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Robot Mule Put Out To Pasture By Marine Corps (nbcnews.com)
An anonymous reader sends word that the Marines have decided that Boston Dynamics' robotic pack mules are too noisy to use. NBC reports: The massive robotic mule developed by Alphabet-owned Boston Dynamics won't see combat with U.S. Marines. LS3 (Legged Squad Support Systems) was meant to carry cargo for weary soldiers in the field. Funded by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, or DARPA, the robot was capable of walking with 400 pounds of equipment on its back. LS3 could run for 24 hours straight on a 20-mile mission across rough terrain. No controller was needed; it took visual and verbal cues from soldiers to find its way. So why doesn't the Marine Corps want to use it? The robot's gas-powered engine isn't exactly the stealthiest piece of technology.
Goat
Thank you.
The "article" such that it is, is not much longer than the Slashdot "summary". Any chance of some editorial work on these "stories"? More linkies?
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
It's good to know that $30 million dollars is only good to imitate Santa's reindeer.
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
20 miles for 24h with 400 pounds of weight? Sorry, but those specs don't sound all that great compared to a real mule or pack horse.
I mean, seriously, its NOT THAT HARD to quiet an engine, they've been making diesels on subs quiet for 100 years now. Literally all you need is a better muffler, and add some sound proofing covering around the engine, maybe adds 10lbs at most.
Or, better yet, go with a small gas turbine, they're nearly silent, especially with a muffler, and can burn just about anything, diesel, gas, kerosene, you name it.
That's pretty damned idiotic throwing away a $30 million program because you didn't want to spend another few $100 on a muffler and some padding.
Maybe stealth should be reconsidered when applied to robotics. Other applications should be considered. For example, imagine 230 of these robots, each as noisy as a lawnmower and as terrifying as war itself, charging over a hillside in bevis and butthead masks. And as a peacekeeping force they would be unsurpassed! either keep the peace, or we send these things back around christmas decked in flashing lights and dressed as bea arthur.
Good people go to bed earlier.
damn thing kept getting spooked by lightning storms and running off with all my Smithore
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
So they basically said they don't want it because they would use it in a manner that it wasn't designed for. Maybe if you mentioned that stealth was a requirement WHILE THEY WERE BUILDING IT you could have avoided millions of dollars in wasted tax money, and millions of dollars in wasted man-hours.
I remember watching Boston Dynamic's BigDog demonstration, and being thoroughly impressed by the robot's ability to maintain balance and regain footing when kicked or slipping on ice. That said, the video also demonstrated exactly the Marine's concern, but I thought that they'd be able to reduce hardware requirements and increase battery efficiency to the point of overcoming the gas engine requirement. I guess that battery efficiency (and requisite durability) just hasn't gotten to that point yet, or gasoline was just specified as a requirement.
It's a shame this didn't work out. I could see the benefit of having a pack mule that won't spook, hee-haw randomly, or refuse commands.
"Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
>> humvees with a 50cal on the roof
To be fair, the 50cal is pretty quiet until it fires. :)
With its payload capacity, it could probably carry 40 gallons of water, that could make a big difference for a wildland firefighter.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Not News: Robotics company doesnt know how to make internal combustion engines.
There are dozens of ways that automotive engineers over the years have decreased the decibel output of internal combustion engines.
None of these improvements go into generators. Ive watch some youtube videos of the 'Mules' and it looks like a robot with a generator on its back.
They're probably using generators because noise was never a stipulation in the design parameters. What a bunch of idiots. Cancel a program because
it does something you never stipulated it shouldnt.
Any mission where this would make sense, it seems that a Hummv would fill the same role. If you want something for patrols or other missions that require silence then it's going to have to be battery operated and I doubt the storage density is high enough to make that work yet.
Quiet is relative, even soundproofed might be too loud. Sounds like a complicated, expensive piece of equipment. When lives matter do you really want to bet your life on a mechanical donkey? What sort of missions are they running anyway? We can bomb you from halfway across the world without landing. If this if for some sort of elite mission, use tier one elite soldiers who can carry their weight. Why not dogs? Or carts? Why not just have robot marines in the first place? Easiest solution I see is to train some soldiers to be pack mules. Pick the best of the lot who can carry weight and that is your main job. So you have a few extra people, a few extra people who can provide assistance besides just hauling stuff.
Alternate uses for the technology.
1. A bomb that can wait near an expected target site, then run over and detonate when commanded to. Basically, a drone that can hide in the bushes.
2. An military-grade electrical generator or hardware hauler that can simplify setting up a forward base with limited access. Alternately, a civilian-grade heavy generator that can be walked into areas with limited access.
3. Military swarm-scare-monster, as described somewhere above in the comments. It could be sent into caves to root out combatants that are hardened against traditional assault methods.
4. Give them shields and swarm behavior to form a shield-wall around soft targets, or gaps between buildings to form a hardened perimeter.
...what else can we come up with?
The first time I saw the "Big Dog" as it was called back in the early days (2008?), I made that comment immediately. It's a remarkable piece of robotics, but it can't be used on a mission. The enemy would hear you coming from miles away. So what is the point? The device doesn't fit the application.
And now, 7 years later they finally figure that out. Wow!
An effective "democracy" creates the illusion the people have a say in their government.
While I don't see Fuel Cells as being very viable for Cars compared to a Lithium Battery, they might serve a good application in this place considering now you neither care about the cost of fuel (or excess CO2 emissions) but the fact that it is silent technology. The downside is you would still need to carry around bottles of Hydrogen Fuel which is explosive although probably not much worse than ammunition or fuel. And while admittedly tanks aren't exactly silent, they do have a point if this is suppose to be used with infantry; You don't want to sound like a lawnmower.
True, but real horses or mules tend to react poorly to gunfire.
Just like people, they can be trained and acclimated. Horses have worked out well for the Marines in the past, even in a completely autonomous mode.
..."
"... Reckless was bought by members of the United States Marine Corps and trained to be a pack horse for the Recoilless Rifle Platoon, Anti-Tank Company, 5th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division. She quickly became part of the unit and was allowed to roam freely through camp, entering the marines' tents, where she would sleep on cold nights, and was known for her willingness to eat nearly anything, including scrambled eggs, beer, coca-cola and, once, about $30 worth of poker chips. She served in numerous combat actions during the Korean War, carrying supplies and ammunition, and was also used to evacuate wounded. Learning each supply route after only a couple of trips, she often traveled to deliver supplies to the troops on her own, without benefit of a handler. The highlight of her nine-month military career came in late March 1953 during the Battle for Outpost Vegas when, in a single day, she made 51 solo trips to resupply multiple front line units. She was wounded in combat twice
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
A horse has.
FTFY.
While that's a cool fact, do you have any data to suggest that many horses can do this (and that mules can't)? I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that your example is an exception rather than the rule.
First thing I thought... How noisy / manpower efficient is it compared to firing up a jeep or a dirt bike?
This was my reckoning. BD is probably more interested in a big, juicy contract, but the armed forces are probably more interested in reactively buying them off the market. The snag being that such a production pool may not exist, then.
Flatland tasks are best suited to a vehicle. Other tasks are well-served by a robohauler, a pool NOT identical to tasks best served by a live pack animal. Unless you're one of the dumbfucks below who see absolutes and exclusivity instead of partial overlap.
Wasn't bd bought by google last year?
Yes, and I'm guessing this is all sour grapes.
Google doesn't do military applications. They bought Boston Dynamics and have told the military that they are not going to do any more military research. So, the military said, 'Well, we don't want it anyway, because it's too loud'. That gets Boston Dynamics out of the business and lets the Marines save face.
The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
You, my friend, have never driven an HMMWV.
However, you're probably right. I doubt it has the range and carrying capacity. That doesn't mean it doesn't have other useful applications but it does mean the HMMWV isn't going anywhere any time soon. If you get the chance, even the original civilian models aren't bad, then you absolutely will love it. If you work, really hard, then you can get it stuck. However, with some ingenuity, you can extract the vehicle with a second vehicle or all by itself.
Block and tackle are standard equipment. Many models come with a winch.
My job (MOS) was a driver in motor pool. I was not the first but I was one of the earliest to drive one as a Marine not directly involved in the trials - this was after the trials. I stationed at Quantico at the time. Prior to that, I'd mostly been a staff driver. However, I've done the qual on a bunch of vehicles and my preference is the "Humvee." In fact, I'm looking to buy one but I'm unwilling to pay what people are asking when they're in the condition that they're in. Whilst i was not a mechanic MOS, I had to be fairly adept at doing repairs and I'm rather familiar with the HMMWV so I don't really want to buy junk and end up sad.
Oh, most people have two questions. No, it is not a manual transmission (but there's a real linkage between the lever and the transmission) and no, they do not need a key to start them (though I understand that some later models came equipped with one - I've not seen one). Losing a key and being unable to start your vehicle is a very bad thing to do in the middle of a crisis.
As an aside, I'd really like an MRAP but, as near as I can tell, those aren't ever going to be sold to civilians - though they once made that claim about the HMMWV. If one comes up and I've got access, I'd love to own one. No, I don't have any "good" reason for wanting to own one except it will be lots of fun and make an awesome ATV.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
No.
The Jeep requires something resembling a road, or at least reasonably flat and unobstructed land.
This robot can walk across things a Jeep simply can't.
The robot horse can walk in the woods, up and down hills that are too steep/rocky/slippery for a Jeep, all sorts of things.
Quadrupeds are far more versatile than cars, we are just way better at making cares than quadrupeds (for the moment)
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Mod parent up!
a ditch of certain size will get the humvee stuck. it will not fit between two big rocks either. that's why the soldiers would have been walking in the first place.
the soldiers don't like walking though so there you have it, the reason why they don't want it. if it's silent the excuse will be that they might get walked over by it because they can't hear it. the first excuse was that the gear was too heavy. so they'll keep going in oh so stealthy blackhawks.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
In the Foreign Legion missions in Chad and the Central African Republic I participated in, we had the French-produced VLRA for rough-terrain driving. The thing is incredibly rugged, and actually has a Perkins engine, initially built for small ships (!!). It features such niceties as a 200 liter water tank behind the rear axle, a compressor outlet for inflating tyres, and (as customized by the Legion) a pump between the two lateral fuel tanks. The enormous reserve wheels, one besides the driver and one on the other side, are as good as armour to protect people from small-caliber fire. I have seen some VLRAs stuck in deep sand, but that was more to drivers inexperienced with dune-driving than to anything else. I also remember a bunch of mechanics, in the bush at Awakaba, the hunting lodge of former Central African emperor Bokassa improvising a crane, from felled trees, to exchange an entire VLRA transmission in the middle of the deepest bush. In short: the things are unbeatable, and unbreakable. My point ? There are many, many scenarios where, as the USMC must have concluded, a good vehicle can be replaced by nothing else.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
You, sir, have most obviously never been a soldier, and speak shit.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
How are we going to colonize the planet Irata now?
God damn you idiots. Make it electrical and just have 3 soldiers carry the battery.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
I'm afraid he must not know any Marines. We'd move the rocks and bridge the ditch if needed. If there's a few things a few Marines and a box of spare parts can get accomplished it is both explosions and landscaping work. We have an entrenching tool. In fact, pretty much all of us have one.
A ditch or a rock? Heh... Yes. That's gonna stop a bunch of angry (or bored) Marines - dead in their tracks and they'll have no idea how to proceed. ;-)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
A good vehicle will save your life and allow you to get your job done - while not being a source of problems. The problems with the HMMWV is that we've attempted to use them for things they were not designed for, it turns out that they're not bad at those new tasks after they've been given additional armor. It's a highly mobile, multi-purpose, wheeled vehicle. It's not a specialist anything and not ideal for any one task.
I was excited to read that I can actually purchase one that has gone to the auction. I've just not found one in the condition that I like and at a price that I like. I'm being rather picky - I've looked at two so far but the engine was nearing its end, the running gear was trashed, and I'd have basically had to replace everything but the body. They still wanted $30,000 for it. I found one less expensive and in better shape but, alas, that crawled so I knew the frame was bent and it is possible to straighten it (even without a jig - you can do it in the field with another HMMWV, chain, and a tree) I didn't want to go through that and risk the damage.
That said... The deep water fording kit is just too much fun. Basically, you mount a snorkel so the engine can still breathe. Then, from there, you shift into low and climb up on the seat and hunch over. You put your feet on the steering wheel and steer with them. So long as your still able to breathe, the engine is able to breathe. It's a whole bowl of fun. You're also cross-trained to use anything equipped so you get to man the .50. There's something to be said for that kind of activity. You're throwing half-inch sized chunks of lead 1000 yards downrange.
The vehicle you linked - it looks *very* utilitarian. I imagine that the Perkins is a good choice with lots of torque. I don't recall having seen that specific vehicle in my travels but I'm pretty sure I've seen something similar. It may have been one of those and I didn't notice or pay enough attention. I've done exercises with NATO and was out with the UN so it's not entirely unlikely that I saw one. I dare say, good fun could be had in that.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I'm assuming you're also the other AC who posted at about the same time. The VRLA looks absolutely fascinating and, when I get back home, I'll look into seeing if any have been imported into my country and might be either at auction, private sale, or coming up for sale - where I might be able to coerce someone into letting me test it.
That's an impressive range. I'll mention that the HMMWV can run on pretty much anything - including 80 proof vodka. It also runs slightly better on 110 proof. Yes, yes I know this first hand. ;-) It too is diesel. It's a load of fun.
Most HMMWVs are either in a convoy or paired up. There's a variety of reasons for this but one of the biggest is the cannibalization factor. Coupled with the nature of the beast, it's nearly impossible to get one stuck if you have a second one handy. I can attest, they are nearly impossible to get stuck - if you do get one stuck then you need to get something like a tank retriever out there to extract it. (I don't really consider it stuck while there's still the chance for the second one to pull it out. That's just temporarily halted.)
As a multi-purpose vehicle, it's hard to not show my biases, it's very good. It's exceptional but there are others that are equally as nice - I'm sure. They'll all have certain benefits and certain problems. I can not, unfortunately, own them all - but I'd certainly like to. I just lack room and wouldn't be able to put them all to use. I have a whole bevy full of automobiles and each one gets used, even if just for specific purposes.
The range on an HMMWV is, IIRC, about 400 km (250 miles, as I recall) but you can extend the range by carrying additional fuel. 1200 km is impressive! I could see that coming in *very* handy. They don't look to have the same clearance, same tipping point, and protection from ground obstacles but they do look beautiful in their own right. They look like they're rugged as all hell. I saw a video of one (I went looking after the earlier post) and was impressed with it out in the desert. It'd be nice if they could deflate and inflate the tires on the go but that's not really required - someone mentioned that they have a compressor on-board.
The tires look thinner - which may help in some areas. Believe it or not, thinner tires are often better in deep snow and certain kinds of mud. As they can be deflated then there's some benefit there. The compressor's a nice feature. It does look like lots of fun and like it's very functional. I kind of want one and will keep an eye out for the chance to test one and, perhaps, own one. Should I own one, I'll get a Legion flag or something and put it atop a mountain in the remote NW part of Maine and snap a picture or two. I'm sure they'll appreciate it - I'll even put the Marine Colors alongside it. Actually, I've a friend who served in the FFL - maybe I can get them to come with me and hold the flags? (I'll even let 'em hold the FFL colors higher than the USMC colors in one picture.)
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
Yeah, the HMMWV is famous for being able to run on booze - it's a story every soldier around the world knows. The VLRA can't do that, although it can run on kitchen oil; we never did that, as the smoke production is enormous. A Legion driver, having run out of fuel close to home after crossing a desert, was once ordered to pour the engine's oil into the tank. The VLRA reached home, sure enough. The thing has only very minor weaknesses. One of them are the standard issue, much too weak bulbs in the head lights: we always carried stronger ones from Europe when we went on a mission. Oh yes: the VLRA has no power steering. So after a turn, and especially after having hit a bump or a rock, the steering wheel comes spinning back at high speed. Has broken more thumbs than can be counted. Remedy: steer with 2 x 4 fingers only, keeping your thumbs in the air. I still drive my car (a Saab) that way. People don't understand why - except the very few ones who ever drove a VLRA, these people immediately "get" it.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
Yup. The thumbs NEVER wrap around the steering wheel. Ever. Thumbs out! Mine typically have the four finger wrapped around, to some extent, and the thumb resting or nearly resting on the front of the wheel. If you ever take an advanced driving class, like a racing school, they'll teach you the same thing. It's not unheard of for thumbs to actually get ripped off - or so I'm told.
A Saab, eh? I had (blown engine and just not bothered replacing it) a 900S Turbo set up to rally. It was complete with the roll cage, seats, five point harness, helmets, and the likes. I really need to tear it down, remove the skid plate, and salvage the cage. I could put a new engine in it but I'm actually considering a Quantum or Quatro instead.
Oddly, I was just having a conversation about this with another poster a day or so ago.
At any rate, no power steering is a good thing, in my humble opinion. If you have power steering and it breaks then it is actually more difficult to steer than a vehicle designed without it. It's an unnecessary point of failure. The HMMWV has power steering and it had some issues but they've ironed them out to the best of my knowledge. I'd have preferred that it be designed without it. If I recall correctly, it has backup lines and the steering ratio is not so high that it makes it too difficult should the pump fail. However, it has been a lot of years since then.
The lighting on the HMMWV wasn't the greatest either, now that I think about it. It wasn't terrible and we never brought extra bulbs with us. When they were covered with the blackout slits it was rather tough but other than that it was okay, I guess. It's not like they had high intensity discharge lamps like the BMWs or anything but they weren't too bad. You're also seated pretty high and the lights are fairly high off the ground so I guess I can't really complain.
I very much want to take one of these VLRAs for a spin. They look rugged and very utilitarian. They look like they might even make a fair weapons platform. Perhaps someone can modify one to fire frozen eggs? ;-) (I could so see that being mounted on a bar on the top. Even a swivel connection shouldn't be too hard to engineer.) With pre-filled cartridges, well... I'm pretty sure that, if done safely, there's no way that can not result in a good time.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."