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Consumer Reports Withdraws Its Tesla Model S Recommendation (consumerreports.org)

Posted by Soulskill on from the backing-up-the-hype-train dept.

An anonymous reader sends news that Consumer Reports, after earlier giving the Tesla Model S a perfect road test score, has now withdrawn its recommendation for the electric car after investigating its reliability. As part of our Annual Auto Reliability Survey, we received about 1,400 survey responses from Model S owners who chronicled an array of detailed and complicated maladies. From that data we forecast that owning that Tesla is likely to involve a worse-than-average overall problem rate. ... The main problem areas involved the drivetrain, power equipment, charging equipment, giant iPad-like center console, and body and sunroof squeaks, rattles, and leaks. ... Overall, squeaks and rattles appear to be the most prevalent complaint. But as one respondent commented, "The car is so very silent when driving that minor squeaks and rattles that you wouldn't be able to hear in a gasoline engine car become very annoying." The list of issues also includes more significant problems, which could be pricey to fix once out of warranty. Based on survey responses, Tesla has made a habit of replacing the car’s electric motors. The brake rotors tend to warp. And the door handles often fail to “present” themselves as drivers approach their cars.

37 of 222 comments (clear)

  1. My 93 Escort squeaks and rattles a lot by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 5, Funny

    Hearing those noises is reassuring - it tells me the part making the noise hasn't fallen off yet.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  2. The car is great to drive, but... by Strudelkugel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I always wondered how the door handles would work after an ice storm or freezing rain. I've dealt with my share of frozen car door locks, but at least I could get the handle to move. I think the touch screen console was a big mistake. You need to be able to manage things like climate settings, radio stations, etc. by touch. Forcing the drive to look at a screen for mundane things was a bad idea. I don't own a Tesla, partly because they are so new and I don't like the design elements I mentioned. But I have driven one. There are very few other cars that are as much fun to drive.

    --
    Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
    1. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by Moridineas · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the touch screen console was a big mistake. You need to be able to manage things like climate settings, radio stations, etc. by touch.

      Knobs and buttons in a car seem to be going the way of the dodo. It's a major pet-peeve for me--I can't stand the idiocy of car user interface design--they seem to be getting so much worse. Wife's Honda Odyssey has two screens (one touch, one not), and it's never clear which information will display where, the climate control is dreadful, tuning the radio is time consuming and attention-grabbing. It's just awful.

      Nice car though.

    2. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't own one because it's $100,000 for a damn car. Any $100,000 car is going to be unreliable - the whole reason it is $100,000 is because it is all gussied up with extra crap that can break.

      But when electrics become economically prudent I will probably get one. They should be mechanically simpler and I only commute 20 miles a day - my wife only goes 10 miles.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    3. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by Falc0n · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But in the Chevy Volt, for the 2nd gen (2016), the knobs and buttons have made a comeback. The space-age tactile feedback flat buttons were pretty well shunned by the community. And for good reason, they were clunky, and not usable in cold months with gloves on. I've owned the car for 3 years and for even simple buttons like seek takes an extra few seconds compared to other vehicles.

    4. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Yes, and the inevitable learning curve every new technology encounters.

      It takes a while to work out all the bugs during the incipient stage.

      I just always figured the wealthy are covering the R & D expenses in exchange for the Look what I got! conversation starter;

      so that, in the future, these become within the realm of affordable for us mere mortals.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    5. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      That's pretty much what the article says - the summary only cited the bad:

      The Tesla wasn’t the only high-performance vehicle that fell below average in reliability. Others include the BMW X5 and 5 Series, and the Chevrolet Corvette.

      When automakers roll out new technology, be it infotainment, transmissions, or engine variations, it often has a deleterious effect on vehicle reliability. Tesla is not only the poster child for a new type of high-performance, high-mileage EV, but it also has been adding complex new variations as assembly-line updates, such as all-wheel drive this year. So it’s not surprising to see problems continue to crop up.

      Despite the problems, our data show that Tesla owner satisfaction is still very high: Ninety-seven percent of owners said they would definitely buy their car again. It appears that Tesla has been responsive to replacing faulty motors, differentials, brakes, and infotainment systems, all with a minimum of fuss to owners.

      And Tesla’s attention to customer service has been effective. Almost every survey respondent made note of Tesla’s rapid response and repair time, despite the lack of a traditional dealer service network. For its early adopters, Tesla has made a practice of overdelivering on service problems under the factory warranty, as noted by these owners:

      “A minor amount of play developed in the differential gears. Tesla replaced the entire drive system. Remarkable service!”

      And:

      “Had a creaking ball joint in the driver[-side] front lower control arm. Tesla replaced it the following day after they were notified.”

      --
      The War of 1812... the good 'ol days when the federal government actually tried to save New Orleans.
    6. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      True, they will often look. The difference is the time needed to actually actuate the control. A quick glance is enough to get your finger on the right real button, because you can rely on touch to "zero in" on the control.

      With a touch screen, you have to keep your eyes off the road a lot longer, because there is no point at which you can rely on touch alone.

    7. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      Strictly speaking, you're probably right.

      However, you could build a very well designed car that is $100,000 which is only that expensive because it was built with the best possible parts and careful engineering. There's a lot of plastic shit in cars today where it might be better off with some good metal. Or even better, with a durable, lightweight, but absurdly expensive alloy.

      Not that I am saying that this describes a Tesla, of course.

    8. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by Solandri · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Knobs and buttons will always be best in cars for physically manipulated interface controls. The reason is pretty simple - cars move. When they move, they hit bumps that makes everything inside jiggle. Unless through a remarkable coincidence the mass, springiness, and dampening of your body, arm, and fingertip exactly matches that of the LCD display, this means your finger will move relative to the screen every time you hit a bump. This makes trying to precisely manipulate touchscreen controls in a moving car an exercise in frustration.

      Knobs and buttons are not just decorative. They support your fingers as you wrap them around the controls, effectively "docking" your fingers to the control. When the Shuttle or Soyuz capsule reaches the International Space Station, do they just kinda press up against the ISS and open the hatch? No. They dock the two with clamps which hold them together, then open the hatch. That's an extreme example because lives are at stake, but the principle is the same. By docking your fingers to the knob or button, you prevent your fingers from slipping around the control with every little bump you hit - your wrist and arm absorbs the relative motion of your body with the car, while your fingers remain stationary relative to the controls. Thus allowing you to precisely manipulate the interface in a moving, jiggling, bouncing car.

      Don't get me wrong, touchscreens have their place. They're especially good for arbitrary 2-dimensional inputs, like typing on a virtual keyboard or flinging a GPS map back and forth. But the designers who decided to make basic controls like the radio and climate control touchscreen-only were idiots too caught up in the hype over the latest trend to bother thinking about why traditional interface controls are built they way they are. They can be somewhat forgiven because they probably used their phone or tablet inside and car and thought it was great. But what they didn't realize was that when you use a touchscreen phone or tablet in a moving car, you're holding the device so it doesn't move relative to you. And so accurate touchscreen inputs are possible.

    9. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by lgw · · Score: 2

      It only take me a few milliseconds of glance to operate the center dash controls on my car by touch - volume, source select, temp, etc. Once my hand is in the right general area, the dash has a lot of tactile clues build in to guide my hand w/o looking and is safe to gently touch anywhere. I can fumble my way to the desired outcome quite reliably.

      I used to have an Audi where all the dash controls were smooth and uniform - not a touch screen, just a stupid style decision. It was very distracting. To do anything required taking my eyes of the road for a few seconds. It never felt safe. An actual touch screen seems even worse - heck, if there are actual menus to navigate it would be a menace. I don't want to have to win the video game in order to change the climate controls!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    10. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by ksheff · · Score: 2

      “A minor amount of play developed in the differential gears. Tesla replaced the entire drive system. Remarkable service!”

      meaning that Tesla's field service techs don't know how to fix that, so it's easier to just remove the entire thing, send it back, and let the factory rebuild the offending part for a new customer.

      I found these parts interesting:

      Based on survey responses, Tesla has made a habit of replacing the car’s electric motors. The brake rotors tend to warp.

      I thought low maintenance was a part of the EV-crowd's mantra. With regenerative braking, one wouldn't have to replace brake pads very often and especially not rotors. This sounds like a car that one would not like to have once it was out of the warranty period.

      --
      the good ground has been paved over by suicidal maniacs
    11. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by turbidostato · · Score: 2

      "Everyone I've ever watched touch a control in the center console turned and looked at it. Ride with someone. Watch their eyes"

      Probably yes.

      But the difference is, as a parent poster said, with physical knobs/buttons, people look at the controls just an instant, enough to reach it and then operate it without look at it. With touchscreens you need to look at them for the whole process. Ride with someone. Watch their eyes.

    12. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by rmdingler · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Like the light switch in the dark in the bathroom of a domicile of long habitation,

      a radio knob can be located in the dark of night on an unfamiliar interstate, on virtual autopilot, drinking truck stop coffee while needing to pee.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    13. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Throw more software at the problem. Oh! Now we need a faster CPU!

    14. Re:The car is great to drive, but... by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      It's entirely possible that in Tesla's service model it is cheaper to swap a part and recondition it in mass production than it is to train and pay a local technician.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  3. Reminds me of a stand up joke: by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Funny

    Comedian: "So I just spent $200 to fix my muffler."
    [Crowd cheers]
    Comedian: "No, no. It's a bad thing. It was so loud that I couldn't hear all the other things that were wrong with my car."
    "Now I'm going to have to spend $500 . . .
    . . .
    . . .
    "for a better stereo system."

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  4. Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That a car can fall this far this fast with little or no structural or locomotional changes says more about the raters than the ratee.

    1. Re:Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That a car can fall this far this fast with little or no structural or locomotional changes says more about the raters than the ratee.

      Why? When a new car is released, they typically rate it based on initial experience of the new model, and past experience with similar models from the same manufacturer. If reality proves it's not, they adjust the rating.

      What else do you expect them to do? Travel into the future and ask owners how reliable it's been over the last ten years?

    2. Re:Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by Tx · · Score: 2

      Seems a bit harsh. You can only go with the information available at the time. You're not going to be able to pick up on longer term wear-and-tear issues until the products have actually been around for a while. Now that that information is available, they've updated their opinion to factor it in. That seems eminently reasonable and honest to me. I guess they could refuse to give an opinion on anything until it has been around for a year or two...

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    3. Re:Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because they're a far more reliable source of information than the people who fall over themselves to fellate Musk?

    4. Re:Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Informative

      They deliberately rigged the Suzuki Sidekick to tip, by strapping weights on the side, then used an altered photo to make it look like it would tip without the weights, which never happened.

      Consumer reports is not ethical, and I don't listen to anything they have to say.

      If you want proof that their methods don't work, go look at their reports on dual-badged cars. Ford/Mazda co-ventures, Mitsubishi/Chrysler co-ventures. The cars will score very differently based on who sold them, unrelated to who made them. It proves an inconsistent subjectivity to the whole process, and the worthlessness of their polling methods and results.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    5. Re:Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I expect them not to rate it until it has a track record.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    6. Re:Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2

      Downgrading the 1984 Corvette because it wasn't an economy car was silly. I had one, and given the sort of car it was, fuel economy wasn't bad. What was bad was reliability. It was a new version, and many things were terrible. Air conditioner failed twice in 2 years, power steering failed, clutch master cylinder failed, horns failed, pressurized struts for hood and hatchback failed, instrument console failed, temperature sender connector failed, car barely passed emissions testing, radiator fan control failed, upper radiator hose failed, paint cracked, and much more that I can't remember at the moment. I owned it from about 1989 to 1993 (odometer range 70,000 to 100,000) and spent $6000 on repairs, taking my life savings down to almost zero. A terrible car.

      CR's car ratings have limitations that must be understood, and one big limitation is that they aren't enthusiasts. However, ratings from car enthusiast magazines are even more problematic; there's little attention to reliability and none to customer feedback. CR fills a niche, understand it and use it.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    7. Re:Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by tnk1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That works for the used cars, but not for the new ones.

      I think CR did the right thing. They made a recommendation based on the best information they could get at the time, and then when faced with conflicting experience which only time would have exposed, they changed their recommendation to fit new data.

      The fact is that despite the potential for mistakes, following someone's advice who has done the investigation is always a better strategy than the alternative.

      Now if their investigations are slanted or have crappy methodology, then by all means trash them, but don't do that for simply trying to provide good advice for an important purchase (ie. a new car) where they can't have the benefit of time, because once you have tried out a new car over time, it's no longer a new car.

    8. Re:Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yeah sorry. No. History doesn't actually bear out your story.

      [quote]It sued Consumer Reports the following year, and although they would settle out of court eight years later, Suzuki probably came out looking worse. The problem was that a Suzuki internal memo from 1985 surfaced, saying "It is imperative that we develop a crisis plan that will primarily deal with the "roll" factor. Because of the narrow wheelbase, similar to the Jeep, the car is bound to turn over." The Pinto-like paper trail would have surely been even more damaging if Suzuki hadn't already pulled the vehicle out of North America. Suzuki would eventually admit to having knowledge of 213 deaths and 8,200 injuries as the result of rollover, and would settle some 200 lawsuits.[/quote]

      http://www.carbuzz.com/news/20...

    9. Re:Says more about Consumer Reports than the car by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 2

      213 deaths and 8200 injuries due to rollovers.

      http://www.carbuzz.com/news/20...

  5. I'm not surprised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm not surprised. NADA wrote about their experience driving one for a year, and they experienced a lot of problems over that time. Their problems, like what CR indicates, were with drivetrain and touch screens mostly. Frankly, I don't even find anything about this concerning except the drivetrain problems. The only electric I'd be interested in would be a low-mid end model, which likely wouldn't have as much extra stuff to break (touch screens, pop out handles, etc.). However, if they can't even keep the drivetrain from breaking, that doesn't bode well for the lower models.

    I like Tesla, but I have a nagging feeling that what's going to happen is that one of these days Toyota or Honda or someone will start taking electric very seriously, and Tesla will be done. Toyota and others have experience and economies of scale that Tesla can't match.

  6. Growing pains for a young company by haruchai · · Score: 2

    Squeaks, rattles, door handles? oh, that can't possibly ever be fixed
    Yes, all those things are annoyances for owners but they'll be addressed. Did someone not get the 4 year bumper to bumper warranty? It's included in the sale.

    Motor and brake problems are more serious but again, nothing unfixable.
    However, the company has to work on improving its reliability quickly, before the launch of the Model 3.
    That's the car that's going to determine if Tesla has a future - and is far more likely to be the ONLY car someone owns.

    --
    Pain is merely failure leaving the body
    1. Re:Growing pains for a young company by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is when the 4 years are up and its $10,000 to fix a "minor problem"

      The resale value of a car with expensive repairs can go to near zero, fast, which will affect the price Tesla can demand for its new cars.

    2. Re:Growing pains for a young company by zlives · · Score: 2

      yeah if only they had a audio system in that 100K car

  7. More like "Politically Correct Reports." by ErikTheRed · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Consumer Reports does some good work tracking reliability ratings and some of their reviews are decent, but over the past several years they have weighted things so heavily towards environmentally "friendly" products (scare quotes because items that don't work well aren't really that friendly when they wind up in a landfill when you replace them with something that actually fucking works right) that their overall recommendations are pretty close to worthless.

    --

    Help save the critically endangered Blue Iguana
  8. I see through Tesla's scheme by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 5, Funny

    They aren't powered by electrity, but hampsters. Now hampsters normally are not enough to power a car, but put some snakes in with them, and they make orders of magnitude more energy trying to run away. This is the only possible reason you hear squeeks and rattles.

    --
    God spoke to me
  9. There Is A Single Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    When rotors warp there is a single answer as to why. They were not designed/manufactured thick enough. Don't blame driving styles or any bullshit like that. Brake rotors should be able to glow red and still not warp.

    But weight. But cost. But didn't think. But, driving style. These are all lame excuses for bad design. And when I pay $100,000 for a car, I expect proven technologies like disc brakes to be flawless!

    What this Consumer Reports article is telling me is that, most unfortunately, my plan to buy a used Tesla at a "reasonable" price is a very bad idea. Perhaps worse than buying a used British sports car. As in both cases, the problems will be frequent and the repair cost will be extremely high.

    1. Re:There Is A Single Answer by KGIII · · Score: 2

      Actually, you're probably correct.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  10. Re:Failure to Present by CaptainLard · · Score: 2

    Someone with a username like yours should probably already know the answer to such a question but I completely understand why that's the first thing that would come to your mind.

  11. Getting real: my real world Tesla experience by matthollingsworth · · Score: 2

    As a Tela owner: 1) Assembly quality lags BMW but is plenty good especially considering they have not been building cars for decades 2) Some people have had motor units replaced due to a whine. This isn't actually a motor issue or a reliability issue and doesn't affect the reliability at all. It's shim wear that is fixed by replacing the shim in the single gear transmission. Since the motor with gear is easily swapped in a few hours (free), I chalk this up as a minor issue that they will likely fix with a better shim 3) body hardware problems are going to be the same as other cars since they use the same designs as other cars for things like the sunroof. A lot of people are hoping that Tesla will stumble. This doesn't qualify as a stumble. I've had zero problems with my car. One of my friends had an immediate issue with his new Tesla that was fixed and since then nothing. Another friend (who accelerates flat out all the time) experienced the gear whine at 50,000 miles and Tesla swapped it for free quickly. Things that will last a lot longer than other cars: the brakes. Some people think they will last for the life of the car because most of the braking occurs by lifting your foot to decelerate (it recharges the battery by sending energy back from the motors into the battery). Usually you touch the brake at speeds less than 5 mph. The motor - there is only one moving part and no oil changes or lubrication required. The transmission - only one gear as opposed to the crazy complexity in gas cars. The cooling system - it operates at much lower temperatures to cool the battery than it would when trying to cool a hot engine. Spark plugs, air cleaners, ignition systems, etc - non-existant on the Tesla. There is no engine to "service" under the "hood". Switches? Almost everything is controlled by the huge touchscreen which means zero wear. Any software problems can be fixed over the cell connection that is free for life and virtually always connected. If that computer fails? Just swap the thin center touchscreen/computer assembly out in a few hours. Incidentally the sophisticated computer controlled all wheel drive with 500 treadwear base tires mean that there is quicker acceleration while maintaining minimal wheel spin on any surface which is safer and all this makes tires last longer and also avoids the need to rotate tires (based on my observations so far). My problems in the first 10,000 miles: zero. Did I mention that I’ve been driving for free on the free-for-life Tesla charging? Also I have been letting the car do 90% of my heavy traffic commuting here in LA since the recent release of Autopilot. It’s a revelation on the 405 in rush hour