Skip the Picks; Expert Uses Hammer To Open a Master Lock (csoonline.com)

itwbennett writes: Buyer beware. If it's security you're looking for, the #3 Master Lock might not be for you. In a video, locksport enthusiast Bosnian Bill demonstrates how to open a new #3 Master Lock using a small brass hammer — in under 90 seconds. This video is just one of several videos he's produced focusing on defeating the security of Master Locks, and, according to Bosnian Bill, has earned him several lawsuit threats from the company.

Comments

heh

[Anonymous Coward]

technology, news for nerds, stuff that matters

"derp, you can open a lock by hitting it friggin hard with a hammer"

Yes indeed.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't tell anyone about BOLT CUTTERS

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea what a brilliant discovery... Heat (acetylene torch) works pretty well too...

Re:heh

[Coren22]

Um, this method didn't leave any kind of evidence it was done, he didn't even hit it hard with the hammer, just enough to get the lock catch to release.

Re:heh

[Sowelu]

Yeah except he's not hitting it "hard" like you're thinking. "If a hammer isn't an option, a screwdriver handle works just as well." -- it's not like he's using a sledgehammer here. This isn't an attack on the structural integrity of the lock itself, it's more unlocking it like a bump key, and you can re-lock it without leaving evidence you messed with it.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Let the slashderpsters who are so dumb they didn't even read the article pretend that they're smart. That's what they come here for, and it's all that they have.

Re:heh

[bobbied]

technology, news for nerds, stuff that matters

"derp, you can open a lock by hitting it friggin hard with a hammer"

Yes indeed.

No, he's not hitting it hard with a hammer. This approach is not about brute force, it's about applying a shock to over come a small spring that holds the pin that locks the shackle closed.

But everybody needs to realize that locks and keys only keep honest people honest anyway. There is not much you can do to stop somebody from breaking in if they really want to. About all you can hope for is to make it take long enough to break in that they get caught when they try.

Re:heh

[hawguy]

But everybody needs to realize that locks and keys only keep honest people honest anyway. There is not much you can do to stop somebody from breaking in if they really want to. About all you can hope for is to make it take long enough to break in that they get caught when they try.

Which is the point they are trying to make in the video -- if it only takes 5 seconds for a thief to pop it open, that's not much of a barrier. For bonus points, he can lock it back up when he's done so you'll never know how he got in.

Re:heh

[Tablizer]

Slashbonk: Technology news for cavemen, stuff that splatters.

1. Hacking with blunt objects
2. Encryption by smashing to pieces
3. Decryption? Make the cave-women do it!
4. Bronze vs. rocks, does it matter?
5. Will your job be outsourced to Pangaea?
6. How to tell if you are on Pangaea
8. How to get more cave-women into smashing
7. When to run from volcanoes
9. Numbering lists correctly
10. What are numbers?
11. What are lists?
12. Does it run Cavix?

Re:heh

[Locke2005]

That was pretty much my response. Why even bother with the lock when most things secured by padlock can be quite quickly unsecured by taking 3 foot long boltcutters to the hasp. Ever notice rental storage places never have any problem getting into the units that don't pay? I suspect they replace a lot of hasps, but they are pretty used to cutting locks off.

Re:heh

[Opportunist]

Not to forget the perpetual controversy: Neolithic age and why it won't come because of patents on rounded rocks.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

But everybody needs to realize that locks and keys only keep honest people honest anyway. There is not much you can do to stop somebody from breaking in if they really want to. About all you can hope for is to make it take long enough to break in that they get caught when they try.

That's completely false. An honest person wouldn't steal someone else's stuff, whether it's locked up or not. A lock is a basic form of security that only keeps someone whose dishonesty is only being kept in check by having to expend any effort at all.

It's all on a spectrum. If someone is totally honest, no locks are required. If someone is slightly dishonest, they might decide that defeating the lock isn't worth the effort or the reward, so the lock protects the thing. If someone is hell bent on defeating the lock for whatever reason, then they'll do it, or work as hard as possible to do it.

But to say that locks are only good to protect your stuff from honest people (who, if they were honest, wouldn't steal it anyway) is ludicrous.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

But if you wanted to unlock something, steal or copy what is inside and lock it back up delaying or hiding that you stole something...

NO brute force method will do that

Re:heh

[Darinbob]

Also easier to hide the hammer when you're trying to look inconspicuous.

Re:heh

[Hussman32]

I think the concern is you can open the lock without any physical damage, get what you want, and close the lock (they didn't demonstrate that on the video, but it looks like it's fine). They barely tapped the lock with the hammer, and you could do it with any small weighted object. Much less obvious than bolt cutters.

Re:heh

[The New Guy 2.0]

Security is "stuff that matters". Information security requires some level of physical security.

Re: heh

[corychristison]

I used to apprentice for a local locksmith company.

The Masterlock #-series locks are sheer pin locks. That is, in order to set the pins, you literally insert the key you want it keyed to, and sheer the pins off to the lengths that match the cuts in the key. This makes them really easy to pick already, I've gotten into one with a small paperclip, so I wouldn't even recommend them for minor things like keeping the kids out of your wifes box of dildos. They can be convenient only in a situation where you need lots of them fast (I had it down to ~20 seconds per lock).

As mentioned in the article, American Padlock (owned by MasterLock), Abus (I really like these personally), or even Guard brand padlocks are a safer bet.

The American and Abus padlocks can have the cylinder removed and recoded easily (as long as you have a key), saving you from buying a whole new lock if you simply want to keep one keyholder out for whatever reason.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

I think we all have an interest in number 8 though.

Re:heh

[bobbied]

You do realize that the saying "keeping honest people honest" is a common idiom, I didn't invent it.

This idiom is contradictory on it's face but it illustrates a truth about people and the human condition, nobody is perfect. You can obtain a large amount of compliance by placing even token limits on behavior. It's why we paint lines on roads, put locks on doors, label doors "Entry Only" (when by law they must function as an exit) and put DNS filters on company networks to keep NSFW surfing down. We encourage generally honest people to stay on the straight and narrow by offering even token amounts of effort to step over into "dishonest" behavior. None of my examples are any more than tokens and all are easily circumvented with little effort and serve to encourage imperfect people to do the right things because most of us actually have a conscience that we listen to and it screams loudly when it take effort to do wrong.

So, really, NOBODY is totally honest, but keeping the majority of people from being dishonest doesn't usually take much.... Which if you think about the idiom, is a clever illustration of the concept, even if it has logical consistency issues because none of us are perfect..

Re: heh

[bestweasel]

I like no. 7

13. Sharp animals: fight or flight?
14. Green energy: harnessing mammoth power for the home.
15. Fire: friend or foe?
16. Data processing: finding the right pebbles.
17. Chief Technical Shaman says, "Two horsepower is enough for anyone".
18. Politics: Will the sacrifice of Ug the Creator of the Wheel stop the Gods being angry with us?
19. Weapons: devastating pointy stick technology unveiled.
20. Wearable technology: carry many things with the revolutionary "bag".

Re: heh

[jxander]

Just FYI, it wasn't a hard hit.

He steadily tapped the side while applying pressure towards opening it. The repeated hits caused the mechanism to rattle loose and the lock opened.

Unsure if the lock could be closed again to disguise the break-in

Re:heh

[mysidia]

But everybody needs to realize that locks and keys only keep honest people honest anyway.

I would say the purpose of locks is to persuade Lazy people to go pick another target. Honest people shouldn't steal anything, even if it were left unlocked, although the lock might also dissuade some people from taking up crime at an early age, or "borrowing" something without permission, since now they would be forced to commit a definite crime or a more severe offense.

Re:heh

[bobbied]

Locks mealy reduce temptation by putting a token obstacle in the way. Most of us have a working conscience that will prevent us from doing wrong, however many of us are subject to temptation as well. Putting even an easily bypassed obstacle in the way does three things. First, it causes the prospective criminal to have to make some extra effort, even if it's token, to actually commit the crime. Second, it induces a delay, again even if token, which allows extra time for the conscience to work. It also provides a sense that "getting caught" is more likely because it will take longer or leave evidence of tampering. In short they deter most people who generally want to do right, but provide little protection from folks who don't care.

The sad fact is we are all really criminals in the making. We all will naturally drift towards bad behavior unless some corrective force exists. Fear of being caught, guilt at doing wrong or some internal moral imperative are all that keep us off the path of self destruction. It's why kids need parents, and why the role of parents is to discipline children to shape their consciences and install moral values, to hopefully keep them off the self destructive path as adults.

Re: heh

[mysidia]

The Masterlock #-series locks are sheer pin locks. That is, in order to set the pins, you literally insert the key you want it keyed to, and sheer the pins off to the lengths that match the cuts in the key.

Basically, this is identical to all pin tumbler locks....

Well, it's immaterial whether the manufacturer chose to use different size pins as replaceable parts, or whether they chose to cut the key pins to the same length when keying. It would be generally better if they would thread their pin chambers, use ASSA-style high-security pins, get the slop out of their pin chambers (tighter tolerance), and tighten up keyways closer to European lock tolerances, so attackers cannot get a rake or paperclip in there.

I understand the typical Masterlocks are considered easy to pick, because they have really really sloppy manufacturing tolerances, also their locks have only 4-pins, where you'd really prefer to see at least 6-pins, they don't consistently use High-Low High-Low key patterns to deter pick access, they generally provide too much extra space in their keyways for ne'erdowells to easily access with a pick.

Anyways, if I wanted a secure padlock.... I would consider ones such as Trioving 5652R, Abloy PL342, Abus disc detainer models, or at least an American Locks lock (After modd'ing to disable the bypass punch).

Better install with the lock a protective cover over any hasp (if applicable)

Don't bother with a >$50 lock; if it's just securing a weak chain, or if the actual item costs not much more than the lock.

Re:heh

[Intron]

But if you wanted to unlock something, steal or copy what is inside and lock it back up delaying or hiding that you stole something...

NO brute force method will do that

Which happens about 1 in a million times people are breaking into something.

Re:heh

[ripvlan]

I've watched a lot of his videos over the years - great entertainment. He makes a lot of bold statements about lock companies to stay away from - seems almost libelous.

But when is YouTube going to sue him for stealing their logo? Lock Tube down to the color and shape of the logo. :-)

Seriously - his videos are a lot of fun to watch.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

So... You mean there IS a chance.... Yes!!!!

Re: heh

[Z00L00K]

Even put up the layer to use disc type cylinders like Abloy have instead of pin type cylinders. Still pickable, but only with a special tool and a lot more time.

Honestly seeing the Master locks makes me wonder what they are supposed to protect - child toys?

Re:heh

[Z00L00K]

It's a hardware hack, and even nerds needs locks - sometimes more than others due to more expensive toys.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Bolt cutters will break before they will cut through a good lock.

The most surefire way to open any keyed lock is to jam a screwdriver or chisel into the keyhole and hammer it until the tumbler cracks.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

They barely tapped the lock with the hammer, and you could do it with any small weighted object.

I suspect this could be further optimized with some kind of electromagnetic based actuator and some kind of trivial circuit... Of course, whether or not you could make the result look like a sonic screwdriver is another matter...

Re:heh

[John.Banister]

I disagree. You can hope for more. You can stop someone from breaking in, even if they really want to, if your available resources are significantly greater than theirs.

Re:heh

[greenfruitsalad]

i once had a bum sadly asking me for a snickers bar he saw in my car because he thought i looked too nice to have a car broken into. i didn't know whether to appreciate the sentiment or be alarmed. i just stood there confused.

i guess that's an example of a barrier that kept an honest person honest... to this day, i'm still confused about that encounter.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

I also was a locksmith apprentice.

For common padlocks, I grew to appreciate American padlocks, were easily rekeyable, and had ball bearing locking, which meant those locks were not getting shimmed. For picking, they used serrated pins, which stopped bumping and casual raking in their tracks. It took an expert to find the false sets and open the lock. To boot, the locks even had a spot for a sixth pin, so I could have decent security. I used the sixth pin for the master pin because virtually all American padlocks used the five pin, and the keys were too short to impression the pin in the far back.

This is opinion here, so take it for what you will:

Master locks are cheap and look secure. They are good at marking boundaries, and provide OK security for the price point. However, you get what you pay for. The bad thing is when a lock can be removed and replaced without damage. The problem here is that if someone picks a lock and steals something, insurance won't cover it. If the lock is gone, or busted off, there is a physical signature left behind. For more than just a visual deterrent, I recommend another brand.

For real security, it depends on the task:

If you want a lock for the locker, the minimum would be an American lock, a series 5200 keyed to six pins. Due to the small shackle diameter which can fit, there isn't much you can do for security, other than maybe a shrouded series 5300. Ideally, you want an Abloy PL321. Yes, it can be cut off, but $35 gets you one with an Abloy PROTEC cylinder... and those are not going to get picked in a reasonable amount of time.

For security where shackle clearance isn't an issue, Abus and Abloy are good. In Europe, they have something called "Sold Secure", and a special rating for locks to be cleared by insurance companies. Buy a Sold Secure Gold, which not just is advertised as secure, but has resisted hand tools and picking for a good amount of time. Here in the US, there is absolutely jack shit for security standards outside of GSA purchases, so use the European ones.

On the cheap, for padlocks, I'd look at Sobo. They use an Assa-Abloy basic disc detainer mechanism, and ball bearing locking. You can tell they are not made as well... but they are a step above Master locks in security.

Don't like Abloy's disc detainer? Mul-T-Lock, and the Aussie BiLock are good standbys. I have had a Mul-T-Lock C-series withstand an extreme attempt to cut it off, and Mul-T-Lock offers some interesting lock options (the three way self-rekeying, a key for locking, another for unlocking, etc.) I liked using that option for rental properties, since the workmen could get a green key, when done, the tenant's yellow key locked out the green key... and once the tenants were out, the red key locked out the former tenant's key, as well as the workmen key... then I'd rekey the locks back to green for the next tenant and work done.

Lock for the door? Again, hard to beat Abloy for deadbolts.

I hate sounding like a shill for Assa-Abloy, the Borg of the lock companies... but in general, they put out decent stuff, be it HID badge readers, Medeco/Abloy/Assa, or Kaba-Mas safe locks which are rated as not sucking.

Oh, as for bike locks, oddly enough, Kryptonite has earned its bones here. I used to work at a college campus, and seen all kinds of bike theft. The midrange to upper Kryptonite locks did a good job at ensuring a bike will be there... and they were reasonably priced. Of course, Abus makes top notch stuff as well.

tl;dr... you get what you pay for. Master locks provide adequate security for the price they are sold at, and not everyone can afford an Abloy PROTEC2 + CLIQ cylinder on every padlock and door... but realistically, a padlock has a very long life, so it is better to buy something decent once and have peace of mind that the latest picking/rapping/bumping videos on the Internet are not going to affect your security.

Re:heh

[dotancohen]

i once had a bum sadly asking me for a snickers bar he saw in my car because he thought i looked too nice to have a car broken into. i didn't know whether to appreciate the sentiment or be alarmed. i just stood there confused.

i guess that's an example of a barrier that kept an honest person honest... to this day, i'm still confused about that encounter.

You have left us in complete suspense. Did you give him the Snickers bar?

Re:heh

[KGIII]

Don't quote me on this but I think the tumblers, in good locks, are made of brass? If so, I don't know how much good a magnet is going to be.

Re: heh

[KGIII]

I had a friend whose father owned a locksmithing company, this was back in the 1970s. I don't think it was one that you could pick up at a hardware store so much as one would have to order it from a catalog (something we did back then) but I seem to recall there was a Masterlock series in particular that he absolutely hated having to remove if they had lost their keys. They were neigh on impossible to remove without doing damage and not pick-proof (I kind of doubt any tumbler locks were pick proof back then) entirely but damned difficult to get open because of the depth of the tumblers and force required, or so I understood it. He's long since passed away and gone to where locksmiths go when they die (presumably the ground). We used to visit and practice picking locks back in the day. I was never really that good at it but I could get a few open including handcuffs of two different varieties.

Re:heh

[shortscruffydave]

you could do it with any small weighted object

Use of a non-manufacturer-approved hammer could void your warranty

Re: heh

[kimvette]

> so I wouldn't even recommend them for minor things like keeping the kids out of your wifes box of dildos. They can be convenient only in a situation where you need lots of them fast (I had it down to ~20 seconds per lock).

In what situation would you need to get your hands on boxes of dildos? Wouldn't one or two suffice? ;)

Re:heh

[bobbied]

You can only delay a determined attacker's entry, you cannot stop it with any lock.

Real security requires multiple layers and techniques. Yea, you need good locks that are hard to finesse open, containers which are difficult to breach when locked, but you also need to provide surveillance which is regularly monitored using things like motion detectors, video cameras, actual guards walking by, in order to catch attackers before they can breach the container. Thus, you will find that safes are classified by how long it takes to brute force them open by a knowledgeable attacker and are routinely tested by digging out the drills, hammers, torches and stethoscopes to make sure they meet standards..

Re:heh

[Chas]

Bull.

Sure, a SMALL set (24") bolt croppers might ward off. But the large bolt croppers bring a lot (and I mean a LOT) more force to the equation. They can clip through even shielded shackles where the case AND shackle are hardened steel or boron carbide.

Most locks simply don't have a large (thick) enough shackle to prevent this kind of cropping. Even ultra-high-end D-locks can be cropped in this manner.

Also, cracking a lock tumbler with a screwdriver USED to work well. Now, a majority of decent locks have the actual lock mechanism itself shielded so simply knifing it open with a screwdriver and hammer doesn't work, as you crush the lock assembly in a locked configuration.

Re:heh

[Chas]

Agreed. All you can do is slow an attacker down.

In terms of locking something like a bicycle, you do this through intelligent placement of the thing you don't wish stolen, intelligent placement of chains (not cables), intelligent placement of locks, and use of multiple locking mechanisms.
All of these cost an attacker time. And if you cost them TOO much time, they're likely to move on to easier pickings.

Re: heh

[corychristison]

A lot of great info in parent post.

I was short on time, and didn't want to get too in depth.

I grew very fond of the American series padlocks as well. Easy to recode, and, as you mentioned, use the extra pin for extra resistance to picking. Not too much 'slop' in the cyl or chambers, very configurable, 3 difference shackle lengths and girth, removable cylinder, a few drop in cylinder replacements for different keyways. Very useful.

I like the Abus padlocks for all the same reasons as I liked the American padlock, but the body is much lighter (made of a unique Aluminum alloy) and they came in a much wider array of colours (useful on work sites where you need different colours for different things).

My favourite thing about these types of padlocks (American, and Abus) is the ability to set up a master/working key system on them. Yes, they are tiny little pins and sometimes a pain to set up, but the usefulness outweighs the hassle.

Re: heh

[corychristison]

I was in a bit of a rush to finish up my comment, and forgot to expand on why the sheer-pin is a problem.

The pins are straight. They are not anti-pick pins. For those who dont know, anti-pick pins are not smooth on the sides. When you apply pressure against them with your turning tool, it locks up, you have a much more difficult time moving the pins up and down while trying to pick them.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

> so I wouldn't even recommend them for minor things like keeping the kids out of your wifes box of dildos. They can be convenient only in a situation where you need lots of them fast (I had it down to ~20 seconds per lock).

In what situation would you need to get your hands on boxes of dildos? Wouldn't one or two suffice? ;)

Variety is the spice of life.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Mate, you are just projecting.

Not everyone is a dishonest criminal just waiting to spring like you.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, a SMALL set (24") bolt croppers might ward off. But the large bolt croppers bring a lot (and I mean a LOT) more force to the equation. They can clip through even shielded shackles where the case AND shackle are hardened steel or boron carbide.

You don't have even the foggiest clue as to what you are talking about. Go try to cut a Kryptonite New York Fahgettaboudit or Disc Lock with your bolt croppers.

I await your report of complete and utter failure.

Re:heh

[Chas]

Disk lock huh?

https://youtu.be/usnksHYlUbY

How about just melting one open?

https://youtu.be/b1h1qWbjggk

As for the NY locks. Why crop the lock when the chain is smaller and more vulnerable?

https://youtu.be/6AdugFzCi24?t...

As for other other high end U-Locks, I've seen even really expensive Abus U-locks cropped. They take a LOT longer and a lot of force. But I've SEEN them cropped.

And, when all else fails, there's the angle grinder.

So much for my "foggiest clue".

And I see why you posted AC. Not enough spine to post as yourself when you're being a little prick eh?

Re:heh

[ChrisMaple]

Ever tried driving on a 6-lane highway that hasn't been painted? It's not easy to stay in lanes that aren't marked. A lineless 6-lane road is good for 4 lanes of traffic.

Re:heh

[John.Banister]

When I said "If your resources are significantly greater than theirs," I was including brainpower. I am certain that a knowledgeable, skillful attacker can break in to lots of places, but the great majority of people who try to rob residences don't have a lot of knowledge or skill, and are often distracted by a nagging lack of drugs. I can stop a determined attacker's entry with an inexpensive lock if that person is really determined but has an IQ of 45. However, you may notice that when I said "you can stop someone from breaking in," I did not say "by only using only a lock." When I think of decently good security, I think of a US Embassy in a less than friendly country. It's possible to attack them successfully, but it takes a fairly significant amount of resources. I could say "I could build a 40"x24"x200' steel reinforced concrete wall in my yard to stop people from bypassing my lock by driving their vehicle through the wall of my house." And, you could reply "a determined attacker with a Sherman tank will laugh at your barrier and punch into your house anyways." You'd be correct, but people with access to that equipment seldom use it for petty theft. The same is true of brain power. I don't have the opinion that purchasing a really cool lock will solve one's security problems, but I also do believe that the people most likely to attempt to steal from a residence aren't skillful, determined master thieves. I think that telling people to just expect that malicious, dishonest people will win in matters of security is an improper representation of reality. Making the effort to include attention to security when making decisions is beneficial in a statistically significant number of cases because the majority of criminals smart enough to defeat thoughtful security are also smart enough to target situations where the security is lax in relation to the prize.

Re: heh

[mysidia]

Still pickable, but only with a special tool and a lot more time.

Not pickable by mortals, and I see no report of anyone ever successfully picking one without knowing the combination before they started; in a practical sense, the way to attack is going to be violent entry. The rotary picking tool is only of practical use on weak disc detainers and counterfeit chinese versions of the high-security ones that you could probably force open anyways.

(Yeah, these are expensive enough that there have been counterfeits going around.)

On the real ones, the 11 disks are robust, each disk has multiple false gates, and there's no way to know if a particular disk is in a false gate. You're literally talking about brute forcing millions of combinations at that point

There was at one point a dumb weakness, where the company stamped numbers on their disks, and it was possible to use an impressioning technique to work out which number was stamped on the disk ---- but they fixed that long ago.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Disk lock huh?

https://youtu.be/usnksHYlUbY [youtu.be]

That video doesn't even show a Kryptonite Disc Lock. Nice try at deception though.

How about just melting one open?

https://youtu.be/b1h1qWbjggk [youtu.be]

Again, that video does not show a Kryptonite Disc Lock. Lie #2 uncovered.

As for the NY locks. Why crop the lock when the chain is smaller and more vulnerable?

https://youtu.be/6AdugFzCi24?t... [youtu.be]

Did they cut the lock? Move many goalposts?

As for other other high end U-Locks, I've seen even really expensive Abus U-locks cropped. They take a LOT longer and a lot of force. But I've SEEN them cropped.

Then you'll have no problem showing me a bolt cutter getting through a Kryptonite New York lock, right?

And, when all else fails, there's the angle grinder.

An angle grinder isn't a bolt cutter. Goalpost moving #2.

So much for my "foggiest clue".

You're delusional. Your OWN responses destroyed your credibility even more than I did.

Re:heh

[The-Ixian]

Yes, this happens every winter in Minnesota...

8 lane highways reduced to basically 2 or 4 lanes because everyone is following the tire tracks of the person ahead of them.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

In what situation would you need to get your hands on boxes of dildos? Wouldn't one or two suffice? ;)

Well, clearly there are parts of the internet which you have yet to explore...

- T

Re:heh

[beastofburdon]

Brass still conducts electricity, so it creates its own magnetic field in reaction to a changing magnetic field. This certainly has a high probability of working. The only issue is how large of a battery would it need, which I am unsure of.

I'd be more worried about bump-key or bolt-cutters

[Anonymous Coward]

Hammering on the lock makes too much noise. Bolt cutters are relatively quiet. Also, lots of locks can be bump-keyed. Google it.

Given the task of breaking in late at night, I'd go with the bolt cutters since I know shit about picking and have no practice. That's not to say that Master locks are good or bad; but come on', get real. Picking is for the movies. Thieves just break shit and/or point a gun at you.

Lawsuits?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the cheaper and more effective solution would be to make better locks.

Re:Lawsuits?

[cheater512]

That's difficult though. It's a lot easier to go to your lawyers and order them to make it go away.

Re:Lawsuits?

[hawguy]

No, the cheaper and more effective solution would be to simply say "well no shit the lock eventually broke if you hit it enough times with a hammer. Even safes can never be completely 100% impenetrable."

but the lock didn't break -- it unlocked, so he can steal your stuff, put the lock back on, and when the security guard checks on it an hour later, he'll confirm that it's still securely locked and you won't know for days or weeks that your stuff was stolen.

Re:Lawsuits?

[jonwil]

Its not just hammers, this guy has shown how to get into these licks with a plastic zip tie and all sorts of other things that it shouldn't ever be possible to open a lock with.

Master Lock makes junk locks and anyone who uses one for anything important is an idiot.

Re: Lawsuits?

[Anonymous Coward]

The cheaper method is apparently to sick the lawyers on anyone who points out a corporate product that fails at it's marketed purpose.

This corporate entitlement needs to end.

Re:Lawsuits?

[bobbied]

Actually this technique does not damage the lock. It's more of a finesse technique, where you bump the lock in the correct way to overcome the force of a small internal spring to push the shackle locking pin out of the way so you can slide it open.

So, the AC is right, better lock designs might be a good idea.... But, alas it's a fool that thinks a $10 padlock is going to afford you much security. It's really only going to keep honest folk honest because they are too easy to brute force with bolt cutters, bump keys, lock picking tools etc...

Re:Lawsuits?

[dpidcoe]

Watch the video. He taps it rapidly about 10 times on the side with a tiny hammer to jiggle the internals and it just pops open in less than 5 seconds.

Re:Lawsuits?

[Z00L00K]

I agree, the lawsuits only makes Master Locks look stupid while serious lock manufacturers actually learns from how the locks are picked and make better locks the next generation.

Meanwhile the Abloy disc lock that's very hard to pick still is available over the counter in a model with keys almost identical to the keys that were available in 1907. They have improved versions as well today that are considered to be very hard to pick.

Personally I'm only considering the locks from Abloy, ABUS Granit Series or Anchor.

Re:Lawsuits?

[Chas]

Thing is, there's a readily available tool for picking disk locks nowadays.

Re:Lawsuits?

[Z00L00K]

Even with such a tool the latest versions of those locks like the Abloy Protec2 it will take some time to pick them, and you need to get the tool.

It's a question of delaying the criminals and if it's complicated enough then they go for an easier target or go for the more violent version.

Re:I'd be more worried about bump-key or bolt-cutt

[paulej72]

But I could probably do the hammer thing with a rock I pick up near the location I want to enter, rather than carry a pair of bolt cutters with me.

macgyver

[Joe_Dragon]

macgyver

Abus

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get an Abus.

Re:Abus

[Z00L00K]

Only the ABUS Granit series is good enough though, even if even the 37RK/80 only scores a 4 out of 5 in the SBSC security rating for locks. Also look at the Abloy and Anchor locks.

90 seconds? No, a lot less

[wonkey_monkey]

how to open a new #3 Master Lock using a small brass hammer — in under 90 seconds.

The entire video is 72 seconds long. The actual defeating of the lock takes a grand total of five seconds.

So yeah, technically that is under 90 seconds. But you're really understating it.

Re:90 seconds? No, a lot less

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the statement is fair. It is a reference to how long the how-to is, not how long it takes someone who has practiced it.
For someone doing it for the first time it might take linger than 90 seconds.

Re:90 seconds? No, a lot less

[hawguy]

No, the statement is fair. It is a reference to how long the how-to is, not how long it takes someone who has practiced it.
For someone doing it for the first time it might take linger than 90 seconds.

Good thing a prospective thief can buy a few practice locks at the hardware store before he tries it for real.

Re:90 seconds? No, a lot less

[Anubis IV]

It is a reference to how long the how-to is

Perhaps, but were that the case, the "in under 90 seconds" should not have been located at the end where it is more likely to be taken as a modifier to the action being demonstrated. To convey the idea you're suggesting, the proper phrasing should have been:

In a video, locksport enthusiast Bosnian Bill demonstrates in under 90 seconds how to open a new #3 Master Lock using a small brass hammer.

As it is, the phrasing in the summary is ambiguous, but it certainly suggests that the trick itself, rather than the explanation, takes under 90 seconds. Both are true, of course, but neither is as precise as we'd like around here.

Re:90 seconds? No, a lot less

[Anonymous Coward]

Points for actually watching TFV. It's pretty obvious most here did not.

Re:90 seconds? No, a lot less

[Solandri]

To be fair, most any padlock can be defeated in 1 second with a bolt cutter. This type of lock is supposed to be used when you just want to keep curious people out, or for liability purposes (you knew an area was dangerous and used the lock to make it difficult to enter, and trespasser intentionally bypassed your attempts to protect him). If I'm trying to protect something worth a couple hundred bucks or more, I'm gonna use something more robust.

Re:90 seconds? No, a lot less

[thegarbz]

To be fair, most any padlock can be defeated in 1 second with a bolt cutter.

And the result is instant evidence that the lock was tampered with.

Re:90 seconds? No, a lot less

[Sir Holo]

To be fair, most any padlock can be defeated in 1 second with a bolt cutter.

And the result is instant evidence that the lock was tampered with.

And by whom, if you're caught with said bolt cutters. Forensic analysis and all (imaging scrape pattern).

Re:90 seconds? No, a lot less

[Anonymous Coward]

If I were really worried about the forensics, I'd just take the lock with me.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[pushing-robot]

Watch this Jedi open 17 locks with nothing but a common lightsaber!

Why Master Lock?

[wisnoskij]

I am sure all the lower end locks are just as easy to defeat.

Re:Why Master Lock?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure that is true. when I started lockpicking I got a masterlock and a few others. I couldn't put lockpicks in my Masterlock without it poping open. Literally the second the pick went in it opened, no skill involved. The other locks were a bit more tricky, and a bit cheaper as well.

Re:Why Master Lock?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bosnian Bill (and others) consider master lock a bit of a running joke in terms of market position vs product quality and take great pleasure in showing them up. If you watch a few (100) of his videos you'll get a good feel of what to look for in a cheap lock. There was a $20 Chinese disk-detainer style padlock that he spoke very highly of, and there are >$100s high security locks that he raked open in seconds (in one case because it had 2 sets of master key bitting meaning 2-3 shear lines per pin)

Re:Why Master Lock?

[Copid]

Being able to open a cheap ass lock that is used in 3 places per city is nowhere near as useful as being able to open a cheap ass lock that's used in 90% of all low security padlock installations. It's like finding an exploit in Windows 10 vs finding an exploit in OS2 Warp. Both are interesting, but one is much more practically useful.

Re:Why Master Lock?

[Moof123]

If you buy an ACME brand lock and it turns out to be crap, no surprise. When you buy one from the most recognizable name in lock brands it means there are a bajillion of crappy locks out there in the field with a pretty bad vulnerability.

Re:Why Master Lock?

[geekmux]

If you buy an ACME brand lock and it turns out to be crap, no surprise. When you buy one from the most recognizable name in lock brands it means there are a bajillion of crappy locks out there in the field with a pretty bad vulnerability.

No, what it really means is people are cheap, and "recognizable" has little to do with the fact that 99% of people will pass over that good $30 padlock in favor of the shitty $3 one. Even the lock picker has stated that Master Lock does offer some secure designs. They just cost more. A lot more.

Many vulnerabilities against this particular lock have been known for years. Consumers don't care enough to do 30 seconds of research before buying, which isn't surprising. Cheap often goes hand in hand with ignorance when it comes to security.

Re:Why Master Lock?

[klui]

Apparently Master Locks didn't used to be this bad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Guess that head of industry just wanted to have more profits so they cut corners until the insides are just "soft marshmallows."

Re: Why Master Lock?

[IBME]

Easy way to open a ushaped bike lock is with a screw jack providing of course it will fit.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't

I haven't seen any real stories about breakthroughs in biology, cybernetics, computers, or physics in quite awhile.

If anything it's like the dailymail with a mildly science bent, only it's losing the 'sciencey' part pretty rapidly.

Also, I just wish they'd have somewhere that I could get instructibles to make robots or solor generators etc. Slashdot feels like it's stalled out and stuck trying to be a news magazine instead of really embracing the full multimedia nature and possibilities of the 'net. Their one of the few with resources to expand and where expansion would be good for everyone.

Wait...they don't use nodejs webservers with a websocket, hah, nevermind they wouldn't be able to properly get anything happening with their old crusty PHP apache server.

I just said that to make their web devs cry angry blood, they hate that they haven't learned a proper webserver yet :)

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Coren22]

But, can an acetylene torch, bolt cutters, or hydrofluoric acid leave you a complete lack of evidence of tampering? He didn't smash the lock, just tapped it.

Next up

[rossdee]

How to pick a lock using a pick (as in pick and shovel)

The Marines would use a 12 ga shotgun

Re:Next up

[bobbied]

How to pick a lock using a pick (as in pick and shovel)

The Marines would use a 12 ga shotgun

Or a well placed foot can open a door, a window, even some walls..... Brute force is usually effective and quick. No real story in that. IF you really want in, there isn't much a $10 lock is going to do to stop you, only now you can open this lock, without the key, without destroying anything in 10 seconds...

Re:Next up

[dpidcoe]

Did you actually watch the video? He just rapidly taps on the side with a small hammer for about 5 seconds and it pops open. Nothing like a shotgun or mining pick involved.

Re:Next up

[geekmux]

Did you actually watch the video? He just rapidly taps on the side with a small hammer for about 5 seconds and it pops open. Nothing like a shotgun or mining pick involved.

*racks pump-action*

*BOOM!*

"And your point..."

- Every Marine ever

Re:Next up

[Anonymous Coward]

OK... a shotgun blast at a padlock on a gate happens:

Now the situation has turned into a B&E, reckless discharge of a firearm, discharging a firearm in an urban area, unlawful possession of a firearm, brandishing a firearm (can't really conceal a 12 gauge, and a sawed off means BATFE gets involved), reckless endangerment (due to shot bouncing around.) Gee, three felonies. DA files career or habitual... life in the slammer, and a nice stock bump for Corrections Corporation of America. Trust me... fire a shot in most places, the popo will come looking to see what's up, similar with other people. Even in the "stop snitchin'" areas, the residents will make sure they have not pissed off a new group of "soldiers" claiming their turf.

Contrast that to someone rapping a lock open. Unless someone was close enough to see them do it and hear the tapping, it would look like an authorized entry, and nobody would be the wiser. The lock isn't damaged, so pressing B&E can be difficult... at best it might be a trespass charge. If the person waltzing in gets caught red-handed, most people wouldn't care, and there are many excuses that can be given.

So, for stealing something out of a shed or gate... rap the lock, one gets at worst, a trespass or "Mister Meaner" larceny rap which means some probation. A night in the slammer. Contrast that to firing some rounds out of that pump action, which has a far higher chance of resulting in a long stay in prison... and because it was an armed felony, that means going to max for a long time. Yes, the shotgun is fun, but farting mayo/mustard/ketchup for 5-20 years afterwards isn't.

Re:Next up

[KGIII]

*chuckles* Have you met any Marines? I hold a Ph.D in Applied Mathematics and served in the Marines. (GI Bill. Yay!)

Now, to be honest, I'd shoot a lock but probably not with a shotgun. Even a slug may not do the job and it is not accurate enough to do at a safe distance. I'd use a rifle, I'd probably dig an AR out for it just for fun.

Re:Next up

[KGIII]

The B in "breaking" has nothing to do with "breaking" anything except the plane. Well, pretty much. That's the simplest way to think of it. If you push a door open (even if it was ajar) then you're still breaking and entering. If you pushed open a gate, you're still breaking and entering. Think of it more like breaking the plane than breaking an object. Even deception is considered breaking and entering. Lemme find you a link...

Here:
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-...

This includes one definition that is the older form (we're talking archaic almost - these laws and interpretations have changed since before I was a kid and I'm nearing 60):
http://www.yourdictionary.com/...

Some areas will vary, of course. So, if you're going to go engage in criminal acts you should contact a lawyer to ensure you're breaking the minimal number of laws. I guess, don't go breaking the law. Anyhow, I'd have figured people knew this by now but you're the second person that I noticed who remarked on this. You're still breaking and entering - just by opening the door. To do so means your hand will have likely passed the threshold/plane. So, not even entering the building might net you a breaking and entering charge. (It's usually a misdemeanor. The burglary, after that, is what's usually a felony.)

Re:Next up

[dpidcoe]

Ironically enough, the logic in your initial post can be used to invalidate whatever argument you're trying to make here. Subtlety isn't really high on the list of things associated with marines; so yes, I would expect a marine performing a legal and aboveboard entry to a building with multiple marines stacked up behind him ready to open fire on whoever is inside to simply shoot the lock off. Much in the same way that I would expect repeatedly bashing a lock with a sledgehammer to open it. But that's loud and obvious B&E is not what we're talking about. I would not expect someone trying to quietly steal a bike to shoot the lock off. It's loud, it's kind of hard to hide a shotgun (especially while riding a stolen bike), and it's really hard to maintain plausible deniability if you're noticed by the authorities. On the other hand, carrying a medium sized screwdriver with which to tap a lock open is significantly easier to carry, conceal, and explain.

Re:Next up

[ffsnjb]

For your door breaching pleasure... The KAC Masterkey

Re:Next up

[KGIII]

Oh, I'm familiar with that - I was limiting my imagination to just a lock. There's a bunch of fun ways to get a door open, very few of which involve finesse. I do not believe we had, at least I don't recall seeing any, those while I was active duty. I have seen them in film footage and read about them. I'd be lying if I said I did not want to play with one.

books work too

[Skewray]

When I was in high school (40 years ago), I had a classmate with the colorful name of Print that could pop open Masterlocks with a textbook.

Re:books work too

[stooo]

That's a Textbook unlocking.

Locks only keep out honest people

[mark0]

Subject says it all.

Re:Locks only keep out honest people

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice dichotomy there, how does that work for you in the long term?

something important seems to be missing from your

[Tsolias]

I guess the term "expert" doesn't mean what I thought it meant. We were breaking locks from our bikes' chains, that we lost the keys, like that when we were 10 or 12. I guess with all the facebook and apple users nowadays, the standards have lowered.

Re:WTF

[hawguy]

Doesn't totally twatting the fuck out of the lock leave the bolt(s) still engaged?

Oh hang on, it's a padlock. Where not only the body of the lock, but the actual bit that links to the door is completely exposed.

Try this one neat trick with an angle grinder!

An angle grinder makes a lot more noise, is harder to keep in a pocket, and prevents you from locking it back up again to hide your tracks.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[painandgreed]

You can use more than just a hammer. How about an acetylene torch? Bolt Cutters? Hydrofluoric acid? Typical "if all you have is a hammer" tunnel vision. I expect more from you, Slashdot!

True, but with this method, or lock picking, I can gain access to whatever it is that is locked up, remove what I want, and then replace the lock with no visible evidence of entrance. The noise is minimal, the technique and tools pretty trivial, so that at any opportunity, someone who wanted to could gain entrance and leave without leaving obvious clues. If you had a job box, tool shed, or building locked up with one of these, they could easily gain entrance, and remove something, possibly leaving the owner no idea it had been stolen. Locks still there, key still works, perhaps they'll think they put it someplace else and spend days if not weeks looking for it before realizing it's actually missing. Even then they might not be sure it was stolen. If there was more items that could be taken in one trip, they could even come back later.

That being said, unless you're investigated by spooks, any old lock will probably work. Most doors won't stand up to a couple of solid kicks if a credit card won't work, and the best NYC bike messenger lock would last about as long to power tools or a farm jack.

I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[JMZero]

This isn't like "oh, I can eventually break this lock by smashing it", it's "this lock opens if you tap it in the right place". It takes seconds, and requires nothing in the way of fancy technique or specialized tools.

Yes, we all get it, any lock can be defeated - but this isn't the right story to use that stock comment on. This isn't someone smashing a small lock with a big hammer - this is someone demonstrating how defective a particular lock is, and it makes for an entertaining little video.

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[Anonymous Coward]

I still don't give a shit, it's not a computer

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[Hognoxious]

It takes seconds after hours of practice and years of experience.

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[honestmonkey]

I'm guessing it's more like 90%. "Duh, you can smash a lock, doy doy doy!" Not what this was about at all. Even one of the comments on yours was something about needed a lot of practice, which with this technique you don't. Put some tension on the lock tap it on the side. I suppose that the headline was not nuanced enough. "Skip the picks, just tap the lock on the side".

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[MSG]

Did you watch the video, or are you one of the "80%" who didn't?

You don't need practice to lightly tap a lock on its side for 5-10 seconds. There's no technique to practice. It's light tension and tapping.

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[rmdingler]

I still don't give a shit, it's not a computer

AHhhh... relevance, right?? Right on.

Although, maybe, a Masterlock somewhere is being used to secure access to a computer or server.

Or someone with a computer or server has something, somewhere secured with a pop-a-lock.

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[Noah Haders]

a moment to learn, a lifetime to master...

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but can you easily defeat the (unspecified number of) automatic (not semi-automatic) shotguns aimed at you if you open the door when each is triggered by a different method, and you don't know that they are there in the first place until they have literally blown you to bloody bits? What about the other deadly traps behind the shotguns?

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[brunes69]

I can get into any padlock on planet earth with a pair of $20 bolt cutters, so who cares?

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[Z00L00K]

I want you to try the ABLOY PL362 with a $20 bolt cutter. Make a YouTube video and post the result.

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm trying it on a number 3 master lock. 5 minutes of tapping, it's still locked.

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[brunes69]

And in that case, you would simply use the bolt cutters on the door shackle the lock is attached to, which are likely very thin steel. Or you simply use your $10 crow bar to rip the door right off the door jamb.

Anyone who thinks padlocks protect anything have rocks in their head.

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[Hognoxious]

Watch the video? That would be almost as bad as reading the article.

You've probably forgotten the old TV sets that wouldn't work until you thumped them? Thing was, you had to thump them with just the right amount of force in just the right place.

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[macs4all]

I want you to try the ABLOY PL362 with a $20 bolt cutter. Make a YouTube video and post the result.

I don't think you can seriously compare a $10 Master Lock with a $250 Abloy. The Abloy BETTER had be better.

Re:I'm confident 80% of posters didn't watch video

[Reziac]

This explains how I've had a few incidents where a lock came open unexpectedly -- under tension and being knocked around and ...whoops.

STOP

[Anonymous Coward]

Hammer time!

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Anonymous Coward]

To their credit, Masterlock Magnum's are a bit tougher to cut. If somebody wants in bad enough, they're going to get in though.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt they'll be able to post at all when milk is pouring out their nose all over the keyboard as they read your criticism that nodeJS is a "real server" as compared with php/apache.

Re:I'd be more worried about bump-key or bolt-cutt

[bobbied]

Locks are just there to keep honest people honest anyway. If somebody wants to get in, there is not much you can really do to stop them, especially with a sub $10 padlock. They can brut force (bolt cutters, drill, heat, crowbar etc) or finesse it open (bump key, pick, or what this guy does) and get in, you cannot stop that.

All you can really do is to slow them down by making things difficult enough it takes a long time to break in (Drill the safe, dig though the wall of the vault, or what have you) and provide enough regular surveillance that you will catch them before they get inside. You cannot stop them from trying.

Re: I'd be more worried about bump-key or bolt-cut

[bigtomrodney]

A set of shims would be nice, quiet, cheap AND fast.

Not news

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not news. In the 70's it was routine to have 100's of these broken off lockers with a simple hammer. You can use a tiny one and hit it 10 times, or use a larger one and hit it once. Net effect is the same: a couple kids can down a thousand lockers in a hour. Same cheap lock shown here. Combo version also opens with slight tension on shackle and careful rotation of the lock. In Jr. High it was a contest to race to open the other guy's combo locker. /shrug

Standard padlocks and combo locks

[LessThanObvious]

Basically every pad lock or combo lock with a U shaped shackle is pretty easy to defeat from what I've seen. On at least three occasions I've removed locks with only what I happened to have at hand when I needed to remove the lock. Two steel rods that comprise part of my old Honda's tire change kit stuffed through the shackle and used in a scissor motion did a nice job of applying enough force. Most of the time if it was that hard to defeat the lock it wouldn't be that hard to break whatever apparatus to which the lock is attached. There are secure lock setups of course, but they tend to be bulky and more expensive. Most of the time locks are just an example of how the honor system works better with a modest deterrent.

Re:Standard padlocks and combo locks

[Prune]

Cheap padlocks, sure, but if you get a high-end padlock from manufacturers known for high performance (e.g. Abloy), you'll find these workarounds don't work, and you need to cut it with a torch or destroy it with a shaped charge (good padlocks have the shackle shielded so depending on how it's positioned, you can't always get at it with a large enough bolt cutter that can handle a very hard alloy). And trying to pick an Abloy Protec is a waste of time -- a few experts with special tools (not regular lock picks) and a couple of hours to spare can do it -- maybe.

Re:Standard padlocks and combo locks

[Chas]

Yep. Specialized tools.

1: Needle nose pliers
2: Hammer
3: Bolt

https://youtu.be/4tc8LJiBuOc

Re:Standard padlocks and combo locks

[Prune]

That's a cool trick, but it won't work on their higher end locks like Protec and Protec2. Also, it will only work on locks installed in knobs where there is sufficient room behind the lock for the internals to be pushed out into. I submit that's going to be a rare occurrence.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hydrofluoric acid sounds cleaver in theory but is a great way to accidentally kill oneself "in real life".
Breaking bad used HFL as a red herring. It was intended to be misleading.

Re: Coren22: Tell us about "Bolting on 'MoAr'", lo

[Anonymous Coward]

So you lame host guy, do you not have a firewall? I bet it is running bind. Use what you have, especially if it was designed for that purpose.

I also find that all the malware hosts out there don't matter much if you don't let them execute javascript or (cringe) activex.

Re:I'd be more worried about bump-key or bolt-cutt

[towermac]

Yer right; walking around with bolt cutters is like a neon sign that says I'm a thief.

I guess you could hide it under a trenchcoat. Which would be totally low profile.

A lot of comments about bashing the lock...

[Marful]

... it's quite evident that not many posters actually watched the video.

The lock isn't being smashed, bashed, smacked or slammed. It's being gently tapped with a brass hammer.

So mentioning bolt cutters, sledge hammers and acetylene torches is about as pertinent as launching into a diatribe about how Mandarin is a hard language to learn, with all of it's tonal inflections, when the discussion topic is about programming languages...

Re:A lot of comments about bashing the lock...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mandarin is a hard language to learn, much harder than php, for example.

Re:A lot of comments about bashing the lock...

[Z00L00K]

I have actually watched a lot of videos by bosnianbill and I'm not even remotely surprised by the outcome of this.

Cheap locks are weak, expensive locks may result in delaying the intruders enough to make it inconvenient to make entry and pick easier alternatives. If they really want to break in then they don't care about a lock anymore but take down the wall instead.

I have concluded that the weakest lock to be considered are the ABUS Granit series of locks, and that the alternatives are Abloy and Anchor.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I expect more from you, Slashdot!"

Ummm... sorry to disappoint but... You really shouldn't. Slashdot has been shit for YEARS. Only expect it to suck more as time goes on.

Who would have thought it can be right?

[Opportunist]

You know the old saying "when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"?

Who'd have thought it can be right...

Re: Coren22: Tell us about "Bolting on 'MoAr'", lo

[Anonymous Coward]

Aspie Punk Kid give it a rest lad, the ladies aren't impressed and you're scaring the children.

Lawsuits?

[Lord Duran]

These guys really have some nerve. You'd think the least they would do is try to avoid the courtroom.

Defective by design...

[Anonymous Coward]

Such lawsuits will only raise awareness that their locks are total garbage, and only for show. Pin tumbler locks are fundamentally worthless, and easily opened by any novice with desire to do so. That isn't security, and it certainly isn't comforting to know that anyone can purchase a few bump keys for like $10 that will open the majority of home locks.

As another poster suggests, they ought to design better locks instead of funding lawsuits. If they had any sense, rather than attempting to hide the problem, they would recognize it as an opportunity to sell more and better locks. Disc tumbler locks (for example) are fundamentally impervious to bumping, and not only have they been around for almost a century, they are far more secure and reliable. Any proper lock will require it to be destroyed to get it open in a reasonable timeframe, and that also leaves evidence of a breach.

Re:Defective by design...

[ledow]

A lock is only as strong as the weakest link.

And there's not much that a pair of boltcutter's won't go through in seconds. Whether that's the lasp, the hasp, or some other part of the door.

A lock's purpose is not to stop it being opened EVER, it's to stop it being opened by a opportunist with equipment that he can find laying nearby. You can do super-cheap locks with nothing more than a small screwdriver as leverage.

Everything else is purely within the realm of whatever it is locking being weaker anyway.

Re:Defective by design...

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent post doesn't suggest otherwise. The point is that a pin tumbler cylinder isn't just a weak point, it is offers zero security and makes any lock into a toy. That toy may keep a small child out, but anyone with intent can bypass it without even leaving a trace. The majority of deadbolts protecting homes offer zero security against intrusion, and the lack of damage also makes it possible to unknowingly walk in on an armed intruder, when you would rather be contacting the police from a safe distance.

Re:I'd be more worried about bump-key or bolt-cutt

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you could hide it under a trenchcoat. Which would be totally low profile.

Only if you're not a detective in the 1930's.

Designed to be difficult to pick

[ebonum]

This a new lock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

It's on kickstarter now:
https://www.kickstarter.com/pr...

You'd think Master Lock with all their cash would come up with clever ideas like this lock's mechanism.

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[The New Guy 2.0]

Master is protected by expired patents.... they try to threaten out people who are like them, they don't have anything good to offer anymore.

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, garbage. We've got better locks than that now that utilize pins in a disc instead of ridges on a key. You can't bump them, you can't pick them.

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[Princeofcups]

This a new lock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

It's on kickstarter now:
https://www.kickstarter.com/pr...

You'd think Master Lock with all their cash would come up with clever ideas like this lock's mechanism.

To come up with a new mechanism would imply that the old mechanisms aren't all that good, and they will never admit that. It could lead to a major class action suite. In the US, the only option for any corporation is to just pretend that there's no issue, and continue to sell the same old shit. Until someone comes along and forces the issue, like this guy.

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps this lock is clever, but what the demonstrator claims is false. The lock can not be picked? No, not with those crappy conventional picks. But it can easily be picked with a Bowley pick, designed to pick Bowley locks. This lock is actually an example of security by obscurity. If all locks in the world were this lock, it would be no more secure than the traditional deadbolts used everywhere.

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[Anonymous Coward]

This a new lock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

Wow that is so cool. But most doors on residences are not build to security specifications. If these locks become common and cheap the crooks will simply attack the door itself with, say a crowbar.

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[Z00L00K]

The keys seems to be really bad and not holding up - they will easily snag and break off the coding part render the key useless.

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[Z00L00K]

And how long is the lifetime of the key? A week before it breaks off?

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no key. There is only Z00L. ...0...0K?

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[drinkypoo]

Master is protected by expired patents.... they try to threaten out people who are like them, they don't have anything good to offer anymore.

Master is protected by trademarks. Everyone buys Master locks because their name has been around since eternity. Most locks will never suffer a picking attempt, so just putting a padlock on something is "sufficient" for most people... to never notice that their lock is shit.

I have a master lock on my gate, but any asshole can cut my chain and replace a link with a quick link and even I probably won't notice for days. The chain is there to stop random assholes from driving up my driveway to "ask about their lost dog" while surveying my property for later theft attempts, not to keep people out.

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[Chas]

This a new lock:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]

Wow that is so cool. But most doors on residences are not build to security specifications. If these locks become common and cheap the crooks will simply attack the door itself with, say a crowbar.

Yes, but attacking the door itself is obvious, and NOISY.

Something like a bump key attack is nearly silent.

Re:Designed to be difficult to pick

[Chas]

Uh. Watch the Lockman28 video again.

He clamps it into a vise and tries to break the key.

About all he does is hurt his hand.

Re:Bolt cutters - the choice of locker room thieve

[tlhIngan]

Or, just haul a big bolt cutter into the locker room in a duffel bag and go "snip, snip, snip." That's usually what the local thieves do. It's also what I've seen a lot of companies do with padlocks on remote utility cabinets: why worry about keys at the end of a 150-mile trip when you can relock it for about $5?

yeah, but that leaves evidence.

This method does not leave evidence that the lock was opened. Someone could easily open the lock, take something, and relock it without the owner thinking anything was up. A bolt cutter would leave a broken lock which means the owner knows he was robbed.

That's why this is an important hack - because insurance often won't pay if there's no physical evidence of a break-in. Think of it - you could enter your neighbour's locked shed and steam their power tools, relock the shed, and the owner wouldn't know about it until they open the shed again. It could easily be months before the theft is discovered.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm shocked and dismayed legendary hacker Samy "I suck slashdot editor tiny penis" Kamkar isn't in on this hack.

Re:Bolt cutters - the choice of locker room thieve

[ElectricHellKnight]

>> open a new #3 Master Lock using a small brass hammer — in under 90 seconds

Or, just haul a big bolt cutter into the locker room in a duffel bag and go "snip, snip, snip."

Yes, but by using the method described in the article, you can re-lock the lock. If I were a thief, I would probably use this guy's method. Not only can you re-lock the lock afterward (meaning whoever owns the shit you're stealing probably won't notice until much later), it looks less suspicious.

Example: If a witness sees you doing anything involving a pair of boltcutters, it looks pretty damn suspicious. If you use a small hammer to open the lock, then stuff the hammer back into your coat, and someone sees you messing with a duffel bag/briefcase/whatever with a cleanly unlocked lock, it doesn't scream "I'm stealing things".

Opera 12.17 64-bit by site preferences... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't allow javascript typically & I use a software firewall + router native one.

APK

P.S.=> Opera 12.17 64-bit's STILL the most flexible feature laden natively browser there is - I set a GLOBAL preference to NOT ALLOW scripts, cookies, plugins (only on demand too), iframes/frames etc. & DO EXCEPTION SITES (shopping/banking/online commerce etc.) occasionally IF needed, for the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM of what I block to be allowed only (not all usually)... apk

Re:I'd be more worried about bump-key or bolt-cutt

[Moof123]

The 5 button door locks are also trivial, we call them 'riff-raff filters'. Anyone determined appropriate your lab equipment will not be stopped by them, or much else.

Anyone bent on doing bad cannot be stopped easily, but those folks are pretty darn rare. Most honest folks don't need much beyond a piece of tamper resistant tape to be kept honest, and a cheesy lock is even better.

Yanking

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

I was able to open a Master combo lock by yanking it mildly hard. I found out why that model was on sale for 99 cents.

Re:Coren22's got the "assburgers", not I... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Today is your last day indeed. I gave someone your address and money to pay you a visit.

Remembering history

[The New Guy 2.0]

Back some time ago, Master went to Slashdot to claim they needed some information security about lock-breaking methods otherwise it'd be game over for locks. New cars today come without physical keys and rely on an RFID-like chip that when close enough unlocks the car. Most important things are now locked with PIN-locks or card locks rather than key locks.

It's basically game over for the products under the Master line... repeated combo locks and key locks just didn't last until today.

Re:Remembering history

[Reziac]

The mechanical lock hasn't done all that badly; the tech is 4000 years old, and in any event only serves to keep honest people honest.

A can of Cheese opens them too...

[Anonymous Coward]

A guy showed how to open locks with one of those pressurized cans of cheese spread.

No lock is secure

[Anonymous Coward]

Whether you pick it, shim it, shoot it, clip it, or hammer it, a lock is not undefeatable. It keeps honest people honest, lets others know what is locked up is private and they should keep walking, and to a determined thief it's just a brief detour on the way to stealing. A #3 can be raked in seconds without carrying around a hammer, just using a bit of spring steel that would fit in your wallet.

My dad had this skillset

[smellsofbikes]

Not with this particular lock, but another very similar. I bought it when I was 15 or so, for locking up my bicycle. The lock shackle was entirely removable and shaped like a mushroom, the intent being you couldn't cut the hasp because the eyes of the cable lock were in the way. The body of the lock was shaped such that he could tell which way the dog engaged the shackle, so he picked it up, took off his shoe, whacked it, and the shackle popped right out, within about ten seconds of the first time he saw it. That shook my faith in physical security.
A design that uses a rotating tumbler cylinder that has a dog machined on the surface of it, that rotates into and out of the cutout in the shackle as the key is turned, would be proof against bumping. It's only because of the sprung dog that this works.

Bolt cutters

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a pair of 36" long bolt cutters, with a capacity of 3/8". I can open that lock in less then 2 seconds.

Re:Coren22, tell us of "Bolting on 'MoAr'", lol

[Coren22]

So what? Your software doesn't come with Windows either. You shouldn't expound on how you dominate people before you even win an argument, it is jumping the gun and makes you look bad.

Re:Coren22's got the "assburgers", not I... apk

[Coren22]

Yeah, you really taught me a lesson. You taught me a lesson in what incompetence looks like.

Re:Coren22's got the "assburgers", not I... apk

[Noah Haders]

best subject title EVAR

Re:Bolt cutters - the choice of locker room thieve

[Noah Haders]

it would be super sweet of you to steam your neighbor's power tools, and I bet they would look super clean afterwards, but why would you bother? maybe you're just a good neighbor?

Re:Hosts come w/ Windows... apk

[Coren22]

YOUR software doesn't come with Windows any more than BIND comes with Windows. How is this an argument for APKs hosts files engine that BIND doesn't come with Windows? Do you expect Windows to start shipping your crapware with laptops next?

Location

[PPH]

All of this depends on where the lock is. If it's at a remote, unsupervised site, no lock will hold for very long. If it's a cheap padlock at the local gym, not so easy. Some techniques like raking the pins or shimming the bold are quiet enough to work. But even tapping on a lock attached to a metal locker is going to attract the attention of six MMA fighters training with the weights. Even your lookout with his gun is going to get his neck snapped for screwing with their gym bags.

Coren22's got the "assburgers", not I... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject: Don't worry - today's the LAST day I do this to Coren22 - it was just to teach him a lesson due to his signature about me... lol!

* Let HIM see how it feels to have it done to him with HIS OWN MISTAKES thrown right back @ him, in his face, here publicly so all can see it!

APK

P.S.=> Google & BING see it by now after a month of it, lol, so that's all I wanted to occur - I could keep it up forever, but his fuckups here http://slashdot.org/comments.p... & here http://slashdot.org/comments.p... did the job for me (as long as he steers clear of me? He has no problems - if he opens his mouth though? Well, his self-upmoderated by sockpuppets posts will get those in them again)... apk

Re:Coren22's got the "assburgers", not I... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Real smart that psycho. Announcing it.

Lock? Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who gives a hoot about the lock? Even if the door itself gives you trouble, there's probably some glass nearby that won't. I'm not a security expert, but I'm not aware of anything that will keep someone out who _really_ wants to get in, and has the tools (a brain, for example) to do it.

Re:Lock? Who cares?

[Chas]

Again, the thing is, crashing a window, or breaking down a door is loud and obvious and attracts a lot of attention.
That's the LAST thing a prospective sneak-thief wants.

Re: Coren22: Tell us of "Bolting on 'MoAr'", lol

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh do please bugger off, apk, there's a good chap.

If I had a hammer...

[AaronW]

I remember back in grade school they did not have a lock cutter. The administration would just whack the combination locks with a hammer and they'd pop right open. I remember one of the non-Master locks popping completely apart and spilling its guts. It doesn't surprise me that it works for other types of locks as well. Locks are, after all, good at keeping honest people honest.

Re:WTF

[freeze128]

An angle grinder makes a lot more noise, is harder to keep in a pocket, and prevents you from locking it back up again to hide your tracks.

Then just put your own padlock on it with gum jammed in the keyhole. The owner will need to cut your lock off because his key won't work, but he won't be suspicious because he would have blamed the gum.

Padlocks are a deterrent

[brunes69]

These articles are so dumb.

Any padlock no matter how well engineered is simply a deterrent that can be foiled by a $20 pair of bolt cutters. No one is going to be screwing around with brass hammers or lockpicks to get into your stupid tool shed. If they want what you have locked up, they would simply use bolt cutters and be in and out in seconds. The idea that anyone is going to screw around scoping out Masterlock locks so they can tap them with brass hammers is ridiculous.

Padlocks, much like the fancy-pants locks on your house, are not going to keep anyone who REALLY WANTS IN out.

The whole point of locks is a DETERRENT, they are not pure security. They will keep out casual thieves, who will go onto the next house that has no locks at all.

Re:Padlocks are a deterrent

[wonkey_monkey]

The whole point of locks is a DETERRENT, they are not pure security.

Don't remember anyone saying otherwise...

They will keep out casual thieves

Not now they won't. Now a casual thief who's forgotten to bring his bolt cutters - and who isn't specifically looking out for a Master lock, by the way - will spot one and know that he can just tap it with a rock.

Re:Padlocks are a deterrent

[moeinvt]

It all depends on what you're trying to secure. Knowing how easily a lock can be defeated is good information. My most frequent use of a padlock is in the gym. Who's going to carry a pair of bolt cutters into the locker room of the gym, health spa or anywhere else there are lockers available for temporary use? Obviously a padlock can be defeated by a determined thief with time, privacy and the right tools, but sometimes a deterrent against the casual thief is exactly what's needed.
For the locker room, even a small hammer and 90 seconds seems a bit too conspicuous. The little combination Master locks that seem to be a de-facto locker room standard are much worse. Some of those can be defeated with the quick jerk of a pry bar.

Re:Padlocks are a deterrent

[brunes69]

Oh yes, because someone who has no thefts planned will just be casually strolling down the street at 2 AM and see the master lock on your toolshed and decide "you know what? I have had enough of the straight and narrow, time to steal some hedge trimmers".

Yes, because that is how most thefts happen. They never happen with someone canvassing a neighbourhood and taking as many quick-win items as possible.

Why would anyone goof around trying to find a rock to break open your cheap $10 padlock to get at your worn out hedge trimmers when your neighbor likely has hundreds of dollars of stuff sitting out in the yard unsecured?

Home security is all about making your house MARGINALLY more difficult to steal from than the guy beside you - nothing more, and nothing less.

Re:Padlocks are a deterrent

[wonkey_monkey]

Why would anyone goof around trying to find a rock to break open your cheap $10 padlock

Because they know it will work.

Oh yes, because someone who has no thefts planned will just be casually strolling down the street at 2 AM and see the master lock on your toolshed and decide "you know what? I have had enough of the straight and narrow, time to steal some hedge trimmers".

You were the one who posited the "casual thief" in the first place:

The whole point of locks is a DETERRENT, they are not pure security. They will keep out casual thieves, who will go onto the next house that has no locks at all.

If he's seen this video, he now won't go the next house, because he knows he can defeat the lock in five seconds.

If I was a thief, and you gave me a free choice between an unlocked shed and one locked with a lock I knew I could defeat in five seconds, I'd probably go for the locked one on the basis that it was more likely to have something worth nicking inside.

I thought it was well known

[aepervius]

Most of those brass lock I had which failed, actually primarily failed because with age you did not even need the hammer to release the pick, just pressing with the hands and the picks released, the mechanism inside or the picks becoming so used that they lost even a small modicum of tension retention. One i am keeping for demonstration purpose you can simply open with bare hands. This happens the more you open and close the lock. I do wonder if this was a new lock or a somewhat used one.

Re:WTF

[jklovanc]

Gee, there is gum in the lock. I have no idea how it got there. Those burn marks were not on the wall before. I am not suspicious at all. /sarcasm

Meh

[Anonymous Coward]

The guy who pilfered wallets for weeks on end from my high-school locker-room used the heel of his shoe. But if all you have is a hammer...

If All you've got is a hammer, ...

[stooo]

Noooo.
The solution is to make the possession of hammers illegal.
If All you've got is a hammer, every problem looks like a lock.

Re:If All you've got is a hammer, ...

[Pseudonymous Powers]

The solution is to make the possession of hammers illegal.

Yes. But we can't stop there. After all, many rocks can be used as hammers. We must start a task force (paid for by a punitive quarry tax) to collect all the rocks in America and put them under lock and key. And once there are no more hammers or rocks around, even a Master lock will suffice to secure these terroristic tools. Problem solved, democracy saved.

Oh, wait, no. When you think about it, dirt is basically just a bunch of small rocks. We'll need to collect all the dirt as well. We can pay for that vital initiative with a farm and hygiene tax.

Just as freedom isn't free, security isn't secure.

If All you've got is a hammer...

[stooo]

If All you've got is a hammer, every problem looks like a lock .

The Doctor's Choice

[Anonymous Coward]

Sonic screwdriver. And it has other uses. Well, so do hammers. But the former are less bulky and not as heavy.

Re: I'd be more worried about bump-key or bolt-cut

[Chas]

A set of shims would be nice, quiet, cheap AND fast.

Actually the lock companies are learning though. Most of the decent companies, and even some of the Master Lock lines are essentially shim-proof now.

Re:Forgot to mention...

[Chas]

The huge "upside" to this method. You require no specialized tools and no real skill with said tools.

Basically ANYONE can perform this attack.

Because SOMEONE can't be bothered to watch/read...

[Chas]

This isn't about "breaking off the lock".

This is about tapping the lock several times to cause the locking bar to release. Leaving an undamaged lock.

Coren22's impersonation "APKolypse"

[Anonymous Coward]

Coren22 IMPERSONATES RESPECTED MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COMMUNITY http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

---

"privilege escalation's a bad thing" - by Coren22 on Tuesday September 22, 2015

How else programmatically update it?

"requires elevation to write hosts" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday September 23, 2015

Hypocrite later admits it - hosts do vs. WFP/SFP not my ware. Users set it not programmatic impersonation. Security wares need it.

---

"secretary at MalwareBytes took a look at his source code & said it looked all good" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015

Mr. Steven Burn of Malwarebytes

"yes I've seen the code & yes it is safe." FROM http://forum.hosts-file.net/vi...

---

"we should avoid your crap it looks like malware." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Monday November 02, 2015 @03:52PM (#50850445)

60++ reputable sources say different:

64-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...

+

32-bit model https://www.virustotal.com/en/...

&

Installer-> http://f.virscan.org/APKHostsF...

MalwareBytes' hpHosts Admin (MalwareBytes employee) hosts & recommends it -> http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...

---

"MiTM... his software provides" - by Coren22 (1625475) on Wednesday November 18, 2015

Hardcoded favs users provide = REVERSE DNS verified & my ware filters 5,500++ false positives - security site hosts data = false positives filtered.

---

"Apk doesn't think DNS servers are worth running & believes Microsoft Active Directory can run w/out DNS." - by Coren22 (1625475) on Tuesday October 27, 2015

Show us where I say it? Not illogic logic but where I say it. I say AD needs internal DNS far back as 2007

http://forums.tweaktown.com/wi...

See "To warn users who have ActiveDirectory/AD LAN-WAN setups to NOT use external DNS servers" there.

APK

P.S.=>

"modding you down for trolling in your signature" - by Dog-Cow (21281) on Wednesday November 25, 2015

Dog-Cow's (old acc't. no new sockpuppet from you) thoughts of your signatures about me

... apk

Coren22: Tell us of "Bolting on 'MoAr'", lol

[Anonymous Coward]

YOU BLEW IT BADLY HERE especially -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

See subject & my last post you replied to Coren22: BIND doesn't come w/ Windows, the most used OS there is by the most folks on the desktop!

(LMAO - I own you... YOU, have been DOMINATED!)

APK

P.S.=> You're efficiency is poor - Less IS truly MORE in using what you already have (hosts + firewalls) as I do, & to do more with less... apk

bike mechanics

[surd1618]

do this all of the time. Not for thievery, but it's a pretty common bike problem for totally legitimate reasons.

Deterrent Not Prevention

[gpronger]

So, the idea that this is newsworthy, is the shock to me. In Junior High (a goodly number of years ago) the benefit of a Master lock was that when you forgot or lost your key, you took a buddies shoe, whacked it solid on the top and it came open. If you're buying a Master Lock, or any similar style lock, that it is somehow theft-proof is naive at best. You're buying a deterrent. On your school locker, the school ne'er-do-well' can't simply rummage your stuff as he slinks on through. sure he could take his shoe and whack it open, but that's noisy, and likely draw suspicion. Master Lock sells stuff that generally does the job, just recognize what you're buying and get on with life.

Bolt Cutters?

[gerald.edward.butler]

Shite! You can break just about ANY padlock with a 4 foot piece of 1/2" steel pipe. Simply slide it through the padlock hasp, and twist (trust me, you'll have plenty of leverage) and it will either snap, or what it is attached to will snap. Either way, you're in. Same goes for chains on fences with padlocks. In fact, 4 foot is probably overstating it. Hell I've done it with like a 2ft piece. Takes no more than about 20 seconds. Doesn't require significant strength. Physics - it's your friend. Or has often been said, "Give me but a long enough, and strong enough lever, and I can move the world!"

Re:Bolt Cutters?

[Only a-z,A-Z,0-9,$_,]

Only if you can fit the 1/2" pipe through the hasp.

90 seconds, hilarious.

[cory2253]

My dad did an old school correspondence course in locksmithing while i was a kid (the resulting business putting me through college.) he used to challenge my brother and I to lock picking challenges. My best record (starting with the pick and tension bar on each side of the master lock in question, hands on hips) was 2.1 seconds, lucky? sure, but no hammer involved. I can to this day pick a standard master lock in less than 5 seconds, and probably the lock on your front door in 15.

Not as cheap...

[martinfb]

...yet possibly even quicker: bolt cutter!