California's $68 Billion Bullet Train Project Faces Major Hurdles (latimes.com)

New submitter willworkforbeer writes: The proposed US$68B high speed rail project in California faces extraordinary hurdles, both in terms of budget and timeframe. Even Einstein (no, not that one; Herbert Einstein, an MIT civil engineer and top tunneling expert) says the schedule is probably not possible. "Having looked at a number of these long tunnels, [the California] plan is aggressive," said Einstein, who has consulted on a 35-mile-long tunnel under the Swiss Alps. "From a civil engineering perspective it is very, very ambitious — to put it mildly."

New York's 11-mile East Side Access tunnel project is 14 years late and about 2.5x its original budget. If California's 72 miles of tunnels (twin tunnels of 36 miles) go like New York's, that would be over US$160B spent, with an opening date sometime in the 2030s. The article goes through a number of complicating factors for the tunnels, from the major faults they must cross to the melange of rock types they must drill through.

Comments

People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who didn't know this was a giant fucking scam before it even got off the ground has to be a fucking idiot.

Re:People still don't know?

[amiga3D]

I don't know that it's entirely a scam. Any big budget state project is going to have it's share of graft and corruption. That much money brings out all the greedy fuckers. They need to put someone in charge of the money who will make a real attempt to prosecute every single person who attempts to gouge the taxpayers.

Re:People still don't know?

[fustakrakich]

They need to put someone in charge of the money who will make a real attempt to prosecute every single person who attempts to gouge the taxpayers.

Yeah, and his protection will cost more than the project.

Re:People still don't know?

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

The graft and corruption is the purpose of such mega government projects. The bigger it is, the more skimming you can hide.

All the prime drivers need is some True Believers to offer meme rationale. Most other politicians, if they think of it at all, think "Cool! Lots of union construction jobs!"

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

the way it works in the army is the auditing costs more than the graft

Re:People still don't know?

[jcr]

I don't know that it's entirely a scam.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

They need to put someone in charge of the money who will make a real attempt to prosecute every single person who attempts to gouge the taxpayers.

I agree, but what do you seriously think the chances of this might be? I place it right between infinitesimal and nil.

-jcr

Re:People still don't know?

[jcr]

there is nothing inherently wrong with government investment in infrastructure

Of course there is. Whenever resources are allocated politically, wealth is wasted, people are diverted from work that produces goods and services that we actually want, and government power is increased.

projects that create jobs.

Government projects NEVER create jobs. They divert money and labor from productive to unproductive activity.

-jcr

Re:People still don't know?

[zippthorne]

The purpose of an infrastructure job shouldn't be the construction jobs that will result from creating it. The purpose should be to reduce cost (in time or resources) of transportation of people and goods to points within the covered area.

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it was a total scam from day one. The assumptions that it was sold with were a complete lie that didn't even match the reality of the state of California's own estimates.

Re:People still don't know?

[Harlequin80]

Right...... Because the private sector will always allocate resources into areas that are needed for society to function.

Seriously even the most crazy anti-government person has to admit that there are places where the needs of a community and the needs of corporations don't align and hence a government is required to divert funds towards projects that the private sector would not have built.

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they should privatize the roads and put a toll booth right in front of your house so you have to pay 3 bucks to get in and out of your driveway. If you complain you're a communist.

Re:People still don't know?

[serviscope_minor]

Seriously even the most crazy anti-government person has to admit that there are places where the needs of a community and the needs of corporations don't align and hence a government is required to divert funds towards projects that the private sector would not have built.

I shall defeat your claim with a card of +5 summon Roman Mir

PS you must be new here.

Re:People still don't know?

[andymadigan]

Do you seriously think the Interstate Highway System didn't create jobs? Or diverted money and labor to unproductive activity? I'll bet the ROI on it has been way higher than the cost.

Similarly, without an efficient way to move passengers, the state will end up spending more than the cost of the railroad on airport and highway expansion.

Re:People still don't know?

[LiquidAvatar]

No... I know the most crazy anti-government person and he'd admit no such thing. He'd suggest that the free market forces would inspire the community to move to a place where corporations can more efficiently satisfy their needs (or that the community should stratify so that only the independently wealthy live in such an expensive place, as they, through their money, are able to take care of themselves in all regards).

Re:People still don't know?

[Harlequin80]

Not new here and I knew it was a pointless comment but still......

That said I must be kinda new as I don't get your reference to Roman Mir.

Re:People still don't know?

[Harlequin80]

Including the military?

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well we are talking a majority of blue Californians. Regardless of the cost, if it sounds good it must be alright.

Re: People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

No one is going to ride this train at the cost of a ticket price that will be higher than other options . In nyc to Boston market , there is a line down the block to get on the $10 mega bus to Boston that take 5 hours vs the quick Acela Express . Did I merino you need to walk two long cold blocks from the nearest subway to get to the outdoors bus stop . Any greenhouse gas saving vs just flying or driving is quickly chewed up by the amount of gases released in construction

Re:People still don't know?

[transfire]

That may be the case for CA (it does seem like it) but it was not the case for the train in FL -- which is why the Republicans killed it. It's really all about the Oil.

Re:People still don't know?

[jcr]

the private sector will always allocate resources into areas that are needed for society to function.

It allocates resources into areas that people are willing to pay for on a voluntary basis. That doesn't include things like trains without enough riders to break even, or drones to kill kids in Pakistan, oddly enough.

-jcr

Re:People still don't know?

[mikael]

The last time California tried to propose such a train system, every small town and city in between LA and SF would only grant permission for the tracks to be laid on their land if they got their own train station with guaranteed stops.

Re:People still don't know?

[mikael]

It will also stimulate construction jobs around the junctions or spurs that connect to that infrastructure. If you have two points A and B that are 100 miles away and connected by a new freeway, then every point between these two is now also connected. Just like between SF and SJ.

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever used electricity in Las Vegas? Have you ever received any goods shipped by truck over an interstate highway?

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Anyone who didn't know this was a giant fucking scam before it even got off the ground has to be a fucking idiot."

Of course. All you need to do is divide the costs by the number of tickets sold to see that, in order to pay for itself, the tickets would have to be about $2000 each. That's before we double or triple the build cost due to corruption, pretend there's no such thing as interest, and ignore the fact that once it's in operation, you have to pay for employees and maintenance.

Like you said, only a fucking idiot ...

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you are an anarchist, the military is the basic reason for government, so to answer your question, "no".

Re:People still don't know?

[Harlequin80]

Or enough weapons to defend yourself from another nation state either.

Or public education so that your future generations can be better off.

Re:People still don't know?

[davester666]

As long as taxes don't go up!

Re:People still don't know?

[fustakrakich]

No, they'll just cut corners, like on the new Bay Bridge, damn thing might not last 20 years...

Re:People still don't know?

[KGIII]

He's our resident "anarcho-capitalist." I.e. insane.

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, nothing like those pure, altruistic private projects to show us the path, huh?

Why is someone who couldn't even spell his user name properly giving us lessons on anything in life?

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, but if you fly from LA to San Francisco does the plane stop anywhere along the way? The only way to deal with this issue is to provide jobs to maintain the line, which a high-speed train will definitely need. Then they might be able to put it above ground and save on the insane cost of tunneling.

Re:People still don't know?

[cupnoodleboy]

Many government projects are done to satisify real need of society, and resources allocated in these projects are not result of politically based decision. On the other hand, in private business it is also not uncommon to have resources allocated politically, for example, to hire a subcontractor who is a good friend of the CEO. Hence, snch wastes can be found in both government and private businesses.

If you really believe that all government projects are unproductive activity, perhaps you can migrate to places like Somalia, where the government is very weak and doing very little. However, so far history suggests that places without a functioning government always fall into chaos and have very poor economics development.

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, or at least not if you want it to actually be high speed rail. You want only major stops on express trains. You might be able to offer some local service along the same corridor, but then you need an awful lot of sidings for the locals while the high speed line breezes by. In fact, there is probably a case to be made for routing it along a rural 'bypass' route for safety and noise purposes.

Re:People still don't know?

[dbIII]

It worked for the Romans and plenty since. Your local graft, corruption etc is not the norm globally and not the norm historically. I suspect if more people where you are bothered to vote there would be less opportunity for the corrupt to get elected. "jcr", do you bother to vote or are you just complaining about something you are not willing to improve with very minor effort on your part?

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right...... Because the private sector will always allocate resources into areas that are needed for society to function.

California doesn't need a high speed train. The demand for long distance travel in the state is already well satisfied by bus, automobile, standard rail and commercial airlines. There are viable options for every budget and time frame at competitive market prices. The train is a massive waste of resources in a state that can ill-afford to waste them. We ought to be spending that money on securing our water supplies against the possibility of a 1000 year drought, as has occurred in the distant past in this state, not building a 160 billion dollar high speed boondoggle that will be a money loser to build and on every trip it ever makes.

Re:People still don't know?

[fredgiblet]

It's not "chaos", it's "freedom"!

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

The train is already going to be above ground. The tunnels are just where they need to go through mountains. Sure, a few cities in the Bay Area want to put it in a trench (which is less expensive than a tunnel, but still potentially billions of dollars), but the planning and cost estimates don't budget for that -- the cities will have to put up (the money themselves) or shut up. Or more likely, continue to complain and file lawsuits.

Re:People still don't know?

[dunkelfalke]

ouch, roman_mir is heavy artillery. lesser ones like mi or khallow would suffice, i guess.

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who didn't know this was a giant fucking scam before it even got off the ground has to be a fucking idiot.

I didn't know... but I live very far away from California and don't track local California politics, issues, etc. Sorry if that makes me an idiot in your eyes :(

Re: People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't need high speed rail? What! Do you have any idea how long it takes to get from LA to SF via rail today, if you can even get there without having to transfer to a bus? Freight gets priority over passenger which can add many many hours to a trip. High speed rail is needed on both coasts.

Re:People still don't know?

[AmiMoJo]

It doesn't include any roads except the ones between an individual's house and their job/wallmart either.

It's not perfect but it's the only system that actually works.

Re:People still don't know?

[toadlife]

trains without enough riders to break even

Wrong.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

Amtrak routes that high speed rail will replace actaully have plenty of passengers and make money. It's only the cross country routes that are the big money losers. Amtrak has wanted to shutter the routes but congress wont let them.

Re:People still don't know?

[toadlife]

Or public education so that your future generations can be better off.

You might be surprised.

The chair of the local Republican Party of the county I live in is against ALL government funding of education.

That includes K-12.

Re:People still don't know?

[Spy Handler]

Do you even live here? Anyone who has remotely paid any attention to it in the last 10 years by reading local (small) newspapers knew as soon as the proposal went through that this whole thing was

1) totally unneccessary; who the hell wants to go from LA to Fresno?
2) zero interest from the public, meaning it will not attract enough riders
3) benefit politicians and the well-connected: such as, husband of Diane Feinstein (the infamous senator) - who won a $1 billion contract

Re:People still don't know?

[serviscope_minor]

He's one of the local crazy anti government types who would not in fact admit what you just insisted he would admit :)

Given you're posting on politics and clearly aren't new here, I'm slightly surprised you haven't encountered him yet. He's not been terribly active recently but comes and goes.

Re:People still don't know?

[Reziac]

But when the project is finished, all those jobs go away.

So ideally, the project will never be finished. /sarcasm

The guy a few posts uphill is right. This is actually about skimming the public trough, and is therefore being done as inefficiently as possible.

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please recall that this project is taking place in America.

Re:People still don't know?

[Harlequin80]

Wow. I thought public education was something that all but the fringe crazies realised made everyone better off. To be chair of the party and still hold that view is scary.

Re: People still don't know?

[Hussman32]

Hard to tell, but the estimates that I've read for the train are 6 million people annually travel the LA/SF corridor, which for this 68 billion dollar project amounts to about $100 per person per year for 10 years in capital expenses alone. However, as there is no way all six million could take the train (365 days a year, assume 10 trains daily both ways, 3,650 trips, assume 500 capacity per trip, 1.85 million people at 100% capacity, which won't happen)...I don't see who we are helping here because the ticket costs would exceed the comparable airline costs.

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

This number is beyond imagination. Why do they have to dig tunnels? Because the mass of a train is such that it can't be turned at high speed without fantastic forces. A hyperloop would use smaller cabins holding only a dozen or 2 people, possibly a car or something. The total weight would be far less than a single cab of a train. Instead of boring through mountains the hyperloop could be built as a slowly ascending and descending tube that would be held on stilts that were spring loaded so they could bounce during earthquakes. Earthquakes would cause damage and people may die just as with a bullet train but it would be limited to far fewer passengers since at most a few cars would be affected before they could be stopped. The cars are estimated to be spaced by a few minutes so when an earthquake was detected it could instantly trigger a power cut to the trains and with less mass they could slow down faster as well. Another possibility is since the hyperloop vehicles go so fast you could go way out of the way to avoid the mountains and still be much faster than any regular train. New technology just developed for hovering skateboards might be applicable to the hyperloop vehicles making the transportation system even more practical and inexpensive. Building a train that goes a small fraction of the speed of a plane and having the cost and maintenance of these kinds of vehicles is ridiculous. Hyperloop may need some research yet but even with that and cost overruns it wouldn't be 1/2 the price of the train system and even more compelling the operational costs would be a fraction of the bullet train. Trains have tracks and many moving frictional and wearing parts that are constantly in need of repair as well as exposure to elements and high costs of fuel they are massively more expensive to operate than a hyperloop vehicle.

Re:People still don't know?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, building a hyperloop puts california where it should be as a leading edge state developing the technology and doing this project would create many jobs that are much better paying than the train system. However, it wouldn't create as many jobs clearly because it would cost vastly less. Hopefully the millions of workers could do something else which would increase the states GDP more than the train. The hyperloop by building new technology would bring new contracts and business to california as other states and countries seek to copy it. I don't know why we keep talking about a train. Its stupid. Forget about it. The only choice is which hyperloop system and supplier not a train PLEASE.

I can't help but wonder

[rsilvergun]

who's this for? By the sound of it It's going to be so expensive that if I could afford to take it I'd just take a plane instead. Maybe if we didn't all have cars, but again if you can afford to ride this you can afford a car, and you're probably going to prefer that. If it's just pork I'm surprised it made it though.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[zenlessyank]

I also wonder how much housing could be built for disabled & poor folks. So many things $68 billion could buy besides a penis mobile.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

who's this for?

Union workers?

If there's no other visible explanation for a government project, odds are good that it's a way to funnel taxpayers' money to unions or bankers. I don't see the gain for bankers in this one.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

who's this for?

Union workers?

If there's no other visible explanation for a government project, odds are good that it's a way to funnel taxpayers' money to unions or bankers. I don't see the gain for bankers in this one.

Are you high? It's for politicians to get massive kickbacks and "financing".

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Yes, it will be hideously expensive, but the wealthy people who buy tickets to get to their important jobs will buy tickets that are massively subsidized by people who will never ride the train. So don't worry about the actual passengers, worry about the state of California.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

When progressive socialist dreams collide, it's a beautiful sight.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Hadlock]

It's for the people who come after us, for the next couple hundred years, either until Earth becomes uninhabitable or we build a better more comfortable transport technology. I know it's hard to think more than 15 years in to the future, but the first rail lines from the 1850s are still in continuous use 170 years later, NOW, and I don't hear anyone talking about the death knell of rail. We gave highways a whirl and while they're super convenient, it's obvious that they don't scale nearly as well as we had imagined they would. And also we realized that most people are too dumb for flying cars, so we're back to rail. Unless you come up with something else, a long term transportation solution needs to be put in place. Right now it's looking like high speed electric rail between population centers, and then self driving uber/google/apple cars between the high speed rail and your final destination. But first we need that high speed rail. It works pretty fantastically over in Europe, you should try it some time.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

It's for the politicians because a bullet train is a much better photo op than the self-driving cars that will be common way before the train is functioning. It's also for the politicians in the sense that it's a socialist program that fits their agenda.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you claiming there won't be any union workers collecting fat wages for building this boondoggle?

I guess they might be planning to hire illegals to work for $2 an hour, but it seems unlikely.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

The point of HSR is to make valuable real estate less concentrated. Build the 'home' stations in areas where land will appreciate and the 'work' stations in areas with high-paying jobs. The commuters using HSR daily/weekly will be the people who work in the expensive cities and who have the money to buy housing close to their home station.

My thinking is it is because California property taxes are capped to a fixed percentage, so they either need property values to grow faster than inflation or to scale-out the building of properties of the same value since they can't all be in SF.

This is the way it was done in Japan. This is the way it was done in Taiwan. I don't know if the other HSR projects around the world were done with the same land-value development in mind.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

If it is about the same price as a plane, and on the order of 2-5 hours, I will take the train over a plane any chance given (assuming they don't treat the train station like an airport). In Japan, for many routes the high speed train is about the same price if not a little more than the plane, and I use the train (as many coworkers and friends) whenever possible. You just get on at a train station as easy as getting on a subway, and you have way more leg room and ability to move around. You can get that on the plane, but for a price much, much higher than the train ticket. For shorter distances, the times work out about the same (for planes, ~30-60 minutes early arrival, plus maybe 30 minutes travel out of the city center, ymmv). But even if it adds an extra couple hours, it is worth it to me.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[ShanghaiBill]

By the sound of it It's going to be so expensive that if I could afford to take it I'd just take a plane instead.

This project will take decades to complete. By then there will be self-driving battery powered buses on I-5, for 1/3 the price of a ticket on this train. If you divide the likely cost of this train by the number of seats, it will cost about $500,000 PER SEAT. That is just the construction and capital cost. The operating cost will add even more. Nobody will be able to afford it without big on-going subsidies. Meanwhile, for the cost of a single train seat, you could buy several buses with over a hundred seats in total.

The solution is obvious: We need to ban the buses.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[AmiMoJo]

In Japan the rail company builds large shopping centres around each station. The rent it gets subsidises the fares.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[g01d4]

who's this for?

The current governor's father was also governor and is favorably known for his efforts in building the state's infrastructure. You can figure it from there. The special interests and Brown's reputation as a 'moderate' (in a heavily Democratic state) trump common sense diluted by the state's other issues.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[ShanghaiBill]

In Japan the rail company builds large shopping centres around each station. The rent it gets subsidises the fares.

In America, we build huge parking lots around the train stations. The assumption is that everyone will drive to and from the train station at each end of their journey.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[amiga3D]

If all they waste money on is "fat" wages they'll be way lucky. I'd bet there are a lot of contractors who've made big political donations that will siphon off the biggest rewards.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

When progressive socialist dreams collide, it's a beautiful sight.

Shhh! Be quiet! If you don't, they'll publish a front-page story about whether the workers involved in this project are female/black/hispanic/asian/jewish enough and whether "enough is being done" to reach out to people who didn't even apply because they aren't interested.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[amiga3D]

It's for the millions of people on the no-fly list.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you claiming there won't be any union workers collecting fat wages for building this boondoggle?

I guess they might be planning to hire illegals to work for $2 an hour, but it seems unlikely.

Yes but at least by hiring Hispanic illegals (face it - we don't have a problem with white Canadians hopping borders) they will prove how diverse, inclusive, and equal-opportunity they can be! Oh the SJWs will sing their praises. They like illegal immigration anyway.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[whoever57]

If you divide the likely cost of this train by the number of seats, it will cost about $500,000 PER SEAT.

Just how much is the capital cost per seat of the planes that are the real competition for this train?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[TheReaperD]

This is for the Silicon Valley and Hollywood elites to go back and forth between San Francisco and Los Angeles. It's currently a 5+ hour car ride in moderate traffic and taking a plane, even a private jet back and forth would take just as long due to traffic and air clearance. I think the project is a huge waste of money as our roads and bridges are backlogged with $21 billion dollars in repairs and maintenance but, the 1% doesn't care what anyone else thinks.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[tomhath]

The point of HSR is to make valuable real estate less concentrated.

That's not what this pork project will do. It is not a commuter railway. And besides, what you describe only moves the valuable real estate to some other location (near the train stops), it doesn't solve any problems.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[tomhath]

Are you high? It's for politicians to get massive kickbacks and "financing".

Right. Add who will be paying those kickbacks? The unions.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

I would show you how much I worry about The California People and the problems they pull upon themselves via the politicians they elect, except Slashdot does not allow popcorn eating emotes.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

It does not move the real estate. It allows for more valuable real estate to be developed. The valuable real estate located near the high-paying employers is going to stay valuable because it can't be moved. HSR allows more areas -- TBD through the mechanism of choosing where HSR stations are placed -- to be developed into valuable real estate.

Like I said -- HSR allows property taxes to scale out since it can not be scaled up due to Prop 13.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[tomhath]

It's for the people who come after us

The people who come after us (and those with a clue today) realize that video conferencing makes most business travel unnecessary. So now you're left with vacationers going from SF to LA - no need for this train to service that crowd.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

It is common for government to tax the hell out of things that compete effectively with their overpriced, boobdoggle, unionized government employee-loaded Peoples' Great Works.

So watch out for that. Detroit Metro airport built a giant parking structure and long-term parking lot that could not compete with private lots miles away that had to shuttle people in, so they slapped a 30% surcharge on those lots.

They also made it illegal for local hotels to let customers leave their cars in their hotel lots. Lots of outstate people would drive in and spend the night before flying out the next morning, and free parking was a service the hotels gladly provided. Now that is illegal.

The People's hatred and fear of government is well-earned.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Applehu Akbar]

It would be nice to see socialists actually build something for a change, the way they did in the Thirties.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[ShanghaiBill]

If you divide the likely cost of this train by the number of seats, it will cost about $500,000 PER SEAT.

Just how much is the capital cost per seat of the planes that are the real competition for this train?

Irrelevant. Those are either sunk costs (airports) or paid for by the private sector (planes). If it isn't going to be paid for with my future taxes, I don't care what it costs.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

> By the sound of it It's going to be so expensive that if I could afford to take it I'd just take a plane instead.

It won't be. All infrastructure projects appear to be hideously expensive. You must spread the initial expense, along with maintenance over 100 years (no joke) to arrive at a reasonable number.

Infrastructure projects outlast all of us. Don't let short-term thinking blind you.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Hadlock]

This may shock you, but most people aren't robots, and you still can't replace human interaction with video conferencing. Most people would frown at the idea of eating thanksgiving dinner around a table surrounded by glowing screens. Video conferencing only exists as a bandaid that fixes the problem that existing transportation methods suck. Fix the root issue and the need for video conferencing goes away. Your argument still doesn't solve the problem that college students will want to go home on some weekends, holidays will not evaporate, and not all problems can be fixed remotely.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[jcr]

The point of HSR is to make valuable real estate less concentrated.

Bullshit. The point of HSR is loot the taxpayers for the benefit of politicians and their cronies. If there was any intention to reduce the concentration of valuable real estate, the governments involved would start with dialing back their hostility to new construction.

-jcr

Re:I can't help but wonder

[jcr]

The People's hatred and fear of government is well-earned.

And regrettably, it's far too mild.

-jcr

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Kohath]

Just curious: Where do you think disabled and poor folks live now? Why do you think they need a huge amount of new housing?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[fnj]

We gave highways a whirl and while they're super convenient, it's obvious that they don't scale nearly as well as we had imagined they would.

Highways have problems scaling to very high traffic densities. Railways don't scale to very low traffic densities, or allow servicing geographical tree distributions. They are for hubs.

The two are complementary.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

It would be nice to see socialists actually build something for a change, the way they did in the Thirties.

Now, that's amusing.

Feel free to list out all of the stunning projects that Conservatives have built.

Let's see, there was the Star Wars missile shield, the Operation Iraqi Liberation, and we don' have any more Welfare Queens driving their brand new Cadillacs to pick up their Welfare checks (But hey, at least they drove American cars!)

And while you're listing these wonderful accomplishments out, let's try to remember that Eisenhower would be a liberal if he were to be measured by today's conservative movement.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

you bring up thanksgiving, but he specifically made the point that it eliminates the need for commuters to commute as much. you are arguing a different point than the one being made

but what about those poor college kids. well they cant afford tickets because the commuters are not riding it (they telecommute) and therefore each ticket needs to be higher in cost to maintain the trains

this is a project that is doomed to end up like amtrak, a boondoggle ~ GD

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

How about the interstate highway system? Arguably the most valuable infrastructure project in US History. It actually served a puropose that benefited all. And only cost about 450 billion in today's dollars. Far less than we spend on one year of Social Security and Medicare.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Catamaran]

Get a room you two.

Re: I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

It's for the illegal immigrants so they can can more easily leach money from central and Northern California, Oregon and Washington. No one will use it.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Hadlock]

I addressed his point and covered additional issues. I don't think it's destined to go the way of Amtrak, which shares lines with Freight. Dedicated commuter rail is fast and on time. More astute way of putting it would be to say it's like European high speed rail, or Uber, where the convienience of it drives further adoption. Everywhere high speed rail is installed, it drives adoption. People said what you said about the DART rail system in Dallas, and it beat is ridership projections by 5x in the first year.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Yes, that was Eisenhower, a liberal, by today's standard.

And people were screaming about how it was full of government pork and we shouldn't build it back them. We called them conservatives at the time.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[ChunderDownunder]

Elites? SF LA is the 2nd busiest domestic air route in the US with roughly 10,000 passengers/day.

Emissions per capita of taking planes out of the sky and cars off the road?

As for your backlog of maintenance, that's surely simply a matter of neglect for a wealthy state with a GDP greater than Canada...

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worse still. At $50/ticket you need 274k daily riders.

If you assume a modest 5% maintenance cost, and $100b price tag. You need revenue of $5b/year to operate and maintain this abomination.
So, 5,000,000,000 / 365 = $13.7m/day in revenue required
at even $50/ticket that's 274k riders per day.

And this is i'm confident way below what the actual costs will be. tax payers will subsidizing this thing forever.

population LA : 3.9m
population SF: 837k

Re:I can't help but wonder

[whoever57]

Irrelevant. Those are either sunk costs (airports) or paid for by the private sector (planes). If it isn't going to be paid for with my future taxes,

It's quite relevant because it is an indication of whether the high-speed rail is economically viable.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Type44Q]

Get a room you two.

Get a fucking comma, dumbass!

Re:I can't help but wonder

[guruevi]

Does it matter? It puts people at work and it adds value to the state, it is basically money that prints itself. The problem sits obviously in the corporations levying their taxes on it. But it is a better investment than 'defense'.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

Its amazing how many people complain here about something that will be useful, and say a lot less for the trillion a year the military takes and achieves absolutely nothing year in and year out...

Re: I can't help but wonder

[wheeda]

I believe the self driving car will be the answer. The various problems have been discussed here before, but they really fit the American lifestyle with a much more smooth transition than trains.

I'm a red Californian, and I voted for this boondoggle because I have small kids. I knew it was a poor decision when I made it.

I wish these bills came up with fixed contract with some company that would perform the contract, or not get paid. That is the answer for these ridiculous problems. If you can't get a company to agree to do it for the prescribed price, there is no reason to vote to do it.

Re: I can't help but wonder

[wheeda]

Unclear.... Small kids that like trains.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

The interstate highway system was modeled on the German Autobahn built in the 1930's, designed as means for rapid car transport. That had the side effect of achieving full employment of the population.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Applehu Akbar]

Once upon a time, socialists built Hoover Dam and the TVA, including a lot of projects that conservatives of the time opposed as being unnecessary spending. But during the Seventies, the political positions switched, with the children of the New Dealers relentlessly opposing every energy and transportation project proposed. California high-speed rail is just the latest.

Today, even pure scientific research is under attack. Now astronomy, the least polluting of the sciences, is being driven out of our country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:I can't help but wonder

[zenlessyank]

Right underneath the I-10 underpass and any undeveloped woody area near the freeway. Also anywhere near a Habitat for Humanity or just straggling around busy intersections.... O wait, I guess you are from France or Brazil where there are no homeless or abandoned disabled peoples. /s

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Somehow I knew that response was coming. Not really.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Kohath]

And how many of these people do you think are living under bridges? What number of housing units should be built for people living under bridges?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KGIII]

When the rail lines opened in the UK they blew estimates out of the water. People would ride them, multiple times per day, just to ride them. They put in a huge, deep, tunnel that the press said was going to kill people and, yet, people went and rode that train multiple times just to experience the tunnel.

If they put the train in - I'd probably take it for a spin just to cross it off my list of things that I've done. I'm not exceptional in these regards. I'd not make a special trip t do it but I'd certainly take it if I were in the area and had the time.

Also, as this progresses, look for large land purchases -- even past land purchases and then look for ties between those who are pushing for it and those who stand to gain by the increased valuation.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[cupnoodleboy]

Fire is something to be feared, and some people may have a valid reason to hate fire. But while fire can be very destructive, it can also be very useful if used correctly. In some way, a government is also like fire. It can be highly useful if run correctly, but can be destructive if run incorrectly. People should spend their effort to make the government works for the interests of the public, not to fear or hate a government.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[ShanghaiBill]

It's quite relevant because it is an indication of whether the high-speed rail is economically viable.

No it isn't. All the people taking planes are not going to switch to the train. The planes will still be available, and will still be faster. And there will be other options 20-30 years from now, when this train is finally ready, ... like high-speed self driving vans/buses, and slow self-driving "sleeper vans" that pick you up at 11pm from your home, and deliver you, fully rested, to the front door of your destination at 8am the next morning. They will be electric (no CO2) and since they drive slowly and can convoy in platoons, they will be very economical. If they cost $50k each, then 10 of them will cost less than the capital cost of a single seat on the train.

The "cost per seat" of the train is only meaningful if you know you can fill it. If you look at the projected ticket prices, and the other options that will be available, that is very unlikely.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

Infrastructure projects outlast all of us. Don't let short-term thinking blind you.

I've got a bridge to nowhere that I'd like to sell you. It'll go nicely with your subsidized trains.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

it is an indication of whether the high-speed rail is economically viable.

If anybody other than those who ride the train are paying for it, it's not economically viable. How's that for ya?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

This project will take decades to complete. By then there will be self-driving battery powered buses on I-5, for 1/3 the price of a ticket on this train.

Decades, that is 20 years or more. By then we have useable fusion power.

I still think it is a good idea to finish this project, just in case self-driving buses and fusion power also gets behind schedule.

Re: I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

I fly SAN to SJC and back every month. If high speed connects them, I will ride it.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[shilly]

Are you saying you don't believe infrastructure projects have a shelflife that exceeds a human lifespan?

The London Underground - 152 years old and still going strong - would beg to differ. And it doesn't go nowhere - it goes from Edgware to Morden (via Bank or Charing Cross) and quite a lot of other places besides.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Somehow I knew that response was coming. Not really.

Can that have been because I had previously specifically stated that using Eisenhower was not permissible?

So, is there another infrastructure project you can credit the conservatives with building? No?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

But during the Seventies, the political positions switched, with the children of the New Dealers relentlessly opposing every energy and transportation project proposed. California high-speed rail is just the latest.

Bullshit. Pure unadulterated bullshit. Not only was I alive but I voted and was very active in politics all through the 1970s. I don't know why you would post such a incredible fantasy but it is easily disproved. In case reality happened to slip your mind, the 1970s was a time of incredible inflation and massive unemployment. And what do Socialists like to do when we have unemployment? Why, they like to create huge infrastructure projects.

Today, even pure scientific research is under attack. Now astronomy, the least polluting of the sciences, is being driven out of our country: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Yes, sadly, I know that is the case.

And I also know that it wasn't the socialists who killed the US particle accelerator nor is it the socialist who are attacking science. But I suspect that you knew that as well.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

This is essentially the concept of high speed 2 (HS2) in the UK on top of reducing constraint on the rail network on the western main line.

It provides a direct high speed connection between London -> Birmingham -> Splits one to Manchester the other to Leeds. The total cost is £50B, but it essentially means you could commute from Birmingham to London in 40 minutes a distance of 125 miles. You will see a combination of companies transfering headquaters out to Birmingham and workers being able to travel into London at short notice.

Highspeed rail is brilliant and beats out flying in a lot of ways. I am currently on the high speed east coast main line travelling from York to Edinburgh and can get 2.5 hours work done (first class of course!), and get served a hot breakfast all without getting pillaged by security like i would at an airport.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly I catch high speed rail in Europe regularly for business travel and it makes life wonderful. I can't imagine having to drive and fly everywhere (except long haul). Even my little country village has a rail stop, and my favourite thing about is it being able to pop out for a few pints after work with colleagues and then travel home on the train with other people from my village who had the same idea only to pop into the village pub to have chat in the evening after work. There are school children and the elderly all on the same carriage chatting and interacting and I am sure it does a wonderful job of instating a feeling of community and civic pride in the individuals. I know it sounds positively Victorian, but life needs a little romance we are not all built as machines and I fear the reason large swathes of modern America are such a cultural wasteland is due to the abandonment of public transport and the rise of the individual and his automobile.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

How does that even work? Does everyone who uses the train have two cars, one at each end?
For trains to work well you ether need someone to pick you up at the other end or buses/taxis to pick people up and take them to their destination.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[zenlessyank]

probably about 30,000. $68 billion dollars worth. now stop trolling.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

This may shock you, but most people aren't robots, and you still can't replace human interaction with video conferencing. Most people would frown at the idea of eating thanksgiving dinner around a table surrounded by glowing screens. Video conferencing only exists as a bandaid that fixes the problem that existing transportation methods suck. Fix the root issue and the need for video conferencing goes away. Your argument still doesn't solve the problem that college students will want to go home on some weekends, holidays will not evaporate, and not all problems can be fixed remotely.

Tough shit... In the future people are going to need to make sacrifices if they want to keep the planet livable. Going home to see mommy and daddy on the weekends during college will be the least of people's problems in the future.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[jabuzz]

Here is two examples from Scotland, the first from seven years ago where in the first year usage was three times the predicated volume

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

The second is the newly reopened Borders railway which while a bit early to be sure looks to be following a similar pattern

http://www.scotsman.com/news/t...

Unfortunately this reopening was botched with the 16 miles of double track being knocked back to 9 by the SNP. Also the track was laid in the middle of the formation, making re-instatement of double track difficult and disruptive. Also stupid penny pinching cost-cutting meant new bridges were built for single line with no future proofing for success.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Applehu Akbar]

Gee, you mean I was just imagining the harridan hordes of Hollywood stars and hippie mothers who filed useless delaying lawsuits against every single nuclear plant and domestic gas well and every mile of road and rail, who ripped up fields of GMO produce, who even tried to stop NASA from launching the Galileo and Cassini probes on grounds they were "sending nuclear power into space"?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Kohath]

A $2 million house for every man woman and child. $68 B / 30,000 = $2.27 M

Re:I can't help but wonder

[ShanghaiBill]

It's worse still. At $50/ticket you need 274k daily riders.

$50? No way. That is 12c per mile. No other high-speed train in the world has ticket prices anywhere near that cheap. In France, the cost is 50c per mile. In Germany it is 40c per mile. Even in China, where costs are way lower, and rail is heavily subsidized, the cost to the consumer for high speed rail between the big cities is 22c per mile.

The tickets for LA->SF are going to be over $100, and likely closer to $200. So it will be both slower and more expensive than flying. It will be also be way more expensive than driving, or taking a bus.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Coren22]

For a current example, look at the Keystone XL pipeline. This is a project proposed to reduce the Oil being transported by rail, which is an ongoing environmental disaster, but it is opposed by the Liberals because it would help the evil oil industry (not pollute as much...).

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Coren22]

It is slightly more difficult to hijack a train and drive it into a large building, so the security should be low.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Coren22]

Will it be slower when you factor in the 1 hour wait to be groped?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Coren22]

I guess we should tear up the highway system than because AC said it isn't economically viable.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Coren22]

Is that a comma used for fucking, or a comma in the act of fucking?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Coren22]

Considering the "Bridge to nowhere" was about a bridge to an airport, that would replace ferry service and allow year round operation of the airport, it made quite a bit of sense. I'm glad you brought that up while talking about projects which should be done.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[AmiMoJo]

They have cheap buses and cheap trains in Japan, competing with high speed rail. Much cheaper of course. People still choose the faster option.

I just had a look and the high speed train from Tokyo to Osaka takes 2.5 hours. A normal train takes an extra hour for the express, or 6-7 hours on normal trains. Buses are generally overnight, they don't even bother competing during the day. They are super cheap but super slow.

What you have to remember is that if the slow bus or slow train is the only option, many people just won't make that journey. If they can't sit comfortably around a table and work on the way, they won't go. Think about it, if stuff like that didn't matter, why would people bother flying, or paying extra to upgrade to business class? The great thing about high speed rail is that normal class is like luxury premium 1st class on an airplane, only quieter and about 1/30th the price.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

The Hoover Dam?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

The Hoover Dam was funded by the Boulder Canyon Act of 1928, which was passed under Calvin Coolidge, a conservative favorite.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Anonymous Coward]

All high speed rail all over the world is very expensive compared to regular rail. It is mainly used by rich people and those on expense accounts travelling for business. In California, this will mainly affect business travel on airlines, removing the business travel subsidy from pleasure travel, thus INCREASING the costs of travel for the average joe. In addition, it's the average joe who is paying for this through his energy bill, due to cap and trade.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

The Golden Gate Bridge? It seems you didn't bother to research any history.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

And a Republican Congress and Senate.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

In fact all the "Great" infrastructure projects of the 20th century, were conceived of and funded by Republicans. So shut your arrogant, ignorant mouth.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Ichijo]

The tickets for LA->SF are going to be over $100, and likely closer to $200. So it will be both slower and more expensive than flying.

Are you sure? Even today, the average cost of a flight between LA and SF is $145.58 according to GoFox.com. When the HSR line opens, you can be sure that airfares will be even higher.

Also, if you had read the business plan, you would know that they're planning to set ticket prices at 83% of airfares.

So for not just one but two reasons, you're wrong about it being more expensive than flying.

As for it being slower than flying, do you really think you can get from downtown Los Angeles to downtown San Francisco in less than 2 hours 45 minutes? The time in the air alone is over an hour, plus there's the taxi rides, getting through security, getting on and off the plane, and retrieving your luggage at the end of your flight. On a good day, if you're in a rush, and you don't miss your flight by being late to the airport, just maybe flying will be faster.

Also, did you know that sometimes bicyclist are faster than flying?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Ichijo]

Nobody will be able to afford it without big on-going subsidies.

Amtrak's Acela Express makes a profit. Why would California's HSR be any different?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KGIII]

One nit to pick... I've been all around the world. Literally. There's no cultural wasteland in America, watch fewer movies. They're just not as homogeneous but they still have plenty of culture. It's just dissimilar to what you're acclimated to.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[zenlessyank]

Hey!!! He does math too!!! How about you get me that list of indigents and those that gross under 20k a year and I will get you better numbers.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Applehu Akbar]

But by the time it was built, the Depression was biting deeply and the Republican Party had vanished entirely, not to return until the end of WW II brought a new set of issues to the political field. But fortunately, Thirties Democrats were the old can-do generation, not Boomers who reflexively oppose building anything significantly large. That's why the 2008 stimulus had to be frittered away on a miscellaneous host of projects too small to attract the attention of the Luddite lobby.

The euphemism they used, if you remember, was "shovel-ready." They knew that any attempt to build something on the scale of Hoover Dam today would cause most of the money to be spent on lawyers.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Que?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

The golden gate bridge? Are you suggesting that FDR was a conservative?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

The Hoover Dam was a conservative infrastructure project.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Is it your assertion that the Republicans during the early part of the 20th century were somehow even remotely ideologically aligned with the conservatives of today? That's beyond laughable.

Typically, one has to read Youtube comments to see someone make as profound a jackass out of themselves as you have done here. I'm proud of you.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

What the heck are you talking about? That all great, but it does not change the fact that the project was conceived, funded, and signed into law by Republicans.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

We could have built a hundred Hoover Dams or two hundred Golden Gate Bridges with the money that was spent on "stimulus' in 2008. Where did it go?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

No, it's my assertion that they were the conservatives of the early 20th century. I could say the same about progressives of the same era; they would be unrecognizable today. When the facts aren't convenient, attack.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

The Golden Gate Bridge was built without federal funding, you ignoramus. It was a project created and funded by Republicans. FDR had nothing to do with it.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

The Hoover Dam was a conservative infrastructure project.

I won't pretend to insult your intelligence by suggesting that you actually believe what you just wrote.

Is it your assertion that Calvin Coolidge, a man known as a Progressive Republican, would be considered a conservative in today's political climate? You do understand that it was Calvin Coolidge who signed the bill authorizing construction of the dam, right? Do you believe that Hiram Johnson, the man who repeatedly introduced legislation to authorize the dam, a man who was Teddy Roosevelt's running mate in the 1912 presidential election on the Progressive, aka Bull Moose, ticket was a conservative? That legislation was also co-sponsored by Phil Swing who was also known as a progressive Republican. Then we have Herbert Hoover, a man who tried to combat the Great Depression with government public works projects such as the Hoover Dam who you are claiming to be a conservative.

Right, I see your point.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

And yet, you seem to be repeatedly claiming that the Republicans of the early 20th century would be politically aligned with today's Republican Party. What is staggering about that assertion is that you can make it and then suggest I am ignorant. Exactly what does your colon look like from your viewpoint?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Hey, you didn't hurt yourself moving those goalposts, did you? And yes, I am attacking both you and your argument.

Here's something else for you to think about. During the period in history we are talking about, the Republicans were the more liberal of the two parties which is why many southern conservatives joined and then staunchly supported the Democratic Party. But you would have to actually understand our political history to know how wrong you are.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

When did I claim that?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Lol. I thought this whole conversation is about stimulating the economy with public infrastructure project. Are they a good thing or not?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Republicans have always been the more liberal of the two parties. In other words, the least authoritarian.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

When did I claim that?

When progressive socialist dreams collide, it's a beautiful sight.

Oh, I don't know...

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Clearly you don't know, because my previous statement quoted by you does nothing to reinforce your argument.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Lol. I thought this whole conversation is about stimulating the economy with public infrastructure project. Are they a good thing or not?

Hmm, as a personal commentary, I do believe infrastructure projects are an excellent way to stimulate the economy even including the many abuses which do occur.

But I'm a liberal, I would think that.

And which end of the political spectrum believes in stimulating the economy with large scale infrastructure projects?. Well, when Obama asked for a trillion and a half he got a lot less and it was the Republican controlled legislature who forced that compromise.

Interestingly enough, we have people here arguing that historically conservatives believed in these types of projects and to a certain extent that could be considered true - except that the conservatives of the 1920s would be considered as liberals today. Christ, Eisenhower would be called a RINO and kicked out of today's Republican Party, war hero and all.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Right. Sure.

Unless you want to do drugs or get an abortion or maybe marry outside of your race.

Then there's that entire, we should go to war thing what with the draft and all.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Oh, right, you were complimenting the Socialists. Yes, I see that now.

In a pig's eye.

I am all for honest discussion, seriously. But that's not really what you're looking for, is it?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Actually Democrats wanted almost no infrastructure spending as part of the stimulus bill. Large increases in infrastructure spending were pushed for by Republicans. Democrats refused, so it didn't get any Republican votes. Democrats just wanted a slush fund to pay off special interests. You can't revise history to fit your world view. Conservatives like infrastructure spending if it actually fulfills a need (see Hoover Dam, and Interstate Highway system). If it's just make work projects, and tax money for unions they generally refuse.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Calvin Coolidge is a conservative hero, you dolt.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Or defend yourself, educate your child as you see fit, keep money you earn, want to start a business, want bathroom fixtures that work, choose your own healthcare, buy the car you want, want inexpensive food, want to exercise free political speech, and many other things that "liberals" oppose.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Yes, the Republicans are the ones pushing infrastructure spending.

Right.

Senate GOP Blocks Obama's $60 Billion Infrastructure Plan

The Republican Budgets CUT Infrastructure Spending

If you need more of a reality check, try Google.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Neither of those are parts of the stimulus bill. I suggest you do the same.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Calvin Coolidge was a conservative?

You do realize that Coolidge worked for and pushed through the Kellogg–Briand Pact, right? And you do know that treaty legally bound the United States to, "renounce war, as an instrument of national policy in their relations with one another." Does like sound like a conservative to you?

In October 1924, Coolidge stressed tolerance of differences as an American value and thanked immigrants for their contributions to U.S. society, saying that they have "contributed much to making our country what it is." Does like sound like a conservative to you?

Coolidge also stated the United States should assist and help immigrants who come to the country, and urged immigrants to reject "race hatreds" and "prejudices". Which particular brand of conservative are you referring to?

Each of the above stances Coolidge stood for are a firm rejection of everything the conservative movement believes. And just because that Alzheimer riddled conservative lunatic talked about Coolidge doesn't mean he was a conservative, not by today's standards.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Liberals oppose inexpensive food, exercising free political speech, educating our children as we see fit, and wanting bathroom fixtures that work? You'd have to be sniffing glue to actually post that on a public forum, much less believe it.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Oh yeah, I forgot. Conservative are warmongering racists, who can hardly tie their shoes in the morning. You're an idiot. None of those things exclude conservatism.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

But the stimulus bill isn't the topic of discussion, is it? And the fact remains I have clearly shown that Republicans are against infrastructure spending while you have yet to post one source backing up your bullshit assertion.

So what you're trying to say is that the Republicans are for infrastructure spending even though they have repeatedly voted against it? Really? That's the argument you are trying to make?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

No, conservatives are not warmongering racists, at least, not the sane ones.

But this iteration of conservatives is united against pretty much everything that Coolidge said and denying that is beyond the point of absurd.

The fact that you would make the claim that conservatives welcome immigrants to America when the entire Republican platform in this elections seems to be talking about who can build a higher wall, is kind of tough to take. And not to be outdone on the insanity scale, Carly Fiorina is screaming that Planned Parenthood is harvesting infant brains for resale.

I don't hate conservatives nor do I think every single one of them is a moron. I understand that the liberals and conservatives have differing views on how this country should be run and can accept that both philosophies have standing in that discussion. At the same time, when one of the leading candidates is Donald Trump, you really need to look at where your political alignment has gone and ask yourself has it gone too far.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

You like all left wingers refuse to distinguish between immigrants and illegal aliens. Even the dumbest conservative is smarter than you.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

http://www.washingtonexaminer....

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

It's still okay to kill a few thousand kids with Shock and Awe though, right?

I can't believe you cited the Washington Examiner. It's a damn shame that the Weekly World News wasn't still around for people with your level of intellectual prowess to get your talking points from.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

You do understand that in Coolidge's time, we didn't much of an immigration policy, right? In fact, Coolidge actually signed one. You know, except for those damn Chinese once we were finished blowing them up while we were building the western portion of our railway system.

Congratulations on your continued drive to remain ignorant. You've come a long way since you were born knowing nothing. While ignorance is curable, willful ignorance should be a capital offense.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

When the NYTimes covers the video, I'll link it.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

As I recall there was also a video showing ACORN talking to a pimp and a hooker. You just love being lied to, don't you?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

You're the one picking and choosing. History regards Coolidge as a conservative, but of course if you admitted it then you'd lose the argument at the top of the discussion.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Yeah, but that was an O'keefe video. Different group. Of course it led to defunding of ACORN, so it certainly had an element of truth.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

History regards Coolidge as a conservative

Ah, I see. Your entire argument can be reduced to claiming that the conservatives of the 1920s are politically identical to the conservatives today. And even being shown that Coolidge believed in welcoming immigrants as well as creating large scale infrastructure projects to alleviate unemployment, you are still basing your entire argument on a label?

More to the point, feel free to document where Coolidge ever made any distinction between legal immigrants and illegal ones.

And that's where you've lost the battle. You seem to think that because someone used the word conservative it must mean what you think it means. History also labels Eisenhower a conservative but not like any conservatives you'd ever vote for. In much the same way, Nixon was a conservative as well. He created the EPA, believed in universal health care, and befriended China.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Of course it led to defunding of ACORN, so it certainly had an element of truth.

Yes, that's it. Even though the video was shown to be a complete fabrication, it led to ACORN being defunded so that means some part of it was true. It couldn't be that the fools who actually believed it allowed the Republicans to do what they had set out to do. No, it has to be that the video had some truth to it.

This is what passes for logic in your mind?

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Complete fabrication? Did you watch the video? You can even watch the unedited version, which does not make ACORN appear any better.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

He cut taxes, balanced the budget, and believed in Original Intent. Those are all foundational principles of conservatism. You're just talking out your ass at this point. We didn't have an Illegal alien problem in the 1920's.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

We didn't have an illegal alien problem in the 1920s because we didn't have any way of tracking them. People came here on ships, got off at the dock and walked away.

And as far as talking out your ass, any time you'd like to provide a list of accomplishments you believe conservative administrations have created, feel free to do so. Since we're on the topic, and we all know it's those pesky Democrats that ruin conservative dreams, why don't you specifically stick to the years when George W. Bush had a Republican controlled congress and had just about anything he wanted passed.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

You actually believe that the video showed anything meaningful? Do you really? I watched it and found it boring.

Here's a heads up for you. ACORN was attacked because they we getting poor people to the polls - and that's the only reason.

But even this kind of manipulation isn't going to save the Republican Party. Texas turns blue in 2020 and it's all over, except for the crying. Once that many electoral college votes go blue, no amount of screwing with elections in Ohio will make a difference. The slide is about to begin in 2016. The country has watched your policies decimate the middle class while making the rich wealthier and the general populace is sick to death of it. You worked for it, you earned it, and you're going to live with it for the rest of your life.

And when a boorish prick like Donald Trump is your go to man, maybe you do need to think about where you're coming from and where you're going.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Got off the dock and walked through Immigration centers.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Really, that's all ACORN was doing? Ken, you are incapable of seeing the reality that's in front of your face. How has the middle class done under the boot heel of Barack Obama and the ACA? http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB...

Re:I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

http://ballotpedia.org/ACORN_a...

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Got off the dock and walked through Immigration centers.

No, got off the ship and walked away. Do you really believe that in the 1920s we had an immigration center located in every port? The fact that you have no real understanding of history might be why you make the bad decisions that you do.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Really, that's all ACORN was doing? Ken, you are incapable of seeing the reality that's in front of your face. How has the middle class done under the boot heel of Barack Obama and the ACA? http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB...

You actually linked to the WSJ as though a Rupert Murdock publication is credible? Christ, if you're to slam the NYT (and deservedly so) why is it that you don't apply the same credibility standards to your own bullshit? Oh, right, because you're a partisan moron. Well, they say GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out) and I want to commend you on proving that point.

By the way, I read the article - er, hit piece - and then went out to find out what happened. Yes, four people were indicted but how many were actually charged? Do you know? Did you bother to see if anyone was charged, tried or convicted?

No? Why am I not surprised.

And as to how the middle class is doing, the answer is terrible.

Let's see,The Bush tax cuts were extended, putting the burden of paying for this country on the Middle Class, labor has been repeatedly attacked (but you probably think what the conservatives have done in North Caroline to the education system is wonderful) and minimum wage, which should now be somewhere around $21.50 if we had kept parity to where it was when I was a kid, is still well below $10.00/hour.

Awesome job Republicans, you have fucked us all up the ass but on the good side, at least the federal government wasn't forced to pay for condoms, resulting in a drop in our deficit spending.

Re:I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Ballotpedia? What's the matter, was Conservapedia not right wing enough for you?

So, what happened? How many people were convicted? How many people went to jail?

And since we're questioning the credibility of sources (which is a good thing) why hasn't Ballotpedia added this update from 2006? Could it be because that the implied wrongdoing they want people like to you believe was invalid? That couldn't be the reason, could it?

Re: I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

You're incoherent. When you're done with your brain dead rant, critically read what you just wrote. What's the frequency, Kenneth?

Re: I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

Let's recap.

I ask you if you took the time to investigate if anyone had been referred for prosecution by the grand jury in that Kansas City ACORN case - and I'm the one who is brain dead? You have been played for a sucker and you probably know it.

Re: I can't help but wonder

[Bartles]

Are you denying the fact that ACORN members have been tried, convicted, and served jail time for voter registration fraud?

Re: I can't help but wonder

[KenDiPietro]

No, I am pointing out that the four who were indicted were released.

And if you want to be pedantic, yes, there were people who were fired from ACORN when they were caught and those people should have gone to jail. The problem I have is with the inference that this was something orchestrated by ACORN's management as opposed to the individuals who were paid to generate the numbers. Now, if you can prove that this was a management policy, you would be rich - because the smear machine would pay you handsomely for that piece of information - but you can't because that never happened - and we both know they looked.

Damn shame too because then you wouldn't come off as some mouth breathing conspiracy theorist.

What is even more telling is that nowhere in your campaign against voter fraud have you mentioned those instances which involved Republicans. Why is that?

I've learned two things about high speed rail

[SensitiveMale]

The first was from "Singles." No one wants it but politicians and construction companies.

The second is the reason why politicians and construction companies want it is because it's a gravy train of taxpayer money and cost overruns.

Re:I've learned two things about high speed rail

[ShanghaiBill]

No one wants it but politicians and construction companies.

This is not true at all. I live in California, and most people I know think it is great idea. It is voter approved. The only people that are opposed to it, are those that can do math, and there aren't many of them left in California.

Re:I've learned two things about high speed rail

[Reziac]

When I lived there (and voted against it) I vaguely recall the cost per projected rider was a piddly $1200 or so. What's it up to now? Or has it achieved "higher math"??

Meanwhile, Southwest Airlines continues to have direct flights for under $100.

Monorail...monorail...monorail...

[Anonymous Coward]

Marge: But Main Street's still all cracked and broken.

Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!

Crowd: [heading outside to the front steps while singing] Monorail... Monorail... Monoraaaaaaaaail! MONORAIL!

Homer: Mono - D'oh!

Hurdles

[Anonymous Coward]

The first hurdle is political lobbying at all levels by the airline companies that want to protect the SF-LA air route, their bread winner router.

The second hurdle are the various city councils along the way that want to maximize the benefits to their cities, instead to the state, in ways that are sometimes "unfathomable".

The technical hurdles... are details in comparison.

Re:Hurdles

[Anonymous Coward]

The first hurdle is political lobbying at all levels by the airline companies that want to protect the SF-LA air route, their bread winner router.

Does it relay IP packets?

Ridiculous claim in summary

[Rei]

New York's 11-mile East Side Access tunnel project is 14 years late and about 2.5x its original budget. If California's 72 miles of tunnels (twin tunnels of 36 miles) go like New York's, that would be over US$160B spent,

This is absurd (and not an argument presented in the article, because the author isn't a moron). You can't just act like all tunnel building costs are the same per mile, they vary by orders of magnitude. The East Side Access project is to go through some of the most valuable, infrastructure-heavy, densely populated real estate in the US and to merge into Grand Central Terminal.

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[Anonymous Coward]

none of that ignores the fact that its over a decade late and over 2X over budget

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[Rei]

Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding. Perhaps they're multiply 68*2,5 and getting $170B and rounding that to $160B? But the cost of the tunnels isn't $68B, that's the cost of the entire project - even things like building the trains are included in that figure. Yet they're acting like purely tunnels are to blame.

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[willworkforbeer]

New York's 11-mile East Side Access tunnel project is 14 years late and about 2.5x its original budget. If California's 72 miles of tunnels (twin tunnels of 36 miles) go like New York's, that would be over US$160B spent,

This is absurd (and not an argument presented in the article, because the author isn't a moron). You can't just act like all tunnel building costs are the same per mile, they vary by orders of magnitude. The East Side Access project is to go through some of the most valuable, infrastructure-heavy, densely populated real estate in the US and to merge into Grand Central Terminal.

OP here. And that's a fairish comment. But I balanced the density issues in the Northeast with the 7X longer California tunnel requirement and the crazy engineering through multiple seismic fault zones noted prominently in the article, then I added "IF".

I am kind of a moron though. I was just glad it did not start out with, "Noted Karma Whore and Unemployable Comic willworkforbeer writes:"

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[Bartles]

Show me a tunnel project that finished ahead of schedule and under budget. For that matter show me a tunnel project that finished on time, and met it's budget. It's absurd to think this tunnel will be different than every tunnel ever built in human history.

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[Anonymous Coward]

most of them built not in the USA

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[ShanghaiBill]

This is absurd

Nope. Three times over budget is typical for public works projects. It is how the game is played. The numbers are intentionally lowballed to get the project approved. The politicians play along because these boondoggles are always popular in the beginning. Once the schedules start to slip, costs start to mount, and public opinion starts to sour, it is too late. There is too much sunk cost to abandon the project, and the politicians that approved it are either no longer in office, or nobody remembers who voted for what anyway. The contractors win, the politicians win, and the taxpayers are left paying the price. Meanwhile everyone thinks the next big project will be different.

A solution for this is to fund these big projects with private investments. Then the government will buy the services that they provide, such as, say, a guaranteed $100 subsidy for each passenger that takes the train from downtown SF to downtown LA. Since this train is projected to cost $500,000 PER SEAT, that would mean a payback after 5000 trips. If no private investors can be found, that should be an obvious indicator that the project cannot be built at the projected cost.

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[willworkforbeer]

Show me a tunnel project that finished ahead of schedule and under budget. For that matter show me a tunnel project that finished on time, and met it's budget. It's absurd to think this tunnel will be different than every tunnel ever built in human history.

Found it! http://www.cbsnews.com/picture...

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[LifesABeach]

There are several overall points that all agree upon. A straight lane is still the shortest cheapest transportation path. Moving freight appears to be the biggest user. In California there are several transportation hubs. Yes, there active fault lines, and active fracking. My first thoughts were of a national freight grid orientation, all underground, including holding and maintenance yards. It is possible to have more than one tunneling machine running at the same time. There exists robotic drones for mining.

The equipment exists, the expertise exists.

H1B types are 10 cents on the dollar; Coolie hats optional. So what ever the projected cost is, divide it by 10.

Re: Ridiculous claim in summary

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Park_Tunnel

$100 million under budget and ahead of schedule.

Clearly not as difficult a project as the ones mentioned here, but it can and does happen.

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[sphealey]

= = = A solution for this is to fund these big projects with private investments. Then the government will buy the services that they provide, such as, say, a guaranteed $100 subsidy for each passenger that takes the train from downtown SF to downtown LA. Since this train is projected to cost $500,000 PER SEAT, that would mean a payback after 5000 trips. If no private investors can be found, that should be an obvious indicator that the project cannot be built at the projected cost.= = =

The history of the Denver metro area E-470 toll road system indicates that this concept doesn't work quite as well in practice as in theory.

sPh

Re: Ridiculous claim in summary

[Applehu Akbar]

Here's another one, in the heart of Europe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[serviscope_minor]

cross rail is on time and on budget so far, with the most tricky work completed. That involved some serious guru level tunneling, needing to thread the tunnel between two existing ones with less than one meter of clearance.

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[willworkforbeer]

Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding. Perhaps they're multiply 68*2,5 and getting $170B and rounding that to $160B? But the cost of the tunnels isn't $68B, that's the cost of the entire project - even things like building the trains are included in that figure. Yet they're acting like purely tunnels are to blame.

Well, I did think it through before just hitting the button. I figured the trains and rails and wiring types of costs, the hardware, are fairly fixed no matter what. The "slippage" in the budget, the wider variables and likely budget killers, are tunnel-related issues... EPA federal, EPA State (I've heard they're pushovers in CA) other regulatory setbacks, other agency bureaucracies, local water authorities, extended borrowing costs that compound, and the seismic funhouse layer cake they're facing and have not even fully mapped yet. Almost all I could imagine struck me as determined by potential tunnel-centric, both technical and related to land use).

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[shilly]

CrossRail is an extraordinary engineering feat.
http://www.crossrail.co.uk/new...

That said, it arguably should not have been built and the money should have been spent in the North instead:
http://www.theguardian.com/new...

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[xaxa]

That said, it arguably should not have been built and the money should have been spent in the North instead:
http://www.theguardian.com/new...

That's the problem with the UK: north vs south.

If both projects make economic sense, build both! Crossrail 2 is being planned at the moment. Crossrail 3 is an idea.

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[dave420]

Other countries seem to manage it, so if there are inherent problems with public works, it seems an American problem and not one intrinsic to all public works.

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[shilly]

Well, the problem with building both is better than only building CrossRail 2, but building only in the north would be better still, as it would start to deal with London's overweening weight. I say this as a Londoner!

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[Anonymous Coward]

The Gotthard Base Tunnel (consisitng of two parallel 57 km tunnels), is 1 year ahead of schedule.

Philipp

Re: Ridiculous claim in summary

[Bartles]

Maybe it met the current and latest budget estimate. But it certainly didn't meet the original cost estimate. 8 billion francs versus 12 billion francs.

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[xaxa]

I don't think hurting London would help anyone. Huge numbers of people are attracted to London, and some then move out and bring skills to the rest of the UK. London is one of the best cities in the world for this.

Start suggesting Leeds instead, and you're competing with every average city of similar size in Europe, and Leeds doesn't stand out.

(I'm an ex-Londoner, and a recent ex-resident of the UK. Most people I meet ask where I'm from, none are interested in the midlands [where I was born], most think London is an attractive place.)

Re:Ridiculous claim in summary

[shilly]

Actively hurting London is not what I'm suggesting. But investing the marginal pound outside London is definitely what I'm suggesting. There's nothing inevitable about the midlands or north being relatively uninteresting: it's entirely unsurprising after decades of dramatically lower levels of investment cf London. It's not true in Germany (famously). It's not even true in Italy, where the north-south divide is now less sharp than in England.

America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[Hadlock]

Fucking build it. We excel at building giant projects. This is an infrastructure project that will pay off in spades over the next 200 years. It's not like the zombie apocalypse is going to come through and wipe out 2/3rds the population of California every 25 years. Long term this is absolutely needed. Just cough up the dough and move forward with it. Dig those tunnels, lay that track.
 
Big projects need big vision, and if we don't have that kind of vision in America anymore, I don't want to live here anymore, we're just any other country.
 
P.S. Even Morocco has high speed rail now. Let's try and keep up with Northern Africa perhaps? "Oh it's such a big project we can't handle that". Well fucking fire that guy let's put someone in place that actually believes they can do their own damn job. You don't hire a guy who's afraid of heights to do your balancing wire act at the circus.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[Anonymous Coward]

It's straightforward to build rails for high speed in an earthquake zone. The problem is what to do after there are earthquakes. How often do you need to inspect the rails before running high speed trains on them? And how much of taxpayer cash pays for the entire project, including the inspections?

I'd say let this project be built by a private corporation, that will collect 100% of the fares. But they also have to pay 100% of the costs, including buying the rights to run the rails and tunnels, and no protection from liability when the train runs off the rails and kills occupants or people near the rails.

Problem solved.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[Hadlock]

High speed rail is built to such exacting standards, it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to throw some LIDAR down by the wheels and flag anything that throws up a yellow flag for repairs. If they're not doing that already. Generally in Japan after an earthquake they will run the trains at reduced capacity, only 50-70% advertised speeds while repairs are made. As Mitch Hedberg famously said, "we apologize, your escalators are temporarily stairs"; high speed rail can still run at regular speeds without issue. Heck, if you're willing to slow down to 5mph you can run a train over some pretty gnarly looking rails that aren't particularly flat, and then speed back up once past.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[CQDX]

If they wanted to have a chance for this to work, and to have some reasonable number of passengers, they should have built it along the coast along the Coast Sub route connecting LA, Simi Valley, Oxnard, Ventura, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, up to Monterrey and into San Jose. There is splits to SF and Sacramento. There are already tracks there that used to be the main passenger route when trains were king. Today there is little freight or passenger traffic north of Santa Barbara. There are fewer and shorter tunnels so the work is probably orders of magnitude easier.

Additionally CA should be upgrading the Hwy 5 corridor in the SJ valley. It's two lanes each way but with the amount of commercial traffic it should be 4.

Finally, spending money on expanding the reservoir system should be the top priority. Often times we get a decent amount of rain but it just runs off into the ocean. Are main reserve is the snow pack in the Sierras but if global warming is true, there is going to be less and less each year.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[raxx7]

Nowadays, tracks are usually inspected with track inspection vehicles, which are fitted with a number of sensors and can inspect tracks at speeds of up to 50 km per hour (last time I checked).
High speed rail tracks may be inspected several times per week, during the night.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[r-diddly]

Shoot, if I had known about this I wouldn't have spent my last mod point elsewhere. I like the "dream big" gumption. Although seemingly in contradiction, I also like the fact that it's not really a dream anymore. High-speed rail is an existing technology deployed elsewhere to great success (i.e. at this point, "just good ol' ordinary plain old high speed rail"), and not some idea pulled out of Elon Musk's ass like the Hyperloop, which really is still a dream. Hyperloop could still happen mind you, but high-speed rail has actually been demonstrated in Japan, China, Europe and even little bits of the US Northeast Corridor.

Something else - people who complain about the up-front expense are totally ignoring the huge expenses being racked-up right now -- the costs of keeping all those private automobiles on the road, keeping said road paved, policed etc. Or the costs of time & energy involved in air travel, including the waiting around like a dunce and including the energy costs of needless acquisition of vertical altitude... I mean whose destination is at 30,000 feet? Nobody; you go to 30,000 feet because that's where planes fly, and then you come back down to the ground, where you're headed.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[CQDX]

HSR won't get rid of the car problem because once you get to your terminus you'll still need a car to get around. San Francisco and Los Angeles metropolises are very large and destinations within each can take well over an hour to reach by car without traffic. Public transit is even worse with non-direct routes and frequent stops. BTW, commercial jets fly at 30,000 feet because that is where they are most fuel efficient even accounting for the extra burn to get at altitude.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[Anonymous Coward]

Put Trump on it

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[Anonymous Coward]

So your argument is that we should jump off a cliff because everybody else is doing it? Do you balance your own checkbook? Do you even know what a checkbook is? I swear, you liberals have rocks for brains when it comes to economics or money.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[xaxa]

The UK inspects tracks at 200km/h: http://www.railwaygazette.com/...

This is done during the day (and the night) -- the high speed means it can fit in-between scheduled services without causing delays. Tracks are inspected either every 7 or 14 days, depending on the route.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[dave420]

There is a British train that inspects at ~200km/h, and a French one that inspects at ~100km/h.

Re:America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[AmiMoJo]

The inspection schedule in Japan is actually pretty aggressive. All track is inspected every three days, or after any kind of major event like an earthquake. The trains are inspected at the end of every run, and in more detail every day, and get raised up off the bogies every 36 hours for more detailed checks.

They have never had a fatal accident, and punctuality is insane. The drivers aim to arrive at the exact scheduled second and will make up a delay of just 1 or 2 seconds with slightly increased speeds where possible.

Re: America: Not allowed to dream big anymore

[Anonymous Coward]

Who do you think pays for the roads, dumbass?

from the 'TGV' french experience these last 20 y..

[Anonymous Coward]

... I can state two things:
- it's buying the land that shifts the schedule. Definitely true, to the extent the south-east is not covered by our 'bullet-trains' 20 years after going operational elsewhere (TGV is for 'hi-speed-train' in french, over 300Km/h)
- when the rails are done, then, it's over for train/airplane competition. Definitely. 90% of the air traffic switches to rail.
Even when the rail stations are not close to cities.
When adding every delay, car/parking/x-ray/plane and the same at the other hand, generally the bullet train is at least as fast, and way less of a bother (no X-ray, you can take metallic objects, load your computer, walk and get decent coffee in a decent train bar...)
So, to me it's a matter of patience but the switch is unavoidable. The only thing is, for people in their fifties like me, one has to be aware this in some places is just an investment for our children, not for us.

Final bill

[YrWrstNtmr]

Initial estimate - $68 billion and completed by 2022
Final bill - $250 billion, and completed by 2045.

Or, never...But they will spend that $250B.

Re:Final bill

[Lead Butthead]

Initial estimate - $68 billion and completed by 2022
Final bill - $250 billion, and completed by 2045.

Or, never...But they will spend that $250B.

If eastern span of SF Bay bridge is any indication,
they'll just press it into service anyways and make continuous "safety improvements" at additional cost.

Re:Final bill

[KenDiPietro]

Using your logic, we should never do anything. What the hell, if might not come out perfect or on budget - so we shouldn't do it. And it's not like this project would create good paying jobs or that those people would be paying into our tax coffers, no, none of that makes any difference.

And while you whine about a 35 miles project, the Chinese are looking at building a similar one to connect Chine with the North American mainland. This project will have almost 9,000 miles of high speed track of which more than 100 miles would be a tunnel under the Bering Straights.

Christ, if we had listened to people like you throughout history, we'd still be living in caves. Get a grip.

Re:Final bill

[russotto]

And while you whine about a 35 miles project, the Chinese are looking at building a similar one to connect Chine with the North American mainland. This project will have almost 9,000 miles of high speed track of which more than 100 miles would be a tunnel under the Bering Straights.

No environmental impact statements, no lawsuits from every NIMBY group along the way, no union problems, no Federal Railroad Administration applying 100-year-old rules, and no worry about worker safety. Relaxing the constraints make things much easier.

Of course this tunnel will never be built because the US isn't about to allow it (and it's a dumb idea anyway)

Re:Final bill

[amiga3D]

The problem is that a lot of people have no faith in the state to perform this project. That's because they have a track record of graft and corruption when running these big money projects. Unfortunately nowadays no one is held responsible when government projects run 5 to 10 times over budget. Given a solution where there are actual consequences for incompetence, graft and corruption I think the support for this kind of project would increase by a large amount.

Re:Final bill

[CrimsonAvenger]

Using your logic, we should never do anything.

Using his logic, we'd get HONEST estimates of time and budget before deciding to do things. Then we'd make our decisions.

As opposed to faking up a budget/time estimate that will be palatable to the voters even though pure fantasy otherwise, then letting every session of the legislature between the first vote and completion have a veto over the whole project (but not over the money already spent)....

Re:Final bill

[Anonymous Coward]

if only we had technology to fly people over the mountains and save all that money,,, oh wait

Re:Final bill

[YrWrstNtmr]

No, I'm just saying once you get ALL the other players into the mix....EPA, NIMBYs, multiple jurisdictions....it will be FAR more expensive and WAY late.

In my local area, we recently cranked up 'light rail'. Of course, making that light rail actually go across city lines to where it needs to go is a major clusterfuck. Why? Because it is a different 'city'. Norfolk VA + Virginia Beach. A major east cost resort destination. But that doesn't matter...it's a different city, so we need a whole new series of impact studies and city funding.
Designing and funding the thing from downtown to the beach from the start would have been an obvious way to build it. But no....Downtown to 1/2way to the beach. Because....fuck you, gimme my kickback.

Re:Final bill

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Some eastern sea ports are trying to deepen themselves by 5 feet or so to accomodate "Superpanamax" ships, the next size up that the Panama Canal expansion can handle.

The environmental impact lawsuits have caused this dredging to take longer than the original Panama Canal took to build.

Meanwhile China is building an even bigger canal nearby for even bigger ships. It looks like the center of empire has shifted again to the new economic powerhouse who is intent on keeping the trade routes open, while the old turns to the opposite, hampering trade and lording over its own people as it consumes the dying remnants of its own trade capability.

Re:Final bill

[KenDiPietro]

Indeed.

And China is an almost unfathomably polluted shithole while we Americans would prefer to not live in a cancer inducing dump.

Should I have said most American?

Re:Final bill

[Rakarra]

Using your logic, we should never do anything. What the hell, if might not come out perfect or on budget - so we shouldn't do it. And it's not like this project would create good paying jobs or that those people would be paying into our tax coffers, no, none of that makes any difference.

What annoys the hell out of me is that they were never honest -- the cost value they gave was a fraction of what it would take, because they needed voter approval... and the voters would not have approved if they'd been given valid figures for the project cost and what the project would eventually deliver. "$68b? Well, a bit pricy, but if we can get a high-speed corridor between Northern and Southern California, then maybe.."

All of this for a train which no one is interested in taking and will be too slow to be accurately called "high speed rail" anymore.
When every project is mismanaged scam to enrich contractors and unions, yes, after awhile voters who foot the bill get sick of the pie-in-the-sky

So the Chinese have a rail system that actually works and that people want to use? Good for them. They have a system of governance that can actually get this sort of thing done. In California, the idea of holding people accountable is anathema. $68b project balloons to $250b, and will be 10+ years behind schedule? Well hell, we'll just have to pour money into it to make it work. The people are too disconnected from the bureaucracy to even be able to hold Caltrans accountable for the disaster that is the SF/Oakland Bay Bridge.

Re:Final bill

[KenDiPietro]

You raise one heck of a compelling argument against state's rights, though I doubt that was your intention.

And if you don't like the way the system works, work to change the system.

What you don't know is that I am almost in complete agreement with you on almost everything you've mentioned except that screaming about progress isn't the way I believe we should be acting.

Re:Final bill

[drinkypoo]

Some eastern sea ports are trying to deepen themselves by 5 feet or so to accomodate "Superpanamax" ships, the next size up that the Panama Canal expansion can handle.

Best of luck with that. Guess what? It's not just el nino. They've been having trouble with water in Panama, due to massive deforestation. Panama is perpetually on fire due to land clearing by the cheapest means possible. You go across the border between Panama and Costa Rica and the difference is dramatic.

Re:Final bill

[russotto]

And China is an almost unfathomably polluted shithole while we Americans would prefer to not live in a cancer inducing dump.

I live in NJ, that ship has sailed so I might as well get the benefits. (same goes for Silicon Valley BTW)

Re:Final bill

[Anonymous Coward]

Using your logic, we should never do anything.

"We" (as in the federal and state governments) should almost never build such megaprojects.

And it's not like this project would create good paying jobs or that those people would be paying into our tax coffers, no, none of that makes any difference.

No, it's not like that. On balance, high speed rail will cost jobs and result in losses to society. What it will do is result in job gains and monetary gains for Democratic donors.

Christ, if we had listened to people like you throughout history, we'd still be living in caves. Get a grip.

Moving out of caves required individual initiative and commerce, not government megaprojects. A better historical analogy for California HSR is the monuments and facilities the aristocracy liked to create for themselves with slave labor, and such efforts hurt rather than advance civilization.

Re:melange

[willworkforbeer]

Anyone who uses the word "melange" is a faggot.

I would have used, "melange" in the submission, if I spoke what my guidance counsellor called "High School Graduate Level English You Moron".
I think I used, "crazy messed up".

Bullet train?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just tell Americans the NRA is supporting it and that the 2nd Amendment guarantees bullet trains to all.

Re:Bullet train?

[Anonymous Coward]

But then it will lose support in California!

Alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like an opportunity for hyperloop!

Time to declassify...

[Type44Q]

Time to declassify those nuclear-powered tunnel-boring machines?

Everything in California is Bigger!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything in California is way over budget and way over time.

But that's not the point.

Follow the money?

On the other hand

[melonman]

The article sounds remarkably like the articles written when the Anglo-French Channel Tunnel project was proposed. Various aspects of the project were allegedly impossible when digging began, including concerns about the nature of the rock under the Channel and that the air in the tunnels would overheat because of the absence of ventilation tunnels under the sea. The project did run over-budget, but it worked, and is still working, and has transformed the way people and freight travel along that route.

Re:On the other hand

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the difference is that the LA times has been at times illogically supportive of the tunnel. Second, even the stat of California's own estimates for various factors such as ridership, private investment dollars, and construction costs have never added up. You don't need to even come up with your own more pessimistic estimates, you can just use their own estimates against them.

Third, if you do a quick price check on a flight from Hethrow to Paris vice train, those critics of the Chunnel were probably right.

Re:On the other hand

[Dereck1701]

"Did run over-budget" is a bit of an understatement, it almost doubled its construction cost estimates (80% over budget). It had to be "restructured" in 1998 to avoid going bankrupt. For most of its history it has ran at a loss and as such has payed off little of its construction costs, unless you count their "debt-for-equity" swap that made them look in better shape on paper without really doing anything to actually "pay" their debts.

Re:On the other hand

[Anonymous Coward]

The Anglo-French Chunnel project was a gigantic ripoff and a gigantic case of crony capitalism. The Chunnel is currently returning $50 million on an investment of $21 billion; that's absolutely pathetic. The only reason it can do that is because much of the debt taken on during construction was forgiven, otherwise the Chunnel would be a massive money loser.

Re:On the other hand

[melonman]

Yes. But the technically impossible problems were solved, and it has transformed the way people travel over that particular route. My daughter now takes a train from the South of France to London, non-stop, in only slightly more time (city centre to city centre including check-in) than it would take by plane. And tunnels last for quite a long time, so it makes sense to take the long-term view.

Re:from the 'TGV' french experience these last 20

[r-diddly]

J'aime bien les Trains de Grand Vitesse!

so much for $10billion

[Anonymous Coward]

And I voted against it then, too

Compare to the Cost of Highway Projects

[McGruber]

Here in Atlanta, we are spending $1.1 Billion on widening just one highway interchange: Contractors vying to build $1.1 billion Ga. 400/I-285 interchange

IMHO, that makes the $68 billion California is spending seem like a bargain since they'll be getting 36 miles of tunnels, plus "300 miles of track, dozens of bridges or viaducts, high-voltage electrical systems, a maintenance plant and as many as six stations".

Re:Compare to the Cost of Highway Projects

[willworkforbeer]

Here in Atlanta, we are spending $1.1 Billion on widening just one highway interchange".

And we no longer have a Captain Herb to report on its full-glacier-speed progress.

Failure of nerve

[Applehu Akbar]

Years ago, BART in San Francisco was able to tunnel through the same tectonic plate boundary - underwater. A century ago, Switzerland built high tunnels through the Alps like the ones being contemplated here to connect Germany, France and Italy. But because those tunnels required trains to spiral up into the mountains to reach one end and then spiral down from from the other end of the tunnel, It is now driving a series of straight "base tunnels" underneath the entire range. These will allow bullet trains to rip through as though the Alps didn't exist.

Re:Failure of nerve

[CQDX]

If you are talking about the BART tunnels that span the Bay, they aren't underground. They are tubes that lay on the sea floor. If you seach Google you can see pictures of the tube sections being assembled at the water's edge.

Re:Failure of nerve

[Applehu Akbar]

It's still a tunnel at the bottom of a bay crossing a tectonic boundary. That takes the kind of engineering chutzpah that Californians - even Democrats - used to be capable of.

Re:Failure of nerve

[Anonymous Coward]

do they have earthquakes in the Alps like they do in California?

Re:Failure of nerve

[Anonymous Coward]

It's still a tunnel at the bottom of a bay crossing a tectonic boundary. That takes the kind of engineering chutzpah that Californians - even Democrats - used to be capable of.

Wasn't Ronald Reagan governor of California when BART was built?

Re:Failure of nerve

[MikeKD]

It's still a tunnel at the bottom of a bay crossing a tectonic boundary. That takes the kind of engineering chutzpah that Californians - even Democrats - used to be capable of.

You're still wrong:

McArthur noted that the Transbay Tube was designed from the beginning with seismic safety as a priority because, while the tube does not run directly over any fault lines, all of the Bay Area is earthquake country,

Re:Failure of nerve

[Applehu Akbar]

Your link describes a reinforcement project in the tunnel undertaken because it crosses a tectonic plate boundary underwater. In what way do you think it is not doing this?

For that budget

[Anonymous Coward]

you could run a hyperloop around the entire US touching every major city, have money to spare, and be producing MW of spare electricity to boot from it.

LA to NY in 3 hours for a $50 ticket....

Re:from the 'TGV' french experience these last 20

[Applehu Akbar]

Moi aussi. Et les trains à grand vitesse japonaises!

Please Ignore This Post

[Anonymous Coward]

bb9e 57ad 9a15 1572
29c4 3f33 054e 9ec1
7e44 fc9c 49d8 884f
4ff9 74db eab9 57f5
a9c7 7e5b 5af8 e612
c760 9f6d 392d f1bf
bff2 703f b575 5bf1
// Capcha, always being relevant: decipher

The rare subtle Godwin.

[Brannon]

nt

Re:The rare subtle Godwin.

[fnj]

Ah, the all-too-common Godwin-baiter who sees Godwin everywhere. The poster you are replying to is very likely talking about FDR. "Almost every community in the United States had a new park, bridge or school constructed by [FDR's WPA]". The WPA provided paid jobs for 3 million unemployed at its peak. Most of the facilities constructed are still in use.

Or he might have been talking about the magnificent Moscow Metro, and the USSR's collossal program of dam and railway building. There is no tie-in to the feared N-word or H-word there either.

Spend $ on projects for which there's a demand

[Anonymous Coward]

If the government wants to support public transportation, I wish they'd spend money on projects for which there's a demand.

For example in the SF Bay area, a public transit train system is BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit). One problem with BART is a lack of parking spots at its stations. I wish the government would spend a few million dollars to build a multi-story parking lot at the BART stations where there is a shortage of parking spots. That would definitely get more people out of their cars.

Only the beginning

[Dereck1701]

The cost overruns they're noting here are almost certainly just the tip of the iceberg. It was originally only said to cost around $34 Billion, they've barely gotten started and its already ballooned to at least in the neighborhood of $70 Billion but even the Authority admits it "may" go up to almost $120 Billion suggesting it will probably hit that and quite possibly go even higher. Even at the ~$70 billion number it is almost double the cost per KM as similar European systems. At the same time the anticipated ticket prices will be below that of world counterparts (20%), specifically set to try to attract airline passengers. And even at that rate its not expected to compete very well with car/truck transportation costs.

Re:Only the beginning

[_Sharp'r_]

It would be cheaper just to setup a few new dedicated "local" airports and provide free flights to anyone who wanted one than it will be to build this train system.

This is America

[Ol Olsoc]

We can't do things any more.

Re: This is America

[Anonymous Coward]

Well duh, you needed chinese to build the railways 150 years ago what makes you think you could do it by yourselves now?

Re: This is America

[PPH]

Mexicans.

So, how do we solve this dilemma?

[fustakrakich]

Big giant massive nuclear powered autonomous self repairing tunnel boring machines with on board smelters to extract the minerals would work perfectly. We should have had these things 10 years ago. It's the 21st Century for Chrissake! Let's stop living in the 19th...

thought this was murica

[Anonymous Coward]

#1 in anything the greatiest nation on earth and can do spirit surely you can do a little railroad?

California is not truly one state

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in CA too, and have yet to meet anybody who will admit to supporting this gravy train of pork slop.

The people in CA who live in the biggest handful of cities are generally very far to the left (as are the citizens of most Democrat-run mega-cities) the people in the smaller cities and rural areas tend to be to the right of center. The State USED to be "up for grabs" in elections with either party able to win it, but after the 1986 Amnesty the combination of the huge uptick in legalized Hispanic immigrants and the huge wave of children they've had since, most of whom vote Democrat have made the state permanently Democrat (and thus created the illusion that the state is one massive unified far-left state). Oh, and the election of Ahhnold to run Kahleefornia was a fluke - he was a celeb and pretty far left within the GOP (a member of the Kennedy family at that time).

This train was put to a vote in CA under false premises; the voters were promised 4 things that were all false:

1. It would cost $33 Billion. Critics said it would cost more and were branded "liars" in the press out here which is entirely Democrat-run.

2. The federal government would foot much of the bill. It will not, but this was at the time of the Obama Trillion dollar stimulus bill when many people seemed to think the skies had opened and it was raining free money.

3. It would link the entire state. It will not. The train will not even link the major cities of SF, Sacramento, LA, and San Diego in the foreseeable future.

4. It would be "high speed". It will not. They are building the rails for the type of trains they are buying and the trains they are buying are just moderately-fast (slower than many cars).

If CA really wanted affordable high-speed mass transit, it could go with Musk's Hyperloop which would be VASTLY superior to the pork Moonbeam Brown is building. CA will NOT build Hyperloop because it would operate without the need for a big unionized labor force (vital Democrat constituency group), and would cost a lot less to build (which has less opportunity for fraud and kickbacks.

Re:California is not truly one state

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe if you actually went out of your basement you would meet someone.

*mod* Retarded

[Anonymous Coward]

The only way a person can come to the conclusion that lies are good and we need more of them is by severe retardation. Yes, lies are inherently wrong. Even if someone claims that the lie will benefit more than just themselves. Trusting someone you know to be a liar is an idiots task..

A Stupefying price tag...

[TaleSpinner]

...for a train that no one will ever ride in numbers significant enough to justify it at 1/100 the cost.

You know what cost $425 billion?

[istartedi]

According to wiki the entire Interstate system (in 2006 dollars).

If you vote me for governor, I promise to defund the rail, subject to any necessary propositions and/or legislative action. Furthermore, I will use the funds currently set aside for high speed rail to do two things:

1. Eliminate grade crossings at existing rail lines, starting with Caltrain from San Francisco to San Jose, or alternatively starting with those crossings that have killed the most people if the aforementioned route isn't actually the most deadly.

2. If there's sufficient money left over after that, I will establish the SF-LA Autobahn program which will entail building a limited access highway that parallels portions of US 101 and Interstate 5. The program will be partially funded with a special licensing and inspection program, which will permit drives who are willing to pay increased fees to travel at a minimum speed of 80 mph in the right lane, and maximum speed of 200 mph in the passing lane. Autobahn-like lane discipline rules will be strictly enforced.

Re:You know what cost $425 billion?

[Applehu Akbar]

"minimum speed of 80 mph in the right lane, and maximum speed of 200 mph in the passing lane. "

A car that is safe to drive at 200 mph is called a 'train'.

Re:You know what cost $425 billion?

[dave420]

You'd also have to vastly improve the driver training and qualification system. There's a reason speeds like that are possible in Germany - German drivers have to pass a very rigorous test to use them. You'd also have to vastly increase the amount of spending on infrastructure, as US highways are simply not rated for high speed. You'd end up with rich twats launching themselves into buildings and off embankments, which might or might not be a good thing, but the clean-up and collateral damage would cost society dearly.

California voters IQ 0

[Anonymous Coward]

There is so much brain drain in California. A majority of California voters have absolutely no understanding of finance and economics. They keep voting and approving these type of measures. They vote in endless bond measures not realizing they are appeals to borrow money to finance borrowed money. When a minority in California opposed this measure back when the cost was around 33 billion a majority of California voters shot them down. Then the costs goes up to an estimated 68 billion. You could hear crickets chirping. More than likely the costs will double that amount.

Hyperloop anyone?

[Twinbee]

Elon Musk's Hyperloop is a far better idea for so many reasons, and far cheaper.

Scrap this train and build that instead.

Re:Hyperloop anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hyperloop doesn't exist yet. Bullet trains do and work around the world.

He is a guy that sells cars coming up with an idea to help criticize public transportation iniciatives. When hyperloop becomes a reality, build it. Just to put it in the way of public transportation.

Re:Hyperloop anyone?

[tompaulco]

Elon Musk's Hyperloop is a far better idea for so many reasons, and far cheaper. Scrap this train and build that instead.

If you ignore land acquisition costs, costs of proving the unproven technology, which may actually find that it can't possibly work, and other associated costs. It would probably be too expensive to even let Musk finance it himself, because when it fails the government will have to either sped huge amounts of money to finish it or demolish it.

Florida rejects high-speed rail funds!

[nicoleb_x]

"Florida Gov. Rick Scott joined three other Republican governors in rejecting Obama administration funds for rail projects, saying a planned high- speed line in his state could saddle taxpayers with $3 billion in added expenses." Yeah, nobody could have predicted this.

Legal authority?

[myid]

If the voters voted to spend a certain amount of money for the bullet train, and if the actual cost is way more, and if the trains will be slower than a bullet train, then does CA have the legal authority to go ahead with the project?

The voters voted for X, and the state is doing Y. Seems to me that the state wouldn't have the authority to do Y, only to do X.

Re:Legal authority?

[Gavagai80]

The original ballot measure was only $10 billion in seed money and not intended to fund the entire project. And it was not written with any sort of termination clause.

Hyperloop... Need I saw more?

[wheeda]

Hyperloop has some advantages here.

1. Large ranges can be approached on a parallel and slowly elevate over instead of drilling.

2. Hyper loop tubes could have more seismic give, similar to oil pipelines in permafrost, than train track.

3. Now that we hav realistic price assessment (more anyway), we can get on our way to having a real comparison with hyperloop.

It's Dead Jim

[Anonymous Coward]

With the dying breath from Governor Jerry Moonbeam Brown after been hit and run-over by used-car piloted by a woman complaining of vagina spasms and legally DUI, Moonbeam dies on site with his guts splattered by automobile ties. An ignominious ending of one of California's most hated of celebrities a few meters from a illegal California brothel.

Ha ha

Call the Chinese

[Anonymous Coward]

They started in 2007 and have the largest high-speed network in the world (High-speed rail in China). It's sad that America is getting so far behind in the balls department.

Libs and their Choo-Choos, I don't get it.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand the allure of High density and the being under the control of big government. Humans are not meant to live in the proximity and densities that is the current effort.

Re:Libs and their Choo-Choos, I don't get it.

[Ryanrule]

false. rural is dying. small towns are dead. burbs are dying. all this is good.

$20 billion would do

[Anonymous Coward]

No. LA area has ~19 million people. SF area has ~7.5 million people. If the cost per mile were around ~$50 million per mile, or less, HSR in California would be a decent deal. At this point, it is going to cost more than $130 million per mile, or more, very expensive.

Dear Americans

[rainer_d]

If you didn't know: Your infrastructure crumbles. Most of is is from the 30s, some was built in the 50s and 60s and that's it. The rest is sometimes a hundred years old or even older. Because you don't want to fund it with higher taxes, that's not going to change.
Public projects like these are going to have cost overruns. The Swiss NEAT (Trans-Alp-Tunnel) is about 65% over budget right now.
You can't have a State, a Country without investing in its infrastructure.
In another decade or two, you'll be just another emerging nation, but with nukes.
You're just proving you're nation as such is not a sustainable model.

Yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

WE? I am a Texan, not a Californian. I think both of our states are bad at building giant projects. Be realistic.

Misplaced transportation priorities

[JonnyO]

I can't help but wonder how much better the ROI would be if this money was put towards California's urban transportation problems rather than fighting congestion on rural patches of the I-5. Even the infamous MUNI could accomplish wonders with it.

They don't always come if you build it

[PeterM from Berkeley]

In New Mexico, the Rail Runner connects Santa Fe and Albuquerque, and some other smaller cities.

After 9 years, ridership doesn't pay for operating costs, not even 1/10th of the operating costs, let alone pay for the cost of the capital invested. Add the cost of capital and fares pay only 1/20th of the cost.

California had better think not once, not twice, but ten times about the economic case for their bullet train--if it is as much of a flop as New Mexico's Rail Runner, it'll blow a huge hole in the state's budget.

--PM

Re:They don't always come if you build it

[xaxa]

I found the schedule: http://riometro.org/rio-metro-...

That's a joke of a service. Fewer than one train an hour and a huge gap during the day — I'm not surprised hardly anyone uses it. The top speed is 79mph, so presumably (including stops) it's slower or similar to driving. Europeans wouldn't use a service like this, and I think we're often used as a comparison for projects like this.

If they want people to use it, make it at least every 30 minutes (preferably 20), throughout the day. Then you don't need to worry about missing a train, and aren't stuck if plans change.

Re:They don't always come if you build it

[Coren22]

Look at the cities it is connecting. You connected Albuquerque, a city a bit over 550k with Santa Fe, the capital, with a population of 70k. How many people concievably would ride that train? I can see in the winter riding the train to go to the ski slopes in Santa Fe and Sandia, but what other point is there? I remember that drive, and it never seemed to be that bad. It seems like the rail line was built just for something to do, and when the Santa Fe railroad is already so popular, why bother?

Building an inexpensive HSR

[Anonymous Coward]

The most inexpensive way to build this HSR is to just run it right down I-5 with two stations, one in SF and the other in LA. No tunnels, no costly land purchases. Could probably knock it out in a couple of years.

But where would the I-5 traffic go? Who cares... Why does every American city need to be connected by highway?

Re:from the 'TGV' french experience these last 20

[Anonymous Coward]

Mi gusta questo:

http://www.valencia-tourist-guide.com/en/transport/high-speed-train-valencia-to-madrid.html

After you've taken a few trains like this, the people arguing against them on this page sound like the most pathetic luddites that it's possible to imagine.

Meanwhile, in Japan...

[Anonymous Coward]

The new maglev bullet train in Japan will be partially operational (Toyko-Nagoya) by 2027, after starting construction late last year. Around 86% will be underground. Cost of that section will be about $50 billion, all financed privately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%AB%C5%8D_Shinkansen

So how come Japan can do project like this, but America can't?

Meanwhile back in 1968

[dbIII]

The Japanese got it to work but they connected larger population centres than Santa Fe and Albuquerque - just as the Californians are going to do.
It is a bit annoying that the last time a train did 100MpH near where I live was a century ago - on steam FFS.

$160B = less than 6 months of the Iraq War

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like a better deal to me.

Re:melange

[shilly]

Quite a lot of people who use the word "faggot" as an insult are really really scared to admit to themselves that they are turned on by the idea of having sex with men. The homophobia is a cover for their fear and anger.

Simple

[Ryanrule]

Hold the contractors to the price, legally. If they go over, it comes out of their pocket. If they go late, fine the board and the c-suite 1% of the total project per day. Require the c suite and board to stay on the entire time the project is run, or they are jailed.

It's not cost effective

[tompaulco]

The biggest hurdle is that it is not cost effective. It will cost too much to use, and yet still won't pay for itself. We had a similar problem with streetcars in Okahoma City in the early 1900s. When buses came around, they were far cheaper, more maneuverable and could go places that streetcars couldn't, so they were replaced with buses. Now, OKC has the bright idea to raise taxes to create a streetcar system. Hello! History! Read it!.

Re:It's not cost effective

[GingaFlash]

The reason street cars went out of business is because they were bought up by big oil at the time who then jacked up the prices, they were "replaced" with buses because buses use oil. Street cars were essentially run out of town by big oil because they were a threat to the growing oil industry and the need for everyone in America to own a personal car.

I'm curious

[ajzimm3rman]

How much would it cost to add a couple lanes to both I5 and 99?

Worthless project

[therealbev]

Even if there were NO graft this would be an absolutely useless project. There are so many better ways that the money could be spent that the only possible reason for its existence has to be bribery and corruption. So much for Jesuit training...

Water?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, build some dams, desal plants, etc etc etc? Nope. We'll spend 68 billion on a classic white elephant. Seriously for a fraction of that you could fund a dozen LFTR / molten salt reactors, decomm the old dangerous ones built on fault lines, use the off peak excess to desal & pump water when and where you need it ....

BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
(John Belushi voice ^^^)

so, basically....

[Anonymous Coward]

you had nothing to contribute, you just did not like that post.

got it

Get Rid of Cali

[Anonymous Coward]

A money grab corrupt boondogle -- from a State that diverts all of its gas taxes into the general fund and never has anything to fix roads badly made by shady contractors. California needs to disassembled and replaced with 4 or 5 separate new States. (Los Angeles, San Diego, Big Valley, The Sierras and Pacifica.)

It's provable that a government is not required.

[GPS Pilot]

a government is required to divert funds towards projects that the private sector would not have built.

Just one problem with your argument. There are hundreds of historical examples of the private sector building railroads. In fact, the private sector was so eager to build railroads that the network was overbuilt; it exceeded demand and a significant fraction of the privately-built railroads entered bankruptcy.

We need to achieve the proper balance between a 19th-century free-for-all, and the current regulatory environment that kills any private initiatives into more modern forms of transportation. When that's accomplished, any route capable of profitable operation would be built. And any route not capable of profitable operation, of course, should not be built.

Re:It's provable that a government is not required

[Harlequin80]

I disagree with the premise of your argument. Just because something is unprofitable does not mean that it should not be built. Also the corollary to that is just because something is profitable doesn't mean it should be built.

For example, a sea wall will never be profitable to the builder. It may or may not prevent property damage in the future but the builder of that sea wall will never ever see those returns. There is no realistic possibility of collecting the funds from the nearby residents, because you are asking them to fund a multi-generational asset which they would only see partial returns on.

Rail is another example. Rail is something that should be considered as part of a wider transport network. If I build rail here, will it reduce load on a road network there? If it does what are the overall economic benefits of that piece of infrastructure? Does that economic benefit exceed the cost of the railway? Note that this is significantly different from "is this railway line profitable?". In fact there are many many many economic arguments for building transport networks that are loss leaders.

If you want to have a look at a non transport equivalent, consider Android the OS. Google develops Android and releases it open source to the market. Loads and loads and loads of people have built devices based on something google did, and not paid a cent to Google. Now Google makes a bucket load of cash from the play store but the actual Android OS is a total cost centre. Google has decided that building Android is better for their wider economy than not building it, despite it not directly making them money. Think about rail the same way, if I build a rail line, does my wider economy benefit?

The market that allowed the rail barons to exist, no longer exists. Land was cheap, labour was cheap, and there was a captive market. Also most of those projects were given government support in some way, be it low interest loans or land grants.

Re: It's provable that a government is not require

[saloomy]

Bullshit. If the sea wall prevents the destruction of property at any occurance which costs more than the sea wall, then it was a profitable endeavor to build it. ROI is calculated by how long it takes to save its own worth in propert that would have otherwise been damaged or destroyed. Profit in the economic sense means you are better off for having done it, not the accounting sense of hard dollars flowing into your pockets.

Re: It's provable that a government is not require

[Harlequin80]

But the builder of the sea wall will never see those profits. Because the profits are spread across the wider community, unless it is built by the government. There will never be a private entity that will build that sea wall.

Re:It's provable that a government is not required

[GPS Pilot]

Just because something is unprofitable does not mean that it should not be built.

Yes, in most cases, that's exactly what it means. If it's unprofitable, it will have to be subsidized. The perfect example for the subject at hand is Amtrak. The "overall economic benefits" are miniscule compared to the billions in subsidies Amtrak has blown through. Here's just one of many examples of how it's mismanaged:
http://www.the-american-intere...

Why was Amtrak created in the first place? Purely as a pander to two very special interest groups:
1) Politically-connected railworker unions, and
2) Those who wrung their hands about "it's a crying shame what's happened to our railroads... do something to bring back the good old days!" (Not comprehending that there are reasons travelers voted with their dollars and actions such that passenger rail service became unprofitable.)

Please don't double down on the huge mistake that was Amtrak.

Call the japanese

[jonjavajones]

Just call the Japanese. This entire country (japan), though all the Mountain ranges, and below most cities is a Swiss cheese patchwork of amazing tunnels. They build them on credit in most neighboring countries (i.e. Vietnam and the philipines) and they are glorious feats of engineering. Of course for the question of if high speed rail were a cost effective idea or good idea for California, I have no idea but I'd guess no.

Hurdles

[MagickalMyst]

"The train... faces major hurdles"

This should be good.

Re:melange

[MagickalMyst]

"Anyone who uses the word "melange" is a faggot."

Or French.

Re:melange

[MagickalMyst]

Conversely, many people will also use the word "faggot" as an insult because the thought of having sex with a man is so completely disgusting and revolting that they want apply that derogatory connotation to someone that they don't like.

Re:melange

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who uses the word "melange" is a faggot.

Faggot.

The self-destruction of andymadigan #2/2

[Anonymous Coward]

"uBlock is using 33MB of RAM" - by andymadigan (792996) on Friday June 12, 2015 @10:31PM (#49902053)

Inefficient: Hosts @ 3-11mb w/ current data & does things adblock variants can't & U RAN FROM IT http://apple.slashdot.org/comm... ).

UBlock uses 63++ MB & AdBlock = 128mb++ -> http://www.ghacks.net/2014/06/...

SCREENSHOT -> http://cdn.ghacks.net/wp-conte...

BEST UBlock's done = 38mb/ABP = 64mb -> http://www.extremetech.com/wp-... From http://www.extremetech.com/wp-...

* See 'p.s.' below - Says all (& I didn't do the saying!)

---

"which blocks more ads? Answer: uBlock/Adblock" by andymadigan (792996) on Sunday June 14, 2015 @12:04AM (#49907001)

WRONG - "Almost ALL Ads Blocked"'s PAID NOT TO by default-> http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/...

&

ABP too http://finance.yahoo.com/news/...

UBlock/Adblock = far less efficient on CPU & RAM (added messagepassing, SLOW usermode vs. hosts in kernelmode) & NEITHER does a fraction of what hosts do in more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity.

---

"your system blocks fewer ads" by andymadigan (792996) on Sunday June 14, 2015 @12:04AM (#49907001)

See above: + hosts do MORE w/ less via 1st link above!

---

"I'm more than happy to spend an extra 1% of my computer's power to block far more ads than your shitty idea" by andymadigan (792996) on Sunday June 14, 2015 @12:04AM (#49907001)

You're 'happy' being illogical & stupid?

AdBlock's 4++gb & 100% CPU use inefficiency -> https://blog.mozilla.org/nneth...

+

ClarityRay defeats it & NOT hosts (clarityray BLOCKS addons via native browser methods).

---

YOU started it -> http://apple.slashdot.org/comm... & here too http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

I finished YOU WITH IT all above!

APK

P.S.=> Howard Stark in "Capt. America" - hosts (Cap's Shield) vs. AdBlock & variants (steel):

"It's stronger than steel & 1/3rd the weight"

So

"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" & "eat your words"

... apk

The self-destruction of andymadigan #1/2

[Anonymous Coward]

"Chrome has thankfully started warning users who try to download it." - by andymadigan (792996) on Sunday June 14, 2015 @03:48PM (#49909947)

Google can try explaining it vs. proof my ware's CLEAN (from VirusTotal which GOOGLE owns, you stupid freak):

MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee who also has the source & verified it safe too) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl... & MalwareBytes = BEST antivirus per this VERY recent testing of them all http://www.av-test.org/en/news...

&

It's GUARANTEED safe & clean per it being checked by 57 antivirus programs recently in BOTH its 64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...

+

In its 32-bit model also https://www.virustotal.com/en/...

* :)

In case you hadn't noticed it, like when you made your PUNY THREATS effetely *trying* to "blackmail me" on Hilton Hotels here http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ?

(which I could give 2 fucks about, I made the money already on a successfully done large scale project with them on contract)

I SMOKED YOU TOTALLY @ EVERY TURN, & who started it twice here http://slashdot.org/comments.p... AND HERE TOO http://apple.slashdot.org/comm... saying "I should die painfully" etc. - et al?

You failed badly on all accounts.

APK

P.S.=> Especially funny is that you work for CLOUDWORDS (an advertiser affiliate of Marketo) which tips your hand & PROVED YOUR ILL MOTIVES for your stupidity, running away from this most of all -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

... apk