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Value of University Degree Continues To Decline (www.cbc.ca)

Posted by samzenpus on from the worth-the-time? dept.

BarbaraHudson writes: Following up from an earlier report from Statistics Canada (pdf), the Parliamentary Budget Officer warns that an increasing number of university graduates are overqualified for their jobs. The CBC reports: "Last year, 40 per cent of university graduates aged 25-34 were overqualified for their job. Five years ago, that percentage was only 36 per cent. In 1991, it hit a low of 32 per cent, or less than one out of every three university graduates. The problem is bigger than that, because those young workers spent money, time, and resources to get those qualifications.

69 of 393 comments (clear)

  1. Why Not Vocational? by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Everyone" says you'll go nowhere without a college degree. But guess what? This is neither what many kids want nor society needs.

    Vocational schools need to amp up the sales pitch. Machinists of the Tools and Die variety make 40$ and 50$ an hour, and that ain't bad.

    Some people just are not interested in the 4 year menu.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:Why Not Vocational? by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The construction trades are facing a critical shortage of electricians, plumbers and whatever else, as foreign workers had left the country after the Great Recession and older workers are retiring.

    2. Re:Why Not Vocational? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I used to be a CNC machinist. Tool and Die machinists are not representative of the salary you can expect as a college dropout gone tradeschool. You can expect to make $25-30 in a city or $18-25 away from a population center. Most of the people you're selling this idea to are going to become machine operators. It's a hard and competitive industry with razor thin margins and high stress. I'm convinced the 2 years I spent in that industry aged me by 5...

      For those not in the know: Tool and Die makers almost universally have white beards and pass on sage advice to the younger generation from their 25+ years experience. You can go through an apprenticeship to become one in a union shop but for the most part: nobody is going to hire someone in to that position who has less than 5-10 years experience running manual machines/programming CNC equipment.

      Contrast that you what you can make with a CCNA or doing plumbing: I do not recommend Machining as a viable career choice unless you loved metal shop in high school and want to turn a hobby in to something you hate. The best machinists are usually mechanical engineers who got tired of sitting at a desk.

    3. Re:Why Not Vocational? by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      It is? Great! No, I mean it. Free university is a great tool to improve the value of university degrees. If everyone can get in, you can up the requirements to get out. If you need 10k people with a degree, and instead of 20k starters you have 100k starters, you can weed out eight times as many people. Up the difficulty and allow only the brightest and the ones that are willing to work the hardest for it to get it.

      Let brains be the limiting factor instead of wallet. What comes out of such a university with a degree must be gold!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Why Not Vocational? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Most of all, never let your Chinese subcontractor make ANY decisions concerning the product. None. For one simple reason: Chinese education is one of obedience. Thinking for yourself is punished, not rewarded. You are given a task and you are given the instruction how to do it. And you are required to do it that way, and only that way. Doing it in a more efficient way will get you reprimanded because it was not what you were tasked with. Don't think, do as you're told.

      This does not really make people question anything odd they come across. Something can be horribly inefficient or even destructive and they will not even think about remedying it. If your design means that the item produced will roll off the belt broken and useless, it will be broken and useless because that's what the design demands. They will not even ask you whether you really want it that way.

      This in turn means that they will not consider the "spirit" of an order you give. They will take the order and fulfill it in the way that is closest to the letter of your order without consideration for the reason why you gave it.

      In other words, if you want an additional switch in your product, you should specify that it should be on the outside where it can be reached...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:Why Not Vocational? by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Informative

      German style with numerus clausus on fields that are overrun is not the worst idea, but also not the best. Because it depends on your former achievements, not how you fare in a university environment. And given how German schools and universities are vastly different in education style, I don't know whether this is the right way to do it.

      Personally I'm more inclined to let everyone in and use the first year to find out whether the people have it or not. My math prof used to work that way. Allegedly 90% of students failed with him in their first try (personally I don't think it was that many, but it's not far off). What I do believe, though, is that he was responsible for more than 50% of the dropouts. His style was grueling. He didn't hold your hand. "Here's the curriculum, this is what you should know, here's the book, read it. If you understand it, come to the test. If not, you have no reason to be here and coming to the test is wasting your time as much as mine" was basically his lecturing style.

      That's where I not only learned math, but also how to get information on my own because, as I said, he didn't hold your hand. And I think the latter part was even more important than the former. What I expect from a university degree holder is that he's able to organize his own work, to dig up solutions for his problems on his own, to know how to look up stuff, to find solutions.

      I expect him to not need me to hold his hand. And that's something that is SORELY missing in what's coming out of the degree mills of today.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  2. Back in the old days by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    University graduates were rare. There were far fewer universities and university places. Thus the intrinsic value of having a degree was higher, all other things being equal. And the difference in education between someone who had finished university and someone who had not was readily apparent. Nowadays the lines have become blurred. The sheer volume of graduates means that you are competing against many people who have exactly the same educational qualifications as you, whereas before it was a distinct advantage.

    A degree is no longer a guarantee of a decent job in your field. In fact nowadays a Bachelor's is almost a minimum requirement for many jobs. On the other hand, NOT having a degree can be a disadvantage. It's up to the individual to weigh themselves carefully and judge whether the time and effort and debt required to receive higher education are worth it. A brilliant person will shine through even when covered in mud, and you can polish a turd as much as you want but it will remain a turd. So are you brilliant, or a turd? This should influence your decision.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    1. Re:Back in the old days by rmdingler · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So are you brilliant, or a turd? This should influence your decision.

      Likely as not, people suffer greatly as honest appraisers of their own self worth, and yet, without some unfounded self-confidence, there is very limited individual success.

      We might infer, from that information, that those individuals gifted with inflated self worth are statistically more likely to succeed.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    2. Re: Back in the old days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The more important thing to weigh is the opportunity cost (4 years down the shitter) and student loans (unless you're a desires minority or athlete and get a full ride for those reasons). In most cases, it's not worth it to go for a degree.

      Universities have been dumbed down , hugely so. What used to be a place of higher intellectual discussion now is a 4 year party with some liberal PC brainwashing in between. And then these women's studies or English lit bozos come out of college and question why they can't find a job except Starbucks or McDonalds. But the other part of the problem is employers are demanding university degrees for things thatbdont require them, like secretary work or entry level positions.

    3. Re:Back in the old days by Dunbal · · Score: 2

      Depends on your definition of trolling. Apparently for you it's "comments I disagree with". Karma: Excellent. But whatever :)

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:Back in the old days by Dunbal · · Score: 2

      hat those individuals gifted with inflated self worth are statistically more likely to succeed.

      Some people might call that "self confidence", and yes it is directly proportional to success.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    5. Re:Back in the old days by Dunbal · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you're somewhere between turd and brilliant, I guess that means you'd better hurry up and pick one or the other?

      I used extremes because it's an easy way to make an argument. But if you're "average", then you should expect average results. Another thing I have learned which ties in to the second part of your comment: It is almost impossible for an excellent person to continue excelling in a mediocre environment. It's much more likely they will become mediocre themselves.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    6. Re: Back in the old days by Dunbal · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Universities have been dumbed down

      This I fully agree with. I've seen graduates who can't do basic arithmetic without a calculator much less the ability to apply their knowledge to a situation they have not specifically encountered before. I think it's because students are taught to pass tests instead of taught actual practical and applied knowledge.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    7. Re:Back in the old days by TheSync · · Score: 2

      Likely as not, people suffer greatly as honest appraisers of their own self worth

      Private banks might be better at doing an evaluation of whether you will make enough to be able to pay off your loans after graduation.

      But in the US, the government first started guaranteeing private loans, then they just totally socialized them - although you can not use bankruptcy to get out of them.

    8. Re: Back in the old days by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

      My late father complained for years that kids don't know how to make change. When I worked in a restaurant as a backup cook after college, we had a three-hour power blackout that took down the ordering terminals and none of the wait staff could make change or write out an order slip. Management closed down the restaurant after 30 minutes.

    9. Re:Back in the old days by FrozenGeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Also depends on the degree you receive. A degree in philosophy or polysci or whatever is not likely going to make you highly marketable. Normally, I would say that you're pretty safe with an STEM degree. However, I attended a conference this weekend that leaves me wondering. One of the speakers was a comp sci prof from my alma mater. The stuff she said sounded more like something I'd expect from a sociology prof. If that's what's passing for comp sci these days, I'd have to question the value of a comp sci degree.

      For the record, I'm not a misanthrope. I just dislike people.

      --
      linquendum tondere
    10. Re:Back in the old days by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      A lot of people just aren't worth liking.

    11. Re:Back in the old days by RogueyWon · · Score: 2

      I'd say that in the UK at least, there's a twist on this.

      Our graduate numbers have soared since the early 1990s, as a result of the policies of successive Governments (most notably the closure/rebranding of the vocational-focussed polytechnics and the Blairite policy of 50% of teens going to university). Alongside that, the average quality of graduate employment and the size of the average "graduate premium" on salaries has fallen sharply.

      That said, when you look at the detail, the situation has changed a lot less than you might think. We have a very distinct hierarchy of universities here in the UK, with, I would say, even sharper differences than the whole Ivy League thing in the US produces. At the top of the pyramid you have Oxford and Cambridge, the elite of the elite. Then you have a small number of other "elite" universities (including several of the London ones). Then you have the traditional "red brick" universities; good, but not elite. Then you have the "new" universities and former polytechnics. It's also worth noting that the difficulty of degrees varies massively between those institutions. A BA from Oxford or Cambridge may require 15-20 hours of lectures or supervisions per week, a similar quantity of reading time, plus, depending on subject, an essay, piece of translation work, small coding task or other such exercise per week, as well as a more substantial piece of project work over the course of a term or a year. Fail the exams at the end of any year and they generally throw you out, unless you were seriously ill. At the "new" universities, on the other hand, there may be a couple of lectures per week, an essay or two per term and virtually unlimited resits on offer for exams.

      When an employer looks at a CV, the expectation these days is indeed "degree by default". So the first thing said employer looks at is which university awarded the degree (the hierarchy of universities is pretty much imprinted in the minds of the British professional classes). The second thing is the subject the degree is in (anything with "Studies" in the name is taken as a bad sign).

      Once you apply those filters, you can see that the impact on the employment prospects and salary increments of those going to university today who would have gone to university under the standards of 30 years ago have not actually fallen all that much (if at all, at the top level). The only difference is that with more people going to university, the grants system is effectively dead, so they are graduating with a lot of debt they wouldn't have had 30 years ago. That said, student loan repayment terms in the UK are exceptionally generous. Meanwhile, those who would not have been able to go to university 30 years ago, who go to the "new" universities, in most cases are gaining next to no benefit to their employability (and in some cases an outright disadvantage as they are competing with their peers who didn't go to university and have been in the workforce getting experience for 3 years), but are saddled with a similar level of debt.

    12. Re: Back in the old days by Gilgaron · · Score: 2

      When I worked a restaurant we always closed for a power outage because of the health code. Besides which, you can't generally change the way semi-prepared restaurant food is cooked and have it turn out well.

  3. Then why all the Temporary foreign workers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If so many people are overqualified, then why all the complaints about not being able to find qualified workers and why all the foreign workers in both Canada and the US.

    It couldn't be because of the crappy wages being offered, could it?

    1. Re:Then why all the Temporary foreign workers? by Kellamity · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because university graduates need on the job training, but an imported worker comes to you custom picked for their experience? Why train a grad to be your next SAP developer when you can get one from India who already knows how to do it?

    2. Re: Then why all the Temporary foreign workers? by Kellamity · · Score: 2
      Well I never said they were any good! They seem to be able to get jobs somehow though.

      I spent most of my time as a graduate 'junior' developer debugging and re-writing garbage code that was churned out by our 'specialist' contractors who got paid more than me. Oh wait, I'm still having to do that...

  4. Reading between the lines here... by grasshoppa · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...does "overqualified" mean "has a degree but can't be trusted to change a lightbulb"?

    Because ya. Holy hell, ya.

    --
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    1. Re:Reading between the lines here... by mark-t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No.

      Overqualified typically means ones technical training and qualifications would rightfully be deserving of higher pay than the employer wants to spend.

      --
      File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
  5. This by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In the context of the article, it seems to me "overqualified" means - you bought an education which you cannot use / do not need for your work.

    E.g. having a university degree is "overqualified" for a barista job. Sadly, there are many (usually non STEM) degrees for which there is literally zero demand by employers. Where are the counselors on the front end of the university acceptance process? Hmm, seems like they just take students for the good of the school, not the needs of the student, or society.

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    1. Re:This by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 5, Informative

      E.g. having a university degree is "overqualified" for a barista job.

      I spent my first three years out of college working as a backup cook for a restaurant. Why? I skipped high school and went into college, getting a college degree without getting a high school or G.E.D. diploma. Most entry-level employers focused on the high school diploma and refused to hire me even though I had a college degree. I didn't start my technical career until a roommate's company hired me on as an "intern" because they didn't have the budget to hire a full-time staffer. With the economy in the Great Recession crapper, I know a lot of "overqualified" baristas.

    2. Re:This by TWX · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There are more journalism graduates per year than there are journalism jobs in the totality of the profession.

      I blame two things on creating this situation- a college degree requirement or strong preference where it does not actually contribute anything, and a glut of people going through programs in college to get any degree in order to satisfy the unnecessary requirements.

      Now that there's a bubble in the number of those seeking college, colleges charge more for tuition. That in turn means students take on a greater debt-load or their families spend disproportionate money on something. Those that do not finish college or can't find the work that they trained for effectively wasted tens of thousands of dollars or more. It also means unscrupulous businesses operating as colleges can collect tuition money so long as they manage to squeak-by with their accreditation, and I'm not entirely certain that the ratio of enrollees-to-graduates factors into accreditation.

      I think that we need stronger rules for accreditation and we need employers to stop pushing so damn hard for college-graduates for jobs that do not need them. We also need to be more realistic about the sizes of programs based on the actual growth of fields they train for and to put an end to churning out orders-of-magnitude more graduates than there are jobs. I'm looking at you, music schools, journalism schools, business schools, and your ilk.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re:This by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      E.g. having a university degree is "overqualified" for a barista job.

      Well, part of the problem is the economy has been changing.

      Employment trends have been losing full-time jobs, and people have been moving to more and more part time jobs.

      Because companies are downsizing and offshoring, and generally not hiring people with skills any more.

      Essentially since 2008, economies have been cannibalizing themselves, and more and more jobs are getting crappier and crappier.

      So, ask yourself why those people are working as baristas ... the answer is MBAs and CEOs have been carving the jobs out of the economy to turn it into "shareholder value" and "cost savings".

      This has nothing to do with university acceptance policies, and everything to do with globalization gutting jobs and leaving very little skilled work domestically. Because we've been following the idiotic policies of cutting corporate taxes in the hopes they'll create jobs, and not tying to cuts to actually driving the economy instead of gutting it.

      And the jobs which do exist are being driven down in value to 'temporary foreign workers'. We've given corporations everything they want, and in return they've fucked all of us.

      Welcome to the New Fucking World Order, bitches. It's all downhill from here.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:This by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In the context of the article, it seems to me "overqualified" means - you bought an education which you cannot use / do not need for your work.

      Or, it can mean that the only jobs available for most college grads are shitty jobs.

      How in the world do you use the percentage of students who are overqualified for their first job as a measure of the value of an education instead of as a critique of the corporate workplace?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re:This by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How many of these degrees look like they will lead to a job? To be sure there are many, that are good degrees, and if it weren't considered a microagression to point it out, most sane people can also point out those degrees that one should probably not go into debt to acquire. Or certainly not complain about it if that is one's choice.

      --
      This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
    6. Re:This by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      California has a different set of rules about college enrollment via the community college system.

      In California, you only need to be 18 years or older to attend a community college. A high school diploma is not required, though you may have to take remedial courses offered by the college and some majors, such as engineering, may require a GED before you can transfer to a four-year university

      http://edsource.org/wp-content/publications/pub10-NoHSDiplomaOptions.pdf

    7. Re:This by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are more journalism graduates per year than there are journalism jobs in the totality of the profession.

      But journalists have skills that can be used in other areas, such as HR (interviews); research, such as marketing or competitive research; and business writing. Just because you don't get your target profession doesn't mean you can't use any of your major.

      --
      Table-ized A.I.
    8. Re:This by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I actually had a company do a background check on my high school diploma. It was easy enough to provide them with details on the school, thanks to the internet. The school records (paper only, of course) had long been lost. The company hired me anyhow, as apparently that was an OK outcome, but it was still an odd thing to check. (In Cali, you can get a copy of any background check results if you find the right box to check - it's fascinating.)

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    9. Re:This by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      If journalism schools capped their enrolment even more tightly then they already do, then the cost of tuition would have to go up, or costs would have to be cut.

      Or there could just be fewer courses. Why not have three good ones rather than two good, ten mediocre and four crap?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  6. Instant Gratification Error On Line 3487 by Tablizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've seen multiple studies showing that in the longer run a degree more than pays for itself on average, even liberal arts.

    This seems like a contradiction to TFA. One possible theory to reconcile this is that it takes time to find or become ready for positions that use education.

    The idea that you'll be doing more than just grunt work out of college is perhaps unrealistic. Employers want educated AND experienced employees. It takes a while to get sufficient experience.

    Even if you start in grunt work, learn what you can around you, pick up tidbits, listen and learn in meetings, go out of your way to do extra, read the policy & procedure manuals, practice your people skills, understand how your little corner of the work-load affects the rest of the org. Clues are all over the place. Education doesn't end out of college.

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
  7. Marginal students do not benefit from college by TheSync · · Score: 2

    From The Option Value of Human Capital: Higher Education and Wage Inequality

    "...we find that subsidies inducing marginal students to attend colleges will have a negligible net benefit: Such students are far more likely to drop out of college or become underemployed even with a four-year degree, implying only small wage gains from college education."

  8. Re:The obvious answer by ILongForDarkness · · Score: 2

    This is a Canadian study. I'm Canadian and the university experience I had both white and male were the minority (and vastly so in some fields: humanities women, math and CS asians). More women graduate than men. More women than men work in professional jobs. Asians make more than whites on average (ever wonder why they aren't included in affirmative action check boxes in most schools?)

    Agreed having a degree doesn't equal qualified. Switching jobs out of your field and taking something else for example. Study music because you like it but then end up working as a social worker instead. Etc. The other thing is fields that cross education levels like IT and programming. I have a masters degree (and got it for my amusement not for any desire to use it for a job qualification) but have worked at places were my colleagues only had college. It didn't really matter, whoever was the more experienced or otherwise better code monkey was more senior regardless of education.

  9. What kind of degrees are we talking about? by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

    Underwater basket weaving? Well, that would be okay if it taught my relief to show up on time...

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  10. It's the corporations stupid! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The problem is not that most folks are overqualified with university degrees, BUT

    corporation don't train their employees anymore for their job nor future needs via corporate strategy. Instead candidates must guess what the industry needs (via hype by marketing agencies and wall st) and go with the university degree since it guarantees some level of qualification--which is also what the universities advertise and push their high tuition costs (profit!).

    If corporations provide a consistent and future proofing level of training to their employees, tuition costs would be lower, people would be qualified for their jobs, people & corporation would feel productive. Instead universities profit and corporate higher ups profit (due to the lack of training budget--and we know that's a big dent, just look at how much the gov't spends on training).

  11. Missing information... by Idarubicin · · Score: 2

    ... an increasing number of university graduates are overqualified for their jobs.... 40 per cent of university graduates aged 25-34 were overqualified for their job.... The problem is bigger than that, because those young workers spent money, time, and resources to get those qualifications.

    It could be a problem, but we're missing some information. This is looking at people aged 25-34. A lot of them are taking crappy entry-level jobs. A lot of them don't have any significant work experience, and have trouble breaking into their preferred fields. A lot of them have student loans and other financial obligations, and just need to take a job - any job - to keep food on the table and a roof overhead. (That, in itself, is another kettle of problems that I'm not going to go into right now.)

    An important question is, then, how many of them are still overqualified by the time they're into the 35-44 age bracket? Was the extra education actually "wasted", or did they eventually come out ahead because they didn't have to drop out of the workforce later on to go back to school to get the education they missed in their twenties? Did their extra "unnecessary" knowledge help them move up the ladder faster than they would have without it? (I'm not looking for anecdotes - of which I am sure there exist examples to suit any preferred narrative - but rather real data.)

    And that leaves aside the rather more philosophical question of whether or not it's generally a Good Thing to have more university-educated individuals in it, even if they don't need those degrees specifically as job training. Are universities now only vocational schools, and only of value to society in that context? If I can't cash in my degree for a high-paying job, is it worthless?

    --
    ~Idarubicin
    1. Re:Missing information... by Idarubicin · · Score: 2

      If 40% of those university graduates are still overqualified by their mid-thirties, they've already been typecast by their experience in the 25-35 range.

      That's certainly a problem with the data provided--it bundles together the fresh-out-of-school 25-year-olds with the decade-plus-in-the-workforce 34-year-olds. There's a lack of resolution. It could be that 40% of 25-year-olds and 40% of 34-year-olds are "overqualified". Or it could be that 60% in the 25-29 age group are overqualified, and just 20% of the 30-34 bracket.

      Actually, that brings to mind another confounder to the interpretation of these data. As more young people get more years of formal education (3-year college diploma to 4- or 5-year bachelor's degree to 7-year bachelor-plus-master's degree) they enter the workforce later. A 25-year-old with a high school diploma might have been working for 7 years (and is also more likely to be working in a job for which they are not "overqualified" by their lower level of formal educational attainment). A 25-year-old with a master's degree might have graduated this summer and could still be job-hunting.

      --
      ~Idarubicin
  12. The value isn't declining by rsilvergun · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the job market is. Outsourcing + H1-Bs (insourcing? idk...) means it's hard to get a job in your field and you settle for something that pays less. This is what happens when countries swing so far right they stop protecting their working class.

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  13. Uh... no by rsilvergun · · Score: 2

    back in the old days you couldn't just declare there were no qualified applicants and bring over an H1-B. You had to settle for someone without a college degree. Because of this there was still a future for people who didn't finish college. Now outside of diesel mechanic it's a death sentence. You'll never make more than $15/hr (give or take for your region) because why the hell would I take a risk and spend money training some punk without a degree when I can get an H1-B fresh off the presses, run him/her into the ground for 4-8 years, ship them back a broken person and move on to the next one. Work life balance? Who the fuck cares? Just bitch about precious little snowflakes or something and everyone will turn a blind eye to how I treat people...

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  14. Cause meet effect, effect say hello to cause by Crashmarik · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The U.S. is arguably the most capitalistic and market oriented country on the face of the earth yet amazingly we manage to produce vast swaths of the electorate that somehow think economy is some strange kind of magic run by dragons and fairies.

    What did anyone think would happen if we produced more degrees without insuring there would be demand for them ?

    On the one hand you had simple supply and demand hitting the prices http://www.wsj.com/articles/co...

    Simplified tuition aid was mostly a handout to universities not students.

    Then you have depressed pricing for the labor of people who earned a degree.

    1. Re:Cause meet effect, effect say hello to cause by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

      What did anyone think would happen if we produced more degrees without insuring there would be demand for them ?

      They were the lucky one who won the lottery and everyone else was screwed. It's the American way.

  15. Blame H1-B's? by kheldan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe if asshole business people weren't importing cheap labor from overseas and hiring our own citizens for a living wage, we wouldn't have this problem. Subsequently we also wouldn't have the problem down the road of 'not having qualified applicants', which is their lame-ass excuse for importing cheap-ass labor from overseas on H1-B's in the first place! MEMO TO CORPORATE AMERICA: Stop shitting on our citizens!

    --
    Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    1. Re:Blame H1-B's? by fluffernutter · · Score: 2

      Really? Because every time I say something that would go against capitalists, I get dismissed as a communist. I immediately want to rob people of their hard earned wealth, as if there is no other way redistribution can happen over time.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  16. Re:Type of degree important? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 4, Informative
    If you click on the last link, you'd have read that the following fields are the worst:

    business, management and public administration
    social and behavioural sciences and law
    humanities.

    No surprises there ...

    The pdf also states:

    Conversely, the lowest rates were found in education; architecture, engineering and related technologies; and health and related fields (with percentages varying between 9% and 13% in all three cases).

    Those are the fields you should shoot for.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  17. Diplomas are all but worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A "college degree" is a piece of paper. And from an employer's perspective, it is worthless. Pieces of paper do not solve problems. Employees solve problems. Employers have problems that need to be solved - that is the only reason they hire people - so if you want to get and keep a job, you have to be able to solve more problems than you create.

    Lot of employers look for diploma's when evaluating potential hires, since there is a correlation between holding a diploma and being able to solve problems. But the correlation is less than 1.0 - much less than most college administrators, politicians, or social activists will admit. And the correlation is declining.

    That's what this is about: Any value in a college diploma comes from its correlation to problem solving ability. And as that correlation declines, so does the value of the college degree.

    Another way to say this: credentials!=capabilities. Employers want capabilities, but universities are in the business of selling credentials. Generating credentials is cheap - it costs perhaps $5 to print a diploma. But teaching capabilities is much harder. To increase their business, universities have found it expedient to decouple credentials from capabilities, so they can sell cheap credentials at huge markups, while using clever marketing to deceive customers (students) into thinking that credentials and capabilities are the same thing. Eventually markets will wise-up to this scam. We see that happening now with the "Value Of University Degree Continues To Decline."

    If your goal is to improve your problem solving abilities, getting a university degree is still a good way to do that. But you must be deliberate in pursuing that goal. Problem-solving skills are not magically conferred by professors - they take discipline and practice. The classroom is a good place to learn problem-solving, but doing so is becoming more of an independent study. If you are just drifting through college, and doing the minimum needed to get buy, you will emerge from the university experience with no new skills but with a lot less money, and your diploma will be worthless.

  18. Degrees in What by Pete+Venkman · · Score: 2

    Not all degrees are created equal.

  19. Inefficient by Dega704 · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm sure this varies with different fields, but it seems like many degrees involve spending a lot of money to learn copious amounts of extraneous material with no real world application to the career you are aiming for. I went to a technical college and had a couple of classmates who had previously been working on computer science degrees. They quit because they just plain weren't learning the skills that they needed for the IT careers they were pursuing. On top of that I have met people on several occasions who were flabbergasted to find out that I had obtained my current position with only an associates degree. I didn't have the heart to tell them about my co-workers who have nothing but their high school diplomas. Of course many of us have certifications as well. I dare someone to try and tell me those are a waste of money with this elephant in the room.

    1. Re:Inefficient by Dega704 · · Score: 2

      Not a bad guess, but wrong. I got most of my certifications in 2012 or later. I got my first sysadmin job in 2013. My current job I started just over a year ago, and fortunately is a new enough company that they leave aside most of the bullshit and grill candidates with brain teasers and actual technical questions. There was once a time when I pursued MS certifications, but decided I didn't enjoy working on Windows systems; and Linux is now a much more valuable skill to have anyway.

  20. In what way "overqualified" by SuperKendall · · Score: 2

    I think by "overqualified" they mean that more people have a piece of paper that says they majored in some subject but are instead working in some "lesser" area.

    But what about REAL qualifications - i.e. writing. t doesn't matter what field you are talking about either, except perhaps McDonalds burger flipper and I'll bet even THEY benefit from a higher standard of literacy.

    I've met a lot of people over the years in companies who cannot express ideas in writing very well and it sure does not seem like that number is going north even as more people are "qualified" than ever before.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  21. What is higher education? by Atmchicago · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is higher education vocational training, or is it it how we instill the broad knowledge and critical thinking skills necessary for an informed population? Vocational training doesn't belong in universities. Of course, people learn useful skills and develop specialization while in college, but the real end goal for students is to emerge as critical thinkers who then pursue their career of choice. In some cases, that means an advanced degree, and in other cases it means the job market, with on-the-job training.

    A major problem is that a lot of people go to college when really they just need job training. They don't care for, and don't receive, the real education that college degrees represent.

    --

    You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.

    1. Re:What is higher education? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      And some people go a completely different path away from their chosen academics.

      A former boss of mine has owned her business for 30 years. She was a psychology major turned self-employed mom who built and sold furniture, eventually creating a product as a manufactuer. Her business is valued well into the 10's of millions, and is still privately owned. Not bad for a 'small business.'

  22. The lack of will to think by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 3, Informative

    I am not at all surprised at the falling value of university degrees because, as you have stated, those who are coming out of school are simply not as good as their elder peers, but this phenomenon works only in developed nations, based on my own experience of having business in several continents

    Many of the recent college graduates from developed nations (yes, even in Eastern Asian nations such as Korea and Japan) are seriously lacking the will to think

    I don't know if they are lazy to think or if they are afraid to think, I simply don't know

    Compare to them, the college graduates from 3rd world countries, particularly from those we used to call 'banana republics', while they are lacking in ttraining (their colleges are simply not as good as the one in developed nations) they made up with their eagerness to try out new stuffs, to explore and to think

    My present and future plan is to sustain the number of employees in developed countries, to provide services to our existing clients (most of them are from developed nations) but for those so-called 'banana republics' I will be looking for more talents, and will provide them plenty of training to bring them up on par with their counterparts from developed nations - they deserve every single penny of training I invest on them because they are eager to improve themselves

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
  23. Re:It's the work experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Stop complaining that the kids don't have business experience. They have an education. It's up to employers to give them business experience. You are what is wrong with corporate America/Canada

  24. Re:The obvious answer by kelemvor4 · · Score: 2

    We need fewer white males and more women and minorities to go to college!

    Hasn't that been exactly the trend for some time now?

  25. Not really accurate by WindBourne · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The real issue is that so many kids today take degrees that society does not need. How many journalists, philosophers, artists, any business item esp MBA, Law, etc does a society need? Basically, too many ppl are pursuing easy degrees. What is needed are things like engineering, nursing, medicine, computer science, etc.

    And yes, at the same time, we need to add more to vocational. So does Canada.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  26. Not H1Bs by Tony+Isaac · · Score: 2

    The unemployment rate for STEM jobs is around 2%. Many tech jobs are well into 6 figures. I really don't think H1B visas are causing an actual problem here.

    On the other hand, there has never been much of a demand for "liberal arts" majors, but universities keep cranking them out, and parents keep going into debt so their kids can get these degrees.

    What's happening is that people are starting to finally realize that a college degree isn't for everyone. We've been sold a bill of goods by the education institutions. They're riding high right now, but the roller coaster is about to come down the hill.

  27. Wrong, maybe, sure, and kind of. by s.petry · · Score: 2

    We have to step through a brief history lesson for this one..

    This is the consequence of sending everyone to College.

    The point in sending masses to college was to have a well educated public. Read Plato's The Republic and you will see that even 2,500 years ago Socrates knew that the only way for a society to succeed and be fair for everyone is by having a public with the best education possible. Some people would only be intelligent enough to be farmers, but everyone should learn as much as they possibly can. Back in the early/mid 1900s the public was sold a bill of goods here if the US Government controlled education we would have such a great public. But the people in power knew that a well educated public is also a danger to an elitist group who want's to control everything. So while the portion of the vision where the Government took over was done, and the amount of schools and universities increased. The quality of the education was diluted to the point it is today, where as the person above said I see people with BA degrees that can't perform basic math without a calculator and college students are demanding and being given "safe" spaces to hide from opinions they may not agree with instead of being able to debate a subject intellectually.

    Some people are smarter the others.

    Sure, some people are naturally smarter than others. That said, without the right education people can be convinced they are smart while in reality they are dumb as rocks too. The appeal to intellect has been very effective at turning our current "education" system into the shambles it is. With a good education system, even the lowest intellects can become extremely important members of a cohesive society.

    College used to be the cream of the crop.

    Nope. College used to be the cream of the wealthy ensuring they stayed that way (or putting in as much effort as possible to do so). College was never a fair place to go, and there was no testing among the public to see who was bright. If you farmed dirt you stayed a dirt farmer. If your family had wealth you went to college and got into the family business or politics. Hell, most of Isaac Newton's life was being a politician, or ass kissing to get there.

    Now it's just a representation of the population in general.

    People today have a crap education, so the fact that everyone one means very little. A few are going to get the most of their education and catch on to the game (if they can afford the right schools), but the majority won't. This is not very different than the days where only the wealthy went to college.

    --

    -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

  28. Re:Unskilled work. by lgw · · Score: 2

    You're thinking of construction gruntwork (largely replaced by equipment these days), not the skilled trades. There are strict licensing and apprenticeship requirements that limit supply (and also make it hard to get started, of course). The jobs pay well enough, but you do need to be a bit entrepreneurial to keep doing it as you age. If you can get past a "1 truck company", however, you'll earn a fantastic living in middle age.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  29. It's about time. by Qbertino · · Score: 2

    It's about time this happened. It's like Peter Thiel said back in 2010 or so: The housing bubble hasn't disapeared - it's just moved on to academic education.

    I have no notable formal training or education in my field and yet I can outprogramm and outconfigure most of those with an academic background. Why? I'm an 80ies computer kid that learned most of this stuff from buddies and of the bbses and networks.
    Whenever I go to an university I notice that they are 2 decades behind in technology and standards.

    I'm all for hard subjects and fields getting a solid education and that includes academic education. But to much of that is happening in the isolated ivory tower. It is long overdue that the job market gets more diversified in terms of where the people come from. You have to be so specialized in todays world that even an academic training can be to general.

    That's why certified SAP and Oracle experts often earn more than their purely academic counterparts.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  30. Up the ante, another round of certifications! by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The value of college degrees decline because we hand them out for free today. Everyone's a winner, hooray! And because precious snowflake MUST have a degree, we can't simply accept that anyone could simply be too stupid to warrant getting one. So degrees get dumbed down to the point where they become utterly pointless. When everyone has a lump of gold, gold is worthless.

    Governments all over the globe have been pushing for more academics. We need more people with a degree! University degrees used to be something the upper 10% (if that) of people had. That's not enough, we need AT LEAST 25%! And lo and behold, we got them. Did we suddenly get so much smarter that more than twice the people could get one? Or is it more likely that it was dumbed down until a quarter of the population is good enough?

    This of course affects the job market. Because we sure don't get more jobs to fill. The requirements for jobs went up in turn. Suddenly every job needs you to have a college degree, even if it's at best ridiculous to require one. But we can get a college educated person for the same price as someone without, so why not require it?

    In turn, jobs that used to require college education now demand additional relevant certification. Which makes sense for top level positions and positions where a certain experience and additional training is a given, but we're talking entry level positions here. And no later than that we're getting to where your wallet becomes more a factor than your skill. Because in some fields the relevant certs cost money on par with another year of college. Or, depending on your country, even more.

    Of course that devalues university degrees.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  31. Re:Engineering FTW by Opportunist · · Score: 2

    Get a fucking engineering degree, and you're almost guaranteed a good paying job unless you're an idiot, completely socially incompetent, or obviously crazy.

    Why would such a person aim for an engineering degree anyway? They're obviously far better suited for management and the pay is even better there!

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  32. Re:Paper Mills by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Informative

    This.

    Let brains be the decider, not money. If we make sure everyone can get into college, we can up the requirements in terms of skill and brain power and end up with the same amount of graduates but at a FAR higher skill level.

    This is actually how it was in my country from the 1970s until about ten years ago. Around 1970 (forgot the exact year), our "socialist" government decided to make university free. You wouldn't BELIEVE the outcry. And of course the university were flooded with new students the next year, but the flood soon vanished as professors noticed that they have to weed out most of the students because there simply was not enough room to even educate them properly. This in turn meant that anyone who got a passing grade before because, well, we need doctors, would not stand a chance anymore. Only the upper sliver, the cream of the crop, went on. The rest was left in the dust.

    What came out of our universities in the coming decades was pure gold. We, a small, insignificant country in Europe, had some of the most renowned universities on the planet. Free universities, too. Anyone could get in. Getting through, though, was a completely different matter. And that contributed in no small part to the reputation of the degrees. If you made it here, you'd have made it anywhere.

    Things changed big time when politics changed in the early 2ks and they decided we really need more people with a university degree. And we got them. And HR is already catching on. You already get asked "You got your degree from $university before or after 2004?" when applying for a job. 2004 was pretty much the "cut" where we suddenly had a surprising leap in graduates...

    Employers ain't dumb. They know what degrees are worthless. Just 'cause you can wave a sheet of paper means jack. What matters is what that sheet of paper means to your employer.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  33. Overqualified? by AntronArgaiv · · Score: 2

    I thought the reason we were forced to resort to H1B workers was because we didn't have enough qualified applicants.

  34. Re:Does not mean they are as good as their qualifi by Whatanut · · Score: 2

    I don't entirely disagree. But I would tend to make this a more generic statement in that you get out of life the equivalent of what you put into it.

    I personally don't place much stock in university/college degrees. I'm one of those people that bypassed that system and am quite successful by simply learning what I need to excel at my job. I've met plenty of people with masters degrees and higher that couldn't think they're way out of a wet paper bag. I've also met people with lesser or no degrees that are quite brilliant.

    That's not to say that there isn't value in colleges and universities. Some people thrive in those environments and learn very well in those environments. Others learn in much different ways. A degree alone is no measure of a persons aptitude.

    --

    yvan eht nioj
  35. College used to be a place for the rich kids to go by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2

    College used to be a place for the rich kids to go (back when it first got started) with the well round stuff and others did trades / apprenticeships (learning real skills)