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German Court Orders Man To Destroy Naked Images of Ex-Partner (bbc.com)
AmiMoJo sends this report from the BBC: Germany's highest court has ordered a man to destroy intimate photos and videos of his ex-partner because they violate her right to privacy. The Federal Court said the man, a photographer, should no longer possess naked photos and sex tapes, even if he had no intention of sharing them. The woman had originally agreed to the images but this consent stopped when the relationship ended, the court said. Germany has some of the strictest privacy laws in Europe.
From now on, one's IQ should be based on whether or not an individual takes nude picks or videos of themselves for intimate sexual non-artistic reasons. Meaning, if it's an act purely out of lust or vanity. My advice: DON'T DO IT!!!
Clearly their bone-headed decisions also reflect the character of the partners they choose as well.
I can already see them lining up for the next lawsuits: since the court did not define "intimate" some of those weasels will argument that nearly everything might be considered intimate.
How would the court ever know if he has fully complied with the order?!
All the better to hide your Nazi affiliation with.
Unless the photographer has an actual proof of commercial compensation for the work, it's a law I think other countries should adopt as well.
Not sure why it would take a court ruling for him to do so, in any case - I cannot think of a reason somebody with a shred of common decency and manners would fail to comply with such a request from an ex...
(Bonus points for the captcha - "Consent")
This is insane! Besides an enforcement issue (Will the government check this man's belongings to make sure there are no backups?) The photos are his property as he is the photographer. This is a disturbing ruling. Now the subject gets to decide on how the artist portrays it. I modeled nude for a painting class a decade ago, can I have all these paintings destroyed?
It's not "partner", OK, it's girlfriend, boyfriend, husband or wife. I really do grow tired of the PC labels.
Merry Christmas, all!
Does his consent to support her stop when the relationship ends? No fucking way. He has to work two jobs now to keep her "in the lifestyle she is accustomed to" until she dies, even though the relationship has ended and he doesn't even get to keep even a few mementos from it.
Now there's only 20 billion naked chick pics left on the Internet. We need more Porn now!
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
So if they did the photo's for art, wouldn't both of them have intellectual property rights?
Yea, im bored stuck at work...
In order to ensure compliance, they'd have to effectively set his privacy rights aside altogether.
This is why I get so sick and tired of the people who come rushing to the defense of women who take naked selfies, do sex tapes, etc. You want to see privilege and entitlement? You take a bunch of pictures and videos and send them to someone and then sick the government on them, forcing them to effectively upend their own privacy rights over mere continued possession.
Check your privilege, honey.
Will the enforcement/compliance be something along the lines of "pics or it didn't happen"?
And just why might German law have more privacy support than any other European nation? Trying to cover up some wrongs that are still going on, just might be the reason. A few billion dollars might be turned up, that need to be restored to those whose wealth was stolen, would be a great reason for strict privacy laws.
German court cases have no virtually effect on the English speaking countries. So unless you're a data center or married to a Valkyrie, this case has more of an academic than practical interest.
However, the BBC article and apparently even the German ruling itself, which is linked in the BBC article, refer to "intimate" rather than simply naked photos. Quoting from the first paragraph, and hoping I don't run afoul of German copyright law:
Even without the usual Google translate copy pasta, we can see the German word for intimate used twice in the phrases "intimen Bezeihung", intimate relationships, and "intime Bild- oder Filmaufnahmen", intimate photos and videos. I'm not patient enough to process the PDF file but I did stumble upon the German phrases for "wearing only underwear", so I can conclude that the ruling isn't limited to naked photos but extends to embarrassing photos, perhaps even something as innocent as a kiss.
This opens up a the whole idea of what was agreed to during the relationship as being void afterwards:
Oh, the lawyers are going to be able to buy lots of goodies with the money that they will make over this!
They already made a porn, and she consented to being part of it. Softcore or hardcore, doesn't matter. What she did was consent to the production (especially if she took the shots herself) and distributed to them. At this point, the only thing legally relevant is copyright claims in the film. However, the unholy alliance of feminists and white knights sees yon damsel in distress and must sally forth to do battle with the dragon which is an ex-boyfriend who might distribute it at some point in the future.
How about this? You don't want to star in a porno, don't bloody make a porno of any sort, and send it to someone else. I swear, people today are absolutely barking mad in their demand for privilege and naivete about the nature of the Internet and humanity. Up next: don't want to be convicted of conspiracy to commit a crime when your ex gets pangs of conscience? Don't commit one.
Let's not forget Germany already has the oddest photography laws of all western countries. It is the only country that effectively makes the art of street photograph illegal: you should have consent of all people in your picture, even in public places. All pictures of the Berlin Wall being taken down would be illegal if taken today. There's a reason Germany doesn't have Google Streetview.
In most countries, photographs are the property of the photographer and he can do with them whatever he wants (if it is not obviously damaging to the subjects). In Germany, that's not the case; photographers need consent not only to use pictures but even to take them. In that regard, Germany is unique and against that background, this ruling is no surprise. In fact it is completely consistent with the way Germany deals with photography in general.
0x or or snor perron?!
What I find interesting about this case isn't the result, but what probably led up to it. For this court case to happen, first the woman would need to ask her partner to delete nude photos/videos of her, he would need to refuse, she'd contact a lawyer, he still refused, they went to court, he refused to settle. This case had to be brewing for weeks or months before we got to this verdict, which would indicate this guy really really didn't want to delete those files.
How messed up does a person need to be to let things get to the point where a judge needs to order them to delete pictures of their ex off their computer? Let go, dude!
Basically the German court came to a completely contradictory ruling. The man obtained the photo's legally and with consent. The person changing their mind well after the fact is like a person claiming "I was raped for the full duration of our relationship because I no longer consent.". Go read the definition of consent. You don't have to like the logical equivalency I just gave, but revoked consent for past actions is exactly why the court told this man to destroy his property.
As the AC above states, this means that the court order itself is useless after the case is over. During the case the guy consented to the courts request to destroy stuff. After the case he can revoke his consent, and the courts already ruled that it was fine to do so.
I'll give you that there should be a buffer zone for consent, especially to something like photos (sexually graphic or not). I'll further give you that consent does not count at all if a person is drugged or drunk. Those things are not what happened. Actors deal with this kind of thing all the time in their contracts. Once you consent the holding company must abide by their end of the deal , but can do with what you consented to as seen fit in agreement with consent. If the images get used in a way that was not agreed to the actor goes to court against the holding company. If there is only consent then there are NO restrictions. In the case that the holding company never does anything with the material, there would not be a court case (at least that would not be called frivolous).
So in a sense the courts ruled that this guy was guilty of a crime he never committed, in addition to ruling that consent has no meaning because you can revoke consent on past completed actions. In case I'm still too vague, that last part makes their ruling contradictory.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
I deleted them
even though it might make your blood run cold, as per the ruling in that case, "I guess you gotta buy it."
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Fines or jail if caught. Germany is one. Kind of after the fact.
What he needs to do is tattoo the pic onto his body and tell them over my dead ass you getting it.
What you say makes sense for TAKING the photos, doing the actual photography.
One could argue that during the relationship she consented to him having those photos and viewing photos of her private parts, and she no longer consents to him jerking to her private parts today. If I were the judge, I probably wouldn't make that ruling, but it's logically consistent. If I were the judge, I'd probably tell him "don't be a dick" and try to find a way to encourage him to grow up, without setting precedent. For example if they are also fighting over some physical property, I might suggest to his attorney that being a dickhead doesn't endear him to the court on the issue of the television set or whatever else they are arguing about.
and she no longer consents to him jerking to her private parts today.
What about his memories? Is he no longer allowed to think about her?
Pics, or it didn't happen!
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Being forced to destroy your property is not a punishment? I'm not sure what planet you come from, but imagine the outrage on Earth f China made people destroy images.. Oh wait.. that happened already.. In fact this was one of the things we despised about the old USSR and hard line Communists. Along with propaganda, which the West now fully employs against it's own populaces.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
What you say makes sense for TAKING the photos, doing the actual photography.
One could argue that during the relationship she consented to him having those photos and viewing photos of her private parts, and she no longer consents to him jerking to her private parts today.
I'm gonna guess you write EULAs for a living.
One could argue that during the relationship she consented to him having those photos and viewing photos of her private parts, and she no longer consents to him jerking to her private parts today.
The problem with that argument is that there's no basis in law for it. He doesn't need her consent to use a photograph he owns as erotica. If she didn't give her consent in the first place, that would be an invasion of privacy matter. If her consent were found to be invalid (because it was coerced, or because she was underage, etc.) then the court could correctly deprive him of ownership of it (even without getting into the criminal implications of such a scenario). If he were infringing on her rights of publicity (by using her image in an ad, let's say), then he might owe her damages but would still in theory own the photograph. If she was actually the one who took the photograph, then she could probably assert copyright. But wanking to something you legally own doesn't require anybody else's approval.
Disclaimer: IANAL, and I certainly haven't studied German law
If he doesn't check in, a server somewhere releases the files.
And what about everywhere else they exist?
There's no such thing as Destroying The Negatives, never really was. Any "control" over Imaginary Property that's been released in the wild is voluntary at best.
If a quarantine was maintained (knowledge is a contagion) and the photos were distributed under agreed conditions (eg nondisclosure) then they can be considered isolated and treated as property, ie your ex must forfeit them, is accountable for disclosure.
Unconditional distribution is a global release. No court, no dictator can take the piss out of the pool if you already told someone your secret recipe for mango-celery salsa.
"Of course I deleted those photos."
But I'm not enough of a jerk to actually post them online. Telling me I can't have something you gave me anymore just pisses me off, and it's flat out wrong it shouldn't make a difference what it is. Publicizing is different tho. People need to get over their hangups about sex and nudity anyway... it's ridiculous that society is this advanced but a naked picture can ruin your life.
'One can argue' ANYTHING you want, that doesn't mean any given argument is 'logically consistent'. To 'argue' what you have (or what she did) she'd have to demonstrate that the photos/videos were only consented to 'while in a relationship'. Without evidence demonstrating this is true it is an ASSUMPTION that it is. The judge is effectively reversing the burden of proof...
That's not surprising to me though since while reading the article I saw this other story about Hermion in some new Harry Potter movie being cast as a black woman & black women are 'rejoicing' that they see themselves in the character more...AND that this is somehow demonstration that in today's world 'race doesn't matter'....???? WHATTT? My point is that it has finally & definitively happened...black is now white, white is black, up is down, down is up, the earth is square not round...etc. EVERYTHING that I knew to be 100% positively factual is today WRONG...
So...today I declare myself a person of color, in fact I'm black & proud of it! Power to the black people!
It sounds what is lacking is legal documentation of her permanent consent and that the judge is saying default consent within a relationship is within the relationship.
This sounds related to "prenuptial" agreements to me.
If he had gotten her to sign a model's consent form and specified how she was being compensated for the images and videos, then his rights would be permanent.
But what of any 3rd party they may have had sex with? What if they also have photos given with consent during a three way? There is no relationship to end there. Is the judge saying the photos and videos were only good during the evening and ended with the evening? What of the persons right to record their own life?
And what of public nudity and photos taken of people naked out in public? Is there some kind of implicit permission or does a person have a right to their "likeness" even then? ( and is that right for everyone or only for celebrities?)
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I think it it absolutely bizarre a women can "revoke consent" months or years later for something so permanent as a photo or video. Men have no rights anymore. This opens up abuse holes, such as if the guy had shared it online and the women is bitter in the break up, she could claims revoked consent..
By the way, what about non nude photos? These photos are used for memories too.
Does she get to revoke consent for normal photos too? After we prefect brain memory changes, a la Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, can she revoke consent for his memories too?
"he woman had originally agreed to the images but this consent stopped when the relationship ended, the court said"
But in this case it really does apply: Hitler.
This is nonsense.
His probable reaction should be to photoshop all of the photos to put her in sweatpants and sweatshirts, add about 100 pounds to her weight, then release them as proof he's destroyed the original.
Where ever you see the doublespeak term "consent" being bandied about, it's a good indicator someone is getting fucked over by petty-tyrannical laws. This applies equally to non-sexual contexts.
and she no longer consents to him jerking to her private parts today.
What about his memories? Is he no longer allowed to think about her?
Apparently there is an experimental way to erase memories with a laser. Hopefully something like that will never become a court-ordered procedure.
When it comes to your political stance of privacy issues, be very careful what wish for...
Coming up next, Germans force man to undergo brain surgery to remove the mental images
I'm not a German lawyer either, though I was once an American student of the law.
Not being any kind of expert in German law, I don't know that under German law the photos ARE his property. They may be community property. German law might provide her with applicable privacy rights. The "right to be forgotten " reminds us that not every country has the same laws as the US.
This idea actually seems to be a good one. Not sure if the law is worded well enough to stand up to abuse but it actually puts legal definitions around what should be known already: when you end a relationship, it changes how you relate to the things shared with that person.
I'm kinda surprised so many are considering this a "change in consent" or "going back and changing your mind after the fact". It's not. When a relationship changes, the way you relate to that person changes. Another way to think of it is: the consent for sharing intimate things changed when you are no longer intimate with that person....so no "changing your mind" but it's recognizing what already happened.
As far as comments of "if you don't want pictures shared, then don't let them be taken". So, because something might be abused later, don't partake in it? What a sad way to live. Safe yes, but so is never drinking, never leaving the house, etc. Pick your risky behavior and insert here.
Being in a relationship is by definition trusting that person more than others, otherwise it's just, at best, friends with benefits. Ending the relationship is backing down on how much you share with the other person, so of course trusting them with pictures like that has changed.
AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
> The judge is effectively reversing the burden of proof..
The burden of proof relates to proving facts, not matters of law.
The fact is that she does not consent to his possession of these private pictures of her. The interesting question is a question of LAW: under the applicable law, does it matter whether or not she consents? A question of law such as this is decided by a judge reading the text of the law and considering the reasoning used in prior cases. There is no fact to prove, so burden of proof isn't relevant. The judge is deciding whether German law allows him to keep "her" private photos without her consent. The facts (which can be proven or disproven) are not in dispute.
Opps, I backed it up on my Chinese Cloud Service and now the world has it. Sorry Bitch.
There is a distinct probability that the German court would be infringing copyright treaties that the German government has agreed to. The photographer owns those all copyrights to those photos, as they were taken with consent, published or unpublished.
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
Not what happened, and if it does happen that way it's going to have to involve sending a lot of money in the direction of lawyers to get them interested.
I don't know if you are mixing up criminal law (governments pay) and civil law (litigants pay) but it looks like it. Utter bastards trying to turn civil issues such as copyright into criminal issues are of course confusing the issue, but even with that sting you suggest it is not something the police are going to care about so the stinger is going to have to "lawyer up".
So sorry to say but it doesn't even hold up as a soap opera plot.
A photographer also owns copyright to images they take without consent, the two are unrelated. The standard model release many photographers use has separate sections for each. They do cross a bit, I suppose , if the image happens to be a copy of a copyright protected work - a photo of a painting.
Privacy is a separate issue. A peeping Tom owns the copyright to his pictures- that doesn't mean privacy laws disappear.
Again, I wouldn't have ruled for the woman, based on the facts we know and what little German law we know. The reason I wouldn't is because I don't know of any concept in German law that gives her the right to consent or not at this point.
So, if I read all this correctly, this would apply even if the photo was of the (then) happy couple, taken remotely. But why should HER right to privacy automatically trump HIS right to own a memento of the relationship? In the absence of any actual attempt by a guy to use a twosome pic in an underhanded way, it doesn't quite seem fair to force him to destroy such a photograph (or whatever).
because the consent was given in the context of a relationship which since has ended
To state this more completely, the consent was given in the context of a relationship which, any reasonable adult knows a priori, has a significant probability of ending at some time in the future.
With this ruling, a government has absolved all of its citizens from the need to think about the consequences of decisions, such as giving consent to a potentially embarrassing activity.
The woman had originally agreed to the images but this consent stopped when the relationship ended, the court said.
At the time, she gave unconditional consent, not the conditional consent indicated by the words that the court later put in her mouth. It's a horrible precedent that a court can retroactively change the terms of an agreement, to the benefit of party B and the detriment of party A.
it's obvious that permission was given based on having a relationship to the photographer, and once that relationship is gone, the permission is gone.
Here's what is obvious: she gave permission based on a relationship that, any reasonable adult knows, has a significant probability of ending in the future.
With this ruling, a government has absolved all of its citizens from the need to think about the consequences of decisions, such as giving consent to a potentially embarrassing activity.
The woman had originally agreed to the images but this consent stopped when the relationship ended, the court said.
At the time, she gave unconditional consent, not the conditional consent indicated by the words that the court later put in her mouth. It's a horrible precedent that a court can retroactively change the terms of an agreement, to the benefit of party B and the detriment of party A.
*Naked* images would just be disrespectful in this case. At least get them sleeved or framed! Geez!