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Prison Debate Team Beats Harvard's National Title Winners
HughPickens.com writes: Lauren Gambino reports at The Guardian that months after winning this year's national debate championship, Harvard's debate team has fallen to a debate team of three inmates with violent criminal records. The showdown took place at the Eastern correctional facility in New York, a maximum-security prison where convicts can take courses taught by faculty from nearby Bard College, and where inmates have formed a popular debate club. The Bard prison initiative has expanded since 2001 to six New York correctional facilities, and aims to provide inmates with a liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work. A three-judge panel concluded that the Bard team had raised strong arguments that the Harvard team had failed to consider and declared the team of inmates victorious. "Debate helps students master arguments that they don't necessarily agree with," says Max Kenner. "It also pushes people to learn to be not just better litigators but to become more empathetic people, and that's what really speaks to us as an institution about the debate union."
The prison team has proven formidable in the past, beating teams from the US military academy at West Point and the University of Vermont. They lost a rematch against West Point in April, setting up a friendly rivalry between the teams. The competition against West Point has become an annual event, and the prison team is preparing for the next debate in spring. In the morning before the debate, team members talked of nerves and their hope that competing against Harvard—even if they lost—would inspire other inmates to pursue educations. "If we win, it's going to make a lot of people question what goes on in here," says Alex Hall, a 31-year-old from Manhattan convicted of manslaughter. "We might not be as naturally rhetorically gifted, but we work really hard."
The prison team has proven formidable in the past, beating teams from the US military academy at West Point and the University of Vermont. They lost a rematch against West Point in April, setting up a friendly rivalry between the teams. The competition against West Point has become an annual event, and the prison team is preparing for the next debate in spring. In the morning before the debate, team members talked of nerves and their hope that competing against Harvard—even if they lost—would inspire other inmates to pursue educations. "If we win, it's going to make a lot of people question what goes on in here," says Alex Hall, a 31-year-old from Manhattan convicted of manslaughter. "We might not be as naturally rhetorically gifted, but we work really hard."
From the article:
"Among formerly incarcerated Bard students who earned degrees while in custody, fewer than 2% have returned to prison within three years, a standard measurement period for assessing recidivism. This is exceptionally low, when contrasted with the statewide recidivism rate, which has hovered for decades at about 40%."
Sounds like a wonderful program.
Released inmates from Eastern Correctional Facility quickly work their way up the chain of command in their respective gangs.
1. Harvard doesn't necessarily mean genuinely smart, believe me I have first-hand experience. Additionally, a bunch of cocky elitists from an Ivy League school probably didn't prepare in for this little shindig to the same extent as their opponents. In fact, you might say their opponents were captivated with their training....
2. Look at the position that the good left-wing indoctrinated Harvardites were asked to take: That forcing public schools to educate any and all children of illegal aliens is not necessarily a good thing.
They can use all of their technical debate skills all day long, but you know that they secretly wanted to lose. After all, they heartily approve of forcing taxpayers to pay for free schooling that teaches illegal alien kids that America is evil & racist while failing to teach them English, because English literacy == racism. After all, they go to private prep schools and don't have to see any of those kids, so it's all well and good if the the lower classes have to put up with them.
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
Interesting, they said some of the very same things the GOP has said about allowing illegals in schools... only they don't get called "racists" or "xenophobes" for doing it, AND they beat Harvard. Take note, dumb asses.
The inmates in Bellevue's psych ward.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
That's a typical racist position. What do they the "public" in public education means?
I guess it's better than teaching metal shop or lock picking,
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
is full of "master debaters" Ha Ha!
I got to the chocolate box before you, that's why the hard ones have teeth marks.
...provide inmates with a liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work.
Do they also teach them how to cook? That seems like it will be useful when they apply their degree to their McDonalds' job.
Joking aside, I think this is amazing. Actually trying to meaningfully rehabilitate offenders so they can re-integrate into society and actually do something productive. I would also hope that they would offer more specialized or in-depth programs for individuals that show the initiative and promise.
A three-judge panel concluded that the Bard team had raised strong arguments that the Harvard team had failed to consider and declared the team of inmates victorious.
They're Bards.
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
I'm just wondering. Is one of these guys named "Lex Luthor" or "Padraic Ratigan"?
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Check your privilege!!
It acknowledges and legitimizes humanity and worth of those in prison. I wonder if the inmates have an advantage in that they may be a decade or more older than their college competitors, and thus have more experiences and maturity over them...
(My subject was originally titled "This is awesome", not "koick", but got wiped somehow when submitting.)
And he lost a debate to a inmate, then he would need to figure out how to self fund his education going forward. Talk about embarrassing. Whats next inmates earning extra cash writing college papers?
I'm pretty sure the non-violent offenders would be better off learning a trade like plumbing, or HVAC systems installation/repair rather than a history degree.
Why? Why do you assume that people that are in prison are stupid?
Harvard's a *legacy* school!
You don't go there for an education, you go to make "contacts".
It's basically just a papermill for rich kids to buy degrees, and you expect them to be educated? LOL - the whole reason they're buying a degree from a legacy school in the first place is so they don't have to do any work.
That's funny, I've always heard Harvard is just full of Master Debaters.
Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
I couldn't help but think, while reading this story, that it'd be perfect for a "based on real life" movie script. Has all the ingredients to be a "feel good, downtrodden guys make good" film.
Then why are they receiving a liberal arts education? They'll have no choice but to return to a life of crime.
I think most people are unaware of what constitutes debate.
How To Speak Gibberish & Win A National Debate Title
http://www.theamericanconserva...
They used a killer argument...
Yeah, I'm stupid.
Among people with college degrees in the first place, that might be true if we consider places like Wal-Mart to be private run prisons.
Please note that counting Wal-Mart as a prison is not as ridiculous as it might sound--they have been known to lock workers inside the store:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/18/us/workers-assail-night-lock-ins-by-wal-mart.html?pagewanted=all
I wonder if the media will ever ask Hillary about that practice, given that she was on the Wal-Mart board for many years?
Hell I'd let them win too, no way I'm running afoul of dudes in maximum security prison!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=90&v=ZZeDq90Ar4k
You're really trying to portray Harvard as a place where the average undergrad simply bought their degree outright, and presumably has no business attending a world-class institution? Really? The legacy rule may be stupid, but speaking as if it dominates their entire undergraduate program sounds positively moronic. Plenty of rather brilliant people with no legacy have exited Harvard, including very recently.
Not to mention the admissions department doesn't simply tell the entire school what to do and who to accept for *everything*. Speaking as if not just the university at large but each and every club or intercollegiate team are beholden to legacies is doubly moronic. You truly believe the faculty who spend their time with the debate team care so little about their job they'll just accept every damn kid named Kennedy or Rockefeller with no regard to talent and waste their time chaperoning rich morons about the country losing debates right and left?
Legacy lets some idiots through, yes. Harvard gets ***WAY*** too much money, literally more than they know what to do with, while good state schools and smaller private schools get less than 1/10th as much endowment for far more students, yes. But they're not just a pile of cash-crazed morons who worship at an altar of solid gold and let the rich kids do *anything* they want. They're still a fantastic school.
Please note that counting Wal-Mart as a prison is not as ridiculous as it might sound--they have been known to lock workers inside the store:
Pretty sure Wal-Mart sells bolt cutters. Just sayin'
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
"..... and that concludes my opening statement. You got a problem with that, punk?"
Have gnu, will travel.
It's hard to debate a prisoner knowing they will knife you at any time.
but this all kind of sounds like the republican's idea of making your way through college...
"1) go to prison! 2) earn a degree! 3) PROFIT!"
but, sincerely, the best to those who've gone through this and made - and helped- their way to a better life. it sounds like it'd make a good movie!
p.s. "prison architect," anyone?
" liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work."
A liberal arts degree is infinitely better than no degree at all.
I'm glad to see prisoners getting a chance at education. One theoretical intent of prison is reform; our society hasn't done very well with that.
Sure, some prisoners are hopeless and would be a danger if ever released ... leave them inside. But give others a chance.
Have you always been psychotic? If so, clearly you've forgotten your meds. Otherwise, I suggest you see a healthcare professional specializing in the profoundly disturbed immediately.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
It sure doesn't. In fact, it may signal that you're dealing with an utter dolt:
George W. Bush. I rest my case.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
"... aims to provide inmates with a liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work."
Since when has a liberal arts education helped anyone find meaningful work?
You've pretty much got to do something about that first. It's a central tenant of Puritanism. Not sure how you deal with that. From a purely mechanical standpoint our economic right wing (e.g. the rich) noticed our religious right wing (e.g. blue collars) would throw their economic concerns to the wind for social issues. Stuff like Gun Rights, Abortion, Gay Marriage, etc, etc. We've pretty much defused Gun Rights (the left dropped it) and Gay Marriage (somehow or another they won that battle) but I'll be damned if I can figure out Abortion. There's a sizable portion of the population that strongly feels that you should be punished for any action that has negative consequences. That mistakes should hurt. That's pretty much Puritanism in a nutshell. And I don't know how to cure them of that feeling.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
The entrance standards and IQ bell curve for prisons aren't impressive. Harvard has very high standards (possibly the highest in the US, certainly in the top 4), particularly if daddy isn't an alumnus or a large $ contributor. At least on the surface, if my child were a losing Harvard debater I would question whether he was trying and whether his teachers were any good. A child not trying might not deserve the $70k investment. Incompetent professors certainly don't deserve my money, and I'd be looking for a better school.
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And leaving could also jeopardize the jobs of their coworkers:
I don't know if Walmart still does this:
This type of employee abuse should have been nipped in the bud by federal, state, or local labor authorities, but apparently it wasn't.
I would just kill to get into this program...
Apparently these are people who fear losing their jobs. Probably they have themselves and family members to support and don't think that they can easily get another job if they lose the one they have.
Oh, that is certain. Which is why the "locking them in" is pointless (I've certainly had deeply stupid managers in my life as well, but still: pointless). Telling someone he can't leave will keep anyone who cares about his job, chaining a door adds nothing at all to that.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Yeah, and if they used the bolt cutters to get out, they'd end up in a real prison.
Learn to love Alaska
Free doctor is the real deal with going to prison and before the ACA some broke the law just to get into the system.
TFA says it's inmates with violent criminal records in a maximum security facility.
I suppose Harvard students on their debate team are good academic performers and are out of the school in five years.
You have a lot more time for honing your skills on a prison debate team.
Lifelong learning FTW!
So, who were the judges?
"aims to provide inmates with a liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work"
Liberal arts education as a pathway to meaningful work?
That's like giving them a subscription to bacon-of-the-month club as a pathway to veganism.
Smoke my peg.
and have a lot of time on our hands.
We need a "+1 -- nice sig" moderation.
Reduced recidivism motivates the state to increase funding for inmate enrolment in such programs. Convicts are released more educated now, however, no private company hires them. The state thinks "gee, they're only people", so most rapists, murders, smugglers, etc end up in public offices. This goes on for a generation or two. Suddenly, there's a realization by the general public - criminals have taken over the country. Turns out nobody actually learned a lesson from being incarcerated and eventually there's a revolution in 2047. All prisons are opened, the country descends into chaos, regular people are a minority slowly being hunted down and public trials and executions are being performed. Religion thrives though. Eventually someone blows up a few nukes across the country. Now it's free for all (for those who survived anyway). Petrol is worth gold, water is worth platinum. Some police forces still exist, but their efforts are essentially futile due to the utter pandemonium that the country has turned into. Can it even be referred to as a country? 2056, somewhere in Arizona, officer Rockatansky is cradling his newborn son Max.
Give me a drink!
a liberal arts education? bwahahaha
you lost me with:
"aims to provide inmates with a liberal arts education so that when the students leave prison they are able to find meaningful work"
Among people with college degrees in the first place, that might be true if we consider places like Wal-Mart to be private run prisons.
Please note that counting Wal-Mart as a prison is not as ridiculous as it might sound--they have been known to lock workers inside the store:
I used to work in a place that was surprisingly prison-like. We all had to wear orange, could basically only do things when told to do it, conditions were dangerous, the entire facility was fenced in, had controlled access, people coming in were constantly searched for forbidden items, and it was constantly patrolled by armed guards. I used to work at an airport.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Cell phones, anyone? And I'd be quite surprised if the store land line didn't allow you to call 911. I mean, a guy with a broken ankle shouldn't be dragging himself to the ER anyway.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
Now instead of beating people to death, they just talk them to death! Hmmm sounds like perfect training for a high up Govt. job....
Life is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, it both blows and sucks
No, that's not how that works - false imprisonment is an actual crime, escaping it is not. Anyway, turns out here were fire doors the employees were told not to use. It's the fear of losing the job that keeps them there, not locking the doors. Locking the doors is just a braindead manager doing what they do best - making an ass of himself.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I only have experience in one prison and teaching only classes in statistics but a good many of the guys I come across have little or no education but are enormously intelligent.
A prison acquaintance committed a truly heinous crime when young, spent 30+ years in prison and earned batchelor's and master's degrees while incarcerated. All this without access to the internet or much in the way of books for resources.
The really painful part about teaching there is dealing with human capital that is going to waste.