiting you into thinking that. If you read the article you'll see that they're targeting tool-assisted speedruns, i.e.: ones that use pirated software.
The summary and Slashdot headline are inaccurate; the story makes clear that it's only talking about tool-assisted speedruns, which do require a ROM. (And the concrete example in the Times article refers to a hacked ROM.)
Watch the (for example) TASBot Runs from AGDQ - There are hands that aren't human playing video games. Namely TASBot's hands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
1. Retards -- let's piss off the consumers ...who _used_ to buy your stuff; Keep it up and Nintendo will find they won't have any consumers left to sell to.
2. Can someone smack Nintendo's Marketing dept with a sudden-outbreak-of-common-sense please?
Speed runs are FREE publicity.
This is the best advertising money can buy -- when consumers _willingly_ advertise your product for you without it costing you a cent! /sarcasm Nah, can't have that -- let's waste money on bullshit DMCA and drive a wedge between consumers.
3. Part of creating something for the culture to enjoy is that it BECOMES part of the culture -- ergo, the limited terms of copyright.
4. Why am I _not_ allowed to use an emulator if I legally have a physical cartridge? The medium is irrelevant -- I already purchased a license by physically buying the cartridge.
And the reasoning behind the need to block these videos is?
Protecting... uhm... the princess' privacy?
Perhaps it's just the last tale of woe from the 'corporate bullying' department?
But you can dump your own ROM. Or at least, you can get the same version ROM that matches a cart you bought at the flea market. So that's not necessarily illegal, either.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
the "bot" shown there is just for effect. tasbot is just a raspberry pi that plugs into the controller ports and plays the pre-recorded inputs back into real hardware.
Buck Feta. You know what to do.
There is absolutely nothing about a speedrun being tool-assisted that requires pirated software. The Retrode I just linked, for example, is a really easy and simple way of using your own, original cartridges. Also, there are plenty of videos on the Internet where people are using original consoles and cartridges connected to automated, modified controllers -- ie. tool-assisted runs.
Or at least, you can get the same version ROM that matches a cart you bought at the flea market.
This is illegal, you know, for the reasoning described in the opinion of the court in UMG v. MP3.com . To take advantage of the necessary adaptation and backup provisions of US copyright law (17 USC 117), you have to dump the ROM yourself. And you can't just buy an NES Game Pak reader at the same flea market. Even the Retrode never supported NES format; it came with Super NES and Sega Genesis cartridge readers, and most adapters fit in one of those slots.
If you read the article you'll see that they're targeting tool-assisted speedruns, i.e.: ones that use pirated software.
They have absolutely no way of knowing if the software used is pirated or not.
They just assume that it is pirated since it is easier to use pirated software than licensed software in this case.
I also assume that Nintendo are illegally bribing politicians and should be considered a criminal organization since it is easier to get to a dominant market position that way. Just like Nintendo I don't have any proof to back my speculations up with.
I am aware of that, but it doesn't stop my point (that no HUMAN is playing the game) is still correct. It also shows that Tool-Assisted Speedruns do not require emulators.
Let them get an emulator, and let them get a homebrew ROM. Just stay away from infringing copies of games published by Nintendo itself.
Playing through a TAS does not require emulation. Making the TAS, however, does unless you want to spend several minutes for each rerecord. And even then, without an emulator, you'll have no way of observing the hidden variables used in luck manipulation. So existence of a well-optimized TAS is prima facie evidence that an emulator was used.
Here's a list of tool assisted speed runs that are actually run on real hardware with a real copy of software : http://tasvideos.org/Movies-Ve...
Getting things to sync to real hardware is amazing that so much effort FROM FANS has gone into preserving these games in emulators that it works outside of those emulators.
I'm not sure what Nintendo's exact legal claim is (of course they'd rather not specify it!), but to this armchair lawyer is seems odd.
Since these videos are derivative works of the games, they are probably legal because they are fair use of the games (they display graphics from the game but aren't a substitute for the game etc). I guess Nintendo is claiming that "fair use" doesn't apply if your source is an infringing copy of the work. This is not impossible, though I don't see why it should be relevant. More importantly, I think that the custom ROMs involve fair use of Nintendo's ROMs, especially since Nintendo isn't offering new ROMs for sale.
I'm not sure what Nintendo's exact legal claim is (of course they'd rather not specify it!)
A video game is an audiovisual work, and Nintendo has the exclusive right under copyright law to perform its works publicly.
Since these videos are derivative works of the games
Nintendo has the exclusive right under copyright law to prepare derivative works of its works.
I guess Nintendo is claiming that "fair use" doesn't apply if your source is an infringing copy of the work.
This is true. I remember some courts interpreting the "purpose and character of the use" factor to rule out fair use defenses by alleged infringers who have unclean hands.
More importantly, I think that the custom ROMs involve fair use of Nintendo's ROMs, especially since Nintendo isn't offering new ROMs for sale.
Since when were Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario World removed from Virtual Console?
For one thing, "speedrunner.exe" appears to be malware according to a thread on Spybot forums.
For another thing, even if speedrunner.exe refers to a different executable, it works only for real-time speedruns that incorporate human reflexes and the limited information that the game provides to users. It's not practical for tool-assisted speedruns that attempt to achieve theoretically perfect play with perfect information. How do you perform the technique of "luck manipulation" in your case?
I think what's missing here is that in "protecting" their "rights" the game companies don't care if they destroy the fun. It's true in this case, it 's true with always-on and other intrusive DRM, it's true in numerous other ways.
It's almost as if they think we just owe them money in return for whatever crumbs they care to drop off the table. I understand that producing games costs money, I understand being in business to make a profit, and I don't support piracy. But there are two sides to the equation, and killing the fun changes the equation into an inequality ... the very thing that promotes piracy: "If you don't care, I don't care either."
Just because something illegal was done somewhere in the process to produce the video doesn't automatically make the video itself illegal.
This seems like fair use and I don't see how the DMCA or any other law applies in this situation.
These people will just find a new streaming site to use... How do marketing teams think this helps?
Makes sense - We're basically a welfare state for layers. Gotta give those litigious little twerps something to do so they can justify their existence.
never drink kool-aid from a big vat
Nintendo is very aggressive at eliminating anything it doesn't like. It really doesn't seem to get the notion of community or of just letting it slide. They also haven't quite got the hang of the Streisand Effect.
I can understand to a certain extent why they do this, but like the unofficial Pokemon party, they need to know when to turn a blind eye, or play community building tactics behind the scenes. BTW I am curious to know whether this action was by Nintendo Japan or Nintendo USA and how they vary in their legal aggression?
I wish Nintendo would just chill sometimes and just focus on getting the 21st century.
I say all this as someone who ends up buying the consoles from each generation, but still feeling they could do more to foster the love of the community and third-party developers.
Maybe I am just a regular loopy fanboy?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Let's start by acknowledging that piracy is a major issue for companies like Nintendo and that they should do something.
That being said I think they are doing the wrong things.
There was an article about a web browser playable version of the original Mario game whose developer got a take down notice from Nintendo. I understand Nintendo can't allow people to just post their games in a web browser format for free. The problem is that Nintendo should be hiring this developer and doing this themselves either selling access to consumers or using ads to support the effort. Very few people are likely to buy a 30 year old game but many people would sit through a short ad to play these games or pay a very small monthly fee for access to many titles.
Nintendo should have their own emulators and a ROM shopping site. With or without Nintendo people are going to use Emulators... Nintendo can still make some money on old games. I personally would pay about a dollar for any game before the Gamecube and a reasonable price for newer Gamecube and Wii titles. There are open source emulators for all previous Nintendo consoles, Nintendo should take the lead on this. For one they probably could have stopped the Dolphin Emulation community from emulating the Wii so quickly if they had more control over the community.
I use emulators for older games because there is no way I am going to carry 4 or 5 consoles around with me. I live in China right now and I like to play games with friends at coffee shops on my laptop. Even if I had a house I don't think I would want more than 2 consoles max in my living room...
I love games I'm willing to pay to play but Nintendo isn't making this easy, which is a shame!
Kazzo is a $20-30 USB device for Windows only (sigh). You get one connector for $20, $5 for each additional connector, and the options are NES, FC, and SNES — but the SNES connector is only for loading their SNES flash cart.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Running pirated copies of their games is not 'embracing' them. Buy a Wii or a 3DS and buy a virtual console version of Contra and Super Mario Bros. Pirating their stuff is distancing yourself.
Nintendo should have their own emulators and a ROM shopping site.
Nintendo has Virtual Console on the Wii, 3DS, and Wii U.
If you want to have fun you can spend the tiny $5 for a virtual console copy of the old game
Clearly Nintendo cares enough about fans of their old games to make them available for almost nothing. I doubt if they bring in a lot of revenue for the effort of producing, selling, and supporting the old games. They know it's important for their customer base so they provide it.
So the law is an ass, but those who seek to profit by it in the full knowledge that it is an ass, aren't?
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
No way I could talk my friends into buying a 3DS for an hour of Mario Kart or Mortal Kombat a few times a month.
One might say the same thing about PC games and their one system per player policy that PS3 and Xbox 360 happened to pick up as well. Besides, Mortal Kombat isn't Nintendo; it's WB, and it's on Steam. Even for Mario Kart, you can still "play games other than those published by Nintendo", such as Lego Racers or SuperTuxKart or emulated Crash Team Racing.
No, I don't work for Nintendo. If I did, I probably wouldn't have linked to original homebrew NES games a couple times in this discussion, and I wouldn't have recommended avoiding Nintendo's first-party games. I'm just trying to help clear up what current law and current facts are so that we have a better idea of what fans are up against.
Which no doubt is illegal in the eyes of Nintendo (and probably some states). You can be sure that they do not endorse any modification or copying of cartridges of systems.
Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
In the US, a backup is a backup is a backup. ROMS are LEGAL as long as you own the physical cart. The simple solution is to include a shot of the cart in the video stream and tell Nintendo to pound sand.
Good-bye
You can still do it, you just cant do it on youtube. You dont need youtube to distribute video.
Good-bye
Its not a pirate copy if you own the cart. ROMS are legal in the US via Sony v Universal.
Good-bye
Really? Nintendo had it in their console license agreement that you could not use third-party controllers? Or that you could only use Nintendo-licensed third-party controllers?
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
I do recall nintendo having beef with game genie at one point. I would look at this took in the same vein as a game genie
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
The emulator developers should license their emulators specifically to disallow the original manufacturer from using them commercially to replace the need for the original hardware.
They already do that. Popular emulators such as FCEUX are distributed under the GNU General Public License, a copyleft free software license. Console makers, on the other hand, forbid the use of copylefted software in licensed games. This ban became public after it was discovered that Majesco had used ScummVM, an emulator for LucasArts games, to port Pajama Sam to Wii. Nintendo instead develops its own emulators for use in Virtual Console releases.
So does this mean that Twitch is a criminal enterprise?
It is if it doesn't have a defense to copyright infringement. Following the OCILLA takedown procedure (17 USC 512) is one defense to copyright infringement that Twitch, YouTube, or another service provider can use.
Also, does this mean that any game review is in violation copyright law, since they are derivative works based on the original audiovisual work?
A review is infringing unless it has a defense, which is likely one based on the four factors of fair use (17 USC 107). For one thing, a review usually uses far less footage than a complete playthrough, which brings "amount and substantiality" in its favor more than it does for a speedrun video. Second, reviews tend to have a more transformative "purpose and character". But just saying something is fair use doesn't make it so.
a game is an interactive audiovisual work. A recording of a speedrun is not interactive.
Nor are the game's cut scenes. Besides, transformation into a different medium is a "derivative work", which is still infringement unless there's a fair use or other defense.
Youtube is pretty infamous for selling out its users
Until the alleged infringer outlines a plausible fair use defense as the basis for a counter-notification pursuant to OCILLA.
Nintendo is being hypocritical here, since they themselves use ROM dump and emulator technology in their game systems.
Nintendo is allowed to distribute its own games because it owns copyright in its own games. The team responsible for Virtual Console didn't have to download infringing copies from the Net. Instead, they could have done one of two things. Either they found where Nintendo had saved the original files used to create the mask ROMs, or they pulled a copy out of the library where a copy of every licensed game is kept and dumped the PRG and CHR data out of that.
As much as you wish you could be, you are not Disney
Exactly. Nintendo didn't lobby for the 1998 copyright term extension. Disney did.
and can't just keep injecting adrenaline into that geriatric lineup of classic characters.
In 2003 and 2004, Disney killed Bill. How much more violent can you get than Quentin Tarantino?
What you need is fresh, original content.
And Splatoon isn't?
Encourage people to try speedruns on your hardware, by offering new versions (not just console dumps!) of old titles with new features that allow tracking of speedrun times.
Something like NES Remix?
Say HI to Atari for me while you are out there. They too went down the dark road of filling their console lineup with CRAP.
Incidentally, a lot of Nintendo's practices were intended to avoid the crap that associated itself with Atari's brand in 1983-84. That's why the NES had a lockout chip, for instance.
I'm imagining a cow at a speedway.
"........mmmmmmmoooOOOOOOOOOOooooooooo........."
Goodwill indeed. The suits keep believing they can control the universe, even as steadily-changing conditions/technology shrink their actual grip.
Down the line, grooming a bigger base will be what matters, harboring loyalty and, yes, good will that makes the phrase "Nintendo" conceptually linked with positive ideas and words in the public consciousness.
Nintendo doesn't care about nostalgic fans. All it cares about is how quickly it can file for bankruptcy.
I am surprised Nintendo hasn't been more aggressive in enforcing its IP.
Like targeting http://www.supermariobrosx.org... and Super Mario Bros X (a PC game that lets you build and play Mario levels, something in direct competition with their new Super Mario Maker game)
Or going after the many web sites selling arcade machines featuring unlicensed copies of Nintendo games in them.
New direction on where and how to control IP ? Be damned the fanboys?
No sig for you! Come back one year!
There is a difference between an infringing work and a work that may have involved infringement in its making.
For example, posting a song/movie without the copyright holder's permission is not the same thing as posting a video that includes a song/movie clip that is protected by fair use, but instead of buying the song/movie you got it from a filesharing site.
Nothing posted to
I don't think having a robot arm control the controller can be considered modifying the system. And I can't see how Nintendo could prove that this isn't how you did it.
The Game Boy, Nintendo 64, and Game Boy Color internal ROM is just a small bootloader, and emulators tend to high-level emulate this, meaning they reimplement its functionality in native code as part of the emulator. Game Boy Advance and Nintendo DS, on the other hand, have a BIOS with actual routines that games call. Emulators can HLE these, or you can you can use a BIOS dump made with your own system and a flash cartridge.
to be clear im not siding with nintendo, im simply saying its not against their character to do this being they have been doing it for 30 years
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
Sworn deposition would probably do it. Having to swear on a stack of holy bibles can plain rattle some folks.
To follow on this, I invite people to look up the Awesome Games Done Quick/Summer Games Down Quick charity streams. They often include sections by TASbot; a robot that plays tool assisted speedruns on actual consoles, running the actual games from actual game cartridge. ROMs were probably involved somewhere along the lines to create those TAS runs, but that's not what the videos are showing.
If you create a painting using stolen paintbrushes, the painting is still yours.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Nintendo created some program, so that users can monetize ther LP's - AFTER Nintendo censored them of course.
Maybe this is a step to coax those players into this program, where Nintendo can silence all critics at will?
Or they just don't want the world to know that their Mario Games can be played through in mere minutes :D
(i know that's not true for all marios, but the older ones for sure)
Does anyone know what this is referencing? I can't seem to find any info, and I've forever polluted my search history.
the problem being, that many times the newer versions will patch out existing glitches, or be slightly to significantly different from existing versions. It'd be like trying to have speed records if they modified the length of the track slightly every other year. or changed the speed of a second.
i think on different versions of symphony of the night, the speed runners have to contend with the different load speeds between the different systems.
Nothing better to do with their time!