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Ask Slashdot: Smart Electronics For a Marathoner?
New submitter IMightB writes: My question is basically what is the best smart watch style device for runners. Must have features GPS, bluetooth and music storage for roughly 5 hours of use during a marathon. Pretty much everything else is a nice to have. My wife has recently decided to enter her first marathon and unfortunately, the other day during a training run her 7gen iPod Mini gave up the ghost due to moisture accumulating in the armband and her Garmin Forerunner 15 only lasts about 3 hours with GPS on (despite Manufacturer claims to the contrary). She would like to consolidate devices down to something with a watch style format and start using a bluetooth headset. I currently use, and really like, a pair of aging Jaybird JF3's for a bluetooth headset and will probably recommend to her whatever Jaybirds current equivalent is in their lineup. But the watch portion is eluding me still. Based on my current research, the Sony SmartWatch 3 may be the only one that fits my wife's 'Must have Requirements' Are there other options available? Can anyone with marathon or distance running experience share their thoughts on this subject? Thanks in Advance.
I am an avid marathoner I am looking for something similar. This is what I have my eye on http://www.motorola.com/us/consumers/watch/Moto-360-Sport/moto-360-sport.html
I hear of runners running (no pun intended) into trouble when they are out practicing while wearing headphones. If she's just getting started, do you really want to prioritize on that?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Does not exist. I've never heard of a Garmin that only has a 3 hour battery life, I think you may have gotten a lemon. I don't think Apple makes a nano/shuffle with bluetooth so she may end up using her phone for music. The GPS on the phone apps is not as good as Garmin or the other running watches so you will end up with at least 2 devices. I recommend the Garmin 220 for the watch, I don't have a good answer for music.
Just get one. I know you want one. Stop making up stories about a "marathoner wife". We are geeks, we understand.
Haven't tried it yet, but seems promising. gps, heart rate and 4GB of storage, should last long enough for a marathon.
Runner's watches are slightly different than the usual smartwatches, as they have built-in gps and better battery life than ordinary smart watches, which rely on your phone fro music and gps.
I use a Polar m400 for gps while running, and it lasts about a week with daily 6mile running (gps tracking). Unfortunately no music on that one.
Timex Ironman 50 lap watch:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Timex-...
That watch trained me through at least 10 marathons and a couple Ironmans. I had a Garmin GPS watch + Heartrate monitor for a while, but I found myself paying more attention to it than just paying attention to my body.
50 splits so I can get splits for each mile of the marathon. The "Flix" backlight was handy for night runs so a flick of the wrist turns on the light. Battery lasts for years, and the watch is 100% waterproof (which is more than I can say for the Garmin - I had to send it back for repair twice when water got inside)
Consider a single earpiece, a Motorola Elite Flip or Silver. Excellent battery life, good audio if only in one ear, and a free ear might be handy. But I really like my BackBeat Fits.
Several battery cases are out there for iPhones.
An NXE armband might work better against moisture. Find them in TJMaxx, or of course the usual discount haunts.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Look for Garmin Fenix 3. It a bit expensive, but a great watch. It has two GPS (one of them in Glonass) and provide more than 50 hours of battery life while not in running use. It also has all those fancy features (sleep, activity, step count etc.) Recently, I did a 50 miler (in ~13 hours) with both GPS on, and the watch battery lasted. Indeed, the watch had 14% batter still unused. The watch can also be used for triathlon, skiing, climbing and other outdoor activities (its also water proof). I can see for a an athlete this is a true watch to explore.
You can pick up an old motorola MOTOACTV for cheap and root it: http://motoactv.wikispaces.com... . I love mine for cycling, and with Augmented smartwatch pro on my phone and sideloading apps through ADB, it will do many things that the latest smartwatches still don't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I have the same watch but with the hiking firmware. The Foretrex and I get EASILY 6 hours out of it.
You need to contact Garmin and have it sent in for repair, you have a bad battery in yours.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Excellent question. While I'm not a marathoner I am a half-marathon runner and have some experience with this.
The Pebble/Pebble Time supports showing running stats on the watch when synced up with RunKeeper or Endomondo. There might be other apps available but those are the two I've used.
They require that you have a smartphone drive them, and you'd have to have enough smartphone battery to not have the phone die while using GPS for your run.
Both apps let you start/pause/stop your run from the watch. I used to use this for biking (and a bit running) and it worked out really well.
Note neither currently has a built in HRM, an so you'd need to wear Bluetooth HRM to sync with your phone if you care about that stat, but they CAN show you your heart rate on the watch.
I've since transitioned to just using a TomTom GPS Runner or Multi-sport with the built in HRM as that works well for me while running. It also removes some of the battery anxiety I used to get when using my phone for GPS.
I've tried a number of devices for fitness. Anything with built-in GPS is going to seriously degrade your battery life while it's on. Even phones drain insanely fast when using actual GPS satellite signals instead of wifi for geolocation. 2 hours of continuous high-resolution GPS tracking is going to be par for the course for this type of device.
Must have features GPS, bluetooth and music storage for roughly 5 hours of use during a marathon.
Music/podcasts are great for training but generally frowned upon in actual races, I think a lot of big marathons actually ban them since people not hearing could be a safety issue.
I've personally never had an issue getting bored during races and for training I just bring my phone and a pair of bluetooth headphones for podcasts.
Garmin Forerunner 15 only lasts about 3 hours with GPS on (despite Manufacturer claims to the contrary)
That sounds like a warranty issue. I don't know about the 15 but my old 301 lasted through the entirety of a 10.5 hour ultra.
That being said if I were to get a new watch I might be tempted to peak at the smart watches.
I stole this Sig
those aren't runners, they're swimmers that can't find a pool
Most organized sporting events (marathons and bike races at least) ban headphones.
So while great for training, they are worthless for the event. Some people rely on music for motivation, which is fine, but I would suggest you get used to it without.
And when training, keep only one ear bud in, I cannot tell you how many runners did not hear me yelling on your left to pass and then they get frightened and pissed when I do pass. sennheiser make decent sports earbuds.
And I suspect you got a lemon Garmin. I used to use the forerunner 300 I used before I got my edge 810. The 300 lasted me a good 8 hours. The 810 lasts me about 5 hours when I used live tracking (paired to phone provides realtime tracking for family or friends, good for long solo rides for safety).
I came, I conquered, I coredumped
Yea, you need the game system, a collection of games, pizza, caffeinated drinks and multiple sets of batteries for your wireless controllers and head sets.... The trick is to keep everything within arms reach of the recliner you are sitting in.
Oh wait... You are talking about physically RUNNING as in OUTSIDE and more than 5 paces? Dude... We don't do that here on Slashdot.
Also, how on earth did you catch a wife that runs? I mean a real one, I thought we had lower standards than that here.... Turn in that "Geek/Nerd card" and draw a "Man card" out of petty cash.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Perhaps...you could just go out and run?
Seriously. I've done multiple marathons, the Disney Goofy Challenge, a number of triathlons including two Ironman races, etc... You don't need all this fancy stuff. Just make sure you keep a phone with you (or your wife in this case) in case you have an emergency, bring ample water and snacks if you're out for long training runs, and enjoy the time. Get away from computers, TVs, phones, etc. Enjoy being outside. If you and your wife are running together, then enjoy the time together, working to a common goal, away from all of the hustle of normal life where everything is connected.
Running without all the crap is the best, most enjoyable, time for me. I love it. I used to run with music, GPS tracking, etc. Now, just a phone in case of emergency and sometimes not even that. Give it a try. You'll love it. And your wife will too.
The iPhone 6 lasts over an hour underwater with no issues.
The Apple Watch is the same, you can wear it in the shower and to clean it they recommend running it under the tap. They also say you can wear it in the rain...
So why would anyone worry about a little sweat?
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
The Apple Watch works great for tracking running, there are a number of running apps on iOS that work with it - Runkeeper in particular will work and measure distance on the watch alone even without you carrying an iPhone with you, I think by measuring average stride when you do have the phone with you.
It also has a very good battery life and a heart rate monitor which is handy.
The only missing ingredient: You didn't mention if you had an iPhone which it requires... but you also did not explicitly rule out an Apple Watch, so I thought I should mention it as I'm using mine to train for a 10k (not marathon, but it still involves a lot of running every week).
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I actually preferred an old Timex watch with a stop/start button myself, since I already had measured the distances by car, and used to run along arterials and rural highways.
Wearing a headphone for music can get you killed. I used to opt for hanging light headphones around my neck during training, but during an actual marathon I would go electronics free. If you're at all a decent runner, you may not be in a pack, and a car can ruin your day (and your life).
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I ran marathons back in the 80s and didn't have any iPod, fancy watch, etc. Just do it!
And get off my lawn!!!
You young whipper snapper! I started in the 70s, and we had to build our own electronics, which we didn't use, because real marathoners go electronics free!
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"Must have features GPS, bluetooth and music storage for roughly 5 hours of use during a marathon. Pretty much everything else is a nice to have."
Nobody else found funny that for a sport watch a clock/chronograph is not among the "must haves"? And it supposedly is a "smart" one!
That's why it's a good idea to get a blinky light to hang on the headphones you hang around your neck, so the cyclists don't hit you when running.
The bike path is softer than the too hard sidewalks, as any decent runner knows.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
I have been running for 30+ years at this point.
Some points:
* There is not going to be a perfect device. As the saying goes, a Swiss Army Knife is no replacement for a well stocked toolbox. A few dedicated devices will do the trick much better than an all-in-one device will.
* While listening to music while running can make the time go a little faster, a running partner will be a much better addition. When it is dark and snowing outside and you are warm and in your bed, knowing that someone is going to be meeting you in 30 minutes is better motivation than anything else. Training should also always allow you to talk while you run (otherwise you are going too fast). Having someone there to talk to makes sure you are going at the right pace.
* Once you have some experience with them, a heart rate monitor can really guide training. Pace can be affected by ambient temperature, wind, inclines, and other factors. Your heart rate is a better indicator of effort.
* I have not had the Forerunner 15. I have had the FR60, the ForeRunner 405, and the ForeRunner 220. All of them have been able to get 3+ hours. The 405 was the worst of the bunch, but that was a relatively early GPS watch. Even then, it got 3+ hours for the first year or so. The 220 gets 6+ hours - I have honestly never gotten the battery down very low. Even after 3+ hour runs, it is showing more than 50% left. I generally use the 220 for 3-4 runs before I consider charging it back up.
* I never run with my phone. It is partly because of bulk, and mostly because I go running to get outside and get away from the always-on world we live in. I only listen to music on my long runs, and for that I have an older iPod Shuffle.
* As others have mentioned, http://www.dcrainmaker.com/pro... is the best review site out there.
* Based on your needs, I would consider Garmin's newest watches, the 230 or the 235: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/201... I would also purchase an iPod Shuffle. If wireless is a big requirement, I would look at the iPod Nano and BlueTooth headphones.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
I run.
..") but most watches won't have this capability.
Marathons, half-marathons, long (8 hours) orienteering competitions, whatnot.
I won't tell you what to buy, but I can suggest some more "must have" features.
1) If she is serious about her training, she will need a heart rate monitor. At least as a beginner. Experience will help her understand her body without a HR belt later, but first, she will need this experience!
2) She will do intervals, right? Some watches are better at that than others. Good, clear display is a must. Audible signals (beeps) will also help. Some people preplan their trainings ("1 km with HR 150, 1 km with HR 160,
3) GPS accuracy differs. A bad watch can lose GPS signal on open field - and never get it back. Want to run in a park? Forest? Even worse. Go read up on your device of choice before becoming a field tester.
4) As mentioned earlier, night mode (backlight on) may be needed.
5) Check the training display options. She (probably) needs a combo of pace, HR, distance & time, lap distance & time. Does Sony have it?
If you can, let her do a test run and go a full cycle - from planning to training to analysis.
For reviews, http://www.dcrainmaker.com/ is your friend. Nobody else is as thorough as this guy.
I have Garmin Forerunner 405 and Polar M400 GPS watches. Both are horrible. Garmin has worst UI one could imagine, it will literally drive you nuts. Polar has the worst software support that money can buy.
Of course people have been doing fartleks and intervals without any GPS, so none of the requirements is really a MUST. But if she is really into running, get her a runners' watch, not a glorified media player.
Did you look in a runner's community forum?
http://community.runnersworld.com/forum/gear-electronics/
This is a really common topic there.
I had that same problem also (could not wear stainless steel backed watches or metal bands) but the Apple Watch back is unaffected, even though I wear it all the time working out.
Most of the back is I think glass (the round part over the heart rate sensor LEDs). The rest of the body is coated, so is in essence not metal against your skin.
The adjustment knob is similarly coated and has no issues.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Microsoft Band 2 is your answer. Standalone gps, standalone music playback, etc. you don't need to take your phone with you. It has a hr sensor and even measures altitude changes for the pesky hills. When you're done running it can show you your stats via the watch, the web, iPhone, android, or windows phone. It's a really nice little device.
Bomb Detector
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have backups to corrupt.
"Scotty. Beam me to the finish line."
Have gnu, will travel.
First off, you need to protect your electronics from perspiration. Both my wife and I have destroyed MP3 players and I have destroyed a cell phone due to perspiration. I put mine in ziploc bags or use those plastic bubbles used for shipping things.
Best option for marathons is one of the dedicated GPS watches. I have a Garmin Forerunner 405 and it was capable of lasting through a marathon (5+ hours for me.) At present I use a running app on my Nexus 5x and use it with a Moto 360. The advantage of that is:
- choice of running/activity apps.
- watch eliminates need to pull phone out to start/stop/pause
- watch has configurable screens for whatever stats I want to see.
Downside -
- Moto 360 battery won't last through a marathon. (Maybe with the right app...)
- Requires the phone - but a newer Moto watch has a built in GPS. Might still need the phone for the HRM though.
At the end of the race when I'm hot and sweaty it can be really difficult to stop the run on either watch or phone. Touch screens don't react well to sweat tracks.
That's why it's a good idea to get a blinky light to hang on the headphones you hang around your neck, so the cyclists don't hit you when running.
The bike path is softer than the too hard sidewalks, as any decent runner knows.
At the very least, wear some reflective gear - I have good lights on my bike, I usually turn them down low on the bike path so I don't blind other trail users, but come on people - don't wear all black and run in the middle of the trail. Reflective gear may not be "cool", but it may help you avoid a trip to the hospital. It's gotten to the point now where I turn my headlight up to medium when I'm on unlit trails so I can see darkly clad pedestrians.
...and I did all of them with a series of iPod nanos for tunes (replacing when they broke, got soaked, whatever), and a Garmin 305 for tracking distance. The 305 is the most accurate gps watch I've found that, while it doesn't have a lot of nice features (color screen, map details, start up time less than 15 minutes), it has been invaluable for training and the race, never letting me down on accuracy. I haven't found a do-all tool that I could stand to run with (I like the idea of the apple watch, but running with an iPhone to provide gps is an absolute no-go as I can't store it in a place that would remain comfortable for 26.2 miles). Hope that helps.
Better would be to mount a small sprayer on your bike frame. A little spritz of safety orange could help save that black clad pedestrian from the next bike to happen soon. Done discreetly enough they might not even know you did it until considerably later.
For music, I use a SanDisk Sansa Clip Zip with Rockbox installed. I've used SanDisk players for years, and they are great for running. It has the advantage of being small, long battery life, good storage (8GB, but with a micro SD card slot for a lot more music) and cheap.
For marathons, I recommend a watch to help keep your pace and to keep track of your progress. The Timex Ironman watches are pretty solid. I haven't felt the need to have additional features than what it offers.
Not a big fan of carrying phones with me, since they are bulky. I'd rather have as little on me as possible when running.
If you need electronics during running, you should plans your routes through more interesting places, where there is more to see.
As a runner myself, the only electronics I bring along are two lights.
You really want to keep an ear open for traffic.
...and try to finish the marathon before the battery dies ! How's that for an incentive ?
Non-Linux Penguins ?
As something of an athlete myself, my advice to your wife is to focus on upgrading her engine, and worry about the bells-and-whistles later. Especially running out on public roads, but out running anywhere in public, you need to be aware of your surroundings, not drowning them out with music blaring in your ears. Furthermore running 26.2 miles requires mental toughness and focus; if you're relying on something external to drown out your personal demons, who are trying to sabotage you, what's going to happen when the thing dies or your earbuds fail? Skip the music. GPS I could go either way on, but if you know the course you're running on, what do you need GPS for? A watch with a chest strap for monitoring heart rate should be all she really needs to get started, they're inexpensive, durable, and will run for months on one set of batteries. If you really want to spend money on your wife being successful at marathoning, invest that money in a professional coach to give her a personalized training plan, monitor her progress, and overall maximize the benefit of the time she spends training.
..and no, this wasn't the advice you asked for, but I think it's the advice she needs.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
As I run long distances and marathons frequently, this is the gear that I usually have with me:
- iPod shuffle 4th gen: without touch screen and with real buttons this one is runner's best friend. It had survived rain and sweat drops and its battery lasts for more than 12h of music. Its clip and non-existent weight make it very practical to carry
- Garmin Forerunner 220 - It's battery lasts 8h (on paper) with the GPS on and I had occasions of 5-6h long runs with it with plenty of battery remaining
- Samsung SIII Neo - My old android phone, I also carry a spare battery for it. Useful for safety ofcourse and also to support the Forerunner for live tracking, Endomondo, Runtastic and other apps (Ingress !)
-=dchrys=-
The Garmin's battery only lasts 3 hours? Then run the marathon in 2.45.
interesting - I've never seen this. Are you in the US? I'm UK based, and I've never seen people running in bike lanes in preference to the road/pavement.
I have a first generation Pebble that works fantastic for running, as a controller/display screen for Runkeeper on my android phone. It's waterproof, easy to read in the sun and real buttons (pause Runkeeper) work much better than touchscreen. Battery lasts around a week. Have tried expensive headphones and cheap earbuds, find that bluetooth headphones (my pair say arctic, but there are lots of look alikes on Amazon) are easy to slide off if I need to, fairly reliable and have buttons to control the music. I prefer headphones to earbuds, I think I hear more around me. Also generally run facing traffic or on sidewalks, so no close calls with vehicles. Battery on the headphones lasts multiple runs. My only issue was during a run in DC, where we were under a highway for a significant distance and no GPS signal was available. But that would be an issue with any GPS based setup.
I have run a number of marathons. The Sony Smartwatch 3 has great features, supports Bluetooth Smart for pairing with a HR monitor (I strongly recommend Scosche Rhythm+, by the way) and tracking apps, e.g. Endomondo.
I don't wear headphones or listen to music while running (by the way, race organizers discourage headphones during races). So I want a loud alert for intervals, in other words, I want a device with an external speaker, which the SW3 doesn't have. So I just use a Geonaute 510 tracker watch (el-cheapo European brand, but has a feature set similar to that of Garmin Forerunner 220) and Scosche Rhythm+ HR monitor.
DC Rainmaker has many and very comprehensive reviews of sport watches (smart- and non-smart), sports gear, etc.
Yeah, if you have a Samsung phone, the Samsung Gear S makes sense. Unfortunately, a Samsung phone is basically required to install apps. Non-starter for me.
=>You will not get what you want with one device (at least not in my experience.) A real training watch with GPS is not an mp3 player and vice versa
For tracking and logging relevant data (time, distance, pace/speed, heartrate, cadence) you want a dedicated device. Garmin makes some cheap watches at $100, but you're better off spending a little more and getting a Forerunner 2xx - these are great. You can also build structured workouts on them to do interval training, etc. Trying to use an Apple Watch or something else like that is going to be costly and will never be as good. Excellent battery life on these as well.
Music: I strongly advise against headphones for several reasons, but the ipod shuffle is probably the way to go if you must - small, no frills, long life.
Here's why I don't like headphones:
Situational awareness - tuning out to tune in to your music is dangerous. I also just generally believe that using headphones in public while moving (walking/running/etc.) is intrinsically bad as you're that much more likely to block others, get int he way, etc.
Headphones are frequently banned at events.
Training: if you're simply looking to cruise and finish the event, then this doesn't apply, but I think that's a poor approach to races, especially road marathons with reg fess at $100 or more. Needing music to run means you don't like running in of itself and it means you're not focusing on the running. Sounds crazy to noon-runners, but surroundings (on-road or off) should be enough stimulus when you're actually training - think about form, cadence, footstrike, etc. Running well - for speed, for distance, for anything - takes practice. When you stop paying attention or when you get tired, your form starts to decline, which is why it's so important to train conscientiously to develop good ingrained mechanics. This also makes you more efficient and helps with injury prevention.
Just an anecdote... During the VA Beach 1/2 Marathon last year, my Garmin inexplicably stopped about 2.5 hrs in. It still had plenty of battery life remaining, and I was able to start it up again, but had to manually join the files once I loaded them to my computer. Same race, same watch, but this year, no such problem.
As for iPod Nanos, I've been through 3 of them, all dying, likely due to moisture in the armband. I really don't want to carry around something the size of a cell phone.
Just another day in Paradise
I've done marathons, ultras, and tris with my Garmin 910XT; it was awesome but simply stopped turning on last year. After a lot of research I replaced it with the Garmin Vivoactive and have loved it so far.
It does not have music storage, but it does have bluetooth, so you could use it to control a phone/ipod which has music on it. I don't know of any GPS watches that also have storage but that wasn't something I looked for either. (I don't listen to music when running; if you do please be extra careful as other posts have mentioned)
The cons of the Vivoactive:
-"only" 10 hours of GPS battery life; should be plenty for a marathon but the 910 had 20 hours so this was a downgrade
-can't turn off or configure the sometimes annoying step-tracking feature (so far, that I've found)
Things about it I love:
-can be used as a smartwatch
-great battery life as a smartwatch (screen is color LCD with backlight, instead of always-on LED like Apple watch or others)
-very very small profile and light weight
-has vibrate; some of the cheaper GPS watches skip this but I love it for mile split alerts
-it has swimming/biking/indoor workout features
My coworkers recommended that I build an arduino *something* and encase it in resin. While intriguing, I don't think it would meet WAF (Wife Approval Facter) On a side note, the ONLY piece of tech that I have ever discovered that meets an extremely high level of WAF are Harmony Remotes.
I recommend not wearing any gadgets. They increase your weight, reduce your situational awareness, and increase your time to completion. Many marathons outright ban them and for good reason.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Roku. Netflix. A decent tv. Probably your phone, so you don't have to get up to order a pizza. What else do you need?
Oh wait, not that kind of marathon.
While she does have a S3, she doesn't want to carry her phone with her. And from all of my research, the Gear S doesn't have a built in GPS
It does have built-in GPS, and, according to the reviews I've read, phone synchronization is only needed for the initial setup and for installing apps. I still wouldn't buy the Gear S even if I had a Samsung phone, because it runs a proprietary Samsung OS called Tizen - I'm not thrilled by the idea.
I just ran my 13th marathon last month, and I have never understood the need for all these fancy bells and whistles. Then again, I'm 46 years old, and why don't you get off my lawn?
I run with just a Timex watch (with chronograph) and an iPod Shuffle (with Yurbuds Ironman). Every marathon (and half-marathon) that I have ever run has had mile markers, often with synchronized chronographs. This should be sufficient to recognize if you are falling ahead or behind on your splits.
Most of the time you are going to be training on a familiar path, with known mile markers that can allow you the some convenience. I train either on the running path of my local park, or around the blocks of my neighborhood, and I have these locations well memorized. Laying out a path on Google Earth can help with this.
As far as longevity, the watch will usually last me a good 10-15 years. I did have problem with my iPods dying from sweat exposure, until I also figured out the zip-lock bag method an earlier poster mentioned. I have wanted to try one of the waterproof Shuffles from UnderwaterAudio.com but haven't had the need since using the zip-locks.
Just something to consider. Happy running!
The 920XT is my fourth GPS watch and best by a wide margin. No battery issue, even for 12 hour bike events. It uploads the data without me having to think about it. Great workout features once you get the garmin connect site figured out. I use the heart rate features a lot, but that's me. Nice smartwatch features. It's a little big for small wristed people, but otherwise, no issues at all in over a year. I have run over 30 marathons. I have friends that swear by the new apple watch and the Forerunner 235 does wrist heart rate if you are lighter skinned, both are smaller. I use my phone for audio during training, but mostly leave it in the car during races.