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EU Companies Can Monitor Employees' Private Conversations While At Work (softpedia.com)

An anonymous reader writes: A recent ruling of the European Court of Human Rights has granted EU companies the right to monitor and log private conversations that employees have at work while using the employer's devices. The ruling came after a Romanian was fired for using Yahoo Messenger back in 2007, while at work, to have private conversations with his girlfriend. He argued that his employer was breaking his right for privacy and correspondence. Both Romanian and European courts disagreed.

36 of 127 comments (clear)

  1. It's your company's equipment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you want to argue with your girlfriend, use your own cellphone. Jesus.

    1. Re:It's your company's equipment by greenfruitsalad · · Score: 3, Interesting

      warning: may seem sexist but it's my experience

      in my experience, it was always the women who used company email for private communication. as a former admin of such things, it annoyed the hell out of me. whenever a new employee took over an old mailbox (with a new name alias), they had to (for years) deal with stupid emails about - Mindy's wedding, Georgina's ugly baby, meet me for coffee beautiful, my period is late, etc. i never understood why they did it. they were always told to keep their mailboxes in a condition that would allow other people to use them in their absence, yet without exception, they treated their mailboxes like personal property and cursed me to hell for letting other people access their emails. i hated that job. people... what a bunch of bastards.

    2. Re:It's your company's equipment by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      Shouldn't changing the alias to the mailbox have kept anyone from the previous user from being able to reach that inbox? Or were your employees stupid enough to give out their email to their friends as "support@evil.org"?

    3. Re:It's your company's equipment by Carewolf · · Score: 2

      If you want to argue with your girlfriend, use your own cellphone. Jesus.

      Funny enough. Contrary to the misreported article. Using company email and telephone for private affairs is legal in most EU countries, and the company is NOT allowed to intercept or snoop on it in any way. But apparently not in Romania, and the non-EU human rights court does not think it needs to override Romanian law on the issue.

    4. Re:It's your company's equipment by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Interesting. And would you feel the same way about someone who was fired for having AIDS because they were talking with their doctor on the only phone available to them, the one in the office?

      Well, that's kind of a ridiculous argument, a non-sequitur. Employers by and large do not care if you use office equipment to do a call to your wife or doctor, or to do online banking during your lunch break at your cubicle. They care when people continuously abuse it - constantly chatting with your girlfriend, or for watching pr0n, or using the printer constantly to print brochures for your on-the-side job.

      Things like that. That is what both rulings are about. But hey, feel free to believe your slippery-slope hypothetical of one person not having a cell phone and having to use the one and only office phone for a life-n-death event intercepted by the mythical pointy-haired chupacabra boss actually applies to this case.

    5. Re:It's your company's equipment by greenfruitsalad · · Score: 2

      because logic. if email bounces and potential customer has to take additional steps to reach us, they are likely to open up a browser and research alternatives.

      instead, email will reach us anyway (old aliases are still in place) and a new person will respond and introduce her/himself as their new account manager.

    6. Re:It's your company's equipment by GrumpySteen · · Score: 2

      In the 80s and 90s being fired for having AIDS was an issue; but I really hope it isn't now.

      Let me crush those hopes for you.

  2. Well Duh! by thechemic · · Score: 4, Insightful

    9 years later, we have a court ruling on common sense.

    --
    Let's make like a bird... and get the flock outta here.
    1. Re:Well Duh! by killkillkill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If they liked the guy's work they wouldn't have fired him. It was probably only a contributing factor and a convenient reason to put on the HR form.

    2. Re:Well Duh! by alex67500 · · Score: 2

      Probably just an excuse to fire a worker that wasn't doing his job...

    3. Re:Well Duh! by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 4, Informative

      You can't even be bothered to read the submission above?

      The court case wasn't if he was fired for "wasting time", it was whether the company has the right to monitor what happens on their own computer systems.

      As for how much time he wasted, for all you know he spent half the day talking to his girlfriend. I doubt it was simply a quick 5-minute chat during a mid-morning break.

      --
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    4. Re:Well Duh! by phishybongwaters · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because you agreed to an acceptable use policy when using that companies equipment and services, this includes but is not limited to, your workstation and NETWORK. Sorry, you already agreed to whatever terms they decide to implement. You don't watch porn on your work machine and network, do you? You don't pirate software on your companies computer do you? Why? Because it's morally objectionable, or more to the point, because you know it's wrong and an improper use of the equipment and services. The only person complaining about this is the person wanting to get paid to sext and snapchat.

    5. Re:Well Duh! by kelemvor4 · · Score: 2

      Nonsense.

      Don't like my work? Fire me.

      If I get the work done, it's none of your business whether I am wasting time chatting with my girlfriend or drinking coffee or smoking. Why is it okay to fire people for the former but not for the latter? I don't drink coffee or smoke, and every day I watch people waste almost a full hour doing the latter.

      If you use company equipment to chat with your girlfriend, it is the companies' business. Didn't you read the summary?

      That said, you're right. If what you say is true, you should be fired. Save them the trouble and quit.

    6. Re:Well Duh! by kelemvor4 · · Score: 3, Informative

      How is it common sense that it's allowed to record and log a private conversation without prior consent? Even call centers have to let you know you are being recorded, why can an employer do it without consent?

      Company equipment or not, I don't think it's ok to record my conversation without my consent or knowledge.

      If it's in my contract, fine. I signed that and it's now with my consent.

      If my employer doesn't want me to use the equipment for private conversations, let me know or fire me. Don't just violate my rights.

      Court or not, this is unacceptable in my opinion.

      The call center isn't notifying their employee that the conversation is being monitored. That's a given. They're notifying the "customer" on the other end of the line that the conversation is being monitored. It's not forced on you, you can find another job where you are not provided computers and telephones. Then you won't have to worry about it. For example, if you get a job digging ditches, they probably won't be monitoring your shovel.

    7. Re:Well Duh! by prunus.avium · · Score: 2

      It's about expectation of privacy.

      Let's take the equipment out of the equation and make it a face-to-face conversation. If you are in a public place like a store, or restaurant, or a company's office, there is no "expectation of privacy" since you are in a location that other people can access and any conversation could be overheard or recorded. This is why the police can record conversations that happen in the street but need a warrant to plant a bug or tap your phone line.

    8. Re:Well Duh! by tnk1 · · Score: 2

      Three things.

      First, internal networks are managed by your company and their network admins. The network admins will inspect traffic to ensure that the network is working properly and there are no attacks or other bad behavior going on which reduces the usefulness of their network resources. You have zero expectation of privacy over a corporate network because there is no way that they can afford to give you any. If the network admins are trying to do their jobs and you have a "private" conversation on their equipment, then they could get in trouble for accidentally coming across your "private conversation" if that was not allowable. That's ridiculous.

      Second, having these sorts of conversations over company networks opens the company to intrusion by law enforcement and other groups who may decide to force your company into supporting their investigation, thus tying up valuable administrator time in fetching logs and other fun hassles. Did your employee threaten his girlfriend which resulted in abuse complaints?

      Third, and more directly job related. In certain jobs, no one cares what you do, as long as you get your tasks done in a certain amount of time.

      However, what if I had an employee who told me that he absolutely could not do two tasks because those tasks just took way too much time to do, so he could only do one? Then what happens when I discover he spends four hours a day chatting and arguing with his girlfriend? And what if I discovered he was not only not doing his job, but being an asshole to his girlfriend? Sure, I don't get to make decisions on his personal life, but if he's a) not doing his work and b) an asshole to boot, then I don't care to have this person work for me. He's irresponsible and an asshole. And he clearly has no boundaries.

      Trust me, I know people have personal conversations at work. I have as well, although I have strongly encouraged my friends and family to not call me to make chit chat at work. However, there has to be a limit, and there are jobs where your time at work is actually money. Keep it to a minimum and keep it on your personal devices.

    9. Re:Well Duh! by jandersen · · Score: 2

      Company equipment or not, I don't think it's ok to record my conversation without my consent or knowledge.

      Privacy is something you have a right to in your own home, really. Not that I necessarily agree, but that's he way it is - the employers argument is that you are not only using their resources to do it, but any communications can, in principle, be traced back to the company, so in the extreme case the company could end up somehow being associated with something they do not agree with. A bit like using company letterhead for your private letters. No, I don't like it either.

    10. Re:Well Duh! by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      How is it common sense that it's allowed to record and log a private conversation without prior consent?

      If you want private, use your own device. Do it from home. Or use encryption they can't bypass.

      But I haven't seen a company in years which didn't say "we can and will monitor what happens on OUR equipment, and if you don't like it TOO BAD".

      It has been upheld in a lot of places already that when you use your employer's equipment, you play by their rules.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    11. Re:Well Duh! by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      How is it common sense that it's allowed to record and log a private conversation without prior consent?

      Company equipment on company time for company business it stands to reason that it is being recorded. In case you didn't know your internet access is logged too.

      Even call centers have to let you know you are being recorded, why can an employer do it without consent?

      When you get called by a call centre or call one, it's not your personal equipment doing the monitoring. You aren't borrowing someone else's equipment doing stuff for them on their time.

    12. Re:Well Duh! by jabuzz · · Score: 2

      The case in question from which the ruling refers to, the employer used a "work" account for personal messages. Anyone who thinks they would have any right to privacy in that case is a moron.

      See the following for a case summary in fairly easy to read English.

      http://us6.campaign-archive2.c...

      Basics are use my work account for personal correspondence and your employer is entitled to look at anything and everything in that work account. If you want your correspondence to be private then use a private account don't use a work account.

  3. Monitor by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is it enough to RTFA to discover whether he was fired for the having non work related conversations during work or for the actual content of those conversations?

    Because I see some difference between monitoring the activity and monitoring the content.

    1. Re:Monitor by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 4, Informative

      I just read the first link above, and it seems to be just the activity itself, not specifically any "inappropriate" content such as phone-sex.

      But it also didn't say how much of the workday he spent talking to his girlfriend. I would assume it was quite a bit, since he went out of his way to avoid the employer's messenger account, and used his own which he figured was safe from monitoring. If it was simply a message here and there, why fire him? It was probably dozens of messages all day long.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    2. Re:Monitor by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

      He was using a company provided email account to discuss his STDs with his girlfriend. The company policy was not to use the company email account for personal business, and it was in his contract. They asked him if he was using it for private use, he said no, they checked and found he was so fired him. He complained that it was an intrusion on his right to privacy (which is a human right in the EU), but the court felt that as it was a company computer and email account he couldn't expect privacy.

      It's all down to the use of his employer's property.

      --
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    3. Re:Monitor by jabuzz · · Score: 2

      He was fired for using a work related account that should have been used exclusively for work related activities for personal communication. He was fired because the firm felt he should not be using a company account for private messages.

      He tried to argue that the company should not have been looking at the contents of a work account, and the ECHR has ruled that argument is nonsense.

      Oh and by the way the ECHR has *NOTHING WHATSOEVER* to do with the EU. I see Slashdot editors are as bad as the Daily Mail.

  4. Time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have no problem with some using work equipment for talking to his girlfriend, but if your employer shows a 45-page report of your conversations I think they were trying to say "get off Yahoo Messenger and do some work dammit!" It depends on the time you waste IMHO

  5. Wait... by EmeraldBot · · Score: 5, Informative

    Before everybody gets in a big huff, this applies only to devices the employer owns and lets employees use, not personal devices employees bring to work. The title here is slanted and a little misleading...

    --
    "Set a man a fire, he'll be warm for the rest of the night. Set a man afire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
    1. Re:Wait... by EzInKy · · Score: 4, Informative

      That too was addressed in the ruling. From TFA:

      "The ruling also said that, from now onwards, companies should also explain and notify employees if they monitor and log all their Internet activities, and they should also get consent from the employee in writing."

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    2. Re:Wait... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's common sense. If you are using your employer's network even with your own device, it's monitored and you should have no expectation of privacy. If you have difficulty understanding why businesses monitor their own network, then you may have limited career growth.

    3. Re:Wait... by phishybongwaters · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well you could, and I do, argue this extends to the network, so if you are on your personal device but using THEIR network, the ruling still applies. That said, I really doubt this gives them the right to break encryption or demand the keys. It's not the content of the discussion really, it's about the wasted time they got paid for.

  6. That, and with contractual agreement not to use th by demon+driver · · Score: 5, Informative

    The information presented here is, indeed, grossly miseading. There is no such thing as an employer's right to monitor private communications in the EU; on the contrary, at leastmin some European countries, like, say, Germany, illegitimately monitoring an employee's private communocation may actually land someone in jail.

  7. Don't be an idiot. by penguinoid · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Don't use your company's email or other stuff for personal business. It's unprofessional, and you might get your personal communications subpoenaed should your company be involved in a court case.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  8. Re:That, and with contractual agreement not to use by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Most international and US domestic employees include clauses in the employee contract that explicitly permit company monitoring of content on work owned or devices, including work owned telephones and networks. There is effectively no "private communication" on your corporate laptop or machines you use for work.

  9. Misreported by CAPSLOCK2000 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    All reports miss an important part.
    Nobody went out to look at this guys private messages. During the course of an investigation into his performance at work some private messages were discovered. He argued that this alone was a violation of his privacy. The judge decided that the employer did the right thing. The employer was not intentionally looking for private messages and he did not read them when he discovered they were of a private nature.

    This is not a cart-blanche to spy on employee's.

  10. Misleading headline by Kilobug · · Score: 4, Informative

    As some already reported, this is a highly misleading headlines.

    1. It's not EU, but ECHR, so much wider (it includes non-EU countries such as Russia or Turkey).

    2. The ECHR sets a minimal amount of human rights protection, not a maximal one - ECHR saying "we don't have any objection about it" doesn't mean it's legal in all ECHR countries, national government can pass higher levels of protection if they want.

    3. The ruling itself doesn't say "it's all fine to spy on employees in general", it said that in that specific case it's fine - it was a work mail account (not a private one), ...

    I advise you to read http://modulus.isonomia.net/la... for example, that gives a more detailed analysis on the ruling and reporting of it.

  11. Re:That, and with contractual agreement not to use by gsnedders · · Score: 2

    In short, the court found that the right to privacy (in the European Convention of Human Rights) is not breached by a law that permits companies monitoring communications from their equipment. This means that the Romanian law (that permits such monitoring) complies with the treaty. The German law (which, AIUI, forbids such monitoring) obviously complies with the treaty because it doesn't permit others to read personal correspondence.

  12. Re:That, and with contractual agreement not to use by Carewolf · · Score: 2

    Most international and US domestic employees include clauses in the employee contract that explicitly permit company monitoring of content on work owned or devices, including work owned telephones and networks. There is effectively no "private communication" on your corporate laptop or machines you use for work.

    And those clauses would in invalid in Germany and many other countries and any company trying to enforce it would be commiting crimes.