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What Spotlighting Harassment In Astronomy Means
StartsWithABang writes: Geoff Marcy. Tim Slater. Christian Ott. And a great many more who are just waiting to be publicly exposed for what they've done (and in many cases, are still doing). Does it mean that astronomy has a harassment problem? Of course it does, but that's not the real story. The real story is that, for the first time, an entire academic field is recognizing a widespread problem, taking steps to change its policies, and is beginning to support the victims, rather than the senior, more famous, more prestigious perpetrators. Astronomy is the just start; hopefully physics, computer science, engineering, philosophy and economics are next.
I'm an astrologer and I frequently encounter harassment from mainstream astronomers and academics, so it swings both ways.
Who are these people? Why did you separate a list of names with periods?
What did they (allegedly) do? How do you know there are "a great many more" who have done, and are still doing, the same?
For bonus points:
When were these things done?
Where were they done?
Why? How?
FUCK!
"hopefully physics, computer science, engineering, philosophy and economics are next."
Don't you really mean, "hopefully this is only a problem with astronomy and no matter how deep we dig we will not find this issue in any other field"? Do you really hope this issue is widespread?
Simple solution .. castrate everyone who whines about SJWs.
I would retort that we need to castrate all SJW's instead. But judging from the way SJW males act, I'd venture to guess that they've already been castrated.
His conduct was unwelcome to me! BURN THE WITCH!!
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Published on Jun 22, 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Well, you know what to do next time someone tells you to check your privilege -- by which they mean "shut up, independent white male". That kind of aggression is primarily based on race, sex, and ability.
So, how does this whole SJW thing work ... the world is divided into raging fanatics who want a nicer world, and assholes who want to preserve their right to act like assholes?
I'm a little unclear on the concept.
Mostly it seems to be a bunch of guys whining they can't act like ignorant douchebags without consequences.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
So, the last link is for the Starts With A Bang blog, which is on forbes.com. They have their silly "turn off adblock" policy, so I don't get to read it because I use Ghostery. Not reading this particular blog is not a huge loss for me, after all it's a speck of dust in an infinite internet universe of interesting stuff. When enough feel like I do, it'll be a much bigger loss for the blog, and indeed for Forbes.
It's kind of sad when smart people implement dumb solutions.
Yes, for the the snowflakes who consider the sentence "I disagree with you" to be hate speech, I must be a monster.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Mod parent down.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Does harassment exist? Sure they do. So do sociopaths, thieves and other lowlife scum. However, I remain unconvinced that this is any sort of widespread problem. More than thirty years in tech, and I have yet to see first-hand, or hear second-hand, of one, single harassment case. I read about incidents in the news, but like weird accidents, they seem to make the news precisely because they are unusual.
The people pushing this stuff claim to be helping women. In actual fact, they couldn't hurt women more if they tried. In a professional context, men actively avoid meeting one-on-one with women. Two people need to talk about a project? If it's a man and a woman, the man (if he has a brain) will refuse to meet anywhere but a public space. No man will mentor a women, for fear of being accused of ulterior motives. Male-dominated teams actively avoid hiring women, because doing so risks unfounded harassment complaints, gender discrimination lawsuits, etc..
Remember: StartsWithABang submits articles for the sole purpose of driving traffic to his own articles on FORBES. Forbes is unworthy both for supporting content like this, and for their aggressive pro-malware stance for adblock suppression.
Mostly it seems to be a bunch of guys whining they can't act like ignorant douchebags without consequences.
Funny, you don't seem unclear about it at all.
What harassment? Sexual? Physical? Racial?
You can't just go on about something you haven't even told us about yet.
It's gender discrimination the editor was talking about by the way. You have to be clear in these situations because every special snowflake is being "discriminated against" in some way either because the way someone fucking sits or because someone doesn't automatically know they are a genderfluid, cross horse/dragonkin from Planet Zarblox X and are only attracted to slightly rounded triangles.
It's a good thing that problems like this are being tackled, but nowadays I'm always skeptic when people start trying to make a deal of it because most of the time it's someone being over sensitive because they wore cat ears and a tail to a job interview and yell "DISCRIMINATION" or "CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE" when they don't get the job.
That's what SJW's have done to actual battles for equality: they've bastardized it and made it less than it actually is by yelling louder than the people who experience the ass slaps or slurs or unprofessional jokes.
Everyone's so eager to be offended.
slashdot, can we focus on stuff that matters to nerds and dispense with the SJW fridays, please??
thank you.
Too bad it's on Forbes and there is no way I will turn off my adblockers to view the page.
It should be investigated in all scientific disciplines. The more theoretic a field is, the greater the chances of "appealing to authority".
Click here to find out what happens next! The answers will shock you! -Ethan
I tell a woman I like her new haircut? Nope - that can be taken as a sexual advance - lawsuit time.
Yeah, but if you don't talk to her, then you're excluding her--which is also harassment.
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
Well, you see, son, there's this group that raised a bunch of strawmen, and a group that didn't like being picked on by that one group created strawmen of their own, and every so often one side puts their strawman up in a field and demands highway travelers just passing through to help burn down their strawman, to show those guys over there how awful they are, and they should repent.
And then the other side sees this, flags down the traveler, and says "yeah, their strawman sucks, but here, burn down ours; it'll make you feel better about that strawman since that other strawman there was a commentary about YOU, friendly and possibly disenfranchised traveler."
Said traveler raises brows, alarmed, mutters, "Not my circus, not my monkeys" and promptly floors the pedal.
Both sides are filled with first-world-problem-ridden douchebags that want to act like ignorant assholes without being called on it. Both sides think they're doing the right thing.
Everyone else ain't got time for this shit, until it invades their space.
Oh, look, it's time to gather straw. Anyone got a few extra flannel shirts lying around?
Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
At the very least, it was written in a "clarity, logic, and grammar are optional" field of some sort.
Is soulskill posting these angrily while coming down between crack cocaine hits?
No, the problem is that StartsWithABang was foaming at the mouth when he typed it, which caused his keyboard to malfunction and spew all this garbage into the text box.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
Mars' surface is red, not the atmosphere which is practically invisible since it is so low pressure.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
You mean the comment to your coworker that "The view of Uranus is lovely tonight!" is no longer considered appropriate? Kill joys!
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Just so you know, the relentless barrage of articles about alleged rampant harassment in science and technology is harassment of your main audience. If you want Slashdot to be a feminist blog, just say so. I think the appropriate warning is: Careful what you wish for. I have cancelled decade-long subscriptions to magazines which thought it wise to "expand" their audience by sucking up to the feminist agenda.
Well, we can make some fresh popcorn for you as soon as we start a fire.
Here, have a match, friendly traveler.
Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
Bullshit. We're all allowed emotions. Harassment is when you let your emotions affect your actions and disregard the feelings of others.
Yeah, but how else would Slashdot get clicks for internet drama?
Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
Perhaps you are not clear about what harassment is?
If you take a little bit of Google for a moment, you learn that harassment is "aggressive pressure or intimidation".
Your definition is too broad. Perhaps some people like it that way, but not me. I like words to mean specific and precise things so that when I bring my case to the law, they know exactly how actionable it is, and so that justice is appropriately served, and so that nobody can misuse the law against me with too broad a definition.
I might "disregard" your feelings and call you an ignorant jerk. But that isn't harassment. At least I hope so. I don't know anymore.
Some people don't believe in fairies. I don't believe in The Patriarchy.
Bullshit. We're all allowed emotions. Harassment is when you let your emotions affect your actions and disregard the feelings of others.
Your feelings are no one's problem but your own. Any time you find yourself about to say "you made me feel", stop, and shut up before you proclaim your immaturity to the world.
If you think there's something wrong with a professor realizing he's on dangerous ground, and has either lost objectivity about, or might begin actually sexually harassing a student, and stepping out of the adviser role, WTF? It's exactly the right behavior - better to not fall for the wrong person, but humanity has never found a solution to that problem.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
That's not how most sane, non-SJW's define it.
That's how it's been defined in private industry for decades (although it has eased off a bit in recent years).
If a member of a protected class feels threatened or uncomfortable, they were harassed. Period. Should I tell a woman I like her new haircut? Nope - that can be taken as a sexual advance - lawsuit time.
You're not making any argument that this is a sane definition. But maybe you knew that.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Wow. Weird. Why would someone quit after being mentored by you?
Let me help!
So, we probably agree that sexism, racism, and sexual harassment are still big problems in 2016. We can observe that the listed professions are predominantly male.
Two options immediately come to me. I'm sure there are more.
#1: Reach out to members of those professions and ask them why they went into it and what they think might interest more women to choose those professions. Work with high schools and middle schools to interest teenage girls in those professions. Work with elementary schools to deal with the complex problem internalized misogyny presents and try to prevent teachers at that stage from subconsciously turning girls off to maths and science. I'm sure there's a lot more work that needs to be done in addition, but I am confident that within two generations, this will be a solved problem.
Silly me. There I am thinking rationally.
(Note: Please do not get your knee jerking. I'm sure there are people engaged in #1. I'm one of them. I'm about to explain the mindset behind several times I've been on the receiving end of sexism and racism from both men and women.)
#2: Sexism, racism, and sexual harassment are bad things. People who have white skin tend to be racist. People who were assigned the male gender at birth engage in sexual harassment. Therefore, all whites assigned the male gender at birth are guilty of sexism, racism, and sexual harassment. Oh, and remember that "two wrongs make a right" is an axiom in this approach.
This is the important part of #2 and how it's guaranteed to solve the problem posthaste! Keep your eyes out! See somebody who's programming? Send over somebody who will be completely hopeless at learning it and have her go "I wanna be a programmer." Then when he fails, call him sexist to his face. Make sure he understand that software wouldn't have bug if filthy men like him weren't keeping women out of the field.
That's one technique. There are many more. Let's explore microaggressions: if somebody is doing something that is making me sufficiently uncomfortable, I might ask them to stop. It's a bit awkward, but usually they do and we move on. What we see here in this article, however, is the internet lynch mob approach. If somebody does something that makes you feel uncomfortable, send an internet lynch mob after them!
Hope that helped. Some people who are sexist merely use "fighting sexism" as an excuse to display their sexism.
So, how does this whole SJW thing work ...
Ask the women of Cologne. They may have some insight about the workings of social justice.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
"Simple solution .. castrate everyone who thinks they are a SJW.
They already act like a bunch of whiny punks with no balls anyway, and this way they won't procreate."
There. Fixed that for ya,
They are all trans anyway so they'll end up doing it to themselves just to fit into their own crowd!
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
So, how does this whole SJW thing work
Well, here's a little primer.
1. Spend some time perusing various forums, focus on the ones which appear to be mostly filled with Rabid Trolls and general Dipshits.
2. Find some sort of social or political issue which really Grinds Your Gears. Note that this does not actually have to be a REAL issue... in fact it can help your Cause if it's not.
3. Take offense at this issue... not just a little offense, you need it to be a Deeply Personal Offense. You MUST also take offense on behalf of everyone else, this is not an optional item.
4. Spend a great deal of time locating any and every story, article, blog post, etc. which might possibly relate to this issue. Note that such articles do not actually have to have anything at all to do with the issue. In fact, it will help you achieve SJW status if they do not.
5. Proceed to use the same Trolling tactics and posting styles you have observed in Step 1, to saturate as many forums, comment sections, etc. as possible.
6. If anybody even appears to disagree with your position, you MUST immediately launch a barrage of counter-posts. Use of Ad Hominem attacks and construction of Straw Men is an absolutely critical requirement.
7. Defend the Victims at all times. Any attempt to discuss ways to prevent becoming a victim MUST be met with the standard "Don't Blame the Victim" response.
Congratulations, you are now well on your way to becoming a Certified Social Justice Warrior! Just a couple more items to ensure that you reach this Elite status:
- You need to be sure that you don't actually DO anything in real life to advance your cause. Your Cause and your Duty is to fire a steady stream of virtual 'smack-downs' to random people on the Internet.
- Avoid Reasoned discussion at ALL times. Critical thinking, or accepting any position other than a solid Black/White divide on an issue, is absolutely forbidden.
- Remember, You are always right, because your Cause is Just! Anyone who cannot see this is always wrong. If they agree with you, it's a clever ploy to throw you off your stride, do not fall for this deception!
- Women are always Oppressed, and Men are the Evil.
- Fat is Beautiful, anyone who thinks otherwise is Body Shaming and MUST be hit hard. Unless the fat person is a man, in which case that disgusting pig needs to hit the gym instead of his wife.
- The only exception to the last two points is if the person is Transgender. All Transgender people are always the Victims.
I read "What Spotlighting Harassment in Astronomy Means" to say they were going to explain some harassment of astronomers by people with spotlights.
The headline should have said something about Sexual harassment, and "Implications of ..." rather than "What ... Means".
Is the headline's author not a native speaker of English?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Really? Because the majority of people who are accused of being horrible evil SJW scum
Did you, or did you not see his qualification that sometimes the "perception" is actuality and sometimes it's imaginary.
He didn't use a qualifier like "there people always..."
As for your supposition that "the majority of people".
I'd ask you to actually support this claim. So long as it doesn't anger you to the point of starting an SJW movement to persecute people who ask for tangible proof of ass-pull statistics.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Does it mean that astronomy has a harassment problem? Of course it does
Does it?
Or does it just mean that some people have a "harassment problem" and that by the law of averages some of them will work in astronomy, or engineering, or botany...
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
When a woman tells me she likes my hair, I don't usually take it as a sexual advance unless she is trying to touch it in which case I find this awkward and a little uncomfortable. Most times it turns into a conversation about hair care products although not always.
I have long hair and have no problem talking about how I keep it or what unmanly products I have to use to make it shiny. I've never complained that a woman sexually harassed me but probably should have on a couple occasions.
I dunno about that. I worked a menial factory job and had my ass grabbed and hand put down my pants at work.
Thankfully, they fired the jerk who did that and it was the end of the story. No front page stories, no media, no anything, because nobody is trying to make a narrative out of manufacturing not being sufficiently political, so there's no incentive to create 5 minute hates every week and rage if someone doesn't want to participate.
I would like to report that when I reported a gaslighting asshole manager for sexual harassment, I was not wrapped up in a generalization about angry MRAs, even though there are several topics, especially ending male infant genital mutilation, about which I am an angry MRA myself.
Instead what happened was that the company faithfully followed up on the complaint, the gaslighting asshole wratcheted up the psychological abuse, and the talented young female coder who was being harassed quit. :(
We call them "School Directors" over here.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
And therefore proving that you said it so that's you.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Simple solution .. castrate everyone who whines about SJWs.
They already act like a bunch of whiny punks with no balls anyway, and this way they won't procreate.
Can I get medical care finally??? Is this for free and just because I complain about SJWs?
Please! Where do I apply?! Me first!
Or do I need to threaten to procreate first?
I was not wrapped up in a generalization about angry MRAs, even though there are several topics, especially ending male infant genital mutilation, about which I am an angry MRA myself.
Holy crap, that came out wrong. I don't even know what I was going for. Maybe I meant something like:
I was not accused of ridiculous crap by angry MRAs, perhaps because there are several topics, especially ending male infant genital mutilation, about which I am an angry MRA myself.
and assholes who want to preserve their right to act like assholes?
Those are the SJWs, right? They regularly make it pretty clear that they consider assholishness perfectly OK as long as it's directed towards people they hate.
Did anyone read this article?. "Geoff Marcy, a leader in the field of exoplanet research, has resigned from his position as a professor of astronomy at the University of California, Berkeley, following an investigation that found he violated the school's sexual harassment policies."
Or how about this one? "Results from a recent AAS survey were reported at the last week's plenary session on harassment, defined as unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability or genetic information. Some 82% of astronomers have heard sexist remarks from their peers; 44% heard sexist remarks from supervisors; 9% experienced physical harassment from peers or supervisors."
Those articles do not read like SJWs and the do seem to indicate some sort of a problem.
I read the whole story summary and I still don't know what "spotlighting harassment" means, in astronomy or anywhere else. I assumed it meant preventing people from engaging in astronomy by shining bright lights or something, but then other fields are mentioned.
Maybe the linked articles explain it, but from the summary it doesn't sound like they do.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Atmospherist!
/ Triggered
Harassment is everything said, done after you have been told No or stop.
"I'm sorry , you haven't done any of the work, I have to fail you for this class."
No. Stop.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
"I demand a safe space where I can act like an asshole."
Watch people's head explode.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
First of all, we should stop the harassment of astronomers and astrophysicists just because they wore tacky shirts in a press conference. Once we're satisfied that's been settled (say, 5 years with no incidents), we can start working on the rest.
Feelings are part of being human.
Just as important as any other aspect of humanity like traditional intelligence, other talents (that some call intelligences), personality, physical body aspects, sexuality, genetic makeup, etc.
Just as with any other offense, some actions against feelings are minor and others are outrageous, even rising to the level of violence. Violence is not just physical - it can be mental or emotional, or take any other form that can affect the complex being with multi sensory inputs and multi-state processing that human beings are.
It is inhuman to completely ignore others' feelings when checking your own behavior. Please try to be human, even if you have to fake it.
Disclaimer: I also restrain from giving female co-workers compliments for the same reason. I previously had great respect for one of the women who's called me sexist to my face and thought she was an intelligent, rational, worldly person. They're out there. It's a minefield. I'm hoping after I complete gender transition I will be able to compliment other women on their hair or dress (hint: a good way to do this is to ask where she bought a certain item).
Also, feminism at present seems to have declared war on me. Keep that in mind the next time you think feminism is on the side of trans folks. AmiMoJo will tell you differently, but it's definitely different where s/he is than it is here. I live within a day's drive of the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.
Anyway! On to the point.
Sometimes, bald-faced gender discrimination does happen. Guess where it comes from? Gaslighting asshole managers. Companies who employ and are directed by those gaslighting asshole managers need to be held accountable so they're less inclined to hire gaslighting asshole sexists.
Long story short, best hacker I knew got "outed" (she wasn't deep stealth and was open about it, just a certain gaslighting asshole manager hadn't heard about it yet) and then promptly fired. I'll bet the gaslighting asshole thought "What! A liberal SJW feminist tranny? In my business? He's really a man anyway, so no discrimination here. B&!" (She's also anything but SJW.)
Heh, I'll bet he crapped his pants when the letter from the lawyer noted that not only is being a woman a protected class, but in the jurisdiction there, gender identity is also protected.
Let me cast "Circle of Protection: MRAs, feminists, SJWs, and anti-SJWs" on my friend. It was my idea to start the lawsuit, and another one of her friends and I talked her into it.
So, in summary, the true tragedy of all this SJW Gish galloping is that cases of real, provable, illegal discrimination do happen but get lost in the noise and then swept up in a stereotype that these lawsuits are people just looking for an easy payday. Also, real, disgusting, creepy as fuck sexual harassment does happen, but it gets lost in the noise of microaggressions. The only way to deal with this is to find cases where it's actually happening, prosecute, and be prepared to blame the real culprits instead of nerds and geeks: gaslighting asshole managers.
That's the kind of mentality that leads to witchhunts and dark ages. Stable societies depend on free flow of the truth, regardless of how upsetting it might be to some.
Which story was this? I skimmed the articles, but didn't see this story described (and am far too lazy to actually read the articles in full).
Also, I don't know about whether punishment is fair, but it's certainly not fair to the student to ask them to find another advisor. An academic advisor isn't something you can change like a pair of shoes, and requiring a change can have an impact on your academic career.
If the man had serious problems with the idea of continuing working with her, that sounds like a mental problem on his part. Maybe the solution is to find the student another advisor, but to simply say "you're too sexy, out of luck" is the wrong way to frame it, even if it leads to the same outcome.
Last post!
Perhaps you are not clear about what harassment is?
If you take a little bit of Google for a moment, you learn that harassment is "aggressive pressure or intimidation".
....chomp....
Of interest to bystanders is that this is a spectrum issue.
For some "aggressive pressure or intimidation" is "good morning you
are looking good today".
i.e. what was a compliment is now an acknowledgement of other topics not related
to the work at hand.
Other bystanders ponder the astounding permutations of the modern world of LGBT+
where inclusion and exclusion are difficult to quantify for a laundry list of reasons the
least of which is Sex on employment records is binary M/F. It does not even address
the obvious question of Yes vs. No or NO vs. NFW.
Simply discussing the topic is harassing and intimidating to some.
Saying "no" is astoundingly difficult for some and saying no is a
cultural impossibility. In a class room it is no longer effective to ask
if anyone does not understand. "Does every one understand the last
chapter.... " Asking will not discover comprehension. Testing is the
only cultural option for some groups. Testing for sex related topics crosses
the line for some and is harassing for others.
Then there are other agenda... there are many that still go to school for their "Mrs".
Not all but a lot. Success in the Mrs. program often reaches into the rich pool
of proven smart graduate assistants. This is a mind set that even when not
considered in school becomes a biologic clock issue for some again org charts
separate the good, better, best candidates.
Visual clues are cultural.
Growing up "red" shoes" advertised a profession.
Around the world advertising of availability can be subtle and opaque
to those that do not know.. now what does a single ear ring in that
ear tell me? Visible ankle, calf, thigh, tramp stamp, long, short no sleeves.
Head covering is in the news but is unclear....
Yoga pants...
In my personal experience the most troubling abuses of power were
made by the wives of managers. No one pays attention to the power
struggle at home and the collateral damage in the work place.
BONUS: what is the most common matriarchal group in the US?
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
I read somewhere that the sexual harassment investigation was instigated by a fellow facility member at Berkeley. The head of some women's group who actively sought out students to make a complaint against Marcy. Yet another case of political correctness gone insane.
.. asked Oldham whether the university was doing all it could to address allegations involving sexual harassment of students by a faculty member" ref
"The 15 April 2011 complaint, the first in the documents, involves a witness report from someone who described Marcy rubbing the bare shoulder of a female undergraduate student"
"On 18 March 2014, someone writing from outside Berkeley
“There is a concern that protecting the campus may be a higher priority than addressing the problems” ref
Reading the title, I thought that "spotlighting harassment" literally meant shining bright spotlights where astronomers use their telescopes. Which is, I guess, an effective way to piss them off.
More than thirty years in tech, and I have yet to see first-hand, or hear second-hand, of one, single harassment case.
There is safety in posting as an anonymous coward. ---
But, to my ears, you describe a male-dominated workforce that has circled the wagons and s profoundly hostile and suspicious of women:
men actively avoid meeting one-on-one with women. Two people need to talk about a project? If it's a man and a woman, the man (if he has a brain) will refuse to meet anywhere but a public space. No man will mentor a women, for fear of being accused of ulterior motives. Male-dominated teams actively avoid hiring women, because doing so risks unfounded harassment complaints, gender discrimination lawsuits, etc..
You can't claim that all of this stuff is so unusual that it is newsworthy and then a paragraph afterwards say that it's so common that men everywhere are actively avoiding women. Pick a story and stick to it.
My own anecdote, btw, says that mild forms of discrimination happen relatively often in male-dominated professions (jokes, phrases, or inappropriate conversation) but that serious harassment is relatively rare (I've never seen it). On the other hand, most women I've worked with have been competent and reasonable - and a number of them tell dirtier jokes than the guys and nobody minds. The main rule seems to be Don't Be an Asshole and things will most likely work out fine unless you're fantastically unlucky.
One of the astronomers in that list was punished for realizing he had emotional feelings about a student and telling her to go seek another adviser.
You're leaving out the part where he also harassed a second student. She provided the school with chat logs and other correspondence where he said things like âoeDo you think I am a shady person because I let myself be emotionally involved with my student?â and âoeI think I may actually be prone to this sort of thing.â The guy knew he was in the wrong, but instead of correcting his own behavior, he just moved on to the next student he could harass the same way.
The university barred him from contact with students and forced him undergo rehabilitative training not to punish him, but because he was a lawsuit waiting to happen when he finally went too far.
Ye gods! Put a trigger warning next time, will ya?
Does it involve shining spotlights at astronomers? Wouldn't the perpetrators simply be fired?
Or you mean just "harassment". That is fairly well defined legally and is generally a crime, if you are the victim of harassment, then you should collect evidence and talk to the police.
And why the hell are the only sources between Forbes and CNN? Since when do they do anything scientific or actual news?
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
more social justice bullshit.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
Considering your posts are rated at -1, troll, it seems that they have proven you right.
You don't need microwave radiation to make popcorn, you retarded millennial one-chromosome-too-many dungdong.
Any heat source plus a wok/skillet works.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The "progressive" left. You know, the kind of people that participate in this kind of thing:
http://www.theguardian.com/sci...
Or will insult/exclude/harass you for being white or male, justified by their tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.
Where, specifically?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Clearly the blue-eyed bitches were insulting the prophet (PBUH) by dressing as decadent western whores.
They should all be sentenced to mandatory sensitivity training. Whose country do these dirty blonde slappers think it is?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I initially thought "Spotlighting" was as an adjective here qualifying harassment. So I was wondering if some group was harassing astronomers with spotlights clipping their sensors or something and being a nuisance.
Meaning that it must be ok to speak regardless of hurt feelings so that truth can be heard and false statements called out. I never said that no means yes. Of course, you're equating the former with people who think the latter, which is an ad hominem fallacy.
Funny. The other day someone on TV was saying that in America you still have the right to be obnoxious. Did he and I both miss the memo where Freedom of Speech is still Free, but only as long as you say the right things?"
A lot of it is internalized misogyny; that's one that SJWs will never fix.
Misandry is abound when every major news source can trumpet that we need to mutilate men's genitals /at birth/ because of a women's health issue, and simultaneously we were ringing our hands about whether vaccinating teenage girls to prevent that condition was sexualizing them inappropriately.
Kind of a mouth full, but that (in 2012) was just so "I can't even" that I still can't even.
Don't get me wrong. We've made gobs of progress if I can even consider seriously working as a woman in tech (more than likely will be burger flipping by my own choice as I've stated before).
There are no real barriers or glass ceilings anymore. That doesn't mean that the meatspace avatar doesn't matter way more than it should.
As for racism, I just roll my eyes anymore when white people bitch about property values and "there goes the neighborhood" when black people move in. Then there's that whole mess in Europe. Let's give the rapists a brand (the hot metal to the skin kind) or something and banhammer them instead of raving about how it's the fault of religion or skin color.
Hope that helps.
When I ask my gf if she wants to talk about something and she says no, I take it as a yes. Turns out she likes it that way. I get in trouble if I just say "oh ok" and move along.
Where? Reality. You should perhaps try to live there?
No there are some levels where it's gone quite far beyond "normal human beings". I knew a professor once that seemed to just hate women. He would tell female graduate students "why are you here and not at home having babies?" That's not normal human behavior. Of course he also berated male students as well, he was an equal opportunity hater. But students were reluctant to call him out or complain to others because this was a senior professor so he got away with it.
Except that people who perceive injustice are called SJWs before they've done anything about it, or called that when the only action they took was to point out that the injustice existed. There very act of perceiving injustice offends these anti-SJW-warriors.
Are you on drugs? Incoherent shit about something with gaslights and other crap including not understanding a simple fucking sentence?
The almost violent manner in which this pogrom against perverts is being prosecuted has caused some zealots to overlook the fact that even the perpetrators need help more than they need to be punished. However they do need to be controlled if they cannot control themselves.
Sure our entire society has an issue with how people interact, that is obvious, but a social maturing process should be achieved in a nurturing rather than a punitive manner. Not only do we need to educate potential perpetrators (which means, everyone) as to their responsibilities and where they can seek help with behavioural, control, issues, we also need to educate potential victims (again everyone) as to best cope with other people's conduct and how to seek help in correcting it before incidents progress to the point where the solution becomes destructive. The third part of this strategy is to ensure that the required support structures and processes are in place, that everyone is able to access them, and that they are comprehensive enough to ensure that nobody falls through the cracks and that all behavioural aberrations are identified and corrected as quickly and subtly as possible,
SJWs are mostly a "progressive e-penis contest" that spiraled into insanity.
Goes like "i'm complaining on twitter that people should not offend black people!", "oh yeah? i'm complaning on twitter that people should not offend black transsexual people!", "yeah? you two are small fishes, i'm complaning about all the microagressions against black transsexual disabled indian women that happens on campus!" and so forth.
You are way off base,and didn't answer my question. Again You were told no,stop. You continue, you are harassing the person. Period end of story. If you don't like that truth too bad really, tell it to the judge and jury. or maybe you need to read just what i was replying to in the manner i did to a statement someone else made..either way, your wrong.
Jack of all trades,master of none
I don't know your condition, but if it helps, your symptoms indicate cannabis flower. If you have a medical marijuana law available, I'd highly recommend at least giving it a shot. Some people are allergic, however. For others, cannabis flower can be the only thing that lets them regain their lives. I hope you're in the latter group.
Jupiter is just claiming that after harassing all ofthdeose asteroids, and keeping the from reaching better orbits . . . no-one wants to talk about this, but this "gas ceiling" is a real problem.
hawk
My apologies. Gaslighting derives from the title of the movie The Gas Lights. In a nutshell, it's a psychological abuse tactic that causes the victim to question their perception of reality and their sanity. Would you like to know more?
*raises hand*
Well, it was an honest mistake. I was presenting as male and he was trying to be buddy-buddy cums with me. For some reason it just creeped me the hell out. So I asked him to stop, and he did. Problem solved!
Ah, but when you agree with the Borg you must not clap as that is 'triggering' The Borg are sensitive to clapping. You must use 'jazz hands':
http://www.breitbart.com/londo...
And when a SJW tells you that disagreeing with them is rape, but you are a racist if you oppose traditional Muslim gang rape (Taharrush gamea) of 'infidel' girls, then you must also use jazz hands to show you are one with the SJW Borg Collective:
http://www.breitbart.com/londo...
#GamerGate invictus ! down with all Orwellian Thought Police SJWs !
They're gonna start running out of wells to poison pretty soon. I don't blame SJWs for this - they are just exploiting the environment - an environment is created by "moderates" and fence sitters that credulously give the benefit of the doubt to any loser with a wolf story - and enthusiastically dog-pile on any voices that dare to express skepticism. And these 'moderates" are for the most part stupid, well-meaning white males - that most demonised and despised of social demographics.
smilies are for reetards
Yes, but--to be fair--have you looked at what's actually in the shops these days? It's a bit challenging to buy non-micro popcorn when they're not selling any...
(Just got a new cast-iron wok, never thought to make popcorn in it, though. I'll have to give that a try. But see above.)
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
No seriously, fuck them all until they die of anal bleeding.
STEM is the last place that has people who are intelligent. Keep the retards that are into political correctness out of it.
Hey, you're the one flying off the handle assuming I don't think misandry is a huge problem.
Ok, first off, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing with internalized misogyny. What I'm referring to is the problem that people, men and women both, assume women are weak, frivolous, and inauthentic—basically everything traditional gender roles says men are not—a total, absolute, insane interpretation of gender as absolute negation.
Both men and women have internalized misogyny, but it surfaces in different ways. For example, if a man believes I'm a woman, he may offer to carry heavy things for me. If a woman assumes I'm a man, she may ask me to carry heavy things for her, even when she is clearly physically stronger than I.
Men with internalized misogyny are stupid, though, albeit mostly harmless. I wish they'd knock it off with their white knight stuff but I really don't mind until it turns into full blown SJW crap. However, when women show internalized misogyny, that's where we get into real trouble, because it represents everything that feminism tried (and failed) to change about the world while we're simultaneously unable to do anything about it.
When I was talking about internalized misogyny, I was talking about: women who pass on the "math is hard" and "computers are for boys" memes to impressionable young girls instead of a more Amazonian line of reasoning.
Have you ever tried arguing with a woman deep in internalized misogyny that maths are not hard and that computers are fucking not for boys only? Holy crap, she will get the entire office to hate you, and you'll just get called an all men sexist is you're a man.
That being said, let me point out some areas where we have severe problems with misandry. First, the fucking huge elephant in the room is ritual male genital mutilation. How many men have suffered pain and cannot have children because something went wrong? At least my skin doesn't tear and begin bleeding when I have an erection, but even still, I have no idea how I would live with the physical pain without the escape route of being trans and being on HRT.
Alimony, child support, limited aid for single fathers, losing children and the house in divorce, selective service, rape culture. These are all signs of the pervasive misandry.
This isn't about male vs. female to me. I've experienced first-hand as a man the way this world shits on men, and I continue to experience it every day since I'm legally male and am forced to present as the male gender to get a paycheck. I've experienced second-hand from the stories of trans women and the few west/east cost feminists who have given me a taste of things to come once I've completed transition. As somebody who lives part time as both genders, it's straight in my fucking face every day how the world sucks for both men and women.
It's a first world problem, but the world is sick from sexism and it goes both ways.
I will grant you, if I had been a cisgendered woman, I would likely be vastly more well off than I am now. I might even have a family of my own. I say that as a man.
Here ya go.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Not all (few?) trans are SJW, but the seeming majority of SJW compete in an 'Oppression Olympics' where the more 'oppressed groups' they can self-identify (intersectionality, ho!) they can gain more 'oppression points' and thus a higher place in the hierarchy: 'I am more oppressed than you, so my view is more valid'.
Thus was born the 'non-binary gender-fluid, pansexual transracial somethingsomething and a toaster too', fresh off of tumblr.
If you look at them and meet/don't meet their eyes, it was literally rape. And please, never ever ask if they want to have a coffee. That's worse than ISIS.
I don't run Adblock, but I do run with noscript. It doesn't work with that either. No the hell way I'm going to allow a bunch of scripts to read that article.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
slashdot, can we focus on stuff that matters to nerds and dispense with the SJW fridays, please??
Yeah you're right. We should just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist lest our precious little feelings get dented. Oooh us nerds are such special little snowflakes we can't bear to believe that there may be some bad apples among us.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
If you know anyone who might be a victim of this pernicious evil, or who falls into one of the demographics likely to be exploited by it, please make sure that they get a copy of the Survival Guide ASAP.
Ah yes: "American women (mostly) suck". That's the title of the blog you're linking to. Is that because they mostly won't shag you? Is that why they mostly suck?
Do way you're part of the problem automatically dismissing nearly half the problem simply based on gender.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Please don't muddy a good rant about how men are so put upon with actual facts.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Note to anyone reading the parent post:
SJW is basically newspeak for "evil internet bogeyman".
The parent post is now revealed to read "evil internet bogeymen want to make bad things happen".
SJW n. One who posts facts.
So that's what counts has "harassment" in the pro radical feminist society now-a-days. The argument is tired but it doesn't make it less true: If the supervisor was an attractive guy or if she was interested in him, those exact same words would be perfectly acceptable.
The 50's called, they'd like their sexual attitudes back.
Looking at it from both sides made sense, but it doesn't sound yet like you've looked at it from both sides. Isn't it reasonable for women to be able to expect to come to university and study -- to be able to choose a professor to work with on a professional basis -- without having to either a) worry continually that they may fall in love with you, or b) have to switch advisors 2-3 times until you find one that can treat you professionally?
I mean really -- wouldn't you be pissed if you went to work for a company, and after being there 6 months the manager asked you to move to a different department (or to find another job) because they were sexually attracted to you (when you had done nothing but be polite)?
If you are a manager in a company, whether you are male of female, having employees who are both male and female is part of your job. If you are a woman who can't handle having male subordinates without forming an emotional attachment, or a man who can't handle having female subordinates without forming an emotional attachment, then being a manger is not for you.
Same thing with being a professor: mentoring both male and female grad students is a part of your job, just like teaching classes or doing research. If you can mentor students but can't do research, then a normal tenure-track professorship at a Research I institution isn't for you. If you can do research but can't mentor half of the students who come to you, it's not for you either.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
The 'mis' in misogyny and misandry means 'hate'. (See also, 'misanthrope'.) I fail to see how "expecting an average man to be stronger than the average woman" counts as hating women. Shooting up a bunch of random women because nobody will have sex with you is misogyny.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
Have you ever been given unwanted romantic / sexual attention? Or seen it happening? Isn't it uncomfortable? And shouldn't people be able to work without it?
I'm a heterosexual man, and I've got a male coworker who is bisexual, who once when (in a group of coworkers) discussing a particularly smart outfit I was wearing, said "You're making me hot just looking at you." He genuinely meant it as a compliment, but given that we had never had more than a professional relationship, it was inappropriate.
Now he hasn't really made any further comments, so it hasn't been much of an issue (although I am much more circumspect about how I interact with him now). But suppose he said something like that once a month. Or that he kept asking me over to his place or to go see movies 1-1. That would make me pretty uncomfortable -- and I shouldn't have to put up with that at work.
That's not to say you can never ask anyone out at work. It's to say that you should be aware that the other person is unusually constrained. It's not like a party where they can just mingle somewhere else: they're stuck working with you unless one of you finds a new job. You should always be reasonably sure that the question itself will not be unwelcome, even in a merely social situation; at work, the level of "how sure should I be" is higher -- not because of the risk of being fired, but because of how much more constrained the other person is in how they can respond if they're not interested.
Doesn't that make sense? This seems like basic human consideration to me.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
Um, no it wouldn't? If you're forced to throw away your research and start over again because your advisor isn't able to do his job, it sucks no matter what they look like. Even if there were mutual romantic attraction, it's never acceptable for a manager to have a romantic relationship with an employee (or an advisor with a student, for similar reasons). This has nothing to do with the gender of either party.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
Funny my PhD supervisor was a woman and I was actually forced to throw me research away (almost 2 years) and get a better supervisor.
Now, it was not due to harassment but due to her incompetence. But we can already see how the story would play out if the genders were inverted.
I don't know if these people have done anything or not; you might think that people that intelligent would not stoop that low. I will offer this though.
One of the persistent and compelling illusions I had in life was that somewhere, there existed a self-selected group of people for whom a primary concern was to just be decent to each other.
I am not sure where I got this idea from, but if you have it, if you think that *this* group of people united by *this* purpose or POV or goal or whatever is going to be some kind of refuge from Assholedom, then you owe it to yourself before you waste any more of your life looking for such a group to just stop. Put it down and walk away.
My first pursuit of this mythological beast was with a community of artists and counter-cultural types. I thought without jocks or grades or the pursuit of money or even fame people would have nothing but each others fellowship to rely on and that would be a kind of uniting force, or something. How very young and wrong I was .
After some years spent pursuing that ghost, I next chased another another idea I had always had in my head- that academics, university types, were just naturally a cut above in terms of decency and non-aggression. In my imagination they were people to whom the stated ideals of a university- diversity, the pursuit of truth, respect for excellence,
valuing of curiosity and the impartial unbiased pursuit of knowledge - were real living things. The university was THEIR place which abided by THEIR values and stood as a bastion against Assholedom.
So I went to university and I did meet people as described- a couple. And the rest were sort of Super Assholes - people who nourished grudges, pursued revenge via administrative back-channeling and complaint processes, for any perceived slight or offense, advanced themselves through undermining others, sincerely worked to
undermine others simply because they didn't like them, and worked the system as best they could to horde time, reputation, money and power. It was one of the worst
environments I've been in. At one point a recent-hire prof confided in me that "they" - the other professors in the department- "had taken him into a room and gone to town on him for spending time preparing for his classes. If he wanted them to recommend him for tenure, it was going to stop. The gist f it was that there was no reward for teaching,
only for publishing and grant getting- things that brought the university prestige and money. Nothing else mattered and the degree to which nothing else mattered was total. I
asked him who "they" were, exactly, and his reply was "all of them. Every one of them." Of course the teaching is what you'd expect given the above. And that's not even the
worst dirty trick- and that's what it was- I saw there. Not by a long shot .
After that I got it into my head that business, corporation, out of necessity, would be a place where the reality principle reigned supreme. Even if it wasn't friendly per se, at least it would be grounded in some kind of market discipline and that discipline would realize itself in the relations between people within the company.
I know, but in my defense, this was around 2000.
Here's the thing. If it's true, -but then harassment charges are just another arrow in the quiver or these types - this is not surprising , because *that's what people are*. If for some reason that actually doesn't describe you and you know it,then know with certainty: you're on your own There is no *good* group of people united by any property or purpose out there. The best you can hope for is a occasional light from someone you are completely removed from, say whose books you read. If you really want to swing for the wall, the trifecta is your mother, your spouse and your dog. If you can trust all three of those , then know you're luckier than most .
He told her the truth, that he was sexually attracted. I think his is much better than if he had thought of a fake reason for her to leave his courses, e.g. to give her bad grades so that she chooses another department to specialize later on.
We live in a world with the principle that anybody should be able to become nearly anything, independent of how they live, whom they love, how attractive they are or how revealing they clothe.
In the past they said that the university isn't the place for women. We now got to the point to say that this is wrong.
You say that the university isn't the place for men who occasionally fall in love with one of the students of their sexual preference? Isn't that similar thinking to above?
Yes, I do agree that we should close university's doors for people who get emotional with every woman and can't hold it back, but there really should be a reasonable compromise.
:)
"So now the definition of "harassment" in your mind is touching and not just asking someone out or complementing them?" :)
I meant touch, like as in physical contact with his hand, and I suppose what he seems to be saying is that he feared he would not be able to stop touching her once he started, even if she said stop it.
"Good guys that care about feelings these days pretty much have to completely avoid women at work for fear they will I inadvertently do something they will take as "harassment" like smiling at them"
If that is what he really feared then he would have to stop coming into contact with all woman because if he didn't avoid all women then the women he did avoid and who repeatedly noticed it could accuse him harassment.
Things that have only happened in your mind are not data points. :-)
Your model of the universe looks very different than mine; in my model, "advisor forces PhD student to move because of their incompetence" doesn't generally involve sexual harassment lawsuits (which is what you seem to imply), regardless of the gender of the advisor or student, unless some sort of harassment actually took place.
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
You still haven't given me indication that you've tried to look at things from a woman's perspective. As I asked -- wouldn't you be pissed if you went to work for a company, and after being there 6 months the manager asked you to move to a different department (or to find another job) because they were sexually attracted to you (when you had done nothing but be polite)?
So yes, we he have two exclusive options here:
On the whole I think #1 is both more fair and more desirable than #2.
Do note that it's "maintain professional conduct", not "never experience emotional or physical attraction".
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
we agree to disagree.
Jack of all trades,master of none
i wasnt talking about witnesses,wasnt talking about proving a case. when a person that you make any kinda advance too no matter where you are tells you no thanks ,please stop,stop.no and you continue that,s Harassment plain and simple. I wasn't talking about what it wold take to prove the case in a court of law im talking morals.
Jack of all trades,master of none
But it is what I'm talking about. I'm saying there are be circumstances under which "asking someone out" actually is harassment (morally, not legally), and why "there should not normally be a problem" is a reasonable answer from a lawyer: because actions never exist in a vacuum. Most of the time guys only ask a girl out if they've been given social cues to indicate that the answer may be "yes"; some of the time guys are a bit clueless and ask even though they've not been given any cues, or if they've been given "no" cues; but there are circumstances in which a guy asking is just one instance of a pattern of obnoxious behavior.
I can understand why your coworker didn't want to report it to HR. But seriously, that guy was in the wrong. Your coworker managed to deal with the situation (by calling in another guy to help), but she shouldn't have had to deal with it at all. Don't you agree?
TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.
wouldn't you be pissed if you went to work for a company, and after being there 6 months the manager asked you to move to a different department (or to find another job) because they were sexually attracted to you (when you had done nothing but be polite)?
If it there had been situations in the past that were uncomfortable for me as well perhaps I'd agree to it, but if they hid it well enough so that I didn't knew it, I would be suprised at least. The thing of course is that if we worked together for 6 months, then switching might be a setback, so it would cause problems, yes.
If asking female students to switch courses is the exception and not the rule, then I don't think its a problem.
To the options listed by you: Men who can't maintain professional conduct with female students at all shouldn't go to a facility where students get teached, there are other ways they can do research as well. But the question remains what not being able to maintain professional conduct means.
Well, you know what to do next time someone tells you to check your privilege -- by which they mean "shut up, independent white male". That kind of aggression is primarily based on race, sex, and ability.
Saying "Check your privilege" is harassment. Report it. (Unless you're being a jerk, in which case, also re-think what you might be doing to evoke such responses—you are aware of whether you do this or not.)
This is just like when a manager's secretary would frequently tell me (presumably others not of her genetic background), "You're goin' to the back o' the bus." That was harassment, racist in this case. Such racist comments do nothing to help people get along. BTW, I left before reporting, but had reported some other, bigger issue already (whistle-blowing).
Larson knew about this.
They forgot to add:
"harassment, defined as unwelcome conduct that is based on race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, disability or genetic information (unless it's directed against a white heterosexual male, who it's impossible to discriminate against)."
Well, that is only if you are dumb enough to expect HR to do anything about it. They won't. Then, you report to higher authorities (government, the press, etc.) and possibly use the courts. This is one reason that courts exist – to address such issues.
Mostly it seems to be a bunch of guys whining they can't act like ignorant douchebags without consequences.
If by "ignorant douchebags" you mean "like normal humans" than you're pretty much spot on.
One of the astronomers in that list was punished for realizing he had emotional feelings about a student and telling her to go seek another adviser. You know, because men aren't allowed to have emotions. Also, at the same time, are too emotionless compared to women, and that's why diversity is important. In the world according to the SJW.
BS. I've had many female students, or workers I managed, "have feelings for me." Unrequited and uninvited. I just ignore it, and get on with business. They have not gone to seek other managers or advisors.
But I was describing the reverse of your point...
I have also had women above me "have feelings for me." They did not embarrass me by pointing it out and telling me to get lost. I just ignored it, and they behaved themselves (with only a single exception).
Harassment is everything said, done after you have been told No or stop.
"I'm sorry , you haven't done any of the work, I have to fail you for this class."
No. Stop.
Why is this modded up? As "Funny", maybe, but not really even that.
Please explain fully just what you mean. Or are you one of them guys who thinks no really means yes? I ask a women for a date she says no thanks. I ask her the next day she no thanks and please don't ask me again. I would say sorry for having bothered you and move on..YOU...??
Personally, I wouldn't even have asked the second time. It's called respecting boundaries and it leads to less conflicts in the workspace. However, there's a huge (and there should be) gap between social and cultural norms and legally actionable harassment.
I think asking said woman out every single day she comes in to work is incredibly crass, annoying, and makes you look like a pathetic loser. It's not harassment until you imply she may face consequences if she continues to say no. That she'll be fired, looked over for promotion. Or until you physically touch her. Or you start stalking her instead of just taking opportunity of being at the same place at the same time because you both work at the same place at the same time.
The law isn't a way of enforcing etiquette.
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
And pathetic is when you get all upset and overreact because someone makes you feel bad. Grow a pair!
The cunt who tried to destroy Tim Hunt's career wasn't some "evil internet bogeyman", smart-ass.
Read and learn: http://reason.com/archives/201...
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
He told her the truth, that he was sexually attracted. I think his is much better than if he had thought of a fake reason for her to leave his courses, e.g. to give her bad grades so that she chooses another department to specialize later on.
Being sexually attracted to somebody doesn't mean you will automatically harass them or become a douchebag. He should have sucked it up and done his job. OTOH if he felt he was unable to do his job, he should have sought counseling or gotten another job, i.e. the same thing he would have done if he was unable to do his job for any other reason, like a broken back or nervous breakdown or anything else.
Being sexually attracted to somebody doesn't mean you will automatically harass them or become a douchebag.
And he didn't want to become one. Is that illegal?
i wasnt talking about witnesses,wasnt talking about proving a case. when a person that you make any kinda advance too no matter where you are tells you no thanks ,please stop,stop.no and you continue that,s Harassment plain and simple. I wasn't talking about what it wold take to prove the case in a court of law im talking morals.
Define Morals.
What I'm saying is we are now entering a different age, where the act of asking once is what constitutes harassment. And witnesses aren't necessarily need for a civil court case. They might be handy in responding to HR if someone decides that you asking her out once constitutes harassment. And yes, there are those out there who believe just that.
Which is my point. We are entering an age where your definition is irrelevant.
Which is why, unless cooler heads prevail, third wave sex negative feminists might find themselves an unexpected ally in fundamentalist islam. where women are separated from men, because anything related to sex, or anything determined to be related to sex becomes something so damaging to the offended party that there is no recourse but separation from men.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Own your feelings. No one makes you feel anything. Realize your feelings are only important to you, and don't expect strangers or co-workers to care about them. It's not about your feelings.
Someone acting unprofessionally in a professional workplace, in concrete ways you can document? You might have something. Someone making your job vaguely unpleasant? Work sucks for most people, get used to it. If you've never had a job where you sit in the parking lot, crying, for half an hour before you can summon the courage to go in, but you do because your family needs the money and it's the only job in town, you're doing OK.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
Well, if there was a compromise, I'd say it would be the professor recusing himself from the course with all the long-term career damage caused by the incident accruing to the professor, not the student.
But the reality is pretty damn simple.
We expect people in power to be able to maintain professional conduct in *all* circumstances, regardless of their personal feelings.
The punishment for failing to do so tends to vary heavily by its consequences on others. Someone makes you angry and you slug them? Very bad. Someone makes you uncomfortable, and you fail them or make drop a course, affecting their academic career (and quite possibly their long-term career aspirations)? Pretty bad. Someone bursts into tears in the front of the lecture hall because some personal trauma? Pretty awkward, but probably not causing long-term difficulty for the students, so not so bad.
That doesn't make use of the phrase "SJW" less of an indicator of an idiot though. It's a handy standin for evil boogeymen on the internet.
Intellectually dishonest people such as yourself also love it because it allows the rhetorical trick of rapidly switching between the general and the specific but without having to specifying anything in advance that you might be held to.
The people you and others are referring to in this article are not the people who ruined his career. But you have essentially said they are without the slightest shred of evidence. But then again I guess evidence and reason are not the strong points of someone who uses the phrase "SJW" without irony.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Exactly. Everybody on both sites knows I tend to have an active love life. I even fell for one of the students I was mentoring, which surprised me because normally I'm not attracted to women. It didn't change a fucking thing. I don't know what's up with this adviser who couldn't keep it in his pants, but I guess I don't find it difficult.
If I want to date somebody, I'll date them. Wanting is a question of a.) what will happen to them if I date them (I've had to turn dates down on this ground) b.) what will happen to me if I date them (generally lightly considered lol) c.) what will happen to us if I date them. #c is more complex. d.) what will happen to people around us if I date them.
If I have a professional relationship with somebody I've fallen for, then dating is out of the question. It's that damned simple.
Pedantically, you're correct. This gets down to the usage of the term hate. It also aligns with usage of the term fear.
For example, I've encountered what they call transphobia. Is it a fear? Is it hate? I'd argue that based on the physical intimidation I've witnessed against trans women who don't "pass" so well, that it's hate and the desire to destroy. (This is a big part of the reason I'm wondering whether I need a concealed revolver on me at all times.) At any rate, it's completely irrational.
(All though, my desire to be able to disable somebody who has become physically violent against somebody I care about because s/he thought that person was trying to make Christmas illegal is a rational response to the growing problem of irrationality and desire for violence.)
Fear and hate are greatly intertwined. We fear losing something we have, so we hate what we perceive is stealing it from us.
So, for the construction of misandry and misogyny, we have to keep this in mind. What will that woman lose if I tell her to lift it herself, because she's physically stronger than me? She'll lose her femininity. What will that man lose if I tell him that I'm damned capable myself to carry the thing? He'll lose his masculinity.
Therefore, we introduce hate to describe the reaction when I do either. If that woman hears, "No, I'm not going to fucking carry that for you, because reasons" (certainly not what I said), then she will hate me for taking away a thing that's valuable to her. If that man hears, "No, I'm going to fucking carry that myself, because reasons" (certainly not what I said), then he will hate me for taking away a thing that's valuable to him.
These are all nebulous concepts. You may call me feministphobic now.
To get to your point: the insidious nature of internalized misogyny is that she hates. She hates the idea that somebody might masculinize her. What does masculinization mean? In the misguided sense that leads to internalized misogyny, it means that by being good at maths, programming, science, etc, that she would be masculinized and lose her identity as a woman.
Hi, serviscope!
I've encountered the "SJW" phenomenon in real life multiple times. SJW is a poor term to describe this phenomenon of "two wrongs make a right" thinking.
Basically, it boils down to an application of another loaded term reverse discrimination.
I've said before that one of the reasons I'm at cold war with feminism at the moment is because I like to eat and have a roof over my head, I've been involved in various situations that appear to a naive observer to constitute hatred of women on my part.
"I've" "shut down" a women's health initiative, thus "I want to control women's bodies." I mean, WTF. I did the maths with cisgendered women at my company attempting to mislead me even to get the greatest number of women mammograms despite a shrinking budget and Obamacare obviating the program. Yet I'm blamed for ending it, because I'm the convenient person who was assigned the male gender at birth that said that we couldn't provide the number of mammograms that Susan G. Komen wanted with the presented budget. It simply wasn't financially possible. The program ended, in budget, and I get blamed for things beyond my control by sexists.
"I'm" responsible for the sexual harassment (is there an anti-scare quote I can use? this was a very serious incident, and personally i'd like to have the balls of the man responsible for it mounted above my fireplace) of a bright young woman who was becoming an excellent programmer. Why? I'm the convenient assigned male who was involved. I didn't sexually harass her. A-- H-- did, and he drove her out of her position as backup programmer as retaliation when I reported his sexual harassment. Yet, I'm to blame, because I'm all men.
"I'm" responsible for a piece of shit software made my Amtelco, out of Wisconsin, and all its stupid fucking bugs and O(n^3) algorithms. That's because I'm the convenient assigned male who wanted to eat and have a roof over her head and perhaps progress in transition to full time.
Thus, the cold war with feminism. The "SJWs" exist. They're out there. And they Always. Miss. The. Fucking. Target.
I can understand why your coworker didn't want to report it to HR. But seriously, that guy was in the wrong. Your coworker managed to deal with the situation (by calling in another guy to help), but she shouldn't have had to deal with it at all. Don't you agree?
Of course she didn't deserve any of that treatment. No one should be doing that sort of crap, and I am quite sensitive to men taking liberties in the workplace, I just note that we have to be careful what we do, because we might not like what we get.
There are many voices out there. We can choose who we listen to Seldom are the extreme voices appropriate.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Er... that's not a Freudian slip.
Of course, all things gender and sexuality become confused with my current absurd situation. I am attracted to men, and I have a female mind and soul and a male reproductive system. Thus, I, from time to time, become attracted to men I know through my roles obtained by playing the feminist game and presenting as male for business purposes.
Yes, it was a "homosexual" attraction I felt. I think perhaps that the reason I felt creeped out is that I was running my male simulation program one might say. That program is not sufficient to install in me male sexuality. Thus, the conflict.
(Why am I at cold war with feminism? Ask them. I don't know. I don't even fucking understand it. They're the ones who called me and every other trans woman out there a rapist and an impostor, and they're the ones who mesmerized the rest of you into believing their lies with economic consequences for anyone with a clitoris two millimeters too big. Why are lesbians screaming at my friends in public that they're not real women because their breasts aren't large enough and because they've been poisoned by testosterone? I don't fucking know. We should be allies, but they've declared war with you as an ally and there's nothing else to do.)
Please ask me to have a coffee with you some time. All though, I might prefer a green tea, so I hope you won't be offended at that. As far as coffee goes, I prefer Colombian beans.
Please also note the low rank of trans women in the Oppression Olympics.
Consider Brianna Wu. In order for her victimization skit to work, she had to reject her nature as a trans person who has lived as both genders.
We hate trans women. It doesn't matter if you're an MRA or a feminist, we fucking hate trans women and want them to die.
Thus was born the 'non-binary gender-fluid, pansexual transracial somethingsomething and a toaster too', fresh off of tumblr.
Your problem is that you're reading tumblr. Remember when /b used to be good?
Please also note the status of otherkin being in the Special Oppression Olympics. That's not to diss the real Special Olympics. I enjoy a healthy and capable body, and if I weren't busy drinking myself to death, I'd probably be training to compete in the Iron Mountain (100 mile) Marathon. I really do feel for those who have disabilities. I wish they could run like the wind with me. Perhaps in the Summerland.
I get the threat from "SJWs." I want to ally to crush them, because they are morally and ethically deleterious. Yet, because I'm trans, you've already targeted me as an assassination target in the war with SJWs.
Warning: any Michigan Militia who sets foot on my property, despite the fact that I stand for what you stand for and want a revolution, will be fatally shot on sight. This is the nature of war. War never changes. You've declared war on me. It's a cold war at the moment, but I wasn't born yesterday. I hate that I am at war with you. Yet, you declared it, and my reaction is necessary to ensure the safety of those I care about.
Intellectually dishonest people such as yourself
Fuck you, snowflake.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
It's like creating problems where there are none
It was the first search result that included the material and didn't spoil the punchline in the URL preview. I've never read that site beyond making sure the page I linked was what I expected.
Oh, and the "American women suck" meme is most commonly heard from the PUA community, generally from guys with hundreds of notches. I'm sure the site's owner, or any random PUA, can fill you in on the details.
See that "Preview" button?
Fuck you, snowflake.
Hahaha. Wow touchy! The nutjob doth protest too much!
-Ed
SJW n. One who posts facts.
It was the first search result that included the material and didn't spoil the punchline in the URL preview. I've never read that site beyond making sure the page I linked was what I expected.
It was a huge banner image across the top of the page you linked to.
Oh, and the "American women suck" meme is most commonly heard from the PUA community, generally from guys with hundreds of notches. I'm sure the site's owner, or any random PUA, can fill you in on the details.
Hard to follow your reasoning there. Are you saying it's reasonable to dismiss the half the population just based on gender because the people in question have had sex with lots of women? That's kind of implies that you think that whether or not you can have sex with them has some bearing on whether they suck (presumably as people).
Either way that kind of reasoning is indicative of some extremely broken thought processes
SJW n. One who posts facts.
You missed something important.
Read the article. That is the part of the webpage below the banner. Then go back to my first post, and ask yourself which harassment I'm concerned with. With that in mind, ponder how likely I am to be triggered by "zomg! sexism!".
See that "Preview" button?
You missed something important.
Reprinted with permission of Vox Day.
You're right, I did miss something important. It's far worse than I originally imagined.
Read the article.
The first two lines are enough to know I have no need or desire to read further.
If you're linking to that without irony, frankly something is wring in your head because you have lost all ability to reason and be objective.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
What kind of response do you expect to a gratuitous insult? Did you think I'd give you a participation trophy? Fuck you for calling me a liar.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Guess we will be reading about guys like you more often then. You think its only harassment after shes been sexually blackmailed??wow just wow. I dare you to say what you printed here to your mom.
Jack of all trades,master of none
If I tell you to leave me alone and you fail to do so, I'm not harassing you?
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
I showed it to her, she agrees with me 100%. Also, not just blackmail. Unwelcome physical contact, or anything that would make a woman *reasonably* feel unsafe, like stalking was also mentioned in that post.
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
The nutjob doth protest even more! So very very touchy!
Did you think I'd give you a participation trophy?
You already did :) :) :)
Fuck you for calling me a liar.
I didn't call you a liar, I called you intellectually dishonest. It's quite possible that you're being intellectually dishonest in good faith---i.e. you have no awareness that you're using empty rhetorical tricks rather than reason. So, liar would be the wrong word.
I gave my reasons for why. I like how you ignored then, then accused me of doing something I never did, then got very, very cross about it. By the way, that's another intellectually dishonest trick: misunderstand, then get "offended".
By the way do you often try to use weaponised offence?, and isn't that exactly the sort of thing you accuse evil pedoterroristboogeymen er, I mean "SJWs" of doing?
Do you appreciate the irony?
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Was not intended to be funny. I was attempting to point out that under those criteria, practically anything with which the subject disagrees could be defined as harassment.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
lol,ok....
Jack of all trades,master of none
The SJW ideology defines harassment as something that can only can happen to them, never caused by them.
If there are universities that reject the SJW ideology, let them thrive, and all others fail.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
This is pretty much the same as gamergate.
Just couldn't resist turning this around to Gamergate, could you? Well, that didn't take long!
Well at least this time it was appropriate, since we're talking about SJWs. GamerGate was was the greatest collision of SJWs and anti-SJWs ever.
I didn't call you a liar, I called you intellectually dishonest.
What a thoroughly weasely excuse. Are you a lawyer, or a less specialized asshole?
Fuck you, and the bitch that whelped you, too.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
If that comment bothered you at all then you are pathetic. If it was a constant campaign that lasted for weeks or months after you asked them to stop, then you have a right to be offended by it. Not until then. That goes for men and women, quit being pansy-assed little bitches who are perpetually offended that someone who you are not interested in finds you attractive.
And that is why everything is a damn minefield when dealing with women. When they are mad about something it doesn't matter what you say or do, you are saying or doing the wrong thing, even if you say and do nothing.
The treatment of men and women in Islam is the conclusion of radical feminist ideals https://youtu.be/5eqYEVYZgdo
The vast majority of so called "sexual harassment" endured by women in the workplace would make a man the laughing stock of the company if he reported it.
How about we as a species decide that if it wouldn't be harassment if done to a man then it isn't harassment when done to a woman?
Equality is the only answer.