Google, Facebook, Microsoft Deliver K-12 CS Demands To Congress (politico.com)

theodp writes: Politico reports that just one day after Facebook launched TechPrep, a highly-publicized initiative to attract more minorities and women to coding, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and Code.org quietly sent a letter to top education lawmakers in the House and Senate insisting that computer science "must" be added to the list of "core academic subjects" and states be given resources to improve STEM education programs. "Computer science is marginalized throughout K-12 education," reads the letter. "We need to improve access for all students, particularly groups who have traditionally been underrepresented." Echoing the last point at this month's Grace Hopper Women in Computer Celebration, YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki called for mandatory computer science in schools, suggesting that boys — like her own son — are monopolizing the family computer across America, leaving girls — like her own daughter — out of the conversation when it comes to technology (video @38:33). The new round of hand-wringing comes as tech companies face the deadline for filing their 2015 EEO-1 surveys and seek more tech-friendly U.S. visa and OPT STEM policies, so it's probably worth remembering that Microsoft proposed tech could turn workforce diversity lemons into H-1B visa lemonade by connecting tech immigration to K-12 CS education.

Comments

Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, Mosnter

[Anonymous Coward]

Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, Mosnter Deliver K-12 Chemistry Demands To Congress ...

do you get better CS grads or do you get better "human resources" for companies like Microsoft, Google, whatever

Re:Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, Mosnter

[davester666]

"YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki called for mandatory computer science in schools, suggesting that boys — like her own son — are monopolizing the family computer across America, leaving girls — like her own daughter — out of the conversation when it comes to technology"

I have this crazy idea. I think Susan can afford...a second computer! Or put some kind of time limit on how long someone can use the computer.

But guess what, I bet if she does, she'll still find her daughter instead either talking or tapping away on her phone, or perhaps doing the same thing, just on her computer.

It's truly obnoxious for her to go "I can't be bothered to do anything to get my daughter interested in technology, I'm here before Congress demanding that the gov't do it for me."

Re:Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, Mosnter

[Anonymous Coward]

And people wonder where the stereotype about polack's comes from.

Keep beating that drum

[Anonymous Coward]

Where are our famously underfunded schools going to get the money to teach all this CS to the lowest common denominator, anyway?

Re:Keep beating that drum

[sh00z]

Precisely. If they're going to "demand" this, they need to stop extorting tax breaks out of the cities and states where they consider building new facilities, so the school systems will actually be able to afford to provide a decent education.

Re:Keep beating that drum

[ShanghaiBill]

Where are our famously underfunded schools going to get the money ...

American schools are NOT underfunded. They receive more funding than almost any other country in the world. Only Norway and Switzerland spend more per student on education. Many of the countries spending a small fraction of what America spends, get far better results.

However, America's education spending is mostly based on local property taxes, which results in very unequal funding. But it is not clear if more spending will help much. New Jersey's "Save Our Schools" program poured millions into poorly performing schools, and resulted in negligible improvement. After Freddie Gray was killed in Baltimore's Sandtown slum, people pointed at the terrible schools as a source of the social decay. Yet Sandtown has some of the best funded schools in the country. The Feds have poured in millions spread over two decades. Yet, on a typical day, only half the kids show up for class. Whatever the problem is, it isn't just money.

Re:Keep beating that drum

[jcr]

Our schools are not underfunded. They're over-administered.

-jcr

Re:Keep beating that drum

[Darinbob]

There are US schools that can't even afford repairs to their buildings. We have essentially a two tier system in the US, not official of course. The wealthy schools and the neglected schools. Separate and unequal. Even in the same school district you can see the poor schools vs the good schools. Where the money goes we don't know, but it's not to better teachers or better buildings.

Re:Keep beating that drum

[ajzimm3rman]

Jonathan Kozol is an idiot. We spend more on education than any other country. More Money isn't the answer. Innovation and Competition (Something public schools are not allowed to have) are. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us... http://nces.ed.gov/programs/co... http://www.ppic.org/main/publi....

Re:Keep beating that drum

[alvinrod]

This has been known for a while. In the 80's Kansas City ended up spending $2 billion in school funding over roughly a decade after a court ruling from a federal judge to improve their schools and it did nothing to improve education attainment despite having the highest spending per pupil in the nation. Education isn't something you can throw money at to fix. If you're trying to make a fundamentally flawed system work, additional funding won't achieve anything.

Re:Keep beating that drum

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you accounting for Special Education students?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Re:Keep beating that drum

[Chalnoth]

The word "demand" is just bad headline writing. Blame Soulskill, not tech companies. This letter is more, "You should do this because it will benefit the US in the future in a way that is important to us as well."

As for local tax breaks, a move towards federally-funded primary education would do more far more for US students, as tech companies tend to be clustered. If we got away from the idea of locally-funded education, we could actually have a system where a student in NYC could have about as much chance of getting a good education as one in rural Pennsylvania.

Re:Keep beating that drum

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no disciplining kids, no consequences for anything. Thank the "enlightened" feminist movement for destroying the American family, not letting schools touch their precious kiddies to the point where kids are not afraid of any authority, and still blaming the patriarchy for all the country's problems.

Re:Keep beating that drum

[Anonymous Coward]

Compare how much is going to the teachers and supplies to the amount of money spent on "Administration" and you might find why that money doesn't help much.

Also, you have to look at the environment the kids are growing up in and the values they are being taught when their parents are busting their asses daily to get nowhere and not even college would save most of them. The same families where the parents aren't given a chance to even raise their children because they are too busy just trying to provide for them and keep them from being homeless.

Fix those issues so one of their parents can actually stay at home to raise the kids instead of sending them to daycare till they are old enough to watch themselves so you can pay the bills, kids might get better values instilled in them and more respect.

For me, I honestly think they would get more mileage with their money if they actually gave the kids a paycheck based on their grades and actually get them used to handling money, then you can bet your butt they would buckle down and work harder when they know they are going to get something out of it instead of a gamble a decade or more into the future.

And when I say give them money, I mean give them a meaningful amount for good grades with bonuses for honor roll, not some cheapskate crap where they can't do anything with it. Give them enough where if they were to save it till graduation and got good grades, they can afford their own college tuition or a new vehicle. You give them that level of a reward that they can actually see within a meaningful time frame, you will see even the dumbest or most stubborn of them busting their butts trying to get a paycheck and the only ones who wouldn't care would be the spoiled rich kids who get money anyways which would end up leaving them in the dust academically.

Re:Keep beating that drum

[Anonymous Coward]

With protections in place to keep their parents from trying to steal it as some parents are just that sketchy.

Re: Keep beating that drum

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, not underfunded per se, rather vast sums wasted on administration (the food pyramid is almost inverted these days). That and the pathological avoidance of spending pretty much anything on teachers, classrooms and materials.

Re:Keep beating that drum

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to see around $3k provided to each student in the form of vouchers or block grants to the state. Provided that one-third of it be used to create a
"free lunch for all"-type program. That'd be about $5/day/student.

This shit makes me ill

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck lobbyists.

Youtube CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

So the CEO of Youtube can't afford a second computer for her daughter?

Re:Youtube CEO

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

>> CEO of Youtube can't afford a second computer

The CEO might be out of a job once the shareholders figure out that YouTube's new premium service (YouTube Red) seems to be named after a porn site (RedTube).

Re:Youtube CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

So the CEO of Youtube can't afford a second computer for her daughter?

Or manage her children.

Re:Youtube CEO

[ShanghaiBill]

The CEO might be out of a job once the shareholders figure out that YouTube's new premium service (YouTube Red) seems to be named after a porn site (RedTube).

As long as it increases traffic and revenue, why would the shareholders care?

Re:Youtube CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

You sound bitter.

A geek spurned by a skank should be thankful for his luck.

Perhaps you should stop jacking off to internet porn and maybe someday hold a conversation with a real woman. She might even like you! At least enough to let you touch her lady parts, anyway. Maybe. But don't count on it if you're still bitter about high school.

People who are bitter about high school and let it ruin their lives are almost as sad as the jocks who had their best days in high school and the next 50 years of their life is simply a sad decline into the grave while reminiscing about the "good times". But at least the jocks got laid.

Also, the YouTube CEO's daughter is, according to one of the stories linked to in the summary, 10 years old. If she's skanky at 10, someone's going to prison. Maybe you.

TL;DR: You're a terrible person. Fix that before you attempt fixing anyone else's problems.

Re:Youtube CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

It's so normal for women to exaggerate, dramaticize, and lie that a high-profile executive makes childish fibs in public statements and isn't discredited

Re:Youtube CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe red tube should help everyone out by creating a paid "you" channel.

Re:Youtube CEO

[Golddess]

Worse than that I'd say, she is apparently powerless to say "hey son, you've been on the computer all day. Let your sister on".

Re:Youtube CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

My exact sentiments. I have to question the motivations of anyone who would suggest that we need to perpetuate the "battle of the sexes."

Re:Youtube CEO

[Anonymous Coward]

Worse than that I'd say, she is apparently powerless to say "hey son, you've been on the computer all day. Let your sister on".

son is doing Khan Academy classes and trying to make WebGL work.
daughter is collecting stickers, using wechat to chat with 5 boys at the same time, and sucking down malware.

What is the problem?

  - why don't you teach your sister what you learned? She admires you so much. She would do well if only you would teach her.

  - stop monopolizing the computer. It's not _that_ you're using the computer. It's the _way_ you're using it, the monopolizing way. Your sister feels she can't ask you to leave it. She is shy. You have to step aside for her. Last night I heard you say, "how much longer do you think you are going to wechat?"

  - I know we have 5 computers in the house and only 4 people in our family. I know the laptop is sitting on the couch, "right over there," as you so snidely say. I know the laptop has no JPU in it or whatever you call it and that you want the fanciest most hotrod "machine" for your silly programs or whatever. but your sister isn't comfortable chatting without the clicky keyboard, and I think the large chair and the computer desk area make her feel more comfortable. Also she says with the laptop she can only fit four boys on the screen at once.

Re:Youtube CEO

[LessThanObvious]

The clear solution is to send the male child to a labor camp so that the female child can get her fair share of computer time. I'm afraid there is no other way.

More Gender Politics

[Anonymous Coward]

Like NOW and other Feminist groups haven't done enough to propel girls ahead of boys in education (and other things).

Re:More Gender Politics

[Anonymous Coward]

Try to not be a reactionary dope. We have a serious right-wing lunatic problem in America.

Re:More Gender Politics

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice comeback. Oh yea, no debate material other than name-calling. Typical left-wing stuff. Tell you what, go do some research on Feminists and how they are destroying the American (actually, just about all western civilized) families by all but eliminating the father, incarcerating men, and doing everything they can to make all boys/men out to be rapists. Hell, just look at what Title IX has become today in our universities - witch hunts that take in account the "victims" only, while ignoring the "suspects" as well as their constitutional rights to due process and facing their accuser. But I doubt you will - your type only likes to sling mud and lies. Go curl up to your nearest Feminist, purple poodle.

Re:More Gender Politics

[Golddess]

Tell you what, go do some research on Feminists and how they are destroying the American

Shouldn't that be your job? You're the one who made that claim after all.

too soon

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't we have to teach Johnny to read before he can digest those materials?

My theory

[Anonymous Coward]

Theodp is a bot created by two Google interns to troll Slashdot with "K-12 CS education" posts.

flonk.flonk.flonk

[drinkypoo]

Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and Code.org quietly sent a letter to top education lawmakers in the House and Senate insisting that computer science "must" be added to the list of "core academic subjects" and states be given resources to improve STEM education programs.

"We are starting to have to pay programmers real money," reads the letter. "We need more warm bodies in the market to drive salaries down."

Echoing the last point at this month's Grace Hopper Women in Computer Celebration, YouTube CEO Susan Wojcicki called for mandatory computer science in schools, suggesting that boys â" like her own son â" are monopolizing the family computer across America, leaving girls â" like her own daughter â" out of the conversation when it comes to technology

Ahhh, I was wondering what was so interesting about this post, it has some sexist bullshit. I dug down into there and got this tidbit:

Wojcicki asked her why she didn't like computers.

The answer went something like thisâ"her brother had "conquered" their one home computer. Also, it's lame.

So there's two ways you could read that. Either "conquered" means that her brother was better than her at it, so she didn't feel like she could compete, and she had to be better than him. Or, he took it over, and she couldn't use it. Both of these are pretty stupid explanations, and either way comes down to failure as a parent to manage conflicts between her offspring, and have nothing to do with anyting else.

The new round of hand-wringing comes as tech companies face the deadline for filing their 2015 EEO-1 surveys and seek more tech-friendly U.S. visa and OPT STEM policies, so it's probably worth remembering that Microsoft proposed tech could turn workforce diversity lemons into H-1B visa lemonade by connecting tech immigration to K-12 CS education.

Microsoft and these other companies' only goal is to get cheaper labor. They don't care how they do it. H-1B is a means to an end to them, nothing more.

Re:flonk.flonk.flonk

[Anonymous Coward]

"We are starting to have to pay programmers real money," reads the letter. "We need more warm bodies in the market to drive salaries down."

Warm bodies (which is all that 95% of /. readers are) are exactly what we DON'T need. There is an ample supply of unqualified morons that think they deserve a job in spite of their incompetence.

The market needs more GOOD software engineering professionals and is more than willing to pay top dollar for them.

Re:flonk.flonk.flonk

[tnk1]

As someone else said, I have a lot of trouble believing that a YouTube executive could not buy her daughter and son their own computers....

Yes, in my house, I admit, we only had one computer and I used it most of the time.

On the other hand, I was the one who asked for it, convinced my parents to get it and I paid for half of it. And back in the day $700 was no small feat for a fifteen year old making minimum wage when not in school.

However, my sisters could use the computer, I just don't remember them being all that interested in it. They probably thought all it was good for was playing video games, which I admit was a significant use for it. On the other hand, I used it to write all my high school papers and lab reports, and learned how to make use of it as a tool as well.

Whatever it is that is keeping girls out of CS, I think it is something social and something that happens when they are very young. I'm not sure that making it mandatory in a school is going to help with that. There are plenty of classes that people do well with in school and promptly forget about as soon as they are free to not be in school. And in fact, girls are using computers all the time these days, we call them smartphones. Its just that they don't use them for programming.

I enjoy my car and use all the time, but that doesn't make me interested in doing auto repair for a living.

Re:flonk.flonk.flonk

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't even learned behavior, it is more primal than that, it doesn't appeal to their overall instincts so much so they don't have the drive for it or satisfaction out of it.

It appeals to men for the same reason sitting on the TV and vegetating did for years as it allows us to indulge in our more Hunter instincts in front of that screen. Which is also why men are more into computers than we are TVs in the newer generations because it allows us to indulge it more than TV allowed us.

Same with programming as men are typically the ones who want to create and build stuff compared to women. He is getting the same satisfaction making the programs and using that PC as a car buff does when he gets to build a new car engine and tune it to perfection.

Women, in general, just aren't as much into as men because it doesn't appeal to their overall natures as much. Forcing them into it won't make them want to do it, it will just make them more miserable while learning about it while the companies use this crap as an excuse to drive wages down.

We need to force students to learn computer science about as much as we need to force them to learn how to rebuild car engines and build houses, to be honest, the other two subjects are things they need more and would get more use out of in the long run as most will not work in a field that requires programming while the other stuff actually has real life applications as they get older and their vehicles and homes break down.

I say ditch teaching computers past the most rudimentary stuff, especially since it will change over few years as the operating systems change. And instead teach the kids how the government works, their rights, critical thinking, how to manage cash and balance a check book, proper sex education, And I don't mean a white washed version of history that never was, I mean the real way things are, even the unpleasant stuff.

Re:flonk.flonk.flonk

[Anonymous Coward]

Would "top dollar" be the going rate for an H1B visa holder?

Re:flonk.flonk.flonk

[Anonymous Coward]

Girls and women are not "naturally" attracted to making things? The fuck?

Other things that are marginalized

[Crashmarik]

Critical thinking when listening to politicians / Reading the news
How the legal system actually works and what a citizen needs to know about it.
Contracts and you.
Basic rights of citizens and how not to be taken advantage of.
What you need to know to start a business.

Now arguably these would benefit everyone and not so much Google and Microsoft.

They're clueless

[mattventura]

It's like they don't actually know the level of technology that most people know in a K-12 school. How do they plan to dump people straight into programming when most people's knowledge of the actual workings of a computer is nowhere near the point where they could program anything meaningful? You could probably ask the average person at a K-12 school a basic question like "What's a home directory?" and they wouldn't be able to answer it. I'm all for computer classes (my elementary school forced everyone to learn typing with a cloth over their hands so they couldn't hunt and peck) but suggesting that CS should be in K-12 schools is like saying that we should teach brain surgery in K-12 before we teach them what the different parts of a brain do.

Re:They're clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

There are kids in my building who don't know how to use a mouse. Many do not have computers or internet connections at home. Kids seem to think that googling the name of something and clicking on a link is the only way to get there (some are also lazy and many don't follow directions, so there is that as well).

Re:They're clueless

[drinkypoo]

In third grade we had an Apple II lab with about 1 machine to every 2 students, we did BASIC programming, woo hoo. In Jr. High we were offered LOGO, I took that and I didn't exactly become a programmer but at least I laid the foundations. If I'd had more support I'd have done more with that then. Only now (in my late thirties) am I getting into programming finally. Arduino FTW, I guess.

$9 CHIP computers or $35 R-Pis hooked up to cheapest-possible LCD TVs can let every kid have their own computer to program...

Re:They're clueless

[Anonymous Coward]

It's like they don't actually know the level of technology that most people know in a K-12 school. How do they plan to dump people straight into programming when most people's knowledge of the actual workings of a computer is nowhere near the point where they could program anything meaningful?

Agreed; my brother's kids have grown up with computers in school and they don't even know how to copy from one application and paste into another.

Re:They're clueless

[0100010001010011]

> CS should be in K-12 schools

You think it's going to be Undergraduate CS? They're going to pitch it at the K-12 level.

Stuff like Snap Circuits isn't a BSEE. It's circuits for the kids.

K-12 CS isn't figuring out O(n). It's getting kids exposed to it young. A lot of slashdotters talk about how they got into STEM, by programming young.

Re:They're clueless

[Bing Tsher E]

The cool thing about Raspberry Pis is that they can be student owned and kept totally separate from the IT department.

"It's electronics, go change the toner in the laserjet" is an appropriate answer if the IT Tech tries to interfere.

At the very least

[ThatsNotPudding]

An increase in the amount of K-12 H1-B Indian children allowed for importation.

Lemons?

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

"Alright, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade! Make life take the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons; what am I supposed to do with these? Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give Cave Johnson lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down... with the lemons! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that burns your house down!'" Cave Johnson

Brain surgery?

[U2xhc2hkb3QgU3Vja3M]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

So, they're running out of L1 and H1B visa holders

[Anonymous Coward]

they're having trouble getting warm bodies over the ocean fast enough to outsource US jobs?

layoffs

[Anonymous Coward]

How many people will he have to lay off to get a bonus check big enough to buy that computer?

The kids will be required...

[rsilvergun]

to know CS on the standardized tests. In the wealthier districts this'll be no big deal. The parents will buy their kids laptops to do their homework and hire tutors to get them through the tough spots. In the working class neighborhoods they'll be a few years while they kids have enough computers and then they'll start to break down. After that the grants that the companies gave in exchange for us paying to train their employees will have run out and those kids will be screwed. This is how it works. Don't like it? Tough. That's American Politics.

Now, if you know how to get the blue collar types to stop giving a rat's ass about social issues, stop blaming Unions for their troubles and get them voting for popularist economic policies that are in their best interest again please let me know. The way all this stuff (public schools, social welfare, safety nets, minimum wage, the Civil Rights movement) got through was these folks were organized through their churches. The right wing noticed that and formed an alliance between the social conservatives and the corporate right. Southern Strategy, Starve the Beast, etc. It's been downhill since then.

Re:The kids will be required...

[Anonymous Coward]

If a person wants to learn to develop software or more generally write code there are plenty of freely-available resources on the World Wide Web. When I became interested in computers during the early 1980s I taught myself how to develop software from a few magazines contaning either software code (rare) or specially-coded listings after keying the programme loader and books containing source code listings. If today's students want to learn they can take the initiative and teach themselves.

Re:The kids will be required...

[JackieBrown]

if you know how to get the blue collar types to stop giving a rat's ass about social issues, stop blaming Unions for their troubles and get them voting for popularist economic policies that are in their best interest again please let me know.

Whenever someone tells me they know what's in my best interest, I worry.

And why does it have to be the blue collar types that have to stop caring about social issues? They are not the ones bringing up these social issue topics. The democrats progressives are and the people react to them.

People don't realize how much the political landscape has changed in the past 10 years. The democrat party is more in bed with wall-street than the republicans could have ever dreamed of. When you throw in the tech and entertainment industry, you realize that the bulk of the 1% are dmeocrats playing lip service to people like you that don't realize that the landscape shifted beneath them.

Re:The kids will be required...

[KGIII]

I live in a poor area, not so poor as to be destitute but much of it seems to be by choice. I'm way out in the woods of Maine. We have a small (56 students) elementary school which is part of a larger district but the town opts to keep the elementary school close instead of busing the kids further away. After hemming and hawing to determine which was best, the solitary IT guy is a friend of mine, we decided that the iPod fit the bill. So, I bought all the kids an iPod and the bonus is that they can keep their inexpensive laptops from three years ago when I did that instead. Apple was pretty decent about it and gave me an excellent price - I got a dozen extras as they're expecting to have a few new students next year and some will, inevitably, break.

I imagine that this doesn't work for everyone and everywhere but there's little things you can do to help. If you can ease the burden in one area, perhaps that frees up resources for use in another area? I donate a lot of my old hardware and, when home, I try to donate time as well. They've got their own little computer lab set up and seem to have fun with it. In a couple of years, I'll re-evaluate the landscape and pick a new item to donate. The teachers all make good use of them and the children really appreciate it. I get nommy foods, Christmas cards, Valentines's Day cards, and get invited to plays and stuff. They're absolutely horrific actors and musicians but I go because they're expecting me to take them over to the bowling alley afterwards and buy them pizza.

It's my job. It's what I'm supposed to do. Even if you can only do a little, do that. I'm away from home, I have been for nearly two months, but I still stay in contact. I do think it's nearly time to meander back in that direction but I need to get a few things taken care of first.

I guess, thinking about your comment about blue collar folks, I don't know how to change others. I do know how to change myself. I guess that's my point, really. Do what you can, even if it's just a little. The little bastards appreciate even the smallest of things. I'm going to get the monsters a PA system with auto-tune... (Probably not, their off-key singing and music is part of the charm.)

money

[Anonymous Coward]

Ms, google, and apple can pay minorities and women less. win-win!

*Demands* from Congress?

[Krishnoid]

How about this: we'll trade you.

Women in computers, specially YouTube

[Anonymous Coward]

I always noticed there are ten times more women in computers than men. Whenever I try to Google for women, or Bing for women, or even search for women in Facebook and YouTube, I get more and attractive results always, than men.All these companies are telling blatant lies.

Re:Women in computers, specially YouTube

[The Grim Reefer]

I always noticed there are ten times more women in computers than men.

Well yeah. Women tend to be smaller than men, and computer cases have gotten much smaller over the years.

What to teach?

[swillden]

My guess is that if given a directive to teach "computer science" to all students, many schools will interpret that as "teach kids how to use a computer", meaning teach them to use e-mail, a spreadsheet, etc., plus maybe some "coding" (HTML). This seems to be what is in the "computer technology" classes my kids were forced into.

Those seem like garbage classes to me.

But... what should all people with a basic general education know about computer science?

Programming? It wouldn't be bad, I suppose, but it seems overkill. The fundamentals of how a computer works seems like a good idea, the major pieces and parts. What I think would be really valuable is a basic understanding of what computers cannot do. A little information theory, maybe? Should that be part of a math class? As a security guy, I'd really like the general populace to understand entropy and randomness as they relate to passwords and other user authenticators, and something about how computer security really works... what a vulnerability, what is an exploit, what is a virus, what is malware, etc.

What do you think an average high school graduate know about computer science and technology?

Re:What to teach?

[Wingfield]

There needs to be a plan for framework on how to attract qualified professionals to decide the curriculum, and teach these courses. If it's left up to local administrators, they will have no idea where to begin or decide what needs to be taught. We'll end up with a generation of kids who have been using iPads since they were babies being taught how to use Microsoft Word 2004 and Powerpoint. If we allow a curriculum to be set nationally, then we'll find we have no teachers capable of teaching the subject. It will most likely fall to whatever teacher is "good with technology." As someone who graduated high school in 2008, I had to take a class in elementary school in around 2000 that focused on Word and Powerpoint. Helpful. In middle school I had to take a course that focused on.... word, powerpoint, and excel. Slightly less helpful. Then, in two separate years in high school, I had to take 2 more courses on Word and Excel, rehashing the same information. When I got to college as a music major, I had to take 2 semesters of Music Technology courses. Did they focus on notation or mixing software? No, the focus was, again, on Word and Excel. It was odd considering that all of our papers were required to be electronically submitted, so we obviously knew the basics anyway.

Re:What to teach?

[phantomfive]

What do you think an average high school graduate know about computer science and technology?

Programming.
We already know how to teach high school kids how to program (look at Alan Kay's work, he's been researching that sort of thing for years). The problem is finding people who are qualified to teach it. Most people who are good at programming would rather not be a school teacher.

Re:What to teach?

[swillden]

Why should an average high school graduate know how to program?

Re:What to teach?

[phantomfive]

If you're going to teach kids computer science at all, programming is how you should do it.

Teach them how to use the tools, and they will get confused when the UI changes. Teach them how to build the tools, and they'll be able to figure it out.

There's no better way to understand how a computer works, and its limitations, than actually programming it.

Re:What to teach?

[hambone142]

The same could be said for hardware design. Make electronic design mandatory also.

Re:What to teach?

[phantomfive]

For programmers, I think electronic design should be mandatory. At a minimum, you need to understand the AND/OR/NOT gate level.
That stuff is less accessible though, I'm not sure it would be very practical to teach it at the high school level. Maybe make it an advanced level class, like calculus.

Re:What to teach?

[swillden]

There's no better way to understand how a computer works, and its limitations, than actually programming it.

Sure, programming is sufficient, but is it necessary?

Re:What to teach?

[phantomfive]

I don't think programming is necessary to be taught in high school, but I'm open to alternate viewpoints.

If you're going to teach about computers after 5th grade though, programming ought to be taught.

Re:What to teach?

[Bing Tsher E]

I think for programmers the hardware that should be mandatory is a basic computer architecture. It would be great if it could be discrete CPU/ROM/RAM/DecodeLogic/IO but that's a little ambitious in today's world. At a minimum an Arduino or some sort of small microcontroller.

Gate level AND/OR/NOT is so low in scope that it just doesn't relate to the real world. Unless, I suppose, they're using AND/OR/NOT gates to construct adders and ALUs.

Re:What to teach?

[phantomfive]

A lot of universities teach a one semester class where students build a computer out of TTL logic. That's not unreasonable, and lots of fun.
I say AND/OR/NOT gates, because that's kind of the bottom of the pile. Once you know how to build an AND gate, you can build it out of electronics, or water, or pretty near anything. It's the point where the computer abstraction ends, and materials science begins.

Re:What to teach?

[hambone142]

I dont e even think one could purchase TTL logic anymore ex apt for surplus.

I do have such a CPU board in my garage that I designed in the late '70s.

100% TTL.

Re:What to teach?

[phantomfive]

Plenty available from mouser. Good for learning because it fits in a breadboard.

Re:What to teach?

[serviscope_minor]

You can buy 74xx00 series chips for various varieties of xx. Many (all?) of them are CMOS these days, and of course the 4000 series is still available.

Re:What to teach?

[swillden]

After more reflection, I don't think teaching programming is either necessary or sufficient.

Learning to program really doesn't teach you anything about either how computers actually work, or what their limitations are. I think a little bit of exposure to the EE stuff is needed, and some exposure to key bits of information theory and computability theory. With respect to information theory, I think everyone should have at least a basic understanding of encoding, entropy and compressibility, and of limits on information transfer (Shannon, Nyquist, etc.), though it needn't be presented in its fully theoretical glory. With respect to computability, I think everyone should understand the idea that some problems are infeasible because they would require impossibly enormous amounts of computation, and that some problems are impossible, period.

I think teaching some basic programming constructs is necessary, to explain how complex logic can be constructed from arithmetic plus conditional branching. But I think the visual programming with blocks provided by the Hour of Code site is good enough for that.

Re:What to teach?

[phantomfive]

Learning to program really doesn't teach you anything about either how computers actually work, or what their limitations are.

It teaches you a lot about how they work....and gives you the tools to learn further. It's much better than a class that teaches Excel or Word, and not unreasonable.

I agree with you that programmers should know some EE stuff, and computability and information theory. I feel that is too advanced for high-school though.....if you wanted to teach CS in high school, it could be an AP class or something.

Re:What to teach?

[swillden]

Learning to program really doesn't teach you anything about either how computers actually work, or what their limitations are.

It teaches you a lot about how they work.

Maybe we have different definitions of "how they work".

It's much better than a class that teaches Excel or Word

We're in complete agreement there. Teaching specific tools is pointless and a waste of everyone's time.

and not unreasonable

That I'm not so sure about, unless you're talking about really, really basic programming. My experience teaching kids to program has shown me that there is a non-trivial minority that really, really struggle with being able to think through a problem and write a program. It's not because they're stupid, either, it's just a certain form of difficulty with abstract reasoning. I don't know that there's any value in forcing them all through that.

I agree with you that programmers should know some EE stuff, and computability and information theory. I feel that is too advanced for high-school though.....if you wanted to teach CS in high school, it could be an AP class or something.

I don't think it is. Not the basic concepts, anyway. Broad strokes is all I'm looking for, not the details.

Re:What to teach?

[phantomfive]

Maybe we have different definitions of "how they work".

Then let's say it differently.......it's how programs for the computer are built. There's a layer below it, but I think it's easiest to learn the higher level before going to the lower level (although the lower level is something every programmer should know).

That I'm not so sure about, unless you're talking about really, really basic programming. My experience teaching kids to program has shown me that there is a non-trivial minority that really, really struggle with being able to think through a problem and write a program.

Again, this is a topic Alan Kay has been researching for decades. If you want to understand how to do it, I'd look at his research.

It might be worth teaching kids programming because it would make them feel smart, give them the feeling of being in control; instead of being another crappy computer user at the mercy of corporations. I'm hypothesizing here, I don't know.

Re:What to teach?

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is that if given a directive to teach "computer science" to all students, many schools will interpret that as "teach kids how to use a computer", meaning teach them to use e-mail, a spreadsheet, etc., plus maybe some "coding" (HTML). This seems to be what is in the "computer technology" classes my kids were forced into.

Those seem like garbage classes to me.

But... what should all people with a basic general education know about computer science?

Programming? It wouldn't be bad, I suppose, but it seems overkill. The fundamentals of how a computer works seems like a good idea, the major pieces and parts. What I think would be really valuable is a basic understanding of what computers cannot do. A little information theory, maybe? Should that be part of a math class? As a security guy, I'd really like the general populace to understand entropy and randomness as they relate to passwords and other user authenticators, and something about how computer security really works... what a vulnerability, what is an exploit, what is a virus, what is malware, etc.

What do you think an average high school graduate know about computer science and technology?

My guess is that if given a directive to teach "computer science" to all students, many schools will interpret that as "teach kids how to use a computer", meaning teach them to use e-mail, a spreadsheet, etc., plus maybe some "coding" (HTML). This seems to be what is in the "computer technology" classes my kids were forced into.

Those seem like garbage classes to me.

But... what should all people with a basic general education know about computer science?

Programming? It wouldn't be bad, I suppose, but it seems overkill. The fundamentals of how a computer works seems like a good idea, the major pieces and parts. What I think would be really valuable is a basic understanding of what computers cannot do. A little information theory, maybe? Should that be part of a math class? As a security guy, I'd really like the general populace to understand entropy and randomness as they relate to passwords and other user authenticators, and something about how computer security really works... what a vulnerability, what is an exploit, what is a virus, what is malware, etc.

What do you think an average high school graduate know about computer science and technology?

How about high schools actually insure that their charges know how to read, write, perform basic math, understand deadlines and work ethic, and handle critical thinking, time management, and problem solving, before trying to fit CS/IT into the 6 hour day?

UGH!

Re:What to teach?

[hambone142]

Wow. That's great news.

I guess I'll have to get my Gardner-Denver wirewrap tool out again :-)

(really, this is good news) SMT is a bitch to experiment with.

Re:What to teach?

[phantomfive]

Your enthusiasm is motivating me to try to build something....that stuff is fun to play with.

call a spade a spade, please

[jehan60188]

Google, Facebook, Microsoft need script-kiddies that they don't have to spend money training

Re:call a spade a spade, please

[Darinbob]

This is the reason. High tech today is mostly low tech. They want technicians, not engineers. They want a work force resmebling modern assembly line workers. This is what the big push for CS is about, because it's not really CS that they're teaching but skills to use a computer.

Re:call a spade a spade, please

[srichard25]

They need Americans to translate the requirements for the H1Bs, fill out the TPS reports, and try to get the offshore devs to sling out code that isn't a total bug-ridden mess.

Re:call a spade a spade, please

[Bengie]

From what I've read, these companies are hyper-competitive and only accept the best. If anything, they're trying to flood the market to free up the best from smaller companies so they can hoard them.

So much wrong with this...

[bradley13]

sent a letter to top education lawmakers in the House and Senate

K-12 education isn't a federal program, even if the Dept. of Education is a busybody. K-12 education works best when managed at the local level.

insisting that computer science "must" be added to the list of "core academic subjects"

Core subjects K-12 would be things like math, english, history and basic science.

[insisting that] states be given resources to improve STEM education programs.

Money grows on federal trees? Federal funding is lets the camel's nose into the tent. Once the states are used to having that "free money", the feds can demand anything they want. Like Michelle Obama's idiotic ideas on school nutrition. How about eliminating all federal educational involvement, instead?

"Computer science is marginalized throughout K-12 education,"

Because it isn't a core subject, nor should it be.

"We need to improve access for all students, particularly groups who have traditionally been underrepresented."

Why?

Re:So much wrong with this...

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Well if they mandated more math in high school it would go a long way.
When I was in high school only 2 years of math was required and the math that most students took was geometry and then some sort of applied math class that taught you the basics of math that you would have used every day. So I would say have a class on logic and Boolean algebra, maybe some additional discrete math, or a general class on algorithms but beyond that most kids won't get anything out of it.

I like to jokingly tell people that I have a degree in applied math as I have a CS degree.In truth a proper BS in CS is closer to an BS in Math than just about anything else for example I was 3 courses from having a dual major in CS and Math and just wanted to be done with college instead of stay an extra semester and get the double major.

Stop hiring h1b's and lower college costs

[Joe_Dragon]

Stop hiring h1b's and lower college costs

Re:Stop hiring h1b's and lower college costs

[Anonymous Coward]

The only way to lower college costs is to nix the government-backed student loans. That, of course, will never happen.

Anyway, the cost of college isn't the primary barrier-to-entry for IT workers. Plenty of women, for example, are in college and paying the same costs; they just aren't studying computer science.

I have no confidence that k-12 compsci education will somehow make more people want to study computer science in college. A lucrative, secure career where one is treated well would stimulate quite a lot of interest....but the industry has no interest in offering THAT.

How old is this?

[Anonymous Coward]

In any case, Wojcicki's daughter feels a lot better about computers these days. Her mom eventually put her in an all-girls computer camp and she started doing things like designing a watch that could get email, messages etc., which actually preceded the recent smartwatch trend.

I'm pretty sure the smartwatch trend is a few years old, and smart watches themselves are at least a decade old.

Re:How old is this?

[tnk1]

Well they did say it only "preceded the recent smartwatch trend". I don't think they were saying that she invented it or was even a first adopter.

Okay, yeah, she's not an engineer. Still, probably not bad for a kid who previously didn't have any desire to interact with a computer at all.

My only interest in that story is whether she actually likes working with computers now enough to become a programmer. Or is she still going to be a business or art history major when she goes to college because she's not really all that interested in the field except as something she did at "Summer Camp my Mom made me go to".

I work in K-12 education

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sitting at my desk right now in a public high school and we teach almost none of that.

Re:I work in K-12 education

[KGIII]

We stopped, entirely, teaching critical thinking. We substituted teaching civics in favor of teaching 'social studies.' The outcome does not surprise me.

Educate the Uninterested

[Cassini2]

Instead of excellence, the modern educational system says: "These students are interested in something, so let's educate a different group on the topic!"

People should be saying: "These students are interested in computer programming, let's make them better programmers!" Demand should be created through the celebration of accomplishments.

Taking away the achievements of the interested, results in mediocrity. Yes, it would be nice to have more girls in computer programming. However, the goal of the educational system is often to make everyone the same. To make the interested boys equal to the uninterested girls. Is this the solution we want? Because that is what the school system will implement. The modern school system is very good at targeting the average (or the below average). It sucks at enabling gifted students to excel.

Re:Educate the Uninterested

[Anonymous Coward]

... very good at targeting the average (or the below average)

Because modern society needs everyone to complete their tax returns and shop online. It doesn't need everyone or most people to understand political models, statistical correlation, or reasoning via logos and pathos. School does provide generic skills, but only those required for work: It doesn't teach individual rights under law, relationship skills, or hand-job techniques.

Re:Educate the Uninterested

[KGIII]

Somewhere along the lines, we went from a goal of equal rights to a goal equal outcomes. I can speculate as to where and when but that's immaterial, it's unlikely to change in the near-term. Look at how the focus has changed and the assumption is that if it's not an equal outcome then there's bias in the system. Preferences and individuality be damned - an equal outcome has become mandatory. I'm not sure how we'll achieve that without lowering standards but we'll see.

Re:Educate the Uninterested

[Hasaf]

I teach Computer Technology at a middle school.

I have been told, by the IT department (who have no place setting curriculum) that there will be no development environments or programming software installed and that I am not to teach it. This is due to a fear of, the undefined word, "hacking."

Further, I am, starting next semester, to stop teaching computer fundamentals and teach, only, applications. As such the intro to computers (parts of a computer, what is a network, that type of stuff . . . ) is out. Instead we will teach ONLY: Word, Publisher, Powerpoint, Photoshop, and Excel (and they are telling me to teach less Excel).

There are two reasons for this. The first is that many students are not interested in it. The second is that some of the other computer teachers in the district cannot teach it. Both of these factors weigh into the, perceived, need for a uniformity of skill and knowledge as the students enter the districts High Schools.

So, we will go heavy on Photoshop and Publisher because, "the students like making pictures." To fit this in, we will abandon any hardware or coding instruction because "it's just too hard for them" and "we cant have hacking."

Re:Educate the Uninterested

[Bing Tsher E]

Equal opportunity, more than equal rights, was what we had as a goal before.

Re:Educate the Uninterested

[Bing Tsher E]

Maybe try to establish an after-school club with Raspberry Pis? That takes it out of the domain of IT, which is probably the important thing to accomplish.

Re:Educate the Uninterested

[KGIII]

I include opportunity as a right. I probably could have been more specific but kind of figured it was included. With equal rights comes equal opportunities. I'm not sure why people expect equal outcomes. We are, biologically, different and certain people will naturally excel at certain things. This doesn't mean that they're not entitled to try or that they're unable to but it does mean we'll get different outcomes. I'm all for giving everyone the chance to do what they want to go in life. I'm just not sure that I'm for propping up failures or lowering standards to achieve some sort of equality that doesn't really make sense.

I hired the best I could. They were from a variety of walks of life. I wanted the best, I got the best. I paid out the ass for them, so to speak. It was worth it. Hell, they weren't even really that expensive. You ever price a serious printer room with a maintenance contract and supplies? Hardware to work with data sets in the TB range in the late 90s? Hell, software licenses for servers? Oracle??? Yeah... Employees were expensive but not really. I digress, however.

We're not going to get equal outcomes. We don't want equal outcomes unless we want to lower the standards. We want equal opportunity which is included in equal rights (by my reckoning).

Re:Educate the Uninterested

[phantomfive]

The modern school system is very good at targeting the average

I don't think it's very good at targeting the average, either.

Re:Educate the Uninterested

[Anonymous Coward]

Taking away the achievements of the interested, results in mediocrity.

Adding superfluous commas, ruins readability.

I'm sorry, Google, Facebook and Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

I do not want my kids to become code monkeys. Because that's what you are peddling. Computer science is a complex branch of mathematics that belongs in college, not high school.

Re:I'm sorry, Google, Facebook and Microsoft

[tnk1]

Computer science starts whenever you have the interest and skills to learn it. Most of the early CS shit I learned in college I could have done in junior high school. The rest of it was more dependent upon being able to find resources and a teacher who was able to give me some instruction on theory. That *could* be done in high school. Maybe not my senior classes, but certainly a substantial chunk of it could have been in HS.

I think we should have more CS resources in HS... for the willing. In no way should CS be on some standardized test taught by teachers who have a class full of bored kids. That will just suck money away from use on students who are actually interested in it, and will put that money to good use.

Amen!

[Anonymous Coward]

Congrats on Silicon Valley CEOs showing how money in politics can be detrimental to the USA. Many adults, including John Oliver, say they never use calculus. Even fewer adults will need to know computer programming, or get paid for it. So, why waste the kids' time?

CEO of YouTube and still can't afford two PCs?

[dsmatthews9379]

FFS what a mountain of bullshit!

My family of 7 probably survives on less than she spends on lunches and we still have one screen per person.

If your child has a bad attitude to anything it is because you are a bad parent, not because of anything your son does.

Which is lovely

[rsilvergun]

if you can afford a PC. Lots of families can't. They've gotten so cheap we forgot that there are real poor in this country for whom $200 might as well be $200,000. 62% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck.

On another note, you're unusually bright (assuming you learned on your own). Either that or you just happen to have access to some really, really good magazines. Or both. Either way what do you do if you hit a wall for whatever reason and there isn't a Magazine there for you? If you have a mentor you'll get past it, but odds are if you're one of those dirt poor kids you don't have that.

I guess there's always your bootstraps. It's telling that the metaphor we use for self reliance is physically impossible. Could it be that almost nobody really makes it on their own? For all it makes us uncomfortable maybe, just maybe, there is something to the phrase "You didn't build it".

Re:Which is lovely

[Bengie]

They can't afford a $30 Raspberry Pi, but they can afford a $600 iPhone? I know plenty of families making less than $30k/year household income, have kids, a big screen TV, deluxe cable, smart phones, a few game consoles, but no computers. Don't tell me it's because they can't "afford" a computer.

What if they're right?

[rsilvergun]

I'm serious. There is such a thing as being right, you know? Yes, people are out to get you, but you can't let that get in the way of using the tools that are available to you. What's the old saying: The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing you he didn't exist. Well the greatest trick the Right Wing every played was convincing you to abandon gov't out of fear. They right wing haven't abandoned gov't. They use it to their advantage. Here's another way to think of it. Imagine there's an open crate of fully loaded automatic rifles. There's a couple guys running around shooting people. Do you look at the rifles and say "I'm not gonna pick that up, I might shoot my eye out!". That's gov't. A powerful, dangerous tool. But a tool that's going to get used whether you like it or not.

As for the dems aren't even close to the level of the Republicans, though plenty have tried. But I'll take what I can get. Bernie Sanders is a good start.

I don't see any of it by choice

[rsilvergun]

what I see are cycles of poverty reinforced by decisions that aren't made by the children. They don't choose for their moms to drink a little while they're pregnant, or not eat enough or see the doctor enough because of poverty (the Republicans have been chipping away at WIC for ages). They don't pick their underfunded schools with their 49 student class sizes full of special ed kids that disrupt the class every 5 minutes (if they try to go to the nice districts their parents get in trouble, a woman went to jail for it, google it). They don't choose to come from broken homes with no father because he had no job because it was shipped off to Mexico when free trade kicked in. They pick none of that

Put another way, why is it that after 250 years of bad discussions being made before their born that when a kid turns 18 their suppose to magically ignore all that, reach for their boot straps and solve all their problems? As a teacher you must know it's physically to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right?

Re:I don't see any of it by choice

[KGIII]

Oh, I'm not a teacher by trade. I'm just a citizen who managed to sell his business and was able to retire comfortably. I do what I do because it's the right thing to do. I did do some teaching, after retirement, but that was at the collegiate level.

I don't have answers other than what was stated. Do what you can, even if it's just a little. You'll never get perfection. You can try to make it a little better. Even if it's just a little. If we all did that then maybe, just maybe, we can turn things around. We've lost the sense of community. Get out of the city and visit an old New England town. It's even dying there.

Just because I don't have answers doesn't mean I can't see the problem. I do what I can because that's my job. This isn't a holier than thou type of thing. It's not meant to be, at least. It's just what I've chosen and what I think is the start to finding meaningful solutions.

The War Against Boys

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

http://www.amazon.com/The-WAR-...

Monopolized computer

[manu0601]

boys — like her own son — are monopolizing the family computer across America

There is an easy fix: buy a second computer. I am certain the CEO of Youtube can afford that.

Susan Wojcicki

[hackwrench]

What's wrong with Susan Wojcicki? Surely she can afford enough computing devices for everyone in her family. What a case of messed up priorities.

Better Off Dead reference

[sacrilicious]

Google, Facebook, Microsoft deliver K-12 demands

"I want my two dollars!"

A monumental wasted effort. Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because no one wants high school kids to code for them, they want people to have done college. However, no college CS school requires or even recommends that a kid should have done CS at high school... They ONLY care about Calculus and Physics as requirements.

it's a local issue...

[Anonymous Coward]

not federal. school boards (or states, dictated by state (dictators).. ahem, texas, et al) set curriculum, not the feds.....

computer sciences was a requirement for high school graduation at my *public* high school........

THIRTY YEARS ago.