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Coding Academies -- Useful Or Nonsense? (techcrunch.com)

An anonymous reader writes: Stephen Nichols, CEO of a platform that helps non-coders create simple video games, thinks that so-called coding academies are essentially snake oil. "In 20+ years of professional coding, I've never seen someone go from novice to full-fledged programmer in a matter of weeks, yet that seems to be what coding academies are promising, alongside instant employment, a salary big enough to afford a Tesla and the ability to change lives." His point is reminiscent of Peter Norvig's in "Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years."

Nichols also thinks coding tools will become powerful enough in the next decade that the demand for actual, dedicated coders will diminish (perhaps not surprising, given his business). But he's probably right that the people likely to go to a coding academy are likely to be the ones using those tools, when they arrive. "Put succinctly, coding is writing text files in foreign languages containing instructions suitable for an absolute idiot to follow. ... For a little while, spending tens of thousands of dollars on a coding academy might feel like a good way to surmount the intimidation. ... More likely, it is just a new pathway into debt."

15 of 132 comments (clear)

  1. Nope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Coding academies are nonsense and attract the kind of mind that becomes a lawyer because they want money, or becomes a doctor because they want money. Real programmers have gravitated towards their field long before ever having a formal education in it. Also, I highly doubt you can teach the computer science concepts that back up this field in a few weeks. Really, these places just produce code monkeys who don't really understand what they're doing but glue pieces of code from Stack Overflow together.

    1. Re:Nope by Pseudonym · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Masonry and carpentry is an apprenticeship. I wish that more people in the software business realised that software is too.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    2. Re:Nope by sg_oneill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      [quote]

      Masonry and carpentry is an apprenticeship. I wish that more people in the software business realised that software is too.
      [/quote]

      Once upon a time many of the sciences where too. Back around the second world war, my grandfather who was around 14-15 started an apprentiship with the local national science organization (Cant remember if it was the CSIRO back then) as an industrial chemist. Because university places where largely for the wealthy, as a working class lad his only option was to work as an apprentice chemist and work his way up. Eventually he worked up to becoming a qualified chemical engineer (And yes, they actually awarded bachelor degrees, but they where not as prestigious as ones from a university) , and ultimately ended up at BP designing process control systems for oil refineries.

      Personally I think for practical programming that makes a lot of sense. Of course theres still a role for the research side of it , that still belongs at a university, but there really isn't anything in programming as a tool that precludes it being taught in the same way an electrician learns his trade.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    3. Re:Nope by eulernet · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd like to share my own experience, since I'm self-taught programmer.

      I started programming 35 years ago, on a pocket calculator (TI58-C), then moved onto some micro-computers.
      At this time, I realized that that's what I wanted to do as my job.
      So I spent a lot of time disassembling code, in order to understand how it was done.
      Then I started to write my own games.
      I finally got hired into a video game company, but I realized that working in a company could not provide me enough software education.
      I bought the Art of Computer Programming, and I passionately read it.
      Later, I entered programming contests, where I could explore combinatorial algorithms by practicing them.
      Now, I'm equivalent to a software engineer, though I'm underemployed given my experience.

      So yes, you can practice programming and acquire theoretical bases afterwards.
      But most coders I met were satisfied with their level, never trying to challenge their knowledge.
      I don't speak about learning new languages, but new ways to solve problems.
      They are more dedicated to build their career.

    4. Re:Nope by i.r.id10t · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can see where a boot camp type course - a week or two of really in-depth work on a particular language or technology "stack" can be helpful, IF the folks offering it have qualified teachers AND the folks participating in it are experienced in other parts of software development.

      But as a "I want to learn how to program" ... no, not good.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    5. Re:Nope by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Where I'm paying them to do the work it's more than minimum wage. Look at what you can get on fiverr. I'm not talking about full time job I just need someone to write me a Python or C skeleton to my specifications.

      When I look at how long it will take me to write a simple script to do some boring task automation vs paying someone $5 to do it, it's a no brainer.

      My side jobs are contracted at $100/hr. There is a finite amount of time in the day and if I can pay someone to crank out something that isn't worth my time I'll do it.

      If you are a programmer, this is what you are competing against. Slashdotters are going to have to justify their $30+/hr in other knowledge & skills.

      Even basic stuff like FPGA programming is $5/these days.

    6. Re:Nope by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      I've noticed that a lot of absolute beginners see programming as this mysterious, impenetrable thing. If an intensive boot camp can help them get past that initial hurdle and into writing some working code, then I'd say it's worth it. Obviously they are not going to walk into a well paid job after that, but I think the summary is just clickbait bullshit and the reputable courses don't claim that.

      It's like human language boot camps. Think about how hard Chinese seems to someone who only speaks English. No alphabet, completely different sound, very fast and apparently there are not even equivalent of basic words like "yes" and "no". You immerse yourself in the language for a week or two, and at the end you are not fluent but you make a massive amount of progress and are set up to continue studying on your own. You also get to know if that language is really something you want to pursue further, or if it turned out not to be what you wanted after all.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  2. Stupid Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Teach them math and critial thinking... Coding is just a translation level. ie human "compilers". Taking one language and encoding in another. As C++ is converted to binary (or P-code to bin).

    Writing code easy ANYONE can do it. Understanding what you are writing is meaningful, actaully does what you want? That is crital thinking.

  3. Coding by tomhath · · Score: 2

    coding is writing text files in foreign languages containing instructions suitable for an absolute idiot to follow

    The hard part isn't writing code. The hard part is knowing what code to write.

    1. Re:Coding by Seizurebleak · · Score: 2

      I agree and it's not just coding where people want the hard earned knowledge quick. There are tons of ads for guitar courses that say things like "become a shredding master in 2 weeks!" or "master the fretboard and become a guitar god with these easy steps!". It's the same thing where you might be able to train your fingers to play lead guitar like Slash but if you had new material could you write equally good guitar parts?

      There's always little tricks to make learning easier but there's no quick fix for experience. If you want to learn to do something, you just have to start doing it and keep doing it until you're good.

  4. sure by ThorGod · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's called attrition rate. For any profession there's a relatively small amount that stay within that profession for 10, 20, 30 years. The counterexamples to this rule are the professions that tend to be taken by people that wanted to be in that profession for all of their lives. i.e. an MD or a lawyer. I'm sure coding academies will attract a high amount of novices. But from that influx there will still be some percent - perhaps even 0.001% - that just springboard after it.

    Is it enough to call it not snakeoil? Probably not. In my totally unscientific and personal experience, programming languages and frameworks usually have sufficient information for me to figure them out and know how to use them. That includes the very basic stuff of learning java, for example. If you name a programming language there's a way to teach yourself it for free. So the coding academies are vying for a portion of a market with a "free" and viable enough alternative. I'd call THAT snakeoil.

    --
    PS: I don't reply to ACs.
  5. Need for professional programmers increases by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    Nichols also thinks coding tools will become powerful enough in the next decade that the demand for actual, dedicated coders will diminish

    Just because there are more and more powerful tools does not mean that the need for people to understand how to use them will diminish, any more than cheaper and better hammers have led to a decline in architects.

    What it WILL mean is more and more custom and tailored software being built, which is great.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  6. The old school system needs some change but what i by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    The old school system needs some change but what is the best way to go?

    The University system now days costs to much and some case all the required classes can push it out to 5 years.

    Well rounded is nice to have but now days lot's of people will be better learn more skills and not PE classes that cost more then a 2 year gym / club membership for just 1 class. Some still have the swim test. I say just by cutting the filler / fluff classes we can get it down to 2-3 years.

    The tech / trade schools are more hands on (still 2-4 years) and they have less theory classes. Some theory is good but at some University they trun out people who have very little hands on skills / are not ready for real work.

    The old on idea of your on your own needs to go. There have been cases of people getting in trouble for reusing old work / doing group work in class. also classes that are about cramming for the test need to change as well.

  7. It's actually about the rip off by Required+Snark · · Score: 2
    Current news shows the real motivation for the code academy movement. It just another for profit scam intended to siphon money from the education budget that will inevitably result in a lot of people stuck with unpayable student debt.

    For example, ITT Technical Schools is the latest in a string of disasters in privatized for profit education. They got caught lying to pretty much everyone: state and federal authorities, investors, and students. Here's an example of how these scumsuckers operate.

    The consumer watchdog accused the company of providing zero-interest loans to students but failing to tell them that they would be kicked out of school if they didn’t repay in a year. When students could not pay up, ITT allegedly forced them to take out high-interest loans to repay the first ones, the CFPB said.

    All told, ITT is being investigated by at least 18 attorneys general and three federal agencies.

    This comes on the heels of Corinthian Colleges declaring bankruptcy. Goldman-Sachs owned a large stake in them before they went under. "In 2010, CCi reported that it received 81.9% of revenue from Title IV federal student aid programs." Corinthian is also now the target of multiple civil suits and criminal investigations.

    All the money that went down these rat holes would have been better spent on existing public education institutions, like community colleges and four year degree schools. This is just another painful example of how the private sector fails at some tasks and that many activities are best left to the government.

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
  8. The no man's land by lucm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nichols also thinks coding tools will become powerful enough in the next decade that the demand for actual, dedicated coders will diminish

    That's what they said when they created Cobol.

    Seriously I've seen this same pattern over and over. Some company comes up with a "power user" development tool which is seen as the best thing ever because it will allow business users (who have business knowledge) to do everything themselves. But unfortunately the tool never does exactly what is needed and it proves a bit too tricky to configure so either the thing is shelved or it's passed on to a team of "real" developers so they can integrate in-house tools with this piece of shit and work around the bugs. It's a nightmare because the tool is too high-level and limited for a programmer to easily sets his hooks in, so rockstars run away from that project (or company). That team becomes a dark pit where only lifers and quota employees are thrown in, and they are miserable and the whole thing sucks and there's champagne for everyone whenever a ridiculously low hanging fruit goal is achieved.

    A power user development tool is even worse than an in-house "framework" designed by some dude who left two years ago to do whitewater rafting in South America and never came back.

    --
    lucm, indeed.