Slashdot Mirror


DHS To Extend OPT To 60 Months, Says Employers, Universities, Students Demand It (natlawreview.com)

theodp writes: In August, Federal Judge Ellen Huvelle called BS on 'emergency' changes made by the U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security in 2008 to Optional Practical Training (OPT) that extended the amount of time foreign STEM graduates of U.S. colleges could stay in the country and work ("to alleviate the crisis employers are facing due to the current H-1B visa shortage," as Bill Gates explained it in 2007). "The 17-month duration of the STEM extension appears to have been adopted directly from the unanimous suggestions by Microsoft and similar industry groups," said the Judge in her ruling, which threatened to invalidate STEM OPT extensions in February. But the DHS fired back Monday with a new proposed rule — Improving and Expanding Training Opportunities for F-1 Nonimmigrant Students With STEM Degrees and Cap-Gap Relief for All Eligible F-1 Students — that will extend STEM OPT to as much as 60 months (a standard 12-month OPT period, plus two 24-month extensions). Foreign students demand it, explained the DHS, as do public colleges and universities, who "particularly benefit from the payment of tuition by foreign students, especially in comparison to the tuition paid by in-state students." DHS estimates that the proposed rule will affect 634,464 foreign STEM students over the next 10 years.

178 comments

  1. woah woah woah by ganjadude · · Score: 4, Informative
    hold the phone a second

    Foreign students demand it, explained the DHS, as do public colleges and universities, who "particularly benefit from the payment of tuition by foreign students, especially in comparison to the tuition paid by in-state students." DHS estimates that the proposed rule will affect 634,464 foreign STEM students over the next 10 years.

    so the schools are selling us americans out to foreigners because... surprise surprise they get paid more! And even worse the government is supporting that????

    where are all the "tuition is to high" americans at??? they need to stand up and say enough is enough

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    1. Re:woah woah woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "tuition is to high"

      "grammar is too low!"

    2. Re:woah woah woah by hawguy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      where are all the "tuition is to high" americans at??? they need to stand up and say enough is enough

      In theory, the high tuitions that foreign students pay keeps tuition lower for domestic students.

    3. Re:woah woah woah by tsm_sf · · Score: 1

      Which would be great if there were unlimited enrollment in class. Which there isn't.

      --
      Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
    4. Re:woah woah woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and then they enter into quid pro quo agreements with onshore outsourcing companies to illegally undercut American workers by supplanting them with the foreign students. It's a win-win for Capitalism all around!

    5. Re:woah woah woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... they get paid more.

      Let me get this straight: You're complaining that foreigners are buying American-made education, and they're paying full price for it! I'd understand a tirade against another way to import cheap labour, although after paying American prices for education, I doubt the graduates will be working on the cheap.

      My country literally declared pedophilia and music piracy as a matter of national security. I am horrified at this scope creep and the apathy of the national media regarding it. I'd have serious problems with the national security apparatus deciding which corporations could have foreign-worker visas.

    6. Re:woah woah woah by gumbi+west · · Score: 1

      This is pre-Adam Smith bull shit. Decreasing trade is not how you build the wealth of a nation. Basically, when an industry gets lots of high productivity workers added to it, this has the potential to simply increase incumbent worker salaries. That is, it could increase productivity of all workers to have a larger, more productive, workforce in place. There is a tendency to see this as a zero sum game but there is absolutely no evidence that it is.

    7. Re:woah woah woah by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      The only reason these turds wash up on American soil is because they are being sponsored by businesses that are hell bent on driving down wages; and with a uncaring detriment to the people that live here. With a billion dollars, there's nothing one cannot purchase; so what's this race to die with the most toys all about?

    8. Re:woah woah woah by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      With those that have college degrees working minimum wage jobs, it's creating a class of slaves.

    9. Re:woah woah woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >My country literally declared pedophilia and music piracy as a matter of national security.

      It is, to women.

      >In the United States, as late as the 1880s most States set the minimum age at 10-12, (in Delaware it was 7 in 1895).[8] Inspired by the "Maiden Tribute" female reformers in the US initiated their own campaign[9] which petitioned legislators to raise the legal minimum age to at least 16, with the ultimate goal to raise the age to 18. The campaign was successful, with almost all states raising the minimum age to 16-18 years by 1920.

      First thing CUNT women banned.

    10. Re:woah woah woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Er, no. No amount of optimization in capitalism results in lower costs; it increases profits.

      Apparently we're now selling hope to China and India because Americans have discovered it's hopeless and we need to keep up the charade somehow.

    11. Re:woah woah woah by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In theory, the high tuitions that foreign students pay keeps tuition lower for domestic students.

      BS. It doesn't work that way. Because of regulations, they can only charge state residents so much. So they charge others more. You're imagining some kind of "This is our total budget, so if others pay more, they pay less" scheme. Hahahaha. What world do you live in?

      It's just exactly greed, nothing more.

    12. Re:woah woah woah by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Isn't that how it's supposed to be in capitalist America? A university degree brings you economic benefit in the form of higher wages (in theory). Free market economics set the price, and foreign students are willing to pay more for the education and then work for less when they graduate. Why would Americans expect not to compete?!

      This is what happens when you turn the education of your country's youth into a for-profit business. The best part is that in 20 years time when you need a doctor you will get to pay even more than you do now, to cover those massive student debts they are carrying. It's win-win!

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    13. Re:woah woah woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And this is at a time when large companies are openly violating the law regarding H1-B by publicly stating they are laying off US workers in favor of H1-B's.

    14. Re:woah woah woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      most of them probably aren't paying that tuition anyways, so it's just a paper fund.

    15. Re:woah woah woah by BVis · · Score: 1

      Prom date wouldn't put out, I see.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    16. Re:woah woah woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BS to your BS claim. That actually is how it works. Nonresident students are charged more to compensate for the fact that they're ineligible for the state-funded portion of revenue. International students are often charged more on top of that to help defray other costs or increase financial aid funding.

      A university sets a budget, determines how much it will receive in state support (from the state budgeting process), how much it will generate from other sources (research, royalties, grants, service contracts), and the difference is charged to students in the form of tuition. Every extra dollar paid by an international students is a dollar that in-state students don't have to pay.

      Even at double or triple the normal rate, though, they're still too small a group to have more than a ~5% impact on in-state rates, so the effect is small.

    17. Re:woah woah woah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it is creating classy slaves.

    18. Re:woah woah woah by execthis · · Score: 1

      Except... load of shit.. because why does a country like Germany have the best universities which are all free to residents and non-residents. Having tuition is just bullshit and of course the grubby mofo's who run them want to capitalize on that and rake in as much cash as possible, American citizens be damned.

      I am *so* disgusted with Obama's failures and wholesale selling out of America.

      Donald Trump 2016

  2. Fuck You, DHS by sexconker · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Fuck You, DHS.

    1. Re:Fuck You, DHS by INT_QRK · · Score: 1

      Astute and insightful, indeed.

    2. Re:Fuck You, DHS by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      Fuck you too, Citizen.

      Oh, wait, that's precisely the point. Like most of the rest of the US government, part of the mandate of DHS is now protecting corporate interests like copyright and making sure they can have cheap foreign labor to drive down wages.

      Who's fucked now?

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    3. Re:Fuck You, DHS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck you too, Citizen.

      Oh, wait, that's precisely the point. Like most of the rest of the US government, part of the mandate of DHS is now protecting corporate interests like copyright and making sure they can have cheap foreign labor to drive down wages.

      Who's fucked now?

      Pretty much. And our government has the gall to make claims about Russia or China's corruption, but the reality is, our country is worse. We have the corruption AND significant world influence. Their corruption extends to their s****y countries, ours extends to the entire planet.

    4. Re:Fuck You, DHS by shadesofgreen · · Score: 1

      Why all this hate?

  3. DHS: for immigrant work visas? by rmdingler · · Score: 1

    Come on now. Sensibly, if you're going to be protectionist at all (ever), wouldn't it make a tiny bit of sense to keep your domestic intelligentsia engaged in active study and gainful employment?

    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

  4. Perfect sense by tuxgeek · · Score: 2

    "It all makes perfect sense, expressed in dollars and cents." .. Roger Waters

    --
    "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    1. Re:Perfect sense by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      It's effect is to drive down wages.

    2. Re:Perfect sense by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      Sorry - only a near rhyme and using a near-synonym, too. Lousy lyric...

      --
      That is all.
    3. Re:Perfect sense by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Pounds, shillings, and pence.

      I got the reference. I think the other that replied is not a fan.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    4. Re:Perfect sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other poster is probably critiquing the lyrics of Mr Waters, comparing with that of the poetic prose of the North American Negro:

      "Shit fuck nigga, shit fuck nigga, shit fuck nigga ... suck my dick masta .. "

      Who can compete with that? Sorry Mr Waters, your music just doesn't cut it any more, for some critics.

  5. US fucked visa system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The only reason for these ridiculous band aids is that getting a green card takes fucking forever and the standards for work visas are incorrectly set. A BA/BSc/BEng from Harvard and Podunk State are considered equal. It's no secret that American universities attract some of the smartest people on the planet, which is a unique advantage that the US has. Competition for top universities is fierce and pretty much manages to swoop in the top talent on the planet. The problem is then that the immigration system is not at all merit based. Someone with a degree from Harvard is on equal footing with a graduate from a completely unknown school which accepts everyone who can send them a check.

    The problem is that one should keep out people that are no better than what can be sourced among the local population. At the same time the immigration system needs to guarantee continuity for top students while quickly getting them to the point where they can stay permanently, which allow them to do things like start a family, buy a house etc. If the immigration system forces someone to move abroad even for a month there's a high chance they're not coming back.

    1. Re:US fucked visa system by amightywind · · Score: 0

      Why should America be a bolt hole for the monied elite of Asia when are own kids don't have a pot to piss in?

      --
      an ill wind that blows no good
    2. Re:US fucked visa system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Where did I mention the money elite of Asia? I said let the best students stay and with best I mean the ones that get into top schools and graduate with good grades. I specifically said that the immigration system should kick out the ones that can send a check, but have nothing else to offer.

    3. Re:US fucked visa system by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Why should America be a bolt hole for the monied elite of Asia when are own kids don't have a pot to piss in?

      Because the moneyed elite bring their money, skills, and connections with them, and create jobs here.

      You should read up on the Lump of Labor Fallacy. There is not a fixed number of jobs in the economy, and there is no zero-sum-game where a job to an immigrant means one less job for an American. Real economies don't work that way. More liberal immigration policies, especially for skilled people, have historically led to lower unemployment.

    4. Re:US fucked visa system by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      > Real economies don't work that way.

      It's not a one-to-one trade, because the immigrants charge less hourly but often require a great deal more training.

    5. Re:US fucked visa system by Niterios · · Score: 1

      I think you nailed this. I currently go to Yale and unfortunately many other international students are *terrified* of finding a means to stay in the US. This is idiotic! Most of us want to stay at least for a while, and I think a majority plan to make it permanent. It really is a no brainer: jobs in our home countries pay an order of magnitude less than the US and there is also no interesting work outside the US in many areas (like computer science). However, how can you separate Harvard from Podunk? SAT scores? Salary after graduation?

    6. Re:US fucked visa system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, the problem has always been how to differentiate applicants that are good. I don't think there's any better way of doing that than letting the job market do it through offered pay, since this is very hard to circumvent if the reason for the abuse is getting someone cheap. In the UK there's a monthly quota for visas, which essentially works by ranking people by their offered salaries and choosing the top. An issue with this would of course be that there is a large spread in salaries based on location in the US.

      One would probably need some pretty fine-grained scaling constant based on location to get a ranking that doesn't cause all visas to go to certain geographic areas (and if the visa holder moves, require that the new job would have paid enough to get them chosen from that area at the time of their application). There's also the question of not discriminating against certain professions... Someone with 20 years of experience in development work somewhere in the poorest parts of Africa coming to work for an NGO in NYC will be paid the same than a fresh grad software engineer gets at Google. That's probably not ideal. In other words, one would need to define subquotas for some professions too. However, it certainly becomes fairly complicated to design a simple set of rules that one can't lawyer around.

    7. Re:US fucked visa system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Elitist much?

      The H-1B / greencard / work visas are sponsored by the company. If a company decides that the skills of somebody from IIT Mumbai are equally valuable as those of somebody from Harvard, then why shouldn't they be allowed to sponsor the person from IIT Mumbai or Podunk?

      Also there may be students at Podunk U who can run circles around an average student from MIT or Harvard. Why do you think that just because somebody managed to get into Harvard or Yale, they're the best candidate for a given job or the most highly skilled?

    8. Re:US fucked visa system by BVis · · Score: 1

      You cannot allow offered pay to be a criteria here, at least in the USA. If you do that, there will be a race to the bottom in terms of who can pay the least. Even if you take the top X% (like I think you're describing in the UK), if the top 10% is at a 50% lower salary than was offered before, then the workers (continue to) lose.

      Companies don't compete for talent in the USA. The degree of collusion is IMHO way way WAY larger than people think. If WidgetCo pays $50,000, and CogsInc also pays $50,000, there is no competition in terms of salary. So long as nobody goes off the reservation and starts paying MORE, salaries do not increase. Supply and demand is only in effect if everyone plays fair. If supply is restricted, in theory prices should go up, but if nobody will pay higher prices, supply takes what they can get, no matter how small supply might be.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
  6. non-profit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whether public or private, every organization wants to take in more money and grow. So what does not-for-profit really mean then, when they're engaged in the same behavior.

    1. Re:non-profit by tomhath · · Score: 2

      So what does not-for-profit really mean then, when they're engaged in the same behavior.

      It means they want to make money so they can grow, or at least stay afloat. But the owners of the not-for-profit don't get to keep the profits; unless they happen to be employed by it and collect a 6 or 7 figure salary.

  7. Re:For a site full of liberals... by SeaFox · · Score: 1

    I'm sure we can find a person in another country to make comments as an AC for cheaper than you, too.

  8. Emergency! by ajzimm3rman · · Score: 0

    I know myself and a friend of mine would love to work at Intel. We live right over here...not in India.

    1. Re:Emergency! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know myself and a friend of mine would love to work at Intel. We live right over here...not in India.

      You probably did not graduate from an Ivy. Top companies only hire from the Ivies and a few nationally/regionally known schools. But if you have the technical skills AND are willing to become a foreign citizen and return as an H-1B visa holder, they might take you on, paradoxically.

  9. A Relevant Truth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Mao Zedong

  10. pushes wages down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    i imagine the problem of "employee shortage" could be fixed in the private market (via higher salaries) rather than by passing laws to bring in outside people to work for less...

    1. Re:pushes wages down by GrumpySteen · · Score: 2

      Except that the private market is the group that's pushing for the laws to allow them to bring in outside people to work for less.

      What broken train of logic makes you think the private market is going to suddenly stop doing that and start offering higher salaries to fix the imaginary shortage that they've made up in order to try and get those laws passed?

      Ooh, let me guess... you're a Libertarian, aren't you.

    2. Re:pushes wages down by BVis · · Score: 2

      We could start by either fixing the H1-B system (for example, actually enforcing the rule that H1-Bs must be paid the "prevailing wage" for a given market and skill set) or eliminate it altogether. Make it easier for people with skill sets valuable to US employers to get work visas that are NOT tied to one specific company, like the H1-B is. If they're not beholden to their employer for their status, then companies have to compete for them, the same as 'natural born' workers. Stop allowing employers to cheat the system.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
  11. Summary Achievement by willworkforbeer · · Score: 1

    Acronym Bingo!

    --
    Pretending this is my office full of bitter coworkers..
  12. Why do people dislike immigration ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Me, I dislike emigration. I want people to come here and stay here. Immigrants have already been schooled to 18+ and have the wherewithal to uproot themselves for a better life.

    If you're worried about competition, form an effective German-style union where both sides of industry care for long term business efficiency and want secure, motivated, skilled workers rather than a race to the bottom. Or start up your own business. If the country becomes so much more efficient that it needs proportionally less labour, said unions can negotiate a reduction in working hours.

    1. Re:Why do people dislike immigration ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We got too many ni66ers already.

    2. Re:Why do people dislike immigration ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Immigration, with limits, is just fine. This isn't really about immigration though, it's about temporary labor. This is about the system being gamed by some large corporations and corrupt politicians in order to drive down wages which fattens the profits of the corps involved but harms the country's economy and social well-being over time.

      If this was really about immigration, the immigrants would have to go through the official process. Then if they planned on staying here, they'd experience all the taxes and costs of living as the other citizens, which means they'd have to demand wages accordingly, which them makes the whole scenario unprofitable for the corporations. The only way this works is if the labor is temporary, meaning the employees will live frugally and leave after a little while, funneling all of their earnings back to their home country where it buys a lot more than here. Temporary labor is easier to abuse, with the threat of deportation. This means they're more obedient and less likely to put up a fuss when their rights are violated. Big Money likes slave labor, always has.

      Politicians complicit in these crimes should be removed from office and tried as traitors to their own country.

    3. Re:Why do people dislike immigration ? by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Me, I dislike emigration. I want people to come here and stay here. Immigrants have already been schooled to 18+ and have the wherewithal to uproot themselves for a better life.

      If you're worried about competition, form an effective German-style union where both sides of industry care for long term business efficiency and want secure, motivated, skilled workers rather than a race to the bottom. Or start up your own business. If the country becomes so much more efficient that it needs proportionally less labour, said unions can negotiate a reduction in working hours.

      There may be people who dislike immigration period. But most of the conservatives hate illegal immigration. And most of the democrats then like to conveniently leave the word illegal out or change it to something that sounds less like illegal. The truth of the matter is that many H1bs are here illegally, because the companies that hired them, their visa lawyers and they themselves lied and colluded to get a job when many, many Americans were available and willing to work the job for the right amount of money (ie, the prevailing wage).

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    4. Re:Why do people dislike immigration ? by Bill+Dog · · Score: 1

      Next there'll be no bank robbers, just undocumented withdrawers.

      --
      Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
    5. Re:Why do people dislike immigration ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that Indians are practically not allowed to get Green cards anymore... EB2 and EB3 are backlogged by more than 10 years, moving 1 week per month, so at best you'll be getting a GC by retirement. Non immigrant visas are the only options for those from India (and to some extent China)

    6. Re:Why do people dislike immigration ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But most of the conservatives hate illegal immigration.

      Except when hiring maids and gardeners.

      And people to work in their chicken-processing factories.

    7. Re:Why do people dislike immigration ? by naris · · Score: 3, Insightful

      H1B and similar laws such as this one are not about immigration. They are about importing what is effectively slave labor that have to work long hours for little money, for the same company, or risk getting deported.

    8. Re:Why do people dislike immigration ? by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      But most of the conservatives hate illegal immigration.

      Except when hiring maids and gardeners.

      And people to work in their chicken-processing factories.

      I'm sure that makes a good argument, but what proof do we have that it is true? I personally have never hired a maid or a gardener at all, and neither has any of my friends, who mostly happen to be conservatives. I'm pretty sure most of the more well-to-do conservatives don't hire illegals either. They hire legitimate gardening services (or mow their own lawns. You don't get rich by writing a bunch of checks). Perhaps some of those gardening services employ illegals, but the responsibility for ensuring that a gardening service does not hire illegals is the governments responsibility, not the customers.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  13. bullshit again.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So,, lets get this straight.. People whom sign up for a program, knowing the limitations of the program, are now demanding it be extended with the root cause being money..

    stoopid

  14. Re:For a site full of liberals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree. theodp is akin to a white nationalist and slashdot keeps posting his anti-immigrant crap to the front page.

  15. Re:For a site full of liberals... by jedidiah · · Score: 1

    Did you even read the summary?

    This program specificially has "non-immigrant" in it's title and it's intended to take up the slack for another non-immigrant program (namely H1-B).

    A "guest worker" is by definition not an "immigrant".

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  16. H-1B is bullshit by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    99% of the H-1B circus is bullshit.

    Are you really telling me that in this entire country there isn't anyone with the skills to fill that job? BULLSHIT.
    This is probably even true at a state level, and also probably true at a local level as well.

    Maybe if you're looking for something really esoteric, but a programming job or skill? Sorry, I call BULLSHIT.

    It's nothing more than a way to get cheap, compliant labor while simultaneously driving down wages and sucking up tax breaks. I live a few miles from Microsofts Redmond campus, trust me when I say that I know what I'm talking about.

    The entire H-1B program should junked and redone so that only TRULY "unfindable" skills or candidates would qualify.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    1. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There is certainly a demand in the upper echelons with respect to skill and talent. There is certainly someone who can do the job, but the problem is that they probably already have a job. For jobs in Finance where firms look to hire people that are at the level of being among the top graduates from top schools in mathematics, we are talking about a fairly small bunch, which is very small if you discount foreign students. Unfortunately, with all the Indian outsourcing firms hoarding the H-1B visas, they visas currently do not go to these people.

    2. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you really telling me that in this entire country there isn't anyone with the skills to fill that job?

      Yes, there are no Americans willing to do high level systems design work for minimum wage. They all want what are called prevailing wages, something which greedy corporations are unwilling to pay.

    3. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Shados · · Score: 1

      For programming its pretty common. For a lot of the northern states, Canada is closer than going across the country. TN1 visa is okay, but people eventually want something more permanent for quality of life (TN1 makes it hard to own property, for example), so a lot of H1Bs go to Canadians.

      And with all the startups in Cambridge, NYC, etc, its VERY hard to build a team of any significant size, even if you're allowing remote workers, pay for relocation, etc.

    4. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And with all the startups in Cambridge, NYC, etc, its VERY hard to build a team of any significant size, even if you're allowing remote workers, pay for relocation, etc.

      Illegal use of foreign grad students and cut-rate H-1B wages makes up for not wanting to pay for American talent!

    5. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Top startups are paying pretty damn well, so this has nothing to do with not paying enough. I work for Google and we lose engineers to them all the time despite already paying these people well. We also pay exactly the same salaries for US citizens as we do for foreigners, their immigration status has no impact on pay. I only hear this BS about there being abundant talent from people who have worked for mediocre companies. Actually hiring very talented engineers at a fast pace is pretty darn difficult, since whenever you find one, they tend to have offers from multiple companies. It's actually a pretty simple mathematical fact that if whenever you find a good candidate, the candidate has a bunch of competing offers, then there are more open positions than there are applicants.

    6. Re:H-1B is bullshit by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      re "99% of the H-1B circus is bullshit."
      The origins of the ideas surrounding the lax, well funded international student enrolment go back to the Cold War. The US wanted to accept, educated and pump out as many skilled people from different nations as it could. They would return home with first hand experiences of freedom, democracy, advanced US science, the big US brands and US only methods.
      Some of then on average given a good US degree would infect their city, lower or higher government positions with ideas about US projects and close links with the USA. A lot of nations would slowly buy US products and services based on the skills their own internal experts.
      Later US multinationals got the idea to use the same methods to swap out local engineers/high skilled/high cost with lower cost, more controllable 'guest workers'.
      Great for generational share holders, the low cost worker and short term stock price for the management pay scale.. Not so good for skilled local people with top grades and expensive advanced degrees who helped build the US brand over the years.
      The next trick is to have free global movement of a bands data cloud and tax. The "programming job or skill" can then be found in nations like Ireland, UK, France, Germany, EU, Pakistan, India, New Zealand on low tax campuses where graduates are at a lower cost that can feed back into back end, secure US work.
      What will be left in the USA? Politically connected upper management, legal and tax experts, cleared security experts, mil grade contractors with deep connections. ie legal fronts with all the paper work to pass as 100% legal US firms enjoying no bid contracts for mil and gov projects. The work will be sub contracted back to other risky nations and US paper work submitted that the brand or firm is secure for all mil/gov projects.
      The real magic is getting people to think its all about trendy freedom :)

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    7. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Harlequin80 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually there are lots and lots of jobs where a particular skillset won't exist in the local market. This often comes about when an industry expands rapidly. One example would be the shale gas growth in the US. While there were people who had experience mapping the reservoirs locally there would have been a ridiculous shortage of people who would be genuinely able to do the work at the level required. It simply was impossible for the local market to supply those people as they weren't needed at all 10 years ago.

      It's not even a case that if I offer more money I can get one. It is the case that there are 100 jobs but only 75 people who can do it. And if it takes 20 years to be able to do that job it doesn't matter how much money I offer there will still be 25 jobs un-filled.

      This actually happens a lot more than you might think.

    8. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So why are people being laid off and forced to train their H-1B replacements before they go? Disney pretty much disproves your story of it all by themselves.

    9. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      99% of the H-1B circus is bullshit.

      Are you really telling me that in this entire country there isn't anyone with the skills to fill that job? BULLSHIT.
      This is probably even true at a state level, and also probably true at a local level as well.

      Maybe if you're looking for something really esoteric, but a programming job or skill? Sorry, I call BULLSHIT.

      It's nothing more than a way to get cheap, compliant labor while simultaneously driving down wages and sucking up tax breaks. I live a few miles from Microsofts Redmond campus, trust me when I say that I know what I'm talking about.

      The entire H-1B program should junked and redone so that only TRULY "unfindable" skills or candidates would qualify.

      The condition for H1B is that there isn't anyone local you can find in 30 days of advertising.

      Sure, there might be lots of local people with the skill but they are all working. Sure, there might be someone in California with that skill but he doesn't want to move.

      Yeah, you know because you see all that brown skin and know what you're talking about. The CEO of Microsoft was once on H1B - is he a cheap compliant CEO?

    10. Re:H-1B is bullshit by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Shale gas exploration is definitely an extreme case because it is guaranteed to only be allowed to happen where there are practically no people whatsoever. Lots of people I know where I am from are involved in gas exploration and they go up to Minnesota and work for months at a time. That is a long way away from here, but the company pays it and pays them well. This is an example of the system working. There are people in the U.S. who have skills and there is a need for such skills in another part of the U.S., so the company pays a big premium to get the people where they are needed. If we let them hire H1bs then we would have unemployed Shale gas exploration specialists in various areas all over the country, not being able to find work or afford to move to where work is.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    11. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Over 90% of the population is against the corpolitical establishment we have right now; look at congresses approval rating. A country can't stand like this, it either balkanizes or rebels and the revolution Trump has wrought is very real; sacred pigs are going to get slaughtered.

      All this H1B nonsense has created a really bad personnel shortage; do captive workers have incentive to constantly improve themselves? And what happens when you take that away from the market in general? What happens when you really do need a senior guy with lots of experience with different technologies and a history of success? That one senior guy can easily do the work of 100 inexperienced H1B's, they are not anywhere near equal to an ivy league degree. What we need are lots of people with those kinds of experiences being the norm in IT, and super-senior people managing them; companies find it impossible to do that because of the labor shortage they have created.

      The Tech market is a circus; it's held together by copyright, the ability to monopolize and institute oligopoly, vendors locking in workers by training them to use ambiguous poorly documented systems, and the fact source code is closed. Linux is eating Microsoft alive right now as the market has determined it's too expensive to maintain MS. We have horrible security problems because nobody cares about doing a good job anymore. The market is circling the drain and what will come out the other end is a bunch of hulking wrecks.

      Get out and start donating to political parties and special interest groups to get these laws undone. The meritocracy of the IT market itself is at stake.

    12. Re:H-1B is bullshit by swillden · · Score: 2

      Top startups are paying pretty damn well, so this has nothing to do with not paying enough. I work for Google and we lose engineers to them all the time despite already paying these people well.

      Yep. The challenge for companies like Google (my employer also) is that they can't offer the candidate a chance at becoming a multi-millionaire, and the startups can. Google can offer to pay $200K in salary + bonus + stock grants, but a startup can offer $100K + stock options that will probably expire worthless, but have a non-negligible chance of being worth $50M. Especially for younger engineers who don't yet need to support family, etc., it makes a lot of sense to hop from startup to startup for a few years, just to see if they strike it rich.

      We also pay exactly the same salaries for US citizens as we do for foreigners, their immigration status has no impact on pay.

      The H1B program requires that. I suspect a lot of lower-tier companies do actually find ways to work around it, but I really doubt any of the big players do. It's too much risk over what is -- to the company -- a fairly trivial amount of money. Google expects to generate revenues of about $1M for each employee, so it makes no sense to engage in legally-risky behaviors to save, say $30K in salary.

      I strongly suspect that H1B hires cost Google more than a similarly-qualified US citizen, because in addition to paying the same salary, the company also has to spend a lot of money on the legal processes, plus international relocation, etc.

      It's actually a pretty simple mathematical fact that if whenever you find a good candidate, the candidate has a bunch of competing offers, then there are more open positions than there are applicants.

      Exactly. When you need to hire 1000 (say) excellent engineers per year, but your recruiters can only find 10 qualified local candidates per week, you have to cast a wider net.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    13. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think anyone disputes that the H-1B system is currently abused to replace workers with cheaper ones. This whole debate is like a religious fundamentalist and an atheist arguing with each other about the existence of a god. Here are three facts:

      1. There are plenty of jobs where there is a shortage of workers, e.g. everyone above a certain level of skill in an area is already employed.

      2. The H-1B system is primarily being (ab)used to bring in people that are cheaper, not people you can't find.

      3. Without the H-1B there would be practically no way of hiring people that fit into the category (1).

      Before someone shouts O-1 and Green Cards trying to dispute (3), the fact is that to get an O-1 you need to show that you've "risen to the top of your field" according to very strict definition provided by USCIS. The way to prove this is typically done by counting academic publications. If your work has not been public or published, then it's impossible to prove, since you need to get your qualifications verified by independent parties. However, having made something that is important to a particular company won't qualify; a startup relying on some open source project in its infrastructure typically would not be able to hire the founder of that open source project on an O-1, so it won't even apply in situations where a foreigner is clearly the best candidate. Green cards on the other hand take too long to get (2+ years), so no person with skills in demand is willing to wait for it.

      What is the solution then? I personally would be happy to see the H-1B scrapped. However, there would have to be some sort of visa that would be in difficulty somewhere between the H-1B and the O-1. The O-1 is mainly designed for professional athletes (NHL, NBA...), high-ranking managers (C?? level) as well as senior level faculty at good universities. A fresh engineering Ph.D. from Stanford or MIT will in almost all cases not qualify for an O-1 and I'm pretty sure most people agree that it won't make sense to kick these people out.

    14. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since you seem to be happy of keeping Ivy League people, speaking as an Ivy League Ph.D. that also won the award for best Ph.D. thesis at my school, the current H-1B fiasco has actually made it impossible for me to continue working here. I work for one of the top tech companies, but my F-1 OPT runs out in January. I managed to be among the unlucky few that did not get selected in the H-1B lottery despite two attempts.

      After having missed the H-1B lottery the first time, my employer immediately started the process of getting an EB-2 green card. However, as part of that filing you have to go through a process called PERM, where your employer needs to prove that there are no qualified US workers that could handle your job. A few applications get randomly picked by a computer for an audit and this lottery I did happen to "win" in. Currently, if your case gets audited, due to funding/staffing shortages at the Department of Labor, it takes them 2 years to do the audit. Since my case got audited, my PERM won't be certified by January, so my employer can't file for my green card on time and I'm forced to leave to one of engineering offices in Europe (I'm European).

      This is really a lose-lose, since essentially I'm taking my salary with me outside the US. At the same time the European office is much smaller and doesn't have as many interesting projects, so I lose the networking opportunities provided here...

    15. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the thing they sell them to us for being for those Top of the Class hard to find Math Graduates but instead give them to people to work in IT contracting or Software.

    16. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work for the biggest private company in the world and they pay their H1B's $56k for 5 solid years of programming experience and believe me, their skills are only unfindable in the U.S. at that pay rate & experience. Oh yes, the biggies play the game too.

    17. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Harlequin80 · · Score: 1

      That would be for the site based roles. But there are a lot of office based roles as well. Geophysicists, reservoir engineers, production engineers, geologists etc which don't go out to the sites that much. Quite a few of them are based in Houston even though their sites might be on the other side of the country. There aren't enough of those people in the country to fill those roles, let alone the ones which require tough working conditions.

      You also see the same in things like civil infrastructure engineering. If a large program of works is signed off then there is often a shortage of people like structural engineers or detail designers. It is one of the major challenges for design consultancies is that they can only grow their workforce to meet the base load work that comes out of governments and councils. So when there is a big capital injection for new roads or land development or water treatment then they often do not have access to people to do the work.

      As for H1Bs causing unemployment in O&G fields it simply isn't true. Firstly you need to make sure that you have the right type of geological experience. Most of the cheaper areas of the world have carbonates deposits where as shale is almost exclusively clastic in nature. This means that you can't bring the experience in from places like India because it simply doesn't transfer. You are limited to places like Australia & Canada which aren't known for their cheap labour.

      Then on top of that you have small teams of highly experienced people dealing with very large budgets. Keeping that team working well together is critical. If you are importing people from OS you always run the risk of importing cultural problems. Again if we stick to the Indian sub-continent for source people you can get caste issues which people in the west simply don't understand or perceive.

      Don't take this though as me saying the H1Bs are not abused. They clearly are and the US set up for immigration is fucked. There are too many loop holes in one area and too extreme in others. The system needs to be simpler, clearer and more easily policed. The penalties for gaming the system should also be so severe the company would never consider it.

      That said I would have thought that if you allowed foreign students into the country, they attended US universities at full cost, and then got high level degrees that these are the type of people you would want to stay in the country. Being highly educated they are likely to be above the average in income and hence tax payers, and because they paid for their education themselves without subsidy they are low cost. Perhaps I am missing something but keeping your post grads seems to me to be a good thing.

    18. Re:H-1B is bullshit by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      That doesn't apply today; and to be truthful it goes back to when the first human wanted something better in life; that's a long time ago. So businesses hire these folks by the boat load and dump them into the U.S. economy. And for those that say there isn't an American that can do the job? They're not in a crowd of shoppers at WalMart. They're cowards.

    19. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Americans are going to be xenophobic enough that noone should immigrate there, (which is what your proposed H1B leads to), jobs will move out of US

    20. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Required+Snark · · Score: 1

      All you've demonstrated is the Google brainwashing works really well.

      --
      Why is Snark Required?
    21. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the companies whine year after year saying they're spending so much time trying to find anybody and lobbing the government instead of spending a dime on hiring someone almost good enough and then training them to be great. The cost of doing that is less than the cost of constantly searching. The companies create the problem (getting a university degree is not job training) and will never get rid of it because the only people who match their descriptions 100% are liers.

    22. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Linux is eating Microsoft alive right now as the market has determined it's too expensive

      SystemD is here to cure that.

    23. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >If Americans are going to be xenophobic enough that noone should immigrate there, (which is what your proposed H1B leads to), jobs will move out of US

      Any manager of a US company moving jobs out of the USA because they can't use H1Bs anymore is a traitor. Traitors, traditionally, are executed. Traditionally by torture.

    24. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually there are lots and lots of jobs where a particular skillset won't exist in the local market

      Actually this means employers have gotten a lazy sense of entitlement, and expect new employees to have the exact skillset they're looking for. As opposed to how things used to work, with this ancient concept known as "on the job training." You can't find a programmer that is fluent in COBOL, C#, Java and assembly? Find someone who can do some of what you ask for and train him on the rest.

      So, yeah, H1B is still bullshit.

    25. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IF America was to return to its traditional roots (how native Americans and Amish live), noone would want to immigrate there anyways... You can consider todays America, or traditional America, but dont mix the 2

    26. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've ever gone to a top school and seen how good some people are in math, you know that you simply can't train someone to do that they can do. The problem is of course, that there is no other visa these people can get than the H-1B and the H-1B is currently not going to them.

    27. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For programming its pretty common. For a lot of the northern states, Canada is closer than going across the country. TN1 visa is okay, but people eventually want something more permanent for quality of life (TN1 makes it hard to own property, for example), so a lot of H1Bs go to Canadians.

      And with all the startups in Cambridge, NYC, etc, its VERY hard to build a team of any significant size, even if you're allowing remote workers, pay for relocation, etc.

      Not all that many corporations do allow remote workers. Unless, of course, they're working remotely from Bangalore.

      The halls of local companies are crowded with people who can barely speak English. But when they post ads, it's always "No Remote Work" or at best "Work with Remote Teams". Meaning, you cannot work remotely, but "teams" can. And anyone who wants to wager that those "teams" are in Baxter, GA, please place your bets now.

    28. Re:H-1B is bullshit by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      US schools should teach Hindi. I've noticed that lots of these job applications have requirements like "fluent in Hindi", so it's clearly an in-demand skill for US workers to have. I can't imagine why, but if that's what they want...

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    29. Re:H-1B is bullshit by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2

      You are limited to places like Australia & Canada which aren't known for their cheap labour.

      Which is what it's really always about, isn't it? Despite all your whining about "unavailable people". It's still all about "unavailable at the price I want to pay".

      --
      That is all.
    30. Re:H-1B is bullshit by swillden · · Score: 1

      What, specifically, do you think I'm misperceiving?

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    31. Re:H-1B is bullshit by naris · · Score: 2

      The condition for H1B is that there isn't anyone local you can find in 30 days of advertising.

      This "condition" is routinely bypassed, mostly by advertising ludicrous requirements that are impossible to meet.

      skill

      It is a myth that H-1Bs are about obtaining skilled workers. Most of the H-1B personnel I have worked with don't have any actual skill. Some do have real skills, but they are the exception, not the rule.

    32. Re:H-1B is bullshit by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      US schools should teach Hindi.

      Schools these days barely teach English, I'm not sure they're capable of teaching an actual foreign language.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    33. Re:H-1B is bullshit by BVis · · Score: 1

      The fact that the H1-B program requires the visa holders to be paid the prevailing wage. Oh, sure, that's what it says on paper, but since it's almost never enforced (a claim which can be substantiated by the fact that US employers are willing to participate in the program, which would not happen if they couldn't pay these people less) it's meaningless. Perhaps some companies (like yours) play by the rules and pay the H1-Bs the same as a native worker, but I would bet the farm that 99% of all H1-B visa holders in the USA are paid at least 10-20% below the true "prevailing wage".

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    34. Re:H-1B is bullshit by BVis · · Score: 1

      Find someone who can do some of what you ask for and train him on the rest.

      Why do you hate America? That costs money.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    35. Re:H-1B is bullshit by swillden · · Score: 1

      The fact that the H1-B program requires the visa holders to be paid the prevailing wage. Oh, sure, that's what it says on paper, but since it's almost never enforced (a claim which can be substantiated by the fact that US employers are willing to participate in the program, which would not happen if they couldn't pay these people less) it's meaningless. Perhaps some companies (like yours) play by the rules and pay the H1-Bs the same as a native worker, but I would bet the farm that 99% of all H1-B visa holders in the USA are paid at least 10-20% below the true "prevailing wage".

      That doesn't contradict what I said.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    36. Re:H-1B is bullshit by BVis · · Score: 1

      The H1B program requires that.

      This is what you said, which I am definitely contradicting. As I said, that's what it requires on paper, but in the real world it isn't enforced. Any rule you can't (or won't) enforce is no longer a rule.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    37. Re:H-1B is bullshit by swillden · · Score: 1

      I also said that lots of companies work around it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    38. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the OP Googler, the problem is that H-1B "prevailing wage" requirements are set based on geographic areas, which are way too big. For example Silicon Valley is not one area, but the prevailing wage is computed based on an area that includes Sacramento and areas even further away. The requirements are also not defined by having to pay the same as you would pay others in your company. You only need to pay more than the average for the profession for all companies in the area. What this means is that most tech companies could pay H-1Bs salaries that are very low. Another problem is that health insurance and other benefits gets taken into account in the salary that is sent to the Department of Labor, so the actual salary that you have to pay is really very low.

      On the other hand, Google, Facebook and other top companies do pay H-1B holders the exact same as they pay US citizens. You're right that it actually costs them more to hire an H-1B, since they need to pay for lawyers etc. What I would really like to see is the prevailing wage calculation being fixed, so that the minimum salary would go up significantly. One could even require that the salary is, say, 30% higher than the prevailing wage, since if someone's skills are in need, they would be paid more than the prevailing wage. Even better would be moving to a monthly quota for H-1Bs and each month rank applicants based on their offered total compensation and just choose the top. This would allow Google, Facebook and other top companies to get every foreign engineer they want easily, while essentially driving the Indian outsourcing companies out of business. A monthly quota would also remove the problem that H-1Bs are available ones a year, so if you can't get it, you're forced to wait a whole year for a new attempt.

      Another rule that I would like to see implemented is completely removing quotas for PhD's that had their degree funded by the US tax payers. A typical PhD takes some 250k in funding, so it would make no sense to invest that money and then kick out the person. This would also be a pretty safe rule that would be impossible to game, since only good schools provide full ride scholarships.

    39. Re:H-1B is bullshit by swillden · · Score: 1

      That's one approach. Another is that we could dump all this H1B crap and just issue work visas to anyone who wants to come. That's my preference, though I'm one of those wild-eyed libertarians who doesn't believe that where you were born should affect where you are allowed work. Crazy, I know.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    40. Re:H-1B is bullshit by godrik · · Score: 1

      Frankly, I don't know. If you are looking at statistics [1], the unemploymenet in young graduates is only 5%. When you account for the ones between two jobs and the ones that falls in the category "the guy graduated but you really wonder why", it seems to me that the jobs are filled. So I can buy the argument that there is a shortage of talents.

      Now, how this is managed by the H1B process and the OPT is dubious. (I am on H1B right now, and I find the status is weird.) I work in a univesity, and our graduates (domestic and international) pretty much all find jobs.

      [1] I could only find that which is a 2012 statistics. Would love more recent statistics. http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/ar...

    41. Re:H-1B is bullshit by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      I think that 99% of the typical programmer or developer jobs could be filled from within the US, frankly.

      More specialized jobs (i.e. biomedical research positions) are more difficult to fill domestically, but if you look at the majority of positions H-1Bs are used for, it's hard to deny that there are almost certainly plenty of qualified applicants available in the US.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    42. Re:H-1B is bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually hiring very talented engineers at a fast pace is pretty darn difficult, since whenever you find one, they tend to have offers from multiple companies.

      Oh, right, your employer got caught in collusion with the other big employers fixing wages and having no-poaching agreements. Maybe there are some very talented engineers who don't want to work for a soul crushing corporate parasite.

  17. just by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Educating the people we will have to fight later.

  18. WTF??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So essentially they will extend OPT to give people more time to get a H-1B...so that they can apply for a green card. i.e. 10+ years stuck in the same company trying to get through the process.

    I have an idea - why can't we just simplify the green card process and get rid of this bloated BS which does nothing but give employers "loyal" workers? Have simple salary or education cutoffs, high enough to protect US workers whilst still allowing the highly skilled and motivated a way in (120K or PhD). Would that be too hard?

    1. Re:WTF??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because people who get the green card and actually live here wind up on the same playing field as the local talent, and require similar pay to survive. This is all about lowering wages, plain and simple. Green-carded employees don't achieve that goal.

  19. DESIGNATED by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you really want to train and hire people from a country that can't even figure out plumbing?

  20. Re:For a site full of liberals... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why just one person? I can post a job on Mechanical Turk and get you thousands of (illegible) sniping commenters for less than $1/hour.

  21. The argument goes by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    that this will reduce tuition paid because the foreign students subsidize local students. As someone trying to come up with the money to send a kid to college I know full well this is bullshit, but what can I do? 30 years of Reagenomics and Starve the Beast means anyone not in the top 10% is boned...

    Wish we could do something about it, but good luck. Nobody gives a shit. Hell, us techies laughed at the blue collar folks while they were losing their jobs overseas. We kept voting in right wing free trade jerks and telling them to 'retrain!'. Why the hell should we expect them to give a fuck now.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:The argument goes by ganjadude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      dont blame reganomics for the high cost of school. blame salle mae and guaranteed student loans

      look at the charts, as soon as the feds guaranteed they would pick up the tab, prices started going up and up and up. The schools have no reason to care how you do when you get there because YOU arent paying them, the government does. They dont care that you get stuck paying the government back for years afterwards.

      if you are going to go off on "right wingers" at least go after them for legit reasons, this one has nothing to do with them

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    2. Re:The argument goes by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      Try getting the vote out. That in itself is what will change things.

  22. Just double tax the bastards. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just make sure that non immigrant workers pay 2x Social Security, 2x Federal Income Tax and 2x State Income Tax with no Income tax forms to fill out, they don't get anything back any where or any time. They don't get to draw on social security, any kids they have don't get it either.

    Want to piggy back on our economy and healthcare (as shitty as it is, it's still better than other nations'), then you pay through the nose.

    If they ever decide to become a citizen, their benefits start once they've been nationalized, everything up to that point, is gone for them.

    1. Re:Just double tax the bastards. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Xenophobe (noun)

      def:Synonym for American

    2. Re: Just double tax the bastards. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We actually don't pay for social security for 5 years while being here . Because we don't benefit from it :)

  23. The Presidential Candidate against H1-B by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The only candidate addressing the bullshit that is the H1-B program is Trump.

    1. Re:The Presidential Candidate against H1-B by naris · · Score: 2

      That's not true. As can be seen in a comment above, there are 2 candidates against H1-B. The wacky Republican (Trump) and the wacky Democrat (Bernie Sanders).

  24. Re:For a site full of liberals... by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    Slashdot sure is anti-immigrant. One may even say *gasp* bigoted...

    There are a a lot of idealists on slashdot. Unfortunately, just like in IT, the code that works perfectly under clean room, vetted data situations doesn't work so well in the real world. Everybody on slashdot is in favor of taxing the rich, but when the government looks at them and says "okay rich man, hand over your wallet", they all act surprised.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  25. No shortage on skilled labor for IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    With the 10,000's of jobs that IT staff have lost to whole departments being relocated to India, I seriously question the claim of shortage of skilled IT labor. What they're short on is people to work for almost free living 8 to a house. Ref: Disney Florida, SunCorp bank, HP printer and networks division, (and the list goes on). I bet the majority of the 87000 H1-B visas are being hoarded by just a very few large companies: TCS, IBM, Accenture, EDS, etc.

    1. Re: No shortage on skilled labor for IT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Paul Ryan, the biggest K street cocksucking mother fucker is about to be speaker of the house. He's all for unlimited H1Bs and will pass all forms of Obama's Pacific trade deals. He's an Anerican Phycho of the highest order!

  26. Re:- Jew propaganda - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didn't know Trump posted here!

    Trump/Hitler 2016!

  27. Nice try by rsilvergun · · Score: 2, Interesting

    but the cost of higher education was always, well, high. We just like to forget the massive federal subsidies we got in the 90s. To be fair it wasn't Reagan who cut them, it was Clinton/Bush jr. But Reagan's administration (along with Karl Rove) created the notion of 'starve the beast) that underpinned the cuts. The idea, crammed into our skulls over and over again, that We Can't Afford It, usually because of debt (nevermind that a modest capital gains plus repatrioting 2 trillion sitting off shore could take care of the debt in short order). The idea is to load the gov't with debt by massively cutting taxes on the wealth (and modestly on the poor and middle class) while increasing spending until the whole thing collapse. Just google the phrase and you'll get better explainations than I can give.

    So yeah, I'm going off on right wingers. I've also got damned good reason to. I've thought this through, you haven't. Please start. Please. We're losing everything to guys like you drinking Karl Rove's Koolaid... :(

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Nice try by faraway · · Score: 1

      Cost of college education in California was $300 a year ($1800 in today's money / year).

      College education was basically free before.

      It's only since the far right has been cutting taxes to further enrich their corporate owners and further indebt the US that social services have suffered.

      Thanks for playing.

    2. Re:Nice try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that did start with Reagan. If I recall, wasn't state college free in California until then Governor Reagan decided it should cost something, and that's when it became $300/year.

      After Reagan became President of the US, everyone started slashing university budgets. Whole colleges were eliminated from universities to save money while tuition increased. I was lucky. Tuition at my midwest school rose from $300+fees a quarter to about $1500+more fees a quarter over my time there. "More fees" meant that a lot of stuff that was included with tuition were split out into fees. For example, lab fees.

  28. Libertarian nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    blame salle mae and guaranteed student loans

    The obvious problem with this very selective application of supply and demand is the fact that if this were all about "free money", then more players would eventually enter the market and force prices back down, in the competition for tuition dollars. That obviously hasn't happened, so I gotta ask - have Libertarians ever thought through one of their arguments to it's logical conclusion? Ever?

    1. Re:Libertarian nonsense by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Most of us Libertarians have, indeed, thought it out. Me? I support the idea of free or inexpensive tuition for qualified people and for qualified majors. We can debate where and who those are but I'd suggest we start with STEM and people who score well on the SAT. Why? It's a way to give more people liberty. It's also cheaper and more productive in the long run. People should still be able to pay for (and it should be less expensive, maybe even partially subsidized) alternative majors as well. Again, the rights belong in the hands of the people. A good government should enable and secure those rights on our behalf.

      Most of us aren't extremist, morons, Ayn Rand worshiping, idiots. However, the vocal minority is and they really like microphones and web forums. It's kind of tough to go around cleaning up after them. I was going to point out that the OP was not a Libertarian but I think he may actually identify as such. We can't stop people from claiming that they are and we're not about to do some 'purity test.' I've been involved with the party for about 40 years - I was an 'early adopter,' you could say. I'm actually running for office.

      The ones that complain about taxes the most are the ones that aren't actually paying a whole lot. At least that's my observation.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    2. Re:Libertarian nonsense by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      i consider myself a constitutionalist first a libertarian second if you must know

      I hope you have some good luck in your upcoming elections

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    3. Re:Libertarian nonsense by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Somewhere along the line, the Constitution went from being a list of what the government could do to being a list of what the government can't do. "No? It doesn't say we can't do that? Well, let's do it!" You could say I'm pissed off but I suspect I'm preaching to the choir. Run for office. Really, even if it's just a small and local one. I'm refusing all campaign contributions - direct contributions. My signs aren't fully designed but they'll be open for use by anyone who wants to print them or whatnot. You can't pay for my campaign but you can buy your own signs, you can get together with neighbors and put an ad in the paper, etc... I'm away from home, at the moment, but it's looking pretty likely that I'll actually be fairly well set for the 2016 November elections.

      I've spent more than I've needed to, I could have done it for a lot less, but I'm only about 25k down. I've already decided that I'm going to do the town-hall thing and let the constituents decide where my salary goes - I've no need of it, so it can go to a local charity and they can decide among themselves.

      I'm a Classic Libertarian (I have no choice but to use that phrase - it bothers me to do so, look at what the party has become or, at least, how it is perceived) and I strongly support taxation and public goods. Why? It's cheaper, safer, and has the most *likely* benefit to the whole which means that our rights are more likely to be something we can actually take advantage of. I want an educated, safe, and healthy population. I don't want hordes of destitute, hungry, impoverished, scared people taking my stuff. I like my stuff - that's why I worked my ass off to get it.

      Seriously, get out an talk to people. Take the time to explain your beliefs and run for office. Even if it's just the school council. My whole platform can be summed up on a double sided piece of paper. One one side, everything I've done bad - I've no skeletons. On the other, everything I've learned from it and what I believe the solutions are. There's plenty of help to be had under the Libertarian tent - we'll help get you on the ticket.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  29. Vote Bernie by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    He's the only candidate to oppose more H1-Bs.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Vote Bernie by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Way ahead of you...I'll be voting for him both in the primary and in the general election. :)

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    2. Re:Vote Bernie by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

      He has my vote. He's the only one during the debates that could communicate the general attitude of GOP witch hunts; better than Hillary, and he even took the lead on the email non-sense. The gal is good at dotting i's, and crossing t's; but I see no leadership from her. I'll support a candidate that says to business, "enough is enough."

    3. Re:Vote Bernie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bernie is a fake. he says populist candy but votes corporate when it comes down to important issues.

    4. Re: Vote Bernie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's also against Uber and free market choice; he believes there are too many deodorant choices and thus a problem that causes undue burden of choice.

      Bernie is a populist wackadoodle.

  30. Re:For a site full of liberals... by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Students "demanding!?" I've got a demand, "get f out of here."

  31. Re:For a site full of liberals... by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Not any of the "rich" haunt \.

  32. Re:For a site full of liberals... by Required+Snark · · Score: 1
    Slashdot: home of the 1%

    Somehow I doubt it. It's more like: Slashdot, we sit around in our parents basement and pretend we are the 1%.

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
  33. Re:- Jew propaganda - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It makes me sad to know that there isn't anything I can say to you to convince you that you aren't thinking clearly and that medication can help you with that. I've been there dude. I've had my own psychotic episodes. The thing about a psychotic episode: you don't realize you are having one until it's over. In hindsight, you realize how clouded your judgement was.

    I know you think you've found a simple explanation for what is wrong with the world. It would be nice if bad people were so easily identified and they all just agreed to subscribe to the same religion. Bad people are everywhere and most of them have misplaced good intentions motivating their evil. Nobody thinks they are the villain. Frequently, bad people are just suffering from mental illness themselves. People(Sadists) who are hurting you(or have hurt you before) exploit your illness to isolate you because you don't have credibility. The paranoid symptoms shields them from consequences for harassing you when your description of reality happen to be speaking the truth.

    I don't hate you for your bigotry or your illness, although I can never condone it. I'm only writing this to let you know that you are loved and that you aren't alone. My mental health recovery was more complex than a single person giving me a hug, but nobody is worthless or worthy of hatred. No matter how misguided their beliefs might seem to me. If we can all stop vilifying each-other, we have an opportunity to consider the possibility that our search for a common enemy to unite us around a common purpose is actually just a reaction to our own feelings of loneliness and vulnerability.

    We're all going to die someday and the world already has too much hatred. I hope you can see that using hate as motivation is preventing you from addressing the real issues behind your unhappiness. You aren't a bad person, just a miserable one. It doesn't have to be like that, but the decision starts with you being willing to consider that I'm not trying to trick you, and a willingness to try being someone different from who you are now.

    Trusting a medical professional to help you is the first step. If you don't trust western medicine then find something you do trust. Not everyone who calls themselves a doctor is Jewish or a lizard person. Finding a Palestinian psychiatrist may give you some peace of mind?

  34. Re:- troll jews- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    More slobbering jew bs. distraction.

    - The mass of jew trolls distract because, after murdering over 1 billion people with help by mass ignorance, now the
    the jews target is you, they are intent that their cull plan goes uninterrupted so they are all at high gear right now doing their act, millions of them.

      Don't just sit and let the pedo jews kill you. Stop them.
      Chemtrails. see other jew posts. copy to re read, give links to others

  35. This would be awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's funny how Americans complain about we international students taking their jobs but a lot of them don't want to do it. In an engineering course of 50 about 40 of us are international students and the remains 10 are Americans.
    We pay so much money to get this education(in cash) yes we knew this before coming so we can't complain.
    But for some of us who already even filed for a green card 10 years before coming here, we are still on the wait list.
    I think this would be awesome ! This will be a privilege to a lot of us and America should find ways to encourage its citizens to be more involved in the STEM field.
    That blue passport will take you far, more than half of you just don't realize the blessing.

    1. Re:This would be awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They do encourage STEM, unfortunately 40 of the 50 seats are sold off to foreign students that are paying cash.

    2. Re:This would be awesome by naris · · Score: 1

      This is to ensure that you have to sign up to be slave labor in order to stay. Be careful what you wish for as it could very well have unintended consequences.

    3. Re:This would be awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "That blue passport will take you far, more than half of you just don't realize the blessing."

      Not so sure about that anymore... I think Europe is probably going to be the best place to wait out the insanity that will ensue as unemployment and underemployment get higher here. Automation and offshoring are killing the nice safe middle class jobs that have kept this country a decent place to live. I don't see it getting better, and the US will never re-animate the social safety net, regardless of how bad things get.

      I'd gladly trade my passport for a European one at this point.

  36. Lose-lose? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How sad that you must go back to where you belong. It is dangerous for the US to harbor transnationals of uncertain loyalty.

    1. Re:Lose-lose? by BVis · · Score: 1

      You know, you can use the word "nigger" if you want. Especially if you're an AC.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    2. Re:Lose-lose? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My company needs my skills, which is why I'll continue doing the same job abroad. In other words, they won't be hiring someone to replace me when I'm leaving. I will actually be moving to a country where the wages are higher than in the US, so it costs my company more to keep me on payroll over there. Since it's an American company, it just means that money will be transferred over from the American economy to Europe and you're the one losing. In other words, you'll lose.

      I actually like the country I'm moving to... better infrastructure, much cleaner, lots of great places nearby to travel to. Only issue is that Silicon Valley has more networking opportunities and I need to learn the local language.

  37. Joe Biden 2016 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Joe Biden is a square shooter. Joe Biden 2016!

    1. Re:Joe Biden 2016 by BVis · · Score: 1

      Got some bad news for you, man. Prepare to hold your nose and vote for Hillary.

      --
      Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
  38. And who honestly gives a shit... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what foreigners "demand"?

    What about the citizens in this country and their demands that fall on deaf ears?

  39. Crisis in H-1B visa shortage .. by nickweller · · Score: 2

    translation: We want more cheap foreign labour ..

    1. Re:Crisis in H-1B visa shortage .. by shadesofgreen · · Score: 1

      You don't know what you are talking about, so stop these nonsense! Tell me if a MS or a PhD student invested so much effort in coming over to US (leaving all his/her family and support structure behind), then why can't they demand a support structure which provides them stability with respect to finding a relevant job here in US? In fact not having a longer OPT was the worst policy. Many students were forced/rushed to find employment in order to meet H1-B quotas and that led to employers acting as gods and exploiting these highly qualified students. I know so many graduate students who were forced to re-enroll into some bullshit program at University/Community College/Even Kaplan (for GMAT, etc!) so as to maintain their immigration status because the time on their OPT was up. So before you utter such xenophobic words like "cheap labor" think about the hardship/uncertainty these students go through, before they land a stable job.

  40. Re: - Jew propaganda - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This might be the most beautiful response I,ve ever seen on the internet. Thanks for the example you just set. You've certainly inspired me.

  41. Re:- troll jews- by BVis · · Score: 1

    The scary thing is, this person can probably legally buy a gun.

    --
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
  42. Re:- troll jews- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As I said: there's nothing I can say.

    As long as you dismiss everything you disagree with as Jewish lies or distractions: Well... Congratulations, "mission accomplished" your armor is bulletproof. Nobody can get through to you and inflict an emotion that you aren't in control of(or didn't provoke yourself intentionally). Being "galvanized' makes you feel strong and powerful.

    I don't know who it was that hurt you so badly to where you feel a need to protect yourself by shutting everyone else out but like it or not: you aren't alone(or at-least: you don't have to be). FYI, you didn't deserve that and I'm sorry it happened to you. I hope you can forgive them someday.

    I get it: anger is less painful than loneliness, fear, or regret. Next time you feel an overwhelming rage, just remember that. When you want to set the world on fire and everyone in it to suffer: consider that it may be your behaviors and actions that are inspiring the people around you to be mean to you. Maybe they aren't inherently mean or malicious people naturally and you just can't see that because you spend so much time acting like a hateful douchebag deliberately pissing people off?

    You do realize you're being an asshole, or at-least: I always did. You just believe you are entitled and that this is how normal people behave. "You're just more honest about it" amirite? ;) Your perception of normal behavior has become distorted by the reflections of yourself which you inspire in other people.

    You don't spend all this time trolling Slashdot using inflammatory racial slurs because you have better things to be doing with your time. You've isolated yourself and created some safety that allows you an opportunity to hammer at that keyboard.

    You didn't take the time to respond to my post because you are indifferent to how you are perceived by others. The racism is just a grown up version of a 2 year old breaking things because negative attention is better than no attention at all. That's why you sometimes refresh the page over and over after saying something especially offensive. You get a rush every-time someone responds to you, and, a (Score: -1 Troll) is still a response.

    You believe that you can see the truth and everyone else is naive, or sleepwalking through lies. That YOU are the sane one and everyone else is delusional. You have found a subculture of paranoids who validate your beliefs and provide you with social proof that you aren't crazy. A leper colony of mental illness...

    Let's suppose that's the case for a moment: wouldn't you be happier if you could take the "blue pill" and be blissfully unaware like everyone else? If you continue to believe that "knowing the truth" is better than being happily unaware: you'll continue to look for conspiracies which give you secret knowledge to lord over the idiot plebes with their beautiful families and idyllic lives. They may have a nicer car or house than you: but you know the precious "truth".

    Here's some of the nonsense that you are coveting: "13 families of the Illuminati", "the Rothschilds", "the 16th amendment was never properly ratified", "14th amendment enslaved us", "Admiralty Jurisdiction", "the Council on Foreign Relations", "the devil's horns", "Bohemian Grove".

    I'm not bullshitting you dude: I've been there. There is a fantastic narrative of partial facts behind the "red pill" subcultures.

    My point is this: like it or not, you have an emotional need for the approval and attention of others that has been under-fulfilled for a very long time. Slashdot posting as AC is simply one way you can be guaranteed to get at least one of those two things in reasonable quantities.

    There is literally nothing in this for me. I don't know you at all, but in many ways: I know you better than my own brother because I have shared in your suffering. I also know how much better it can get from personal experience. It took dozens of small acts of kindness to inspire me to take my life back from my illness. Now it's my turn to pay it

  43. Re:- troll jews- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    IMHO, the scary thing is:
    -We as a society are willing to allow him to suffer and writhe in anguish indefinitely so long as he does so quietly.
    -That we think we can allow this suffering to exist as long as we have LEO to bash skulls and sweep it back under the rug if the untouchables ever make too much noise or get uncomfortably visible by leaving the ghettos of skid row.
    -There is a sincere belief that our liberal sensibilities can be protected from violence &/or cognitive dissonance so long as society's designated proles are incapable of procuring firearms.
    -That societies supposed intellectual elite are willfully ignorant to the impossibility of controlling access to the millions of things that can kill or maim 5-50 people in a single sitting for $100(paper matches, incandescent lightbulbs, cigarettes, pressure cookers, plumbing pipe, 9v batteries, etc).
    -That trite remarks about mental illness on Facebook and other forms of #hashtagactivism are woefully ineffective at affecting change.
    -That the same people stating the obvious about mental health care on social media are entirely unwilling to take it upon themselves to show kindness or love to a sick person because they're afraid they might catch the Tuberculosis or something.

    If we want fewer people to lose their shit and go postal: maybe we should stop electing the wax politicians who can most convincingly whisper sweet-nothings and feel-good soundbites and then expecting it to be someone else's responsibility to make the world a less shitty place?

    Trump or Bernie: I really don't care either way just so long as we don't have another 16 years of the exact democracy that we so clearly deserve(IE. Bush III or Clinton II).

  44. Can someone fill me in on the narrative here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is Obama's strategy here?

    Is this one some how a way to get more immigrant democratic voters?
    Is this a way to redistribute income to get back at the 1%?
    Is the Dept of Homeland Security (headed by Jeh Johnsom a big obama supporter that also served in the Clinton administration) going cowboy?

    Or is there some grand strategy to blame this on Bush?

  45. Great news by shadesofgreen · · Score: 1

    The robust immigration policies of US has been the main reason for its success compared to other developing countries. US has always been the country of immigrants and should avoid the xenophobic policies of other countries like in EU, Australia, Russia.

  46. Shit like this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is why Donald Trump has a very good chance of becoming president. Americans are fed up with being shit on by their government and having foreigners getting preferential treatment over U.S. citizens. Republicans and Democrats alike are not realizing there is a raw nerve in the U.S. regarding immigration and all other forms of foreigners obtaining residency. Trump is the only candidate talking about it. Sure money talks but Bullshit walks and policies like this are bullshit.

  47. Re:For a site full of liberals... by tompaulco · · Score: 1

    Slashdot: home of the 1%

    Somehow I doubt it. It's more like: Slashdot, we sit around in our parents basement and pretend we are the 1%.

    Believe me, the government considers pretty much everybody that is in slashdot to be the 1%

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  48. Re:- troll jews- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Jew troll still yammering to distract from my - Jew Propaganda- post, Same with your even longer bs post below that says Nothing.

    "The scary thing is, this person can probably legally buy a gun.'
      the same troll doing it twice - post below 'IMHO' more say-nothing jew troll bs. -
    --
    The mass murdering jews have trillions in weapons and this troll's tribe is spraying the rest of us, which bio nano chips don't affect jews, behind every war, every fraud, mass murder, but, since I expose their scum for what it is, the trolls yammers ' scary thing is, this person can probably legally buy a gun'.
    These jews are the terrorists. Jew terrorists.
    Mass murderers setting up now the biggest in hisotry, and, they want your guns, and anyone who doesn't have one yet not to get one.
    That is because they want to be able to kill with more ease.
    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/8.L,adl_is_fighting_for_gun_control.htm
    also see thezog.info pages at right 'who is behind gun control'.

    -copy first 'jew propaganda' post and second posts to re read, give links to others

  49. jew tactics - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When 'shit house rat' doesn't work the jew goes to the slobbering female angle, twice.
    But start with your 'shit house rat' post below, rat face jew. You jews control the post order on the thread, your 'shit house rat' post below, was originally up above, just below my first post. You, being the scum jew slimeball have to scheme around idiot that you are, moved you longer slobber post so it would be directly below my first post, as if that makes any difference. Now you're piling on more bullshit, stupidly assuming that if you just lay on enough bullshit then real people would forget to copy and spread the links after being bored off by jew bullsht. The more you slobber, the more you make my point.
    " There is literally nothing in this for me." -- What's 'in it for you' is that You are a JEW, slobbering distraction to cover up for yourself and your tribe. There is Zero in my post on your jew bullshit "13 families Illuminati, Rothschilds, 16th amendment, 14th amendment, Admiralty Jurisdiction, Council on Foreign Relations, devil's horns, Bohemian Grove". "

    All of those, every one, are bullshit psy ops made up by You JEWS to distract the morons from your tribe.
    ---
    This tactic sheet is generally labeled disinfo agents but they are actually jew tactics, and used for years now on the net.
    http://pastebin.com/irj4Fyd5
      The mass of trolls are not just random 'govt' trolls, the fraud 'govt' they are jews, masses of them on the web in addition to everywhere else.

    What this jew rat is doing is slobbering useless bs, per the 'tactic' sheet, to get dupes to forget my first post information and links and follow up post links. You do not get to see posts like mine often and soon there will be none, you will be silenced and dead by the jew, if you do not get off your ass.
    -copy the first 'jew propaganda' post and second posts to re read, give links to others. I am not going to do it for you, do your part or keep breathing the jew nano chip chemtrails and virus that comes next.

    Here are a few more to add to the links in the first - Jew Propaganda post above.

    The scum jews are not only scheming robbing mass murdering immigration ramming destroyers of whites and other races, they are also mass child rapists and butchers. If you don't stop them they will have millions of children to rape and kill when the virus kills adults, that's the way it's designed, by race and age so they keep the children.

    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/bl.ood_or_cannibal.htm

    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/marc_dutroux.htm

    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/Hate_Hoax_summary.htm

    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/84virgin_killer_%20wife_lured_Michel%20Fourniret.htm

    1. Re:jew tactics - by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody can say I didn't try...

      FYI: I'm an atheist so I really don't care about your religious grudges.

      I will say if you think the worst conspiracies use religious affiliation as a prerequisite for admission you're either exaggerating the influence of a small group of bigots or blissfully unaware of the truly dangerous ones.

      I've asked you to help yourself twice now, and your response is to continue to insult me. I don't take offense, but since compassion isn't working there's really nothing I can offer you in the way of assistance. I hope you find peace and eventually discontinue your war against windmills. I have no doubt you will interpret this as a sign of weakness or evidence that your behavior is having an impact. Unfortunately, I can't persuade you away from your own confirmation bias.

  50. Why do you think foreign students are entitled to by Brannon · · Score: 1

    a job in the US at all? Are US citizens allowed to go live and work in any country they want?

  51. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    jew troll 'beeuduful' bs, replying to your own giant bogus slobber post - "As I said there is nothing I can..". My reply to your giant pile is 'jew tactics' above. Beside you replying to you own bs your posts are a load of say-nothing distraction, you also switched the posts around. more jew bs.

      Jew mass immigration destruction. Nano chip chemtrails, virus.

    ------
    - jews programmed everyone else to 'be nice', 'follow law', bogus 'law' made up by the jews while they scheme, lie, rob, kill. Get a sense of nature anarchism and defense/offense. The jews and their co-frauds are scheming to take your life. The jews use every act, fake smiley, female angle, indignance, whatever act to slow you down and stop you from informing others. Meet real people, get serious against the scheming killer jews and their co-frauds. Chemtrail virus. Make your own tribes.
    -copy first 'jew propaganda' post and other post links to re read, give links to others-

  52. -bs- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now the scum jew lays on the female slobber angle thicker yet. More links above,and below, so people can check your mass CHILD RAPE and BUTCHERING, yet you still spew to distract. You're really jacked about the virus cull coming aren’t you scum jew.

    You seem to ignore that you're shit under my shoe. I know more about your weapons and plans than you do, and you know this, yet, you spew 'atheist', as if I haven't said you're a RACE. You're 'atheist' bs doesn't matter, all jews in the tribe are 'atheist'. Anyone with a brain is an atheist, except jews. Jews have no brain, you are thieves of other's brains. You were told to be athiest by your scum breeders and their breeders, whereas the rest of us actually use our brains to determine that. Of course you know that I know you're yammering 'atheist' shit to distract from the fact you JEWS are a RACE that people can See by your JEW Face.

    It's the second biggest cover you do is revert back to 'religion' bs to cover up your
    RACE. Your Jew 'religion' was made up as a manual for your RACE to kill other races and take the world for yourselves and our child rape and torture and beastiality and shit eating etc. Your RACE is critical, because THAT is how you are able to make VIRUSES to kill OTHER Races and Your JEW RACE isn't affected. The links are good for that purpose, See their JEW FACES, see them everywhere. There are some ashkenazi who don't know they are, and have nothing to do with the scum jew tribe, so, first the Face then, What they do. Jews have co-frauds in their schemes, a few negros, hispanics, chinese scum, but the Millions in the tribe are RACIAL ashkenazi JEWS posing as 'whites'. They are Not nordic whites.
    The tribe frauds are Any one in fraud govt, Any one in Any fraud media, 70% 'lawyers' 'doktor', 'professor', cooking sites 'kosher salt', there are a million ways, and if they say 'jew', that's the core, the religion is cover for the tribe RACE. Also many are christard posers like ashkenazi jew 'dave ramsee' and a million others. See their FACES jews are a RACE. Recognize by face And by what they do.

    ------------------
    -- Get clear, this scum jew is going to live and you are not. Notice the fake act bs, this is exact example. Look at the shit, moving my posts, their bullshit posts, now female snivel act, the same time it is fact this troll is full on with the child rape, the chemtrail cull, all of it. Think how many of these smiling vipers are in your face every day, everywhere, keeping you distracted while they set up to kill you. Either you Do something to fight to live. now, or they kill you. They are the phony 'neighbors' who smile in your face, they are every scum fraud posing as 'govt', 'media', the scum fraud 'professors', 'scientists', 'doctors'. They are all around you, they are part of the plan to kill you, they distract, do their phony 'job' while waiting for the virus cull to hit, this after they've already chipped you with the nano chips in chemtrails, though that is to control those leftover from the virus.
    - COPY the first post above, 'jew propaganda', copy links from other posts on their child rape. don't take the links for granted you would NEVER have found them if I hadn't given them to you.
    Put the pages from the links on Disk Now. They wiped literally hundreds of sites off the web the last year, the rest will be gone soon, all there will be are a few bogus 'jew truther' sites run by jews. that is mostly all there is now. Copy this post to remind you of the jews fake act, this thread example, jew's fake act snivel angle, female angle, fake indignant angle, fake authoritarian angle, the jew is a bullsitter including the females.

    Don't wait to copy link pages to disk for backup, they will wipe computers, they can do it now. Then get Off the web and get off your ass. Send links to everyone you know, postal mail, put on notes, hand out to others. Don't just use the web, you're missing meeting people around you in real life to make tribes with, and that's what the jew wants. You can't stop them wit

  53. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    child rape and torture -

    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/haut_de_la_garenne_home_in_st_ma.htm
    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/bl.ood_or_cannibal.htm
    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/marc_dutroux.htm
    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/Hate_Hoax_summary.htm
    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/84incestuous_dungeon_master_is_a_z.htm
    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/freidman_pedophiles_from_hell.htm
    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/7_18_zionists_target_children_in_porn.htm
    no such thing as 'italian mafia'. jews.
    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/81murder_incorporated.h
    http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/judicial-inc/False_Flags_summary.htm

  54. Because US education system attracts them here by shadesofgreen · · Score: 1

    and all those foreign grads contribute significantly to US economy. Yes, they can work anywhere they want. In fact there is a significant number of US expatriates working in EU, East Asia, and South America.

  55. Am I allowed to attend IIT in India and then... by Brannon · · Score: 1

    get a job there? Yes or No?

    Oh, right, it's only racist xenophobia when it's Americans doing it. Your entire argument is that since there are good colleges in the US (and the US has worked hard to build a strong economy) then anyone anywhere should be allowed to buy their way into American citizenship for the price of attending a US university--regardless of the impact to actual American citizens and the US economy.

    1. Re:Am I allowed to attend IIT in India and then... by shadesofgreen · · Score: 1

      Yes you can attend those universities, you just will have to pay more, similar to higher tuition fees for International students in US, unless you get a scholarship. Do the research, before you ask questions and answer them as well. The US education system has been sustained by steady flow of immigrants; otherwise it will decline before you even blink. Yes, those hardworking students have a right to apply for US citizenship in a same manner, all those European immigrants did during past two centuries. Everybody in this country is an immigrant, except American-Indians; wait what happened to them? They were massacred and marginalized by endless wave of European migrations in past centuries. You do remember that history, don't you?

  56. jew bs- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fake chatter bs. The 'constitution' is a proven fraud, the libertarian' bs is jew meme bs. Who's behind gun control

    thezog.info