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When Schools Overlook Introverts

Esther Schindler writes: A few years ago, Susan Cain's book, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking seemed to give the world a bit of enlightenment about getting the most out of people who don't think they should have to be social in order to succeed. For a while, at least some folks worked to respect the needs and advantages of introversion, such as careful, reflective thinking based on the solitude that idea-generation requires.

But in When Schools Overlook Introverts, Michael Godsey writes, "The way in which certain instructional trends — education buzzwords like "collaborative learning" and "project-based learning" and "flipped classrooms" — are applied often neglect the needs of introverts. In fact, these trends could mean that classroom environments that embrace extroverted behavior — through dynamic and social learning activities — are being promoted now more than ever." It's a thoughtful article, worth reading. As I think many people on slashdot will agree, Godsley observes, "This growing emphasis in classrooms on group projects and other interactive arrangements can be challenging for introverted students who tend to perform better when they're working independently and in more subdued environments."

44 of 307 comments (clear)

  1. Social media by IWantMoreSpamPlease · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Did in being an introvert. SM (as opposed to S&M, which is for another topic) is the current be-all-end-all to a great many people. It's sort of like AOL was the internet back in the early 90s, SM is the internet.
    But for introverts, who don't feel like posting every aspect of their life for all to see (I am one of those) we are overlooked in this mad rush to get 10,000 "friends" or 20 million "likes" and I feel it's infecting schools as well. Not directly, but in the way of thinking that everything (learning) must be done in groups, or socially, or collaboratively, which is not the way we all think or learn.

    --
    So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
    1. Re:Social media by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 4, Funny

      Makes sense. Slashdot is Antisocial Media, so most introverts probably feel at home here. :-D

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    2. Re: Social media by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Many years ago some school in the northwest did a pretty substantial study of online relationships. When I saw that less than 3% of online friends had ever worked to help their friend with a real life problems, that's when I realized what a waste of time SNS is. They described the qualifier for this as things like moving, driving long distances, etc.

      SNS is the Walmart of friendships. Convenient cheap and plentiful low quality friendship.

    3. Re: Social media by Bengie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Friendship" in the same sense as talking to a stranger while waiting in line and calling them a "friend". A friend isn't someone that you know, it's someone you can depend upon.

    4. Re:Social media by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't really see SNS as anything new, and your characterization of them seems the opposite of what actually happens to me. People with few friends have actual, real friends on SNS. People with 10,000 "friends" and 20 million "likes" are actually quite isolated and distant from those people, and crave real life interaction all the more for it.

      Sorry, but that doesn't jive with the social media addicts I know. Most of them are the kind that are doing social things all the time and still can't get enough because they can't be everywhere with everybody all the time, so social media is their way of pseudo-staying in contact with an oversized social circle. Like you're on a cabin trip with friends A and B so you couldn't go partying with friends C and D or be at family member E's celebration or colleague F's birthday party but through insta-face-twitter you're trying to take part in everything and let everyone take part in what you're doing anyway.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:Social media by the+grace+of+R'hllor · · Score: 2

      You mean 'jibe'. Nothing of any significance has 'jived' since Barbara Billingsworth on the movie Airplane.

    6. Re:Social media by xenotransplant · · Score: 2

      The term for what you describe is "fear of missing out"

    7. Re:Social media by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would argue that group learning is a flawed way of learning whether you're an introvert or extrovert. On paper it would seem logical that group dynamics would be that the first person to figure something out would then relay that information to his/her group peers. Unfortunately this requires advanced reasoning skills that most people do not possess. Instead, the loudest person in the group usually dictates the answer and others accept it for flawed reasons, such as, "he/she must know what they're talking about since they're so convinced." In slightly more advanced groups the tendency is to believe the person with the answer that sounds most believable, whether it's true or not. This will often lead people to learn incorrectly as well.

      Group learning is also flawed because it introduces noise into the signal of each student's performance. If a student that needs a lot of extra attention is placed in a group with students who are doing well, he/she may ride their coattails and avoid receiving the specialized attention they need.

      The whole approach, I believe, is a consequence of our society's increasingly hedonistic tendency to let good feelings trump reason. "Everybody's a winner" applied to learning.

    8. Re:Social media by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not really, it assumes you give a damn.

      I can't tell you how many stupid platforms I've been subjected to at work which seem to labor under the bullshit premise that my work, or anybody else's, is going to be improved by "teh soshul medias".

      All those things with badges for participation and the like? I hate these things in real life, and I despise them in my work life. It propagates the stupid belief that by adding more volume of pointless content and getting recognized as a "good contributor" that it generates anything of value.

      Introversion means you simply don't want 500 Facebook friends, don't see the structure of "social media" as enhancing anything, and actively want no part of it.

      Somewhere along the line when companies started using this cap internally as if it was going to save the corporate culture and make us all more productive, they lost the plot. So now you have a bunch of magpies who use it because it's cool and fun, and a bunch of people who can't find anything useful because it's crammed full of inane garbage and notifications that someone liked someone else's post.

      I'm not looking for "cool and fun", I'm looking for information to do my job. And I don't want it structured in such a way as to require me to sift through a bunch of "workversations" to find the useful bits among the rubbish. The signal to noise ratio renders the platform largely useless.

      If this crap in the workplace feels useless and distracting, I can only imagine that in an educational setting it leaves a lot of kids thinking "why would I do this, how does it help me, and why am I being forced to use this crap?"

      Social media is rewarding if you want to be constantly validated as participating in a group and have a video-game level of "accomplishments", and it's utterly useless if you don't. It just ads a layer of pointless crap which has nothing to do with what you're trying to do ... but it satisfies some clueless halfwit who saw a seminar which said that social media would make everything better.

      Give me the tools to do my damned job, and don't impose some framework where I have to pretend to want to have a social conversation to extract every single piece of information. Because it makes for terribly organized information which is less useful the more stuff is around it.

      Other than making some people feel better about things, I'm not convinced social media helps you accomplish a damned thing.

      I sincerely hope the trend that everything is social media ends soon -- because it's annoying as hell, and in my experience, not substantiated in terms of what it actually accomplishes.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    9. Re:Social media by IronChef · · Score: 2

      I am an introvert without a Facebook account (or Twitter, or Instawhatever). And I love social media.

      I kind of want to be left alone, or rather, I want to choose when and how I interact with people. With most people seemingly socializing through Facebook, it is a snap to opt out of unwanted social pressures and small talk if you aren't also a user.

      Facebook casts a long shadow. It is easy to disappear in it.

    10. Re: Social media by cayenne8 · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Friendship" in the same sense as talking to a stranger while waiting in line and calling them a "friend". A friend isn't someone that you know, it's someone you can depend upon.

      I heard it put very succinctly this way:

      Friends help you move....

      REAL friends help you move bodies...

      :)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    11. Re:Social media by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      Yes, we need to get rid of AC posting in its entirety. Screen names are all the anonymity we need.

  2. Flipped Classrooms by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can see how "collaborative learning" and "project-based learning" might be problematic for introverts, but flipped classrooms might actually be better for them. Although there are several ways that they can be delivered, the most typical model is where students watch instructional material online by themselves, then do their homework in class. It seems to me that this would be an ideal situation for an introvert. No distraction during instruction or anxiety of being called on or asked to the front of the class, etc.

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    1. Re:Flipped Classrooms by NotDrWho · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can see how "collaborative learning" and "project-based learning" might be problematic for introverts

      It's been my experience that those terms have a much more sinister meaning in real life that they appear on the surface. "Collaborative learning," "project-based learning," any kind of focus on groups or group projects, and so on are often a teaching buzzwords for "Put all the kids in a group so the smart kids can carry the dumb kids and then on paper it looks like everyone is doing well." Here is the way a "group project" worked at my old school:

      1) Put at least one smart kid (like me) in each group (with the dumb and mediocre kids)
      2) Smart kid does all the work because he/she actually wants an "A"
      3) Dumb and mediocre kids do fuck all, learn fuck all, and accomplish fuck all, Mostly they just nap or play on their cellphones while the smart kid works.
      4) Group gets an "A" because the smart kid works his/her ass off
      5) Dumb and mediocre kids get an "A," look on paper like they're really improving and learning

      EDUCATION!

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    2. Re:Flipped Classrooms by avandesande · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is to get them all ready for the work experience....

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    3. Re:Flipped Classrooms by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Collaborative learning," "project-based learning," any kind of focus on groups or group projects, and so on are often a teaching buzzwords for "Put all the kids in a group so the smart kids can carry the dumb kids and then on paper it looks like everyone is doing well."

      That's probably the most cynical way of putting it. A well-organized group project with proper evaluation and assessment can do more than that. Part of the problem is finding suitable types of projects for group work. Projects that are open-ended, exploratory, require experimentation (and often benefit from people with different ideas for approaches) -- group work can be good there.

      With younger children -- who haven't yet become so utterly cynical about education and haven't bought into the American malaise of anti-intellectualism -- groups of different ability levels can be incredibly beneficial. It's a common approach in many Montessori and private school classrooms, where grade levels are often combined to everyone's benefit. The younger or slower kids watch the older and smarter kids, and they often have an innate capacity to help each other learn together.

      Here is the way a "group project" worked at my old school:

      I empathize with your description; I recall many similar situations in school myself. Part of the problem is the cultural divide I mentioned above -- many older kids and teenagers simply don't value excellence in education.

      But another major flaw in your description is the lack of an appropriate assessment. "Dumb and mediocre kids" shouldn't get an "A" just because the overall work of a group gets an "A." Learning should be tested via a separate assessment -- whether an individual report or a test on the material learned through the group project or whatever.

      Group work shouldn't be a vehicle to give everyone an "A." It's a different learning strategy, which can sometimes be helpful with proper guidance from a teacher. The results of the group should not be substituted for an individual assessment strategy, and if you had teachers who did that, you're probably correct that it wasn't the best method of education.

    4. Re:Flipped Classrooms by Lemmeoutada+Collecti · · Score: 2

      Hypothetical scenario:

      I am a teacher. My pay - and my very having a job - is measured on how many of the students I teach get an "A" according to the metrics used by the administration. By having the smart kids carry the slower kids, I can guarantee the maximum number of students receiving that "A"; even though the standardized testing used to measure their performance is individualized, the smart kids can impart enough temporary knowledge on the slower ones to make the grade. What should I do?

      --

      You can have it fast, accurate, or pretty. Pick any 2.
    5. Re:Flipped Classrooms by j2.718ff · · Score: 2

      "Put all the kids in a group so the smart kids can carry the dumb kids and then on paper it looks like everyone is doing well." Here is the way a "group project" worked at my old school:

      1) Put at least one smart kid (like me) in each group (with the dumb and mediocre kids)
      2) Smart kid does all the work because he/she actually wants an "A"
      3) Dumb and mediocre kids do fuck all, learn fuck all, and accomplish fuck all, Mostly they just nap or play on their cellphones while the smart kid works.
      4) Group gets an "A" because the smart kid works his/her ass off
      5) Dumb and mediocre kids get an "A," look on paper like they're really improving and learning

      EDUCATION!

      Yup, I had exactly the same experience. It made me hate all forms of group activities. It wasn't until I entered the working world where I began working with groups of people who actually wanted to try hard (because the low-performers eventually leave or fired). Now, the lower-performing members of my teams aren't slackers, but just folks with less experience who are actually interested in learning -- working with them is a joy. At work, it is normal for me to both learn and teach new things in any group activity. This never happened in all my years of education.

    6. Re:Flipped Classrooms by Talderas · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I empathize with your description; I recall many similar situations in school myself.

      Fortunately, I was almost always in the advanced classes so group projects involved enough smart kids that it was collaborative rather than one person doing a lot of the work. Group projects were rarer in the few classes without advanced versions where I was foisted in with the general population. The one time that wasn't the case was when I was in drama during my senior year. My class had a number of the students who took part in the theater extracurricular activities as well as those that did not. For our first group project those of us in the extracurricular theater made groups largely because we were all friends with each other the teacher let us do that but warned us that we would only be allowed to do it once and that warning occurred during our extracurricular theater project not during class. Those two group projects were the best of the classes by far. After that we split up into other groups without indication that we had forewarning that we wouldn't be allowed to stay with the same group. Some of the students showed measurable improvement for the second group project and I feel that the two biggest parts of that were having first seen the experienced groups do their project then also the presence of one of the experienced students served to motivate through confidence.

      I personally think that everyone has their natural aptitudes defined by their soft skill set that's difficult to judge and measure and this in turn influences how well an individual performs in hard skills. The major issue that I have with group projects in primary and secondary education is that most people haven't yet had enough time to start to understand their own aptitudes. Identifying who can and who cannot can be difficult outside of narrow categories so you can end up with those situations where people with no aptitude for the task at hand being tossed into a group with one person with the aptitude and knowledge.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    7. Re:Flipped Classrooms by Talderas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Resign.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    8. Re:Flipped Classrooms by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've got some feedback to point you toward, NotDrWho.
      The style of classroom you describe is used extensively by the University of Oklahoma School of Computer Science after a bunch of research. Several years worth of studies essentially found that the lower performing students in those groups would later take individual exams and score roughly half a letter grade higher than those who didn't work in those group projects... follow up studies attributed this gain mostly to being forced to be in proximity to the already-successful students. The already-successful students ALSO BENEFIT from the system, showing a notable jump in their own individual exam scores, but, more importantly, showing a significant jump in their individual *retention* of information a year later, attributed to not only having to learn the material but attempting to teach the material. The situation is pretty much loathed by the already-successful students, but the data has been repeated year after year that it is better for nearly all the students in the environment, both the top performers and the bottom performers. Moreover, over several years of exposure, a peer pressure effect builds up, and you get more and more students actively participating in the later years.

      If you want to learn more, the term you should Google is "Readiness Assurance Tests"... these are tests that students take twice, once as a group and once as individuals, and your score is the average of the group and the individual. You can also take a look at these links:
      https://ccistudentcenterblog.w...
      http://slideplayer.com/slide/4...
      https://www.ou.edu/idp/teamlea...

    9. Re:Flipped Classrooms by Reapy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I hear you there. In high school I struggled so much with "How are ya?" As a depressed person living in my head with a huge amount of anxiety, the true answer to that question involved minutes of conversation. Knowing that nobody wanted those minutes still took me several seconds to blast over and discard, then trip and stumble through an answer before landing on something. It took a lot of work to just be able to say "good", even when that wasn't the true answer, or even an appropriate response to the question asked. They are just simply social barks of no meaning.

      It was a long time coming before I realize what you said above, that most of the time people aren't in the mood to engage their brains and have a serious discussion right as soon as you meet up, that you have to work up to that kind of thing.

      In terms of learning, I've always been of the mind that you have to keep the difficulty proportional to the skill. I game a lot so they are useful analogies for me, but when teaching someone, you can't throw them in against a professional player and expect growth, you have to first teach the person to be average level and familiar before time with excellent players is beneficial in the slightest.

      Ironically, middle and high school is probably some of the most treacherous and brutal social situations we all have to go through, and at a time when we are all weakest at doing so. Interacting with most sane adults is generally the best practice before people get thrown to the lions, but that never seems to be the way it goes.

      In some ways I wonder that its generally easier to interact with adults because we have all been mostly scarred at one point or another in high school, and thus learn empathy properly, but eh.

    10. Re:Flipped Classrooms by Solandri · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'll add that if you were the smart kid put into a group of dumb fucks, then it was intentional. To quote Game of Thrones, "he's grooming you for command." The teacher knew you were the smart kid who wouldn't learn anything from the menial work of the activity itself. So he intentionally put you into a position where you'd have the chance to assume a leadership role and direct others on how to do the work. That way you'd learn something new - how to lead and teach others, project coordination, delegating responsibilities. If your response to the situation was to curl up in a ball and do all the work yourself, then you weren't as smart and creative as you think you are. The teacher handed you an opportunity, and instead of taking advantage of it to figure out a new way to deal with the new situation, you crawled back to your tried and true solution - do everything yourself - even though it was completely inappropriate and non-optimal for the situation.

    11. Re:Flipped Classrooms by PRMan · · Score: 2

      And then you get a C because Dumb and Dumber didn't do any work at all.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    12. Re:Flipped Classrooms by PRMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      My daughter's current Geometry teacher thinks "flipped" classroom is great. His definition:

      • First 25 minutes, help kids with last night's homework.
      • Next 10 minutes, rush through prewritten lesson on board and scream, "Get it?! Any questions?!" in a way that nobody would dare ask a question.
      • Next 25 minutes, help kids with tonight's homework. Neglect to get to all of them because there isn't time.

      My daughter is teaching herself Geometry because she's "smart" and "doesn't need help" so she can never get his attention. So I end up teaching her Geometry at night because he's the worst teacher she's ever had.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    13. Re:Flipped Classrooms by rhsanborn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not everyone wants to be a leader. I say this as an introvert who has taken on leadership roles. I appreciate that some people are awesome at being top-notch individual contributors, and teachers who try to shoe-horn kids into extrovert styles are doing those students a disservice. Frankly, it's way more common that teachers are extroverts, so they're trying to make their students act like extroverts too.

  3. Both types of learning are important by Bengie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I am an introverted person and I do well on my own, but I also like having some contact with other people. When I was younger, spending time away from other people allowed me to learn more about myself. As time went on, I started to reach the limits of what I could learn about myself alone and I needed to be around people to find out more about me.

    Being around people is a large energy drain for me, but I do require some interaction to be optimal.

    1. Re:Both types of learning are important by RogueyWon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Few people are fully introverted or extroverted and they shouldn't be encouraged to think of themselves as such. TFA makes a few reasonable points, but I can't help but feel that it is founded upon a false premise. A premise which stems from the way in which people misuse the results of Myers-Briggs and other similar personality-tests.

      Running through the article is a belief that people must, in both education and the workplace, be allowed to work in the manner that best fits their personality types. That's not how the world works.

      On Myers-Briggs, I show up as a mild-to-moderate introvert. I match some of the descriptors for "introvert" pretty well, but not others. However, what I've always been clear about is that this is not an "excuse" for anything.

      Myers-Briggs and the like should be more about enabling the individual being tested to understand how they might need to change their own actions and behaviours to compensate for inbuilt tendencies; not to give them a list of demands for how the world should change to suit them. I found it a fairly useful exercise; I've been able to apply it at work to both play to strengths and compensate for weaknesses. But it's not an excuse.

      Back at school, some of my most effective teachers were those who, as I now realise, understood my introvert tendencies and knew how to encourage me to stretch myself beyond what I was comfortable with. We all need that from time to time, especially when we are children. Those on the introverted side need to understand that it's not much use to be able to think if you can't also communicate and work with others. Those on the extroverted side need to be taught that there is a time when you need to sit down, shut up and listen. Most workplaces aren't going to be willing to indulge extreme behaviours on either side.

      Group projects and collaborative work are, at best, tools that should be used in only limited roles in the classroom (albeit with wider scope at college level in some subjects). But that's mostly because of the potential for cheating or for some kids to coast by on the efforts of others.

    2. Re: Both types of learning are important by gsslay · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The best explanation I have ever heard is that an extrovert gets energized by being around people. An introvert gets tired.

      Worth repeating.

      Being an introvert does not mean you hide in your room, hate people and avoid talking to everyone. An evening to yourself is bliss, whereas an extrovert would consider it torture. An evening in a crowd, talking to people you don't know, is hard work, whereas an extrovert would consider it the best party ever.

  4. Correlates to the rise of "political correctness". by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The most interesting thing to note is that the rise in these more group-oriented methods of teaching has happened in parallel with, but slightly lagging, the rise of what's commonly called "political correctness".

    But maybe it shouldn't be surprising that this has happened. Political correctness, as it's called, is the philosophy of suppressing individual thought and expression in order to create a cohesive, dull, uninspired collective thought that's devoid of originality. The best way to eliminate a person's individual intellectual abilities is to control and shape them from the very earliest years of this person's life.

    Schools are, after all, the primary place where a society shapes its future generations. Teachers, most of whom have moved from school directly to college, and then directly to teaching in the schools they attended only a few years before, have never had any meaningful position or interaction outside of academia.

    The concept of political correctness originated within the leftist-, socialist-, and communist-oriented segments of academia, most often from what are called the "social sciences" (but which tend to have absolutely nothing to do with science in any way). These college academics are the ones who taught the school teachers, thus seeding political correctness into the education systems around the world.

    So we end up with the situation we have today, where all school-related participation must be at the group level. Individualism cannot be tolerated. It's not considered acceptable for a pupil to have his or her own thoughts, especially if they may disagree with or conflict with what the academic leadership has deemed to be correct. Any students who dare show signs of individualism are systematically crushed until they become part of the group conformity.

    The current education system is just a byproduct of the pernicious attitude that colleges and academia has toward any free thought and free expression that doesn't exactly correlate to what these academics believe.

  5. Group work in school by Calydor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Gods, how I hated that crap.

    If I am going to succeed or fail in school it should NOT be based on the morons the teacher groups me with, but on my own capabilities.

    In my memory of my school years, group work inevitably devolved into the rest of the group chatting among themselves while I did the work anyway.

    --
    -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    1. Re:Group work in school by mwvdlee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      School should be an environments where everybody gets to succeed triumphantly and fail misserably, with projects that are socially hyperactive, projects that require isolation and everything inbetween. They should teach self esteem and humility equally, let students learn their weaknesses as well as their strenghts and hand them the tools to deal with them.

      --
      Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    2. Re:Group work in school by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I remember the teacher let us pick our own groups... once. The three absolutely brightest students in the class and one upper-halfer who would all normally carry a group on their own joined forces, actually doing a quarter of the work each of good quality to begin with, getting good discussion, feedback and QA and some internal competitiveness and finally give the chance to excel meant we delivered a group project that was A+++. Meanwhile, many other groups who were used to at least having one useful team member were suddenly stuck with all slackers and less than gifted pupils. If it was merely graded it might not have been so bad but it also involved presentations in class, where it became painfully obvious to everyone how big the differences were. That never, ever happened again.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:Group work in school by Qzukk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah! You should stop doing the work so everyone gets an F, including yourself! That'll show 'em!

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  6. We all have to work together. by LWATCDR · · Score: 2

    Everyone must get along, we must all work together. The loaner is a danger to society because they chose not to fit in. The individual doesn't matter. No one is better than anyone else.
    It seems like instructions from Marx or a warning from Ryand.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re: We all have to work together. by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually in my experience those that are the most mediocre have the least patience for other mediocre people.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  7. history is written by the winners by yes-but-no · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So who brings about these so called great school programs? it's very likely a bunch of extroverts. So they think whatever activities helped them grow, will help everyone. And by definition an introvert is not going to be in such a decision making group/power. So is it all bad? not really. A truly introvert will keep moving in the direction of his strength; that is he (or she) goes even more into himself and finds the gold. So it's just a darwinian selection of the stronger introvert to come out with success. I guess the game is to find the toughest independent of the cards one is dealt with.

  8. Re:INTJ... by EmeraldBot · · Score: 2

    Which is the rarest type of introvert (only 1-2% of the worlds population) is also the type with the smartest, most successful, creative people. Isaac Newton, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, Nikola Tesla, Bobby Fischer, Stephen Hawking, Isaac Asimov, Roger Waters, Augustus Caesar, Chevy Chase, John F. Kennedy were INTJs. As one myself, I can tell you we see the world from a unique perspective, but are perceived as being weird by non INTJs. The school system absolutely was not geared up for us, too slow and boring.

    I thought the INFJ's were the rarest? I've seen it several places, but here's a good table of them.

    --
    "Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
  9. I can just see the extrovert teacher saying by Chrisq · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can just see the extrovert teacher saying: No problem with introverts here! I've never heard them complaining.

  10. Re:INTJ... by ComputerGeek01 · · Score: 2

    Becareful with stroking your ego so much, you'll go blind.

  11. Lets face it.. by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Unless an introvert is absolutely brilliant they will be ignored. This world totally caters to people who can't stop talking about themselves. That's just the way it is.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  12. Re:True by nealric · · Score: 2

    It's a little different in a real job, however. In a real job (at least at a reasonably well run organization), there is an established hierarchy (you know who is supposed to be in charge), and there are established roles (you know what you are supposed to be doing). In a class assignment, they throw 4 random kids into a group and leave them to figure everything out. In practice, it usually ends up being one smart/motivated kid doing everything while all the other kids socialize. The only thing in common is it teaches the kids doing nothing how to take credit for someone else's work.

  13. "Normal" introverts are overlooked by ErichTheRed · · Score: 2

    I read "Quiet" a few years ago, and the author really does make a good point. Outgoing, gregarious people like salespeople, athletes, politicians, and so on are the ones who get the most attention simply because they're always out there. Likewise, the ultra-introverted (read: borderline autistic) also get noticed because they're so different from this norm that everyone has in their head.

    The problem with rewarding extroverted behavior in education or the workplace comes when you're dealing with "normal" introverts. I'm one of these guys. I really dislike group work, and I'm not at my best working with others. However, I'm not staring at my shoes all the time either...I just -prefer- individual activities and pretend to enjoy office politics, etc. when it comes my way. I just think people need to understand that extroversion is not the default choice, and that there are people who thrive with others and people who do best on their own. For a workplace example, take the open office plan -- no quiet spaces at all, designed to encourage "collaboration." Extroverts like me who prefer to work alone find environments like this distracting, but HR dogma is pushing these through at every company lately.

  14. Re:Hated it too. 35 years, STILL surrounded by mor by tehcyder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's fucking uncanny how literally everyone posting here is a solitary genius surrounded by incompetent, lazy fools.

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it