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Could Go Community's Threat of Public Shaming, Lifetime Bans Make Go a No-Go?
theodp writes: At first glance, the proposal for A Code of Conduct for the Go Community (attributed to Google's Andrew Gerrand) seems reasonable enough. How can you argue with the goal of treating everyone with respect and kindness? But the Devil is in the detail, and the proposed Code notes there soon could be consequences for calling someone an "idiot" or saying something is "so simple even my grandma could understand it" (the latter "marginalises women and the elderly by implying that something need be simple for an old woman to understand it"). And the punishment meted out by the Go Code of Conduct Working Group to those who find themselves on the receiving end of an anonymous complaint could be anything from nothing to "a request for a private or public apology, a private reprimand from the working group to the individual(s) involved, a public reprimand, an imposed vacation (for instance, asking someone to 'take a week off' from a mailing list or IRC), or a permanent or temporary ban from some or all Go spaces (mailing lists, IRC, etc.)." And no, this doesn't appear to be a goof. So, might individuals and companies think twice about embracing a programming language whose community's Code of Conduct threatens to ruin reputations and ban people from technical support resources for life? Too late to get this added to the list of questions for Alan Donovan and Brian Kernighan?
Shaming a shamer is still shaming, you shame shaming shamers!
Shame on you!
Languages and tools nowadays *are* their communities, pretty much. See jQuery vs. Prototype.
Because parents aren't allowed to beat the little bastards when they get out of line.
"This is a departure from the typical proposal process, since discussions Around Codes of Conduct tend to devolve quickly. By restricting the discussion Of this proposal to 1:1 conversations between myself and members of the Community, I hope to better hear everyone’s specific concerns without generating unnecessary noise."
This is a typical excuse from people who want to push things through without public discussion. They call public discussion "noise". I have no idea who this guy is, but he sounds like an egomaniac. Well guess what? We are calling you out. You don't get "1:1 conversations between yourself" and everyone else. This is the Internet.
And certain other kinds of behavior may also have to stop. Lack of politeness, aka, being a rude bastard is exactly the kind of thing that can lead to one important voice being drowned out and then one important bug being ignored.
You're absolutely right. The hypocrisy shown by those in the "tolerance" or "anti-bullying" crowds is often unbelievable.
The zest and zeal with which these people attack alleged "bullies" far exceeds anything that the so-called "bullies" could ever have delivered. It's made worse when these attackers fail to realize that their behavior is an example of what they claim to be fighting against.
This reminds me of the recent Open Code of Conduct debacle. Seriously, read the comments there. It's truly unbelievable, especially the parts of about "reverse-isms", which basically deems certain cases of discrimination to be acceptable and appropriate!
The problem is implementation - once a community gets past a certain size, you have enough people that the marginal nutcases can band together and be a signficant force.
Because most people don't want to spend half their time fighting to maintain a sane community, they just want to participate in the community.
It's not just online forums, I've run into this with fan volunteer organizations and condo associations - there's always someone with more time than you who wants to enforce their overly restrictive moral code on everyone else.
Usually one tiny little semi-reasonable step at a time.
This is not adult behavior, this is childish behavior. They are attempting to coddle, marginalize, dictate speech, etc etc in an effort to control intent Adults can say that's stupid or you're a moron as part of normal healthy discourse it's intent that matters. Healthy razzing friendly banter etc etc is part of normal adult communication.
No sir I dont like it.
If he just removed the line about "microaggressions" and the following two lines (and examples), it would be a reasonable code of conduct.
Of course, that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The whole point of this exercise is to use the CoC as a means to promote an ideology.
Now, given all the complaints this will surely generate, do you think he'll take his own advice?
Somehow I doubt it.
No pun intended. Seriously, if the creators of Go become like a dictator, we can go take our ball somewhere else. Fork it. Or even use some other languages. Will not be the first time...
" So, might individuals and companies think twice about embracing a programming language whose community's Code of Conduct threatens to ruin reputations and ban people from technical support resources for life? "
Or might individuals and companies embrace a programming language whose community that is polite and professional?
Maybe it is time for people to understand that being straightforward and direct is not the same as being a rude jerk.
If you read the actual proposal you will see that they have a range of options if someone is out of line. I don't know about most people but I have no problem with a life long ban for someone that threatens to kill or rape someone online. And yes it does happen. In fact it has happened to me on Slashdot. It was an AC and it didn't really threaten me much but had it happened to someone else they may have actually been concerned.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Expecting decent behavior is not the same as enforcing hypocrisy.
"Go" fuck yourselves, 'kay?
Hey Andy, have you ever wondered why Plus failed so miserably?
Well, good news - You'll get a second chance to learn this lesson in the very near future!
Even Andrew's Grandma would think his code of conduct silly, he should talk to her about it
Anyone trying to push through a CoC into what is basically a public forum has already gone too far. The only reason for it is to punish people they don't like.
I simply cannot see how having a code of conduct based on treating other people in a respectful manner will result in discouraging desirable developers and companies from joining the community. Quite the reverse in fact!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Says it all.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
I know the 'microagression' thing is a beloved trope of the left and fearless Social Justice Warriors. But the thing is, in order to show what a good person you are in this context, you have to keep moving and moving further and further to the left. It always comes to a point where it becomes ridiculous and counterproductive.
Remember the "Black Lives Matter" people who deliberately disrupted the furthest left presidential candidate America has ever had, the openly socialist Bernie Sanders? Yeah, that. If there is anyone who is a friend of the extremists in BLM, it's him - and yet they treated him like an enemy. Even if you're on the left, or the hard left, there are always others who are ready to show you just how far down the rabbit hole goes.
Now, this is just a programming language, this isn't the literal jackboot of oppression as employed by left-wing governments of the past. Nobody is going to be sentenced to slavery or sent down to the countryside for defying Andrew Gerrand. So, let's keep some perspective here. However, this is showing all the classic signs of the ever-ratcheting extremism that is a hallmark of the political left. They'll come for you too, even if you have a stellar record of social justice warrioring. A single offhand comment is sufficient. I thought I recognized the "theodp" account, and sure enough it's one of Slashdot's solidly left-wing contributors, with a long record of approved social justice friendly submissions. But even SHE is turned off by this kind of thing! :(
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Some people really love gigantic CoCs. It seems like big CoCs are the in thing right now, but personally, I find massive CoCs to be uncomfortable.
Dick jokes aside, while I'm in favor of having some community expectations of conduct, I'm not in favor of building a huge body of rules to cover every single situation. What you need are some simple rules ("conduct yourself with courtesy and professionalism", "don't be an asshole", etc) and a group of trustworthy moderators who enforce those rules fairly regardless of the political views of the person the rules are being applied to.
Even if your rules are well-intentioned, the trouble is that the larger and more specific the rule set, the more easily one clique or another will be able to manipulate those rules to their advantage. It's better, as a moderator, to be able to identify individuals who are toxic and remove them from the community than have a set of arbitrary and overly specific rules that you'll ultimately fail to enforce fairly. All too often, you'll end up deciding that you *want* to get rid of a particular community member due to them having an overall negative impact on the community, and then watching them like a hawk so that you can ban them for the tiniest violation of your rule set, all the while your regular (and less toxic) users are constantly committing tiny rules violations themselves.
To be honest, large rule sets *invite* toxicity, because a) people tend to see them as a challenge, and b) some people realize they're part of the in-crowd and can get away with flouting the rules while other people who *aren't* part of the in-crowd get banned for small infractions.
And this is to say nothing of CoCs which *aren't* well-intentioned. The GitHub projects CoC, for instance, explicitly carved out rights for people to bully others based on race, sex, orientation, etc, simply based on whether that person is part of the majority with respect to those particular attributes. I'm all for disallowing gendered and racial harassment, but I have to suspect the motives of people writing a CoC that gives certain people carte blanche to engage in that kind of harassment. Harassment is *ever a good thing*. You aren't losing anything by disallowing *all of it*.
This is bizar.
Anybody with 2 braincells knows that Linus' phrasing and wording of critique can be notably immature.
He admitted that himself!
Why does a PL need such a policy in the first place?
For instance, the company employing Linus can very well send him a notice, emphasising the fact that he is a public figure - wether he likes it or not - and should be careful when about to fall into profanity. They can offer him a secretary to cross-read his mails on delicate/enraging issues.
There is no need for a friggin' policy just because .5 % of people in coding MLs get childish and unprofessional in a post or two every odd year!!
Good heavens, could everyone just grow up?
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
(1) No, of course she isn't. - Disclaimer so Google doesn't ban me
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
Hey all assholes who code in Go, we in the C and Perl communities would like reach an hand out and welcome you to join our communities!
In the C and Perl communities you can rest assure that you are free to be the uninhibited asshole you really are!
"t Adults can say that's stupid or you're a moron as part of normal healthy discourse it's intent that matters. Healthy razzing friendly banter etc etc is part of normal adult communication."
Among friends yes it can be. In a working group of developers without any face to face social interaction no. At that point it is just harassment.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
then that's what they'll get. I say let them move forward with their plans for ensuring non-offense. They'll get coders who prioritize how they communicate instead of what they're communicating, and the quality of their code and projects will reflect that. We'll see how long it takes for the community that matters to move on to something else.
We will never be the change to the weather and the sea
If anything this makes me MORE likely to use Go. Access to IRC, etc. is a privilege not a right. If you abuse it you get it taken away. Deal.
Go enforces a certain cording style, has rules regarding what you should use and what you shouldn't use and now even specifies how you should behave.
Such uniformity makes sense if you have a company with well defined goals and want to promote teamwork. So yeah, it is very good for Google : they make a language the suits their needs, with rules that matches their company policies.
As for the outside world, then yes, for me it is a no-go. Putting rules beside what's necessary for compilers to work is a great way to make sure that the language won't be used for anything that wasn't intended while offering no guarantee of the opposite.
Maybe at some point, some people will take Go, say "fork you" to Google and start using it as they see fit. In the same way that Google said "fork you" to Sun/Oracle about Java for Android.
You don't know many autistic people. They don't particularly care about people's feelings, or political correctness.
love is just extroverted narcissism
Lifetime punishments are unfair to people that live longer.
Our automagic software review system has determined that you have used a form of the word "bitch" without the required counterbalancing form of the word "bastard."
Your account has been banned for two weeks. To appeal this decision, please complete online form 36-24-36.
It is amazing to me that asking people to act like functional adults and not social misfits in a public forum is a possible death knell for ANY community.
Yes, because the people who managed to design, build, operate, maintain, and improve upon computers, the internet, and software in general for the last 60 years couldn't possibly have been adult. Thank goodness we have this guy to lead us from the darkness and save us from ourselves.
The devil is always in the details, so if they apply the ban hammer TOO harshly, it'll run people off, sure, but it's a little early to assume that, don't you think?
No.
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
No, it's not. People are still people, even if they don't see each other. Calling someone an idiot when he makes a silly mistake does not magically become harassment because Internets.
There's no doubt he needs a code of conduct, and I agree with some of the provisions in there, but you have to read between the lines to get what he means, and it's not pretty. I'd like to quote them all, but there's too many, so I'll stick with the worst:
I sympathize here, as I agree: no everyone does learn English. However: you need to settle on a standard language, and English is the best choice most of the time. Forgive someone for writing sentences with a little awkward grammar? Definitely. Machen es so niemand kann mich verstehen? Nein.
Translation: judge a person on their social status first, and if they outrank you in developer status or connections, keep your mouth shut, no matter how bad the bug. (And yes, it will become this way.)
Hand in hand with the above. Make sure never to anything that could possibly start a confrontation, and if someone has a wrong answer or makes a bug, don't say anything for fear of making conflict.
Long list of things, but this is the worst. Basically, since anything could be offensive (because this totally specifies what's a ""microaggression""), always speak as reserved and uptight as you can, and never relax your guard.
Yeeeeah... Basically, never ever defend yourself, just immediately bow down and admit you were mistaken. The project leader is always right, he knows what's best, and never never ever ever never ever ever doubt him and his infinite wisdom.
YEEEEEEEEEAH... Okay. My grandmother uses that line a lot, and I occasionally do to. My grandmother lived through WWII, with a polish mother, and lost her entire family (save for her parents). I dare this guy to do what she did, to be even a 1/10th as badass. My grandmother and I never mean any disrespect when we say it, it's a very tongue in cheek thing, and only when this guy insists it's offensive does it become so. Why, you ask? I'd never take it serious before, because it's so obvious that my grandmother very well could do it, and yet he has the balls to seriously think my grandmother is not capable of, let's say, lifting a pan. That is way more offensive than the original phrase ever was, just wow.
"Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
The rationale is literal counterfactual nonsense. Having an CoC is neither necessary nor sufficient for having a friendly or "welcoming" community. The proposal gives no evidence about problems in the community or about how these problems would be solved.
The CoC is a non-solution for a non-problem.
"t Adults can say that's stupid or you're a moron as part of normal healthy discourse it's intent that matters. Healthy razzing friendly banter etc etc is part of normal adult communication." Among friends yes it can be. In a working group of developers without any face to face social interaction no. At that point it is just harassment.
+1
I don't see anything wrong with the code of conduct, regardless of the extremely slanted summary.
It may come as a shock to some here, but it is actually possible to have a discussion, even a heated disagreement, without calling people names. And, you know what? It's actually both more pleasant and more effective! Rather than saying that a person who tossed out a dumb idea is a moron, you just call the dumb idea a dumb idea. It's not hard at all, just focus your criticism on the ideas, or code, or whatever, rather than on the people. This still means that people need to be able to take criticism, because when you say someone's code is shit, they may struggle not to take it as a personal affront... but when you call someone a moron it's impossible not to take it as a personal affront. Because it is!
It's certainly true that among groups of friends it's possible, and even fun, to use personal attacks. Everyone knows there's nothing in it, that we're all friends. But that's not the case on a public mailing list, with a random group of semi-strangers.
Look, I often defend Linus Torvalds' occasional aggressive outbursts. I think it's fine that he's blunt and outspoken. I also think he could be equally blunt and outspoken without calling people names. But it's his community, and he can run it the way he wants to. If people don't like it, they can create their own Linux kernel community, and fork.
The Go community is apparently trying to be a friendlier place from the outset and that is also perfectly fine, in fact I think it's better. Okay, so the banhammer could be used to exclude valuable contributors, rather than trolls, but is there any evidence it is or has been used that way? There is not. Go look. The rules are applied sensibly, and enforcement almost never has to go beyond a private message.
This is a good thing.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
I've been around the ziggurat a few times, and unless things have changed in the last few days, it takes at least two willing participants to have a kerfuffle. And since this CoC is designed to protect victims, it will remove the professional victim's raison d'être. And in a world where some people believe that disagreeing with them is harassment, or the never clever "microagression", what we have here is what will end up being bullying in reverse.
The most sensitive and brittle and possibly even incompetent will become the leaders by reverse bullying for a short time, then it all falls apart. Because those selfsame people will make the decisions. And if you have a person serving as moderator, anyone the moderator makes a decision against will have defacto evidence the moderator was violating the code of conduct.
I'll take a Linus Torvalds any day over this kind of namby-pamby weirdness.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
You must be thinking of the fictional, Sheldon Cooper-style depiction of autists. That fictionalization couldn't be any farther from the truth. Most autists, especially highly functioning ones, care very deeply about what other people think about them. In fact, political correctness is the tool they most often use to try to overcome their social inadequacies. Because they care so much about what others think about them, they don't dare risk doing anything that may offend others. That's why they're so committed to political correctness and CoCs. They want to avoid communal conflict as much as can be done. Yet by doing this, they end up offending people anyway, because they take their efforts much too far. The GP is right, and you are wrong. CoCs and autism very well do go hand in hand.
Two examples:
Read: "your conscious actions may show manners and a firm attempt to be decent, but your Id is racist/sexist/whatever so you need to apologize for things that you don't even consciously realize you are doing."
This actually came up in a Go discussion on Google Groups. The person who most firmly defended this point basically said that if you are offending someone, just stop. Period. There is no reasonable person standard, just stop and apologize.
That's not being your "best self" that is you being held hostage to the whims of every nutjob, asshole, etc. that wants to get their way. It's perfect cover for the hyper-sensitive to just flout the rules and then shriek "you are an ${VAL}ist" at you when you call them out.
So no, no company in their right mind would want to be involved with that. Heck, I explained the Joyent/Ben Noordhuis fiasco to my team and it's part of the reason we chose to minimize our use of Node. Why invest in a platform that has a strong representation of fanatical SJWs who go after core contributors over political minutia?
Java, .NET, C/C++ and many other mature platforms used for "real work" don't have these problems. It's mainly the platforms chosen by hipsters to do things like build the next great, overpriced web app that seem to find this worth fighting about.
The downsides being cited against Google's Go "poiteness" policy are all hypothetical. Let's let it play out, do the experiement and see how it does actually play out. You have to try something new or you'll end up where you 've always been.
If you are one who likes where things are, and I am not criticizing anyone who does, then things are as good as they're likely to get IMO. If you think the conversational tone and interactions online would be better if they were other than they are now, then you have to try something new.
Maybe this will work. Maybe it won't. Either way, we're likely to learn something useful.
Really?? Pulling the 'harassment' card out now??? What a moron.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
Simpler explanation - power trip. Look at how many SJWs, hyper feminists, etc try to control the discussion by engaging in preemptive framing.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
The means of communication has nothing to do with it. This is coddling people who have not yet grown up as far as their social interactions. Sure that's pretty common as hardcore programmers go.
No sir I dont like it.
Thanks ok... in the face of politicly correct censorship we can always turn to Orwellian concepts for inspiration, enter: GoSpeak
Now just need to write a Go program to normalise the various offensive synonyms on their forum... fixed no need to ban anyone.
In Linus' case, I'll cut him slack. He's been doing it so long that anyone in his position would get tired of seeing the same crap coding being submitted. He's got standards, and if you're not willing to adhere to those standards you shouldn't be dropping stuff to him. It's not like he hasn't said the same basic stuff 1e6 times in the past, so expecting him to change his standards to not offend some poor snowflake that couldn't be bothered to figure out what was expected is asking a bit much.
In his current rant, yeah, that code was crap and should never have been submitted. Readability isn't security, but security and maintainability gets really harmed by unreadable code.
Maybe we *should* just ignore it. Along the lines of "don't feed the trolls" rather than giving them an audience. We've become too politically correct, and its time for the pendulum to swing the other way.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
The problem here is the same problem that plagues the rest of the Internet, and before the public Internet, dialup bulletin-board systems (BBSs): It's much easier to be a complete ass to someone when you don't have to do it in person to their face. People can and will say anything when it's just text on a screen, because there are few if any consequences. When you're able to be completely anonymous as well (no alias, just literally anonymous) it's even worse, because there are literally no consequences. Of course there's no help for it, as requiring everyone on the Internet to use their real name would destroy a large and very important part of what the Internet is all about. Civility and courtesy can't be legislated, they are qualities that an individual has to willingly adopt, and in my opinion the choice whether to do that or not is a great indicator of the character of the individual in question: Can you observe and respect the implied social contract that exists when you interact with people face-to-face, when you're interacting with them over the Internet?
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
First they came for the BASIC programmers, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a BASIC programmer.
Then they came for the go programmers, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a go programmer.
Then they came for the canines, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a canine.
Then they came for me—and I told them to GTFO my mailing list.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Dude. That form is busted. I'm not going to waste my time trying to be hip.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
While it's possible that a thin skinned person might notice something others missed, it's much more likely that he'll routinely create drama that drags everyone else away from the purpose of the project.
First they came for the aggressors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not an aggressor.
Then they came for the micro-aggressors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a micro-aggressor.
Then they came for the nano-aggressors, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a nano-aggressor.
Then they came for me—and I meekly submitted.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Except that linus isn't constantly rude. He has rugburned a few people who should've known better. Good technical people know that stupid needs to be nipped in the bud. It can't be allowed to fester just so thin skinned people can retain their unwarranted self-images.
I endorse the above post.
Although, every once in a while, I find it... stimulating... to beat a troll down into the mud, inevitably becoming one myself in the process.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
> Since Go’s release nearly 6 years ago
More like 6,000 years ago. Chinese checkers is pretty dammned old, man.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Even my grandmother could understand it's a reference to a generation brought up without pervasive internet and personal computing.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
No, locking people out of a technical community because someone is (or might be) "offended" is not a good thing. It is counter-productive and short-sighted.
A good thing is to encourage people to not think of themselves of fragile little butterflies who will be destroyed for life if someone says a harsh word.
There are now a whole lot of people that need to learn to tell the difference between the speech of people who are passionate about their ideas and people who are actually trying to cause personal harm. It seems that this ability has been lost, somehow. It's not a good thing.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
...marginalises women and the elderly by implying that something need be simple for an old woman to understand it
I am deeply offended at your quickness to assume that my grandmother is "elderly" or an "old woman". I also don't understand how one can so callously write off all the people whose grandmothers do not self-identify as female. Whoever proposed such an intolerant policy deserves a lifetime ban.
Not really.
Any organization that is filled with functional adults really doesn't need codes of conduct, or have strong enough members to police bad behavior where it's found.
Having an official code of conduct that's enshrined within the officialness of the officiating body makes the assumption from the outset that without these rules, people don't know how to behave.
You know, like those darned atheists who don't have a god to tell them how to be nice to each other*.
If you need a code of conduct, you're telling the participants that they're neither functional enough nor self-aware enough to handle the responsibility of interacting with other adults like adults do.
I'm not saying all atheists are nice, or all theists are bad, just that it's a common argument for anti-atheism that suggests people need god or else they might degenerate into lawless troglodytes.
Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
My grandma is Grace Hopper!
Have gnu, will travel.
I would argue the opposite. The mainstreaming of computers/internet has caused an influx of neurotypicals to join the party, and they are used to being able to save face when they fuck up. The aspergers programmer stereotype does not understand this, because, to such personalities, the system is everything, and assumes everyone else involved has the same mindset. In fact, it may be this attitude that allows the blunt honesty that's necessary in technical work. Reality does not care about feelings.
Do you even understand the definition of "harassment"?
Harassment, per Google is aggressive pressure or intimidation. An insult is not harassment.
If you call me an idiot, I'm not going to call that harassment. I might tell you to calm down. I might even ask you what I did (if I wasn't already aware of it) that made you call me that. Hell, maybe you're trying to get my attention because I'm a bit block-headed and can't see the forest for the trees sometimes. A lot of people need to inject something into the conversation to make it halt for a moment. Sometimes, it needs an emotional element (like an insult) to give people time to breathe.
However, if you call me an idiot repeatedly and without prompting, follow me around and start trying to goad others into doing the same, THAT is harassment.
Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
Mellow greetings, special butterflies.
Today (not to disrespect those on the other side of the national dateline - when I say today, I mean everyone's today!) I (with full credit to everyone everywhere, of course) would like (this is not a statement of exclusion for things I don't like) to introduce SJW, the language you can share without fear (not that fear is wrong, of course.)
SJW:
o No insert() function: Instead, we have crafted a flawless nomeansno() function
o Fully complementary yesmeansno() and maybemeansno() functions
o No try:, because every function generates an exception!
o exit() has been replaced with aloha().
o Procedure calls have been replaced with the respectful request paradigm, which obey the global mood settings
o 100% private internal assumption for all functions; offering data requires guessing if the function will take it or crash (exceptions guaranteed)
o Every access from within a function to another function must be embedded in a call to politewrapper()
o politewrapper() implements infinite recursion by use of counters instead of ever returning up a level
o Every function ends with a sequence of calls to apologize(), cleanup() and washreturnvalue()
o All programs will be created equal: all code is treated exactly the same and does exactly the same thing, which is apologize for running.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Very True, people need a spine.
No. CoCs are now about shielding children from reality. It's all about appealing to insecurity in order to control narrative (and thus the organization). Once implemented, they encourage people to say/do stupid shit and then hide behind 'oppression' or 'discrimination' instead of facing up to mistakes and fixing them. Really, the end goal is to burn the project's resources in 'signal boosting' particular political ideologies towards society at large. The more relevant the group, the bigger a target it becomes.
This probably started at the topmost institutions in society (government, ivy league, corporates). Most of the individuals pushing these at lower levels are probably clueless about it, but some are not. These would be the 'crusaders' that've been discussed here before.
The easily offended are rarely civil.
... he's hoping he can please all the people, all the time? Yeah, there shouldn't be a problem accomplishing that. It's not like people have been famously saying that that's impossible for the last 150 years or anything. Proceed.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
Anybody else disappointed that this article turned out to be about the programming language and not the board game?
So then release the bombs if you want it to stop, because nothing short of eliminating intelligent life on this planet will ever eliminate rudeness.
People get emotional and have outbursts, it happens to the best of us. I always felt the old programmer's axiom "be conservative in your output and liberal in what inputs you accept" was really the best. Try not to have outbursts, and when someone else slips....move the fuck on.
We don't need to talk about it, we don't need to make sure it never happens again. We need to move past whatever problems are causing the stress.
Or as I personally like to put it.... it may be rude to put your elbows on the table, but its many times more rude to point out to someone, at the table in front of everyone, that they shouldn't have their elbows on the table. A polite person doesn't need to pick or dwell on the faux pas of others.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
There are plenty of online dev communities with little to no face to face. They razz each other all the time and things are fine. In fact, they are probably some of the most honest communities you'll find anywhere, face to face, or online. The razzing keeps things from getting too stiff and acts like a filter that keeps the whiners out.
I'm offended by the mailing list name golang-nuts because "nuts" is a slang term used to refer to testicles. By naming the mailing list golang-nuts it indicates that it's a male dominated mailing list where women (those without "nuts") are not welcome. Please change the mailing list name to be more inclusive.
Your post gave me PTSD, you should be banned.
You laugh, but that crazy bitch Melody Hensley claims she got PTSD from twitter after she received some spirited criticism for some of her stupider comments.
She also tried to get some active duty military folks fired for daring to suggest that she might not actually have PTSD.
Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
I've been assuming it was the game Go until it became clear it was some programming language I'd never hurd of.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Go won't be used for Linux kernel programming anytime soon.
Have gnu, will travel.
Lumbergh: Yeah...I'm gonnna have to...say...nnnnoooo to this one.
Seriously, if some tool is spouting off and needs to be called on it...
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
I see what you did there.
By that I'm not meaning any respect to those who are visually challenged, or to imply in any way that my optical faculties make me in any way superior to them or more valid as a person.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
No, it's not really autistic people who are pushing this crap. It's people who think they can use engineer's own perceptions of their social skills (whether due to "autism" or not) against them. They come in saying "you're all a bunch of assholes, here's the code the Good People follow". And some number of engineers, knowing their own social skills are not the best, actually believe them. At it's heart, it's basically just a new form of nerd-bashing (even when done by other nerds).
I do not give one milli-micro-nano-fraction of a fuck what race you are, what gender you are or identify as, who you want to sleep with, how old you are, what your height or weight is, what if anything may be different about your body or brain, what language you speak, what country you're from, what God you pray to, where you work, how much money you have, et fucking cetera. Is your contribution any good? That's all that matters.
There is one exception to the above rule: If you're an asshole, you're banned from the project. Permanently.
If your contribution is not accepted, and you start whining about how it's "actually" because you're of some-or-other gender/race/religion/nationality/whatthefuckever, you are attempting to have the deck stacked in your favor because you're "special." That makes you an asshole. And you're gone.
This project explicitly rejects the "Open Code of Conduct" as published by the TODO Group. Anyone complaining about this is an asshole, because who the fuck are you to tell me how I should run my goddamn project? And you're gone.
I reserve the right to change this as I see fit...but anyone who tries to force me to change it in ways that are offensive to me is an asshole. And they're gone.
(Reprinted from my Quora blog)
Be who you are...and be it in style!
We don't need to talk about it, we don't need to make sure it never happens again. We need to move past whatever problems are causing the stress.
I followed everything else, but on its own, this sounds like "ignore problems and they'll magically fix themselves". We're also talking about the Internet. Public shaming in real life is much harsher than on the Internet. Most people on the Internet completely ignore any criticism unless it's turned into a public shaming.
I'm not for public shaming, but I am for "get rid of the idiots that never learn".
Can I still say that something is so easy, a monkey could do it?
No, these days that makes you a racist somehow.
--> Fight tyranny and repression.... read
Most skilled people have virtually no soft skills. Emotions are irrational and the best way to get rid of irrational people is to hurt their ego. A self-confident skilled person will always win in the end. Someone being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk will always lose because all rational arguments come down to logic. Prove the jerk is making a baseless argument and their ego will be hurt. At some point a skill-less jerk will leave or turn into a troll. Once they're identified as a troll, they lose all credence and will be shunned.
Which is why they said "Healthy razzing friendly banter etc etc is part of normal adult communication.", not "unhealthy razzing". I hate it when people are politically correct to me. They're too wishy-washy to tell WTF they are trying to communicate. This is of course for peer communication. This is not a good approach to inter-group communications.
It also requires a certain amount of trust. People communicate much better when they don't need to worry about hurting someone's feelings. If you want to get into a group, be prepared for some healthy hazzing, it's one of the ways trust is built. Say it how it is. If I'm talking nice to you after you had a fuck-up, it's because I don't trust you.
This makes much more sense. If the prevalence of 'autistic' people is what determines the number of codes of conduct, one would expect fewer codes of conduct when the fraction of 'autistic' people in the population drops (which it has done).
Maybe. I operated under the premise of the parent.
Well, actually, most organizations have some kind of CoC because of our easily offended lawsuit happy society. The exception has been online communities, which encouraged a free thinking, merit rules culture. All that matters is accomplishment. Recently, this culture achieved enough cultural relevance to clash with people who have political agendas not related to the purpose of the community. Expecting one's feelings to be coddled is at odds with meritocracy.
I read through the section titled "Examples of CoC issues and their resolutions" in the proposal, and most of the listed examples seem to end with a step that boils down to "person A admits that people's feelz are all that really matter, and not only apologizes for being a boor earlier but also accepts the technical proposal offered by person B without further argument, and discovers that unicorns exist if we just believe in them hard enough".
I think they're missing the step "person A experiences massive head trauma" right before that.
Why not just have offensive text displayed at 20% black, or even in proportion to how offensive and irrelevant it is? Try it, most people will soon learn to not even see the text unless they specificity want to know what is in content of that low a value.
The more I see of the actions of Social Justice Warriors the more I have contempt for their intellects, they are self righteous, petty and aggressive, their actions are immature and lacking in finesse.
Here is a life lesson for you kids, picking a fight only starts wars, it does not solve problems, until you have totally destroyed the people you attack by which time you have become what you hate. Whereas giving low value content only limited recognition places it where it belongs without you risking looking like totalitarian hypocrites.
SJWs start out as what they claim to hate, so they're way ahead of you there.
...now takes a political left turn. Let's see - men accused of rape are guilty by definition. If some nebulous "entity" takes exception to something you write under your own open name they, too, will be able to bring down the lightning without any accountability on their part. Yup. Same mentality.
All of you, say it with me now: "Down with groupthink!"
Indeed. The soundness of a technological argument does not depend on who makes it, it depends on what it says. It is also quite common that smarter people have little patience with what, lets call them "not smarter people" say and may react in "less diplomatic" ways.
Of course, merely pointing out that some people are "not smarter" may already get me banned. And obviously, this go community is not one that respect skills and insights, but how people express themselves. That is a sure recipe for failure in any technological or scientific discipline.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Linux is very carefully only be rude to people that deserve it. Of course some of them claim they have been wronged without good reason, but of you look closer, that is only because they would prefer not to have to listen to an analysis of how they messed up. The problem with politeness is that some people (often the really incompetent ones) prefer to misunderstand what you are saying. After all you were still nice, so your screw-up could not have been that bad, now could it?
Personally, I prefer cutting people to shreds in a polite manner, but unfortunately that does not work often as it requires a minimal level of insight into themselves in the targets.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
That is not what is happening. Try again.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Fascinating. Some people will never ever get a shred of insight into who they truly are.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
So, say, would you advocate not firing incompetent people anymore? And how about if said people had opportunities to become competent but considered taking them too much effort or beneath them?
This is how the collapse of a society starts: Focus on secondary things instead of on critical ones.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Pardon my assumptions based on your signature... "...by the letter 't'..."
It's amusing that this group of people, ones we'll call SJWs, are so quick to judge based on innate traits, something you're born with. At the same time, they oft decry such prejudices while, as you so eloquently stated, engaging in preemptive framing. You, by virtue of a trait you were born with (hence my assumption), would be lauded by certain members of this group, even if they did not know anything more about you. I wonder, how long could you remain within their enclave were they to see you calling them on their hypocrisy or publicly frown upon their antics?
There's a reason I've marked you as a 'friend.' It makes your posts easier to spot.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
What do you mean, "very carefully?" He recently went on an a many paragraphs-long rant about three lines of code. This could probably have been limited to, "Hey, this code isn't good. Here's a replacement that's a lot better." There was no reason to go on a long personal attack for what can be chalked up to simple misjudgment.
I had employees who called me an asshole, told me when I did stupid things, and rewrote my entire code as well as kicked me out of my own server room.
I'm eternally grateful.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
You can't wrestle with the pigs without getting dirty.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
From my observations, SJWs are not good at anything except telling others what to do, what to say and how to think, so any statements referring to skills or competences or levels of difficulty are right out!
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Bah, next you will tell us you care about project success. That is sooooo yesterday.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
First, there are almost no "simple misjudgments". They are almost always part of a pattern.
And look, they are. Somebody messing it up this badly has not understood several very fundamental things. It does not matter that it is "only three lines". There is so much utter stupid in these three lines that it is truly incredible. And there is extreme disrespect for the kernel code quality in addition. Submitting code like this is hugely disrespectful and very destructive.
I am with Linus on this. If anything, he was far too friendly.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
I've been told to shutup when I couldn't stop talking when we were discussing an issue with another senior from another sibling department. He apologized later, but I thanked him. I knew he didn't say it out of spite. It helped me be a better listener. I still talk too much, but I'm better.
The mailing list is golang-NUTS?? This is a perfect example of cis white male ableism patriarchy! As a non-binary fluid gender attack helicopter, nuts is a very offensive term, and I am a big deal in the North American culture-sphere so my opinion matters. Also as a club footed koala I find the term go ableist. I hope they do enact this CoC so I can join the mailing list and demand that they change the mailing group name to not offend my sensibilities! Golang-nuts, fuck you. http://tech.slashdot.org/story... https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/s... //end sarcastic rant
By some definition of "working group". Close-knit groups went to work best. People fall into their natural roles instead of assigned roles. There is a time and a place, but if you want to become part of the group, be prepared to get treated like the group.
And? For any coding project to be successful, it has to accept new coders periodically. Behavior like Linus' behavior here drives those people away. This could easily be code written by somebody who was just starting in the project, a person who could have used some guidance as to best practices. The right thing to do is find out why the code review process failed to catch this problem.
Really, not following best coding practices is never a reason to verbally attack somebody.
I think that "shut up" would have bothered me, internally at least. I don't mind correction (in fact, I welcome it) but being silenced is a problem. I suspect our behavior is different, however. You mention that you speak too much. I tend to shut up and listen before being told to do so. So, to me, it probably would have had to have been an entirely different situation? I guess...
My favorite, and probably not verbatim, "Code comments go in the code, not on coffee soaked index cards, asshole." It did take me a little to shut up and listen. My code base was my baby. My server room, in all its mayhem, was my mad science lab. Eventually, I was busy enough to no longer have the time to do those things on my own. I hired people that seemed to be the best (that I could find).
With enough insight and prompting, I learned that I'd hired them to do things I could not and that they were far better and more efficient than I could ever be. It was hard but I accepted that my code needed to be rewritten - sure, they kept some of it but the whole thing was so much better (and vastly easier to read and maintain) when they were done. I accepted that I didn't need to know the admin passwords and be involved in every detail in the server room.
It was like watching your kid go off to school on their very first day. Awesome but nerve wracking. I could still guide but I did not micromanage. It was tempting to do so and, indeed, I sort of tried at first. Then, well, I'd hired professionals. Get the hell out of the way, shut the hell up, and give them the tools they ask for so that they can do the job.
I don't mind being told I'm wrong - when I'm wrong. I don't even mind it being gruffly done. The way I look at it, it's done because they care enough to ensure it is done properly, otherwise they'd just let me keep going in the wrong direction. I'm amicable enough but that doesn't mean others have to be and, frankly, I'm kind of similar in that I do not like telling someone the same thing twice. I just don't get gruff, I get quiet and slow and enunciate clearly...
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
"New Coders" that then mess it up? I don't think so. Some level of actual real skill required, or people may not apply.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
What can I say? I believe in old-fashioned values like working code. ;-)
Be who you are...and be it in style!
Thanks. Warning - rant ahead.
<rant>Your assumptions are correct, I'm none too popular with the LGBT movement because if the stupidity going on there, and I've called it out too often for their comfort, I guess. For example, last week there was this big to-do about how it's so great that they added male and female signs to handicapped washrooms at the University of British Columbia so that trans people would be safe using them.
The sign actually looks like it's just a handicapped washroom for both sexes. Of course, if people get into the habit of "understanding" that the washroom is for trans as well as handicapped, anyone who enters or exits who is not visibly handicapped has just been "outed." How does this solve anything? Guess I'm too stupid to get it ...
They did this because some people were being harassed when using the washrooms of their target gender, even to the point of being escorted out of the washrooms. I pointed out that all the person being harassed had to do was file a complaint against both the students involved and the university with the BC Human Rights Commission under section 8 of the act. Problem solved. The procedure is VERY easy, the commission will investigate, provide mediators or even a lawyer if mediation is not successful. But no ... that doesn't get the SJWs their ego boosts, and the people affected are to cowardly to stand up for their rights in public, or even a private mediation session. I see their refusal to act as dishonoring the risks and hard work of those who have passed for us (yes, I've gone to my human rights commission twice for people outing me to the general public, it's not that hard)
The week before that someone was passing around that all trans should wear a purple shirt on some specific day or other. Talk about slacktivism. I pointed out that it was a totally useless gesture because nobody outside their little ghetto would understand it, so what's the point? Far more constructive to wear a T-shirt with "Ask me what it's like to be a transsexual?" on it. THAT I could get behind. Another lecture on how I was not "supporting the community."
No, I'm "against the community." Of course I'm against the community. It's a cesspool of political correctness that continues to reinforce the idea that we need the LGBT community to "protect us." We never actually needed protection like they did - people have been more fascinated by us than anything else since the time of Christine Jorgensen. We are the "new hotness". We've got the laws on our side, the judiciary on our side, the medical community on board, the politicians on board, all without having a single transsexual riot. (NOTE: The first act of violence at the Stonewall gay bar riot was by a cross-dresser, not a transsexual). We've even been able to marry in our target gender without too many problems for who knows how long. As long as you had your corrected birth cert, who would even question it? If anything, LGBT organizations have been riding on our coat-tails of public acceptance, all the while treating us like a useless appendage.
And then there's organizers for the gay pride parade that say that obviously they support us, they had cross-dressers on the last pride parade. GTFO. Really, a fine display of the confusion between transsexuals and crossdressers that the LBGT movement continues to evoke. Just like those same organizers automatically assume we're gay. Nope - doesn't necessarily work that way.
My community is my family, friends, neighbors, and anyone else who wants to interact with me, on or off-line. Not a bunch of people who have bought into the lie that the whole world is hostile to us and that we need to have "safe spaces" to live "authentic lives." Just how you achieve an authentic life while withdrawing from the general public is an exercise best left to the reader, because they sure as heck do NOT get the contradiction. But that's what happens when you surround yourself with activists with their own agenda, y
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
A gentleman is never rude _by accident_.
There are times and places where rudeness is the right response.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Poor baby.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
There are multiple overlapping communities.
You can stay in the polite ghetto with all the other unaware bad programmers while the thick skinned continue to build real useful things..
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Having skill doesn't mean you can't make mistakes. And verbally abusing people because of mistakes is an excellent way to ensure that things don't get fixed.
Wil Wheaton's Law says "Don't be a dick*". A committee that constantly insults people inappropriately is not going to be as productive or have as diverse a range of ideas as one that values contributors. If having a code of conduct says that rude annoying people don't participate, because they're afraid that someone in the future might tell them not to be a dick, well, mission accomplished. If they don't like it, they shouldn't be so thin-skinned.
* Yes, you can say that that's technically a sexually biased insult. The people who are most likely to say that are the ones who pretend to be thick-skinned and not care. So don't be a dick.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
You'd have a point if he went straight to rant. He doesn't. To get rant you have to have ignored a stack of FAQs and some more gentile personal correction.
Disclosure: I've left comments threatening to break all of a programmers fingers and toes (so he couldn't code with his feet) if I found out who had written a block of code. Of course I knew who wrote it. I just pretended not to so I wasn't threatening anyone directly.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
All of the highly skilled programmers I know are all very nice people to work with, but absolutely hate working with idiots. They put on a nice face during the brief interactions that sometimes need to happen, but we all get to play listening buddy to the most recent programmer who had to talk with someone. Lots of venting, lots of swearing.
Stick a programmer in a situation where they can't get away from incompetent people, and you have a pressure cooker. Of course no one wants to hide who they are all the time, so other people think they're jerks for letting of steam all the time instead of getting suicidal.
I made a comment that included the word "porn" while discussing playback on a Gentoo IRC. I didn't discuss porn, or details of porn, but I got a ban just for using the word "porn". Then when I complained it was "strongly suggested" that I make a personal apology to the offended party. When I refused my "one month ban" was upheld.
But three years later my "one month ban" is still in force.
So the "personally offended" person, being an "important person", got me that treatment.
So at least Go is being up-front about the sort of interpersonal bull that actually rules other "overly correct" projects.
I call it "being exclusively inclusive".
Innocent people shouldn't be forced to pay for inferior software development.
--"Code Complete" Microsoft Press
If you have a Code of Conduct, it means your community has failed to treat people well in the past and is not able to change this without strict rules (so it's still failing). Fix your community, not the COC.
Fair enough. My 30 years experience is hardly statistical proof.
I will continue to make my decisions based on my experience. Fainting pussies have no place on my teams. If I ever run into one that is an outstanding programmer I might reconsider. Hasn't happened yet.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The community can get fucked, nothing but a self-reinforcing pity party, inflicting mutual psychological self harm. The only benefit they provide is great cover, because of the stereotype of being awful, obvious, and dysfunctional. As for the umbrella: bunch of weekend warrior fetishists, lacking any conviction in their own identity, trying to steal validation from those who live it 24/7.